HomeMy WebLinkAbout2008-02-28TOWN OF DRYDEN
Planning Board
February 28, 2008
Mcmbers Present: Barbara CJdwel1, Chair; Term .Hatfield; David Weinstein; Joseph LagUatra.
Jr,; Joseph LaIIey; Martin 1-Iatch,
Excused, Megan Whitrii4n,
(lthers Present: Mary Ann Sumner, Town Supervisor; Henry Slater, Code Lnfomcment Officer;
Pattv Millard. Recording Secreary,
Agenda.
Proposed Official Town of Dryden Map
Update Oriole Drive Subdivision
Sewer Capacity
13 ig Box iii atei-ial fi-oin Dan
Behan Associates:
Updated Draft Residential Guidelines
Phase I Zoning; Recoininendstions
Discussion of Public IndoMmcnt
Phase 2 Zon -1ng Re comn3endadons
Next Steps
Meeting called to order at 7:00
Proposed Orlicial Town of Dry(len Nlap — Renry Slater
We don't have an cf'i'l6 i1, adop(ed, Town of'Dryden rnap.
T Hatfield — IIin puzzled vihy w�j're .Angling out mobile home parks-
Hv,nr }+ later' — that's Lust somctllI �e added In there. There's no spe01 fie rel son r
J Lallev - There's a legend at the botton7 of the page [:or mobile honjes- i think, in general, it
Iooks great, but 1 would reccniniend th'�Lt We not iclentiFv mobile horse l)�irks because use don't
idcntif 1 any other kind o'[''housing,
D Weinstein `l he thing ]33 ctra-rect mo ifi'm wrong; the in obi le home parks have road networks
that are not Town road networks.
J Lai[ey — I would go to the trotLble then of displaying the road networks, perhaps in a different
c'.olc 1-1 to identify the fact that they're private roads, anti you do have a color For private roads.
1 S urn ner — Do inobI Ie. 1)ome parks got some kind trl' special consideration iii emergency
planning? Would that be oile reason For iclenti fyi1�g them?
H SIater — Official Iy, no, Rut if you're go1rig Co have an official n1ap, it's good 1:or enicr ency
responders to knolov where they are, that'L, for sure.
111102-28-2008
Page 2 of 17
J LalleY — Well, why wouldn't they want to know where Harwood }load Subdivision is?
H Slater — Because Harwood Road Subdivision is a mapped road that there's a directory that you
can go to and look up and see who lives where on that road. There is no directory for the mobile
home parks and I'll point out there's no directory for multi - family housing units either. °1`hey can
be removed. 'that's not a problem. That's up to your recommendation and the Town Board. I'm
just here to present what we did and ask for feedback.
B Caldwell — Speaking of that, we know that there are many little private roads but there are no
names with them, like Snyder Heights.
H Slater — OK. That's a private road; and it should be on there. That's one I missed when I
reviewed it. We'll add that,
M Hatch — Do you think you want to put on Community Centers'?
J Lalley — I'd rather have them than the mobile home parks.
H Slater — We'll consider any reconurnendation.
J Laquatra —There are some that are missing, toil, because there's one on Lower Creek Road.
The term mobile home park is wrong and the industry would really jump on you for that. The
term is manufactured housing.
D Weinstein — Is there any reason to show roads that have been abandoned?
H Slater — If they're a seasonal use road, they're on there, but if they're
Tale the map home; take a look at it; let me know if you have anything
We don't have an Official Town Map at this point, so there's no hurry.
home and review them and let me know .what your thoughts are.
B Caldwell — Would it be feasible to put in the names of the private roa
abandoned, they're not,
missing or wrong, etc.
If you could take them
ds'?
D Weinstein — Looking at the Varna Park, I'm not sure where you'd fit it all.
H Slater — We can try. I suppose the answer to that is that if you're going to label one, you
should label them all, or if you're not going to label them all, you should label none.
M Sumner — We should shoot for consistency in the orientation of the street names.
1-1 Slater — It may be a function that we can't change, but I'll loot: in to that. Dan apologizes for
his lack of being, here. it could not be helped,
0 M Hatch — What about what you sent around to us'?
B Caldwell — Have you heard anything further'?
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H Slater — Larry thinks he is right in regards to the Oriole Drive Subdivision boundaries. There
are approximately 700 units, and maybe MaryAnn can add to this, sewer units available because
of the Cayuga Heights plant bypass line that comes out of the Village of Lansing that used to
formally run through the Cayuga heights plant. It now goes directly to the Ithaca Area Waste
Water Treatment Plant, of which the Town is an owner, and with the Village of Lansing not
being an owner, the Town should be entitled to sonic of these units. And I was right, there are 7
total units available to the Town of Dryden right now off Sapsucker Woods, which is not going
to address this particular project. Each single family dwelling is equal to 1 sewer unit use.
Industrially it varies depending on what the use is with a car wash getting 6 or 7 units and an
office building might get half a unit. We're going to have a meeting to pump up Mary Ann to ge
fight for units for the "town of Dryden.
D Weinstein — You said a household is 1 sewer unit. A lot of those houses on Cardinal Drive are
2 family.
H Slater — Right. So they take 2 units. It's one per family. l believe Mary Ann is meeting with
Larry next week, He has some ideas about how to go about this because Larry was a City of
Ithaca engineer for a long time. He actually was involved in the building of the sewer plant and
o course it's in his best interest to help the town because his client wants sonic uni
of-'course
0 M Sumner — He's also a Town of Dryden resident.
T Hatfield — It seems like a pretty compatible concept and it wouldn't hurt the Town of Dryden
taxpayers either.
H Slater — The ToNvn owns 2% of the sewer plant. Cayuga Heights doesn't own any, the Village
of Lansing doesn't own any, and the two majority owners are the 'town of Ithaca and the City of
lthaca, and we're this little minority owner. But nevertheless, we're an owner, and we should
have some rights since we help to pay the bills, to sonic of that usage.
M Sumner — If nothing else, we have a vote and they don't.
H Slater — That's right. They don't have a vote and we do. They have sonic big project coming
up that's kind of quiet and they want all of them because they paid for the bypass. That's the
Village of Lansing's thinking. They paid 5125,000 to put that bypass in. My guess is they put it
in because Cayuga 1-lei0hts said; no, you can't ship anymore wastewater so they bypassed it.
D Weinstein — So, those 7 units, that's just for the sewer line that goes through Cayuga Heights,
It's not for all of Dryden.
H Slater — Right. That's just for the waste that goes through the Cayuga Heights plant. If we
were going to be developing in downtown Varna, no big deal. All tile capacity we want.
® T Hatfield — And it would go to the IA��I %��l�T plant'?
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Page 4 of 17
• H Slater — Yes.
T Hatfield — Do we have any capacity issues there at all?
H Slater — None that I'm aware of. I think it was built with the future in mind.
T Hatfield — In a decade or so, is there an issue that needs to be in long -term planning? Current
growth, concentration and densities needs to deal with that issue.
H Slater — I'm not aware of any, but I'll be sure to ask that question.
D Weinstein — Every time I've asked about that, the answer has always been that there's more
than enough capacity for future expansion. When they put in the new pressure pump station, they
upped the capacity.
T Hatfield — This particular one is going to Cayuga Heights because it's convenient, right?
D Weinstein — ]There is no connection elsewhere.
H Slater — You would have to form a new district il'you wanted to link up with Varna.
•T I- latfield — That's what I was wondering. I -low far away are we and is that a possibility if we
can't link in to Cayuga Heights?
H Slater — Well, Larry said he Nwanted to develop an industrial area. Through working with
Millers, they've already said if that happened, it would make more sense to run the flow back to
Monkey Run, because you have to have a pump station. Gravity flow won't work in that area. 1
can see, however, for 16 units, the man wouldn't .want to spend the money for the infrastructure
way over here. Maybe for 100, it would be a different story. And besides that, Oriole Drive
would have to be pump stationed up and over and be pump stationed as opposed to gravity feed
going this way (to Cayuga Heights).
T Hatfield — So if there are 7 available and he needs 16, lie's not that far away. It-you take 2 %, of
700, isn't that 14?
Cross talk
L-I Slater —There
Phase 1 and 2, i f
enough. I don't I;
wastewater from
wouldn't be
they were to
elieve Larry
that area. III
enough for Phase I of the Oriole Drive Subdivision, let alone
do two - (amity homes. if they did _just single family, there might be
intends to come back until he knows that he can get rid of the
I keep you posted.
Big Box handout
is Nt 1-latch — At a meeting, Dan had said there were some inquiries to the Town Board regarding
}3ig Box for Route 13. He said that we might be talking about it here. So I brought it up to
Barbara as a possible thing to talk about, and then Dan wrote a letter saying that there's no rush,
Pit 02-28 -2008
Page 5,01' 17
but lie's putting together some infi)rmahon for us an for the Town Board. His point to nle was
that the Planning Board should have this information in our master plan. if our current zoning
code is who IIy insufficient (lit this area) and vyre need to think about how to rnake It suH'idtilt.
M Sumner — Dan d-Ld mention it in passing during the Town Board meeting and people were
eager to get it to the Planning Board. l was going to wait until mxt month so that i had
something more concrete to say about it. A realtor carne to talk to us about the possibil its of a
Big 13ox &lore at the former of Lm er Creek Road and Route 13. A type of big box store that we
might not wholly mind- 1'1rt not nets about big box stores; but I'm supposed to keep an open
mind about this, They were feeling us out about it- Seeing if we v ere going to merely throw road
blocks up, in which case they weren't even going to try it, if we had a set of regulations in place
in advance that they knew whe[her or not they could work with, we'd have a better way to
negotiate. 1 was a the Association of `Downs ntioeting last week and talk to somebody about
regulating franchise architecture; which I thought was Fin interesting concept too. Dan's
absolutely right. We should get on top of (his bcfol`c it's tiro late.
8 Caldwell — We, might want to look at the proposed Commercicl.l Guidcli.nes this in mind,
M tnriner — Dan lead a link to a fast- inating web site called Big Boy, Ev+ luator and we tried
till ei ing with all the variables and tried making it look like it would pay off for us, and he
couldn't make it look like it paid. That would be one approach to making regulal.iorrs.
J Laquatra— One of the larginr issues is that the corntar oCLower Creek Road and R.oute 13 is not
retail colnlnercial area in the master plan-
H Slater — Neither is the L41CTnte property'- Thera winre things abort that map i think a lot of
people weren't particu.Iarly thrilled zbout. but in the interest o1 :9 ill oving forward and the fact that
it's a living docurneatt and could be adjusted later on, we accepted curtain things, T did will this
battle- (The protection of the agricultUraI I�rmIand just o tits ide the Village.)
AEI Hatch � .This doesn't irivolye that typical scenario where tax credits are given in order to come
in-
M Surnner— Were not goilig af#erthcmI They're coming here and hoping wir vicn't make it too
diiTic LlIt for them, They're not expecting an }+ breaks.
D Weinstein — What we should do is express to them that we have. a plan that calls for that area
to not be a commercial area. to actually be a coil seiNation area because c felt it g as important
to have a break botween Elie. deveIoprnerit further 1vast on Route 13 and the development: that
would happen at l YSE.G.
J Laquatra — And then not have that area turn in to strip malls.
M Sumner — That's a separate discussion; but about this particular project; absolutely, The larger
issue is that iFwe had big box regulations in place —other people are going to be close behind
this guy. Apparently Southwest development in the Ithaca. arrea is getting too expenstve and they
PB 02m2S=2QUS
Vavh6 of 17
are looking for other locations_
H Slater — I think what Date intends to do is give VOLI some modus to look at_
F1 =h —And it'll be in the context ofcoirtmerc91 aI guidelines (ha we're working can UIready.
M Sumner— o it should be high on our minds Fc)r next month, but we don't need to der anything
tonight.
B Caldwell — You'll keep us posted_
Sumner Yes, There w, as a third thing that came up, 1 think 11. was Marty, and VOLL said you
wire- interested in having the Town look at prime Iocatiu1is for co inm tin Icatioil Lowers or wood
to avers?
M Hatch - TWO t 111 11gs. Planning decisions that would help make broadband town wide, and
second was (o identify areas here energy production fuels for4griculture would be most
propitious. 1 think we talked a little about not just going; the next step which 1s not only
identifying food agricultural type unintellibible) but also including sonic kind of promoting c�P
alternative energy fuels and chinas of that nature_ 'Chat's a little bit farther along than the
hroadband.
J Laquatra— Th at's %vhy ytau have the packet Patty just liaiided around.
Sumner —We've applied -FOr a grant — we've partnered with a local I P provider to target one
ofthcse universal broadband grants that SpImr's touting, We should find otlt by the end ofthc
molith,
M Hach — The last thing was municipal power. Identifying sites where alternative clicrgy
njuntctpal power sites court help provide town wide po���er. it's been successful eIsewhere iii t]ie
County and we could get a little more proaetIve, about that.
M S tiinner -1'm �rvork1ng on som(a,thing for the To�vii Board to consider to charge the P[arming
Board with_
J Behan —There is a lot o("material. If you wouIdn't mind holding questions until the end; I think
we can get to the end more quickly and than have time for discusw)n. (John handed out an
updated copy of the Draft Residential Guidelines. j We took your feedback and edited the
9ULdeIines_ We also rnadc the (bi -mut Ps irn tar to the Commercial { iuidclines so that they would
match. We made them a little a re consistent, took ota a little redundancy that we found when
going over them aeaiti,
Sc;e Presentation for deiails_
PB 02 -2R -2008
Page l of 17
We're l commendin{7 the. town encoura e�'yrivate roads by 11 av111 the Ie[�al mechanisms in Iace
to u- corllmodat�e thct�l. It's %jery common throughout the state. We've had a lot of experience
with them,
Sumner— Actua.Ily, weiust updated dic 141gh *1ay Specifications to make 1t casler for
developers to build a road 4nd turn it over to the town,
14 $later —1'll get you a copy ol.' the in
Under Phase 2 Recommendations.
Change Affordable Housing to Workforc-e Housing,
J Behan —The State of ermont passed a law that does not allow any rnitnicift4lity to prohibit
conversion into Incessant in -law apartments.
LILSTION, AN WEAR & DISCUSSION
J Ljcquatra— INIFHB has ureen building �tiideIilles - Participants— do yore have To ion plcins 1
ortlaiid Builders and Rer1i ode lers involved? Yes.) OK. So you have LEAD specified, but they
consider that to be high end. W hiC'11 I is. It's not really for mainstream btLiIdings. So thclre's the
NE113 green building guidelines, If you could 1riention that as well.
1 1 I latch —Could you give an mirnple of what's d11uwd ill the L19AD?
J Laq>_Iatra � I wouIdn't say it's diluted. The process 1 s more streamlined, The fees are I owe r. I
haven't ci,one through the process. They have rnore options than LEAD.
J L211 ley — Dn your cash flow analysis, ono thing you may wish to explore, particularly when you
get to the. farm type thing. by oponIng tip Irlore Iand, there's the notion o f a eoiiservation
easement. This is a Lax flow that can flow to the seller- Tt call actually be. split be ween the seller
and the buyer If you sell Of the development 1-ights to somethIii Li II1�e the PingerlAes Land
TrusL; iF the seller does that at the tilnc f transiition. arse of the things that can happen is it ends
up being a lower sale price, but the net to the sellea- 1s ctua ly greater by doing it that way. So
it's an incentive to get the land inl.o a conservation easement. It alight not change the cash vaILLe�,
but it preserves that as open space.
J' Laquatra — That happens at the tilnc of stLle?
-1 Laney — Yes- You have to work. wilth your tax consultant to do that, bUt it's something worth
me-ii Lion ing lit terms of structuring Lhe deal. It makes it more al'['0r&ble for the buyer, the seller is
just 4is happy,
Sumner —Can we do solvethino like that with transfer of development rights?
I LaIIcy — The way this happens, the ugfi, it doesn't cost the town anything- DISCLl3SIQn Cli' an
example of a donation o C property which was a tax deductible donation that didn't cost local tax
payers that �LIIowed as high of a net Per the sel ler, a Iower purchase price for the buyer. and no
YB 02 -2R -:008
page S of 17
cost to the local 110 unicipecdIty- Essentially the IRS purchased the development rights by way of a
lax deduction that %v is allowed.
T f- fatficld — On the pro Forma, I Would intereStMg to see lio your net present Va,ues work out
if YOU use a common tune frame instead o F a diffea-ent span of years for each. That's what you're
croirlg to got iii terns ofpub[ie food back.. 7']ley're not going to fant to Cie ill to the assumptions
laid out here-
B Caldwell — You iriade a statement to the effect there without ducuinen #a #ion or referral about
the desirability on the part of the buyer to buy in to these more dense situations. It may be true,
but It play not be the mind Set of the people whe €kri' marketing- I think it would be helpful to
have something to hack that up.
J Uiquatra — There arc some case smdies. There's a developer in the Midwest who puts together
conservation subd1v1siuns a nd other fortes ofcluster development and markets it �is, "You're
bul'lllb a quarter or a half of an acre, but you have access to A (or whwever's ill there) -" He's
finding that those houses sell at a 1311/o pre -mium.
Wliittaker -1 think I mentiorled that in the information I sent to you. There was a rel-�rence to
that article-
J Behan — I think you're righC. YoLGr i mmediate pci ccption is, i've got my scetion and that's it,
But in essence, it's tied to the valuc of the neighborhood and the town, etc -
1D NVeinsteln — You're talking about actually incorpol`ating in to the guidelines this scenario
cal��Glalion,
J Behan — No, we just use that as part of the e]lViron Tlental imevic�3,•, the areal }Psis that we've done -
We ��ouldn't put that in the guidelines, I Wotilclll't think,
D Wcinstein — Yo ti made a statement to people- You °re trying to say to people, look, they're
egLl iI values for these other options, Why wouIdn't yo u �Aant to cotnmunica #e that?
I' H r infield —1 don't know that %N�e'd want them in the guidelines, but it wouldn't htirt to have an
appendix with it in there- I think it's especially pertinealt i l' we're using these as guidelines for
developers who come in. II' wve want to Start IcokIllg at the world a IICtle differently, we have to
start giving tlle]Tl some iinpct4ls as to how �md why to look at things a little differently. By taking
the calcula(Loilis and use the same tut3e span so that it's a little more uniform, it gives a good
example for the developer to look at turd lie can sce whero he'd be adding value and not losing
arlyt ll l n g-
B Ca[dweI I — P])es4linably, you helve f gored these scenarios on the basis of a pri vote road. `f'he
guidelines r Fo private roads or any drive way even over a cemin Iength require certain standards,
0 V
Right, Henry?
PB 02 -28-2008
Page 9 of 17
11 Slater — If you are located more than 200 feet off a pub I I hi ghway, for emergency response
purposes, you have to be able to handle an emergc�nc }+ vehicle. I t has to be. able to handle a ] 0-
wheel truck. There has to be all aria at the end of the driveway or private road for an emergency
vehicle to be able to tLITI, around. The first department replaces inore mirrors and windows from
backing out o.lj'p]aces that they had to dnve. in to that were too narrow to get out of, IfVou're
wiihin the 200 feel, we don't care � hat you do because they're going to respond from the road.
200 feet is an easily covered distance %vith a hose or a stretcher. If it's a private road or long
drive }vay, it could be expensive to construct.
B Caldwell —This is ,what 1 wandered in terms o the numbers being put -Ln [or c-�llc4ilations.
Whother the quality of the road that you require for a private roan, the costs are figured in there.
J Behan — We have some generalized costs that aEjiect reduce standards 161- private vs. public
road,
H Dater — There's no requirement to pave or surface it. It j ust has to stand up to the we ight o f �1.
vehicle mentioned and be able to turn around.
J Behan � ] think. %ve. have two different numbers we uSe —one for private drive ;Rays and we
assume a certain amount is free. The longer driveways. we added that in_
C Whittaker— It's a square footage — ], alrlount ]per ]hear foot in all 3 - arioS_
Hatch — Question about the retained equity on these three scenarios, 'You have the land owner
reta ininc 17 acres in the agrict Iwral scenario with the hotrlestead. I'm just curious, do dcve lope rs
think ofthemsely" a havi�ig homesteads? And how %V<)LLId one. handle retained equity once all
the ho>isln lets are sold off? I'm very much in Nvor of that idea, it's just curious to me. That's
not common land you're talking about, it's retained equity.
J Behan — it's ) %%,I itten from the owner's perspective. They've retained that. They can also sell it.
'M Hatch — Arid iftlley sold it, that would also be developable?
J Behan — No. It would be that lot_ They would keep it or they would sell AN
Hatch — Wha would it be for`?
J Behan — I this case, Chat's where they live w) . TIZey can continue to IIVe t]Zere or rat.
Hatch � So the - 5875,000 includes $426,000 of1)aained egtuty.
C Whittaker — Yep, You. have the ] 7 acres, plus the b1LI Idings that are on that propercy, and the
I!7 share of:. the other 108 Acres.
Pia 02 -28 -2008
Page 10 or 17
D Weinstcirn � I'd like to hear more about hi ncentive zoning. [
� $ 1 g don't know It it means you
have Borne very restrictive, a set of." kirm zones, and the guidelines associated with those; but that
somehow the Planning Board would have leeway to change the rules?
J Behan —No. The Town Board, Let me give you an example. Jefferson Road in Pittsford. when
you drove dowel that road, and there's a beautiful old storage, barn with this for sale sign on it and
behind it is 40 acres offie�ld, tta�:hed to #hat is another little 10 acres parcel across the road.
And wheli you drive by it. somebocly spray painted on the l�or Sa]e sign, "Leave it alone -" It was
zoned for, it had water and sever available. suburban, residential development. I think you could
plat 50 or 60 houses on it. As a gateway parcel to the town's place, because there's an open space
element. and they %veren't really excitcd about clove IopIng 1t, so a developer cantle b y who
wanted zo put a senior housing / extended care project somewhere in the neighborhood, They
found that property. Essentially we had said in zoning that the developer agreed to leave: that
parcel alone, jtist IIke someone had spray pa1rlted. and kepi it open — that 40 ncres � and kepi
leasing it to the farmer who had been leasing it to grow corn. And he taut hip 150 unit extended
care facility worth like S 10 million, all on the 10 acres with a IIt11e pond around it and
everything, which you co u lcln1t do- It was multi- family, attached housing; real I n
itensive use
�VLth e�riplo ees coming and going, etc. So essentially the Town Board rezoned that property to
allow- that use. They dot that 40 acres of open ]an([, W11ICh is probably worth. Just as it Is wiThout
any thing, aroilnd $] million I'or nothing ) ithout paying for it by being willing 1.0 consider this
alternate plan as an incentive. 1 e called i #open space roving �Vherl We wrote it. That ��as the
deal, The amenity was that was left a]one. that b i g 40 acre property. They were allowed to build
this much more intensive use on the 10 acres, if they had just gone by what the town zoning laws
allowed, the }� would have put up 50 houses. That's amenity incentive, You essentially write it for
what you want to achieve in the liawn, It's typically set up as a review process- Ideally, you have
soine places you cm idel�tI where you want certain things to happen. Like if the town knew it
wanted certain things on certain sites or in certain areas; or ideas that you want (t) guide people
towards, or arnciiiticws that you %vast to sec happen, then ytau can be responsive. It's a little open —
ended and yoei might limit it.
T Hatfield — Has this been tested? It sounds an awful lot I Ik< a Iccia] way to do spot zoning -
Every once in a W11Ile, that issue of spat zoning rears Its head around here. Yet liloentiVe Zoning
seems like a great tool to have in file portfolio since it allows you to anodify what others IX
atiild not be doable using that particular set of tools.
J Behan —1 #'s not always an eas y tool to apply because of all this use associated iiezoning and the
feelings of "riot in my baclgya rd. "
H Slater — The other problem is that the Town doesn't have any control over assessed value of
properties- This County sets assessment a( hest use,
J Behan — TC Assessment can set land at whau%we • Ag arc Markets said the land could produce for
crop value-
"l' Hatleld — Is that becarlse Mir )nroe County htls cli assessanent policies"?
PO 02- 28=2008
Puf;ellof17
11 Slater — It's because the county has control and their practice is to use best use.
Ai.Ld -1encc — Who controls that poi icy? The County Board?
H Slater — I would assume so. it would be much easier if you control led your oven assessing,
because than you could offer sonic inCentive4 with some assurance that you're not selling
some -body a brown paper bag with a hole in the bottom.
T Ratfield — When vvras the [as( Iii-ne this was disc-uSSed? In all honesty, I've, either forgotten or
didn't know.
M Sumner — Countywide assessment? It was quite a while ago.
T lofatfleld — Yes- On grievance day, they come be-("ore a board that's towrl 1- CSldent based.
]-I Slater � And they don't have to i' [low the recommeii&d on of that board ciihel -
J Behan — Some other possuble concepts to tie in to some of the bigger zoning projects- In
another town we worked with, we set it Lip so a soridard lot was x acres, let's say 5 acres. That's
What their lot size is in rural areas, 1 C you want to do a standard si re. if you ���ant to do a
Conservation Subdivision. and set aside some land Tor open space, e made the incentive to
41 ,allow an average density of 33 homes on 100 acres as long as you put in half'" the land for
conservation, a lot can be as small �is (as long as well and septic and everything works) I think
%VCe lTlad the minimum lot size 1 acre, We set up the whole Conservation Subdivision like that.
D Weinstein � In that circumstance, you made what (he clear trade off is in the cede versus
having a [15-ee liar all where it seems like, we'll ellle.-rain any deal you come to the table ivith. You
leII us w, hat you waist and what You're willing to give Lip, Tha( seems too open - ended. It's great
to sct up an incentive system, but you want the trade -ol f's in the incentive systelrl to be very clear.
Match — What 1- fenry's saying about the paper bag with a hole i11 the b Otto m real I sort 0f
puzzled mc- If the county is assessing land values based on optimal use, I suppose with zoning —
110 this i4 an agricultural zone � that would then not allow the county to say this is developable
land for 50 houses 017 (1114 l00 acre site; because wilth agriculture, you can't Flo that.
H to tel- — Is it being farmed? Thai's the question- 1 f it's not being farmed; it gets assessed as
industrial developmem land either way, but if -1L'4 being used for agriculture, they get an
exemption o1.'5Mu of 'if they file.
D Weinstein— Is that true if the zoning says i the only thing you can do on this land is f=arm?
Could they still say this is an industnal developincnt possibility?
I-f Slater — Zoning leas no bearing on best land use strategies.
Hatch — W hat If it's a residential area and we,'vc zoned i[ so it can only be f.lve acre lids?
PB 02 -28 -2008
Page 12 of 17
J Be ian � I think there's a short list of int c�rtant conversationL, to have with tho t own, That's
one_ The other is 1-vatcr / sewer and septic requiremernts. Once we know, n7ea'1 M,(,F t]le town, once
we know what exactly we want to discuss with there in terms of spec-iftc outcomesl, you call talk
to the county about specific scenarios amd ask them to make. acconlijnodatjons, And I don't think
any of these are she %v stoppers, I think we, need tci lay out #hc ground�4�ork. Otherwise We need
something clear to present then. It may be an educeltion process I'or the assessor in terms of how
to assess open land. We've done workshops on that for that.
M I -latch — We talked about his scenario with 17 acres of land Ie-ft, If that 17 acres is assessed las
dcvcIopable in I or 2 acre lots, the taxes on that property are going to be huge. S o there i s going
to be no incentive for this person to keep their 17 acres.
J 13e11all — If your code says you requll-e no further subdivision, then the value viould be less.
Sumner— 1 f %ire say 'It can't be SLibdivided, but the County's doing the assessment based on
best use,
J Behan — They have to consider that,
J La]le }+ —I suggest when the tilde ec)me.S to have the conx•crsations with the ��unty we may
lit to C cons going to coninllttee rather than to staff_ The oullty does its work by
40 �pmmittee,
D Weinstein — Were you making a firm proposal here that we consider 250 feet for frontage?
J Behan — Yes.
D NVeinstein -- rind are yoLl introducing that as part of this or something we need to think abotLt?
J Reban — That s Cllr C[UCStiC11 tO VQLI_ M y senw is that the di mens l0nal Changes — rigli[ no w, the
way your subdivisions are set up and the code is set up; you're goIiig to continue to get these
c011voluted sub li vilsiwis codling in to the Board. ,9+� question to you is, is that ok while you're
trying to Fix the whole zoning. We want to get these guidclincs in place, but there are also
discussions v c have to have about lots and df velopnment. That lltimber is a great too] for the
Planning Board to LISe with direction as a starting point to implerllcnt these guidelines,
.1 Lailey — I'm in the camp ofmlling out the guidclincs, heeatuse it starts the discussions and lays
the groundwork for ultimate[y the laws chat might support that, rather than — it's a question of
swallowing the clephant in a series of bites rather than trying to swallow the whole elephant, Cor
the public in particular_ For that matter, the various conimittecs For the Town. Sooner rather than
later is where 1 wood lean.
J La uatra — Yes, sooner rather than later,
B Caldwell — But no moratorium ill the nneantime, becEiuse that gets people's backs tip.
PB (12m28 -2008
Page 13 of 17
Ivy LlrrRel - — SO I carne back from conterencc with this Ie gal framework For a Conservation
Subdivision Des Ign which stiggests, "A To Board may, by local Iaw or orclinancc, au Clio rize
the Planning Board to approve Cluster Development simultaneously with the approval of a plat,
subject to certain conditions -" Or "The Town board rm �y al low the Planning Board to involve.
requirements provided there is no increase in density overall in the sAdi�+isioll That sotmds
simple- Why don't we just do that?
j Behan — Who wrote that?
7 fi
umner — l was trying to gure. that out, This was presented by WE Associates, Pc n-Reld,
B Caldwell — We had that wording before. and Mahlon (Perkins) Said it had to go back to the
Town Board because they had to do it.
Right, The y have to pass the law and give us that authority-
M. Hatch — Can rural residential permit agriculture.?
H S later —You can do agricultural anywhere in the Town of Dryden currently-
DisGLISSion-
11 Slater — Y 0 U might wan>: to cake a look at the definition o F agril ou I tura 1. because the deri111tion
written in 1968 1s a lot d]f'7'erent today.
N Munkenbeck — A«d you rnIght actually watit to consider whether you want it blanket
agric:ul Ural or if you want to be able to, stay, restrict coiif nement hog operation or something of
that nature, Putting a C S A In the 1-riid d Ie of a subdivisien Is Very d1J'7'erent than putting a
ccnfirtemelit hog operation on the edge. I can't Imagine anyone putting one in tl�e middle.
H Slater — r can see someone saying the same thing about sheep,
M Hatc -li — I just want to make sure we discuss it at same point and that it doesn't get Iost 1n the
z.oni nor regulations,
H Slater — Those are things that should be on the Punch list so wc make sure to take a look at
them.
J Mean — One of" the main things I want to get a decision On Prom the board is — 11. seems like it
awakes sense to move a forward %krith the Design G ii. iclelincs now- �l'he bigger zoning questions that
we're talking about now are there- diet the guidelines out there as a bite sire piece to sec. `Then
I art those either together or independently, get those adopted- My sense is, the frontage
issue, you rnay� not. want to deal ���ich now. We may want to Ieave. that alone,
1{1 utl�ncr —1 don't have a goad sense of it yet- i can't even calk abo ut it yet,
PB 02 -28 -2008
Page 14 of 17
• H Slater — My sense of it is that frontage right now is critical. Frontage, other than with access,
many times means nothing because you've got small access to 17 acres. I think frontage should
be always subjective to the lot sire.
M Sumner — But you're suggesting using it as a crippler by increasing frontage, which would
inhibit development, until we were ready...
H Slater — Not always. Along the Route 13 corridor, it's a great idea. But on Card Road, it might
not be.
J Behan — It's a tool though. it's probably more important than acres. It's the commodity that's
in place now. 15 acres with small frontage, what you can do is use the guidelines
D Weinstein — If we go to 250, it needs to be spelled out — here are the options that we're
throwing in to the mix — so it's clear that we're not just taking something away — we're giving, a
trade off of new options accompanying this bigger, required road .frontage. And 1 don't have a
good feeling for what those other new options are.
J Behan — if you look at the guidelines as they're written right now, essentially the difference
between the scenarios — if you adopted the guidelines and that property came in, the Irish
Settlement road property, one could development that in a much worse way right now in the
town, given your current law. The only thing you would need to change right now would be the
frontage. That would empower, give you the capability. In other words, if you adopt the
guidelines softly, it would be discussion you could have with applicants showing them what You
want to have happen.
H Slater — Can we use density as a guideline? If you maintain this density ratio for this 40 acres,
let's say; we don't care how much road frontage you have.
D Weinstein — But we do care. NVe care that it gets created in such a way that it maximizes open
space. We don't want them to go and just divide evenly
F1 Stater— I just picked density because that's one l know would work. You don't have to pick
density. There is any number of tools to pick to regulate what you want the outcome to be.
M Hatch — For me, the problem comes when we're talking about where this 250 foot or this
density model is going to be applied in this map. And I look at the headings — Residential,
Agricultural, Conservation Open Space, all laid out in this patchwork way, and I'm trying to
picture (the point Henry's making) in relation to that where some places, having a very narrow
band going up and then creating a very narrow cluster development off that narrow band, makes
a lot of sense, A 250 foot space on a town road doesn't always make sense. These Zones, once
the guidelines are out, it would seem to me, all that's going to have to be reconfigured in some
significant way, because you're going to .want to preserve open space in some, places, and you're
going to want to have density in other places, and it's going to have to do, not with how these
grids are laid out, and you're going to want to have Agricultural Permits of a certain sort in some
spaces, and in other spaces Agricultural freedom to do more than perhaps not concentrated feed
PB G2 -2$ -2008
1'agv 15 of 17
lots but sornethin that would be less accessible in snore residential region- I think guidelines are
really important to gel out. because 1 think it's really important to encourage people to think
about coimnercially developing this way, and msidentialIy in more open spaces th1 s way or in
clustered spaces like you were saying instead of those leafy patterns going out i'ronl the vill age,
1
hamlet- The next step to zoning would be to reconfigure these categories; Conservation,
Agriculture, Dural Residential, Suburban, so that the topography fits more with the ?? dicons?
J Beh�m — Right. For this district, there would be special provisions on how it is developed and
for these situations, these provisions. V o r situations where there is little frontage INcrr a property,
you would enable them to do a goad project,
B aldweli — You're going to be ]rieeting with the developers and builders tomorrow, right?
J Behan — Yes,
B Caldwell � If anything significant cornt6s out ofthere that you Fief we sliouId hear, pre
6urnably
that wouId come back to us. if nothing sign11:1 can t conies out ofthat, woWJ It be helpful,
M aryA nn, for us to h a V a m()tioil to recoininend to the l owrl Board that they adopt these two
se is of guidelines? Are we on the right timeframe there?
M Surnrler — I think it is tinge to star introducing this to the Town Board, so that they 11 ave time
40 V
to rcvit w it and digest it. T don't know that we-'re ready for a motion yet,
D W inslein — it wo4ildn't be a bad idea that, next month, this Bo aid was going to Consider and
vote 1.1or a recommendation far these guidelines Or not,
J Laquatra4— I think that's a real good idea-
M S ujnner — 1S 11714 1Tletun with the con structIon people, are we planning ariothe.r kind of public
meeting between now and the next Planning Board Fleeting? We need to have a public
lllfol'matlon niectIng before we heW-le a public lie arin
DisCUsSlon,
J Behan — 1 SeL I really damerig1ng, Overly controlling. In the residential. you're joist
saying, �ve'1i� galnL to be consl&rae.
J Lalley — YOU1V( -tjust c-ut in hciifthe nu mhf:,r of loss I can develop on my frontage lot- I know
thaC' , 11Qt vliat YotiL'jLe Sayii� , I'm being irrational and coming up with things people will say,
I Behan — %4'e cliseussed not impletnentinu the frontage clevelopirnent right no�Arr- I'm very
coni:Fortable putting the guidelines oLlt just as they are, realizing the Planning Board is going to
be a little bit in a in between phase until they have the rest of the di men 4;l oil al parts laid put.
Plx 02 =2882008
pugs 16 01,17
M -Sumner - It sound. rre like the ui • like then w �
� to ] g del mes a] c e crslon of the Com prcllensaVe
Plan. We told everybody; don't worn about the Comprehensive Plan, it's just an idea, just a
suggestion,
Behan —These will be adopted, These will be your code.
I SLLInner— I know. but the Comprehensive flan vas adopted too, but it-s not a lave. They're
guidelines, `t'he 're not regulations. ThaCs what pevplc are going to say. They called it the
closest thing you can get to neW Z0]ll]Sg without adopting new zoning.
Disctts5ion-
J Behan — The se have to be adini iii stered by (lie PIaruiing Board, so when the convertI ell ce
grocery store C-OlTiey ill to town3 you're gonna say,
hey, vA'&o]r1G. He re's this little booklet. Let's
talk about it. These are the kinds of things were looking tar, The Planning .Board, instead of
negotiating after the !'act, they'll probably have engineers and other kinds of follcs.
D Weinstein — So If they come before the board and they say, these guidelines are very nice, but
it's l,o( really the way we want to do it. We don't have any power ...
J Behan - ] would
have. to be. fair and
tl)e end of the day,
to lase these - And i
simple, there are ti
spy you do. Here °s ,Ile l�hc Planning; Board has guidelines on how you
reasonahle, not arbitrary. Just like oli the 5EQR, is this impact acceptable? At
it's human Judgment. Thal's why you're given the big bucks. The .Beard has
CS up to you to have that conversation with the applicant and because it's not
adeoffs.
N MLLnkerlbeck— Where do y'oti Jecermine the Bi)ard has to LISe them?
J Behan — 1 (lien you get the amended toxvn Zoning, it's going to say that- You bavc the authority
no, to ask for all of these things in the guidelines, but it's not really clear hove you go about that
process right now; so yoWre- really just saying, have them go t]1r0ugl1 this book anti if they make
a good effo rt at dealing with .access Management and C]reuIadon. do yoLt really necd four curb
cuts, have they dealt with screening„ building materials, signs, lighting, landscaping; site layout,
being respollsivc to viIInew character, parking and site layout, all you go through that with the
applicants, and by the time y+ou'rc fmjsht cd. you should have a project that hits this. And this is
real Cy for the applicants, Ify+ou-re cLcommercial deveIoper, it's much less guess estimating what
you 1, ant as a Towil. ]'],ere will be queStioris and back and forth, they (the guidelines) are really
just interpreting N,01M you have power already to do in your Site Plan Review. 'ThaCs )xhat this
does,
B Caldwell — Is it an appropriate time to ask il,e- Town Board to give its this special flexibility on
subdivisions?
M -Sumner — That was the first priority' after the Comprehensive Plan was accepted that wha wc
rt3ally need to do is enable the PlanniL,g board to alIow these- A COLIPIC 0Fdevelopntienls have
Started that QiauId have been a lot betLer, 1'd be a I I Co I' it.
PB 02 -28 -2008
Page 17 of 17
J Behan — Again; we've already made some of those changes before we put thean in front of you.
We redefined what a subdivision is. We've crossed out some stuff to allow you to do that. If you
wanted, we could develop that as well.
What are our next steps?
J Behan — We're going to have that meeting tomorrow (with developers and contractors). Then
we'll schedule a public meeting with this board. We can present to the Town Board. I would like
that conversation to be a public event so people can come and get the whole story.
N4 Sumner — The March Town Board meeting. Are you talking about doing something that soon?
J Lallev — I think our March meeting should become the public meeting and from that there
could come a motion to present the guidelines to the Town Board.
One meeting or two? Discussion. Two meetings in March.
Public Workshop scheduled for March 13`h.
Regular Planning Board meeting scheduled for Nelarch 20`x'
• Meeting was adjourned at 9:15 pm.
Respectfully Submitted,
Path Millard