HomeMy WebLinkAbout10-11-2006z18
OCTOBER 11, 2006
9:00 A.M.
WAL-MART SUPERCENTER PUD
FEIS WORKSHOP
Members Present:
Supervisor, Richard C. Tupper
Councilman, Theodore V. Testa
Councilman, Edwin O'Donnell
Councilman, Ronal L. Rocco
Councilman, John C. Proud
Town Clerk, Karen Q. Snyder
Others Present: Town Attorney, John Folmer; Planning Board Member, Nick Renzi;
James Trasher and Scott Smith from Clough Harbour & Associates; Attorney Kelly Pronti from
Harter Secrest & Emery LLP. representing Wal-Mart; Steve Cleason from APD Engineering;
Representatives of C.A.P.E.: Jamie Dangler, and Jo Shaffer; Marsha Havaran; Dick Benchley
from the J.M. Murray Center; and News Reporter, Evan Geibel from the Cortland Standard.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: I don't know if it's really necessary to call it order, but we will. This
is an opportunity for the Town Board members to ask questions of Wal-Mart. I see their
engineer and their lawyers are here. No?
ATTORNEY FOLMER: No, this is a conversation between the Board and its consultants.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: No okay. Well forget Wal-Mart. You just be quiet back there. This is
our consultants. Thank you John. You got mein trouble with my first sentence. I'm doing good.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: It's early yet.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: It's early? Yeah, I haven't had my coffee yet. So this is an
opportunity for us to ask our consultants questions. It's informal. We can either go around the
table or however you want to do it. I think I found a mathematical error on page 49.
JAMES TRASHER: Just to start out, everyone has in front of them a draft letter of our
comments as it relates to the FEIS. I can let Scott ... coordinated most of the effort between
folks in our office so when it comes to the technical stuff ... I'll let Scott speak too. But just one
of the big things just so everyone is aware of we talked about it previously, our office along with
John met with the New York State DOT and the applicant a little over a week ago, John?
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Two weeks ago.
JAMES TRASHER: Two weeks ago ... to talk about the proposed revisions to the traffic impact
study and the mitigation that they're proposing and I think this section ... I'm wrong.
Supervisor, you received a copy of the letter from the DOT yesterday as it relates to Bennie Road
and then what the DOT is recommending as part of this potential project. And then number two,
the impacts to Route 13. And in a conversation with Bill Egglaw who was at the meeting the
other day, who is the head of the planning portion of the Department of Transportation for this
region. His statement was that he's adamant about not losing any capacity on Route 13. It needs
to be shown in the document. We have found that document and conversations with the
applicant. They thought it was included but doesn't appear to be in there. So that needs to be
included before the DOT is comfortable with the overall components of this project. They want
everything ironed out before the Town deems the document complete. So they know what the
proposed mitigation is. They want to say it's acceptable so they have direction moving forward.
They really don't want it to leave the SEQRA process. So that completes the traffic ... .
ATTORNEY FOLMER: James, on page 3 of the FEIS under the paragraph labeled additional
traffic analysis, the first paragraph talks about expanding the study - the traffic study - to 281
Limehollow, K-Mart plaza so on and so forth. But the second paragraph talks about including an
additional option at the direction of the DOT concerning widening, is that what you think they
are referring to or does DOT want more than that promise or representation that they'll do that
during the permitting process?
SCOTT SMITH: The response is in the document. It says it here but it's not shown on any time
sheets anywhere, that widening.
1
1
1
z i9
OCTOBER 11, 2006
WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP
PAGE 2
ATTORNEY FOLMER: I see.
SCOTT SMITH: It's not in the response to the DOT's comments.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Okay.
JAMES TRASHER: So we just need to have it in the documents so they understand. Okay
there's road widening proposed. Are there any right of way impacts that we talked about at the
meeting. You know, when they widen the road do they need to get land from potentially others,
or can they accommodate everything within the existing right of way. There's the old plan
within the document but the new plan isn't there. So based on our conversation with the DOT
yesterday, they want the new plan with all the proposals put into one document that they can
look at and say we're good with that and then they'll give sort of a blessing to the Town to move
forward. They really want it wrapped up in SEQR so it doesn't linger between SEQR and
permitting with the DOT. That's from the planning department.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: I was very glad, as I'm sure all of you were, that they decided to
drop the oil and lube, they didn't have to do that.
COUNCILMAN TESTA: Yes they did.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: No, I don't think so. They could have ... couldn't they have applied
for ... it's a business use. Couldn't they have applied for ...
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Ron, you have to keep to discussion here.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: Oh, well I was asking my reference man over here.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: We've got to keep to discussion here.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: I don't think they can.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: I don't think they can. It's over the aquifer... .
COUNCILMAN PROUD: Speaking of traffic issues here, I'm strongly interested in that
recommendation for Bennie Road. I've made comments on that when we talked about that,
you'll see in the future ... Starr Road intersection 20 years from now people will address it. This
Will give us a chance to address it, but I've got some additional questions now, but let me preface
them by saying I did not have time since I've gotten back to town to do anything other than this
I've got questions about how the Town is going to maintain Bennie Road. How we're
going to be able to plow that and turn the plow around. And how the adjoining parcels will
continue to get access ... some technical points to sort out. And I had a question in the
beginning ... came up later in the ... comments on traffic and it was about the Fairview/222
Fairview/McLean Road. It was a comment that appeared that they could address traffic issues
there but it wasn't a commitment to address it.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: It's a four way stop ...
COUNCILMAN PROUD: Yeah, a roundabout or something like that at the other end of
Fairview. But it didn't seem to be a commitment to do it. It just said that it could be something
that could be done. It would ease the traffic issues there.
JAMES TRASHER: We can take a look at, four way control stops are always difficult if they
don't warrant a traffic signal because there is really nothing more that you can do. Maybe some
additional signage that lets people know ... a busy intersection ahead so people actually come to
a complete stop, those types of things. But we can take another look at that.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: What were those two intersections again John?
COUNCILMAN PROUD: They were both on Fairview and 222.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: By Gutchess and by the airport.
JAMES TRASHER: I can't believe they would call it a roundabout.
z2o
OCTOBER 11', 2006 WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP PAGE 3
COUNCILMAN PROUD: I think that's the word they used. Something like that. The only
thing I could think of is a traffic circle.
JAMES TRASHER: That's what a roundabout is, you know. ... Classic roundabout but in a
large scale. You go into places in the New England states, you have a lot of roundabouts at busy
intersections because what it does is it forces people to just say we've got to go slow here
because your looking for traffic coming from all directions. Sometimes they're more of a traffic
nightmare ...
COUNCILMAN PROUD: You've got to take your blood pressure meds ...
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: It is. It's a nightmare. And you know, I had wanted a stoplight there
a while ago, but you know the County blew it off. There's just going to be a tremendous amount
of traffic through there. They're repaving McLean Road as we speak, for obvious reasons.
Those salt trucks come through there lickity split even though the speed limit is only 40, you
know they're going 60 with their jerk brakes. I don't know how you could put a stop sign -
make that a four corners - I don't know how you could do that because the road is so ... the slant
is so great as your coming into Cortland from McLean. They may not be able to stop in time
unless they're familiar with the road. We need to do something there.
JAMES TRASHER: We can address that.
COUNCILMAN TESTA: Let me get in here a second.
JAMES TRASHER: Some of these things where they talk about proposed mitigation and
they're not quite sure because when you do a traffic impact study it's based on trip generation
information and sometimes you get into proposed opening if you ever get to that scenario. With
this project you do a post development traffic impact study to determine what the actual impacts
are on the traffic system and then you set aside some money for potential impacts that weren't
accounted for. So if there is any ... we may be able to do something here, but we're probably
not quite sure what should be done at this point....
COUNCILMAN TESTA: I just want to bring up something. Dick and I have been meeting
here, a couple two, three times. And he talked to the Sheriff and I talked to the State Troopers
about the congestion that's going to occur out there if this goes through and I just see that for
personnel for one year $205,000 for three officers. And the State Trooper hasn't faxed me back
all the information on that and we would like some type of coverage there as far as the
participant paying for it.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: That doesn't give us 24-hour coverage. It gives us about a little more
than half of a day and a car ... the Sheriff would agree to stay in the vicinity in the Town of
Cortlandville and since most of his calls are on that side of the Town of Cortlandville
predominantly. We're not asking for a substation, which was the original request. And in the
book they reference a letter that was in the ... on page 52 you reference in the original DEIS
comments from the Sheriff's Department and so I contacted the Sheriff. Those comments were
made by Marty Coolidge a captain in the road patrol who is now retired. The Sheriff said he
wasn't even aware that Marty had made any ... he said it was a phone conversation. So I asked
the Sheriff if he anticipated anything and he faxed me that letter about an hour later. He does
anticipate that there is going to be some additional .... So he and the County Administrator
came up with some costs for three officers and a car, which would at least give us daylight
coverage and maybe a little bit in ... if we had 7 to 9 at least we'd have some coverage. You can
have a copy of the letter if you'd like James. I don't know if Teddy gave it to you or not. We
are a little concerned.
COUNCILMAN TESTA: We also need the State Trooper's findings too and that didn't come in
yet. We'll forward that to you too.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: And that was at another super store center right?
COUNCILMAN TESTA: That's correct.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: You wanted to see what kind of impact it had on the community?
ZZ1
OCTOBER 11, 2006 WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP PAGE 4
COUNCILMAN TESTA: Yes, and I think if I'm not mistaken, I think it was Schenectady. And
the other thing that we took a look at, the Walden Oaks area up there. ... Talking to the
engineers, not you guys but our guys here, and they're not too happy about booster pumps. We
think we need a tank up there. And the one that's on Cosmos Hill cost $700,000.00. But to one
that's I don't know how many?
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: A couple million.
COUNCILMAN TESTA: A couple million. And we only want a couple hundred thousand for a
smaller tank. And that means we need to acquire the property and put a tank up there. For some
reason, Pete tells me that the booster pumps are difficult. They get calls in the middle of the
night and stuff like that. A lot of problems with it. Am I right?
JAMES TRASHER: You don't want too many booster stations. I think they've provided
information in here .... water pressure at Walden Oaks under fire flow conditions.
SCOTT SMITH: ... Fire flow conditions ... even under fire flow demand .... You only have to
retain 20.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: That's at the top of the hill?
SCOTT SMITH: That's at the top of the hill.
JAMES TRASHER: When you get into these things there's 10 state standards which NYS DEC
and DOH go by when your designing water systems for both commercial uses and residential
uses. Those are the guidelines that are set forth when they sort of review things. But you still
have the quality of life issue, where a person turns on their shower in the morning and when you
have all the showers running you want to make sure it's not coming out in drips. So that's, you
know, one of the things that Ted called us about and we made sure that it's addressed to
satisfaction of the Board and to the residents of that area where they're not going to .. .
COUNCILMAN TESTA: Okay, so James, if there's not a problem now, truthfully speaking,
we'd like some money set aside. Because that area looks like that's growth up there now, to me
anyway, what I've been looking at. There's a lot of growth that should happen up there, so
because we don't have a problem today, it doesn't mean two years down the road we're not
going to see more development up there. I don't know how that's going to affect it because I'm
not an engineer, but....
JAMES TRASHER: What we have to look at when we do these reviews is the water demand
that comes from the full build out of this development and their impacts to the system if a
residential developer wants to go build 200 houses somewhere on that hillside, he might be more
responsible for causes and water pressure problems than potentially what they're doing. So
you've got to access charges based on who is potentially creating a problem. If they're creating
the problem then they have to fix the problem before you approve something.
COUNCILMAN TESTA: How are we going to do this here now that ... there is a problem up
there. There is a problem. What I'm saying is, is it going to affect us a year from now. If this
place is built tomorrow morning, is that going to affect those people up there? What I'm just
saying is that I think we ought to set some money aside and the Town Board ought to have the
discretion in saying, well the water department or the engineers ... maybe some I don't know
what you'd put up there ... another tank I guess I would say.
JAMES TRASHER: Right now, if you were looking at the system, the system for intense state
standards after the development, we need to go specify requirement. So, we don't want ... if we
can do as ... just like with traffic, if there's a degredation level of service, then they potentially
need to do improvements. If they're reducing the pressure of the flows that could cause potential
issues, we should have them remedy or mitigate the situation so there isn't a negative impact
over what's there right now. So that's their baseline is what's there now. And if there's a public
benefit that they can bring by taking what's there right now and taking those residents up to a
better level, it will help mitigate some of that public concern or controversy that comes with a
project like this. So that would be, we're not talking to them, but they're listening to us. That
would be great if they'd take a look at that.
zzz
OCTOBER 11, 2006 WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP PAGE 5
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: As long as we're into Walden Oaks ... was the concrete wall, its in
there some place? And it runs from where to where?
SCOTT SMITH: Yes. Almost the northeast corner down past the store ... parking lot where
that retention pond is, and then from there to the chain link fence.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: So it's a solid, how high was it? An 8 foot solid concrete wall that's
going to run the whole length for security. I know that was an issue with some Walden Oaks
people, so that's a pretty good security barrier. And there was some discussion about additional
landscaping on that side hill. And I couldn't tell by looking at the landscape snap whether there
were any ...
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: Whatever they tore out, they were going to ...
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: ... replace. But was there any additional landscaping on that side hill
in the proposal?
JAMES TRASHER: ... off the property just because we can't tell them to go onto other
people's property. We can control what we have jurisdiction of. Either right of ways or the
property that their looking to permit. And just walking out there with Mr. Rocco I think some of
the stuff ... it would be very difficult to do stuff on site on some of those residential properties
just because the slope of their ... their house or planting trees. You can plant a 50 foot tree ...
correct? Am I wrong? So ...
COUNCILMAN PROUD: I think the slope there is going to be more of a deterrent to trespassers
At least as much as the 8-foot wall. Maybe a drive around Walden Oaks ... slope necessarily.
But there is also an issue of sound ... and there is a light issue.
SCOTT SMITH: Well the masonry wall also provides the sound ... so you're doubling up there.
And the light poles, which I think were originally 42 foot are now down to 30's.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: It looks like they're going to be 20 over near Walden Oaks and then
SCOTT SMITH: Right along that property line right. Right. Right along the edge of the
parking lot ... security ... .
COUNCILMAN PROUD: ... light ... a significant benefit to the people of Walden Oaks.
JAMES TRASHER: Yes. Because if you look at the homes that are there on Walden Oaks ...
what we talked about when we were going into this was the line of sight being dark sky
compliant. There's some of the stuff that you're going to outline potentially in this
environmental impact statement and through the PUD process when they get the planning board,
if they get to the planning board, it's the planning board's responsibility to make sure they stick
with what the board puts forth in the documents. And if you are dark sky compliant you don't
have any off site scatter of light. There's different types of fixtures that should be put along the
rear property line.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: There was mention also that they could go to 20-foot poles through
the whole lot, but they'd have to increase the number of them. Would there be a significant
benefit to that? To the people of Walden Oaks? Or would they really not gain that much from it?
SCOTT SMITH: I don't think your really going to gain that much. The fixtures that they are
proposing already are the ones that don't create much glow in the sky. They dropped the light
pole fixture height by 10-12 feet now. An extra 10-12 feet... isn't a lot. There is a significant
height variation between the line of sight to Walden Oaks ... .
COUNCILMAN PROUD: When they're measuring that pole, I think ... they must sit up on a
base, because they're saying a 20-foot pole, but then the height at the top is like 25 feet or
something like that.
JAMES TRASHER: What they have is a concrete base so when people are pulling in ...
because not all light poles are within islands unless you get to the point where you have islands
for all potential light poles it protects the light pole from people backing into them and then
toppling them over. That way they can concrete ...
z z 3
OCTOBER 11, 2006 WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP PAGE 6
COUNCILMAN PROUD: ... that woman that destroyed Casey Mears race car ...
JAMES TRASHER: So, you know, the statement is - if you want more shorter light poles that's
something that you can put in the document to mitigate potential height differences. But we
think at this point they're moving in the right direction and we would leave some potential
discretion to the planning board of the locations of the light poles, and the number of light poles
and the actual height as long as they're not climbing back up to a 45-foot light pole.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: And they're shaded down. And they're also ... I think the people we
talked to up on Walden Oaks agreed with this, you know the height, changing the height. They
were quite happy about lowering the poles. I don't think they were happy with the idea of
having more 20-foot poles.
SCOTT SMITH: I think this is a good compromise.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: We have to be concerned about safety too, and there is a fine line
there.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: I'm going to go back to my math error, page 49. You have the Town
of Cortlandville's property tax numbers transposed. Our taxes are $3.55 per thousand. And I
assume that transposure of our town tax probably carries all the way through column 1 of your
chart.
JAMES TRASHER: If they want to pay that it'd be appropriate, wouldn't you think?
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Why? Unless...
JAMES TRASHER: If they say they're willing to pay $5.33 I'd lock them in right now.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Well if there's a reason, if that number comes from someplace other
than ... The assessor and I tried to calculate it everyway possible and it just appears to be a
transposition.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: ...
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Yep. It is correct on the first page. I just don't know whether that
column of numbers under town benefit is correct. And the second thing from my comments, I
asked at the public comment last time about the 485B. And I noticed in reading on page 51 that
you have not indicated its desire or intent to use any tax abatement, but you wanted to maintain
the right to do so. I had the assessor run some numbers this morning for me to show what
happens if you do not since your chart shows that you do. And he ran a chart for me this
morning on no tax exemption and what the benefit would be. Over the course of ten years, by
not taking the tax abatement, the Town gains $61,000.00, the County gains $250,000.00 and the
school gains $330,000.00. So by not taking that 485B exemption, it really is a significant
difference in the amount of taxes that are going to be generated. Not so much benefiting the
Town, because we have such a low tax rate, but it does certainly benefit the county and the
school.
JAMES TRASHER: So we'll reiterate that in our letter and ... through the SEQR process ... go
into efforts for tax abatement .... They have a competitive advantage currently because they
have the ability of buying power .... they don't allow 485B ...
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Well we have had other big boxes who have not applied. They've
been asked and they have not applied. The assessor tells me that it's optional, but there are a lot
of companies that do not apply. It's important to me. I don't know about the rest of them. It's
very important in my perspective for the whole community not just the Town. And I'm going to
go back to where John was on the chart on page 13, or figure 13. We were looking at the Bennie
Road, this is your alternate for Bennie Road ... and we've done a little bit of discussion with ...
our highway superintendent was not really interested in owning that piece of road because of
plowing and maintenance. Ted and I have had a discussion with him a couple of times and
explained the benefit if we were to take possession of that road as opposed to building our own
road, because the state letter indicates that we're going to have to close Bennie Road off. They
won't make it mandatory today, but in the near future we're gonna have to shut that intersection
z2y
OCTOBER 11, 2006 WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP PAGE 7
off. So that means we as a Town will be responsible to run a connector between Bennie Road
and South Cortland/Virgil Road, which could be 500 to 1000 feet of highway we'd have to build.
JAMES TRASHER: And then acquiring of land.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: And we'd have to buy land and build the highway. With this
alternate at least we don't have to buy any land or build a highway. If I read it correctly, they
will build this road to our specifications and then turn it over to us after it's completed. It would
be a significant savings to the Town of Cortlandville not to have to build that other road. As
long as you could take care of John's problem about how far down Bennie Road your going to
go before we have to shut it off. We want to make sure that the senior citizens has access, and
we want to make sure that Cortland Pump still have access.
JAMES TRASHER: And for the Board, and I don't know if you each have a copy of this letter.
It's stating that, under current conditions ... if this was never built, that they feel they would ...
right today, that they would come to you. Maybe not tomorrow but within the next year or so
you know probably in the time frames when they start the Route 13 construction that they're
going to say, Bennie Road is out and you've got to figure a way to reroute that. So that's what
came at the meeting and that's what, well it's actually Carl Ford, regional director so you've got
it from the top dog that this is something they're serious about.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: But this system and I don't ... how everybody has looked at this
second because Carl was so opposed to it originally that we kind of ... it. But he seems to have
changed his opinion just sheerly on the cost of the other road. This alternative ...
COUNCILMAN PROUD: ... Carl's concerns because this works for me. It certainly addresses
the issue that I had. It gets people out on Bennie Road ... signal in the intersection. One
concern ... when we talk about the Bennie Road access, I think that we have to provide access to
all landowners, current landowners, we couldn't abandon them ...
ATTORNEY FOLMER: I think that's right.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: There are no driveways. All those houses on Route 13 and all those
businesses have driveways off Route 13.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: Okay.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Actually, except for Cortland Pump. And they have a driveway off
the South Cortland Virgil Road and our road. But I still think that the road should extend down
to their driveway, and the nursing home - not nursing - the senor citizen assisted housing. Thank
you, the assisted housing, definitely their driveway we can't abandon. We need to make sure
those two designs are done properly.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: ...
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: And I'm not an expert on stormwater management but I understand
that sand filters are the Cadillac of the water filtration system. I've heard that from the health
department for years. And I think Ray Thorpe, about five years ago, made a statement that he
didn't think that this could ever be built without a sand filter. I assume that Ray's chemical
engineering degree he probably was a lot smarter than me. So Ray thought that five years ago
and here we are. It appears that a sand filter system is what you finally settled on and our
engineering firm is satisfied with the ...
JAMES TRASHER: ... and also we have ... DEC ...
SCOTT SMITH: ... try to get correspondence from her, but I talked to her. My opinion ... and
we've gotten verbal approval. They did not actually submit a letter to the applicant ...
conceptual approval. But we would want, as procedures go, when they get design prints then
we'll review it and issue a letter.
COUNCILMAN O'DONNELL: Is the maintenance okay on that kind of thing? I realize
they've got the sand trap and then they have the material around it. ... When it comes change
out time is that inspected and ...
zz5-
OCTOBER 11, 2006 WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP PAGE 8
SCOTT SMITH: They have a maintenance plan yes. It's very basic and simplified, but yes ... .
And it still all has to be approved again by the DEC. Conceptually it's there.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: And who makes the decision on the monitoring wells location and
how frequently they test so that we can, if something happens on site.
JAMES TRASHER: That can be because ... your ... towards the water, we can set forth - the
Town Board - because you have the aquifer protection permit, set forth the numbers, the
locations working with us, where they should be, and the frequency of testing. And then how
those tests are reported back to either you as this body or to the director or code enforcement
office or where you want this deposited is ok. We can see if everything is good or if there is, you
know, potentially a slight problem.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: I think that we should have Peter get that data rather than the health
department.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: The County Environmental Health? Is that who it would normally be
sent to?
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: Yeah I think that they've been doing the monitoring, but we don't
have any interaction with them unless we call them. They don't tell us what the readings are.
We don't know when they're monitoring them. I think Peter would be a lot more comfortable
having that data as well as ... .
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Both, yeah it's a good point.
JAMES TRASHER: If it's something that we really want them to monitor or the cost incurred
by the applicant to do it, have a certified professional do it, submit certified reports that it's done
right because the cost shouldn't be born by the taxpayers of Cortland County to be picked up.
It's a monitoring program. I think that they're doing the monitoring.
SCOTT SMITH: Well, let me ... on page 17 of the FEIS. As far as monitoring goes, the very
last paragraph on that page, says the applicant is willing to abide by any State, County or Town
ordinances in condition ... upon similar developments as it applies to groundwater quality
monitoring. I take that to mean that if it's in your Town ordinance, it must need ground water
quality monitoring. Or if you can document that you are imposing on other similar retail
establishments in that corridor that they would do groundwater monitoring, but I don't see that
they're saying we will do groundwater monitoring.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: I picked that up and highlighted it. I think it may have been a
response to the issue that I brought up, a comprehensive monitoring program. If that aquifer
were a lake that you could see everyday, you'd know if it turned purple overnight. Now you
don't. The only way you've got of testing that, in my mind, to have, and this is for the Town, it
goes beyond I think the Wal-Mart issue but Wal-Mart is involved with the .... But to say that
we've got to have a comprehensive way to test the water that's there so that we know. Right
now we've got two-year and five-year protections on our wellheads. All right, we know those
areas. But there's no real testing that goes on. They're monitoring wells there. Some of them
have come up in discussions at the Planning Board meetings and some up around Luker Road in
there. But the reports go to County Health. There's not a program where they all come in on a
quarterly basis and they get looked at. You know, they're all analylized by an independent lab.
The samples are drawn by somebody who is independent. If we let every developer in town
draw their own water samples I think it leaves the whole system open for, well somebody went
to the tap and drew it out of a tap rather than pulling it out of a well. What I think we need is a
system and Wal-Mart is saying that they'll participate in it if everyone else participates, is a
system of monitoring wells designed to protect the aquifer. To give us advance notice of what
the conditions are. I think it would be in Wal-Mart's interest, all right and I'll express that to
Clough Harbor .... If they put in a well, they mentioned in the northeast corner, W 102 I think it
is. And they mention it's in a grassy area so it could be used as a monitoring well in the future.
But that tests the water coming off downstream from the Wal-Mart site. But Wal-Mart doesn't
know what's coming onto their site, upstream. Right? It would seem to me in Wal-Mart's
interest, that they'd stick a well in there now and they'd be monitoring on both sides so that if
there is a problem with it they can say hey look, yeah, it's coming off of our down flow and it's
also coming into our down flow. It's not us, go talk to somebody else. That's what the
monitoring program, I think, would provide.
Zz�
OCTOBER 11, 2006
WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP
PAGE 9
SCOTT SMITH: ... downgrading wells.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: And I'm not saying that we'd need one on each and every property
that's in there, but if you know you've got a problem between this point and this point, then you
can focus your efforts between those points. I think it's just something that we've got to do.
And I think we could do it by going onto new developments. If Wal-Mart's going in and they
participate, as new development comes in, like Lowe's is going to come in after this, require it of
Lowe's. But we've got to do it in some sort of ordinance and I think that's what this is saying.
They're willing to participate ... but to abide by State, County or Town ordinances or any
conditions that are posed on similar developments. But we've got to design it.
COUNCILMAN O'DONNELL: Somebody's got to be first on this thing too. ... Plan right now
COUNCILMAN PROUD: Well, it'd be a feather in Wal-Mart's cap ... they can be first.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: I'm confused. On page 11, at the top of the page, comment 1.11 it
talks about no well was installed in the northeast corner of the property. And then in the
response, it indicates that there was a well at the northwest corner, the southwest corner, and the
southeast corner, but there is no mention of the northeast. What's the ... is that a significant ...
SCOTT SMITH: That was, they installed three new wells since the DEIS was submitted.
They've got back out there and installed three new wells.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Is there a well at the northeast corner?
SCOTT SMITH: There are three.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: There are three.
SCOTT SMITH. In the vicinity of that northeast corner.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Okay.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: And that would be closet to the creek right?
SCOTT SMITH: Correct.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: And apparently one of those three will remain ...
SCOTT SMITH: No, they've gone back out there since the draft and they've done a number of
test kits out there ... infiltration testing and done three wells. They're monitoring water levels
out there. They've done a lot more investigation work out there since you've seen the draft.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: Well whatever we do I would like to see the Town get the data.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: I think your right. I mean, because environmental health is, I know
they're swamped and they're not, they're definitely not doing as many of these tests as they did
in the past. Just on a sheer shortage of manpower.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: If we were to design a system and Wal-Mart ... participating in the
design effort, we could design that system. It would seem to me to be not only to be an
advantage to the Town of Cortlandville, but an advantage to the City.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Oh absolutely.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: And actually, an advantage to the whole County. When you look at
the tax discussion that we're in, we're generating tax money ... developments. And it's all based
on the water supply ... water supply that we're going to live on.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Protecting the water has always got to be our primary concern.
1
ATTORNEY FOLMER: On page 7 there is a comment about ...
ZZ 7
OCTOBER 11, 2006
WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP
PAGE 10
COUNCILMAN PROUD: John, if I could interrupt you.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Oh sure. I'm sorry.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: I want to compliment Wal-Mart because it seems to me the
stormwater treatment that they've got, they've really made a step forward and I think we could
go a step beyond that. Thank you.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: On page 7 there's some comment about the size of parking spaces and
if you'll recall we had a pretty decent discussion and sometimes a little aggressive discussion
about maintaining parking space size. And yet here we're being suggested that maybe we should
alter those sizes. Have you considered that?
JAMES TRASHER: Under a PUD you have the ability to fluctuate your zoning and what you
require. I know asphalt has always been a potential concern over top of the aquifer. So if a ten
by twenty parking space is what people want to see that adds one foot by ... aren't they nine by
eighteen that they're proposing?
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Yes.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Nine and a half.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Nine and a half by eighteen.
SCOTT SMITH: But I'll also tell you that they're angled parking as opposed to perpendicular
parking ...
ATTORNEY FOLMER: You want to say that again for a non -engineer?
SCOTT SMITH: What they're showing in their parking lot for most of their spots is going to be
angled parking.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Right.
JAMES TRASHER: So your driving one way down the aisle, so you don't have two way traffic.
So what they're trying - based on what I think they're trying to do - they're trying to potentially
have less paved coverage over the lot. And then what would be required under the current
ordinance.
SCOTT SMITH: I mean that's the bottom line. The bigger the spots you make them, the more
pavement you're going to have and the less greenspace you're going to have.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: And we're already at sixty/forty. So making it any larger would
throw that percentage off right? Or they would have to reduce their parking spaces.
SCOTT SMITH: It's up to the Town. I mean nine and a half by eighteen are still fairly big
compared to some. What you don't want to get into is eight by seventeen or something like that
where you can't even open your door comfortably.
JAMES TRASHER: What you hear on that scenario because you're in the PUD process ... if
you get through the SEQRA process and they go to the Planning Board, then the Planning Board
would make a recommendation on you know do they feel that from a planning sense is the lot
space size adequate for the development. Then you guys ultimately have the say at the end of
the day. But nine and a half by eighteen can handle most of your typical cars. There are towns
with nine by eighteen parking spaces. Ten by twenty would be fine as well. It's up to you. Do
you want them ten by twenty?
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: Well we have a lot of trucks ...
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Well ten by twenty is gonna figure that ... we've heard from the
Planning Board... almost I think every development we've approved in the last couple of years,
I've only been here for 18 months or so, but in the last couple of years everything has been ten
by twenty I think.
zz8
OCTOBER 11, 2006 WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP PAGE 11
JAMES TRASHER: They can go ten by twenty and reduce the number of parking spaces that
they're going to have. They still have to meet the same lot coverage. There are just going to be
less spaces.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: How many spaces are we talking now? It's probably in there some
place. A thousand?
SCOTT SMITH: ...
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: I think the type of vehicle that we have in our county and the type of
customers. Yeah, you've got SUVs and you've got trucks. I mean, that's what selling in this
area and they're bigger. So maybe it makes a lot more sense. And we've got Teddy's Cadillac.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Well John, do we say at this point that we won't accept anything less
than that or do we leave that for the Planning Board?
ATTORNEY FOLMER: I'd leave that for the Planning Board ...
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Okay.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: ... But I think it's something that ought to be pointed out, that over the
last eighteen months or two years, my understanding is that the Planning Board has had several
applications where they've asked for smaller design and the Planning Board has said no, we've
just now established this design guideline and we're not going to vary from it.
SCOTT SMITH: I can't read the text, but it looks like 988 spaces.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Thank you.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: But again it's a trade off, it's not going to affect ...
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: No. Right.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: It won't change the parking spaces.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Anybody else have anything specific that ...
COUNCILMAN PROUD: ... to bring up, it's a visual aesthetic issue. In the first drawing
renderings of the building ... and the one that shows the views the second ... it's got to be the
second ... figure two. The first plan shows the facade of the building. My immediate reaction
was, it could be a Wal-Mart anywhere. I'd kind of like it to look like a Wal-Mart in
Cortlandville ...
(Turned audiotape to side B)
SUPERVISOR TUPPER:... A facade I assume.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: Yeah it's the facade. The group behind it I don't know. But this is
what you see.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Down south I've seen colonials.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: Yeah as people come through our town, what they see in Wal-Mart
will be this. And when I see this, it could be any number of Wal-Marts .... But the other one is,
I'd like to really not have it seen very much from the road. And I say that not because I have
anything against particularly Wal-Mart, but to me this is the Southern entrance to the Town. So
when people come into the Town, I'd like them to get a view of Cortland. It's a nice place to
live. It looks good. You come into some towns and if you pull in and you just get a relaxed
feeling. I think Ted you've talked with me about Saratoga. It's a nice place to go and for some
reason you just feel relaxed when you get there. And I think part of it is, it relieves you of all
your money I know. No, but there is something very soothing about it. And what's not very
soothing for me when I go into a town and there's no trees ... see all this ... it's all concrete. So
I say the more shrubbery the bigger it is. And I know Wal-Mart's got an issue. They want
people to find the store. But I don't seem to have trouble finding it.
zz9
OCTOBER 11, 2006 WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP PAGE 12
JAMES TRASHER: I think there is some opportunity that the Board has here with if you
reorient Bennie Road make that a parkway over just 3 lanes wide. You know you could do
something that's parkway -like, so it gives people going in the feeling that it's something
different. And then you could do something greater with the facades of the building. That is
probably their standard prototype for whatever building number it is. In this process with a
PUD, does the Town Board want to have the ultimate say at what the building looks like or are
you going to pass that onto the Planning Board and let them give you a recommendation of how
the building looks. Different .... when you get into PUDs operate differently.
COUNCILMAN TESTA: I think our intent was to give the Planning Board ...
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Let them enforce the design.
COUNCILMAN TESTA: ... They talked about that already.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: The signage would be a part of that design.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: I think that at one of the Planning Board meetings that I attended there
was a conversation that the applicant was going to be looking at other structures like the Dryden
Bank etcetera to see if they couldn't find something that would fit along those lines. So that area
of discussion at least has come up.
COUNCILMAN TESTA: Your correct John. You're correct about that. You're right.
Speaking to Kathy ...
COUNCILMAN PROUD: I think it's a good example of the type of building we want. ...
Looking at the Dryden Bank and the stores next to it there's a real difference. You react
differently. But it is the same gateway to the Town.
■ SUPERVISOR TUPPER: When you talked about a parkway are you talking about a island? On
that section?
JAMES TRASHER: There was more than one potential with that. You have the area there
where they show what appears to be a curb in the middle. Instead of just having a curb median,
you know, make it fifteen feet wide and plant trees up the middle of it. So you know, a certain
point where people are coming in there, it's more of a park -like drive.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Okay.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: I had one question that I forgot to ask during the Bennie Road
discussion and that's about the home. Do they need, I mean if you're going to reroute the road
and close Bennie Road, do they need more, I mean for fire exit protection, more ways of getting
in and out of there? Are they required to be on two roads?
ATTORNEY FOLMER: You mean because of regulations for the licensing for the adult home?
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: Right, for safety purposes.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: I don't know.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: For getting people out of there. If there's a fire or ... I mean if the
road is blocked it's a long way to go all the way up Bennie Road ...
ATTORNEY FOLMER: To 215.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: ... Yeah, then down, you know to get to the hospital or whatever.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: There's only one road there now. And there's going to be one road
there after.
COUNCILMAN ROCCO: Right, but I mean if the road is blocked, for whatever reason, an
explosion in the road and they can't get out onto 13 and they have to go up Bennie Road. I'm
just concerned about the fire department. If there are any rules that we need to be concerned
about, that's all.
Z30
OCTOBER 11, 2006 WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP PAGE 13
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Ron, I don't know. If there are, I'm not aware of those at this point.
SCOTT SMITH; ...
ATTORNEY FOLMER: And I'm sure that in the event we were to take the .... I went to this
meeting two weeks ago and there was just no question, and Bill ... you will close Bennie Road
period. And he didn't say you do it tomorrow, but it will be closed. And I assume when we
decide or you decide that you're going to do that and what you're going to do as an alternative,
we'll have to talk to them about licensing requirements. Because there may very well be
something in their permit that requires them to demonstrate that there are two different ways or
more, to get away for them, in case there is an emergency. Good question.
JAMES TRASHER: If you look at the alignment it comes to a second point of access. If you
look at the proposed new alignment on figure 13 C-2 alt, whatever it's called. The proposed
public roadway would come up near the ...
SCOTT SMITH: It parallels their access road to the back of the facility ...
JAMES TRASHER: So potentially, if needed, you could have some limited access driveway in
that location for fire protection. Fire Departments will get where they would need to go if you
allow them something to get from one point. I don't think the nursing home probably wants to
have the driveway potentially in this location for its main access to its facility. But, there's
potentially something that can be done there. But there's also the question about screening in
that area where you have a public roadway coming down. ... You want a screen in that area ...
landscaping. Something so there's not as Scott said, headlights shining in that area. Because at
some point it's going to be realigned somewhere, somehow.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: John.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: One last thing though. Just so you are aware of it. Under the new
rules, we must post, theoretically, we must post the FEIS on a public accessible website. And we
have to do that in a website where nobody has to pay to get to it and so on. In the past when we
put the DEIS on we could put the first volume on our website but the second and third volumes
were not able to be accessed. There is an interim set of regulations, maybe, that says, we can
post the executive summary on the website and we can then set forth there that there are copies
available in the Lamont Library and the Cortland Library and at the Town Clerk's Office of
volumes two and three. It may be impractical for us and we want to have the capability to put
that on our website. We don't have to do that until we have accepted this in its final form and
the final form obviously is not before us as yet. But I just thought that you ought to be aware of
the fact that we are going to have to publish it on the website or a website and we'll be working
on that process as we go along.... It's up to anybody.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Ted's brought to my attention an idea that, since we're so concerned
about the water and the stormwater management system that he thought maybe we should
consider getting a independent second opinion on top of our own opinion from Clough Harbour.
Maybe we should have somebody else take a look at it and tell us that this system is good. Not
that we're saying that our engineers have made a mistake, but maybe because stormwater
management is the most important part of this protection of the aquifer, maybe we should have a
second opinion.
COUNCILMAN TESTA:... I think it's the Board's decision anyway and it's no slap in the face
to Clough Harbour.
JAMES TRASHER: Do whatever you want to do.
SCOTT SMITH: Just a reminder you're also getting a DEC ...
COUNCILMAN PROUD: I was just going to say. I was going to ask you, the DEC is
indicating, right, they've got people reviewing it, right? We've been told the DEC has given
their conceptual approval but they're not going to sign on the dotted line until everything is
completed. So I think to me that ...
231
OCTOBER 11, 2006 WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP PAGE 14
JAMES TRASHER: ... Where the stormwater regulations initiated was Don Lake and Steve
Ike. Don Lake is from Manlius, New York. A big water resource guy. He was really the author
of the document. Steve Ike is the regional engineer for the division of water for the NYS DEC
for this region. He was an author of it and that's the department that's reviewing this document.
Ellen Haan who works for him, goes to Steve Ike for his sign -off on the stormwater system.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Why won't DEC tell us that they have conceptually approved this?
JAMES TRASHER: At this point, they can't ... there is a permitting process ...
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Dodge every choice. Is that what DEC stands for?
JAMES TRASHER: ... They could ... which would trigger the permitting process for a
SPEDES permit. So that's what triggers them to offer comments.
SCOTT SMITH: They're just not looking for a permit for construction. They haven't applied
for that from DEC yet. They're not to that stage.
JAMES TRASHER: We have been at meetings at the DEC office as it relates to the stormwater
system and what they are looking for, what they're going to require and you know, they're pretty
specific and particular about what they want. But you can hire five different engineering firms,
ten engineering firms ...
COUNCILMAN TESTA: Hold on a second. Why don't we wait until our next meeting for a yes
or no on that? Let's get some more discussion on that okay?
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Okay that's fine.
COUNCILMAN TESTA: I wasn't aware the DEC ... Is that all right?
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: That's fine with me.
JAMES TRASHER: The folks on your Planning Board will review the documents thoroughly as
well. They'll take the time and a hard look at it.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: That's an understatement.
COUNCILMAN PROUD: It goes to Pat Reidy at Soil and Water.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: That's true.
JAMES TRASHER: ... They previously have done reviews on it based on the work they've
done with the aquifer where they've questioned the modeling and that type of stuff. So there's a
lot of sets of eyes that go into the stormwater thing.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Okay. Anybody have anything else? John, where are we at as far as,
until we get a complete approval from the State DOT? We can't ...
ATTORNEY FOLMER: You cannot. Your next step is to determine that the FEIS is complete.
And you're not, based on the letter you received this morning and the comments that you've
heard this morning I'm not sure that the technical people are prepared to tell us that it is
complete. We have a meeting next Wednesday, and I don't know whether the documentation
can be provided in that time frame or not.
JAMES TRASHER: I think from our standpoint if we don't ... the information there ... our
letter. That's the draft form that you have there's some stuff they need to address. And really
one of the biggest components is the Department of Transportation. The traffic impacts are the
two biggest impacts are impact on water and impact on traffic.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: Exactly.
z 3 2-
OCTOBER 11, 2006 WAL-MART FEIS WORKSHOP PAGE 15
SCOTT SMITH: Yeah, a lot of our comments are probably more smaller in detail. By accepting
that as a complete document in SEQR is not the end all. I mean, it still has to go through a lot of
approval process, so. Some of these things can be worked out by Planning Board review like the
parking spaces and that kind of stuff.
ATTORNEY FOLMER: But, your next step is to be clear that this thing is final and complete
and we can't do that, or at least my advice to you is that you should not do that until your
technical advisors have said to you that in their opinion it is final and complete.
JAMES TRASHER: And our advice is going to be that the DOT is a big component in talking
to their folks. We want to make sure that they have a very good comfort level so you're working
potentially hand and glove as you move forward in this project or ... or at least there is that
coordination.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Any of the comments that we made here today, will they be ... at
what point will they be addressed?
SCOTT SMITH: We are going to, we issued our letter in draft form to you for that reason. So
we can go back and encompass your comments into our letter and then we will send that letter to
you probably today ... at least get you an emailed copy or a faxed copy.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: And how about the applicants response to our requests?
JAMES TRASHER: We'll have to talk to the applicant ... about the timetable.
SUPERVISOR TUPPER: Okay. Anybody have anything else? I guess we're done. Thank you.
The FEIS Workshop was recessed at 10:10 a.m.
1
1