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HomeMy WebLinkAbout05-11-2005MAY 11, 2005 1:30 P.M. 3v9 1 SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING SCOPING SESSION WAL-MART SUPERCENTER PUD The Special Meeting of the Town Board of the Town of Cortlandville was held at the Cortlandville Fire Station, 999 NYS Route 13, Cortland, New York, with Supervisor Thorpe presiding. Members present: Supervisor, Raymond Thorpe Councilman, Theodore Testa Councilman, Edwin O'Donnell Councilman, Ronal Rocco Councilman, John Pilato Town Clerk, Karen Q. Snyder Others present were: Town Attorney, John Folmer; CEO, Bruce Weber; Planning Board members, Nick Renzi and James Bugh; James Trasher and Walt Kalina from Clough, Harbour & Associates; Steve Cleason, Engineer for APD Engineering representing Wal-Mart; Attorney Kelly Pronti from Harter, Secrest & Emery, LLP representing Wal-Mart; Richard Tupper; Representatives from CAPE: Dr. Arthur and Dr. Patricia Shedd, Robert Rhodes, Ron Powell, Jamie Dangler, Richanna Patrick; and News Reporter, Patrick Ruppe from the Cortland Standard. Supervisor Thorpe: We're all here for the Scoping Session as required by law. Everything that will be said is going to be recorded for the record. There are various interested parties in attendance. People from Clough Harbour, people from Wal-Mart, members of the Town Board, interested citizens, CAPE members, and if I've ... Attorney Folmer: Planning Board. Supervisor Thorpe: ... and the Planning Board. And if I've left anybody out I'm sorry. Since this is a new procedure to me I will turn the details of it over to Counsel since he's the one who guides me and he can do with it what he wants. Attorney Folmer: Well I would only indicate this. The purpose of a scope is to identify the concerns that might be identified and discussed in the Draft Environmental Impact Statement that would be prepared and submitted by the applicant, reviewed by the Town's consultants to determine whether or not it is complete. When it is complete it will be converted into a Final Impact Statement, which then is available for public comment. While this meeting is open to the public it is not a public hearing. Consequently discussion will be confined to the parties that are seated around this table because it is our obligation to conduct the scope in that fashion as a lead agency. When the impact statement is finally completed it will be made available obviously for public comment. And there will be an opportunity for people other than the people around this table to speak. Because the consultants are the ones that are going to review this document, I think I'm going to ask Mr. Trasher if he would facilitate this meeting so that we can accomplish the goals for which we are here. There are two things, James that I would like you to refer to so that we all maybe can be on the same page. At one point we had completed a Part I and Part II of the Environmental Impact Statement documents and that I think is the first thing, one of the things we ought to review. And secondly we have a letter dated April 1st from Mr. Powell who writes on behalf of CAPE, and he identifies a number of things that he would hope that in the scope that these items would be considered. And I would say at the onset that in my review of these, of the 92 issues that Mr. Powell has raised there are many that are applicable. There are some that are relevant to the environmental review: But I would like to be sure that when we are finished that we have addressed or at least indicated that each and every one of these items has either been covered so that it will be dealt with in the scope or in document, or that we have decided that they are not appropriate for inclusion in the environmental review. The last thing I would like is when the applicant prepares its documents and you prepare your summary and we finally end up with a Final Environmental Impact Statement, I would sincerely hope that that document would be written to some extent in layman's language rather than technical jargon so that when I get it to look at, when I read dear John and I'm lost after that, I would rather have it so that people that are in the audience who are not technically equipped like I am not, to be able to understand at least in summary form the statements and the comments that are being made. So James it's your show. 310 MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 2 James Trasher, Engineer for Clough, Harbour & Associates: Okay. A scoping, and I'll just read it right from the regulations just so everyone is aware of what scoping really is and who gets involved in it. So it's under 617.8 Scoping of NYCRR Part 617, and I'll just read it. The primary goals of scoping are to focus on the EIS and the potentially significant adverse impacts and to eliminate consideration of those impacts that are irrelevant or non -significant. So we're not talking about the specifics today. We're talking about when we went through the Part II there are issues that were raised. Traffic. Groundwater. Those types of impacts that are significant and really try to assist the project sponsor on honing in on those areas of concern and what they need to do. And I'll just say for example traffic. If they need to prepare a traffic impact study we as your professionals need to tell them that we expect that they analyze certain intersections, certain driveways along the 13/281 corridor. So when they submit an Environmental Impact Statement we have something to reference whether it's complete or incomplete. What we're really giving them is sort of the table of contents. An executive summary to go back against so that we can deem it complete and adequate for public review. The second part. If scoping is conducted, which the lead agency decided to do, the project sponsor must submit a Draft Scope, which they did the evening where we gave this the positive declaration. The lead agency must provide a copy of the Draft Scope to the involved agencies and make it available to any individual or interested agency that has expressed an interest in writing to the lead agency. So, I think that's been done based on where it's been located. Involved agencies should provide written comments reflecting their concerns, jurisdictions, and information needed to insure that the EIS will be adequate to support their SEQR findings. So you have members of the Planning Board. Their information should be in writing so that us, as your technical representatives, when we prepare the Final Scoping Document that we will submit back to the project sponsor, we have all their comments and can incorporate it. Scoping must include an opportunity for public participation. The lead agency may either provide a period of time for the public to review and provide written comments on the Draft Scope or provide for the public input through the use of meetings, exchange of the written materials or other means. So it's up to the legal counsel. If he wants these folks to allow them to speak today or give them some time after this meeting, five days, seven days, to provide written comments to our office that we can incorporate. We already have comments from CAPE so we understand what's going on there. So once we complete this, within 60 days from when we deem this a Positive Declaration, we need to get back to the project sponsor a Final Scoping Document so they can move forward. If the lead agency fails to do so they can just submit an Environmental Impact Statement which suits their needs and addresses issues that they feel need to be covered in the Environmental Impact Statement. So that's what we're here for. I guess probably the format to go through this is seeing that you have provided a Draft Scope for their Environmental Impact Statement. We have the project sponsor walk through this and look at — they have an introduction, brief description of the proposed action, and the potentially significant adverse impacts that they plan on addressing. As well, if you go to page 4 of their document it really gives the outline of the DEIS and if there's thoughts from the Town Board members or the involved agencies and we can decided how you want to deal with the public. We're not here to talk about specifics like Wal-Mart's good, Wal-Mart's bad, any of that type of stuff. It's what they need to address in their Environmental Impact Statement so the Board can make a sound decision as it relates to environmental impacts. The twenty things that are addressed as part of the long form. It shouldn't get into unfair labor. That's not part of the environmental impact. It's truly to address the concerns that SEQR has outlined under the statute. So. Nick Renzi, Planning Board Member: James can we have a copy of that? James Trasher: Do I have an extra copy of this? Town Clerk, Karen Q. Snyder: I do. James Trasher: If the Town Clerk has additional copies. I only have my one copy. Attorney Folmer: I have just the one. James Trasher: So briefly I'll just read their definition of the action. The pending action is to construct an operation for a retail shopping center anchored by an approximately 205,000 square foot Wal-Mart Supercenter and containing two additional out parcels intended for further retail. The project is intended for an approximately 33.7 acre site located on the left side of NYS Route 13 just north of the intersection of Route 13 and Bennie Road, Town of Cortlandville, Cortland County, New York. The potentially significant adverse impacts that have been 3 / ( MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 3 identified by the lead agency are listed below. And this is where we can then start adding our input. Impact on neighboring residential properties including potential air quality, noise and ... impacts. 2) Consistency of project with Route 13 corridor plan an compliance with zoning requirements. 3) Traffic. 4) Impact of project and stormwater drainage on groundwater resources. 5) Public safety and impacts of public services. 6) Impact to existing municipal utilities, especially with respect to pressure in the existing municipal water supply system. 7) Potential reuse of the existing Wal-Mart site and building. And then from there they go into extent quality of information necessary, initial identification of mitigation measures, reasonable alternatives to be considered, and then the appendices. Nick Renzi: Excuse me, James. In what way is this document - does this document replace this? James Trasher: That document - the former DEIS that was submitted will be replaced. They can use parts of it. I have a copy of it. Nick Renzi: So essentially it's obsolete. James Trasher: It's obsolete. They will begin again and resubmit a totally new Environmental Impact Statement based on the scoping. They could reuse portions of that document that are sufficed but if there's things, let's say for instance traffic, if new things are brought to light from discussions with the Department of Transportation that they need to address, their Traffic Impact Study will need to be updated and so forth. So, we can go down the list and really just get everything out on the table. And we will be taking this Scoping Document and really be taking it to the next level. So, when we receive an Environmental Impact Statement we have something to do sort of the checks and balances to make sure that their Traffic Impact Study is truly addressing our concerns. That they're not leaving out three intersections. Because someone can put a Traffic Impact Study in the document, but we want to make sure that they are addressing the entire needs of the Town. There's certain groundwater models that you want to have run as part of the project to see characteristics of the aquifer that they can build on off of the work that was done by other professionals. That's the type of information that needs to come, that we need to put forth in the scoping document so they don't get to a point and then we get a document and kick it back and say it's incomplete and they didn't have the knowledge. Right now is our opportunity to tell them this is what you have to do. If we don't tell them they're not obligated to come back in the future and provide these technical reports. If the reports are inaccurate or incomplete then they might have to go do additional work. If we don't tell them to go do some groundwater modeling now, it's not going to happen. Attorney Folmer: James, let me ask you this. Lets take #1 on the list — the impact on neighboring residential properties. Now we're obviously concerned about the facility located immediately to the south, I guess, of the proposed site, as well as the PUD development up on the hill beyond that or next to that site. What do we have to say in order to be sure that we get those impacts addressed in the appropriate fashion? Do we have to be detailed enough to say people in the PUD are worried about the sound from public address systems and so on? Or do we not have to identify that specific concern in order to be sure that it's covered? James Trasher: I would say, lets just use noise. If there is a concern about noise that a noise study shall be completed using a certain type of — we're not going to tell them it needs to be a Radio Shack 5500 type of a piece of equipment. But we need to tell them what we're anticipating in terms of noise so they just don't write, there's going to be no offsite noise no impact. So if there's a noise study we need to tell them roughly what we want to do. And if you need to do background monitoring then you have to anticipate the noise from a typical Wal-Mart loading dock and put that on to the background noise. Then you set up, pick five off -site locations at a standard location. Pick the residential properties above it. Go to the nursing home that's down the road. These are what is anticipated. Attorney Folmer: Well, I think for example that some of the input that we've heard already, that people in the PUD are concerned about the noise from the trucks that arrive and unload at what hours of the day or night. They are concerned about the noise that may be generated by a public address system. They are concerned that might be addressed by air-conditioning and other utility installations. And I guess what I'm trying to decide is how do we say those are the kind of things that we are concerned about so that we don't miss. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? 312- MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 4 Nick Renzi: Do we have to delineate all of the noise things that we're concerned about or just noise in general typical of a Wal-Mart Supercenter? Which would identify impact ... PA systems, air-conditioning that John had alluded to. How specific can we get? Walt Kalina, Engineer for Clough, Harbour & Associates: Different impacts of different types of study areas, however it may be very different from concerns over noise, I would say that in fairness to the applicant and to make sure that everyone's concerns are addressed, if we know there are specific concerns, like the PUD to the east, I think we should recommend that that area be ... Supervisor Thorpe: Much of this has been written down or submitted to the Board. If we're in the position now of having to review this verbally, it's unbelievable. It seems to me that those comments which have been submitted to the Board which deal with these specific impacts should be automatically incorporated into the ... Walt Kalina: Oh, they will be. Supervisor Thorpe: Okay. All right. That's what I'm interested in. Because I don't want to have to sit here and define impact 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 150. James Trasher: Right, we'll take the information that was provided by CAPE and take out what is pertinent to SEQR requirements and then what is not required as far as SEQR. I'm going to just say #92 - Wal-Mart's complete record of operations ... violations of federal, state, and local employment discrimination laws and statutes. That's not going to be included anywhere in our Scoping Document. So after this, and we hear the comments of both, we're going to take out what relates to SEQR and what doesn't, put it into a Final Scoping Document and send it back. So in terms of noise we'll write under noise that a noise study is required. That means local and state regulations. What type of monitoring equipment. I'm not a noise expert but that's what we have in our staff to get that type of input so they don't start down a path of just putting out a certain type of noise monitor that is going to pick up a lot of the background noise off of 281. Because that's gonna be one of the situations is that the ambient noise off 281 is gonna be rather loud so they're gonna have to use probably more high-tech equipment. Attorney Folmer: But in that connection my concern would be this. I think that probably there could be a study developed that would say that the sound generated by this facility meets or exceeds local and whatever requirements, that those requirements may not take into account what I hear on my back porch up above this facility. James Trasher: Well that's what they need to do. They need to go to the adjacent properties and then they have to make accounts for it in their preparation of plans. So if you go to the adjacent property, if they have a swimming pool in their backyard and that's their closest point that they're gonna come to us and probably ... say hey we're going to put noise monitors at these locations ... Steve Cleason, Engineer for APD Engineering representing Wal-Mart: A comment on that. You can require us to go on the property line. There is nothing that you can do to force us on the private property. I mean, because we don't want to get into circumstances where, and we've had this happen to us, where you get someone who's ... against the project and won't let us on to their property. Now, we're at a standstill. So we'd only ask that you keep along the property line where we know we can run those tests and ... James Trasher: That's no problem. Nick Renzi: Listen. How do you make a noise assessment on a building that doesn't exist? Steve Cleason: We use background noises of existing Wal-Marts and then we can take that in based on the dissipation of noise over certain distances and add that into the background. Nick Renzi: So you have noise characteristics for ... Steve Cleason: Yes Nick Renzi: ... PA systems, forklift trucks, 18-wheelers, all of that that you can superimpose onto that site and how it would look at the Wal-Mart, the Walden Oaks PUD? 313 MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 5 Steve Cleason: Yes ... It probably is not to the point where you'd have to go up and do a sound meter in front of ... ten feet away. What you'd typically do is walk out to an existing Wal-Mart at the edge of the property and you do sound over a time line and you'd be looking at the peaks of those. And if you can identify what was the source of the peak, then you'd identify what the source of that peak. If it was an air ... If it was a truck going by. In that you'd evaluate truck routes and other things to see what proximity that truck came into that sound level. And then you'd compare that and you can go through the analysis to evaluate that background noise against where you actually have the monitor, or the significant place, sensitive areas. Attorney Folmer: Now, before we do anything else this is exactly the kind of stuff that I don't think I want to sit here and listen to. I'm not interested in methodology. Steve Cleason: That's fine, I just don't want to ... property line ... Attorney Folmer: You folks know how to do what it is that you're doing. And you folks also know what it is that we are concerned about. How you accomplish that is not my concern at this point in time. I don't want to spend all afternoon listening to engineering batter that I don't understand, and that I think has to be evaluated by somebody other than me. Nick Renzi: To get back to Ray's point, which is a good one. You've got already public comments on this. To re -reflect on the noise sensitivity ... and make sure that those are addressed by the applicant. Councilman Rocco: For example the properties on the top of the hill overlooking the property — Walden Oaks area. Those homes along the ridge up there. We'll know what the noise level will be for those areas? Whose property overlooks, you know, the back of the store. Steve Cleason: Correct. Councilman Testa: James. After this meeting are you going to give us a timeline so we can still submit something if we thought we forgot it? Attorney Folmer: Yes. James Trasher: Yes. Councilman Testa: How long are you going to give us? James Trasher: We don't want to give you too long because what we need to do is we need to get a Final Scoping Document together, get it back to the Board for their final review before we submit it to the project sponsor. So I would say ... Attorney Folmer: Ten days? James Trasher: Yeah. Attorney Folmer: Ten days. Nick Renzi: There's going to be a lot of detail in that Scoping Document. James Trasher: Correct. Nick Renzi: That's going to be the ... of things that they have to address. James Trasher: Yeah. It's going to be a little bit more detailed than what they gave. They sort of just gave us the bulleted items and then we're gonna to fill in the blanks. Attorney Folmer: Let's go down to another. Let's talk about impact of the project with stormwater drainage on groundwater resources. Let's talk about that. How do you propose to suggest that they deal with that particular issue? James Trasher: What do I propose? Or, what does the Board want? I know that there's ... there's several people on the Board who have brought up issues that they have with groundwater or with runoff from the parking lots, potentially the oil lube area, different locations on site. Just cars parking and dripping oil. ,3 ► 4 MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 6 Supervisor Thorpe: Well I want to know specifically how Wal-Mart intends to produce water, which is pure enough to be injected into the aquifer including the removal of all dissolved substances? And I don't mean superficially. I mean all dissolved substances including hydrocarbons, chlorides, and all the rest of them. Councilman Rocco: Quite frankly a water treatment facility I think is something that I would like to be aware of if Wal-Mart has these and other properties. If all the runoff could be treated in a water treatment facility off the ... so that we can be assured that what Ray wants happens. Nick Renzi: Is that covered in the preliminary stormwater management plan that was submitted by APD Engineering? Is that ... considered or is there going to be an elaboration on that stuff? James Trasher: What document is that out of? Nick Renzi: This is stormwater - Steve, I think you gave this to me. Preliminary stormwater management plan for Wal-Mart #171, Cortlandville, New York prepared by APD. James Trasher: If that's from the former DEIS, we haven't reviewed it and I would ask ... Nick Renzi: ... Attorney Kelly Pronti for Harter, Secrest & Emery, LLP representing Wal-Mart: That was submitted in connection with ... Steve Cleason: ... our applications, and outlines some of the ideas that could be utilized. And I guess what we would be looking is to what standards determine all is not a standard that is utilized by anyone. I mean the health department has water standards, the drinking water standards that are not all. The term all is a pretty difficult one to make. But you can ... drinking water standards or different standards that we would like to see and I think we would be looking to you to establish what those are. Supervisor Thorpe: Meet our drinking water standards. Councilman Rocco: I'd like to make sure you save yourself some time and not come up with a pond and we're going to have normal filtration in through the existing soil which will purify the water. I know I don't want to hear that. I can't see how you can do this without having a water treatment facility. I'm not an engineer. I don't know the answer to that. Supervisor Thorpe: Well let them deal with this. Councilman Rocco: Well that's a big concern to me. Councilman Testa: James. How about wells for contamination. James Trasher: In terms of being able to look and say okay they have some ... To make sure that things aren't going off site or getting in to the aquifer having monitoring wells and some type of monitoring program that assure that there's nothing going to the aquifer. Attorney Folmer: James is it appropriate to ask them to include in their study a quantitative analysis of how much of the actual aquifer is being affected by this construction? Can we ask that that be done? James Trasher: Can you ask that that be done? We asked the last applicant who was proposing something on top of the aquifer .... They did a detailed analysis of the aquifer, the flow patterns, and how things get to the recharge and how they get to the wells. So they can build off of existing studies that are currently out there that have been done by soil and water and different professionals. Attorney Folmer: Go ahead Nick. I'm sorry. Nick Renzi: There's a report that ... from Pat Reidy from Soil and Water. It's a draft report that John got a copy of today, that goes into the USGS modeling in response to la, lb and .... And I think that once that's officialized by Pat Reidy and ... that should be used as a basis for ... floor modeling .... It's an important piece of information. It would help .... 1 L�1 315 MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 7 Attorney Folmer: And while we're talking about water we ought to be discussing the effect of the construction and the pressure that is going to be necessary to provide adequate water to the PUD on the hill. Because there's been expressed some concern that the addition of this facility at the bottom of that hill will in fact have an adverse affect upon the ability to get water up the hill to the people at Walden Oaks. Nick Renzi: And aren't there a couple of houses up there that have trouble getting water pressure on the second floor that have .... Attorney Folmer: Now. Supervisor Thorpe: Now. James Trasher: That's something that can we can put as far as their analysis for utility improvements ... but we can outline what's going to be required in different parts. Attorney Folmer: And in the final analysis the document ought to err on the side of more rather than less as it deals with treatment of the aquifer and so on. That is to me the primary concern, the primary worry, and the primary focus of what this study ought to be all about. So for heaven sakes don't skimp on the water issue. Let's make that the most significant portion of what you're going to do. Nick Renzi: To get back to John's point, the operative word quantitative, wherever possible, quantitative analysis is .... James Trasher: To just summarize the thoughts of the lead agency and the involved agency over here is to have sort of a detailed analysis of the quality treatment of the stormwater. We realize that under state regulations that the DEC ... there's quantity and quality. But the quality is more the concern than the quantity. Attorney Folmer: And I don't like the use of the word sort of. I don't want a sort of analysis. I want a quantitative analysis. Nick Renzi: The stormwater management plan presented, respectfully, I guess it's pertinent information, but it's not acceptable as a document. ... brought some stuff from the website, you know with the bio-retention systems and the ... but it doesn't have the quantitative analysis that we're looking for. James Trasher: They're gonna have to take what information. They're gonna have to pick a system that they want to use and apply it to this site instead of just using it as just an arbitrary figure that comes out of the state's stormwater manual. And I think they realize that. I think they just put that in there for different options potentially that they were looking at. Steve Cleason: Well, I know you want to be realistic about this. Quantitative information in most of the engineering field is remove of rates. There is very little information on actual, you know, you're going to end up with this amount left. You're based on your background information and system evaluations on remove of rates. You use terms like all and shall be and ... monitoring wells for example. There's going to be influences from the adjacent properties that don't carry even nearly the same sensitivity that we're going to be doing with the stormwater. And how those affect those monitoring wells and all areas that we deem into this. There's also contamination of your rainwater before it even hits the site. ... talk to some of the environmental people involved part of what we're doing on the Phase II was to resolve some the issues from the Ohio and the factories downstream from us. They have nothing to do with what's generated from our site. Supervisor Thorpe: Well we know currently what the impacts of everything around this site are on the aquifer. On the quality of the water. Steve Cleason: I understand. Supervisor Thorpe: And we can presume then that you're going to have to deal with what impact your facility adds to that. So, don't come back to us and say, well, you know, everything is going to be just dandy because everything around here is a potential source of contamination too. 31(o MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 8 Steve Cleason: We will do that. If we look at the information and set up a good standard that is reasonable with the help of the Health Department, the DEC, your consultants of what is reasonable in respect to developing it. And that may be based on whatever technology is available at the time, and treatment facilities and different treatment abilities. But, I'm not saying that you're going to get to a level where somebody is going to be able to say you're gonna have 0.2 grams per million left when you're done with this analysis. ... You know whatever goes in this is what percentage is expected to be removed. Supervisor Thorpe: Well, you may have to get into a system which is not available as an off the shelf facility ... Steve Cleason: I would hope that the same standard that you set for Wal-Mart is going to be the standard for development in the Town. That we're not going to be held at a standard that's unreasonable for one applicant over and above everybody else. Attorney Folmer: That's not the intention. That's not the intention, and the implication that it is, is quite frankly upsetting to me. Steve Cleason: I'm sorry but it sounded. Attorney Folmer: We know, from a technological point and our history in the past, that to insure certain things is not technically capable nor is it required under the SEQR regulations. Insurance is not what we're talking about. And I understand that there will be standards that you will be presenting in this document that deal with technological ability as of the date that you make that submission. That's all we're going to ask for. But we want to be sure that those submissions are specific so that we can analyze them appropriately. That's all we're saying. There will be no standard implied to you that is any different than anybody else. The standard for everybody when you build on this aquifer is going to be very high. Steve Cleason: I agree. Nick Renzi: Steve, is the storm system a standard piece of equipment that you plan ... Steve Cleason: It is one device. Let me explain what we were trying to do with ... James Trasher: ... I guess this goes back to what John said about .... Supervisor Thorpe: Let's not get into details. James. Trasher: ... again the details of one type of application versus another. And we can have those discussions when they really pick down the process. James Bugh, Planning Board Member: I need to step in here. John Folmer and ... both said that we need to have some measurements on the aquifer and the percentage of the land covered. More importantly than the percentage of the aquifer is the percentage of the recharge area. They are two distinctive different areas. Attorney Folmer: Thank you Jim. Thank you. Supervisor Thorpe: Yeah, not ... the whole groundmass of the aquifer is not rechargeable. This could be regarded as a point source. Nick Renzi: Just a thought, again I apologize. ...right now and I could jump ahead ... but what is the level of water quality right now in those monitoring wells before any construction. Five years from now if there's a Supercenter there compare it to what was there when it was just an open field. We should have that background. Councilman Testa: There is some wells there. Jamie am I right about that? There is wells there ... what's the young lady's name? Nick Renzi: You know it's too bad that Pat Reidy didn't come here. I really expected him to ... James Trasher: Well that's something that they would have to figure out what level. When we give them standards if they want to go and do something to get background data information because they feel it's gonna be beneficial. 317 MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 9 Steve Cleason: It's something we'd also have to get another step further because we don't want to put a monitoring well when later on you're telling us that you want something else done. We want to make sure it's something you can utilize over a timeline. I understand what you're saying about the background. We can work around that. Attorney Folmer: Can we talk about traffic? Councilman Rocco: Does that include public safety? Attorney Folmer: No. That's another item. When we do the traffic study, and when the traffic study is done, are you going to include the easterly intersection of Bennie Road in that traffic study and its effect on Owego Street in the City? And if you aren't, would you please? Steve Cleason: We had done in the original Bennie Road and 215. Is that the intersection? Attorney Folmer: Yeah. That's the one. Steve Cleason: That was already in the original traffic study. So we would intend, you know, based on this to update the traffic counts unless we find some other background information verifying that this is still warranted. But at this point we're intending to recount. We'll do that when you've identified all the counts required. Attorney Folmer: And the reason I'm concerned about that is because there are some people who have utilized that method of getting to this site as opposed to the Route 281/Route 13 program. They'll be coming down Owego Street to 215 to Starr Road, is that the one, or Bennie Road and then down that way. And as I recall the plan, there's an entrance that you're proposing on Bennie Road for quote delivery purposes. But you're gonna find I think that other ... Steve Cleason: No it's strictly for the ... just a more or less an emergency backup access point to Bennie Road and it would allow for access for anyone on Bennie to get to the traffic signal. Nick Renzi: As I recall Steve, the ... is heavy-duty blacktop. And that path to Bennie Road .... Steve Cleason: Again I don't want to get into the details but we're not ... all of the truck traffic ... and there would be a sign that way or whatever for caution. We would do that only because it's a road through and we intended to see higher traffic because people from Bennie Road would probably utilize the signal to make a left turn if they're going to Cortland. So people could get out of there protected and that's why we would have done that. James Trasher: Right. That's part of their analysis in terms of traffic. What they need to talk about is their potential internal traffic movement and their anticipated movements. So there's two parts of traffic. Internal traffic movements. Driveway locations for out parcels. Those type of internal traffic, you know, anticipated routes for truck movements in there. Making sure you have the proper, you know, the ability to get those trucks through plus emergency vehicles. And I would say the DOT could not be here today. That within the next week their professionals and our professionals, because we're located in Syracuse, sit down with their design group and determine all the required locations that would be, need to be looked at. Driveways plus intersections, because for me to tell you right now that Clough Harbour says x, y and z, it really comes to the DOT because of the impact. But if there's other roads that the Town feels that need to be looked at, you know 215 and Starr Road, you know, different intersections that are local or County routes, I would say put those on the table today. The state routes and the intersections and the length where they're gonna have to go up the road to look at signal timings and potential mitigation measures, the DOT will have to be in contact with them. Nick Renzi: One area, the Build Now New York site. What is the relationship and impact with the Build Now New York site .... Attorney Folmer: And I suppose what happens to the improvement, whatever that means, of Route 13 and Route 281 if and when it ever happens. There's also the. You have to be a little concerned on Bennie Road about the intersections that enter into that PUD up the road. MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 10 James Trasher: Now just the one thing that is good to take away for the Planning Board members that are here. When they get in to redoing the traffic impact study they have to take a look at background traffic. And what we're gonna define as background traffic legally is any application that's in prior to this that you know is going to be constructed. So, if there's something out there that, you know, there could be a 500 lot residential subdivision that someone might have talked about but it might not be on the books. We can't have them incorporate that into the traffic study. So if there's something that's out there that's of major significance that we want them to incorporate as part of their background traffic data to see how it impacts the signals we can let them know now. So if there's something that you know about. Nick Renzi: Build Now New York. Steve Cleason: Is there an application before anyone on that? Nick Renzi: Yeah. Attorney Folmer: Is there? On Build Now? No. Nick Renzi: Well no. Steve Cleason: I mean we might be agreeable to look at it as, you know not as our impact, but what would ... the possibilities they would want to look at if we could get some. We would need some information from them though. Without an application we have nothing to look at. Attorney Folmer: Right. Correct. Nick Renzi: Would it be okay John to have them contact Linda Hartsock and let her recommend to where they are in that cycle ... James Trasher: We could try to get that information. Attorney Folmer: I don't think there's any problem at all in advising that they contact Linda to discuss what at least is proposed for that area. Walt Kalina: I think it might be as appropriate to talk with Dan Dineen as well. Attorney Folmer: Yes, and Dan Dineen at the County Planning Department. Councilman Rocco: I think it's important to also incorporate knowing that if the Superstore is approved the Lowe's will then naturally follow. And the traffic that they're going to be adding to the situation should be, I think, somehow taken into consideration for your ... Steve Cleason: We already did add ... James Trasher: That's something that because part of their discussions about redaptive reuse of their building so you don't have a blank storefront. I think they're incorporating it because it's something that they've acknowledged that Lowe's would ... following ... Steve Cleason: And as much as that is true, remember our background traffic is in the traffic count ... So, theoretically some of our traffic will only shift over here. So, we might find out the background actually drops because the existing Wal-Mart might generate more traffic than Lowe's will. So those are all things we'll look at though. Councilman Testa: James how about the safety of the shoppers? James Trasher: Well, I guess that is probably the next, the health and safety. Anything in regards to traffic that is ... Councilman Rocco: You know, one road also, the Limehollow Road that feeds people in from Ithaca off of ... on McLean Road. I would like to see McLean Road and Limehollow and that awful S-turn down there on that road going to McLean — McLean Road... . Walt Kalina: Our traffic engineer would ask that that be included in their study. 319 MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 11 James Trasher: Any other one that could have? Steve Cleason: I agree with you. I think it's something the DOT will tell us .... Attorney Folmer: Want to talk about public safety? James Trasher: Public safety, because two people have wanted to talk here so let them go. Councilman Rocco: I do. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm excited about this because what I would like to see if able to be king like he says for a minute, and that would be to have a police substation located at the Wal-Mart Supercenter. I would like to see what kind of increased incidents the police might expect. Traffic. I'm not talking about traffic, you know, I'm talking about purse snatches, people running off with merchandise ... Supervisor Thorpe: Crime. Councilman Rocco: Crime. Thank you. James Trasher: So you want to know the impact ... Councilman Rocco: I'm quite concerned about that. Yes. James Trasher: ... of the public safety system, because what they need to address as part of safety there is what impacts their Supercenter would have on providing services in terms of police protection, ambulance protection, fire protection. So you want them to address that and if it's found out through their research and documentation that they have someway of providing a substation that would be something that would be a mitigation measure to the potential impacts. Councilman Rocco: I think that that's an important issue to me I know. And I think that there's only like two patrol cars on the road at any one time for the Sheriff. If he's got one in Truxton and the other one at the other end of the County and we've got a problem over there, and with all of the additional traffic and business you're going to be doing over there, I think that we really need to know what you would anticipate. Steve Cleason: We'd probably look at the existing incidents and the existing store and see how that would relate to the Supercenter. I think that would be a good start. Attorney Folmer: The other part of that is lighting. I'd want to be sure that the lighting scheme is sufficient so that 1) it doesn't glare out the people at the PUD and yet provides lighting safety for people who might be traveling though and around the parking lot after dark. Steve Cleason: We'll do a very thorough analysis on it because it's one of the biggest items that we address in our ... reports. Councilman Rocco: Can we talk about the specifics of the lighting? Downward lighting versus ... Attorney Folmer: I hope not. Steve Cleason: We'll be using vertical light fixture with ... Councilman Rocco: It's important. Steve Cleason: ... we use night sky requirements. The latest night sky requirements where the angles do not go part the 90-degree mark. The big evaluation would be from then is getting into the details, I think that can wait... . James Trasher: All these comments, like, the big thing is you would not have a big concern about the pedestrian traffic out there, the people shopping out there, and having adequate protection ... if someone locks their keys in their car. What's the ability to get police control down there to do it? Or if someone... Councilman Testa: They should be there full time really. To be honest with you, they should be there full time. 3 z.o MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 12 James Trasher: That would be hard on ... (flip audio tape over) Walt Kalina: ... I think one of the important things relative to any type of mitigation whatever it is, is what the applicant will be responsible for in terms of installation and ongoing maintenance and operation versus what might, if anything, be expected of the Town. I think that needs to be stipulated. It's really important. If and whether there's any cost at all to the Town. Steve Cleason: ... We typically do a full evaluation of the taxes generated versus the reasons that we would be calling upon that being any of the emergency services as well as the other one as an acceptable way to evaluate that and give it to you guys for evaluation. That way you can look at that with the other information and see if this area for some reason has a higher warrant than another. Attorney Folmer: James, in the criterion in Item 5, Public Services, are we talking now about fire and ambulance and that sort of thing as opposed to utilities? Water, sewer, etcetera? James Trasher: Right. Attorney Folmer: Okay. James Trasher: Public Services are the things that you and I say ... Walt Kalina: But it could be something as simple as who maintains, who takes care of snow ... off the sidewalks ... Steve Cleason: Can I back up to the water issue please because one of the big ... on that and the subdivision where they're having the issues with the elevation. Because it could become an elevation issue over where you're talking about having just an increase in background pressure to the entire system. It may not be feasible depending on what you're at now. Does anyone have that information of what the elevations are, and are there ... Supervisor Thorpe: Yeah, our engineer. James Trasher: Pete Alteri, who is the Water Superintendent, has detail. His knowledge of the system is great. So, all that information can be pulled. Nick Renzi: He's got the elevation. He also has specific houses that have low pressure ... Steve Cleason: ... standardized data so that we're looking at apples to apples in respect to where we are. Because you might find out ... 150 feet in the air and that's why there's no ... James Trasher: Based on its elevation .... Anything else then? We'll have additional thoughts as it goes into what's required typically under public services. Anything else from either of the agencies here? Attorney Folmer: Lets talk about the potential reuse of the Wal-Mart building. Don't we understand that there is a contract in existence that assuming that this application is granted, the present facility is going to be sold to Lowe's who are then gonna occupy ... Steve Cleason: ... and obviously some of that is privileged, but I think you've been provided with enough information to demonstrate that that's the case. Attorney Folmer: I thought that was true. James Trasher: That really ties in to like one of the last ... the character of the neighborhood and what, you know, the potential reuse of existing Wal-Mart site and building and then also you can get into discussions of the aesthetics and different things that promote the character of the community in this area. So those are things that Walt will address as part of his portion of putting this Final Scoping Document together. So there is adequate information for the Board to review it. How they're going to screen through different types of screening and buffering, and aesthetic appearances. It's going to be tough to hide roof mounted air-conditioning fixtures because if you're 3ZI MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 13 in Walden Oaks you're above the height of building. There's things that they can do typically on other buildings, but on a flat roof it's kind of difficult. Nick Renzi: Steve, hasn't the existing Wal-Mart facility been sold officially to Lowe's? Steve Cleason: I mean I'm not in the position to speak to the details of it, but I think again, I think we can probably provide some type of proof of the statements we made beforehand dealing with Lowe's. Nick Renzi: ... probably ... Attorney Kelly Pronti for Harter, Secrest & Emery, LLP representing Wal-Mart: I think that there's a right of reversion in the event that if we're not able to come here we will not be ... Attorney Folmer: And James you're gonna talk about the code ... and the zoning requirements as part of this so that they can indicate where that falls in that ... James Trasher: Correct. Nick Renzi: ... do you want to get into the building aesthetics or is that something that Walt, you understand what we are looking for as Planning Board members ... Steve Cleason: I think that normally the way we've done this in the past is that you guys have already indicated to us that we're going to meet the visual concerns of both boards. And we would say that we're providing you with a list of upgrades of the facility as posed in the DEIS. But, we understand that the Board will want to further evaluate the significant ... of that ... and that's going to be an ongoing process. We're definitely going to be open. I can't tell you this is it with the DEIS because there's going to be so many different personalities that they want.... Nick Renzi: The last time we met, I don't know whether you gave it ... but this is not what we wanted. I hope I'm speaking for the Planning Board. We don't want another big building.... If it's going to happen it's going to happen with some careful.... We don't want to have ... signs. Because.... Steve Cleason: But you understand there's going to be a lot of different people on the Board who have different opinions and we're going to work around those and try to get, you know, all the people's opinions and hopefully come to an agreement on a facade and signage. James Trasher: But that's something though that's ... once you get through the SEQR process then you get into a site plan. And so that's where those things would be hammered out. But they need to address that as far as the SEQR application as well. Attorney Folmer: James, could we go through the Part II please. I want to just be sure that those areas that we have identified as a positive or affirmative answers in that Part II that we have addressed to be sure. Councilman O'Donnell: ... Attorney Folmer: Yeah. Physical change we've talked about. Any unique or, no not.... Groundwater quality and quantity we talked about. Drainage flow pattern to surface water. I assume that will be discussed as part of the overall discussion of the water situation. James Trasher: What page are you on now? Attorney Folmer: I'm on page 14 out of page 21. Well, I'm just trying to skip through and find the ones we answered yes to. James Trasher: So we talked about drainage flow patterns and subsurface water issues. Attorney Folmer: Air quality. Did we discuss anything that would deal with that? 3 2 z- MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 14 James Trasher: We talked about noise but air quality is the same type. We'll give them a definition of what we're looking for in terms of air quality and that gets into Supercenter that probably has restaurants and we want to make sure that there's enough type of equipment to make sure that people on the hillside don't smell ... Attorney Folmer: Grease. French fries. Onion rings. What about one of my favorites? The threatened and endangered species consideration. Steve Cleason: I believe we already have a letter. Attorney Folmer: I thought you did. Don't you also have one for non -threatened or non - endangered species? Steve Cleason: We do.... We also have a ... letter on.... James Trasher: But they need to talk about that under vegetation and wildlife so that is just something that they have to go though and discard. Attorney Folmer: We also talked about aesthetic resources that Nick has talked about and some of that we'll deal with. What about archaeological resources? Page 16 guys. Steve Cleason: ... James Trasher: Yep. I don't know what they've done out there.... So they're going to have to include that as part of their appendices and talk about what they found and what they didn't find. Attorney Folmer: Transportation we talked about. Sources of, community sources of fuel or energy supply. Page 18. James Trasher: Yeah. Because of their facility they're gonna have to.... They just have to make sure that, you know, I'll say sort of like little served type letters from local utility providers that they can have adequate electrical services.... That type of stuff they just need to make sure they're covered. Attorney Folmer: And then we talked about noise, and we talked about that, and we talked about public safety. And your document should indicate that originally the impact on public health was indicated not to be a, not a significant impact. But at the Town Board meeting of April 6 h it was changed and it was indicated that it was. And so we talked about public safety this afternoon. We've also talked about the concern with the characters of the existing community. And we have identified that there will be controversy. There are very few things I know for sure but that's one of them. Nick Renzi: ... water quality. The gas station is not part of this application. Attorney Pronth Correct. Councilman Testa: Not now or ever. Supervisor Thorpe: Forever. Councilman O'Donnell: ... service station. Nick Renzi: Also in that regard, one of the things we have come across the Planning Board ... outlines .... Also storage. Not even storage. But just the sale of fertilizer, which currently is all left out in the weather at the current facilities. James Trasher: Fertilizers are left out in the weather? That would be odd just because once rain hits them they would.... Attorney Folmer: They're in bags. They're in bags. James Trasher: Yeah, but I think they're covered. They've got to be probably under cover. Nick Renzi: I'll double check. I don't think so. 3z3 MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 15 Attorney Folmer: I don't think so either. Steve Cleason: I'll look into that. But what's typically seen, if you drive by the bags when you walk up a lot of them aren't fertilizer but they're the stone mulch and the bags of all those inert items, and that the fertilizer is typically stored up underneath the roof. If you find different than that please let me know and we'll immediately contact the store manager because that's not the way ... Attorney Folmer: And the other thing, James, is these storage trailers. We've got to have that addressed. Steve Cleason: We've already ... we'll get to talk about that.... James Trasher: Yeah, that's under the aesthetic appealing and we had that initial pre-scoping session where we let them know of that concern. Attorney Folmer: You ought to. Go ahead Nick. I'm sorry. Nick Renzi: I think part of the PUD.... The out parcels should be defined.... Steve Cleason: I mean there is no specific use. And we could put an example of what might go on there. And I think we did provide a concept of how it might lay out. But we normally would leave it to the end for the user to give specific detail. Attorney Pronti: We are limited by what's provided.... James Trasher: In terms of the Traffic Impact Study, typically the engineer will take the worst - case scenario and use that as part of the Traffic Impact Study. So, drive thru restaurants typically ... Unknown Male: They're not allowed ... James Trasher: Okay, so whatever the worst -case use is under the PUD then they would probably use that. Steve Cleason: They might suggest that we utilize that anyways, and then if the Town ever decided at some point ... more intense traffic use if that was something they desired then you have the option without having.... Nick Renzi: Is this ... 24-hour? Steve Cleason: Yes, twenty-four seven. Yes. Nick Renzi: And the noise study will reflect what's going to be happening. James Trasher: Probably the biggest concern is going to be for operations in terms of noise is people say they unload trucks at three o'clock in the morning. And so that's when we're going to look at ambience, noise, background noise levels ... a truck delivery. So, Sally who is sleeping in her bedroom on the backside of her property doesn't wake up to. So, that is something they're going to look at the worst -case scenario over there as well. Nick Renzi: As far as traffic, is there a plan to connect the new Wal-Mart to the K-Mart plaza? We talked about that. Attorney Pronti: No. Steve Cleason: We have as shown as the proposal ... and it's open to discussion if that is the right location. We've also, we're willing to construct it up to the property line. Other than that, I mean, we don't have the ability to go on their private property and construct it beyond that location. Attorney Folmer: We talked about that at the last meeting that you could build to property line, and that the other side could be convinced to do it from their side. But you don't have the ability to go on their land or require them to do that. Steve Cleason: We make ... some of the review that they have to do on any internal movements to see if that is the best way to do that. 3Zy MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 16 James Trasher: And then it's really up to the Planning Board, you know, if Wal-Mart was to come, if they built it up to the property line in future applications you would have to make it a provision of the neighboring property owners to bring their access up to the adjacent property. They can go to them, but you can't get a guy to put $10,000 worth of pavement down if they don't want to. Steve Cleason: And the only unfortunate part of that too is that they make agreements with other uses within that facility not to have certain uses on the property. And some people consider a cross - connection would be a use... . Nick Renzi: ... Attorney Folmer: Yeah. We have a prohibition against those and in the past we have been advised that Wal-Mart make use of those facilities for storage of lay -away items. We have a very deep concern about that. And as a matter of fact, we have in fact had to enforce our regulation against trailers against a variety of people. Councilman Rocco: They have in the past used trailers. Nick Renzi: And they have been cooperative in getting rid of them. Attorney Folmer: Yes they have. And they have been very cooperative in getting rid of them when we asked them to do so. James Trasher: I think here, what we're going to ask for is in their incorporation of Lowe's into site plan to make them either non-existent or appear to be non-existent based on improvements to the site if they should be needed. Attorney Folmer: And I think at the last meeting, if I recall correctly, Steve there was some conversation of what you were going to do maybe at the east side of the building either to eliminate the use of trailers or to figure out some way so that they wouldn't be visible. Or something like that. Steve Cleason: My first statement was that this prototype has been designed to increase internal storage of the facility as a whole and it allows for ... to minimize the use. It really becomes a regional item then, not lay-aways. And depending on the area, what we've done in the past is we have incorporated ... walls in other ways to completely hide the use of those and then designate it as a ... specific area as long as it is acceptable to the Board. And then we've even gone so far as to limit those to the October -January period ... that's our major concern is that time frame. So, we are willing to work within those type of guidelines with you. James Trasher: That's something that will be addressed in the DEIS and people are going to determine if it's significant ... if it's a mitigation measure they approve of. Attorney Folmer: Do you have a copy of Mr. Powell's letter on behalf of CAPE? James Trasher: Yes. Attorney Folmer: Would you take a look at that please. James Trasher: Now or later. Attorney Folmer: Right now. Right now. I've gone through this and in my uneducated fashion I have suggested some things that I think are not relevant to an environmental study and I would like to identify them for you so that you would pay particular attention to those to determine whether or not they should be in. And I'm starting on page 2 with numbers 19 and 20. James Trasher: No. Attorney Folmer: Both of them have to do with labor practices. James Trasher: Correct. Attorney Folmer: Then on page 4 ... 74 through 78. 3zs MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 17 James Trasher: No. Attorney Folmer: Okay. James Trasher: Correct Walt? Walt Kalina: I don't have a copy of the letter. James Trasher: This one is like impact on area employment levels, impact on existing area businesses especially nursery, sports, pharmacies, auto services, supermarkets ... Attorney Folmer: I understand those concerns, but I don't think that they are environmental concerns and necessarily belong in this document. James Trasher: I concur that they're not valid procedure related discussions. Attorney Folmer: And again. And lastly from 85 to 92. James Trasher: I'll just go, like #75, especially nurseries. Wal-Mart currently exists with a nursery so ... Attorney Folmer: Well, I'm not suggesting that I am the end all at determining whether or not those things are relevant or not, but to me they appear not to be. So I would like you to examine those in particular to determine whether or not those need to be included. And I would rely on your judgment as to whether or not they need to be. Nick Renzi: ... go through a economic impact study ... Walt Kalina: Well actually, what's happened on some cases that I'm aware of is where economics plays a role is where it can be shown that it has a direct effect on community character. And I know for example that ... where Wal-Mart needed to consider economic impacts on the community ... businesses. Nick Renzi: ... Where does that take place ... Walt Kalina: Actually, it could come under SEQR under community character. Attorney Folmer: And there is a community character section in here. Councilman Rocco: I have one question that I never get answered, because I always forget to ask it. Many people are wondering, and there is a lot of talk going on about is a Wal-Mart Supercenter, if it does come to town, is it a 24-hour operation? Attorney Pronti:... Councilman Rocco: So it's a 24-hour operation. Attorney Folmer: Seven days, 24-hours. Attorney Pronti: Yes, seven days a week. Councilman Rocco: And your deliveries ... in different locations are they held to seven or eight o'clock in the morning till six o'clock at night or are there.... Steve Cleason: ... that 99% of the cases have been there are no limitations on delivery. However there has been some sensitive areas where we have worked with hours of delivery limitations or other ways to limit noise or other concerns of impacts. But I guess what we do is try to identify that concern and again one of the things would be the noise study. For instance we want to evaluate that first to see if there is even an impact on the property line before we go to say what kind of ... Councilman Rocco: Well again this seems to me to be a special area because it's like an amphitheater. You've got those houses up on the hill and not much you can.... 3ZG MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 18 James Trasher: Well that fits into noise and how they're going to mitigate noise. And if they find that typical deliveries are at five in the morning, and I don't know when they are, let's just say five in the morning, and they make too much noise that impacts the neighboring properties they might have to say we have to wait until nine o'clock in the morning or eight thirty in the morning to start delivery operations. So that is something that will be addressed as part of their noise and probably character of the community section, somehow intertwined. Councilman Rocco: You know, I was up there in the backyard of one of the people up on the hill and just as we were talking a dump truck came in backwards and you could here the safety horn blaring and you know, I'm just concerned about all kinds of trucks coming in there backing up and making those noises which reverberate through the valley. Attorney Folmer: Interesting Nick ... just in case you haven't read it, the decision up in Lake Placid was based on the fact that ninety some odd percent of the revenue of the Lake Placid area was done by tourist business. Seasonal tourist business. And based on that the character of the neighborhood in the opinion in Appellate Division ... written by ... upheld the denial of the permit on that basis. Supervisor Thorpe: Anything else? Anything else anyone wants to bring up? Nick Renzi: ... to get back to the economic impact ... Walt Kalina: ... Nick Renzi: Will there be an economic impact study? I'd like to see one. Supervisor Thorpe: I think that this does have concern ... James Trasher: What's the scope on the economic impact? This is me just speaking. We have a current Wal-Mart that's located out there. What they're adding is expanding slightly that facility and adding a grocery store to the facility. So, the impacts are gonna be on Tops. They're not providing new shoes. They're not ... and this is just from our look at it. So the impact isn't on grocery stores. Nick Renzi: The Supercenter is not going to provide anything that doesn't already exist.... Whatever it is the Supercenter offers you can go out there ... and get it. Councilman Rocco: It might cost you $700 as opposed to $400 in some cases. James Trasher: But you currently have, they currently have a Wal-Mart that sells blue jeans. I don't think the Supercenter is gonna take the price and go from $9.97 to $9.95. Nick Renzi: ... you can go out and get tires right now ... Supercenter. James Trasher: It's just you get into an economic impact study it can, you know, we're doing a comp plan in the Village of Liverpool where they hired specialists from the Baltimore area to come up and do purely an analysis for a comp plan which is far greater than I think what you're asking these guys to do. That's why you really need to scope what you're talking about economic impacts. Nick Renzi: ... and also what happens with social services and the ... Attorney Pronti: And without a doubt we are going to provide an analysis to that degree ... indicating the property tax, the sales tax and the way that ... as a result of what we'd be producing. Steve Cleason: We'll do the net evaluation but I guess we don't, we want to avoid going into a competitive evaluation of economics. I mean, because there is no way for anyone to predict how a market area is going to respond to anyone coming in to the market. Some people change the waysthey do their operations and they are actually more successful. Attorney Folmer: Nick when you say, when you say you would like to see an economic impact study just exactly what do you mean by that? That, I think, is what I'd like to know. Nick Renzi: Well ... what is the cost to the Town of having a Supercenter? 3Z7 MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 19 Attorney Folmer: Okay. James Trasher: They need to evaluate that under public services like police protection and all that type of stuff. Nick Renzi: What is the benefit to the Town the school districts and the County relative to taxes? In the old ... the Town would get $1,674 per year after year ten. The school district would get $38,450 a year after year ten. And the County would get $60,931 after year ten. Thank you very much. Councilman Rocco: Doesn't everybody that comes into the Town with a business get similar tax breaks over that period of time. So if it was an industry ... Attorney Folmer: Has anybody asked for a tax break in this one? Attorney Pronti: The only thing that we would be interested in taking advantage of would be the 485B exemption, which everybody is ... Attorney Folmer: Everybody has. Attorney Pronti: But in addition to that ... Councilman Rocco: Is that what you're talking about Nick? Nick Renzi: ... Councilman Rocco: But if Borg Warner built a plant they would get the same breaks right? Town Clerk Snyder: No. Attorney Pronti: With the 485B yes. James Trasher: And they might be located in an Empire Zone. They're not asking for Empire Zone status or any of that. Attorney Pronti: Nothing. Nick Renzi: But I guess my point ... bonanza, if you will, to the Town of $1,674. Councilman Rocco: But if you look at the sales tax issue though. You can't leave that out. Nick Renzi: The sales tax issue, it doesn't really exist because there's no tax on food. And what they sell is already being sold so instead of... and sales taxes from that ... Steve Cleason: But there's already supplying of benefits for that existing store too. So that kind of wipes that out as well. I mean, you're saying that well you're not going to get any more money because you're already getting it from Wal-Mart. Well you're already supplying them with the same services right now too. So, it's not like you're gonna add any more services. What you would do is get the new generation from Lowe's and whatever they would generate theoretically if they were allowed to open up. Nick Renzi: Lowe's would generate major retail sale taxes, but they'll take business away from places that sell the same thing that they sell right now. The JTS's the Builder's Best, the Home Value. They all pay sales taxes. So if you buy it there, you buy it cheaper at Lowe's, which is good, but the sales tax revenue doesn't really change a whole lot. Attorney Folmer: ... because prices are lower. 81/4 % of a lower price used to be 81/4 % ... Steve Cleason: We are going to evaluate the income versus the cost of the services. If it's not acceptable to the Board and that at that time that we submit it let us know. We're going to evaluate that. 3 28 MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 20 Nick Renzi: ... I'd like to see the impact of the sales taxes to the Town, school districts, the County. I'd like to see the impact on social services and the cost of social services — fire, police protection, these types of things. As a taxpayer I'm interested in what it's gonna cost us. Councilman Rocco:' You know one thing that is of interest to me is exactly that. Is what the business owners think. I talked with everybody from this morning somebody owns a carpet store to somebody who owns a paint store. And they basically are, you know, bring em' on. You know, they just feel that they're ready to compete. The Mayor of Cortland came out, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, about over a year ago and said we're not going to have any problem with this. Bring em' on. I don't know. I wish Mr. VanGorder was here from the Chamber of Commerce to talk about what his members think. I'm sure we have it written somewhere. I can recall some of his comments. But the downtown businesses also I would like to see some kind of an understanding of what they collectively feel. Because everyone's saying, well business is going to be adversely impacted. The fellow I had at my house this morning looking at rugs at my place said that everybody that would be affected and that would go out of business has already gone .out of business. Nick Renzi: I've heard the same thing. Attorney Folmer: I have too. I have too. Nick Renzi: I've heard the same thing from people saying bring them on. I don't agree with the cavalier statements of the Mayor that it should be no problem. These things have got to be quantified. Councilman Rocco: Well, no, I know that, and I'm glad that we are doing it, but I wish that the Mayor would be here today. Supervisor Thorpe: This will all come out at the public debate after we've gotten through.... Attorney Folmer: How much time is consistent to provide written comment to the Board subsequent to this meeting? Ten days? Today is the eleventh. James Trasher: Why don't you say until next Friday. Attorney Pronti: There is no time limit in connection with scoping ... Attorney Folmer: James, Friday is ten days. James Trasher: Friday is ten days. Nick Renzi: ... Attorney Folmer: ... got to have it next Friday. James Trasher: ... if what we're waiting for is if there's any involved or interested agencies that want to submit things that should be considered as part of the Scoping Document. Not technical in nature. Just things that should be addressed, you know table of contents type information. We will incorporate that into the Final'Scoping Document and submit it. Nick Renzi: Okay but you've got the input from this scoping... James Trasher: We've gotten the input this, from the Boards.... Nick Renzi: ... Attorney Folmer: Public input. Isn't that a ten-day period? Attorney Pronti: ... so that letters ... any responses that are directed to this Board. James Trasher: A letter to who? 3z9 MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 21 Attorney Pronti: I guess to the other involved agencies so they know the time limitation in which they need to provide._ James Trasher: Can you? Attorney Folmer: You, because I've got to be out of town tomorrow and I want to get it to them as soon as we can. James Trasher: Yeah. It can be sent out. Nick Renzi: ... to the applicant ... Attorney Folmer: No. James is going to prepare a letter that just says if you've got something you want to add to this let us know. Okay. Nick Renzi: ... if you're going to generate a letter ... James Trasher: We're going to generate a letter. Once we get all of the comments, because what we have to do is, the lead agency needs to give back to the project sponsors a Final Scoping Document. So once we get the ... any last comments Walt and I will be working on the Final Scoping Document. We will take any final comments and put them in to the Final Scoping Document and then submit it to the applicant within 60 days from when we deemed it a Positive Declaration. Nick Renzi: That Scoping Document - we'll all have a chance to look at it before it goes to the applicant. James Trasher: The lead agency will. Nick Renzi: The lead agency will. James Trasher: So these guys right here will have an opportunity and none of the involved or interested agencies really have that ability under ... Attorney Folmer: Unless we want to give it to them. Attorney Pronti: And I guess at the meeting technically you would be adopting that particular document so if you.... And I guess that leads me to my next question, which is if the Board would be in the position to consider the scoping document at the end of the month? So that ... Supervisor Thorpe: No. Attorney Folmer: No. Because the next meeting at the end of the month falls a week from tonight which makes it within the ten day period. You're looking at the earliest at the 15 of June, and that's assuming that James can put together the Scoping Document. Attorney Pronti: Well there's a certain requirement in that it needs to be provided to the applicant within 60 days. Attorney Folmer: Can you get it done? James Trasher: Oh yeah. The first week of June it will be done and it will be back. So we're under ... we don't want to lose the opportunity as lead agency to give them the Scoping Document and let them resubmit. Attorney Folmer: No, we're not going to let them do it by themselves. Attorney Pronti: I'm just trying to ... Attorney Folmer: I know Kelly. I know. Attorney Pronti: So I guess we're going to be looking at the first meeting in June ... Attorney Folmer: Yes. And that should be June ... 330 MAY 11, 2005 WAL-MART SCOPING SESSION PAGE 22 Councilman O'Donnell: That'll be in Blodgett Mills. Attorney Folmer: That'll be in Blodgett Mills. You've never been to Blodgett ... Supervisor Thorpe: Anything else? Unknown Person in Audience: ... Attorney Folmer: No. That's why we're gonna have comments within ten days. From anybody. Supervisor Thorpe: Thank you then. The Scoping Session for the Wal-Mart Supercenter PUD was adjourned at 2:45 p.m. Respectfully submitted, 4aren Q. Snyder, RMC Town Clerk Town of Cortlandville I 1