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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMN-BZA-1970-08-11 BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS, CITY OF ZTHACA, CITY HALL, ITHACA, NEW YORK AUGUST 110 1970 APPEALS NOS. 883 & 886 PRESENT: JOHN BENTKOWSKI, Chairman RALPH P. BALDINI FRANK ALO JAMES ROGAN BEVERLY MARTIN ANTHONY PETITTI EDISON JONES, Building Commissioner & Secretary THE CHAIR: Calls meeting to order with full Board present. This is a special meeting held for the Appeal of Ithaca Housing Authority, Case #8839 Appeal of Ithaca Housing Authority, 113 South Cayuga Street, Ithaca, New York, for an exception at Titus Flats, under provisions Section 7, Columns 5 and 9 in an R-3 District. The members of the Board present are Ralph P. Baldini, Punk Alo, James Rogan, Beverly Martin, our new member, Anthony Petitti, Edison Jones as Building Commdssioner and myself as Chairman, John Bentkowski. This Board is operating under the provisions as set forth in the City Charter of the City of Ithaca and the Board of Zoning Appeals, City of Ithaca. I still just add that we will strongly enforce our ruling avoiding extraneous remarks and that we will conduct this meeting with a minimum of interruptions, and I am sure you all realize that this is a re-hearing of Case 883, with Mr. Robert Williamson pr966nting -ths appeal for the Ithaca Housing Authority. ROBERT I. WILLIAMSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and if any one can not hear me, please notify the Chairman. As The Chai.m&.Airs stited, , this is an appeal by the Ithaca Housing Authority, for an exception to the requirements of Section 7, Column 59 of the Ordinance, which requires one parking space for one unit, and exception to Column 9 of the Ordinance which allays only four stories, the Housing Authority requesting fifteen stories. At this time I call the Executive Director of the Ithaca Housing Authority. 2LVID AM&W� having first been duly scorn, answeroid as follows: BY MR. WILLIAMSON: �.. Q. What is your full name? A. David Armstrong. i -2- N%001 Q. What is your position? A. • Executive Director of Ithaca Homing Authority, Q. Did you itomplete the appeal forms necessary for this appeal to this body? A. Yes„ I did. Q. Are they an file with the Board of zoning Appeals? A. Yese they ars. Appellant's Exhibit 19 marked for identification Q. I show you Appellant's Mbit 19 marked for identification, and ask if you will please identify that? A. Veli. Q. What is that? Is that the written appeal to the .Board of Zoning Appeals requesting the exceptions as we have applied for? A. That is correct. MR. WILL AMSON: Offer in evidence. THE CHAIR: Receive. MR, WILLIAMON: Mr. Jones, do you have the copy of the notice sent to property owners within 200 feet of the proposed project? A. Yes$ I do. Appellant's Exhibit 2 marked for identification Q. I show you Appellant's Exhibit 2. marked for identification, and ask you to pleaes identify, that. A. Yes. Q. Is this the letter which was sent to the property owners within 200 feet of thei proposed projeot, concerning this appeal? A. Yes, along with a certified list of that mailing. Q. This is your signature? A. Yes. MR. WILLIAMSON: Offer in evidence. THE CHAIR: Receive. Q. Would you please identify this project by the number which it is known by in the Federal government? A. Housing Assistance Administration NY 54,-1. Q. The particular portion of the project which we are concerned with tonight is the high rise? A. That is correct. Q. Where is this project located? A. Approximately on the northeast corner of an 8-aore tract known as Titus Flats Tract. -3- Q. Can you give us a brief history of this portion of this proposed project? A. It is a project that was formulated about five years ago, with manor efforts and several thousand dollars spent on it, at one point, to ascertain the type of design that was originally talked about, which was one-story raw type housing of approximately 400 square feet, with open ends only on the front and rear. The cast as designed was fon the vicinity of $309000 per unit, which the Housing Autherrity deter- minted oould not be built because of the lack of money and the statutory room cost. Q. Would you explain the statutory room cost as defined by the Federal government? A,. It is a measure and a fined amount of money per room that can be allowed for the construction of that type of house. The most estimates at that time exceeded the statutory room costs; therefore it was necessary to re-design. Q. Can you recall the approximate statutory cost at the time the govern- ment determined the $309000 cost was excessive? A. Around $2800 per room. It is a part of our annual contributions con- tract with the Federal government. Q. Would you take a mathematical figure to compare rather than the $2800 per room? What would compare with the $30,000 the government would allow? A. You would have to take a per room ratio. I can not answer your question. Q. Your testimony is that the unit cost came out at $30,000 per unit? A. Ys. Q. And this was not approved by the Federal government Housing Admini- stration? A. That is correct. Q. About how long ago did they reject that figurer A. A little over two years. Q. What did the Housing Authority do? A. This was because of the statements made by the architects that it could not be built within the scope of the statutory room cost. We said it could. It was being done in every oommunity in the country, and on that basis we engaged new architects, who said it could be done. And here we are. We have proven it can be because the bidding proves that. i` Q. Was there a specific sum of money allovated by the Federal government for this portion of the project? A. As a total, $4029,711. Q. Under the project as it was first designed, were the cost estimates L.. in excess of that amount? A. Yes. -4- Nftwe Q. About how muoh, approximately was that? A. Welly at that time, about fifty percent (50%)• Q. So it would be nearly or near to two million dollars? A. At one point, yes. Q. Is that the reason the Federal government requested the Housing Author- ity to re-design the project? A. Yes. Q. And thereafter did the Housing Authority retain architects for r*-design of the project? A. Yes, Sargent, Webster, Crenshaw & Folley of Syracuse. Q. Did they submit a design to the Housing Authority? A. Yes, Q. Approximately what date was that? A. Preliminary sketches were brought to Ithaca about October of 196% the fall of '68. Q. Can you give us then from that point onward, a chronological order of what steps were taken before you submitted the proposed design to the local governing boards of the City of Ithaca for their approval? A. Ono* the preliminary design was presented to the Housing Authority, they made some recommendations; these were taken back to Syracuse, initiated in the program as much as we could; upon the completion the preliminary plans were brought bask; they not with the approval of the Ithaca Housing Authority and they were authorized to proceed with schematic documents. Q. Will you explain that please? A. What are here - ghat we have here are preliminary rough sketches hers. From these these were developed to sehowitios, whtsh are one step be- tween preliminary and working drawings, in the extreme detail a blue print would be. We found these acceptable. We were then to arrange a *en- fersnoe with the Housing Administration in NOW York. Q. About whan was that? A. October - November - just prior to Deoember of 1968. Q. Did you go to New York? A. Yes, we had the entire architectural staff there, about seven, along with members of the Board and Housing Authority staff, including several architects, engineers, education people, and we obtained approval for working drawings from the Housing Assistanoo Administration, and at that time had cost estimates, which looked good at that point, and received approval to proceed from the Housing Assistance Administration, and then we came back to the procedures under the Now York State Housing Law. Q Do you remember the approximate dates you sought approval of the local governing bodies? -5- N%001 A. I believe it was in the fall of 1969 about Septemeber, when we first petitioned under Section 150 of the Now York Housing Law. We began to petition the City of Ithe" Planning Hoard for their appraisal and recommendation to the Common Covneil ,of the City of Ithaca. Q, When you went before the Planning Boards September of 1969 approximately, was it with the high rise plan that you are now presenting to this Board? A. Yes. Q. Tell us briefly the findings and decision of the Planning Board of the City of Ithaca. A. As you recall, the elderly project not with one hundred percent (100%) approval of the Planning Board. I do not recall if there was even ane exception, They made a couple of recommendations - one on the elevator and I believe another that they felt would help improve the living in that structure, Q, Gan you tell us what these reoosmoidations were? A, Firsts a change in the elevator entrance, and I don't reoall the otter. Q. Was it to do with the structure and/or land or both? A. No„ it was a good suggestion - it had to do with the elevator entrance from the lobby, which some felt should face onto a different lobbyy to give persons for an ambulances privacy. Q, Did you take into consideration these recommendations of the Planning Board? A. Yes. Q, lid you direct the architects to make changes? A. Yes. Q, The Housing Authority? A, Yes. Q. Dial you follow these requests? A. To the letter. Q, Then did you return to the Planning Board for their approval? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall approximately when that was? A, November of 1969 - I believe the 18th. Q. That was the date the Planning Board took action? A. Yes, Q, Did they approve or disapprove? A. Approved it. `.. Q. Do you know the vote of the Board? A, I believe it was unanimous, -6- 1.� Q. Thereafter did you come before any other official bodies or boards with this re-designed plan? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell us what board that was? A. Again the New York State Public Housing Law, Section 1509 makes it mandatory to go to Common Council for its approval or disapproval. Q. Do you recall when you came before the Common Council? A. Yes, the same evening, November 18th, 1969. Q. After the presentation by yourself and the Housing Authority of the proposed re-design, did the Common Council take action? A. Yes. Q. What action did they take? A. They approved it unanimously. Q. Thereafter would you describe what you and/or the Housing Authority of the City of Ithaca did as far as procedure? A. Ordered the architects to proceed with working drawings and bid documents. Q. What are the three phases the architects go through? A. First, concept; second, preliminary drawings; third, schematics; fourth, bid documents. Q. DLd you then authorize the Sargent Webster firm to prepare bid documents? A. Yes. Q. Thereafter what did you do? A. About the only thing was haunt the architects. Q. For what purpose? A time schedule? A. A time aohedule to find out when we could advertise for bids. Q. When was that, approximately? A. Approximately mid-February of 1970. Q. Thereafter did you advertise for bids? A. Yes. Q. When did you advertise for bids? A. The 213t of May, 1970. Q. When were the bids opened? A. June 23rd, 1970. Q. How many bidders were there overall for this project, approximately? A. Approximately twelve. Q. Who was the low bidder? A. (R.K.) (ARKEY) ? on the general construction. . 7- Q. Who were low bidders on the electrical? The plumbing? A. Terwilliger from rseheads; plumbing was Hull of Ithaca; C. R. Evans of Horseheads, hefting and ventilating. Q. Can you give us the total cost for the high rise project only, the total bid? A. Not without looking it up. Q. Can•you give us an approximate total cost? Withdraw that question and will lot the architect answer. MR. WILLIAMSON: At this time I would part Mr. Kelly from Barg Webster Company to introduce documents, specifications and drawings into evidence. THE CRAM: We reserve the right to ask questions from Mr. Armstrong afterwards. ROBERT L. KELLY, having first been duly sworn, answered as follows: BY MR, WILLIAMSON: Q. What is your name? A. Robert L. Kelly. Q. Where do you reside? A. Syracuse, New York. Q. And your occupation? A. Architect. Q. With what firm? A. Sargent, Webster and Fb11ey. Q. You are a partner in the firm retained by the Ithaca Housing Authority to re-design this projeot, in which is included a high rise project for the elderly? A. I am an associate in the firm, yes. Q. Do you recall approximately when your firm was retained by the Ithaca Ho#W ng Authority for this project? A. Approximately August of 1966. Q. After being retained did you then enter into your *cork and do pre- liminary sketches for this particular project? A. Yes, we started schematic drawings. Appellants Exhibits 39 4 & S, marked for identification -8- Q. I show you Exhibits 39 4 and 5 and ask you to identify those, please. A. Number 3 is a perspective drawing of the high rise project, fifteen stores high. Q. I show you Exhibit 4 and ask what is that? A. Number 4 is a preliminary drawing of the first floor of the building. Q. I show you Exhibit 5 and ask what that is? A. Number 5 is a typical floor, Numbers 2 through 15, of the building. Q. How many apartment units are on each floor? A. Approximately 14 units are on each floor. Two floors have a laundry area and the top floor a lounge and observation area. Q. Would you describe a typical apartment? A. It is known as an efficiency apartment, a living-dig room, kitchen, related bedroom with adjoining bathroom, entrance way and storage closet. All 165 units in the project are identical. Appellant's Exhibit b, marked for identification Q. For purposes of brevity, will you identify Exbibit 6? A. These are the final contract documents or bidding documents or working drawings to actually build the building. �.. MR. WILLIAMSCK: Offer Exhibits 394,5 and 6 in evidonce. THE CHAIR: Received. Q. Referring to the Exhibit 6, would you .find the site plan? A. This is ante! Sheet S-4. Q. Referring to this sheet, would you please describe the location of the high rise, 15-story building for the elderly, as proposed by #gyp, Authority and designed by your firm, and show me the distance the building is from the various lot lines surrounding the project? A. This is a finalworking document which has not been marked in colored peat. The project is being built on the Titus Flats area at the corner of .South Plain Street and Wood Street, north being to the right of the sheet. Q. Would you start with the point of beginning, giving the distances this proposed high rise is from the various sides of the land owned by the Rousing Authority? A. On the north side of the building is approximately 180 feet to the property, back line of the property, facing on Wood Street, or the north of the actual housing property itself. On the east side it is approxi. mately 160 feet to the back property property line of the proposed building, facing on South Plain Street or to the east of the building itself. V -9- Q. Have you described the distances ,from all four sides of the building to the Housing Authority's property lines? Would you please gave us an approximate distance to the property line to the south of the building? A. To the south from the building to the south property line is 350 feet. Q. Can you give vs an estimate as to the distance to the gest from the face of the building to the property line? A ha excess;,of 200 feet easily. Q. Using that same S-4 sheety would you desoribe what that sheet shows as relates to parking area surrounding the buildingy and on what sides of the building the parking is proposed? A. The parking will be on the north side of the building. Q,_ What is the distance from the north line of the proposed pakrl g,:.,area to the property line of the Housing Authority? A. Approximately a little under 100 feet. Q How many parking spaces have been app�ed and provided for as shown x- on that drawing, S-4? A. We have parking facilities for 43 cars. Q, Is other parking provided anywhere also for this high rise project? A. The only other additional parking would be of a temporary nature, for dabs to go in the circular drive to gain entr*me to the building for deliveries or pickups. Q. From what street is the entrance to the high rise building? A. The main entrance is off South Plain Street. There is no other vehicu- lar access to the project. Q. Are you familiar with the Housing Assistance Ad—nistrat3m.*s require- ments .nor parking as relates to this project? A. Yes, our office has dons several housing projects for HAA. Q. S assume these are specifically for housing proje*ts for the elderly? A. Yes, Q. Wood you tell us what these requirements are as laid out by the HAA? A. The HAA prefers to and eancourages the architect to provide parking for approximately 23% of the apartments that will be in the building. Q. Hoa man,, units are proposed for this project? A. 165. Q. Can you testify that 43 parking spaces are proposed? A. That is correct. Q. And what percentage is that? A. Approximately 2wp• -1©- Q. Is this the rule as laid out by the HAA throughout the country? A. The projects I have been involved in have been for Now York State, so I can say, it does apply to New York State. Q. Can you briefly give us these housing projects with which you have dealt for the elderly? A. This project, the Herkimer, Now York project, and also Geneva projeat, and our office has as such boon involved in many. Q. Can you recall if the parking made avinable approximates 23%? A. That is correct. Q. Have these projects been completed? A. Herkiner for approadmately ten years ago. Q. Have you any knowledge as to whether these parking spaces were adequate for the elderly projects after construction? A. I as familiar with Herkimer and I know it is adequate. Q. Do you know the official bases for the HAA ruling that 23% parking is adequate? A. This is based on experience and as the buildings are designed for, : senior citizens and they know all the residents will not have their own oars, but that it will probably be 25% who will have their own cars. Therefore, such parking is provided. Q. What is the total acreage of this site approximately? A. About eight acres. Q. Can you tell us what plantings have been recommended by you arrehiteatura firm, surrounding this project? Please identify by boundaries and what is proposed to be planted. A,,. In general terms at the main entrance driveway from South Plain Street we will have trees planted to the south of the driveway the entire dis- tance, a few trees and shrubbery in the center of the turnaround at the main entrance, also a fear trees planted along the south side of the parking area; in addition, decorative trees and shrubbery planted at the south side of a recreational community area for the residents to go outside in the sun or the shade; also south of the main building we have two shuffle board court's and are planting trees and shrubbery along the perimeter of these courts, to soften its appearance and give it an estheio duality and make it a pleasant place to live. t , r Q. WM you describe what the outside construction of the building would be made of? A. Basically the building in appearance will be of brick; final determina- tion as to color has not yet been 4ade. The predominant two materials will be brick and concrete struotural miiterials$ and there will be glass entrance doors and windows.- X -31- Q. Again, the building is how high? A. Fifteen stories high. THE CHAIR: Mr, Williamson, I advised you that all participants were to move along fairly rapidly. MR. WI3LIAM9CN: I would welcome questions of this witness. BY MR, ALO: You say that 23% parking is planned? A. That is correct. Q Have you made any parking available for maintenance personnel or other individuals employed here? A. There will be, I an sure, 43 spaces. This is approxi- mately 25% of the apartments in the project. A couple of spots are usually designated for the adubAstrator and custodian. If we had to we could easily expand this at a future date. Q. Why not do it now? A. Because I do not know I need to. Q. Hoar far from the center of town is the housing project in Herkimer that you speak of? A. Probably the shopping area is one-half mile. THE CHAIR: How mann blooks approximately? It is one long block with„ I think, only one side street. This is the project we built. MR. PETITTI: What about visitors on ping? If my folks were there there would be seven oars,thers. A. Let me say that we are encouraged by the regional offlaq to provide spaces for approximately 25% oars, for the average situation. There could be exceptions which might :require more spaces. We have to follow their guide lines because we known more parking costs more money ao we stick to these as guide lines. I an sure there could be some temporary parking along the side lines. We do have adequate space to expand the parking and provide for it; if,the demand indicated this should be done. MR. ROGAN: If additional spaces are provided, who pays for it? A. I will let Mr. David Armstrong answer that. MISS MARTIN: What now is the figure, the cost per unit? A. The unit cost of this project is approximately Nineteen Thousand Three. Hundred ($199300 A). That is unit coat. DR. HALDINI: With the elderly the problem of safety is pronounced. Having just come from abroad where I was in an elevator which was overloaded, I recall a butsser rang and did not work. A. We are required to follow all the elevator code rules which are specified - to abide by all changes. Q. Is this safety feature to be provided? A. Yes. Suppose you get in an elevator and have a motor failure, there are safety devices that automatically out off the power. You have to comply with these safety measures. THE CHAIR: What specific instructions was the firm given as far as the project is concerned? You must have had some guide lines to follow besides monetary guide lines. A. The HAA has numerous manuals an the design of projects of this type. We have to comply with all these rules and regulations. Q. You must have had a choice of either a garden type or high rise to make. Who made that choice? A. I know the New York office would encourage us to go high rise. Our experience indicates it is better, more units per dollar cost. In addition to that, with a high rise building, with sensor citizens you are able to have all the conveniences you like. You could even be a wheel chair tenant, and still have all the conveniences, go from any apartment within the building, go to the laundry, go to any room - all this we know can't be done with garden apartments although they have a lot of charm and are very pleasing. People just won't bundle up and go out on a cold day. THE CHAIR: Are there funds available that provide ramps for people incapable of using stairs, with a garden type apartment, interconnecting? A. Yes, they do have. MISS MARTIN: Why is this an either/or project? A. I can take the high rise or garden apartment of one-story. Suppose we went to five or six stories with two or three buildings. Again we would be in an elevator situation plus the fact I would be duplicating all these facilities. In this project we have only two elevators and you almost get the additional height for free. -13- THE CHAIR: What dictated the high rime? A. I think economics, but,, also social amenities for senior citizens. All recent projects have been high rise for senior citizens. MI33 MARTIN: Have you done any that are not? A. The one at Herkimer is not. We are doing another at Genevap a five-story high project, which has a spread-out. MR. PETITTI: Why can't that be done here? A. I an not sure of all the problems involved, of site, charaoteristios, or something of that nature. In working With the local authority and the regional office they are very cost conscious,, and they know by sVsrienee that repetitive costs can .be out and money saved. Q. Do they take the people into consideration? A. Yes, I am sure they do. Q. You take a fifteen-story building - you know it is going to depreciate the property around tyre. Bat they say it isn't. A. I think there are nice propertioi there too but we have designed a handsome building,.Which Will be landscaped, When the project is completed it does not db►tract from the property. MR, ROGAN: How do you figure maintenance cost on this? A. I haven't any figures, Mr. Armstrong could vouch for that better than I could. I do know that maintenance in a building of this type would be lower than where you have a spread-outq With more service to take care of and more walks to clean and so forth. As to per- oentage I couldn't say. -14- BY MR. WTt1.TAMst7N: Recall Mr. David Armstrong. Q. Would you describe the reason for the authorities going to the high rise building fbr the elderly rather than one-story buildings? A. Several. Let me say that one was outlined by Mr. Belly - economics. Secean:d# on advice and counsel of these people Faith 33 years fence and several thousand of these structures, it has sociological benefits to the elderly# inolluding can the safety features. There is nothing more safe and seoure thou this type of building. Alang with that$ the sociological aspects of association vith others and people finding thous. selves participating. Primarily, when we talk about economics, 'aye hale a good parallel with the rant straotures of around $186 a 'month for a case bedroom unit. Ouv are based an an individual's bwoma, which ice find Stith the elderly is within $29000 a year ' That person would pay $40 a month. To get bock to a question ooncerning mainteuonae# you have to got back to a realisation that this project is 100% funded and the mortgage retired. These is an account in our management office of this operation. when we talk about eelonadcs in this busies tape teak about a figure in dollars and cents that makoor these kinds of rents possible, T know all rental income moist be sufficient for all maintenance and opereaticn, insureu:ce, &dhd nistrative MUM, cleaning man# n0VM&1 main- townie and extraordinary maintenance is all in the account, BY Mlles MARTM; Were you told definitely that there.to,,d be no •.� additional funds forthcoming? Are we eowparable to Her or Geneva? Z an talking about the total cost. Could you not have had an alternative of building fearer room? I would assume construction mists are f reflected in rents. A, Not nnecessari."1ys Q. The higher cost of building isn't going to be high taxes and thus higher rents? A. Construction costs ars not Nigher bore. MR, ALOi you 'Pent to the Planning Hoard in September of 1969 to got their ren tions and approval? A. A.pprcdti>,gately thea. Q. And they unanimously approved this in November# 1969? A. That is correct. Q. And that same evening Common Council ap- proved your plan? A. Yos. Q* This project went to 'bid in May and you opened your bids in Ju is? A. That is coreot. ®.. Why is it yin are sed late in coming to thisBoard? A. I believe vV first talk with Mr. Jones was saw time in Mays looking for the next meeting in June. We were several weeks getting hers waiting for a meeting.. Perhaps you apt,simi g at the following day after the Plan.. ving Board made this recommendation. This sight have happened by the , Planning Board. Our pr cedwe is o dined by the New York State Public BovAing Iaw# which indicates we are to obtain wmeptions and variances prior to making contract awards. There is nothing specifies. Q. You went to bid before approval. Wby was this done? Bscause now this has gone to bid and the bids are opened. A, The HU will not approves this until we get the necessary socceptions. MR. ALO: Wells I feel offended in your being hers so late with something that has to be done izeuW iately. MR. ROGAN: If you find your parking not adequate, in the Federal government going to come up with money for additional parking? A. Mog but the Ithaca Housing Authority will. This awes from the rent money. MISS MAMN t Why can't you get started on the low income housing building? A. I am- sure that we can start with the leer housing. It is my understanding that contingent upon this meeting the low income will be awarded soon. DR. BALDINI: What does the decision of this Board have to do with the family income area? • A. To support the-project as it is now. q. Couldn't you have done this earlier? You just said "contingent upon the HAA decision you would make this decision". A. This decision would be made in Washington or New York. Q. But you just said no exceptions nor variances are needed for the family housing? A. Yee. -16- Q. You could have given out the bids? A. The answer is that it was expected that the high cost of the low units buij�ding would help uphold the total average of the high rise apartments but it has worked the other way. It has worked to a saving which we can take advantage of. You can come out with an average room cost which is much more favorable. THE CHAIR: You said that you came before the Planning Board in November of 1969 with the pians. Was that a regular meeting? A. No, a special meeting under the New York State Housing Law. Q. Was it publicised in the paper? A. Yes. Q. How about the attendance? A. I do not know what you oall "attendance". Q. People from the area affected by the high rise. A. There was no opposition. Q. And this also was brought before the Common Council that evening? A. Yes, at a regular meeting. Q. This is two weeks after a scheduled day. The Common Council normally meets the first Wednesday of the month. A. It was heard November 19th. That may have been a special meeting. MRS. JONES: The Planning Board met before dinner and the Common Council not at a special session. They not twice the same day, once in a special session for the Hosing Authority. THE CHAIR: So this was at a special session. Was this meeting publicised? A. I would say yea, definitely. MR. ROGAN: How much money do we have in the project to date? A. Approximately $600,0009 a rough figure. MR. WIEJJAMSCK: We have nothing further. -17- u THE CHAIR: Further, there are two items that came in in response to the advertisement in the paper. This first one is from the Tompkins County Senior Citizens' Counail, Incorporated. This is in favor of the project and contains approximately 55 signatures. (Above read by The Chair) And this is another letter addressed to the Zoning Board of Appeals, dated July 14, 19749 from Marx Realty & Improvement Co„ Inc. (Above read by The Chair) These two are in favor of the project. Is there anybody here who wishes to speak in favor of the exception? DONALD SLATTERY: 410 West Court Street. I would voice nay hopes that it becomes a reality and I will say that if not, we will never see any housing for the elderly in Ithaca. I had always thought that low imome housing was directly connected with high `.. rise construction. DAVID ARMSTRONG: It is my belief that we could proceed with the low family income project. ANNE JONFS: I am Alderman, Sixth Ward. I would like to speak in favor of granting the exception. I will add that there are many things about this particular location and I can appreciate people's unhappiness. FRED VAN NEDERYNEN: I would like to sag, as Chairman; of the Senior Citizens' group that this petition happened in art one meeting and that we can get a larger petition if needed; It is time something was done for lost income housing for the elderly. THE CHAIR: Then in opposition I have a letter addressed to Mr. Rocco Lueente, signed by Joseph J. Moores who reeon- mends that this housing should be located domntosn. (The above read by The Chair) THE CHAIR: And here is one, a petition from a meeting of the Mayor's Citizens Advisory Cammd.tteeq given to Mrs. Florence Rumph. �, (Above read by The Chair) �., THE CHAIR: Is there any one else who wishes to speak? FLORNCB RUNPH: I an speaking also baoking the petition you Just read. The Tompkins County Tax Payers Asso#aiation voted just against the height of the building. We at no time opposed anything that mould help our #odor citizens. If M'. Armstrong onnsiders this will run to $40 a month It is still tax payers' money. Doo you have to show a profit on this building? Who pioks up the loss? How much of a loss are you going to be able to take? These things axle of great oonoern to no, CLINTON WHITING: 1.M regards to the safety of the buildiage how many elevators will it have? MR, MOLLY: Taro, Q, About hoer maty people do you ecpeot to have on each floor? A, Approximately ons to two residents per apartment on the floor. Twelve, Q, What I have in mind is something that just happened in Now York in a high rise# a fire. No one was burnosd - but it was smoke that was domeging. with your insulation whioh you uso, if you had a fire can the third or fourth floors honor long would it take to ovasuato that building? A, Firsts the fire you refer to was in a typioal offio m building in New York City, which has open sparse and is then subdivided into off'ioaes# maoyiae a Rill floor with ton tenants on a floor. I can not speak with refoe►renoe to *odes but I know they do not equal the safety standards required for an apartment oonstrwotion building. Thews is nothing roaslly fireproof but this building is as fireproof as you oan make it. Con- arstoi, masoanry can the actexior walls plus maaW interior walls, stool walls all fireproofs elevator shafts fireproof and machinery systems to operate o"h elevator. The oomparison is not quite the same. The doors from the apartments to the oorridor ars fireproof. If you shut your door you would be preatioally safe. There are also make detectors in • this building - every safety measurer has been provided# all the safety you oan have for sorm— ty. You can operate the main door from your apartment. This has been planned with the greatest came, R. Are there any balconies? A. None, Q. Brett they do have them on high rase buildings? A. Yes. Q„ Is that one measure for safety? `.. A, I would look at it as a hazards Q, If there were smoke# if you walked out there# wouldn't you gat fresh air? _19- A, No more than if a winder was open. Suppose you had a fire within an apartment. Suppose the furnishings in your apartment saughrt fires this could be possible, but that fire can be contained within that apartment, Q. What if a fire happened in one of the elevator shafts? A. You do have two elevator shafts, The elerator shafts and doors are fire- proof. There are just lubricant greases within the elevator, but they are inspected and maintained by law, THE CHAIR: These thugs are strictly controlled by the firs underwriters. HOIT V'tMS: There are two areas in that neighborhood that have spent thousands of dollars for land fill and they hm let it stand, Almost across from this they have spent thousands of dollars in land fill, If that land went support a two-story building, will it support a fifteen- story building? A, Your question is a good one. I can say as a professional that a lot of time has been spent before I arrived an the scene, in **looting a site. We all know sub-surface conditions here are poor. We were also concerned, We basioally did two things. First* test borings were taken dorm 200 feat* so we know what conditions wdsted below gromd level. Second, our firm engaged a specialist consultant for a solution to the problem. Thee" were two, and again we took the most economical solution„ and that was to drive piles to support the building. We had test piles driven and we test loaded the test piles and we overloaded these piles to determine if the final piles would support the building. We took the data from that and we kaov we can use piles to support this building. This is an engineering fact. I know as an architeot, if I wanted to support a shopping center down there, that I could. THE CHAIR: Is a performance bond asked by the Ithaca Housing Authority? A, They have to have performance bonds. JUDr PROMS: I mould like to know:w: Will. the Board of Zig Appeals also approve for other developments inside the City the same height variances? THE CHAIR: We can not answer that question. We have to judge each project by its merits, FLORENCE RUMPH: Mr. Se].l,y, why do you maintain as an architect, that It is awe economical to build a hgih rise than to have a garden type. What is the difforenso as far as a building would apply to a school? _zo- �.. A. The State dation Department, I think, will praotioally mandate not to build higher than three stories for a school; first, for class xoom circulations and second, they do not want U get into elevator sonstr4o. tion. Three stories is about the highest they normally go. it is another problem. EMERSON MoDCULD: Wood Street. In opposition. Dating tack to Barbara Blewhard, firsts we wanted low cost housings and second, Wanted elderly housing supplied. They had no objection to senior citizens, so wo Were shown a complex of senior of ens to blend with the neighborhood, and we were assured if we would go'along with thiss this is the way it would be done, You mentioned earlier whether this was put out for &&ortising before it went to Common Council. .I think the matter was just settled. I thought that the matter had been settled. We had been assured these would be buildings that world blend with the nei.gh�- bovhoods and the next we knew that/ were talking fifteen; stories. I do not want this in, my back yard. I have to comply with the Zonings and I can't build a chicken coop in mine, and I don't ztant theme to. JIM HE[+TDRSON a 343 Wood Street. I think the elderly should have a hoar but that it should be as the Zoning Cmudttes is set up to control all such thinggss and people in that area still have that reason. They don't expect to see something so high came up there. I ,fit do not want to see a high building there. JAMES RMUE s (Looking at Zoning Ordia=ae)s Mr. WUllamson used * the word variance instead of wwoption. Which are we dealing with? The discussion tonight has been one of uses so we out go to a va riances and it says: "vM not be injurious to the neighborhood or otherwise detXimental". We either have this or we do not. We either have an exception or a varlanoe and onform to it. S would like to ask Mr. Kealy if he couldn't feoel more proud of his presentation if the site he was talking about was dommnton and not on some off-street portion of the City. My address is 313 East Baffalo Street* *Reporter's note: At one point Mr. Williamson used the ward "variance" but immasastel,4 eorrected to "exception". RECESS o —21— THE 2 —THE CHAIR: We now go to Case #8861, the Appeal of Hardee Floods, 406-410 Eddy Street, Ithaca, New York, for a special permit at 406-410 Eddy Street under provision Section 7, Column 4, in a B-2 district, information to be provided by the petitioner to resolve the problem of a sign and parking. JOHN KAROLY: Project engineer for Mid-.Atl=tio Hardee, Incorporated, which is a franchising agent for a Hardee Food Restaurant, and right now we are just about completing a building on Eddy Street around the corner from East Buffalo Street,, I have subodtted a schematic on the facade sign, which is a part of the building per se, part of the wan and the sign attached thereto, which is pre« manufaotured, and consequently this is one sign. We have on it the identifying name in soft light, 45 square feat total area. Other than this exterior lighting to beautify the building, this is the only lighting we have on the building itself, the only exterior sign of identification. MR. ALO: How late at night will your sign be on? A. In most cases throughout the country we have an 11:00 P.M. closing. Q, What time will you people close? A. If the business warrants we may be open longer but it is generally 11:00 P.M. and that is almost mandated by the powers that be. There is a neon back light encased in plastic, MR. ALO: Are there apartments across the street on the second floor? THE CHAIRt There may be; there could be. EDISON JONES: This is in the vicinity of People's Park, MR, TAROLY: I might add that this is prevalent throughout all the Hardee buildings. KISS MARTIN: What do you :wean by exterior lighting? A. Around the door area, the entrance. All we want to do is just light up this facade. JOSEPH DiPALMA: Architect. I just want to bring to the Hoard's atten- tion that most of the rules governingsigns are usually based on a couple square fest per lineal of the banding. The name Hardee is one large H and the rest is in small, letters so the total area is really less. It is a translucent xbi.te light, back lighted, G A,, with a sealed fixed light so all you get is a glow of the actual letters. It is sort of a trade mark of the restart azsd the actual facade has a raised,panel in the inside and that whole center section with its raised letters is sort of a trade mark. It is really an orna- mental fixture with no high intensity. THE CHAIR: No overhanging signs? A, Nog this is the only sign. We have our setback so we are behind the main sidowalk itself. The face of our facade comes in Line with the adjacent buildings on the north and south sides so we have nothing projecting beyond the sidewalk itself. THE CHAIR: You are of course aware of the memorandum sent from the City Planning Board. They want to know the sohow about the parking. Do you have any indication of how you will handle the parking in that area? A. Torre aro no other facilities other than the city meter. It just happens to be a site picked and ap- proved and purchased in hopes we would have food traffic more than road traffic, Going nest to the rear of the building we have quite a slope, 30 to 40 percent grade, and the property line is paralleling BAYalo Street and the Laundry parallels Buffalo Street also. We hope with easement that we can blacktop the back lot for our ova people. THE CHAIR: You ruralise that this is a sensitive area, in the community? A. Yes. q, What will be your operating hours, will you be open to two or three o'clock in tho morning? A. No, I doubt it. MR. DiPALM: Normally it is 10:00 A,M, to 10:00 P.M. and might stay open to 11:00. None will be open at 2100 or 3:00 A.M. MR, EARMY: I opened one in Cortland about two months ago and even there we don't stay open longer than elevta. MR. DiPALMAt Staying up later would kill the operation. They want a family type operation and not a gang operation. From tan to ten is where you get your normal business from people in the area, -23- THE CHAIR: Is there anybody to speak in favor of granting? HUM JOHNS: I Lhink it's great to have the lighting. We are spending money to light up a street. This is def n telt' commercial and several stores there are open till me and that won't make much differenee. It is one of their regular signs and is such a great improvement over wvhat we had in the block they should be given a Purple Heart or something, THE CHAIR: Is there anybody to speak in opposition,? None, Thank you, gentlemen. EXECUTIVE 3ESSTCN9 HQA.RD OF ZCNlNG APPEALS, CITY OF ]THACA, AUGUST Ll., 1970 CASE NO. 886 ALO: Move to grant the appUcation. MARTIN: Swand.. VOTE: Yes - 6 No - 0 CAS . .. _ MR, ALD: I, as one member of this Hoard, deal with the elderly more than any one on this Board. I know their prob- lems; I see them every day, They are depressed. There is no place for them to go. They can not get hospital beds; surgery is denied to these people who need it because the beds are taken up by people who do not need them as much as the elderly. By solving a problem of this magnitude, many of these individuals would have a place to go, as so many of these people do not really have to go to nursing hoaxes. When I first heard of this project, I was against its and then I had a talk with myself. I see theca every day. I treat these people. I know these people, and they are desperate. They need this very badly. It is vitally important, not only to these peoples but to this community. We are all going to get old some time; I am feeling it now. I am looking forward to some day living in a place of this type because if I can live in a place for $40 a month, I am going to take it, and I look to these members of this Board to grant this project. Dpi, BALDINI: I agree one hundred percent. One of the basic re- quirements of us as human beings is to be wider- standing of these elderly people. As an example, I was in a hospital one Christmas Eve and I saw an old lady going down the hall, looking in rooms, looking around for some one to pay attention to here some one to show a little love for her, and there seemed to be no one. These people together, win have a common bond of being together and being accepted by their own, even if their own families do not like them. They are all looking for some one to come to visit with theme. That is their need. Soave families neglect their elderly, At least they will have each other. That is one aspect of this situation, something we need to provide for these people. MISS MARTIN: My only question is: Will this project be lost if we send it back? Will we lose it entirely? DR. BALDINI: I think we will. You saw that it took from 1968 when they had the schematics, to 1970 when they advertised the bids. It would just take too long to come back. MISS MARTIN: We have found out now that this low income project �.. could have gone ahead. -2� DR. HALDTidI: These four millions `could be at least one-third more two years from now. MISS MARTM: The Hoard feels that this application should be grantedy Hirst* because the elderly desperately need housing and we fear that the total project will be lost if sent back for re-design at this tine. Second, the Hoard feels that construction costs are going up, and if it is to be re-designed, this could possibly cost much more within at least two years. Thirdy from our intimate knowledge of the site, the Board feels that land closer to the downtown shopping area is not readily available for re-looation of this project. MR. ALOs People are_,saying, "This is the wrong place." Where is the right place? It seem that no matter where we put this, it seems the wrong place. DR. BALDUI-t There is no one place that is better geographically than another in the pity on the flats. There is no wide-spsoed area left in the City where a project of this sise could be built. 3=UTIVZ SESSICKr BOARD 4F ZONING APPEALS, CITY OF 3TRACA9 AUGUST Ut 1970 CASE NO., 883 ALO.- Move that the a►pplioatt on be gTantedo 13ENTOWSKI: Seamd. VOTE Yes - 4 No - 2