HomeMy WebLinkAboutMN-CIV-1984-01-17 191 A
SPECIAL MEETING
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CITY OF ITHACA CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION
Jamuary 17, 1984 e 198
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Present: Chairperson Wilcox, Commissioner Lee, Commissioner Sla'�i d
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Tuckerman, Firefighter Carver, Fire Commissioner Slade, ioner
Anderson, Fire Commissioner Teeter, Executive Secretary Pezdek,
Personnel Administrator Shaw.
Chairperson Wilcox called the meeting to order at 7:40 P. M.
Chairperson Wilcox: I would like first of all to thank you, Mike for what must have
been a time consuming and equitable presentation
that was both concise in what you were writing and thorough going and I appreciate that
because that was the kind of information we were needing. Also, our thanks to Hazel
• for her time and the stuff that she did for us. In looking over the materials that
we keep it still struck me that we're dealing with two issues as we talked about
at the meeting last week and from the published materials that Mike porvided us with
it's certainly overwhelming. The evidence in support of having a physical fitness
program is overwhelmingly convincing, there's no question on that, and I guess
you've been working on that for quite awhile.- So why don't we first talk about how
we want to proceed, whether we want to take each one separately.
Commissioner Lee: I was looking at the figures and statistics that you presented.
The support data that you brought were relating to the age
brackets of the variousfire departments, and the physical condition that these
people were in I agree. The fireman has to be in the top shelf of physical
condition to do the job that is required. I think physical training is an important
part of the program in addition to the age._requirements.
Chairperson Wilcox: Okay, maybe its going to be easier to dispense with that part
of it right now and I would like to share my thinking with
what Joe said, that there is a possibility for us to include a requirement for
fitness both in testing to begin with and ongoing maintenance in the job specification!
of the Civil Service job spec. There are probably other ways of going about that
with which I am not very familiar. I suppose the Fire Commission could set those
standards also. If we were to do it, probably we would want to do it in a
consultation basis with relavant fire departments groupings, whether that's the
Commissions end, I don't know who else we would be in contact with. So what we
need to talk about is how we would go about addressing the problem of fitness and
whether is fact it's the role of the Civil service Commission to set up some
requirements in that area.
Firefighter Carver: I would tend to think it would be good for the Civil Service
Commission to do that, to do something along those lines since
its the job specifications that will be used later on during a persons contract. ..
The specifications under which he was hired, so if you input whatever material necessa
the next specifications that would be long lasting for the people that were hired
under those specifications.
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Chairperson Wilcox: Certainly a`lot of_the background work that needs to go into
that has already been done by some of you, but it seems to me
something that, as far as specifics of laying out, that plan some time needs to go
into it to decide exactly what sort of and also involve, say, Budget and Administ-
ration as far as what the City is willing to provide.
Chief Tuckerman: There is going to be monies involved in that physicals will be
required. . . five years, whatever the standard will be and that's
where the expense is and that's going to have to be budgeted each time. We've
got to know what it is going to cost to have these physicals required and make our
annual request to the Board.
Chairperson Wilcox: See, that's where it goes into a gray area because if we set
up those requirements then you're still going to be responsible
for implementing them.
Chief Tuckerman: But it does make it easier for us to go before Council and say
we've got to have this much money to take care of the required
physicals each year and why is this: Because it's a civil service regulation; it's
required. It has to be, and I don't think there will be any question from Council ,
but if we make the approach without Civil Service backing we are wasting our time
and theirs.
Chairperson Wilcox: Okay, and by physicals you are referring not just to a
routine-blood-pressure and that kind . . .
Chief Tuckerman: Not that standard physical we give, no!
Commissioner Lee: We have an on-going training program, don't we?
Chief Tuckerman: We have a training program, yes.
Commissioner Lee: Does that mean once they are trained they don't go through
training again?
Chief Tuckerman: Continuously.
Commissioner Slaght: Training, but not physical fitness?
Chief Tuckerman: These is no physical fitness program. I would like to see a
physical fitness program developed. This is something I have been
fighting for, trying to get established for several years now. It never got off
first base. I think now we've reached the point where we've got to do something.
I don't think its a matter of sitting back and saying: Well maybe next year. I
think that next year is here, in fact, its already gone by.
Commissioner Lee: How do you feel about grandfathering?
Chief Tuckerman: That's a difficult one.
Commissioner Lee: Yes ! It certainly is!
Chief Tuckerman: I mean it's very difficult.
Commissioner Lee: At least, you can say that. I 'm a person for the program. Okay,
you've got people who are on the force, okay, and you're trying
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to make a better system everyone tends to I can't see a syftem where this
person doesn't have to do it because he was hired back in 1939. If He's going to
be within the force and I'm not saying he has to turn around and do something . . .
but I can't see him being a person who becomes more actively involved, he's more con-
scious of himself. Mr Carver says one of the things he says he would like to
see is people not smoke. There's not way in the world we can enforce that. At
least as far as I can see because that is discriminatory.
Chairperson Wilcox: That's because you are a smoker!
Commissioner Lee: Right! But at the same time I understand a mans health, Okay?
But at the same time you are asking us to shove health right
down his throat.
Firefighter Carver: A person doesn't have to take an exam if they don't wish to.
I don't think.
Commissioner Lee: True! But if they don't take the exam or they don't meet the
physical requirements then you are also turning around and putting
in what? Punitive damages? In the sense that he has, if he doesn't meet the
standards what happens to him then?
Firefighter Carver: If it was a condition of his employment its usually understood
from the beginning, in fact, sometimes before.
Commissioner Lee: In the case of smoking, what if he starts after he gets the job?
Firefighter Carver: Then he would be breaking the conditions of employment, I
assume. It would be comparable to maintaining any other
capabilities or standards that a person needs to perform a job.
• Commissioner Lee: Such as needing certification Yes, I know, but I can't see
turning around and saying that if he smokes he's goint to turn
around and jepordize his job to such a degree, then it becomes a judging his degree
of smoking. . . ability to work just as it would be lucky to turn around an be
tired all the time.
Chairperson Wilcox: Okay, but you 'have a part of the requirement is your weight
requirement which you're comparing those two things so I think
the decision is something that is going to have to be made about it and you can
probably descuss it until the cows come home because that's an argument that's going
on everywhere.
Commissioner Slaght: That's new! I don't think that they can put in there that
they are not allowed to smoke. I think you can put in there
they are not allowed to smoke on the job or in certain places, but I don't think
that you can put it into the position specification. I don't know of any ruling.
Chairperson Wilcox: That's another thing, Bob We like to add that to the list we'd
like to ask the City Attorney. We haven't got a response on
that.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Now, what's that?
Chairperson Wilcox: Whether there are any legal problems with including a non-
smoking requirement.
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Commissioner Slaght: That really- though is like you would say that you couldn't
hire a black or you couldn't hire a white, or you couldn't hire
someone fat. I think smoking is the same thing. They may say you can't smoke once
you are on the job but I can't believe they'd ever allow a law where they would say
if you are a smoker you can't be hired.
Commissioner Lee: Generally business has it that you can turn around and smoke on
your break time in segregated places, something of that nature
but to turn around and say you just can't smoke no. A person off duty, he's not
working. Its his life, isn't it? Sure. Bottom line. It's his life. Off duty.
Tough situation. There's no doubt about that.
Chairperson Wilcox: But we're not talking about a desk job. Certainly. We
wouldn't be able to enforce that. It would be impossible.
Firefighter Carver: I understand the difficulties enforcing that but I think it is
a good idea.
Commissioner Lee: I understand it and I personally agree but unfortunately its not
enforcable.
Chairperson Wilcox: Deserves consideration. If we are looking at an overall
program of promoting good health then smoking definately comes
into the picture.
Commissioner Lee: I t does. I agree with you. I 'm not arguing that point. I'm
just questioning the persons right to do it, however. I see that
the fitness problem is something that I personally am in favor of correcting. I
am in favor of a physical fitness program.
Chief Tuckerman: May I ask a question? Why if you put it in the job requirements that
a person will maintain physical fitness as required by the fire
department wouldn't that pretty well cover it as long as the fire department
establishes a_ physical fitness program?
Chairperson Wilcox: Right! That's dertainly another option we would have.
Chief Tuckerman: That means that you don't have to get too technical in order to
make the statement, a person has to meet the requirement, physical
fitness for the fire department.
Commissioner Lee: I assume you want to leave that to the Fire Commission?
Chairperson Wilcox: It is still in the discussion stage.
Chief Tuckerman: I think that we are all in agreement, the union, my staff, and the
Board of Fire Coomissioners, as all are in agreement that we need
a physical fitness program. The question that arises at the present time is mandatory
or non-mandatory. I think we can reach an agreement that the program can be
mandatory. Getting back to grandfathering. What do you do with the employees we have
presently? I honestly believe that we can set up a program, I have seen it done in
other cities, I have talked with a good many chiefs that have established programs.
They have agreeded between the chiefs and the union that the requirement be mandatory.
That, they have accepted. I think we can do the same thing. I can get those programs
any time I want from the other departments.
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Commissioner Slaght: And if a person cannot pass and has twenty or fifteen years what
do you do with that person then? -
Chief Tuckerman: I think that if the individual is willing to try to pass it - no
matter what, whether he meets certain guidelines or not, if he is
trying, he is improving himself. And a person who is willing to improve himself -
I have no objection to. It is the person who is not willing to do anything, just sit
back and grow fat and useless to us, that is the kind of person I want to do something
with.
Chairperson Wilcox: There are all sorts of ways of doing that. Like we could say
a person has two years to meet the physical requirements, where
the idea would be that over that period of time he would be gradually improving.
Chief Tuckerman: If we have the physical requirements, the doctors can set guidelines
for that individual and send those guidelines to us saying here's
something this person should not be doing. It is not good for their health. Or
perhaps thay can progress and eventually do it. I think the doctors along with a
physical program, I think the doctors can give us the guidelines necessary for the
people who cannot quite make the grade. But if we just sit back and say well , it
has been this way for the past 30 years, we cannot change it, I think we are doing
a disservice to the community.
We have been working on it for a long time, have we not Mike? I have been working
on it a little longer than Mike has, maybe not in as much detail as he's been working
, but I think that the reason that some of these people cannot wear apparatus is
because physically they are not-in condition. They are either too heavy or their
lungs are in poor condition because they have not been exercising. I think that
has a lot to do with it. If we have got an individual who even though physically
can do the job except wear a mask then that person has got a medical problem. It
should be looked into, I think. A doctor can tell us weather or not this person is
physical or medical .
That is right. I think it is good for an individual employee. It is good
for my office, to know where we stand with the work force.
Commissioner Slaght: So you are saying that if a fifteen year old or a fifty-five
year old is pbysically fit then it would be. . . . in that age rang(
for that individual? If he can pass the test and do the work.
Chief Tuckerman: You know, I have been trying to come up with information that
was requested the last time we met, I have not been able to do so ,
and I have not been able to find anyone who can give me that information.
Chairperson Wilcox: Well , some of the studies that Mike gave us address that
question, in specific terms.
Firefighter Carver: One, particularly, I think.
Commissioner Lee: You have to understand, the last time we were here one half of
this information was not here. I have been talking to a lot of
people out on the street, it is surprising.
Chairperson Wilcox: This one article starts out with part of the premise that in
the past that everybody knows that there is a relationship
between aging and regression of performance and this study goes on to prove that
this is not the case.
191 F
•N
That the higher correlation in terms of physical performance had to do with body fat.
Chief Tuckerman: Why was the age limit changed back from 29 to 35 in 1980? I don't
have the information I asked for. What made that Board at that
time change the age limit from 29 to 35 when just a few years before that in 1974,
— they changed it from 35 to 29 following the police guidelines at that time?
Chairperson Wilcox: I would like to answer that, partly because I was on the
Commission at that time. My recollection is that there were
various considerations. Remember that during that period, in the late 70's and
early 80's, there was a great emphasis on discrimination to alleviate discrimination
and we were working in terms of bringing more minorities into Civil Service in the
City and so that was one consideration. We were hoping to expand the field of
minorities who would be potential firefighters. And the other consideration was age
discrimination and the fact that there was no proof that a person, you know it is
sort of difficult to determine a cut off point and that there are people who are
fit and very agile and very capable at the age of 50 or 55 or whatever. I always
feel arbitrary when you establish a cut off point and I remember also that the
fitness requirements were being questioned and part of the thinking was that fitness
wasn't . . . as well.
Cheif Tuckerman: At that time, in 1980, did you also change the age requirement for
the police department?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: No, that is set by State Law.
Chief Tuckerman: So they are still under what they were under back in 1974?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Correct.
Chief Tuckerman: _ And yet the fire department changed.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Yes.
Chief Tuckerman: Sorry, I don't see the sense in that. Seeing as how our business
has been proven to be more stressful than that of the police
department, so I can't understand that reasoning.
Chairperson Wilcox: Undoubtably, but. This is not a direct answer to what you are
saying but undoubtably had we the choice at that time to alter
the police our thinking would have applied to them as well , but we wern't in a
position to do that. What you are probably saying is that there are very good
reasons why the police department have their age set at what it is and never changed
back, that's certainly a valid concern.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: I should hasten to add there are court cases still
pending on the age 29 to 35 for police officers. It's
not been settled yet in court.
Chief Tuckerman: Since 1974?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Yes!
Chief Tuckerman: I can believe that.
• 191 G
Executive Secretary Pezdek: There is still a case out in Buffalo which.: is the one
that everybody is evidently looking for and no matter
which way that gets settled, the best advice I get from the Law Bureau in Albany
in Civil Service is it's going to be a beaut. It will probably be another ongoing
battle for a few years.
Commissioner Slaght: I guess I would like to ask, I believe at the last meeting
you said, Mr. Slade, that you said at the last meeting that
you wouldn't go into a building or something with an older man, 55 or 60.
Fire Commissioner Slade: If I thought he wasn't in good shape physically. No.
Commissioner Slaght: That's what I'm saying. If they're physically fit does it matter
what age they are?
Fire Commissioner Slade: I have no problem with a person 55 if they are in reasonably
good shape for their age, its the ones in absolutely poor
shape and we know from acquaintance or from being on the Board.
Chairperson Wilcox: Do you find in addition to that question that there are people
who are, say 40, 45, who you might feel the same way about,
who are not in very good shape?
Fire Commissioner Slade: I think that holds true although I would have to search our
department to find. . . at that age.
Chairperson Wilcox: They have not had as much time to fall apart.
Fire Commissioner Slade: To fall apart, I guess . . . . or the other guys are trying
to stay in shape anyway.
Chairperson Wilcox: Well , yes. I think that's another element thats probably
relavant in that the growing consiousness of that fitness
which is more quickly adapted by younger people. Although,you know the running
club has a lot of older folks in it.
Commissioner Lee: Do you have a sense on longevity in terms, how long do you
expect the firefighters to last?
Chief Tuckerman: When you say to last, do you mean to stay on the force or be in
physical shape?
Commissioner Lee: I assume the various duties in the fire department. I assume
everyone can't make it to the top, even with the statistics I see
that we have.. . at about the same time as we have coming up now. Where they're all
around the same age, The Fire Chiefs, all of them can't be Fire Chiefs . . . .
Chairperson Wilcox: Joe, I'm Sorry. I 'm not sure I understand your question.
Commissioner Lee: I'm asking if he feels there is a particular life span or amount
of time that a firefighter will need to be on the ladder of the
truck, going in and out of buildings, being an administrator, the various positions
within the fire department.
191 H
Chief Tuckerman: . . .No. No we have either firefighters, those men who operate the
equipment fighting fires or we have staff officers, we don't have
both. The firefighter can take an exam and become a lieutenant, a staff officer.
He's still a firefighter. He fights just as much fire as most of the other people.
He gets in the buildings as much as the man with the hose line. He makes rescues
as much as anybody else. When you get into chief officers, assistants, deputy or
myself we're not as active in the firefighting field. We don't necessarily go
into the burning structure. We don't exert ourselves as much as they do. Its
as much stress, perhaps more stress on us than it is on them but we're not as active
fighting the fire or making the rescue.
Commissioner Lee: Then you would not propose there agressive type of physical
examination based on your job specification?
Chief Tuckerman: Not basically, no. (Can't hear) I wouldn't like to use the word
expectations as far as . . . I think when a person reaches a certain
age and I'm thinking back to military a man when he got to be 40 years old he
wasn't required to go through as much physical training and meet the physical
requirements as a man of 29 and the older you get the less is required of you and
I think that should also be true in the fire department.
Chairperson Wilcox: What implications does that have for the level of competence
for the firefighting force.?
Chief Tuckerman: I don't quite follow what you are saying.
Chairperson Wilcox: If you have different standards on age and still have people in
the fire department within those two different age groups
presumably they are all doing the same thing.
Chief Tuckerman: I would expect all those people would still be able to do all
those things that are required of them.
Chairperson Wilcox: Then it sounds to me a little bit like you're saying that the
physical requirements or training requirements are not really
that related to the work that they are doing.
Chief Tuckerman: The physical training requirements is that what you want?
Commissioner Lee: The physical fitness standards of an age group. Progressively
different? Yet the expectation of work load is the same?
Cheif Tuckerman: I don't think it would be that much different because we don't
have positions where we can take a man who is 55, we don't have
have a position for that man where he won't have to do what a kid of 21 has to do.
They have to do the same job. There's no change there. But, as far as, what we
expect of that person, if we had a physical fitness program, what we- would expect
of that person of 55 or older would have to be less than what we would expect
of a young man of 21.
Chairperson Wilcox: Is that because of what you expect of a person of 21 goes way
beyond what they are ever going to be called upon to do?
191 I
Chief Tuckerman: That could very well be. This is where if we set up a program
we're going to have to look at these. . .
Personnel Administrator Shaw: In terms of the grandfathering aspect, do you forsee,
for instance, or did you project how long down the
road it would be considering the amount of turn over in regard to how long it would
be before the whole force is under the program There is very, very little turnover
to my knowledge. So in terms of the future, if there were physical fitness
requirements the men expect to change, requirements to be met. . . . How long do you
see it before you added standards in your department, 75 per cent.
Chief Tuckerman: Less than a year.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Including the ones rolling over now?
Chief Tuckerman: We can have a.program in operation in less than a year. That's
what I'm saying.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: I'm saying, getting everybody up to the standard.
Chief Tuckerman: I would say in less than three years.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Including on the force, what you have now?
Chief Tuckerman: In less than three years.
Chairperson Wilcox: I wanted to make note of actually two things. One, related to
this, which is that we had on a list of questions for the
City Attorney, the question of grandfathering. Can such a requirement be enforced
to cover everyone now have as a firefighter or should it be split somehow by age?
I think that was designed to address the grandfathering question. And so somehow,
no matter who sets up the standards and the requirements that's going to have to be
a legal determination. It's going to have to be made about whether that can be
imposed on people who are hired with a different set of expectations. The other thing
that Iwant to take up is that we moved away from the fitness question itself and
into the age and now we're back to the fitness section and I think that we should
stay there untill we do something with it.
Chief Tuckerman: Let me tell you a story. Several of us in the Department have
joined the City Health Club which is right next door and those of
us who have joined it are from ages in the 20's into the 50's, who are presently
in the program,and we love it. We think it is the greatest thing in the world but
I would like to see more of our people join the program. Now the reason that more
of our members haven't joined the program is because they are not allowed to do it
on duty. In other words, they have to wait until they get off duty at night to go
over and do their exercising and then drive home and some live as far away as Owego.
But, if we had a program where we could have this physical training during duty hours
many more people would be in this kind of program. I am quite encouraged over the
fact that we've got several right now and its not mandatory and its costing them
money. In fact its costing them a minimum of $189 a year, and yet they are in the
program and I'm talking about as I said, ages from 20's to age 53 and up. But, see,
the men are willing to do it, to get into a program like this. . .and we've got to do
it, make it available to them and for those who are not willing to get into it,
unless we do make it mandatory they will never do anything, that will help them or
help us.
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Chairperson Wilcox: The one question in that area—is whether if its not mandatory
whether you can set down who are physically fit by the annual
physical which can be as strenuous as you want to make it and say if they can't
pass the physical they can't stay on the force.
Cheif Tuckerman: I would rather say if they can't pass the physical training and
are not willing to improve or at least try, then they shouldn't
be on the force. I agree they should not be on the force.
Chairperson Wilcox: You're still nicer than I am. You see, I think they should be
able to pass the physical .
Chief Tuckerman: So do I. Maybe you are right. I 'm trying to be nice about it.
I could be nasty as I used to be in the military and say: Hey, you
either do it, or. . but that's not the way we operate today.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Apparently its been your experience that people who
are physically fit when the join the department go
to mush after.
Fire Commissioner Slade: Basically that's true.
Executive Secretary Pezdek:They go to pot. There's no question about it. It's
the fire house cooking.
Commissioner Slaght: But who's fault is that? That they do that.
Firefighter Carver: I won't say its the Civil Service Commissions fault, but what
I am saying is that you can provide to take care of that by
putting in your job specifications that that person will have to take a physical
from a physician, as well as, a physical abilities test once a year.
Commissioner Slaght: I say that's great too, but what are we going to do about all
those people down there if you say the turnover is very low?
Firefighter Carver: As far as turnover is concerned, I think I mentioned in the
letter I wrote that we have got 14 people now who are eligible
to retire, 1 at least additional person, who will be eligible this year.
Commissioner Slaght: They are eligible to retire but are they going to?
Firefighter Carver: No, I cannot guarantee that by any means, but what I would
suggest is that°they're eligible to retire, they could well
be fairly close, and further than that we provided them additional incentive this
year in that the retirement salary or benefits are based on the final years salary,
instead of the final 3 years salary. So, I don't know exactly how much that will
increase the persons retirement but incentives like that, I think the Fire Department
can provide. If we can address the job specifications now.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: I guess what I'm thinking is that in that particular
thing is sort of an incentive on my hand and a
deterrant on the other hand because if you have got your twenty some years in and
still your retirement can be based on that last year, lets plug it for a couple
more and build it up some more when they,,may not be in shape, and they are here for
the ride to see what it means to get the annual step increase to get a little bit
more before they go. They could be in terrible shape but can you force them out?
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Firefighter Carver: It's possible, but what we are looking at here is that this
is the first year it has been available, since it has not
been available for the last 100 years perhaps in that respect . . .
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Have you had any feedback at all from any of those
that are eligible in terms of retirement?
Chief Tuckerman: I have just one employee who as indicated that he may retire in
April . He asked me about his vacation, when he should take his
vacation, how soon after vacation could he retire. I imagine all his questions
were, I don't think he'd be asking those questions if he didn't really intend to
retire. He is the only one, however, out of 13 or 14 who is actually talking about it
Personnnel Administrator Shaw: I know a lot of people do wait until the minimum
number of days thay can make that decision. It's
nice to know earlier for our purposes.
Chief Tuckerman: That is the way I felt. It is just a feeling, but, I expect,
this is just a feeling on my part, but I expect there will be
more retirees this year.
Can't hear
Chief Tuckerman: Probably get about as far as I do.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Yes, probably. But you can always call the man
and expect to and I mean there is no force or nothing
is trying to harrass or force a person out in that you - simply for record purposes-
you are interested in finding out. I don't see anything negative or legality in
doing a survey asking them that. It can even be a telephone call and see if casually
they are leaving. I'm willing to try it. You don't want to be stuck with a lot of
vacancies and one one to fill it from, and that has got to be considered too.
Chief Tuckerman: I've got a list. How many names on that list now?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: There is a -good 30 names, Charlie.
Chief Tuckerman: I'm all set.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Alright.
Chief Tuckerman: I may not want to hire half of them.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: But, you got names.
Chief Tuckerman: I got the names.
Firefighter Carver: There currently is a list of 30 people?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Yes! Let me explain a second here now. It expires in
July, and we are testing now, this year.
Commissioner Lee: How long does the list last?
Chairperson Wilcox: We just wanted to clarify that. The list. We can extend the
list after a year but it donen't have to last two years.
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Fire Commissioner Slade: Can the list be set up for 2 or 4 years?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: We can go up to 4 years. The commission can at any time
establish a list immediately for 4 years, 3 years, 2
years or 1 year or renew.
Commissioner Lee: Or add future years onto my figures.
Cheif Tuckerman: The request has to come out of my office to have it renewed does
it not? It used to.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: The commission does that itself:
Chief Tuckerman: Good. That is good to know.
Chairperson Wilcox: But, if you have a suggestion, we like to know about that.
Okay, back to the issue of fitness and what the Civil Service
Commission wants to do about it. One, I sort of listed three things that have
come to my mind as we've been talking. The first one is that we leave things as
they are, the second one is that we set standards and guidelines . . . Third, we make
stipulations in the job specs that the firemen fulfill fitness requirements set
out by the Fire Department or Fire Commission, I don't know who would be doing that.
Chief Tuckerman: I think the Fire Department. We have a good idea of what the
conditions are.
Chairperson Wilcox: Okay, so are there any other options that we have? Or does
that cover it?
Fire Commissioner Slade: That should about cover it.
Chairperson Wilcox: Okay. Is there any further discussion about these three at
at this point? Do you feel prepared tonight to decide how we
want to do it, given those three options?
Commissioner Lee: I think if we're going to consider these options we must have
clarification.
Chairperson Wilcox: For Sure! All we would be deciding, if we select one of those
three is what, see, if we choose the third option, then we
are passing the buck to the fire department and they have to lay out all the
specifications and we don't get involved in that. They have already done a lot
of preliminary work which suggests to me that the ground work is laid for their
doing it. On the other hand, if we were to decide to do it, I 'm sure that the
stuff they have already done would be available to us and a lot of it we already
have.
Commissioner Lee: Good questions. Let's see what we write in the specifications.
Chairperson Wilcox: So what we would put in the job spec would be that its a
requirement of the job to fulfill the standards set by the
Fire Department.
Commissioner Lee: I'd like to review. Before I say yes, I 'd like to review.
Chairperson Wilcox: Review the standards?
Commissioner Lee: Yes.
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Personnel Administrator Shaw: By that option you are placing that responsibility
on the department.
Chairperson Wilcox: Yes, that defeats the purpose of giving it to them to do.
Okay, do you want to make a motion?
Firefighter Carver: May I suggest, perhaps, that it might be appropriate to set
the standards before the test so that it could be a condition
of a persons employment and would be subject to change later on a fire officers
discretion.
Commissioner Lee: You talking about physical conditions?
Firefighter Carver: The physical ability a person has to have through their career
should be set before they start, I think.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: I think it is too soon to make this decision.
Commissioner Lee: I don't know if you are going to be able to get all that in,
you could I guess the term would be grandfathering.
Chairperson Wilcox: I don't think he's talking about grandfathering right now.
Commissioner Lee: No. I'm talking about a new test, in terms of there is an up and
coming physical whatever. Subject to people employed as of, from
what test date you are talking about, the one we have coming up now. I don't
think he is going to be able to get it all written up by this test.
Chairperson Wilcox: My impression was that the reason that we are meeting tonight
and not next month is so that we can have some impact on this
test and I'm not sure that_ it is necessary for all of the specifics to be determined
by that time, but we can still make our stipulation. How would that work? If we
put it in our job spec that they have to fullfill those requirements and you have
sonething to give Bob to include.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: I think it would be helpful to have if not the full
specifications, to have a good skeletal type frame-
work before the recruitment and testing. I think because Bob and I are doing a
recruitment, an outreach kind of recruitment campaign for this test and this in the
specifications and someone should come to us and say well exactly what are those
physical requirements, can you give me some idea. We are going to be at a loss
if nothing is, at least a framework something general . By the time the applicants
start coming in, that will be one of the questions. You see what I mean?
Chairperson Wilcox: You said something earlier about being able to put your hands
on or get programs that you know of.
Chief Tuckerman: We already have some programs.
Firefighter Carver: The state has standards for candidates, perhaps you. . . .
Chairperson Wilcox: But, we were talking about you doing it and not us.
Firefighter Carver: Alright. . . . Right now they havea physical test available,
is that right?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: For candidates , yes.
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Firefighter Carver: Candidates have to have a physicians physical and a -physical
capability test also.
Commissioner Lee: During their probationary period there is a . . . physical . . .
Firefighter Carver: It's required that they have training by State law. That
they have training from physical fitness but the standard I
gave you doesn't spell out any level that they have to meet. It merely says that
the municipality has to provide training, physical fitness training.
Commissioner Lee: It's section 4206, Section 6, Line E.
Firefighter Carver: The municipality has to have a physical fitness program designed
and develop and maintain the physical fitness necessary to
perform duties as a Firefighter.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: And that's in State law?
Fire Commissioner Slade: That's right.
Commissioner Slaght: But that is already in effect, right now?
Firefighter Carver: It is in effect that the municipality has to provide a program
for a person during their training period.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: But it doesn't continue on to make sure that they
stay in that kind of shape.
Chief Tuckerman: That is the problem.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: After they get through with that training, that's
what the Chief is having the big problem with.
The specifications, I think. When you say they must meet the minimum physical
fitness standards set by the department, in that the physical fitness thing can
require that an annual physical fitness test or exam or whatever is given and you
must meet that standard at that point or you have a probationary period of so long
to get back in shape and you will be retested. They can go into all that,
when you are giving them, you know, the option of saying the authorities set
those standards.
Chairperson Wilcox: But addressing you statement before which is that when potential
candidates come to you and ask you the question what do I
have to do, you need to be able to spell it out.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Spell out at least a few things in general . Like you
need to be able to tell them that okay. . . There is
an endurance test, there's this test, there is this kind of test, and then just be
able to tell them some general kind of things like there is an annual requirement
that you go through a physical fitness examination and physical tests and you
have to meet that every year-a Icing-As you are-.empioyed ,by the/Ci.ty:as a Firefighter.
You know, those kind of specifics I think we need to know to tell them because
maybe somebody that said, well , if I become a firefighter I pass this exam now,
I've seen some fat firefighters , so I guess I really don't have to keep lifting
weights or working out. That is what you want to get rid of so you spurn that,
because we have these out reach things in the community centers and various
locations around town and people come in and its an open door kind of thing and
individuals can come in to us one on one about specific questions about not so much
the test but what is it I have to do, in order to be a firefighter.
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Firefighter Carver: You can certainly tell them what's in here because thats
been established for candidates. That they will have to meet
that initially and one possibility for the commission to consider is that you
could merely say that a person during his employment will have to continue to
meet the standards under which he was hired.
Chairperson Wilcox: But whats in here? All it says is exceptable physical standards.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: No, I 'm referring to this for police and firefighters.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: That's what she is referring to, too. •
Firefighter Carver: I think there are four different parts of the exam.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: You are thinking of the agility test and that agility
test comes way at the end after we get them through
the written test, the physical , the Wasserman, the X-ray, the EKG, which brings up
an interesting point about a stress EKG. Also, the pulmonary function. Then, when
we get them through all that, we finally send them to the agility test, that is
the last one.
Firefighter Carver: I'm merely saying that these standards could be continued.
Chairperson Wilcox: Okay, that what you said in your memo to the Mayor.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: I guess what they want to do is to set up some sort
or ongoing physical fitness program that the guys
can participate in whether its setting up a room for exercises, and equipment and
Budget and Administration has to buy the stuff.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Or the firefighters union.
Chief Tuckerman: We'e not talking about a great deal of expense to get the equipment
necessary. . . . The equipment that we have got in the department
already many departments are using that. Ladders , carrying the ladders. Going up
and down ladders, carrying the hose. . . that sort of thing. This is a training
program, physical fitness program, many of these departments were developed. And
this is what I am thinking of developing, not going out and buying some big
expensive piece of equipemnt.
Chairperson Wilcox: So if the candidates come to speak with you and you can say
that you know, what approximately, what the physical or
physical fitness exams are currently required, and you can say that the fire
department is in the process of developing a program for ongoing fitness, and you
don't know exactly what is going to be involved.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: But, would we be able to tell them that it would be
a continuous thing throughout their employment and on
a yearly basis that the program would be continuous and the standard would be
checked or tested once a year, twice a year, or whatever. If those general kinds
of things like that, what the Chief and department and the commissioners expectations
are for ongoing, continuously meeting those kind of, how you intend to test it, you
know, to provide some mechanism for them to help them meet it. If you can get
that kind of thing for us in a statement then that would be sufficient for us in
terms of our outreach effort.
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Fire Commissioner Anderson: It has to be general anyway.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Yes! You can't be specific.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: The program will continue to change anyway.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Every year? Whatever the needs are? Because it
may not be weight, it may be agility that everybody
is lacking and then you will need to zero in on that one year and then the next
year might be weight.
Chairperson Wilcox: Okay, we don't have a job spec here, do we?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Not right here, no.
Chairperson Wilcox: I'm trying to think of what we as a commission want to to at
this point. Shouldn't we let you write up something and then
give us a call or do you want . . .
Executive Secretary Pezdek: For what, the job spec or the announcement, examination
announcement, which?
Chairperson Wilcox: The job spec, no the announcement. You'll have to work with
Charlie on that.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: We have to announce that sometime next week at the .
latest, the exam.
Chairperson Wilcox: So what we need to do is amend that job spec.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Not necessarily so, we can amend the announcement and
come back with the job spec later.
Chairperson Wilcox: Okay, If its okay to to it in that order.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Why not? You know, continuning physical fitness program
is under consideration by the fire department. Candidates
taking this examination if such a program is adopted, you will be expected to
conform to the standards set.
Chairperson Wilcox: Where are you going to put that. I don't like that.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: On the exam announcement.
Commissioner Slade: Down at the bottom where it mentions right now you have an
existing... you have to take the physical . . . another paragraph
or something. . .
Chairperson Wilcox: Okay, but I would like to say that it should be put just
slightly more positively. My reaction had to do with maybe but
that the fire department is in the process of establishing requirements which will . . .
Commissioner Lee: You're saying its going to be binding on the applicant?
Chairperson Wilcox: Yes.
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Executive Secretary Pezdek: Or on the person who is hired?
Commissioner Lee: What you're saying is you're putting it on the job spec.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: In term of annual physical fitness requirements
were stated or something.
Chairperson Wilcox: Well , but we're talking more than annual , we're talking about
an an ongoing program.
Commissioner Lee: No. No. Its two. One is the physical program itself and the
second is an annual physical , which is a maintenance system.
Chairperson Wilcox: Right! And you're talking about that too, as I understand it,
the two things.
Commissioner Lee: We're making it. . . and binding by us, the commission establishing
that its binding upon the City, therefore, the city is brought
into condition of trying to support the program.
Chief Tuckerman: Yes.
Chairperson Wilcox: Yes, well , that is to be worked out in detail . . .
Commissioner Lee: Wouldn't it be nice if the union supported it?
Firefighter Carver: The union? I think in talking about changing the job specificat-
ions that is probably the case, that what we are interested in,
providing for the future.
Commissioner Lee: It makes sense to me. I 'm not in a position to say it because
of the position I'm in, but it would make an awful lot of sense
to me if the union also thought of it as being an added incentive for their
members to partially fund the porject as well also and turn around and probably
create a longevity of its memebers.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: And probably a great deal of good will .
Personnel Administrator Shaw: The Chief says that in terms of costs, you do not
forsee any major costs.
Chief Tuckerman: The major costs would be the annual physical , as far as the
program itself. Implementing the physical fitness program,
that's not a major cost.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: That has been the physical examination. The physical
exam, that is going to go through anyway, right?
So, then onto. . . so that's something this commission doesn't have to do.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: I don't think so, no.
Chairperson Wilcox: And it certainly seems to me not to make sense for us to.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: I think that B & A committee should be made aware by
the commission that there is a potentially very
expensive item in the offing.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: I think the Human Services Committee would be the
first one to approach.
• 191 R
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Why them?
Fire Commissioner Anderson: Because they deal directly with us and then those
people also serve the B & A Committee. When we
get to Human Services Committee first we have the B & A Committee wrapped up.
Chief Tuckerman: We have to go through the Human Services before we go to B & A.
But essentially, when we go the Human Services, we're talking
to B & A anyway.
Chairperson Wilcox: We should probably put something together that we can send to
all the relevant committees, to the Mayor, to whatever.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: I would even suggest sending it to the President of
the union, so that they too can officially be aware
of what is happening.
Chairperson Wilcox: Yes, something in writing for them. And it could probably be
the same thing. Do you want to put that together. I don't
know if it makes sense to. . . By sending something to Common Council would we be
covering all the Committees?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Yes, all the members of Council are part of . . .
Chief Tuckerman: You send it to Council , it goes to a committee anyway, depending
on what committee is responsible for that . . .
Chairperson Wilcox: What I was suggesting was sending it to the Council members.
Chief Tuckerman: It wouldn't be a bad idea.
Chairperson Wilcox: So the Mayor, Common Council , you.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Fire Department, Fire Board and the Union.
Chairperson Wilcox: Right, and anybody else that you can think of?
Chief Tuckerman: I can't see any reason why Common Council would be opposed to this.
This could be a benefit to the city as a whole, bringing our
people up to where they should be. I think the number of compensation cases we have,
I think we'll see that drop. I think the sickness due to injury and so on is going
to drop drastically.
Commissioner Lee: Which person brought up, what is it, a $20.000 figure?
Chairperson Wilcox: That was in Mike's report.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Thinking of the competition and police officers
getting in shape too?
Commissioner Lee: Hazel , you're not asking for much are you!
Chief Tuckerman: I don't want to comment on our police department. I can only say
that they have in the past shown some of their members have shown
interest in some type of program, such as this. How they feel today, I don't know.
191 S
Personnel Administrator Shaw: I think that type of thing is negotiable
Chairperson Wilcox: Along those lines, I think that one of the spinoffs of getting
something established, is that competitive spirit among people
being what it is is that it does spread almost by itself, and as you said, you
know people have been doing stuff on their own already and thats probably some
difference . . .
(Can't hear tape)
Commissioner Lee: I also like the idea where you are turning around and saying this
is the time, we'll do it while we're here. I don't see
anything wrong with that at all . I think it is a good idea.
Chief Tuckerman: Well , this is working out very well nationwide. If you had the time
I could give you the list of departments throughout the nation -
fully paid departments - that have already implemented this and when they are
building new fire houses they are building in the fire houses a recreation area
or physical fitness area for a squad or whatever, it's being done.
Chairperson Wilcox: Okay, I think we now have to tackle the age question.
Commissioner Lee: I think we got around it pretty good.
Chairperson Wilcox: We certainly avoided it for a long time.
Chief Tuckerman: We've got a Board of Fire Commissioners, we've got a staff from
the Fire Department and you've got the union all saying we should
lower the age to age 29. Then why do we have the problem?
Chairperson Wilcox: I 'm not sure there is a problem. That is what we're here to
talk about. There may be, I don't know. I think that the
reasons for raising it to begin with are not to be disregarded. The Commission at
that time made a very considered judgement, and so obviously, since, it has come
up again it is something that is an important issue, and we can go at it. One
of the questions which arose at the meeting last time was whether the fitness
maintenance program would be addressing this same issue.
Firefighter Carver: In other words, if people were in shape, we wouldn't have to
worry so much about the age guidelines?
Chairperson Wilcox: Yes.
Firefighter Carver: That's probably true.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: From what I 've read from the literature Mike has
provided, there is definately a correlation between
being in shape and your age. You don't deteriate, as rapidly as, if you just sit
there. If you are in shape, the age is a minimal factor. One of the articles
pointed out that body fat was the biggest deterient to job performance.
Chairperson Wilcox: As we think about this, I think the statement that was made
last time, I 'm not sure by whom was, the major objective in
considering this kind of desicion is that we have a fire department that consists
•
191 T
of people who can do the job in the best possible way, and . . . I still don't
feel like I have the same kind of overwhelming proof of the age question as I
did about the physical fitness program. So, I guess I invite you to speak
some more to that question.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: What seems to be the problem with age 29? Age 30? I
mean I have heard your comments and so forth but the
type of work that is involved, it just makes common sense that we have younger men
starting out in the profession instead of older people. I mean we want to start
it now so we can build a fire department of younger personnel as we go along and if
its someone who has been in the military service and qualified that will take care
of some of the older people almost to age 35.
Chairperson Wilcox: That is one of the things that I think all of us probably did
some thinking about and the fact that 6 years can be added to
the minimum age is a problem that we have no control over. We cannot say you cannot
add those 6 years if you have been in the service but what that does is to force a
cut off of other people who are likely to be equally well qualified in terms of
everything, in terms of coordination, ability and desire.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: In other words, by the time they reach 29, why all of
a sudden or 30, all of a sudden do they say they want
to be a firefighter. Why didn't they decise that at age 20 20 21, to become a
firefighter?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Maybe they were in the service at the time. Who knows?
Fire Commissioner Anderson: That's true, that's true.
Firefighter Carver: Actually, I thank there is a justification for the 6 years in
that someone who was in the military would perhaps be in
better physical condition just by nature of that.
Chairperson Wiclox: Might be somebody who was a gymnast. You know, who didn't
happen to the in the service.
Firefighter Carver: You were saying you had no control over it. And I 'm trying to
say it might not be all that bad because they might be in
better physical condition because of their time in the service so they would be
comparable to someone of the age of 25.
Chairperson Wilcox: But See, that's what I keep hearing, that if the fitness
level is high enough at a higher age then the age isn't as
much of an issue.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: I think one of the other problems is that you take a
man in at 35 and he has got 6 years to tack on, by that
time he is 41.
Executive Vecretary Pezdek: No! No! Thirty-five would be the maximum that you
tack on, If he was 29, you tack on 6 to make him 35.
If he is 35, you can't tack on the 6 years.
Chairperson Wilcox: No! No! He is saying that if the age limit is 35.
191 U
Executive Secretary Pezdek: You can't tack on t. State law prevents that.
Firefighter Carver: Wasn't it in the job announcement the last time it was
published? You can add on 6 years, I think, Bob.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: You add on 6 years if you are in that.
Chairperson Wilcox: Oh, that's what I remember. So 35 no matter what is the top
age limit, so if a vet and you're 32 you can add three years
but not six.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Thirty-five is the top cut off limit.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: Thirty-five is the top cut off?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Thirty-five is the top cut off.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: Regardless.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Regardless.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: I don't think it was ever explained that way. This
it the first we have heard of that.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: You have to know the Law. It is ambiguous, but its there
Fire Commissioner Anderson : Quite obvious.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Thirty-five is the maximum measuring point, period.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: It makes it easy for a volunteer to come in an test
at 35 or 40, makes me shudder. When we see a volunteer
come in at 35 or 40, we shudder to see that man come in at that age because you
know he is going to be burned out in two or three years because of the strain and
stress involved in the business.
Chairperson Wilcox: I guess another thing to point out is if a person reaches the
age of 35 while they are on the list, they are no longer a
candidate for the position. They get removed form the list. So, if they pass the
test at age 34, become 35 the following year, and their name is still on the list
they get taken off.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: They have to hope for a vacancy or an appointment
within that year before they turn 35.
Chairperson Wilcox: Right!
Commissioner Slaght: This new age limit came in what, three years ago? How many
did you hire in that age bracket, over the past three years?
Also, how many did test at an older age?
Chief Tuckerman: One.
Commissioner Slaght: You hired just one?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: It was three, actually. The oldest one hired was
Mendzef.
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Fire Commissioner Slade: Mendzef was the last one hired.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: He is the oldest one hired also. Reynolds is much
younger.
Chairperson Wilcox: How old is this fellow?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Thirty-three or thirty-four, I think. Yes, around
thirty-three or thirty-four. He was hired in at
around thirty-one or thirty-two.
Fire Commissioner Slade: We have the potential depending on the possible retirements
upcoming of a bunch of them coming up and we'll be hiring
a whole bunch of firefighters. because of the possibility of so many retirements
coming up, which is a little unusual .
Chairperson Wilcox: Maybe another thing to keep in mind is that you always have a
pool of people to hire from. There isn't just one, you always
have at least three and I don't know what the probability would be but it is
probably unlikely that you wouldn't have, you know of those three at least one
younger person and so I suppose what you are doing, what happens is that it is
also possible that you would have one or two older persons.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Is it logical to reason if a person were, you know,
already had to meet their physical fitness requirements
is it logical to reason that that person who is hired and appointed at age 35 who
meets these minimum physical qualifications and is in good shape at 35, iS it
reasonable to assume that that person has apparently worked at keeping him or
herself in shape and that's a good person to have around for 20 years because if
they immensely took the time to remain in good shape until 35. . . . getting hired
as a firefighter that they will continue to do that, and that most people we have
to prod and pick up out of the chair and put in a truck and go sic em fire.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: Not necessarily. I'm sure we like to think that when
we hire someone that they would stay more than the
minimum 20 years, they would stay for 25 or maybe 26 or 27. Its expensive to
train them too.
There were general comments at this point.
Chief Tuckerman: How would we know that.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Old dogs, new tricks.
Commissioner Slaght: Do all firefighters stay on for 20 years?
Chief Tuckerman: We have found, we can verify that by our records , that yes, they
do stay on. It is hard to get rid of them.
Firefighter Carver: You mean 20 years for your retirement plan. If you'd like
to retire, you have to have over 20 years.
Personnel Administrator Shaw: Yes , you have to have 20 to do this .
Fire Commissioner Anderson: I want to ask you a question. We hve 15 right now
that can retire this year?
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Executive Secretary Pezdek: Maybe the thing to do is say 20 years and out, by
State law.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: He may have 20 years service, but is not 60 yet.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Unless you are an officer.
Chairperson Wilcox: That was my other question, whether many of them stayed -
tend to stay beyond, you know, the 25. They do stay up to age
62.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: And that man who is just 30 years has just started taking
this program the Chief is talking about to get himself
back together.
Chief Tuckerman: Why, because he wants to get himself back in physical condition.
Chairperson Wilcox: So he can continue doing a good job.
Chief Tuckerman: That's right.
Can't hear the tape.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: No, this guy never did exercise until the last two or
three months or so but he was always active off his job,
doing labor work, running heavy equipment, that tended to keep him in condition.
Chairperson Wilcox: Why don't you review for us in some sort of summary, I know
that you have done it a hundred times before and whoever wants
to take it on is welcome to it. It's obvious that you are so convinced that this
needs to happen and you know, why don't you just go over the reasons for that again.
Firefighter Carver: I'd like to suggest merely that we hire people that are in
good physical condition and to provide a means for them to
stay in good physical condition throughout their career. In other words, I would
like to address the job specifications to provide for that as opposed to present
employees.
Commissioner Lee: I think that the system that you are proposing to improvise, that
you have a check and balance system that you are also putting
in, that you have a person who's body at 35, who is physical can't make it after
15 years, isn't being able to turn around and keep up with the program based on
the specifications that we' re talking about, putting on physical exams, that
is a . . . process. Basically that is what you are talking about now, you 're
talking about a useful , functional , efficient work force and you're basing it on
physical fitness being kept to a specific standard set by whoever at this point
and that if you do have, in this case we have a maximum age of 35, if a person is
hired and he has gone through the training and he is into the physical fitness
program and is unable to keep up with it it is a self defeating process.
Chairperson Wilcox: If there is follow through on the fact that there is standards
that have to be met and you don't meet them, then you can' t. . .
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Then you are out. That's going to have to come
somewhere in the standards, and Charlie and I are going
to get stuck with that and unfortunately its_like a Section 65 or Section 75 and
those are nasty things to handle and if these things are going to be put in there
its going to have to have very careful attention addressed to those procedures
and how its done.
191 X
Chairperson Wilcox: I would guess that the difficult thing is that kind of thing
stems at least in part from the fact that by the time it
becomes an issue you've had a long time to develop a
relationship with these folks and probably like them and that makes it all that much
harder to say you are not cutting the mustard and you are off the force.
Chief Tuckerman: It is hard. I 've had to do it, but it can be done. I don't
especially care to do it but for the good of the department I do it.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Because even if the Board of Fire Commissioners develops
those standards , as Charlie said, this is going to
happen so you have got to be prepared for that. You're going to have to be prepared
first of all to establish that standard, establish where the cut off point is ,
why a guy or gal can't make it, and if they can't make it, then they are out. It's
hard, and as Charlie says, I don't like to deal with those, but God, we have to.
You know its part of what we have to do.
Chief Tuckerman: It's hard and cold,but its our business.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: You have to lay a paper trail .
Commissioner Lee: That is why we are here today. So I think the age bracket of 35,
granted is high,and its been put in to, at least to my understand-
ing, was to encompass a great number of people, a larger selection, and at time,
my understanding of it encompassing as many different programs as were there
during that period, I don't know what age, to sit down and arbitrailly at a
particular age.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: Thirty-five it is a maximum, right?
Ececutive Secretary Pezdek: Yes.
Commissioner Lee: That's 35 is the maximum now, period.
Chairperson Wilcox: Has knowing that altered your thinking at all as far as
lowering?
Fire Commissioner Anderson: If it was out on the floor, I would hire guys at age 32.
Chairperson Wilcox: We aren't restricted to 29 or 35.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: Right. That number was picked just because it was
picked, the only other reason mine. . . the age was
picked because we had it before.
Chief Tuckerman: 29?
Fire Commissioner Anderson: Yes.
Fire Chief Tukerman: Because that was true in 1974.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: Okay, basically because of the police department.
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Fire Chief Tuckerman: They had regulations the departments they followed back then.
I didn't see any reason why those guidelines wern't being
followed today.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Fire departments traditionally never had this until the
police started theirs and then fire said: "Gee, we
need something, and civil service commissions around the state would do the whole
survey on this , and said the easiest way to go is just slap the fire department with
the police department standards, and be done with it. Lock, stock, and barrel ,
and that's exactly what happened.
Chief Tuckerman: Unfortunately, every standard is not quite high enough for me.
Commissioner Lee: You're not in the service, you know. I was also looking in
terms of figures - a person goes into the service at 17 and 21
and they come out in ten years. You're talking anywhere from 27 to 30, and you
give them a year or two to kick around to see what they feel like doing, you
would come up with about 32, as far as getting a speciman that has been beefed
up by the service, first.
Chairperson Wilcox: How many veterans have applied, do you know?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: No, I 'd have to go through the applications one by one.
Commissioner Lee: I was looking at the figures they gave us. We have 15 people
between 36-40, and then the next highest number of people is
between 46 and 50. Otherwise you have 3,5,4,4,5. The big numbers are 15 and 8.
34% of the work force.
Fire Commissioner Anderson: You don't want the age maximun of 35 because you are
going to eliminate a lot of people right there, because
of their service.
Chairperson Wilcox: Bob. for clarification, if we set the age at 32, then can vet
points bring it up beyond 32?
Executive Secretary Pezdek: No, the commission can set that. The vets points can
be added up to the maximum age, you know, reduce the
age to, see there's the clue, make the cut off point at 32 period, regardless of vet
points or no vet points, added in regardless of the number of years of service,
which is maximum 6.
Chairperson Wilcox: Yes , that is what we need to do.
Executive Secretary Pezdek: Yes , that you can do.
Chairperson Wilcox: Okay, you know compromises tend to be appealing to me. What
are your thoughts? If somebody were to cone on at 32 that
means the could retire at 52 or go for 10 more years , if they chose to stay until
then or retirement age.
Fire Cheif Tuckerman : If I may? In three years we would have a better idea what
it looks like, this program, as to whether this age should
be lowered or perhaps we could raise it back to 35. We'd have a guideline We'd
have something to go by.
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Chairperson Wilcox: Right So, in the meantime, your desire is to have it lowered
and giving you a chance to see how it works out. I don' t
suppose its necessary to talk in terms of building in some sort
of review process, that will happen by itself.
Commissioner Lee: Then I think we can come to an accord with an age of 32.
I make the motion we lower the age requirement from 35 to 32 for
firefighters.
Sommissiner Slaght: I ' ll second it.
Chairperson Wilcox: Any further discussion.
The commission then voted. Motion carried unanimously.
Chairperson Wilcox adjourned the meeting at 9:45 P.M.
ATTEST: January 17, 1984
Louise S. Wilcox, Chairperson Joseph W. Lee, Commissioner
Mary Slaght, Commissioner Robert V. Pezdek, Executive Secretary
•
CHANGE IN TITLE j i
Campbell , Robert From Laborer to Student Aide Sch. Dist. 12/22/83
La ue, Nea 1 " " " "
RETURN FROM LEAVE OF ABSENCE
Tharp, John School Bus Driver - Sch. Dist. 9/1/83
West, Susan "
Seconded by Commissioner Slaght. Motion carried.
ATTEST: January 10, 1983;;'e
Louise S. Wilcox, Chairpers n Joseph W. Lee, Commissioner
)71 ,440
Mary Slag mmis oner Robert V. Pezd , Secretary
PUBLIC HEARING
CITY OF ITHACA CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION
February 14, 1984
Present: Chairperson Wilcox, Commissioner Slaght, Executive Secretary Pezdek,
Barbara J. Lund
Chairperson Wilcox called the Public Hearing to order at 7:37 P. M.
Chairperson Wilcox requested Executive Secretary Pezdek to read the Notice of
the Public Hearing. Mr. Pezdek read the notice as follows :
"Please take note that pursuant to Section 20 of the Civil
Service Law of the State of New York, the City of Ithaca
Civil Service Commission will hold a Public Hearing on
February 14, 1984, at 7:30 P. M. , in the Conference Room,
Third Floor, City Hall , 108 East Green Street, Ithaca,
New York, to amend its Rules as follows: To include
in Rule XIV, Probationary Term in Section 1 (a) the sentence:
The probationary term for the City Engineer will be one
year. All interested parties and citizens for or against
the adoption of the proposed change are invited to attend
and be heard."
RESOLUTION TO OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING: Commissioner Slaght
Resolved that the public hearing be open. Seconded by Chairperson Wilcox. Motion
carried.
Chairperson Wilcox invited Ms. Barbara J. Lund to address the Commission.
Ms. Lund stated that she was the former City Engineer. She asked what the
present rule on the probationary term was for the City Engineer's position.
Mr. Pezdek replied that it was �sdxihwnths.