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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1969-08-25 r- G ADJOURNED MEETING r August 25 , 1969 1 Supervisor Cortright called the adjourned town board meeting to order at 8 : 00 P . M . at the old Danby Fire House . Present : Supervisor James H . Cortright Councilman Donald Makie Councilman Ralph Wilbur Justice Floyd Dorn Standard Englnnering Corporation Project Engineer James Green Absent : Justice A . Francis Wright , Purpose of the Meeting : To review with the engineer mainly the bills pre - sented to us by Standard Engineering . Each member was given a list of the entire expenditures made since the out - set of the Water District , including the $ 30 , 000 . 00 borrowed from the Tompkins County Trust Co . on bond anticipation note , and the Grant - in-aid and the loan from FHA and the $ 75 , 000 . 00 bond anticipation note . Councilman Makie wanted a clarification of the bills from Standard Engineering amounting to $ 35 , 000 . 00 and Danby has paid them $ 53 , 000 . 00 ( round figures ) . He understands about the $10 , 000 . where the well completion is but not the other $10 , 000 . Supervisor Cortright stated Standard ' s total billing to us is $33 , 283 . 61 . Green : Understands our confusion . Normally do not invoice this way anymore , unless client requests it . Basically there have been three separate billings to us . The last billing we received included the percentage for construction , supervision , exploration of the well site which Layne -Hall did through the engineer , determination of yield and , professional services - -which is clear . The $ 199 , 000 . 00 is what was paid by Danby to Compagni . Makie .: Right , on which we base the engieering fee . Green : Right . Compagni did not put the well or the pump in . He put the building up . Layne - Hall put the well and pump in and rather than go through the process of bidding , etc . , it was handled , As an engineering service so we got the pumps wanted , saved advertising . Makie : Just ' like was done with the geophysical . . Green : That is what the $10 , 344000 is - -handled through Standard Engineering . Charged a percent for handling . Makie : No question about that . Green : This gets two of them out of the way . Other problem is the $ 10 , 000 . Another special service is surveying and advertising and that is what the third invoice was for - - our personnel doing the survey work that they did . Makie : What survey work ? Green. : Elevations level , location structures , etc . , and on top of this - -also advertising expenses which3ou have bills for this . Makie : I don ' t recall seeing this . Green : Probably an old one September 30 , 1968 Pause while checking for the bill . Cortright asked what total of bill is , Wilbur answered - $ 9 , 382 . 16 . Green asked Cortright if he had an invoice . Cortright said we would have an estimate on it and starting looking when he wrote the check . Makie : This special cervices puts it in a very special category . .Green : Well , this is a Standard Engineering contract although I didn ' t write it Wilbur : 10082 , 61 , that ' s what the check was apparently written for , right ? Some mention of balance . Makie said balance was $ 632 . 870 check written . Green : Thought he could tell date check was paid , but could not because we IIhad to come back with another payment . Makie : Thinks this is where bills have been doubled , and that engineering services are in the contract for surveying . Ant water district has to have this and is appalled at the amount of surveying . We had six grand worth of surveying done by lawyer and so it can ' t include right - of-way surveying or inquiring and securing . Feels a duplication of engineering services . Water District map surveying was done by Tom Miller , your boys haven ' t done any surveying . Green : kiave to disagree . Would have to go through all the time sheets . Did glance through them , and there are surveys other than right=of - i ay surveys . Makie : Almost the value of the engineering work for the whole thing . Am looking forward to hearing you say is that through bookkeeping i ADJOURNED MEETING - August 25 , 1969 2 t errors , that bills have been duplicated , because this just isn ' t \ included in the contract . In 19690 you didn ' t have this work to ' if do . Your order is 1965 . Green : No , that ' s your order . ( Points to a date of the invoice and to other invoice . ) In fact did check the time sheets ' osome of the work was done ( small amount ) back in May 1968 , but never invoiced until August 310 1968 . Makie : Why was this not included in final bill along with the well - - - obviously your work . Yet you claim the total contract engineering services thirty - five grand approximately minus the well . You ' ve left the part of the well out but left the geophysical in and the II drawdown test . This bothers me . Green : Quite frankly , cannot explain why it was done separately . Makie : With this kind of errors and the cost for engineering runs up to 25% of the total cost of the i oject , does not make sense , does it ? Green : No5in that respect , but remember , over 10 and 12 thousand of it is in wells . Makie : All right , you add 10 to your 35 grand , that ' s 45 thousand - - that ' s the quarter I ' m talking about . Green : ' You ' re still off . Makie : The whole project is $1970000 . 00 , your bill is $ 2500000000 we have paid you $ 52 , 000000 , runs it down to $ 42 , 000 . 00 . Pretty high engineer = ing services . Green : ( Does some figuring ) Has $ 35 , 000 . 00 alone for solid boring , well in - vestigation , drilling , surveying by others , resident inspection , putting in the pumps and the wells . Billed for 53 , 000 . 0 leaves 180000 . spent for engineering . Makie : Why didn ' t you include this here ? Green : Quite frankly , I cannot answer that . . Agree that this is P. poor way of billing , and do not bill like this unless requested . Had I ' realized this was the concern , would have found out before coming heres-under impression matter of total in figures . Makie : Have no way of knowing what the project cost unless we have a bill for it and you say the total bill to you is this, ; Then look in the books what has been paid and there is a x` ' 20 , 000 . 00 difference . . It is disturbing and bad for you . Green : Perhaps it's disturbing when you see this and then find out you ' ve paid $ 53 , 000 . 00 . For an example , a village working for now , is being billing altogether , but now will have to break up the billing because cf the government agency which is loaning the money ° Will be faced with same problem- - not one invoice from the engineers that gives the total cost - -take about three and add together and keep account of it . Makie : This would be alright . We started from the beginning of the project and suddenly found Standard Engineering was paid $ 200000 . 00 less than was sent . Here ' s the stuff from Layne and stuff is left out. . This is our probheaa, particularly when we ' re short of money and need to borrow more . . Cortright : Talked with Jliii Green and was under the impression the difference was between what we paid Standard Engineering and what the boos shows Makie looks over the contract . What special studies were done for ( 109000'. 00 to which Mr . Green said he would have to look at the time sheets but it is surveying . Makie asked what kind of surveying - -we , hired Tom Miller to do surveying of property . Cortright. The only surveying Miller did was the 27 acres on the side of the hill but the whole district had to surveyed . Standard Engineers were Isk in there day after day . WIP Green : Houses had to be located . The reason Standard did not do the 27 acres is that they are not a licensed surveying outfit . Makie : I want to see your records for $ 10 , 000 . 00 worth of surveying in the Water District and the boundaries because Miller made the boundary map . ` o property lines . Green : There is a lot more surveying than just locating pr p y Estimates for quantities such as length of pipe , number of services_ ,. etc . has to be done before going out to bid . Makie : ' You dicta t do that in the field . Green. : Welr;-- - _-- - - ah Makie : ,That ,' s part of your engineering work . You ' ve got to show me you day where you did ten grand worth of surveying in the field because' we paid Tom Miller for the district and surveying our lot and a g od . price , 27 acres and right -of -way for the road should have been a lot less , but he did lay the district map for us - -had quite a hold-up r 4 n 231 • I . . , •ADJOURNED MEETING - August 25 , 1969 ' , waiting for Miller to do it nad that ' s taken :Fight of went . You ' re telling me the wrong thi ,J off the ss® es- Greens . No's• ImmYfelling you the wrong thing . DonIt : I ' m trying to shoot your line because I ' m notfi/ the , impreesion hat Are ' 'ail invoices approved by the Board ? Makie s That ! s right Green : . Well ; this : was done almost a ' at that time ? year ago � .�whay was . it' ilot questioned• Marie : ' I assumed that this was something Tom Miller did and that it w s . 411 ' within this contract . Special servicee ' are ' not described here " and then come up with a bill that is X20 , 000 ;. 00 ' less, and it. °doesnTt include : this. . " . a Greens " If yqu would like an invodc , . ' MarieThat s ��d - � «dc, a;o® . . 1 , right , and then I ' m going Mt ' 'sk you what •�a ' ' services ' you performed for us . y � ' these epe.'cSal Greens ' I ' ll spell it ' out for -, which „ gill tell you , come , "back and say) we you , If I tel1%: you surve'yingdyou ' riII: still didn ' t survey so , ,;we ale s1:', :: • ;;at n i"r pas $ e . ' kie . • Th E , ey didn � t , do • an ` " y � survedy hi Cortrighti . ' Don! ' •sSp• there an say they didn S sa r t st ' ; �t . S' hayer 'Marti. . and • , two poop . out there on the Wh e le " of ' 'C1� Sng 'they wall�ed� • t'h• { , ' thing- a t wow' them do it . i ,� , hole Greenz. They explored six different well . sites , . ' r '' . Nakie :; You have not demonstrated 10 as ' sISUrveyi ' a l. et ' : grand worth Of s�r�reyl;ng .. m ' ' , � ' � , • Green; What + does' it take to 'demonstrate it to you ? . Nakie t Tell , me what is your necessit for 10 rand' " worth of ' , 's' , ' ,,.• y g urvey' irig ah .. all ' . . ' A° other design you have to do for i8 , o00 , 4 Ifs , i, t .. Zs: ' a • n ecessj t y' how come itisn ' t in those en Sneers ng � rviesthat youag' ® ed : to do this project for ? •Green : ' There is a book which 'American Society of ' Civil Engineering puts ' out ' written for engineers and also for municpal.ities' . 00king , for, ' ! ' ' . ' engiieersM-primarily so municipalities would ' uriderstand what an, . '` engineering contract is . ' etika 4 our contract around 'hiss , bo® k: I . Unfortunately ,, this contract refer t to the ' book Th'le :book , hoe ' 064 41 services listed one of which is sufveysk r any; ,,type heeded . Makie s You tall it special studies ; send us a bill and. Re hate ,, to p `:,. . ' r . thi':k we should have a meeting , and you knowthtvwe feel . and. , tthat t. s about it ,. The main thing is . ' it , was worth . g p ' you already. i, ndicatec ',• 'What, you thought ' Wish .. :� Gnaw ! ' the •;invoice was Cox°t questioned at time , rsght. ; adked Dorn and Wilbur for any ` , k; ' Doing ' No . y comientp''i ' Wilbti�r , wadll ' t on the boa �` � �. � t rd at the sit�.tion . start and net am v Makin t This aS (ib�mga . +, j j t approve eethething like • ' hie that~ i 0. coo. • 00 short . Appreciates that Standard Engineeting, . ha, s . been ' eery ' good ' about holding back bills and waiting until finanoi = man . ' Ss Settled but ' tryin# to look for With the ver y y people working on this , ,, , billinetliktofigit been doubled up . : You ( Green ) are , ?the , one• Who ; knows that , _ i A Cortright ( to Green ) Can• this be picked Mom the timesheets? Gram ' About ' all , is when they did it , C ` worked : y � u,1 ccntaet different �'3�,es Who ° Makia referred to /elevations to which Green wished him o ±niiude every thing . t , Green : It i, e not double billing . It is post ± b,le to: oompare to other contracts tMaki;'es. 10 grand , fair special studies on tarp ' ot.. pel,a5, stadiob ; , did is too mtichwasowe special. studied more than wed ered . .. , Greens That ; sbmetitnes happens , serf sly . Makie t In tri, is case I don ' t believer nd all I tm ' as- ki'ng is taSibg ou 4o,ok at ' it again= Study it . , Green ' '' • I will go to 'Thayer and check I . the timesheet's . Ifnew the ' road ` s ' ' right . In all ' honesty ; can only tell whether Fair this , that sir ' other . Makie : ' ' .You know how I feel, at =got to have my , saysi:Mo ey is ' 'i: n your pocked and ire, still owe you X700 .. 00 . Green Wei l 4 if it wi5 . , he ' l p . you aria MakS . ' Y o , . it ' s about(, OOO , I figure � � roughly + ' re ' t If this ' is off , your chest , _. there is one ' mistake we '' have ii 'de In billing to the ' tune Of 4685 , 00 plus percenta e _G ' :r Marie t Sure . ', ejtpentes are legitimate but where they,,, are applied einbbudgef budgeting wtiethOr ah engineering or 'Spec iai studies eipense .o " : gt H. + I • • I 4 f - 1 ,•• ♦ + . . t ' y I . iI I , 1 4) 3 7 os - -= I - y August 259 1969 ADJO*JRNED MEEfiI,�TG about ® � � that we ' re talking � pi.n�xed ) Looks like about $109000 . 00 000 . 00 will buy in running M . : : , ( �' plain what $10 s eleit ns down be very P °� s down the toad.s -you should understand it and Iz�� ld elevate ion understand it ° een: ' " I understand differentmm that ' s where the pro lem or preparations Gr 000 ° ineering fees were about 180 Maki° : ' of said your specificationss all the little details that go into making of plans s sPe which it is9 and , we ' re grateful for 1t ' a successful water dis000c00 ? m=to does ° butm ® 60% of thatoo$109 in a hurry , it really Green : I know it ' s hard , it runs up really ,' v .� . Maki iMo _;, that :: ,fast 0 expense s that engineering firms have =so Green : ' Moeir overhead ad is easily over because we deal with �people �ollat ° their overhead is easily over 100 © a fellow drinks coffee for five minu sfert��r 200 one per cent . Example ' s fees = ofantastic ® ro a y ( reference made to attorney, exactly what your talking ® o n pretty clear what I charge Maki° s I send euastmuch as youdfolksidolb�ut it s p e to you9 what charge in I charge so I don 't know what else I can says it ' s for , You can look it over®not any earthshaking � the : driver ' s seams . affair about . this00but hope you will look it over carefully . 1011 look it over again with respect to what. I ' ve heard tonight . 1 Green : . ' o . Of course , hindsight is always better than foresig ht9 � he , should have been put together and wish attic had. been question t when the invoice was sent . Know P rt M akies And you expect professional servsd= mdonet expect to question . j: Greens Appreciates the statement just m ade eo h sisals knew the cost of the wells knew things Maki.e : Knew � the cost of g P y � yourrsehedule but basically and that there would be an overrun by y the well-and preliminary * 60% of the engineering contractm=not :-counting p:a beoause . I . .�ow the meetings 9 I can understand 25% or 30% or about: ' you ow th lay out ° the time and the interest = on :.yob money something y in there . Didn ' t want to put that in there . . . Green : That ' s not o part of your overhead . . So what I ' m saying.° this is ! Makie : Right9 that ' s P goes up to this extent , Pt in a position ' reasonable but when it g � you ' ve where I have to ask you ° . have you . made a mistake !: ;S.o_ . fen youp . . t , ..- .. , .:. me there. snot been a x,2. 0 , 000 mistake , ' . _ 5_ . _ a on A nced gentlemen ?Coti :may otter questions s g { Wilbur : I have none * -e y,,. . Cortright : Wells . Don has gotten it oft his chest and as far as I'm concern° o _ but I do know this : There was . a , onside 3 �;mo i I ' m not an engineer , . .. • able work done laying out this water district . I those fellows after day . Now whether they were there 35 y there day did this -wanks : Thayer .:can . tell that they . ., . Thayer n or I don 't knows but I do -' .worth m- � $ 540004, l you how much he did==whether it was $10:9000 „20 . worwhrt$ It took worth o maybe he gave us a discount and it was wanted professional services .9 siderable amountdservice� I. I think we got professional will { Greens ' Appreci€ t.e that . Cortr t = back a and recheck in my own mind . ( To Green ) You said that you_. . this go back and recheck its and I appreciate this . You may you desire - or however . but I do : feel • t _ : we : �. directly with Don if y . should go ahead. and pay Standard Engineering the $ 740000 . if there is no double billing . ( Green will check - . this ) . o pay them , Makies ; We don ' t have any option . We have to will check this with Mr * Martins Green : ' and get wouldn ' t put n that way .know that he approved this before it , and get ' his . comments on its fight because he was sent out . I will correspnd with S 'ervisor CO is your authorized representative . E ht s I do have confidence in our engieers s contractor and . . all . other- Cor g good job all the way around ,; F ' people involved and was a 6 not workiin e _ getting sulphur . Mr . Green Discussion followed about chlorinat /a�hegchlorinatoro ± he company which is supplying , k will contact t P at 9s25 P . M . . . _ . . ii Wilbur moved to adiourn this Denting at . . mittd � Secopded by Dorn . 5 ayes ° r pectFulri' _ '; Dorothy oberts r . . 0 l