HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA Minutes 2004-12-20 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
MONDAY, DECEMBER 20, 2004
7:00 P.M.
PRESENT: Kirk Sigel, Chairperson; Harry Ellsworth, Board Member; Jim Niefer,
Board Member; Dick Matthews, Board Member; Andy Frost, Director of
Building/Zoning; Randy Marcus, Attorney for the Town; Michael Smith, Environmental
Planner.
ABSENT: None
EXCUSED: Ron Krantz, Board Member
OTHERS: John Parks, 201 Morrison Hall, Cornell; George Conneman, 197
Christopher Lane; Robert Lama, 501 S, Meadow St; Andrew Dixon, 310 W. State St;
Maggie Marks, Cornell; Joseph Salino, 630 Elmira Rd; Scott Trelease, 630 Elmira Rd;
Ed Melkam, 2241 Glenwood Rd, Vestal; Peter Trowbridge, 1345 Mecklenburg Rd; Dave
Auble, 111 King Rd W.; Jagat P. Sharma, 312 E. Seneca St; Annette Marchesseault, 1345
Mecklenburg Rd; Christian Auble, 227 S. Geneva St; Chuck Light, 205 Westview Lane;
Tony Ingraham, 368 Stone Quarry Rd; Doug Fain, 133 King Rd W.; Patricia Fain, 133
King Rd W.; Marty Nichols, 610 Coddington Rd; Mary Lou Carlucci, 123 King Rd W.;
Margaret McCasland, 272 Hayts Rd; Christianne Dean.
APPEAL of Joseph and Jeanne Salino, Owner; Robert Lama,Agent, requesting a
variance from the Code of the Town of Ithaca Article XIX, Section 270-144 to be
permitted to open a retail truck accessory store, at 630 Elmira Road, Town of Ithaca
Tax Parcel No. 33.-3-3, Light Industrial Zone. Variances from Sections 270-146 and
270-154 are also requested to allow outdoor storage and display. Said property and
existing building are nonconforming.
Chairperson Sigel—Is a representative from the applicant here?
Mr. Frost—Mr. Lama is here.
Chairperson Sigel—Could you please state your name and address?
Mr. Lama- Yes, my name is Robert Lama, my business address is 501 South Meadow St.
Chairperson Sigel—And if you could give us a brief overview of what you're asking for.
Mr. Lama- Sure, I would be happy to. This building, owned by Joe and his mother, has
been in the family for a long time. It was originally occupied by the family as Salino
electric motors, they sold motor parts and motors and serviced electric motors in the
building. After the business closed shortly thereafter, we were asked to help the Salino
family occupy or find tenants for the building. Certainly they wanted to keep the
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property in the family. We were successful at one point of bringing in a craft store, Joe
did quite a bit of renovation for the building. Unfortunately, the craft store came in on
the heels of Michael's and another large craft store coming into town. And they closed
their doors. The building since that time has been vacant, we've been marketing the
building pretty heavily to find a tenant. It's in a light industrial zone, and we don't have a
lot of light industrial tenants or users for a building that's laid out such as this. It doesn't
have high ceilings or a loading dock, and the span that is available is about 3700 square
feet. To compete with what's available in the Axiohm building of about 8500 square feet
and a few other places, it just doesn't lend itself as an interesting location for
manufacturers or light manufacturers. We received a call form a company called
Southern Tier CapWorld, and they are again a family owned business, they have two
other locations, the biggest in Binghamton. They sell truck accessories, running boards,
toolboxes and things of that nature, that they have a small showroom for and then a
service area in the back to install these accessories. We are requesting that this board
consider allowing this use in this building. We see it as similar to what this building was
used for when it was Salino motors. A couple of things have happened during this
negotiation period, is the building has been cleaned up, there were some large items in
the back of the building that were somewhat of an eyesore that were removed, as a
contingent to this tenant being interested in occupying this property. We do have both
the owner of the building here, we do have the prospective tenant here. They certainly
can answer more specific questions about their business and their intended use of the
building, but as far as we put in our package, the small area in the front of the building
would be used as a showroom and office space, and the balance of the 3700 square feet
would be used to service and install these appliances to these vehicles. We asked the
tenant about traffic, because that's always a concern, especially on 13 where you have a
higher speed limit and it's not a very easy building to enter and leave. And on a normal
retail day, they will have about 22 visits to the buildings. So we didn't see it as a load on
the traffic or causing any kinds of issues with entry or egress to the building. The item,
and we've had some discussion with neighbors of the property and I think they've had
some concern about the potential of putting displays, in particular, what's called a cap
rack on display, it's a rack that has two sections side by side and they stack about four of
these caps, and these are caps that go on the back of pickup trucks, and they're new caps
and they display them as part of their marketing, so we also ask that they be allowed to
display these caps, and we've listed on a sketch where we'd like to have those cap racks
displayed. There will also be some utility trailers because it's part of their business, they
do sell small utility trailers and they would be displayed as well.
Chairperson Sigel—What, these are trailers that have enclosed space.
Mr. Lama- I believe they are all open bay trailers, and they can be wheeled to the back of
the building or the front of the building, similar to what you'll see at Lowe's or at Home
Depot or Wicke's that they sell.
Mr. Frost—For the board's information, the house in the front is not part of the proposal?
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Mr. Lama-No, the house will remain as a single family dwelling. And pretty much
everything else will remain the same.
Chairperson Sigel—The house is on the same lot?
Mr. Lama- It's on the same lot, it's in the front of the building.
Mr. Frost—I have had a call from your neighbors to the south, the volunteer firemen's
association, and, if I understood them, they said there's like a mobile home in the back
with someone living in it.
Mr. Lama- I'm not aware of a mobile home or an RV?
Mr. Frost—Some kind of a trailer with someone living in it.
Mr. Salino - There's just a camping trailer back there, there's no one living in it.
Mr. Frost—Joe, do you just want to identify yourself?
Mr. Salino - Sure, Joseph Salino, I'm the owner of the building at 630 Elmira Road.
Mr. Frost—As well as the camping trailer, there are a few other things back there they
found unsightly they were talking to you about.
Mr. Salino - There were some coolers and an old truck body, and this past week we got
two dumpsters down, and they are being removed.
Mr. Matthews —In the immediate area of this building, about a quarter mile, there's a
brewery...
Mr. Ellsworth—Ithaca Beer.
Mr. Matthews —And if you go down the road farther there's a farmstand and another
farm stand, a stereo or something there. And then across the street on the east side,
there's an antique, or whatever you want to call it. And this business that was here before
it was a commercial business, and the corridor is a commercial corridor.
Mr. Lama- The light industrial zoning is fairly restrictive. Some of the buildings don't
lend themselves to be occupied by light industry. It's a matter of ceiling height.
Mr. Matthews —It's been retail all along.
Mr. Lama- There was a use variance on this building once before.
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Mr. Matthews —It's a commercial enterprise and it's been a commercial enterprise since
it's been built. My concern is there was a letter in here about a future town park that's
going to be built or constructed in that area, is that correct?
Mr. Smith—Behind the building, off of 7 mile drive, the Saponi park is located there.
It's currently farm land.
Mr. Matthews —That's my concern. If somebody is going to enjoy the viewshed of being
in the park, looking at the back of an industrial building is not my idea of a Sunday
afternoon in the park. What provisions are being made by the owner to hide that?
Mr. Lama- It's a combination of the owner's concern and the prospective tenant's
concern that they wanted the back of that building cleaned up and improved. There's no
residential fence back there, and I believe there's a drop in topography behind the
building, and I'm not sure if it drops down to that land that's being considered for a park.
Mr. Smith—It's right across the stream that's back there, it's the back portion of where
the park would be.
Mr. Lama- In view of what's happening in that parkland, the building would be there. If
there are some ideas as to what could be done to improve the sightlines of the building,
I'm sure the Salino family would take it under consideration.
Mr. Matthews —That's my concern, I don't have any others. I'm sure the owner could do
something about that.
Mr. Frost—I'll point out as a matter of history, in the 1970's the zoning board then made
an interpretation that said you could have retail businesses in the light industrial zone and
some of the businesses came along there. In the 1990's the town re-did a zoning
ordinance to say that you can only have light industrial in a light industrial zone, so there
is a time frame if a business goes, you lose any rights for any kind of grandfathering a
non-conformity. But the area has been developed for retail for a number of years.
Mr. Matthews —In fact, there are no industrial there.
Mr. Frost—Pretty much, that's true. We did have 1 or 2, they're no longer in business
anymore.
Mr. Matthews —So it's all commercial now.
Mr. Frost—pretty much. There is a small machine shop that sits more towards Ithaca.
Mr. Matthews —But the Salino family is not creating something new, they are not
invading something that isn't already there.
Mr. Frost—That's correct.
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
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APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Ellsworth—The new part is outdoor storage versus what used to be there. Ithaca
Beer is already out of control with outdoor storage in the front yard.
Mr. Frost—That should go away as soon as they put some finishing touches on their
addition in the back.
Mr. Ellsworth—That's been a long time.
Chairperson Sigel—That's a time-limited allowance.
Mr. Ellsworth—I don't know how you look at this versus Eddydale outdoor storage.
Mr. Lama- I had Mr. Trelease bring a picture of the caprack that he has at his
Binghamton store. [He shows picture to the board]
Mr. Niefer—One of the write-ups mentions 5 cap racks. Is that correct that you are
contemplating 5 cap racks or one cap rack for 5 caps?
Mr. Lama- One caprack would be on display, and then 5 would be behind the building
just storing the caps.
Mr. Ellsworth—They'd be looking at it from the park.
Mr. Lama- I don't know, but I assume if you can see the back of the building from the
park, you can see the cap racks.
Mr. Ellsworth—And you're also talking about storing trailers outside?
Mr. Lama- Displaying trailers, right.
Mr. Ellsworth—As far as I'm concerned there needs to be some limit on these things so it
doesn't get out of control. Some limit on number of caps and trailers stored outside.
Mr. Matthews —Can we specify a barrier?
Chairperson Sigel—I certainly share Harry's concern about outside storage. It's different
from previous uses. We could specify a limit if we wanted to allow some outside display
or screening if things were going to be stored in the back.
Mr. Ellsworth—We've got to limit the number of vehicles. He could have a line of
vehicles waiting to get caps put on.
Mr. Matthews —You mentioned Eddydale, and they do have things out in front too.
Mr. Ellsworth—I don't know if we want this to continue up and down this road.
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APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Lama- I don't think there would be any concern as to being specific as to where and
how many. I think we tried to give some parameter in our sketch stating the number of
cap racks and where they would go. If there are some guidelines developed here, I'm
sure it's something that would be something you could do?
[proposed tenant, Mr. Trelease, nods agreement.]
Chairperson Sigel—My concern would be it appears for this business to operate, they
appear to need a substantial amount of outside storage if not display, and I find that to be
in conflict, fundamentally, with the zoning. Light industrial does not allow any outside
display or storage at all, and even the other commercial zones don't allow any other
outside display or storage for any type of business. For me, it seems somewhat
incompatible. You're talking about many racks and trailers, all of that is outside display
or storage. It's a pretty exposed lot. At least at this time of year, you can see the side as
you approach from the north, and you'd be able to see the back from the new park, and
you can see the south side pretty well, and of course the front is all open. Wherever you
put these racks, they're going to be visible.
Mr. Lama- Today, you'll see some substantial improvement in the site. It's also a matter
of the tenant wanting the site maintained and cleaned up. As far as the cap racks, they
may be beautiful some people and they may be not to other people. It's a component of
his business to market his product in an attractive fashion, so they look clean and visible
to some extent.
Chairperson Sigel—Obviously it's in the applicant's best interest to present his product in
a positive way, but it is a substantial display. These are large objects by definition.
Mr. Frost—Has some kind of screening been considered?
Mr. Ellsworth—Mike, the planning board didn't...?
Mr. Smith—This did not have to go before the planning board.
Mr. Matthews —Kirk, you mentioned displays being outside the zoning parameters. How
far back on that road does that restriction go? Does it reach all the way back to
McDonald's?
Chairperson Sigel—Well, as soon as you pass the old railroad tracks, you're in the city.
Mr. Frost [at the zoning map] —This is the light industrial zone in question. McDonalds,
which is in the city is down here, so you have a stretch of land that is residential. It's not
a big stretch of land. And the light industrial is pretty much, it does go somewhat back in
this area here from the road...
Mr. Matthews —So how far does that requirement go back?
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
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APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Frost—Well, this brown-orange area is the light industrial area. Along 7-mile drive,
it appears to go almost to where the collegeview mobilehome park is, along 7-mile drive.
Mr. Matthews —Does it go back to where route 13 splits from Floral Ave.?
Mr. Frost—Just actually to that line there.
Chairperson Sigel—I think approximately, yes. Ithaca Beer is near the northern end.
Even if you could argue that because of the nature of all the businesses in the area it
should be a normal retail commercial zone, even there this kind of business would not
have outside display allowed.
Mr. Lama- Another consideration is because of the restrictive zoning, because of the
style of the building, it is hard to find an occupant for.
Chairperson Sigel—I appreciate that. This board has always, to my knowledge, granted
variances to allow retail there. In essence, has treated that as a normal commercial zone.
But you're asking with all the outside storage and display to go beyond what would be
allowed in any of the town's commercial zones. If you only needed to store a couple of
these things, we could probably come up with a plan that was acceptable to the board
with screening and such, but I get the impression for the applicant to have a successful
business, they need to display these caps, so that people know what they do.
Mr. Ellsworth—I'd like to see what he has to say...
Chairperson Sigel—Could you please come to the microphone. Thanks. Start of with
your name and address please?
Mr. Trelease- My name is Scott Trelease, I live at 316 Jones Rd, Vestal.
Mr. Ellsworth—You have a place in Vestal or is that just where you live?
Mr. Trelease-No, I have a place in Endwell and a place in Binghamton and also a place
in Oneonta.
Mr. Ellsworth—What's the nature of this outdoor storage? Is it to display different kinds
of caps or is it to keep enough so that when you're putting them on you got a supply right
there.
Mr. Trelease-I like to have enough caps to attract people's attention when they come in.
Mr. Ellsworth—To show them.
Mr. Trelease- To show them. But the nature of the business today with the nature of the
automobile business, I would need to store three to four thousand of them to have the
right model cap for the right year truck and the right paint color, which is feasibly and
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
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APPROVED MINUTES
economically impossible. What I like to do is just have enough so people can look at the
model, and I know which ones are the most popular ones.
Mr. Ellsworth—There's different styles, not just colors.
Chairperson Sigel—So you're custom ordering pretty much everything for the customer.
Mr. Trelease- I would say in caps 95% of the caps are custom-ordered. To keep them
out of the weather and to keep them new looking I anticipate having 5 or 6 caps in the
building in a rack, but I would like to have a rack out near the road so people can see, not
a whole line or them, but to be able to store 3 or 4 of them out by the road.
Mr. Matthews —As this picture indicates?
Mr. Trelease- Yes, that's my store in Endiwell which is actually a very small... I've been
through this before because all of my stores are on a state highway and you need to be 30
feet back or someone from the department of transportation will tell me have to move
them back. The racks are temporary structures, I do not put them in the ground. They
can be moved. If there were an issue of not being able to see when you pull out of the
driveway, they can be moved back 3 or 4 feet. I try to keep 2 or 3 of them on there,
because the worst thing in my business is wind and hail. If you get a wind storm or a hail
storm, you obviously don't want them to blow away. Most of the caps I'm going to be
storing 5 racks on the side, are for racks that are sold coming in and going out, so they are
stored outside.
Mr. Ellsworth—How many racks do you think you're going to put on in a week there?
Mr. Trelease- I would hope between 8 and 10.
Chairperson Sigel—A day or a week?
Mr. Trelease- A week. Both of the companies I deal with will deliver directly to the
store. One of them delivers with a pick up truck and a trailer and the other delivers with
an 18 wheeler. And that's the only time I would have an 18 wheeler in the store is one
time a week for 20 minutes to a half an hour, to unload them and put them in the racks.
It's in my best interest to get rid of them as soon as possible and onto the customer's
trucks. Not only to get paid, but to prevent damage and everything else.
Mr. Matthews —Could we put a provision in there, no more than a certain number of caps
could be stored outside at any one time?
Mr. Ellsworth—And trailers.
Chairperson Sigel—We could, certainly.
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
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APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Trelease- I could work with that, because I keep my stock down enough that we
know what's coming in.
Mr. Matthews —numbers, what numbers?
Mr. Trelease- The largest store in Binghamton, the most caps I've had at one time—
Mr. Ellsworth—outside—
Mr. Trelease- Outside—would probably be 30 tops. But that's my largest store.
Mr. Ellsworth—How many caps high are these racks?
Mr. Trelease- 3.
Mr. Ellsworth—Which is about what height?
Mr. Trelease- They're usually the top rack, the bottom of the top rack is 6 feet of the
ground, so a human being can pull it off the rack, and pull it down. Anything higher than
that and it becomes a dangerous situation for myself or my employees to bring it down.
The cap would be above that 6 feet. The highest truck caps would be 3 feet off the
ground.
Mr. Ellsworth—Similar to this? [shows photo]
Mr. Trelease- Yes.
Mr. Matthews —I don't think Ithacans are any different from people in Vestal. What
would be a reasonable number that you could live with storing around the location—
Mr. Ellsworth—Outside—
Mr. Matthews —Outside, taking into account that Ithacans like to see nice things?
Mr. Trelease- 15.
Mr. Ellsworth- A week's supply. You said 15 a week.
Mr. Trelease- Outside.
Mr. Ellsworth—You're going to have 3 inside, so...
Mr. Trelease- 3 to 6 inside at a time.
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
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APPROVED MINUTES
Chairperson Sigel—Do you think your business would be viable with the restriction that
you couldn't have any caps on display in the front, and you would have a screened area in
the back for working storage?
Mr. Trelease- I don't think so. If I could have something even on the side of the building
they could see, and honestly, Mr. Chairman, it would depend on my ability to put signs,
also, I have a separate variance that is probably going to be presented to this board on
January 24th in regards to a sign, so again, all that together,people would have to be able
to see my business driving by. I'm not sure what the speed limit is on that road, I think
it's 45. So obviously I have to attract people's attention without being overly flashy,
that's not my intention.
Chairperson Sigel—Don't you think with an appropriate sign out by the road that you
could make it clear that you sell truck caps.
Mr. Trelease- The sign that I designed just says Southern Tier capworld, and the reason I
did that... I didn't put anything else on it. And the reason I did that was because of the
fact and the size of the sign that people are driving by so fast. Anything else more than
that, I know personally I don't stop to read signs unless I'm looking for a place. It just
catches your eye for a half second while you're driving by.
Chairperson Sigel—You have an application in for a wall sign?
Mr. Trelease- Yes, I have an application for a wall sign. As you know, wall signs can be
quite expensive and I was given one a number of years ago, and I believe it exceeds your
square footage, but the building sits 147 feet from the edge of the road, and there is a
house out front that blocks part of it. So with all the other things, I think that's a possible
reason why the craft store didn't succeed.
Mr. Ellsworth—Well they had these other...
Mr. Trelease- Yes, but if people don't see you. The thing in retail is location, location,
location. If they don't know you're there, you're not going to succeed in the business.
Chairperson Sigel—What's the non-conformity with the sign, Andy?
Mr. Frost—He has an existing sing, which is 60 square feet. The building frontage is 40
feet, and he's allowed to have a 40 square foot wall sign.
Mr. Ellsworth—We haven't talked about trailers —
Mr. Trelease- Outdoor storage for trailers during the winter would possibly be one or
two. In my business, I don't want to have trailers during the winter. I have to move
them, I have to plow around them. As you can see at my other stores, in the pictures, we
don't have trailers there. The other issue is that if they are too close to the road, the state
comes by and throws salt all over them so then I have to paint them in the spring.
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Mr. Ellsworth—Well, what about warm weather storage of trailers?
Mr. Trelease- Trailers most of my stores have anywhere from 8-10 trailers. If I had 1 or
2 trailers out in the front of the building, it would be acceptable for me to store the rest of
them either on the side of the building or behind the building. Again, it's so my
customers know that I sell utility trailers beyond my advertising.
Chairperson Sigel—Are these flatbed trailers or enclosed?
Mr. Trelease- Yes, I don't sell enclosed trailers. I sell small utility trailers like are found
at Lowe's and Home Depot that are put up front. Obviously I don't sell the same models
as they do. And then I also sell dump trailers.
Mr. Ellsworth—These are all open, they are not the covered trailers? I'm thinking about
the height.
Mr. Trelease- No, I don't sell enclosed trailers.
Mr. Frost—Do you stack them in storage though or not?
Mr. Trelease-No, the only time we do that is in our Binghamton store we have two
forklifts —you need two forklifts to stack them up on time.
Mr. Matthews —You said the landlord is going to be putting up some kind of view
barrier?
Mr. Lama- He's not doing that as we speak, what he's doing now is maintaining the
property and removing all the unsightly items that are out behind the building and
cleaning that up. I did bring up that if, as part of the development of the park, there was
some cooperation from him do some planting, I think that's something that can certainly
be considered.
Mr. Matthews —Considered.
Mr. Trelease- At the moment, there is a lot of trees back there at the edge of the property
or in the creek bed. At this time of year, they're not conifer trees, but I would assume
that in the summer months, you couldn't see very much in there at all.
Mr. Matthews —Some of those trees look worse than the view.
Chairperson Sigel—OK, if there aren't any other questions right now, I will open the
public hearing.
Chairperson Sigel opens the public hearing at 7:40 p.m.
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Chairperson Sigel—does anyone wish to speak about this appeal? If not, we will close
the public hearing.
Chairperson Sigel closes the public hearing at 7:41 p.m.
Chairperson Sigel—Personally, I just can't be convinced of allowing the outside display
and storage when no commercial zones in the town would allow it, and certainly not the
zone that it's in. I've been comfortable allowing retail use in this location, but this is just
such a display and storage intensive application here, that I just don't think it's a good fit
for this zone.
Mr. Niefer—We have a piece of real estate here with a structure on it that at one time was
a viable rental for the owners, had a going business there, someone else tried to run a
craft shop there. There is an issue of economic hardship to the owners. They seem to
have made a reasonable effort to find an occupant for this building. This is the first
occupant that has come along since that craft shop came before us and we dealt with that.
It's a piece of rental property that they are deriving no income whatsoever from, and
certainly there are not a lot of people looking for that type, either industrial or
commercial, so there is that aspect in this situation.
Chairperson Sigel—I do appreciate that, and we have, through variance, essentially
converted it to the normal business zoning, by allowing retail. But I am not comfortable
allowing such a departure from what the Town zoning allows in the commercial districts.
Mr. Niefer—Has the scope of the parcel of land been defined that you are going to be
using or leasing? Where does the lease start as regards Route 13, does it start 50 feet
back, or right up to the back of the house? What is the scope of the proposed lease area
that includes the building?
Mr. Lama- We're assuming it's everything 30 feet back from the highway, then
excluding the perimeter of the house and of course circulation around the house and
parking for the house. Pretty much the rest of the entire parcel.
Mr. Matthews —I think what this gentleman said is a wonderful argument. He's talking
about economic hardship for the owners of the building. Bringing in another business —I
don't know how many employees it will bring in. I personally don't see if we can put a
restriction on the number of caps that are placed around, taking into account people's
view, where that would deter a great deal from the view you already have when you drive
down that road. I don't see it as the grand canyon of the East, and neither do I see putting
caps out as being tremendously ugly. I would hope that the board can make a
compromise with this gentleman who wants to put a business in there.
Chairperson Sigel—OK. Would it work for you to have a single display of caps say back
next to the building?
Mr. Ellsworth—You mean to the south side of it?
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Chairperson Sigel—I was thinking of the north side, because the building forms an "L"
and basically has a concave section there, I was wondering if you put in a rack.
Mr. Lama- In front of the extension in the back?
Chairperson Sigel—Yeah. And say to come out even with the front face of the building.
Mr. Trelease- Yes, that would be possible.
Mr. Ellsworth—Only the people leaving town would see your caps.
Chairperson Sigel—So you would see them quite well coming from the north, maybe not
quite so well coming from the south.
Mr. Lama- So, we're talking about this area right here?
Chairperson Sigel—Yes, so having the rack reasonably close to the building, within a
couple feet, and approximately flush with the front of the building.
Mr. Lama- In line with the store front?
Chairperson Sigel—Yes, rather than out by the road.
Mr. Ellsworth—That's behind the house when you're looking directly at that lot.
Mr. Trelease- Yes, when you're looking directly at that lot it would be, but coming from
the north you would be able to see them.
Chairperson Sigel—I think people who travel there regularly at all would certainly see
that you have caps there.
Mr. Trelease- Right.
Chairperson Sigel—And then, as far as any other working storage, I'd like to see screens
somehow...
Mr. Niefer—In the back.
Chairperson Sigel—In the back.
Mr. Lama- Would that be done with vegetation as well as fencing?
Chairperson Sigel—Well, if the vegetation was effective, yes, or with a wooden fence.
Mr. Frost—Like a stockade.
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Chairperson Sigel—To create an area in the back where within that you can pack things
as densely as you could.
Mr. Ellsworth—It would be your working storage for the week.
Mr. Trelease- Right. You're just talking about putting a screen just on one side, so I can
still...
Mr. Ellsworth—No, in the back, screened from the park.
Chairperson Sigel—Well, if you need to use the side... basically screened such that no
one would be able to see them from the road—
Mr. Lama- So the screening from this sightline...
Chairperson Sigel—I'm concerned about all around, from the future park...
Mr. Lama- At this angle, the building would screen everything, but if we are talking
about from this back...
Mr. Trelease- Yeah, that's something that I think can be done, I'd have to take a look at
it. I think screening the entire back of the property from the park would probably be
some kind of spruce trees would probably look better than a fence, and also lend itself
more to a park. Instead of looking at a fence, you know, looking at a row of trees...
Mr. Frost—Is the board looking for a fence then on the south side? It sounds like you are
talking about vegetation on the west side, which is most visible from the park, whenever
that is developed, and something like vegetation or something like stockade fencing on
the south side. I would suggest one of two things, and I don't know where the board is
going with this decision, I think the property owner as well as the possibly future tenant
would like to figure out what is happening, if he's going to have a business there, is one
of two things: either to adjourn the meeting for them to come back with a plan, or, if you
were to approve it, have a condition that states that a plan acceptable to the building
inspector and the planning staff be approved.
Chairperson Sigel—Well, you're coming to the next meeting for the sign anyway, right?
Mr. Trelease- Correct. I did have a potential opening date of February first, obviously
that would be pushed back.
Chairperson Sigel—I think given the amount of storage, I would like to see a revised
plan, rather than cover all the bases tonight.
Mr. Lama- Would it possible to get an approval for the retail use of the building at this
meeting, and then the storage issue be brought to the next meeting?
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Frost—Retail specifically for this?
Mr. Lama- Specifically for this.
Chairperson Sigel—That would seem reasonable.
Mr. Ellsworth—Yeah, but it's going to be contingent on these other things.
Mr. Lama- Well, if we don't come to terms on the storage, then you just don't have the
storage, and we would come up with a plan...
Chairperson Sigel—We would just give approval for this retail use without any outside
storage or display, which...
Mr. Matthews —I don't want to dissuade the entrepreneur from coming into Ithaca. I
don't want to do that. I want to do everything we can to welcome him. We don't do a lot
of welcoming to businesses in Ithaca all the time, and I think we ought to do more of that.
Chairperson Sigel—I think we can convey the feeling of the board that if certain
conditions are met, that we are interested in approving it.
Mr. Matthews —I will point out the potential entrepreneur, that the Salino family had a
viable business there years ago, and I never saw an electric motor up on the street.
People knew what they were there for.
Mr. Trelease- Right. It takes time—over a 10 or 15 year period.
Mr. Ellsworth—Who's property is that, the Vet Volunteer Firemen, to the South next
door to the South?
Mr. Lama- To the south is undeveloped here?
Mr. Niefer—At the root of this property, talking about the park, when is the starting date
of creating this park, the next three years, the next five years, the next decade?
Mr. Smith—Right now on the capital plan it's shown for around 2007 to start the
construction.
Mr. Niefer—When?
Mr. Smith—2007.
Mr. Niefer—2007?
Mr. Smith—Around there.
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Niefer—Until such time as the park is started and being developed, what's the need
of screening something that doesn't even exist? Why do we raise the issue of screening
in the back for a park area that may or may not develop?
Mr. Smith—If you did the plantings now, by the time the park is developed, they would
start to be growing up and actually screening something.
Mr. Niefer—You're talking about trees rather than a 6 foot fence?
Mr. Ellsworth—That's what the owner was talking about too.
Mr. Trelease- Personally, I think that trees would look a lot nicer and be less
maintenance than a fence...
Mr. Ellsworth—Well, is there a big problem if you open March, are you going to sell a
lot of caps in February?
Mr. Trelease- No, but obviously I have fixed costs involved. And the other thing too is I
like to open, this is my second time doing this, I find that if I open in my slowest month,
which is February, it gives me the opportunity to get up and going and...
Mr. Ellsworth—Build a business.
Mr. Trelease- So when March comes around, which is usually a very good month, things
are, all the bugs are worked out, from my end.
Chairperson Sigel—Maybe we should also touch on display of trailers as well?
Mr. Ellsworth—They're low though.
Chairperson Sigel—Would you be able to display just one trailer?
Mr. Trelease- I've found sometimes when we just have one trailer on display, they think
it's just being used. It's just there with a license plate on it. If I were to have 2 or 3
trailers displayed out front, that's something I could work with.
Mr. Ellsworth—You prefer three?
Mr. Trelease- I would prefer three. But, again, during the middle of winter, there
probably would be no trailers displayed out there, or maybe just one. This property has
no square footage inside of it where I could actually display a trailer inside if I wanted to.
Chairperson Sigel—OK, well maybe we could work something out with seasonal display
of trailers.
16
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Trelease- If you were to limit me to one double cap rack, and a few, three, trailers
out front, I think that's something I can work with.
Mr. Niefer—That L shaped area there is roughly 48 feet by maybe 60, that's a pretty fair
size area that could hold three trailers and a cap rack, which might be an acceptable
compromise to have an area outside where he could have some outside display, yet it
wouldn't be all that intrusive in the area.
Mr. Lama- He's not leasing that portion, the family is using that for their own storage.
Mr. Matthews —The gentleman is coming back at the next meeting, is that correct?
Chairperson Sigel—Yes.
Mr. Ellsworth—For a sign.
Mr. Matthews —Can we approve the retail character of the business now, and in the
approval tonight put in that pending the approval of the display storage?
Chairperson Sigel—Well, actually as Mr. Lama has said, the approval of the business
without any storage is worthless to you.
Mr. Lama- I didn't say worthless.
Chairperson Sigel—Well, to this tenant it would be worthless.
Mr. Lama- I think it would ideally be great for us if we could get some modified ability
to do this display in a fairly modest fashion, and understanding that this is a company that
keeps a very neat operation, they take a lot of pride in it. And the building really works
well for this type of use. The building almost has a rural characteristic, this is a kind of
rural atmosphere for this type of product. When you are a real estate broker, you're
flipping cards all the time trying to make a match, and every once in a while you flip two
queens or two jacks and you make a match. We feel that way with this business and this
building. It actually works well for...
Chairperson Sigel—In thinking about it more, I would actually be more comfortable
approving everything, if we do agree at the next meeting. Giving you an approval, that
by your own admission, doesn't work for you, I don't think makes sense.
Mr. Lama- Sure.
Mr. Frost—So what are you suggesting, that you actually adjourn until the January
meeting?
Chairperson Sigel—Yeah, and then you can come back with a plan, specifically where
you want to put caps, where you want to put trailers, what time of year you want to have
17
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
trailers out, and what times of year you could have them removed, and then how you are
going to screen your working inventory.
Mr. Frost—Or perhaps you could come with a scheme for some kind of screening that
may work in your favor... I mean go back, and you've now heard where the board is
going or coming from, and you can contemplate the viability of putting together a plan.
Unkown—You comfortable with that?
Mr. Trelease- I'm comfortable. To be honest with you my timeline will be, in far as
opening, would be impossible.
Mr. Ellsworth—Because that's the third Monday of January.
Mr. Trelease- It's going to be the 24 '?
Mr. Frost—Yes.
Mr. Trelease- This board only meets once a month?
Chairperson Sigel—Yes.
Mr. Matthews —Is that going to cause you a problem?
Mr. Trelease- In some instances yes, as I said January and February are my slow months,
not only do I have more time where I can work up here, where I can be away from my
other stores. It's still doable, I would really like to see if we can work something out
tonight, but if that's not possible, and then obviously the sign, if we can't work that out,
I'll have to do something else in that regards. That's just something, I'm a small business
person, I don't have, I'm not a walmart, I don't have millions of dollars. I try to use as
many things as I have... at a fixed cost.
Mr. Matthews —Can you take a pencil and paper now, I'll ask the board to consider this,
take a pencil and paper now, go outside, do a lot of scribbling and so forth, and come
back in and propose a storage and display minimum that you can live with? Can we do
that?
Mr. Frost—I guess what you are suggesting maybe is a temporary adjournment, we go on
to the next case?
Mr. Matthews —Yes, and let him go out and scribble and do everything he has to do.
Chairperson Sigel—I think actually once I see their plan, I'd like to visit the site again
and sort of look at it in more detail, rather than try and do it tonight.
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Niefer—When he comes back, he'll come back with a sign proposal too, maybe it's
there...
Chairperson Sigel—No, that's already scheduled for the next meeting.
Mr. Niefer—Some kind of mock up of a sign on paper so we can see it.
Mr. Frost—He kind of already has that, we just didn't have the time to get it published
for tonight's meeting. The other alternative you have, if you don't take the adjournment.
Harry's been the most silent I guess on this case, it's really hard to predict if this case
would go in your favor or not.
Mr. Ellsworth—I don't have a problem with this case, I started it because I was talking
about outdoor storage and limits of it, and that seems to be where we are.
Mr. Frost—Well, you either try to follow through or adjourn, I can't help you on that one.
Mr. Lama- Ideally, for his time frame, and we try to work this for his benefit so he can
get the store started, if we could get a determination tonight, that would certainly be a
benefit for this whole transaction.
Chairperson Sigel—Well, if we make a motion tonight, I would tend to make it, If I were
making the motion, make it almost stricter, especially on the screening,just make,
without seeing an actually plan, I would need to say something like cannot see any,
cannot see the working storage at all from any angle, without seeing a specific plan, I
mean if you're comfortable with that, maybe we could. Whereas if you come back with a
plan that for some reason, you feel you can't screen it from a certain direction and you
make an argument that that is OK, you might get approval for that.
Mr. Trelease- I think it would be best if we could sit down for maybe ten minutes and at
least think about it.
Mr. Frost—So it is possible to adjourn this case, go on to the next, which isn't a big case,
I know our third case, we are going to hear from a lot of people. So perhaps, it's up to
the chair.
Chairperson Sigel—OK, we could adjourn until the end of the next case if you want.
Mr. Lama- OK.
Mr. Trelease- Thank you very much.
Mr. Niefer—Do you want to make a motion?
Chairperson Sigel—So, I'll move to adjourn the Salino case until after the next case, the
Cornell University case is finished for tonight. Second?
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Ellsworth—I'll second.
Chairperson Sigel—Favor?
ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2004- 066: Joseph and Jeanne Salino, Owner; Robert
Lama, Agent, 630 Elmira Road, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 33.-3-3, Light
Industrial Zone.
MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Harry Ellsworth.
RESOLVED that this Board adjourns the appeal of Joseph and Jeanne Salino,
Owner; Robert Lama, Agent, until the appeal of Cornell University is finished.
The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows:
AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Niefer, Matthews
NAYS: NONE
The MOTION was declared to be carried unanimously.
Mr. Matthews —I appreciate it.
APPEAL of Cornell University, Owner; Margaret Markes, Agent, requesting
variances from the Code of the Town of Ithaca Chapter 225, Sprinkler Systems to
be permitted to construct a raptor barn without said system on Game Farm Road,
Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 64.4-2, Planned Development Zone#9.
Chairperson Sigel—Hi. Please start with your name and address.
Margaret Marks - Hi. My name is Margaret Marks from Cornell University, the Cornell
Center for Animal Resources and Education.
Chairperson Sigel—And you are asking for either an interpretation or a variance, if that
doesn't go your way. You may begin by explaining that aspect of the application and
explaining why you believe why you shouldn't be subject to the sprinkler law.
Ms. Marks —Okay. This is a pole barn that's being setup to house raptors, birds of prey
that are injured as part of the raptor program at Cornell. It's a 38x110 foot pole barn with
open aviaries. The aviaries are open to ambient conditions and there is just a small office
and restroom area in the center,just for an ancillary use for the building. We did not
think originally that this fell under the law because it is a barn and basically housing
animals so we didn't proceed that way. So that is basically why we are asking that we
not be required to put the sprinklers in as far as the law goes.
Chairperson Sigel—Okay. Andy, can you...?
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Frost—Before we made the final decision we did have some discussion with our
Town Attorney and it was kind of felt that this was a school use and because it was a
school use it fell under the sprinkler ordinance.
Chairperson Sigel—Okay.
Mr. Matthews —It was a true use, you said?
Mr. Frost—School. Educational.
Chairperson Sigel—I have to say that I am not familiar with the sprinkler law.
Mr. Frost—The sprinkler law basically requires sprinklers in all new buildings in the
Town of Ithaca except for one and two family residences. The State Building Code
actually does not apply to a legitimate farm use, a barn as an example. You will need a
building permit to comply with building code or put sprinklers in under our town law if
this was barn with say just with livestock in it.
Mr. Matthews —So this is a barn?
Mr. Frost—The distinction that Mr. Barney made and there was some dialog between
counsel for Cornell and our Town Attorney at least with me in between. I don't know,
Shirley, did you actually talk to John on this one or not, but the feeling was that it was a
school use.
Mr. Matthews —If somebody has a chicken farm, do they have to have sprinklers in it?
Mr. Frost—If it is a run by a university, I might suggest that it is a school use.
Mr. Matthews —If I put up a chicken barn, do I have to put a sprinkler system in it?
Mr. Frost—If you were a farmer farming raising chickens, no.
Mr. Matthews —So I'm going to ask the question. If I don't have to have sprinklers in
my chicken barn, why does Cornell have to have sprinklers in a raptor barn?
Mr. Marcus —If a use is an educational use it falls under the category that would require
sprinklers.
Mr. Matthews —Because it has students in it and such?
Mr. Marcus —That is the understanding that we have, although there is not supposed to
be anybody there on a fulltime basis. There is a component of the use that ties into the
university's ownership and operation of the property,just as is the case for more or less
anything else that they would own build or operate. There have been a number of
improvements made by Cornell on Cornell property that the question has come up
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
previously as to whether it was an educational use and the university has argued in favor
of those improvements being categorized as educational uses because it has worked to
their advantage in other circumstances and the Town has wanted to go along with that.
so there are a number of issues and I can't speak to them specifically, because you know I
don't sit here every night, but it is my understanding that to call this something other than
an educational use would run contrary to other decisions the Town has previously made
about other improvements that Cornell has done over the years.
Chairperson Sigel—And the way the law is written,just being an educational use by
definition means that it has to be sprinklered even if this barn didn't have any office
space in it at all.
Mr. Frost—If the position was that it was a farm type use, then I wouldn't want to have
my office entertain a building permit. We do have an application. So if you concluded
that this didn't need a sprinkler system, then we are not going to issue a building permit
for the property either if it's going to be considered a barn. It would be a liability, so to
speak, for the Town to give a building permit exemption from a sprinkler system.
Mr. Matthews —We are kind of in a hair splitting operation here.
Mr. Frost—Personally, I don't have any strong feelings either way, but if you are going
to waive the sprinkler requirement, then I am going to request that you also make it clear
that we are not going to issue any building permits for the property. This is a local law
only sprinkler requirement. I want to make that clear.
Mr. Matthews —Repeat that for me. I'm kind of slow on the pick ups sometimes.
Mr. Frost—If the board were to conclude that a sprinkler system is not required because
this was an agricultural use, i.e., barn, that does not fall under the Town sprinkler law,
then my office should not be issuing a building permit for any kind of building code
reviews for the construction of the barn either.
Mr. Matthews —So they won't get to building then if...
Mr. Frost—They may build it, but they're not going to have it with a permit from the
Town of Ithaca.
Mr. Ellsworth—He's not going to be inspecting it.
Mr. Frost—We are not going to issue them a building permit or a certificate of
occupancy, which we wouldn't necessarily do for a barn that you put your chickens in.
Mr. Matthews —So if that is not issued, then where do the birds roost? They don't have a
building?
22
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Ellsworth—He's not saying they can't build it, he's saying he's just not going to be
involved.
Mr. Frost—I represent the Town in a liability the Town would take on by issuing the
permit.
Chairperson Sigel—I think the point that Andy is making is that you can...I mean if you
are just a private farm operator, you can build a barn without a building permit. Is that
right?
Mr. Frost—Actually we take a permit for zoning purposes only and when we issue a
permit we make it very clear we are not authorizing or reviewing or inspecting or
certifying the building according to State building codes.
Chairperson Sigel—So they could build it, but they would be on their own.
Mr. Frost—That's only, again, if you chose to exempt this...
Mr. Matthews —They would be on their own? Is that what you are saying?
Chairperson Sigel—Yeah. They wouldn't get a certificate of occupancy.
Mr. Matthews —How would that hurt the birds?
Ms. Marks —I'm not sure.
Chairperson Sigel—I don't know. That could have consequences for them.
Mr. Matthews —Pardon?
Chairperson Sigel—I don't know if that would have any consequences for them to...
Mr. Matthews —I'm being a little facetious.
Mr. Marcus —Dick,just to clarify, by categorizing the improvement as an educational use
it doesn't eliminate their opportunity to proceed. It just places the board's decision into a
different section of the law. In other words, if the board at the first instance decides that
this is an educational use, the next step would be to determine, as Cornell has requested,
whether the board is willing to grant a variance in this particular case for this particular
building from the sprinkler requirement.
Mr. Frost—That's an important point. It seems like you are asking for the interpretation,
Shirley, I don't know if you want to pop in here, but there is maybe three ways the board
could go. One, to say that this is not an educational use and therefore a sprinkler system
is not required. The board can determine that this is an educational use, but they don't
23
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
need to put the sprinkler system in or they can say its an educational use and they need to
put a sprinkler system in. do you understand that?
Mr. Matthews —So Cornell is ready to say that this is for educational use, right? Cornell
is not one that skirts the law. I know that.
Ms. Marks —This isn't a classroom. That's what we are trying...
Mr. Matthews —I understand that, but you are not taking care of birds of prey just
because they are not fed. You are taking them there for use for maybe educating our
future scientist.
John Parks, Cornell University— Students are involved with the project.
Mr. Matthews —So its an educational use. We're not beating around the bush, right?
Mr. Frost—If that's the boards feeling. I don't know if you want to move now from what
it would appear to be a variance now from the law for an educational use such as the
raptor barn.
Chairperson Sigel—Yeah. I agree with Dick.
Mr. Matthews —Thank you.
Chairperson Sigel—I don't...from...I don't see a compelling reason to deviate from our
Town opinion from Andy's and John's opinion on educational use. So please go ahead
and give your reasons why you think it should be exempted.
Ms. Marks —Because it is open to ambient conditions where the animals will be housed,
if the sprinkler system goes off accidentally, which happens especially in the freezing
weather, the birds would get drenched in cold water and they couldn't get away from it.
also, in order to put in a sprinkler system it would have to be a dry system, which we
could do if we had the water pressure, but we don't at that site. there is also another way
of doing it with glycol, but we couldn't do that with the birds there any way. The water
service to the site is not substantial enough to support a sprinkler system and getting it
there would have to come from either Ellis Hollow Road, I believe, or over by the farm
services on 366 and the cost of doing that would be more than our project is.
Mr. Matthews —There is no water in the buildings next to it?
Ms. Marks —There is water there, but the pressure of it isn't substantial enough to
support a sprinkler system.
Chairperson Sigel—Is the office space going to be heated?
Ms. Marks —Yes.
24
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Chairperson Sigel—And you are going to have a bathroom there so there is going to be
some water service.
Ms. Marks —Yes. There is water service to the building.
Mr. Frost—Can you guess the maximum number of occupants you may have at any
given time?
Mr. Parks —There could be 20 to 25 students there for demonstration periodically.
Typically I would say 10 to 15.
Mr. Frost—In the outdoor area or would that take place in the enclosed area?
Male voice—That would be outside of the building. The office space is just a small place
for food preparation and storing records and things like that. there is no demonstration
or...
Mr. Frost—Maybe Maggie could just show them...
Ms. Marks —(not audible)
Mr. Frost—So the roof construction, is that going to be metal or wood?
Ms. Marks —The roof is metal.
Chairperson Sigel—So how many people would be in the office area? I guess you have
an office, a procedures room, a bathroom.
Mr. Parks —On a daily basis, usually 2 or 3 for a period of maybe an hour and a half.
Mr. Matthews —Is the technology available just to have the sprinkler system in the office
area?
Chairperson Sigel—That's what I was going to ask, actually.
Mr. Frost—Are there any walls in that area or is it just one large open space?
Ms. Marks —It is broken up into an entry hallway, a procedure room and a...(not
audible).
Mr. Frost—And the entry hallway has a door on one side and the other?
Ms. Marks —Yes.
Mr. Frost—So there are two exits out.
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Ms. Marks —Yes, to the exterior...
Chairperson Sigel—So there is nothing in front of that. that exits right into the outside.
Would it be feasible to install a system just into the office area?
Ms. Marks —I don't think we have the pressure to activate a sprinkler system. I was told
there wasn't enough to do a sprinkler system.
Mr. Frost—I hate to go out on a limb here, I mean there is one room with two exits on the
ground floor with the doors directly to the outside is probably minimal. I'd be more than
curious as to what kind of smoke detection or early warning device you might have. I
know we have discussed this, but...
Ms. Marks —We don't have any now, but...
Mr. Frost—Nothing proposed.
Ms. Marks —Right. I can look in to see what we can and would that be just the office
area then?
Mr. Frost—I'm personally thinking that the greatest risk to life safety would be in the
office area. Albeit it would be perhaps a minimal risk given the size of the space, but it
would provide some early warning say if someone was taking a nap in there or
something.
Chairperson Sigel—Just so if the fire started in another part of the office.
Mr. Matthews —There is no possibility of having a sprinkler system because you say the
water pressure is not high enough?
Ms. Marks —Right.
Mr. Matthews —Okay. With all due respect, I want them to get out. It would be nice if
there was a warning to get out of here the place is on fire. But I think also, maybe it is
not my business to be concerned about, but it is my business to be concerned about if a
fireman has to go up there I would like to have it out before they get there.
Chairperson Sigel—I tend to agree with Andy that maybe just some kind of a simple fire
detector there. If someone was in the office and a fire was started in the procedures room
or something, you would know a little bit quicker. As Andy pointed out, it is not a
difficult egress. I assume that a simple integrated smoke and fire detector system would
not be too expensive.
Mr. Frost—What kind of value do the birds have?
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Parks —Well the birds themselves have no real monetary value. They are basically
birds that have been injured and are no longer releasable so they are sort of a salvage
operation for this project. So replacing them really is not a matter of finances as just
opportunity of identifying rehabilitators and veterinarians and things like that. So they
are not purchased.
Mr. Frost- ...(not audible)...the better way to go is something supervised or connected to
Barton Hall. I mean that is costly, too, but the earliest to respond, I mean it is also
providing a benefit to the responders to get to the building sooner than later.
Mr. Matthews —Are fire extinguishers required in the Town of Ithaca?
Mr. Frost—That actually would be triggered by the building code. I will point out, I
think it was in 1995, about 500 people died in fires holding a fire extinguisher. Within
the business there is a lot of debate as to whether we really want to have people
attempting to fight a fire or just to get the heck out of the building. I'm not a strong
believer in fire extinguishers. It would be helpful, but there is always a risk there.
Chairperson Sigel—I'm personally inclined to give an exemption if there is some kind of
an alarm system installed.
Mr. Ellsworth—I agree.
Mr. Frost—Is there a way to run an alarm to some other closer building that is already
connected?
Ms. Marks —It's not on the Cornell phone system out there, I don't believe. I can check
in to see what it is going to take. I'm guessing that it would have to go by a phone line.
Mr. Frost—Yeah. I suppose. You could always come back to the board and say hey we
can't do this.
Mr. Parks —The other buildings in the complex, which house birds have the infrastructure
for such an alarm system, but for whatever reason, I'm not privy to, was never activated
and has never been used for any of those buildings. I don't know what the complication
was frankly. I know we are occupying a building that will be adjacent to this building. It
has that system in it, but...
Ms. Marks —There is a system that was put in quite a while ago, but its never been
connected.
Chairperson Sigel—Is it working at a local level or is it not working at all?
Ms. Marks —Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Parks —I don't think it works to do anything related to fire alarm.
27
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Ms. Marks —Or there is a reason why it didn't get connected and I don't know what that
reason is.
Mr. Matthews —I'm not very good at authoring motions so I will pass that.
Chairperson Sigel—I will...do we need to do a SEQR with this? At this point we will
open the public hearing for this application. Anyone wish to speak? If not we will close
the public hearing. Mike, do we need to make a SEQR motion?
Mr. Smith—I think we have in the past.
Mr. Frost—I might note though, that they will probably end up putting in fire
extinguishers. That's typical for any Cornell building.
Chairperson Sigel—I will move to make a negative determination of environmental
significance in the appeal of Cornell University for the reasons stated in the
environmental assessment form prepared by Town staff dated December 9th 2004.
Mr. Niefer—Second.
Chairperson Sigel—All in favor?
Board—Aye.
ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2004- 067 : ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT :
Cornell University, Owner; Margaret Markes, Agent, Game Farm Road,
Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 64.-1-2, Planned Development Zone #9
MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Jim Niefer.
RESOLVED that this Board makes a negative determination of environmental
significance in the appeal of Cornell University, Owner; Margaret Markes, Agent,
requesting variances from the Code of the Town of Ithaca Chapter 225, Sprinkler
Systems to be permitted to construct a raptor barn without said system, based
upon the Environmental Assessment Form prepared by Town staff dated
December 9, 2004.
The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows:
AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Niefer, Matthews
NAYS: None
The MOTION was declared to be carried unanimously.
28
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Marcus —I think it will be appropriate to make two different motions. One, in
response to Cornell's initial request regarding the interpretation and then the second with
regard to the variance from the requirement.
Chairperson Sigel—In the appeal of Cornell University, I will move to make the
determination that the applicant's building is subject to the sprinkler law as an
educational use. Second?
Mr. Niefer—Second.
Chairperson Sigel—All in favor?
Board—Aye.
ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2004- 068: Cornell University, Owner; Margaret
Markes, Agent, Game Farm Road, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 64.-1-2,
Planned Development Zone #9
MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Jim Niefer.
RESOLVED that this Board determines that the applicant's building is subject to
the Town of Ithaca Sprinkler Laws as it is an educational use.
The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows:
AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Niefer, Matthews
NAYS: NONE
The MOTION was declared to be carried unanimously.
Chairperson Sigel—Okay and I will move to grant the appeal of Cornell University,
requesting a variance from Town Code Chapter 225 Sprinkler Systems, to be permitted to
construct a raptor barn without a sprinkler system, Town Tax Parcel 64.-1-2,planned
development zone 49 with the finding...first a condition that an integrated fire and smoke
detection system be installed that is connected to fire and safety at Cornell.
Mr. Frost—Supervised or otherwise connected.
Chairperson Sigel—Supervised or otherwise connected to Barton Hall.
Mr. Niefer—That's kind of vague. Do you want the whole building covered with a fire
smoke detection or just the area that is the office?
29
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Chairperson Sigel—Just the office and heated area. Thank you. And with the finding
that the requirements for a sprinkler law variance have been satisfied. Second?
Mr. Ellsworth—I'll second it.
Chairperson Sigel—All in favor?
Board—Aye.
ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2004- 069: Cornell University, Owner; Margaret
Markes, Agent, Game Farm Road, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 64.-1-2,
Planned Development Zone #9
MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Harry Ellsworth.
RESOLVED that this Board grants the appeal of Cornell University, Owner;
Margaret Markes, Agent, requesting variances from the Code of the Town of
Ithaca Chapter 225, Sprinkler Systems to be permitted to construct a raptor barn
without said system on Game Farm Road, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 64.-1-
2, Planned Development Zone #9.
CONDITIONS: An integrated fire and smoke detection system be installed in
the heated area of the barn that is supervised or otherwise connected to
Barton Hall.
FINDINGS: The requirements for a sprinkler law variance have been
satisfied.
The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows:
AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Niefer
NAYS: NONE
ABSENT: Matthews
The MOTION was declared to be carried unanimously.
APPEAL of Joseph and Jeanne Salino, Owner; Robert Lama, Agent, requesting a
variance from the Code of the Town of Ithaca Article XIX, Section 270-144 to be
permitted to open a retail truck accessory store, at 630 Elmira Road, Town of Ithaca
Tax Parcel No. 33.-3-3, Light Industrial Zone. Variances from Sections 270-146 and
270-154 are also requested to allow outdoor storage and display. Said property and
existing building are nonconforming.
Chairperson Sigel—Okay. We will reopen the appeal of Joseph and Jeanne Salino.
30
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Lama provided a sketch to the board and gave a brief description of it(not audible).
Chairperson Sigel—Just let me know if you guys...if there is anything you don't
understand. So all display would be taking place within that concave area formed by the
building.
Mr. Lama—So you see the one cap rack and then the three trailers.
Chairperson Sigel—And the trailers would be...would they all be behind the cap rack?
Mr. Lama—Behind the cap rack kind of in that little...
Mr. Ellsworth—Cul-de-sac.
Chairperson Sigel—That looks reasonable to me. So then there would be no storage on
the side, the sort of southwest side.
Mr. Niefer—How many cap racks would be in the back of the building?
Mr. Lama—Four.
Mr. Niefer—A cap rack would constitute a rack where four could be stacked one on top
of the other.
Mr. Lama—Each rack is 6 feet tall and then with a cap on top of that.
Chairperson Sigel—So it is three per rack.
Male voice—(not audible)
Chairperson Sigel—Okay. Seem good? Okay, I will move to make a negative
determination of environmental significance in the appeal of Joseph and Jeanne Salino
for the reasons stated in the environmental assessment form prepared by Town staff dated
December 15th, 2004. Second?
Mr. Niefer—Second.
Chairperson Sigel—All in favor?
Board—Aye.
ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2004- 070: ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT : Joseph
and Jeanne Salino, Owner; Robert Lama, Agent, 630 Elmira Road, Town of
Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 33.-3-3, Light Industrial Zone.
31
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Jim Niefer.
RESOLVED that this Board makes a negative determination of environmental
significance in the appeal of Joseph and Jeanne Salino, Owner; Robert Lama,
Agent, requesting a variance from the Code of the Town of Ithaca Article XIX,
Section 270-144 to be permitted to open a retail truck accessory store, based
upon the Environmental Assessment Form prepared by Town staff dated
December 15, 2004.
The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows:
AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Niefer, Matthews
NAYS: None
The MOTION was declared to be carried unanimously.
Chairperson Sigel—And I will move to grant the appeal of Joseph and Jeanne Salino
requesting a variance from Town of Ithaca Article 19, Section 270-144 to be permitted to
open a retail truck accessory store at 630 Elmira Road, Tax Parcel 33.-3-3. light industrial
zone and also grant variances from Section 270-146 and 270-154 to allow outdoor
storage and display with the following conditions: that the outside storage of caps and
trailers be as indicated on the applicant's site plan submitted tonight where there would
be no more than six caps on display at any one time, no more than three trailers on
display at anyone time at the location indicated on their plan. What about the seasonality
of trailer display? I mean are there winter months when you would definitely not have
them or maybe only one?
Mr. Salino—Approximately December 1 sf through March 15 '.
Chairperson Sigel—With a further condition that no trailers be on display December lst
through March 15 '.
Mr. Ellsworth—Outdoor display.
Chairperson Sigel—Yeah. No outdoor display of trailers. With the further condition that
all outside storage of stock be kept in the rear of the building and that that stock be
screened by an 8 foot stockade style fence and that the rear of the building be screened
with suitable vegetation and if that is not effective that that also be screened with an 8
foot stockade style fence. With the finding that the requirements for a use variance have
been satisfied by the applicant. Second?
Mr. Niefer—I'll second it.
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Chairperson Sigel—All in favor?
Board—Aye.
Mr. Lama—Thank you very much.
ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2004- 071: Joseph and Jeanne Salino, Owner; Robert
Lama, Agent, 630 Elmira Road, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 33.-3-3, Light
Industrial Zone.
MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Jim Niefer.
RESOLVED that this Board grants the appeal Joseph and Jeanne Salino,
Owner; Robert Lama, Agent, requesting a variance from the Code of the Town of
Ithaca Article XIX, Section 270-144 to be permitted to open a retail truck
accessory store, at 630 Elmira Road, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 33.-3-3,
Light Industrial Zone, and also grant variances from Sections 270-146 and 270-
154 to allow outdoor storage and display.
FINDINGS: The requirements for a use variance have been satisfied by the
applicant.
CONDITIONS-
1.
ONDITIONS:1. Outside display of caps and trailers be as indicated on the applicant's
site plan submitted tonight where there would be no more than 6 caps
on display at any one time, no more than 3 trailers on display at any one
time, on the locations indicated on their plan.
2. No trailers be on outdoor display from December 1St through March 15tH
3. All outside storage of stock be kept to the rear of the building and that
stock be screened on the sides by an eight foot stockade style fence
and the rear of the property be screened with suitable vegetation, and if
that's not effective, that that also be screened with an eight foot
stockade style fence.
The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows:
AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Niefer, Matthews
NAYS: NONE
The MOTION was declared to be carried unanimously.
33
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
APPEAL of David Auble, Owner; Jay Bramhandkar, Appellant; Peter Trowbridge,
Agent, requesting a Special Approval under the requirements of Article VII, Section
34 of the Town of Ithaca Zoning Ordinance (Pre April 1, 2004 Ordinance applies.),
to be permitted to construct a 58-room hotel and associated parking on the Danby
Road south of King Road West, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcels No. 37.4-17.1, Business
District C.
Mr. Ellsworth—Before we proceed, I am going to abstain on this appeal because I have a
contract with Mr. Auble for some mechanical design on the adjacent piece of property.
Chairperson Sigel—Okay. Is that related to this project or a different project?
Mr. Ellsworth—Well, it is adjacent to this. The apartments that are adjacent to this
property.
Chairperson Sigel—Someone ready to begin? Just begin with your name and address.
Mr. Bramhandkar—Good evening. My name is Jay Bramhandkar residing at 2303 North
Triphammer Road in Ithaca. I'm the principle developer of the proposed Country Inn
and Suites. To give you a little background, I have been living in Ithaca for the past 20
years. In the hotel business, having owned and operated both downtown Ithaca as well as
on the Triphammer Road intersection of Route 13. For the past several years, there has a
most definite need substantiated by several independent studies conducted by both the
Chamber of Commerce, the Convention and Visitors Bureau as well as our own in house
information that we get from our guests that stay at the hotels. Our need for a living
space slightly bigger than the conventional box of room. The average stay of visitors
coming to Ithaca for the past 10 years has increased from one to a little over three nights.
Many of them coming here either to Cornell or Ithaca College.
There is not an existing or proposed or under plan property besides this, which
caters to this need of providing people a little more than a conventional hotel room. In
catering to this need, we came up with this idea of putting in a property. We analyzed all
possible franchises that were available outside including the cookie cutter, boxed looking
hotels like extended stay suites of America or the comfort suites. In order to maintain the
neighborhood character, we went with the award winning product called Country Inn and
Suites. It is the franchise owned by (not audible) travel agents. They are the largest
travel agents in the world. For the last six years in a row, JD Powers and associates has
awarded the design of Country Inn and Suites an outstanding design award for the
beautiful colonial architecture that it represents. We will be copying that or replicating
that in the proposed site.
Other than that, we went over the mechanics and the numbers that are required by
a franchise to make it a viable proposition. We went to several hearing with the Planning
Board, took their suggestions, modified our package and taking it with their respectful
comments and suggestions and brought it down from an original 69 suite property to a
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
modest 58 rooms, the bare minimum that we need to make our economic sense out of the
whole project.
In keeping to the demand that is coming into Ithaca in terms of teams coming in
or bus tours coming in to the Fingerlakes area, most operators these days specify a
property other than 50 rooms. They do not entertain as a possible destination property
because coaches have become bigger. They have minimum of 60 people on the bus and
so they need that kind of a property to cater to the tourists that come into the area.
With all these factors we came up with the a product, which I think gels with a
neighborhood. It is a winning prototype and is definitely going to be a magnet for future
development of that particular neighborhood.
Peter Trowbridge, Trowbridge & Wolf Landscape Architects - There are several other
team members here tonight, Annette Marchesseault, who is project manager from our
office. Jagat Sharma, who is the architect for this project. Andrew Dixon, who provided
both a demand and assisted in the financial study, is here this evening and will make a
presentation about the financial issues related to the project. TG Miller's, who is a local
sort of civil environmental engineer, has worked with us doing all the sewer, water and
hydrologic studies. And SRF Associates, traffic consultant, has worked with us and DOT
on traffic.
What I would like to do is spend three or four minutes going over the site plan,
making sure that there is a clear understanding of the proposal at hand. Before doing
that, I wanted to just give you some background data. The maximum site coverage in this
zone for a building is 30%. This building occupies 19% of the overall site coverage. The
building doesn't require any area variances. It is within the height and all the required
setbacks. There is a 50 foot buffer on three sides because of zone requirements. I'll
show this a little bit in terms of vegetation study, but because there's residential zones in
part on West King Road, along Holly Creek Development, and there is a small area
adjacent to the Holly Creek Development that there is a 50 foot buffer on all of those
sides.
In addition to that, open space requirement is 30% and there is a 52% open space
allowance on the site. Again, that is partly due to 50 foot buffers on three sides of the
project. Just to give you an overview of the project, this is an area photograph with the
buildings enhanced. This is the proposed Country Inn, Holly Creek residential
development, this is College Circle, La Tourelle and this is as you know...(not
audible)...I'm trying to give you a sense of what the overall context and size of the
buildings in the area and what those buildings look like. This is a focused in area. The
dark area in the center, the building is Country Inn and Suites. Sam Peters is across the
street, Big Al's gas station and store. There is an undercoating business at the comer...to
the south there is a parcel set aside for future neighborhood development and we were
asked to show the square footage that would be allowable for that parcel at such time that
would get developed.
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
In addition, this is West King Road, East King Road, Danby Road, there are
limitations in access to the site. There will be one driveway only that will provide access
to the hotel. That driveway and curb cut will also be shared with any future retail
development on Danby Road and this has been discussed and plans have been submitted
to New York State DOT for their approval. There is a egress area only on to West King
Road. There is no access, so that would be used for fire and emergency and vehicles
moving out of the site.
Relative to your considerations tonight, as you can see this is a proposed
vegetation plan. As I said there is a 50 foot buffer including the landscape on two sides
of the building, which subsequently makes the open space much greater than might be if
there was the same consistent zone on several different sides of the building. As Jay said,
we started last March with the Planning Board. We really wanted to listen to them and
hear their input. There were three different sketch plan reviews. We have gone through,
successfully,preliminary site plan approval. We have a negative declaration for
significant impacts from the Planning Board and their recommendation tonight to this
board for special permit.
We have provided many other drawings for site plan approval, but I think these
are the ones in particular give you a good overview of the project and focus on issues
relevant to your deliberations tonight, I hope. So we would certainly be happy to answer
any questions,provide clarification to this project or any sort of decisions that have been
previously made by the Planning Board.
Chairperson Sigel—Okay. Thank you. First off I would just like to raise a question, I
think for Randy. In the Town's new code there is discussion of the effective date being
April I". Then there is a provision for applications received before April I"then being
able to be continued and treated under the old code. The only date that I could find on
this application for special approval is November 301'of this year and that concerned me
that the request and the section of the Code that deals with transition provisions spells out
sort of each step separately site, site plan review, special approval and so on. So on the
face of it at least it wouldn't seem that this would qualify for treatment under the old
code.
Mr. Marcus —Good question, Kirk. The issue is addressed at the Town Board's meeting
last Monday night. The new code provides for basically a 9 month period during which
the open application be brought to conclusion. The initial application was made as of
March of last year. I believe the date was actually March 2n . So it was clearly initiated
within the time frame required under that provision that you are referring to in the new
code. The nine months would have started running at that point and therefore would have
ended as of roughly now. I don't have precise dates in my head. The applicant applied
for an extension of that nine month period for an additional four month period and that
was considered by the Town Board last week and the Town Board approved that
extension so that the applicant is at this point required to complete their review process
rather that results in a granting of approval or disapproval by the end date now is April
36
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
2nd. In other words the original nine months plus four months, which would be 13
months from the March 2n application date. I don't believe the actual minutes of last
week's Town Board meeting have been approved. There is a draft copy available for
review and that goes into some greater detail of the Town Board's consideration of this
extension request. That was approved and it is clearly the case that the applicant does
have at this point until April 2 ndto complete their review process under the old zoning.
Mr. Matthews —Them being here tonight is within the Town's timeframes?
Mr. Marcus —Yes. Their timeframe overall whether it has to do with the Planning Board
approvals, which at this point have already been granted in preliminary sense or this
board's approval or if there were any other approval involved, they have until April 2nd
2005 to complete that process. The Planning Board at this point has preliminary
approval. The final approval is made subject to or conditioned upon this board's grant of
the special approval.
Mr. Matthews —Kirk, correct me if I'm wrong and I've often been wrong, the nut of the
whole thing here or the meat of the nut as it were, is these folks are seeking approval to
build a facility that is larger than the zoning ordinance and is larger in the number of
rooms that they have than the zoning ordinance denotes. Am I getting close to the nut
tree here?
Chairperson Sigel—I believe that the only issue is the number of rooms.
Mr. Marcus —That's right.
Chairperson Sigel—The zoning ordinance previous to April I" did not stipulate a
maximum size square footage-wise at least for a hotel or motel.
Mr. Matthews —So the size that they are proposing is within the zoning ordinance.
Chairperson Sigel—They meet all other requirements.
Mr. Matthews —So the kernel of the talk tonight is the number of rooms in this facility.
Mr. Marcus —Exactly.
Mr. Smith—They are not asking for a variance for the number of rooms. It is a special
approval for it.
Chairperson Sigel—Right. It is a special approval, which is...
Mr. Matthews —I'm on board. I wanted to know what I'm fighting about. Always good
to know.
37
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
Mr. Marcus —Just to be a shade more specific, under the old code a hotel use was
allowed in this location for a hotel that had up to 30 rooms. For any hotel with more than
30 rooms and there is no other specificity in the law concerning the number of rooms, its
just in excess of 30, would require this board's approval.
Mr. Niefer—I think your office received a letter dated December 171'raising the question
regarding which zoning law applied. Is that issue clear and unequivocal as to the old one
applies?
Mr. Marcus —Yes, it is.
Mr. Niefer—While the memorandum seems to indicate that the new zoning ordinance is
applicable.
Mr. Marcus —Thanks for bringing that up, Jim. I wanted to somewhere along the way go
through this with the board. That memorandum in and of itself is almost entirely
accurate. There are a couple of statements in it that I would have phrased somewhat
differently to make the points, but on the whole that memorandum which was generated
by a legal intern in August of 2000 at the City of Ithaca generally states correct
conclusions of law. those conclusions are that if a municipality changes its zoning law,
the property owner is bound by whatever those changes are that the municipality wants to
impost on that piece of property.
Mr. Matthews —Under the new zoning ordinance.
Mr. Marcus —The property owner is bound by a new zoning ordinance to whatever extent
the municipality wants to impose that new zoning ordinance. That point, and I could
elaborate on that point if you like, but that point is really not the point at issue here. The
Town in adopting the new zoning code as of the effective date of last April, did not
require that the new code be applied to pending applications at that time. in other words,
the Town itself created an exception to the coverage of the new code within the new code
itself and specified that anything that had already entered the pipeline would be treated
under the old code. The Town...
Mr. Matthews —The Town grandfathered in other words.
Mr. Marcus —It would be grandfathered to use a more generic term. The Town could
have very well simply said as of April 1, 2004 the new code applies. Period. End of
story. And every property owner that might be affected by the terms of the new code
would have to live by the letter of the new code without exception, but that isn't the case
here. The Town specifically provided that there would be an exception in the adoption of
a new code. So I don't dispute the basic points of that memo. It is very clear New York
law and there is plenty of additional cases and there are plenty of cases that have even
been decided since the date of the memo that support that point that if a municipality
changes its zoning law it can apply the terms of that new zoning law to any property
owner from the effective date of that new zoning law forward, but by the same token a
38
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
town or city or village could accept in any matter it wishes to the applicability of that new
zoning code as did the Town of Ithaca in this case.
Mr. Matthews —So the exception holds rule.
Mr. Marcus —The exception holds to in this case.
Mr. Matthews —The only issue then is 30 rooms versus what these folks want to do.
Mr. Marcus —That's right.
Mr. Niefer—Height is not an issue here then?
Chairperson Sigel—No. There is no height variance. And the criteria, it is important to
keep in mind the criteria that we have to apply in deciding whether to approve it or not.
It's not the variance criteria. It is special approval criteria and I can read that if you like.
I can read the criteria that you are supposed to use. The board in granting special
approval shall determine that the health, safety, morals and general welfare of the
community in harmony with the general purpose of this ordinance shall be promoted,
except in the case of educational uses where that's presumed to exist, the premises are
reasonably adapted to the proposed use and again there is an exception for educational
uses, and that it will fill a neighborhood or community need. The proposed use and
location and design of any structure shall be consistent with the character of the district in
which it is located. The proposed use shall not be detrimental to the general amenity or
neighborhood character in amount sufficient to devalue neighboring property or seriously
inconvenience neighbor inhabitants. Proposed access and egress for all structures and
uses shall be safely designed. The general affect of the proposal upon the community as
a whole including traffic, water, sewer, and such is not detrimental to the health, safety
and welfare of the community. That lot area access,parking and loading facility are
sufficient for the use. That natural surface water drainage ways are not adversely
affected.
Mr. Matthews —Is this the comprehensive plan that you are reading?
Chairperson Sigel—These are the requirements for special approval found in the old
zoning ordinance.
Mr. Matthews —I read the Planning Board's memo that they sent over. I don't know how
much I am supposed to fall in line with their conclusions, but personally I will draw my
own conclusions. I have a tendency to be that way. Item b, where they talk about
making recommendation and one of their items was item b and it said the existing and
probable future character of the neighborhood will not be adversely affected as a result of
the proposed project. I don't agree them. I absolutely do not agree with them. Less than
I am going to say 300 yards from this hotel is the Montessori School complex. Traffic
certainly will go by that Montessori School complex more. I suspect that the school
complex may even get bigger with time, it's being successful. There has been a
39
TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
tremendous amount of individual homes built eastward of this hotel and for the Planning
Board to even suggest that an increase in traffic is not going to adversely affect the
families who have built their homes there is ludicrous. They haven't provided for the
increase traffic on the road going towards Cornell and they are all going to go down
Aurora Street. They haven't made provisions for the safety of the drivers on those roads
that bypass Ithaca going down East King Road, going down Burns Road and going on
Route 79 and Pine Tree Road. So for the Planning Board to say that it won't adversely
affect the neighborhood is ridiculous. There are still houses being built.
Mr. Matthews —50 cars through that corridor in the morning and afternoon or at football
games and so forth, is a tremendous number of changes. Based on at least item b, the
Planning Board's recommendation has just lost some water as far as I'm concerned. The
other issue that I have with this is that these folks are asking for, if my math is correct,
approximately 100%wedge beyond the zoning rule, which is 30 rooms. That is a big
wedge. That's a big wedge.
Chairperson Sigel—Well, but I think you do need to keep in mind that it's not...it's just
that they can have 30 rooms by right and that they need special...it's not that the law is
you can only have 30 and they are asking for more.
Mr. Matthews —I understand that.
Chairperson Sigel—The law is that you can have 30 by right and you have to get special
approval for more and I think the reasoning behind that is that the Town Board just wants
this board to review the application and determine whether the increased amount is
appropriate. So it's not the same as seeking to go twice as high as you are allowed in
height in such where it is a variance that you are seeking.
Mr. Matthews —But Kirk, if the rule is 30, they are asking to go to 58. There is not a lot
of difference in going from 70 to 140 feet. You are still increasing something that the
village inhabitants don't want by zoning ordinance.
Chairperson Sigel—But I think the special approval mechanism is not...the assumption
there is not that the increase is not wanted. It's just that it should be reviewed. Maybe
Randy could...is there something you could elaborate on.
Attorney Marcus —I don't disagree with your interpretation, Kirk. The fact that there is
nearly a doubling of the number is a statement of fact. Mathematically it is entirely
accurate going from 30 to 58 is nearly a doubling, but the criteria that the board is
obligated to apply don't relate to any mathematical criteria as might be the case if you
were looking at an area variance. In other words, the area variance criteria specifically
describe the mathematical component. The fact that you would be obligated as a board to
limit your grant of an area variance to the minimum variance necessary and those things
are measured in feet or acreage and those sort of dimensions. Here, your criteria don't
involve any specific measurement. It simply involves the concept and the overall impact,
as you were just describing, to whatever the board determines there is an impact or there
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isn't. I'm not trying to debate that an additional 28 rooms would have more of an impact
than an additional two rooms and I think that that is clearly the case. All I'm trying to
point out, as I think Kirk was, that the criteria that you are using are not determined by
the number or the percentage by which you are in excessive of the 30 room limit. The
criteria are focusing on those results of the proposal taken as a whole.
Mr. Matthews —I understand the jist of what you are saying and I'm what I am doing is
probably dramatizing what's being requested and I wouldn't hold back in dramatizing if
the case warranted it and I think the case warrants it in this case. I understand what you
are saying.
Chairperson Sigel—I'm not trying to dissuade you from your core opinion, but I'm just
trying to stress that...the way I think of it is if something requires an area variance I
presume,personally, that the use is unwanted by the town. Someone has exceeded a
setback or a height or something so the structure or what the applicant wants to do is
unwanted and we have to decide whether to allow that. With a special approval, the use
is not necessarily unwanted. It's just to be reviewed by this board and the board is to
determine if it is appropriate or not.
Mr. Matthews —I'm missing something. If the zoning ordinance says 30...
Chairperson Sigel—The zoning ordinance says you must get special approval beyond 30.
Mr. Matthews —But the zoning ordinance...okay. I'll go along with that, but somebody
put that 30 number in there for a reason.
Chairperson Sigel — Somebody decided that 30 or less is definitely okay and more than
30 needs approval, is maybe an okay.
Mr. Matthews —Because it may not be okay.
Chairperson Sigel—That's true.
Mr. Matthews —We agree.
Mr. Frost — Sometimes they put thresholds on these things not so much because
something is also less desirable as much as administratively it provides more efficiency.
Mr. Matthews —The government is not running this hotel.
Mr. Frost—That's irrelevant in my mind.
Mr. Trowbridge—I just wanted to clarify some traffic issues because this was a...there
was quite a bit of discussion about traffic. When we looked at hotel use versus many
other uses that are absolutely allowable in the neighborhood area, for instance a
restaurant that might be allowed by right. A hotel has much, much less traffic generation
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
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than almost any of the other uses that would be allowed in the neighborhood commercial
area. So when I think our conversation occurred in the board and we talked about traffic
and got our traffic report there was a...I appreciate your concern about traffic and
directionality, but given this use versus other uses, this has a very low level of in and out
traffic and traffic use as compared to other potential retail uses that would be completely
allowable.
Chairperson Sigel—I don't want to keep sounding like an advocate for the applicant, but
it is the case that you cannot use a criteria...you can't use a particular criteria, for
instance traffic, against an applicant if that particular impact is lower than something that
is allowed by right. So for instance if they are allowed to put up a shopping center by
right and that would generate more traffic than the hotel...
Mr. Matthews —But the Planning Board addressed that in item b. The existing and
probable future character of neighborhood would not be adversely affected. If you put
cars in the road you are affecting the neighborhood.
Chairperson Sigel—But it is a commercially zoned area. You are allowed to do certain
things.
Mr. Matthews —That's right. You are telling me that I can't point out the traffic increase
when in fact the Planning Board has done that in a round about way.
Chairperson Sigel—No, you...
Mr. Matthews —So I disagree with what the Planning Board has said.
Chairperson Sigel—You can bring up traffic as an issue, but my point is just that it can't
be a reason for denial if the application...if the traffic impact of this application is less
than what would be allowed by right by another use. Is that true?
Attorney Marcus —I guess I would say it just slightly differently. I would say that if the
board were to use that as a basis it would open the board up to legal action.
Mr. Matthews —Okay. Don't use it as a basis, but remember what I said.
Chairperson Sigel—I agree that it contributes to the impact.
Mr. Matthews —Don't put it down. Just remember what I said.
Attorney Marcus —I don't know if you want to ask...I got the impression, I may be
wrong, that the applicant had other persons that were going to present other aspects of
this that you might want to gather the rest of the information before further board
discussion.
Chairperson Sigel—Yeah. That's a good idea. Thanks, Randy.
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Mr. Trowbridge — Andrew Dixon, who has provided both demand and some financial
information with the developer to present some of that information.
Andrew Dixon, 310 W State St- I prepared two sections of the packet that you received.
One section dealt with demand or desirability for the facility, which I conducted several
interviews with people in the community who tend to act as gatekeepers for use of hotel
rooms in the Tompkins County area. I also did an economic analysis, which compared
the proposed hotel at 58 rooms with the as right hotel of 30 rooms. What I found is that
30 rooms is in no way shape or form economically feasible. Not only would the
applicant be denied a franchise, but the applicant would very likely not achieve funding
for a hotel that size. I did further sensitivity analysis on it, which I did not include in the
packet, but I ran it at 38 rooms and 48 rooms and found that the economics were not
sufficient to support the development of a hotel property on the site. I think it is fully
critical to understand that as of right you can put in a carwash or a shopping center that is
10,000 square feet and that will dramatically increase the amount of traffic in the
neighborhood. I understand that there is a tremendous amount of opposition based on
traffic concerns, but the property is zoned in such a way that there will be commercial
development there one way or another. I'm really here more to answer questions than to
go through the work that I have submitted to you. If you have questions regarding the
economics, I'm happy to entertain them.
Chairperson Sigel—Any questions about...
Mr. Matthews —I'm naturally cautious about studies done by experts. I don't want to
question somebody's veracity, but came not to trust studies done by experts.
Mr. Dixon—I didn't say I was an expert.
Mr. Matthews —Okay, well, studies by professionals. I'm very cautious by this.
Chairperson Sigel—Just as an administrative matter, I will mention for the record that
Mr. Dixon was actually the former board member that sat in your seat.
Mr. Matthews —I know. He was kind enough to introduce himself before the meeting. I
can argue with a friend as well as an enemy.
Chairperson Sigel—Just to make that clear for everyone, not that I think that it has an
impact on his role here.
Mr. Dixon—In essence, to satisfy you, my background includes about 20 years in
commercial real estate, working on probably close to $2.5 billion in assets. I was born in
Ithaca. I grew up in Ithaca. I know the Town. I love the Town. I think I have a pretty
good feel for how the markets work.
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Chairperson Sigel—Any other questions? I was satisfied as far as at least the need for the
project and the viability.
Mr. Matthews —I am very concerned about the impact on the neighborhoods. And I'm
very concerned about,probably less so, because it seems that you've kept it hidden from
the Buttermilk Falls Park that people treasure. I don't see where you are impacting that
except by maybe more water going down there because of the blacktop or something like
that. Another point that you have in there is that you've reduced the parking to I think 61
or 60. I know you have a 58 room hotel so lets say 75% of that is taken up on a normal
day or normal weekend, so the 60 parking spaces are taken up by your guests. Then you
have 20 employees and I wonder where they are going to park. Are they going to park on
the street? Because the guests have taken up the parking spaces.
Mr. Dixon — That was addressed at the Planning Board level to the satisfaction of the
Planning.
Mr. Matthews —The Planning Board says that it is okay at 60, but as I said in my remarks
was I would draw my own conclusions respecting, but drawing my own conclusions.
Where are those 20 people going to park? Are they going to park along the road? And if
they are, that is certainly unacceptable.
Jagat Sharma, Architect - The 20 people that you refer to are not going to be there at the
same time. More than half of those are housekeeping staff that comes in after the guests
have left in the morning and they are gone before the guests come back in. The
employees at any given time in the evenings when the hotel, I wish it is 100% as you
mention. We go on an estimate of area statistics of about 64% average occupancy. Even
on a night when it is 100%full, at the front desk there is always one person. So we have
enough parking to take care of the guests as well as for one or two people that may be
present to run the hotel. Most of the staff comes at a time when the hotel is empty. They
are essentially the maintenance, the housekeeping. They come in the mornings.
Essentially the rooms are cleaned after 10 a.m. when the guests check out and by 3:00
p.m. they are all done and gone.
Mr. Matthews —So the bottom line is, there will be no people parking on the streets.
Mr. Sharma—No. Absolutely not. Many of times in Ithaca I have been running hotels in
this town for the last 20 years. We get a lot of groups that either come in minibuses,
vans, autobus. We have provided parking, which a bus will take up two parking spots
parked horizontally and that brings in 58 or 50 people. So we have plenty of parking
needed to run the hotel without anything spilling on the roads.
Chairperson Sigel—Was there any more to your presentation?
Mr. Trowbridge—No. (comments not audible)...In your packet there is a number of
different illustrations. We showed a hotel in Cortland that the Planning Board wanted to
see and what a hotel looked like. We modified that photograph to show what this hotel
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would look like so you have a comparison of those. I think much of the other material
related to environmental issues...(not audible)...having to clarify any other issues that
relate to those.
Mr. Smith—I was just going to mention one thing. This project is a Type I action and the
Planning Board was lead agency for the site plan and subdivision and special approval
and they made the negative determination at the November 2nd meeting. So that has been
taken care of You should have in your packet the negative declaration material in there.
Chairperson Sigel—So just to clarify that, Dick, in this type of action, what is done is a
coordinated review.
Mr. Smith—It's a Type I because it is greater than 25,000 square feet in size.
Chairperson Sigel—So the Planning Board acted on our behalf, you could say, in
determining that this is not of a significant environmental impact. I'm not saying that
means you have to agree with everything in the statement, but this board does not make a
separate determination about the environmental impact. We just vote on the special
approval.
Mr. Matthews —I understand.
Chairperson Sigel—Any other questions before we open the public hearing? No. Okay.
I would just like to take a one minute break and ask you if you could just make a couple
of copies of that for Dick and Jim and then we'll have the public hearing. I'm just having
John make a copy of the criteria. It's kind of helpful to have it. I find it useful to go
through the criteria and if you find that it doesn't meet any of the criteria it is much easier
to articulate your opposition and then that forms the basis of the motion to deny if you so
desire. You have to point to a specific criteria that you are supposed to consider.
Mr. Matthews —Thank you. I appreciate it. I understand.
Mr. Trowbridge — The applicant would like to withdraw this evening and reschedule at a
later date.
Chairperson Sigel—Okay. You would like to adjourn?
Mr. Trowbridge—Yes, an adjournment.
Chairperson Sigel—Do you plan to modify the application any?
Mr. Trowbridge—We will resubmit and be back in front of the board at a later date.
Chairperson Sigel—Okay.
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Attorney Marcus — It is up to the board as to whether you wish to grant the applicant's
request.
Mr. Frost—(comments not audible)
Attorney Marcus — They are, of course, bound by the limitation of the April 2nd deadline
at this point.
Chairperson Sigel — I was wondering how to handle that with regard to the public
hearing.
Attorney Marcus —You can, if you wish, take public comment tonight because obviously
there are people here who have responded to the legal notice of the hearing being
conducted. If you prefer to put it off, that is within the board's determination.
Chairperson Sigel—I'm happy to move to adjourn, although I think it would be
appropriate to let people speak now. They couldn't necessarily make it to a subsequent
meeting and you guys obviously would be free to stay.
Mr. Trowbridge—The reason that we want to adjourn, Kirk, is because we don't have a
full board and with Harry abstaining...
Mr. Ellsworth—It's got to be a majority.
Chairperson Sigel—You want to wait until Ron comes.
Mr. Trowbridge—Yeah.
Mr. Matthews —Would it be fair for the public to comment on something that very well
could change?
Chairperson Sigel—That's a good point. And also, it would probably also make sense to
delay maybe because Ron's not here.
Mr. Matthews —If they want to do another strategy I'm concerned that the public will be
commenting about something that is white when it is red.
Mr. Niefer—I don't think it would be fair to either side to hear the public now and not
have the absent board member miss it. We would have to go over the same ground again
for both sides to have a fair and equal chance to express their views and there has been
quite a bit of side bar discussion, which I think is material enough to some extent and this
may be a little bit premature, but we are permitted to designate a person as an alternate
zoning board member so that you would hopefully have a full five voting people. If and
when that would take place, I don't know.
Chairperson Sigel—We could look at that.
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
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Mr. Niefer — At least having four people would be better than only three with some
negative feelings expressed already.
Chairperson Sigel—That seems reasonable to me.
Attorney Marcus —I think that is entirely reasonable. I was only going to add, I'm sure
all the board members realize, but just for those members of the public here that might
not realize if this were to proceed to a point of a vote, given there are only three members
voting, it would require all three to vote the same way for a decision to be made. In other
words, a vote of two in one way and one in the other will result in no action being taken.
Chairperson Sigel—It is not a denial.
Attorney Marcus — It's not a denial, it's no action, in which case the applicant at that
point can request another hearing.
Chairperson Sigel—I want to stress what Randy said. I don't want people to think the
applicant is "getting away"with something by seeking an adjournment. If we were to
vote tonight with three voting members and let's say hypothetically it was 2-1 in favor,
that would not be sufficient to approve because you need three members. It's a five
member board, you need a majority to approve, but that would also not be a denial. To
have a denial you would have to have three members to vote in favor of denial.
Attorney Marcus —So that means the applicant could request another meeting.
Christiann Dean—And will there be a public hearing...(not audible)...
Chairperson Sigel—Yes.
Ms. Dean - Given what I went through to get here, I'd rather speak tonight and come a
second time.
Chairperson Sigel—The problem is we have a member absent tonight and we are
thinking that it would make more sense and the applicant has indicated that they are
going to resubmit their packet, meaning they could change it.
Ms. Dean—(comments not audible)
Male voice—How could they change it if what is before you...(not audible)
Chairperson Sigel—I'm sorry. We have decided that we would like our other member to
hear all the public comments so that we have all heard the same comments.
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Ms. Dean—I'd rather that the people who are here tonight hear me tonight in case I
cannot make it to the adjourned meeting. What's the difference between an adjourned
one and a second one?
Chairperson Sigel—I think it is effectively the same.
Ms. Dean—Only in one case we get to talk tonight and the other case we don't.
Mr. Frost—The point is, is you have one member who won't have the benefit of hearing
that.
Ms. Dean — Don't you take minutes? Doesn't this gentleman here take minutes so that
the board member could read the minutes?
Attorney Marcus —I think the point that the board is trying to make is that during a public
hearing it is ordinarily the case that the public has an opportunity to speak and there is an
interchange with the board. If the board members have any questions about what the
member of the public's position is, there's an opportunity to question them, to elaborate,
to expand, which isn't possible in the basis of the minutes. By the same token, if there is
a member of the public who cannot attend a subsequent meeting, that member of the
public is always welcome to submit written comments to the board in advance.
Chairperson Sigel—I'm very sorry that the adjournment has been requested and will take
place, but you can submit written comments. We do read them carefully and consider
them carefully and in many ways actually have more time to consider them than when
you speak. And I'm sorry that that is the best I can offer.
Ms. Dean—Kirk, I just spent hundreds of dollars in childcare expenses and disrupting my
family for many, many, many meetings....(not audible)...I've seen the strategy of this
applicant and it's a repeating strategy. When they don't get what they want, they
try...(not audible)...
Mr. Matthews —I think we are hearing too much right now.
Mr. Niefer—Yeah.
Mr. Matthews —I think the board...I mean I think the audience has a sense of my temper
and my tone in my conversations, but I don't believe it is fair to either party to have a
vote by a board that is partial nor have a board that hasn't heard the argument first hand.
It's just very strongly...with apologies to the public who've come here. I hope they come
back, but I think Kirk, you are absolutely right. You should allow the adjournment to
have the whole board here to hear the argument.
Male voice - ...since you are taking questions, could I ask a question or for a clarification
that in someway may assist the people who want to participate publicly and do so. That
was a concerned that was raised that the applicant, may in fact come back with a different
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DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
package and its my understanding that the package which has been approved by the
Planning Board is the package that is before this board.
Chairperson Sigel—Tonight?
Male voice - ...and then come back to this board without going back to the Planning
Board.
Chairperson Sigel—They would have to go back to the Planning Board.
Male voice—And they can't do that within their 15 months. So I would be incredibly
surprised myself if the applicant asked for an adjournment so that it would go back to the
Planning Board because in 10 or 15 months, whenever it happens, happens. So it is my
view that any concern about the package changing is a false concern. I just wanted to
make that...
Mr. Frost—I as a zoning officer would not entertain any application that would deviate
from the Planning Board. I think we have here, though, is a situation if any member of
the audience was asking for an approval from the zoning board and there was one board
absent I think justice works for everybody and to suggest that this is a strategy on the
applicant,personally, I don't see that because the board member announced last month
before this agenda was even set up that he was not going to be at this meeting. so the fact
that the board member is absent and from my years of experience it serves justice the best
to have that board member present at the hearing, not just reading the minutes. It cannot
deviate from what has already been approved from the site plan. It cannot, but it is not
the applicant that has arranged for strategy to ask for adjournment; it's the absence of a
board member at this table as well as Harry withdrawing from a vote. It's the way the
system works. It would work not only for the applicant that is here now, but it would
work for any member of the audience right now who would speak out against this.
Male voice —You voted on the two previous things... and they were voted affirmatively
on each one.
Chairperson Sigel—Okay. Are you seeking an adjournment to the next meeting?
Mr. Trowbridge—We would like to be scheduled at the next meeting.
Chairperson Sigel — Okay. I will move to adjourn this appeal to the January 24th, 2005
meeting. Second?
Mr. Niefer—Second.
ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2004- 072: David Auble, Owner; Jay Bramhandkar,
Appellant; Peter Trowbridge, Agent; Country Inn and Suites, Danby Road
south of King Road West, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcels No. 37.-1-17.1,
Business District C
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TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
DECEMBER 20, 2004
APPROVED MINUTES
MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Jim Niefer.
RESOLVED that this Board adjourns, until the January 24th 2005 meeting, the
appeal of David Auble, Owner; Jay Bramhandkar, Appellant; Peter Trowbridge,
Agent, requesting a Special Approval under the requirements of Article VI I,
Section 34 of the Town of Ithaca Zoning Ordinance (Pre April 1, 2004 Ordinance
applies.), to be permitted to construct a 58-room hotel and associated parking on
the Danby Road south of King Road West, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcels No. 37.-1-
17.1, Business District C.
The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows:
AYES: Sigel, Niefer, Matthews
NAYS: NONE
The MOTION was declared to be carried unanimously.
Mr. Frost—This will be advertised as a public hearing. So you will have an opportunity
to speak at the next meeting.
Mr. Trowbridge—Thanks very much. Appreciate it.
Inaudible chatter.
Chairperson Sigel adjourned the meeting at 9:35 p.m.
Kirk Sigel, Chairperson
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