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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA Minutes 2005-03-21 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MONDAY, MARCH 21, 2005 7:00 P.M. PRESENT: Kirk Sigel, Chairperson; Harry Ellsworth, Board Member; Jim Niefer, Board Member (7:09 p.m.); Dick Matthews, Board Member; Ron Krantz, Board Member; Andy Frost, Director of Building/Zoning; John Barney, Attorney for the Town (7:07 p.m.); Michael Smith, Environmental Planner. ABSENT: None EXCUSED: None OTHERS PRESENT: Joseph Giordano, 100 Christopher Circle; Mary Lee Noden, 102 Christopher Circle; Randi and Keith Millman, 105 Christopher Circle; Larry Sallinger, 14 Peach Tree Lane; Kevin Jacobs, 14 Peach Tree Lane; Todd Roswech and Melisa Anthony, 102 Drew Road; Paula and Charles Solat, 103 Drew Road. Chairperson Sigel opens the meeting at 7:05 p.m. APPEAL of Joseph Giordano,Appellant, requesting a special approval from the Zoning Board of Appeals under Article IX, Section 270-69 of the Town of Ithaca Code, to be permitted to conduct a home occupation real estate office at 100 Christopher Circle, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 71-2-2, Medium Density Residential Zone Chairperson Sigel—Mr. Giordano? If you could please come and you could have a seat at the table there and please just begin with your name and address for the record. Mr. Giordano - My name is Joe Giordano, I live at 100 Christopher Circle in the Town of Ithaca. Mr. Frost—I just want to say for anyone in the audience that may have an interest in this case. This is technically a permitted use, it's not like they're asking for a use variance. Our new zoning ordinance allows the use by special permit. Prior to April of 2004, home occupations, which this is, was permitted without any appearance before the zoning board. So you should just know that if you have any comments, it's not like he's asking for a use variance. Chairperson Sigel—OK, and could you just give us a brief overview of what it is you are planning to do and why you need the approval. Well, we know why you need the approval. Mr. Giordano - I would be working out of two rooms in my house. One room would by my office, and I would be using a computer, a printer, and a fax machine, and most things TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES normally used in a home office. My main, when you enter my house, there's a big long reception, it's basically a living room, that would be my reception area. It's basically a hallway—you can't get anywhere in my house without going through that room. So that would be the two rooms in the house. I've rented apartments and sold real estate in Ithaca for twenty years, and I wrote in my notes there on my application, I did work for a company that had over 500 apartments in the Salem drive area. So, I have experience working within the neighborhood business. My main reason for bringing that up is I feel my business would be miniscule compared to that... I'm also, I'm really excited about this. I haven't been able to improve my property like I wanted to the last nine years I owned it, I couldn't afford to. I own apartments myself, and my apartments get more money put into them than I put into my own house, so I'm finally going to be able to put some more money into my own house and make it more attractive, and more appealing to my customers and hopefully my neighbors. The only alterations to the property are going to be widening of the driveway. Making enough room for two cars side by side and a third car, an area for a third car to pull into off to the left. Which are on my, by the way, for the board, I have new documents that show that sign placement, my sign placement and appearance of what my sign will be and widening of the driveway—what that'll look like. A lot of this, there are a few things to be ironed out with it, but as far as where the landscaper says the driveway should be widened and... should I submit all my new documents right now? Mr. Frost—You might want to present that. Mr. Giordano - When I did my application I didn't have my logo for my company or anything like that done up. There's also a letter there from my neighbor at 130 Christopher Circle, Mrs. Nora Harquitt,just telling me that she supports me, and she's sorry that she couldn't come here. Which is nice, nice lady, her husband dies this year, and I've become kind of close to her. OK, my driveway, The front of my property, if you look at the map there by the driveway, I'm going to add a lot of landscaping so on that sketch, that's where I'm going to add some landscaping. I'm excited about this. I don't know if you guys want to hear all this, but it took me nine years to get bushes planted in front of my house, where I could afford to do them and I did that last year. So, I'm looking forward to planting some more. Anyway, I think that will be appealing, and I think the parking... It's just going to be me working there, there's not going to be agents under me. I do have a maintenance man who will come and go, so as far as employees, that's who I would expect to come and go, not expect, that's who's going to come and go. And as far as cars coming and going, I can only meet with one person at a time. So, in the business that I referred to at the beginning of this, they had 500 apartments, and I rarely saw 3 or 4 cars in the 17 years I worked for them. Maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit, during the really busy times they had a lot more traffic and stuff. But I'm going to have maybe 15 apartments versus 500 so, I don't mean to over-emphasize that, but... And I'm going to be prepared for more traffic, by taking care of the driveway. Mr. Frost—So right now you own 15 properties? 2 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Giordano - Yes. Mr. Frost—Are you maintaining 15 properties, or do you actually own 15 properties? Mr. Giordano - I own 15 units. Mr. Frost—Do you have any maintenance contracts for properties you don't own, where you would be doing property maintenance, collecting rents, and so forth? Mr. Giordano - I have one maintenance man who take care of a lot of my stuff. I'm not rich enough to have him, he's part time for me. And I have contracts with various contractors I've worked with over the last 20 years. Mr. Frost—But how many properties other than the 15 that you already own, do you have some property maintenance...? Mr. Giordano - OK, I see what you mean. Right now I don't have any. It's my goal to have a property management company that would eventually... well, my goal is to get as many units as I can. My real goal is eventually to be able to move out of my house. But I have managed properties in the past, I stopped because I was waiting until my real estate broker's license was in full, and I'm a licensed broker on my own. In the past when I had property management accounts, I've had up to half a dozen and the traffic, I wouldn't say there is a lot of traffic coming or going as a result of that. Most of my maintenance men I would call and they would go out to the property without me. They never came to see me, they just went to the property to do the work they had to do. Chairperson Sigel—So your maintenance person or anyone else is going to be based at your home besides you, related to this business? Mr. Giordano - Right. He'll come and get checks and whatever he needs to do to work with me, but, I may have... it won't be just him, I mean there will be subcontractors for various... he doesn't do everything, I have a guy who fixes furnaces for example. The maintenance man I use doesn't do that. I like to use, you know, like electricians I only use a licensed and things like that. Chairperson Sigel—So how many cars do you anticipate there being at the house simultaneously? Mr. Giordano - IL mean I would be amazed if it was more than two or three. Like I said, I can only handle one customer on my own, and maybe somebody will come pay the rent, maybe the maintenance man will have to be there at the same time, but... Chairperson Sigel—How... do you have any idea what percentage of the day you would be having a meeting with someone or what percentage would there be at least the one person, one car there. 3 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Giordano - Yeah, nine to five, with sometimes special appointment occasionally at seven, eight. That's very uncommon. I've signed real estate contracts at midnight before. But I don't intend to do it much past five in this home endeavor. My wife certainly doesn't want me doing it much past five. Chairperson Sigel—How much of the day are you meeting with people? Mr. Ellsworth—what percentage? Mr. Giordano - What percentage? Chairperson Sigel—Or how many meetings a day? Mr. Giordano - I mean usually more than three is not very common. On Saturdays... most of this I go meet people at the house, at the busy time of the year. At the slow time of the year from after the students and everyone settled in, after September until March you know. Traffic is very slow. You get into February, March, April, May and June, that's when it gets heaviest. March and April are the heaviest months. So the answer to the question is, I would think three or four a day would be the most. Chairperson Sigel—OK. And how long are those meetings, typically? Mr. Giordano - About an hour. Most of those meetings,people just meet me, and then I take them off to a property. Most of my stuff showing apartments,people just follow me usually. Mr. Matthews —I think the central; question here, at least as I'm sensing it is, this is a residential area that you are going to be in, and in your opinion, and you being a gentleman, will this business affect the residential characteristics of the neighborhood? Mr. Giordano - Well, my house is right across from the school entrance, and sometimes there's many cars and people coming and going there frequently. I'm also across from the town area where they store all kinds of things, it's a work area. There's a water tank there. I'm not saying, I just want to give the look... but the majority of the neighborhood is very residential people, it's a very close family-knit neighborhood. They have a, they get-together once a year and have a get together. So, I've always strived to be a good neighbor wherever I've lived. My family's been in the Ithaca area for over eighty years and we take great pride in what we've done for the community. My uncle built over 1/3 of Cornell University at one time. And not that that means anything more than my family's very proud of what we've done in Ithaca and we would never want to do anything, frankly I would never want to do anything to endanger the value of my own property, so that would be important. But, it's also similar to other practices in the Town of Ithaca in similar neighborhoods. We can find dentist practices, we can find all kinds of uses. So, I'm just trying to do what's been permitted in the Town of Ithaca for many many years. 4 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Krantz—How big is that sign that you? Mr. Giordano - Well, the Town says a two foot by two foot sign is what the... I actually went in there and one of the people said it could be up to six square feet but that looks way too big to me. I did a two foot by two foot mock-up,just to see how big it was, and that's plenty big enough. It's actually four square feet if it really matters to you, it might not be exactly two by two. Chairperson Sigel—I think four square feet is the... Mr. Frost—We're checking that. It was four square feet for years, Mr. Giordano - Well, four square feet is all I want, so you can write it into my appeal if you want. Mr. Frost—We may have increased it to six. The sign law permits a sign with a permit for a permitted use, so you grant the appeal and he's allowed to have a sign. We're just checking to see if we changed it to six square foot from four. Chairperson Sigel—How are you planning to finish the new driveway area, is that going to be stone or asphalt? Mr. Giordano - It'll be stone. Number two crusheron stone. But it's going to be dug down properly as... it's going to be based as if you are going to pave over it, so that eventually if I want to pave, I will be able to. Chairperson Sigel—And what is your... you have a, in the material you just gave now, you have a couple of sketches,proposed 42 and proposed 43. Mr. Giordano - Yeah, those are things I've sketched out based on phone calls with the landscaper, and I guess the main idea there is to have, once again, if you look at it, we want to widen the driveway definitely enough for two cars to be comfortable. Right now two cars don't fit in my driveway comfortable side by side. So, I want to have it so that two cars fit side by side, and then to the left, the driveway will enlarge to allow a third car, really two cars deep to be able to park there if it was necessary. So that's how it would work. You have to do it nicely, with proper curb cut in there and things like that. Mr. Niefer—The material you submitted indicates this is a two family house? Is it going to remain a two family house? Mr. Giordano - Oh yeah. Mr. Niefer—And you're going to live in one unit? 5 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Giordano - I live on a large unit that's actually on Christopher Lane, and if you look at the survey there, there's another driveway on Christopher Circle, and my apartment is there. Mr. Barney—what are the sizes of the rooms that you're going to be using for the real estate business? Mr. Giordano - My office is about 12 by 12 that I want to use, and the foyer, is the best way to speak of it is probably 12 by 18. It's a large room. Mr. Barney—Those are the only two rooms that would be committed to this use? Mr. Giordano - That's it, yeah. And my hope would be to be out of this house. I'd like to have a business that's going to be moving into an office somewhere else. Chairperson Sigel—Any other questions or comments at this point? Mr. Niefer—the only other comment that I might have is that he's indicated that his hours of operation might be between the hours of nine and seven in the evening, and also with somewhat similar situations that have come before the board, we have also specified a period of time that the permit would be issued for, so those would be my two comments would be specifying business hours and also specifying that the permit issued would be for a specific period of time, after which he would then come for extension of special permit. I may have another comment if there is some public comment on the situation but, at the moment, that's my thoughts. Chairperson Sigel—OK, are you satisfied with the proposed nine to seven as a time range? Mr. Niefer—Well, that's something for possible other input, but I do thing that there should be some time range for business hours. Chairperson Sigel—Yup. I agree. OK, at this point, we'll open the public hearing, if anyone wishes to offer any comments about this case? Chairperson Sigel opens the public hearing at 7:24 p.m. Chairperson Sigel—Please, ma'am, you can come to this microphone on the end and sit down. Could you just begin with your name and address for the record? Mrs. Noden - My name is Mary Lee Noden, and I live at 102 Christopher Circle. My house is immediately adjacent to the Giordano property and I am opposed to this variance being granted, because I wouldn't like to have a real estate office right next door to my home, for several reasons. One is as Mr. Giordano states, his home is directly across from an elementary school. There's already a lot of traffic on that road, and I believe he himself has stated that he thought the traffic there already was a hazard to the school 6 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES children and had asked to have a sign put up there for the traffic to slow down and for the limit, the speed limit sign to be placed in front of his home for the limit to be lowered. But also the room he has referred to as a foyer for his office is a rather open room which is open to his kitchen I believe. And his kitchen is open to my family room and the houses are very close there, so that his kitchen looks directly into the windows of my family room where I spend most of my day, and I end up keeping those curtains closed quite a bit of the time, and so it would really be somewhat of an invasion of my privacy, and when the Giordano's turned their garage into an apartment, they put a double set of windows into the garage on that side of the garage and so those windows now look directly into my kitchen. So I already have two more vehicles and people looking into the kitchen windows of my house and that's already added to the density of the neighborhood by my home, so I'm not really happy having more cars added to the neighborhood, and as Joe already stated, our neighborhood really is a very quiet half circle, and although the request he's making at this time is for his office to be in the home where he's living now, I would like to know if it would be possible if he were granted this permit, for him to change the location of the office to the garage apartment at some time as opposed to having it directly in his home. And I was concerned about the size of the sign and the location. I'm also concerned about the fact that if the business didn't take off right away or it didn't do well, would he be able to afford to do any landscaping at all and what the yard would look like if he wasn't able to complete any landscaping and wasn't able to complete any remodeling he did in the yard because it really wouldn't look very good there. So I do have a number of concerns being his next door neighbor and wasn't really very happy to hear about his plans to move a commercial endeavor into our neighborhood. Chairperson Sigel—OK. You had mentioned something about him possible conducting his business in what is now an apartment? Mrs. Noden - Right. Chairperson Sigel—Did you view that as either good or bad, I wasn't sure? Mrs. Noden - Well, I just wondered if that would be possible. It would be even closer to my home than where the cars would be parked, because the back door of the garage apartment is only about ten feet from the property line of my property and the door is very close to my home, but I really don't like to see the increased traffic in our neighborhood at all. I consider one of the real advantages of where I live the fact that it is so quiet, even though we're tucked between Triphammer and Warren Road, a real advantage of where we live is the fact that we're on that half circle of Christopher Circle, and it's a really nice neighborhood. Chairperson Sigel—So you would prefer that he not conduct his business in the apartment? Mrs. Noden - Yes. 7 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Chairperson Sigel—OK, I just wanted to be clear. Mrs. Noden - But the fact that his house plan is very open means that if people are in that foyer, it really means that people look right through to my family room. Chairperson Sigel—Thank you very much. Mrs. Noden - Thank you. Chairperson Sigel—Anyone else wish to speak? Sir,please? Please just begin with your name and address. Mr. Millman - My name is Keith Millman, I'm at 105 Christopher Circle, and I thought I'd come here just to voice a few concerns that I have, and just like Mary Lee I'm concerned that first of all, it's a very residential neighborhood, we don't have any businesses in our neighborhood, and the proposed business will be 20 feet away from the entrance to an elementary school and so if one to three cars a day come in that's upwards of 300,000 cars a year possibly coming in and out, and one of my concerns is there's a lot of little kids that go to the elementary school there, there's no sidewalk there's no crossing guard,people sort of go down that road, Christopher Lane, quickly as it is, especially if they're not distracted by trying to find some place with a small sign. The other thing is this is also where Middle School kids walk also. So there's a fair amount of traffic there of kids, walkers, from the elementary school and the middle school and these are at different times, so they're not going to school and coming back necessarily, so to put a business right at the mouth of one entrance to the school I think is something that needs to be considered, and I don't know if the public schools have been notified about this, or if it's an issue for them. Mr. Frost—Is that an entrance or an exit? I think I talked to your wife this morning and I thought she said an exit. Mr. Millman - Well it depends. If you're walking for busses, busses come out that way, but people will drop their kids off and pick them up there, as well as students walk in and out of that. So, there are several entrances. Mr. Barney—The main entrance to the school is off of Winthrop isn't it? That's where the school busses pull in and discharge kids? Mr. Millman - That's where they come in that's correct. This is where they come out, that's correct. Ms. Millman-Brown - You can also park... all the faculty... Mr. Barney—You'll get your chance. We can't pick it up on piecemeal, sorry. Mr. Matthews —Where is this business in relation to the school on this map that we have? 8 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Barney—You have this green map? Mr. Matthews —I have that yeah. Mr. Barney—The yellow piece I think is the subject parcel. Mr. Matthews —Oh, it's right across the street? Mr. Barney—It's right across the street. Mr. Matthews —On the right hand side, to the right of that picture, or two the north of that picture, I guess it would be. And where is the entrance to the school? Mr. Barney—Well, what I think these folks are saying is there is an entrance, or exit, I'm not sure which, but there is a driveway associated with the school that comes out right across the street from this, I think, or very close. Mr. Matthews —Right across the street from the? Mr. Barney—The subject piece, the parcel that Mr. Giordano owns. Mr. Matthews —And where do the children... the children go in there by bus, correct? Mr. Barney—Most of the traffic in and out of the school is on Winthrop drive, if you go over one, there's Winthrop drive and then there's a canopy and quite a bit of parking area and that sort of stuff. Mr. Frost—The busses enter in Winthrop. I had children go to this school, so basically they're coming in off of Winthrop. It's not signed and I understand your concern, I had kids too. Is that signed to say Exit Only, or is there no sign on the Christopher Circle side. Mr. Millman - Well, once you enter the school... You can enter that exit legally... Mr. Frost—But from the Winthrop side is it one way out that direction? I can't remember. Mr. Millman - Yes, that's correct. Mr. Matthews —And the children leaving school or coming to school would walk past this business one way or the other. Chairperson Sigel—Some children would. 9 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Matthews —I'm asking—they feed into these homes here? Is that it? Here's the school, and they feed here and here? Mr. Millman - A lot of people come down this way from the middle school. Mr. Matthews —Thank you. Mr. Millman - So that was just one thing that I wanted to raise, the safety issue. The other one is more about the quality of the place. I actually grew up on Christopher Circle, wasn't there for a while, ended up buying the house my folk's house. Where I live now is a neighborhood I knew in 1967, 68 and so on, and so I understand the continuity of the neighborhood being one that is residential. Frankly, my concern is, especially when there are comparisons to what has happened on Salem drive, one of my concerns is apartment complexes, residential houses being bought up and being turned into apartments. This may be outside this a little bit, but as it is, as Joe said, it's a little confusing because the residence right now, there's a home and an apartment—there are two driveways right now, and one house area that we're considering. And so presently, there are already three cars there often times. That may be a little unclear to me listening to the first part of this, so if there are already three cars, accommodating extra cars will create more traffic. This is at the corridor looking into the neighborhood. The house is the first thing people see coming into the neighborhood especially coming down from Warren Road. Chairperson Sigel—OK, did you have any other comments? Mr. Millman - That's it. I do want to say that the idea for an extension, a hearing for an extension after a certain period of time might, would be useful with this if the variance is approved. Chairperson Sigel—You mean time limiting? Mr. Millman - Well, as I understand,possible limiting business hours and then having to come back after a certain time. The problem is you grant this and then this thing ends up becoming much larger, it could really be very destructive. Mr. Barney—There are some limitations in the ordinance on a home occupation. He couldn't get it and then hire five brokers and have them working out of there. That would not be permitted, it's limited to two employees max, so there are—and the size and the space, that's why I was asking how many rooms were committed to that, because the size and the space that can be designated is limited. So a home occupation is a permitted use in a residential zone, but under a number of limitations that are built into the ordinance. Mr. Matthews —I think the gentleman is suggesting a trial period, is that feasible or possible or allowed? That we grant permission but have a trial period for whatever is agreeable to the board. 10 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Barney—This board has in the past on occasion had time limited approvals. I'm not sure if they were special permits or whether they were variances. They are, we have done that, or I should say, you folks have done that. I don't know we've done something on a trial period basis, but it's been done on a basis where it's usually been a fairly long period whether it's three years or something like that or even five years with the requirement that at the end of that period it has to be renewed. So the answer is yes, I think you could probably do it, but it would be unfair to do it for two months or three months or something. Chairperson Sigel—I think it has generally been use variances, where what we're granting is a more significant deviation from the code. It's possible we've done it for special approvals, but I can't recall. Mr. Matthews —So at the early part of this meeting, Mr. Frost said that a home business was permitted and all that, so it gave me the impression that there wasn't much of a variance involved here in granting this. Am I wrong? Mr. Barney—Correct. It's not a variance at all. Mr. Matthews —Pardon? Mr. Barney—It's not a variance, it's a special approval. A variance is where you're varying the terms of the law, but law does not permit the particular use or the particular configuration in some way and you're asked to vary the terms of the law that applies to that particular situation. This is what is an approved use in the sense that the statute particularly authorizes the use of a home occupation in this zone upon receiving special approval. Which means that presumptively, it's a permitted use, except that you have the right and do have several criteria to look at top see if they are met or not. If they're not met, you deny the special approval, if they are met, you grant it. Mr. Matthews —I'm going to play Colombo again, John. Mr. Barney—That's perfectly all right. Mr. Matthews —What are the items that could conceivable, or that we should consider if we are interested in turning this down or approving it? What are those items? Mr. Barney—You have about 14 considerations set forth in section 270-200 of the now Ithaca code. I don't know if you want me to read all 17 of them, but there's basically the health, safety, general welfare of the community are being promoted with this particular use. The second is the premises are reasonably adapted to the proposed use and it will fill a community need or neighborhood need. C. the proposed use, location or design shall be consistent with the character of the district in which it is located. D. The proposed use will not be detrimental to the general amenity or neighborhood character in amounts sufficient to devalue neighboring property or seriously inconvenience neighboring inhabitants. E. Operations in connection to the proposed use shall not be any more 11 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES objectionable to nearby properties by reason of noise, fumes, vibrations, illumination or other potential nuisance than the operation of any permitted use in the particular zone. F. Community infrastructure services, included but not limited to protective services, roadways, garbage collection, schools and water and sewer facilities are currently or will be at adequate capacity to accommodate the proposed use. G. The proposed use, building sign and site layout comply with all the provisions of this ordinance, and to the extent considered by the reviewing board with all other regulations and ordinances of the town, by the building code, and all other state and federal laws, rules and regulations, and with the Town's comprehensive plan. H. The proposed access and egress for all structures and uses are safely designed and the site layout provides adequate access of emergency vehicles. L The general effect of the proposed use on the community as a whole, including such items as traffic load on public streets, and load upon water and sewage systems is not detrimental to the health safety and general welfare of the community. J. The lot area,parking, and loading facilities are sufficient for the proposed use and access. Parking and loading facilities are adequately buffered to minimize visual impact. K. natural surface water drainage is adequately managed in accordance with good engineering practices and with any applicable town local law or ordinance. L. To the extent reasonably deemed relevant by the reviewing Board, the proposed use or structure complies with all the criteria applicable to site plan review set forth in this chapter. You can go look at those criteria too, but they are generally parallel this. So that gives you a little bit of a feel for what. Mr. Matthews —Thank you, John, I appreciate it. It seems to lean pretty heavily on, correct me if I'm wrong, character of the neighborhood, traffic patterns,property values, I think I picked that up out of what you were saying. Mr. Barney—Yup. Chairperson Sigel—Balancing any detriment to the neighborhood, versus the applicant's... Mr. Matthews —And it's a judgment call on the part of us board members whether or not that's going to occur. If I may make a comment... Mr. Giordano - Excuse me for a second, is it not my turn to speak? Could it just be clarified the clause he's talking about, that's mentioned in there of that 17 that means... Chairperson Sigel—That's section 270-200. Mr. Giordano - I didn't pay clear enough attention, as it refers to character of the neighborhood, so I should know... Chairperson Sigel—Did you want to read a copy of it? Mr. Giordano - Could you read it again? 12 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Barney—Sure. There's a couple of them that are in that vicinity. A is The health, safety, morals and general welfare of the community in harmony with the general purpose of this chapter, meaning the zoning ordinance, (including the specific purposes related to the zone in which the premises are located) are being promoted. C is The proposed use and the location and design of any structure will be consistent with the character of the district in which it is located. D is The proposed use will not be detrimental to the general amenity or neighborhood character in amounts sufficient to devalue neighboring property or seriously inconvenience neighboring inhabitants. Chairperson Sigel—OK, any further comments? Mr. Millman - That's it. Thank you for your time. Chairperson Sigel—Anyone else wish to speak? Please, Ma'am? Please just begin with your name and address. Ms. Millman-Brown - My name is Randi Millman-Brown. I live at 105 Christopher Circle, that's my husband Keith. And I do want to say that I think it's great that somebody have their own business, and I think it's nice idea that you want to do that, and it's nice idea that you want to do that, and it's nice to be able to work out of your own home, but I do worry about the traffic and the problems of the traffic on that street. And also I'm just sort of curious, what it we all decided on Christopher Circle to have a business in our home, and everyone had a sign out on their front lawn, would that be something that could be approved? And I think that if we think about it in those terms that would be a real detriment to the community and to the area that we live. So if we have one person that has a business and a sign, granted it's not that large, it's four square feet, I was just thinking if everyone was allowed to have a variance and have a business in their home, then where does it stop, so I'm just sort of curious about that possibility, but I think our main concern is the traffic pattern on that street, but like Joe said it's been nine years since Joe's been in the house and that house not looked very good in those nine years. He's had washers and dryers in the driveway, he's had the grass be even two feet high before someone comes and mows it. So it hasn't been kept up that well, and granted I know you did get a front door and a new storm door and things, so he is making some effort to finally make it look nice, but it has been nine years that it's looked not that great, so anyway ... Chairperson Sigel—Well, in response to your comment about other business, I mean, the Ithaca Town Board has decided by passing the zoning ordinance that a home business is an allowed use, as long as you meet certain criteria, and so yes in theory everyone on your street could open a home occupation. Ms. Millman-Brown - I mean I was just thinking about it in terms of worst case scenario, everyone decides well, I'm going to have a massage therapy place and a dance studio and an internet service business, and a web. I was just thinking about the whole... 13 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Frost—You make a very good point. The town adopted zoning in 1954, for 50 years, or until 2004 we had an ordinance that would allow a doctor's office to move in, they could have two employees. We had a pediatrician in a residential neighborhood and there was traffic coming and going all day, it was a permitted use. In theory as the chairman says, you could have everyone on the block having a business, the reality is, and it may change, but the reality is for over fifty years, the town has had zoning that has allowed home occupations and that hasn't happened. So the potential I don't think is likely but that's an interesting point. Mr. Barney—Back up until 2004, I think it was permitted as of right, it never even came before the board, you could just open up as long as they met the terms of the ordinance. Ms. Millman-Brown - I guess the problem is being where it is. One thing I was thinking for Mary Lee and her house and feeling like people are invading her space and her home is maybe if this does go through you know, maybe you could put a shade up in your kitchen so people can't look through. I mean, limit the light in his house, but maybe that would help Mary Lee for people feeling like they're looking in their home. Mr. Frost—His kitchen is not part of the proposal here, I mean I understand your point, but everyone has a kitchen and everyone has windows. Ms. Millman-Brown - I understand that, I was just making the point if that's the problem, where people are in his area where they are conducting business, and that's a privacy issue, and maybe that was just something that could be done. It was just a thought. Chairperson Sigel—OK. Thank you. OK, anyone else wish to speak? If not, we'll close the public hearing. Chairperson Sigel closes the public hearing at 7:50 p.m. Chairperson Sigel—OK, anyone have any comments, questions? Mr. Matthews —A meeting shouldn't go by without me making a comment. I have to admit that my thinking is somewhat swayed by the neighbors that came and the comments they made and look at the character of the neighborhood and the resale values of the homes around and the traffic at the school there. I can understand people who have homes and they want some privacy and they would like to have the value of their home not lessened. I guess I would hope that another place to be found, and I understand the zoning ordinance, and the alternative I have, I have two of course. One is to say no, and the other is to say a trial period. I see no other alternatives. Chairperson Sigel—Anyone else? Mr. Giordano, did you want to add any comments? Mr. Giordano - Yeah. I guess the biggest thing is to hear neighbors come up, and ?I really want to be a good neighbor. So, I've written down some things that I think would 14 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES address their comments. First of all, as far as affording to put landscaping on... I have budgeted, I have refinanced, and have money set aside to do this, I have a business plan, and have thought about this for 17 years, so LI do have funds to do the driveway and the landscaping I want to do, I've wanted to do it for a long time. And LI feel bad that IL haven't kept the place as tidy as some of the other neighbors, but I've been busy, I've been working and raising a family. And speaking of raising a family, I am pretty sure there is no one on the block more ardent about traffic control than me. I think my neighbors can attest that I had the Sheriff's put up the big box where you drive down the street and see how fast you're going, and I'm going to ask them again. Really, what you got to do is call them every time you want it put up and they'll bring it when you call them. That's how those things get placed and as far as I can tell, that's how they got placed in my neighborhood anyway. And as far as traffic goes, I don't see how me working out of an office in my house and meeting a few tenants and a few prospective buyers is going to add to any problems there. I've always been concerned about the traffic up and down there. I have called the sheriff many times. I don't think my business is the same as people zipping from Warren road fifty miles an hour down past, maybe only 40,past my house, while they get to their beautiful; homes on Winthrop drive. So that's how it is. So, like I said, I've been very ardent about dealing with that issue, and I will continue whether I have a business there or not. Mrs. Noden has been a great neighbor, I'm going to have to make sure that... I want to put a new sliding door in and better curtains in my kitchen. I would definitely put a door on my kitchen. There's my foyer and then my kitchen right behind my foyer, and then Mrs. Noden's house. She's right, her family room, that side of the house, and it's not directly across from my doors but pretty close. So better curtains on my doors and I would put a door on my kitchen. Chairperson Sigel—That would separate then the foyer from the kitchen? Mr. Giordano - It would. When somebody comes over to do business with me, I'd make sure the door's closed. I can't stress enough how much this is really me working on my computer in my house and answering my phone more than... and when people come to my home. When I deal with my customers, I always treat them as though they're coming to my home whether it's in my home office or wherever the office is. And... so, what am I trying to say. I really don't expect a lot of traffic. And I would really, as the board, as long as the board is acting by the laws, what the code says. I haven't consulted my attorney on this, I was really hoping this would be a very simple... but I want to abide by the laws. So, as long as I am abiding by the laws and you make this approval, if you want to set some sort of limitations on the way I conducted my business. That's why I asked for it to be read again. I'm not going top be putting fumes in the neighborhood, I'm not building another structure, I'm a real estate agent, I greatly value my home. I'm definitely going to improve the value of it as a result of this. I might not be able to if I'm not granted the approval. I don't mean to say that in any... but very simple, the money I have in my pocket to make a home business. If I don't have that in my home, then that's going for an office downtown here someplace. That's the way it's going to be. I need to eat. This is my business, this is my livelihood. I don't mean to go on and on here, but IL take this very seriously as a result of that. I have two children. These people have 15 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES children, I've always respected everyone in the neighborhood. I've never felt that I've been a bad neighbor... but... Mr. Frost—Your kids go to northeast school? Mr. Giordano - My daughter walks across to northeast school. Mr. Frost—So she herself attends the school? Mr. Giordano - Everyday, yeah. And it is something important, the neighborhood kind of polices itself. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has called about speeding cars, I guarantee you some of my neighbors have. And we watch out front you know, others kids. Chairperson Sigel—I just want to try to figure out which of the proposals you're planning on doing as far as the driveway layout? Mr. Giordano - I'm just trying to give you an idea. I need a landscaper to go to the property, and really what we're talking about is sizes here. Can I make another point while we're on driveways real quick? My property, if you look at this, is right on the corner of Christopher Circle. There are two driveways. Mine comes off Christopher lane and my other one comes off Christopher Circle to my apartment. My apartment is completely separated and the people I bought the house from did the building, I had nothing to do with it. I bought the home, by the way, that way, because it's the only way I could afford to have my kids go to Northeast School. Anyway, the gravel driveway is separate, there's no—the traffic that's going to come through my driveway will not be involved with the other one and there are huge pine trees, there are quite a bit of trees between the two driveways, and I bought the home because of that, because there was such privacy between the two units. And as far as, I tried to point out where my house was situated. I'm on Christopher lane and I am more a part of the entrance to Northeast school than anything else. I mean, I am a member of the neighborhood, I do have a house that's on the corner of the circle, but I'm not on the quietest street of that part of the neighborhood. You've just got to see this neighborhood, it's a busy entrance to Northeast school and people go up and down the road, so I don't think once again that I am going to be causing anything detrimental to that neighborhood, by me having a business for myself working in my house and one or two employees. I don't expect to have any employees other than me. Anyway, there are other people got to talk tonight. But I can't overemphasize, I really care about what people think of me more than anything else. Other than when I couldn't afford to cut my grass. I can afford to do that now, thank god. Chairperson Sigel—OK, well, let us... Mr. Giordano- OK, so you asked about the driveway and the widening of which one... 16 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Frost—I just want to bring up to the board that our attorney asked me a question and it's a good question. There's a section of the map that you have in front of you, the survey map that shows Christopher circle ending down at Warren Road, it actually says "To Warren Road". Christopher Circle turned into Christopher Lane and the town about two or three years ago made the entire stretch from Warren road all the way down to be Christopher Lane. Christopher Circle is actually the circle that goes around and comes back onto Christopher Lane. So your map here will show Christopher Circle there and Christopher Circle here. This whole stretch Warren road being in this location is actually Christopher lane because we changed the name. So you shouldn't be confused. Mr. Matthews —Mr. Giordano, clarify for me. If I misheard you, I apologize. You said, I thought you said, that if you don't get an affirmative vote for this variance or this approval, that you would not take care of your property and get an office downtown, is that what I heard? Mr. Giordano -No, I don't... Mr. Frost—I think what he said is he wouldn't have the money to fix the property up because he'd be putting it into an office. Mr. Giordano - An office downtown is $1,000 a month. Mr. Matthews—Did I misinterpret your remark? Mr. Giordano - What's that? Mr. Matthews —Did I misinterpret your remark? Mr. Giordano - Yeah. I would not perform the improvements that I propose. Chairperson Sigel—You meant you probably wouldn't improve the driveway and the proposed landscape? Mr. Giordano - I'd probably do my driveway because it needs it. Mr. Matthews —But you weren't implying that you would no longer take care of the property? Mr. Giordano - I've been taking care of real estate in Tompkins County since I was a boy. When I say this, my uncle and my father and my grandfather have been doing it for 80 years, so I want to take care of my property, I want it to be valuable, I want to be able to sell it. Mr. Matthews —That's fine. I apologize if I interpreted it that way. 17 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Chairperson Sigel—OK, well, I'll just throw out as a proposal,personally I'm comfortable approving this, with the main condition that there only be one person passed at this house for this business, and that be Mr. Giordano. As John pointed out, the ordinance normally would permit up to two additional employees. Mr. Frost—Well, the old ordinance, there was, I don't think the word is dichotomy, between home occupations and professional offices, and the ordinance,prior to April of 04, gave more leeway to people who have licenses whether they be doctors, lawyers, architects, etc. They could have a home occupation so to speak. The mechanical type home occupations, car repair, laundry, I forget some other things, carpentry, were allowed less than what the professional people were allowed. So in part, the new ordinance, as of April of 04 tried to bring the two more equally together as to what they have. I don't know if that answers your question. Mr. Barney—The specific answer to your question is you can have up to two persons from outside the resident household and not more than four persons including resident household people there. So, translated, you could have 4 people who live in the household could all be working in the business, or you could have two people from outside the house and two people from inside the house. Mr. Frost—But they've always required than any occupation in the home have at least the... occupant of the home... Mr. Barney—Yes. The statute specifically says that the owner and chief operating officer of the business must be an owner and full time resident of the property in which the business is conducted. It's all in the definition of home occupation. Chairperson Sigel—And is this, another requirement is that it be no more than 25% of the floor space? Mr. Barney—Right. If I get the floor space right, it's about 300 and change and the total building space is about 2200, so we're within the 25%. Chairperson Sigel—So personally, given what you've described with having clients come and having your handyman and subcontractors, who I understand won't be based at your house but will be visiting you from time to time, and given the fact that you have an apartment there and all, I think it would be reasonable to limit it to just yourself, which you've indicated is your intention. To not have any additional employees there. And if it was approved with that condition, you would be free in the future, if you decided if you wanted to add an employee that would be based at your house to come back and request approval for that. Mr. Giordano - Just a question, subcontractor, that doesn't count as an employee, that's not the same is it? 18 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Barney—I think what they're trying to get at, is there really going to be people streaming in and out of there, creating traffic. If you're dealing with a subcontractor who perhaps does painting in the apartment that you manage, is that subcontractor going to be making telephone calls and coming to your place of business to make your contacts and store paint and do all of that stuff there, or is that subcontractor going to have a place business that's located somewhere other than this property? I think what they'd be concerned about is if that subcontractor was contacting his employees or his sub-sub contractors out of your establishment, and basically having to come in there and spend time at it, that would not be acceptable. Chairperson Sigel—But just the mere fact that you hire a subcontractor would be fine. Mr. Frost—If he was coming to you to discuss business and get directions, whatever, that's fine. Mr. Giordano - Yeah, he's not going to store his paint. Mr. Frost—He's not conducting his business from your property. Chairperson Sigel—Right, we don't want him to have a desk there. We don't want him to conduct business there, to store anything there. That... Mr. Giordano - I wouldn't want him to either. Chairperson Sigel—I didn't think that was your intention, I just want to make clear that I would like to see that formalized. Mr. Giordano - I just want to understand what the definition of the law is. That's my biggest concern, that I be treated under the laws of the land. That saying, the code says I can have two employees,plus two in my family can be employees, do I understand that right, Mr. Barney? Mr. Barney—Unless there was a condition otherwise. Mr. Giordano -Unless there is a condition otherwise. OK. Mr. Frost—So this board is talking about possibly granting you an approval but with some limitations. Mr. Giordano - Limitation being that I be the only... Mr. Barney—I think that what this board could say and what I think... I don't want to speak for them, but what I sense them saying is that an operation of a home occupation to the extent and amount that may be permitted by the ordinance, they find would be out of character with the neighborhood and would create more traffic than would be permitted there. So the next step is, is there a form of home occupation that can be conducted there 19 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES if we put limitations on it that would not create as much of a problem. I don't want to give you the impression that simply because the code says you can have two employees, non-resident, and two resident employees, that this board couldn't say on that basis that we feel we can't absorb a home occupation in this neighborhood of up to that magnitude. Mr. Giordano - OK. Chairperson Sigel—I mean, obviously if what the ordinance said you were allowed by right, you wouldn't be here. Mr. Giordano - Yup. Chairperson Sigel—Any questions, comments? Mr. Ellsworth—Did you finish your limitations? Chairperson Sigel—That was really my main concern was the number. Mr. Ellsworth—I think that since J says that under consideration of approval, he must be required to make these improvements of loading and unloading, otherwise the driveway improvements. Chairperson Sigel—So you'll want to require that his proposed improvements be made. Mr. Niefer—I still stick with my hours of operation as a factor, and also a three-year permit situation, that's my feeling or suggestion at the moment, that there be a limitation of three years. And further that it be specified that there be no warehousing or storage of any type of material that is incidental to the ownership and maintenance of apartment dwellings that he manages. That there be no storage of that type of material on premises, or, well on premises, that would include both inside and outside. Because I see that carport there, that's a spot where somebody could move in refrigerators and stoves and other things, so I don't think there should be any evidence of warehousing on the premises. Mr. Barney—Actually, the law basically states that. One of the conditions for qualifying as a home occupation is that there is no exterior display or sign, except as permitted by the sign ordinance which allows a four square foot identification sign. No exterior storage of materials, equipment, including commercial vehicles, or other items of commerce, and no other exterior indication of the home occupation or the variation from the residential character of the lot, district or surrounding neighborhood, so, I don't know if you want to beef up that condition in any way. Mr. Niefer—No, if it's in the ordinance... Mr. Barney—That is the definition of home occupation, so if he violates that, he's no longer home occupation. 20 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Niefer—I think further that there be some stipulation that the exterior of the property be maintained in accordance with the character of the neighborhood so that three years hence, that would be a consideration for continuation, if there should be a request to continue. Chairperson Sigel—Any other? Mr. Frost—I don't know how you word that, I would want to be a little careful as the enforcement person, I don't want to get into trying to regulate esthetics, you know, to make his property somehow aesthetically more pleasing than anybody else's property. Mr. Barney—I think I'd rather see, if you would take a humble suggestion from your very humble lawyer, that it be stated I a different way, not so much that it's a condition, because that does put us in the enforcement position. I don't want to name neighbors, but if one neighbor mows her lawn weekly and keeps it impeccably mowed and somebody mows it every third week and it does get a little ratty at times, which standard are we going to be applying as being the character of the neighborhood, but I think it wouldn't hurt to say that at such time of a renewal were to be applied for, that the manner in which the property has been maintained will be taken into account in making that determination. Mr. Frost—Personally, I think it needs to be consistent with the laws that apply to everybody, and we do have a property maintenance law. Mr. Niefer- Well, up in that general area, I've seen some places that you've had to come in with a brush-hog to clean up the lots. Mr. Frost—But we also have no regulation that mandates anyone cutting their bushes back, mowing their lawns, we don't have those regulations. I wouldn't want to see him have to abide, as a homeowner, by regulations that are different from anyone else who is a homeowner there. Mr. Niefer—Well, I think John's suggestion is a viable suggestion. Chairperson Sigel—Any other questions, comments? Mr. Matthews —I'm going to make another comment, if I may. Chairperson Sigel—Yup. Mr. Matthews —I'm listening to the comments of my colleagues here and so forth, and I almost consider them new neighbors of the intended business. And I get an antsy feeling that there's going to be ongoing complaints about this that and the other thing. They could be sensing something wrong here, but speaking for what I consider to be a neighborhood, they may not be a happy group of people. We're putting in all these conditions, and nobody's going to go around and look at it every month, maybe you do, I 21 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES don't know that. It seems like we're putting another conditions in this that's trying to address the dissatisfaction that we feel as board members. That's all I'll say. Chairperson Sigel—Well, ... Mr. Krantz—I feel a little uncomfortable about the way this is going too. You spoke before about, we can't make the rules any different here for this property than it is for the surrounding properties. That's exactly what we're doing. We're allowing a business in a residential district. Chairperson Sigel—That is allowed. Mr. Frost—Something I said... my point was that I didn't want to apply something like a property maintenance issue that we already have in place for all neighbors in a residential neighborhood, I didn't want to make something over and above. Mr. Krantz—I understand that, Andy. Chairperson Sigel—I mean, we're not granting a use variance here. It is a special approval, home occupation is allowed in this district as in I think all the residential districts. Mr. Matthews —But we're to look at those fifteen items that John brought up, and that's what we're doing. Chairperson Sigel—Right, and if we find that those conditions have been met then we are obligated to grant approval. Mr. Matthews —There's judgment calls involved here. Mr. Frost—But there's also, it's the neighborhood, if someone has a complaint about property maintenance, my office gets a call, we go out and investigate, if there's a violation then we have them clean it up. So we do have laws in place that hopefully protect the neighborhood from stuff like that. Chairperson Sigel—OK... Mr. Barney—Just, the driveway, what are the conditions you wanted regarding the driveway? Mr. Ellsworth—Well he has a proposal for improving the driveway. Chairperson Sigel—He proposed to improve it to be a stone driveway. Mr. Barney—Are you going to denominate proposal number? 22 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Ellsworth— [reads] Parking and loading facilities are adequately... Chairperson Sigel—Well, he didn't really commit to any of them. Proposal number three seems the most reasonable to me, what you've labeled proposal two is rather wide, that's actually drawn further east then your carport. Mr. Giordano - Yeah, that's not really drawn to scale very well. I'm just trying to give the impression that something between the two might be. You know, what I can say anything Mr. Frost says I should put in there, I'll put in there, if you want to make that a... Chairperson Sigel—I would think no further than the edge of the carport would be reasonable? Mr. Giordano - The edge of the carport? Chairperson Sigel—Yeah. Mr. Giordano - The carport, you mean the end of it? Chairperson Sigel—Yeah. Mr. Giordano - That protrudes out in the east? Chairperson Sigel—Yeah. Mr. Giordano - OK. Chairperson Sigel—Because you have one drawn where it's actually a little bit further which seems excessive. Mr. Giordano - Yeah, definitely, I got a little... I just zipped that off at Kinko's a few hours ago. Mr. Barney—Which proposal is that? Chairperson Sigel—So that's two, or three... Mr. Giordano -Not to go past the carport would be... Mr. Barney—Proposal number two. OK. Mr. Krantz—Should the door inside so that the people in the waiting room don't look into the neighbors home, be mentioned? 23 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Chairperson Sigel—Well,personally ?I feel like that maybe goes a little too far, but I wouldn't be opposed to it, if others felt strongly. Mr. Giordano - If you would please put it in, I wouldn't want Mrs. Noden, I'm not, the neighbors aren't always happy, so at least they know that I am concerned about addressing their concern. Chairperson Sigel—Well, if the applicant wants it as a condition. Mr. Niefer—He said he'd do it before. Chairperson Sigel—Hi Mike. Mr. Smith—Hello. Nothing to add. Chairperson Sigel—Nothing to add. OK. Alright, any further? Mr. Niefer—The sign, the sketch kind of indicates it's going to be a V sign, is it in fact a V sign? Chairperson Sigel—No, I think he was just putting an arrow on there, the sign is what he has here. Mr. Niefer—Single face. Mr. Giordano - It's actually going to be more like my business card, you know, I've been playing around with designs, and that's going to be more attractive, I think, but I may add some of the yellow, that's my real estate signs are going to be the yellow and blue signs for when I'm selling homes. But the sign in front of my house is going to be very much like my business card design. Mr. Barney—So like this? Mr. Giordano -No, like the other one. That's just way too loud and just not acceptable for the neighborhood really I think. So, my business card, you know there's the logo on it, and the wording, something along those lines, that's why I included it. Mr. Barney—This, with the picture? Mr. Giordano - My wife won't let me put the picture out there. Mr. Frost—Whatever he puts up is going to have to comply with the sign law, so. Chairperson Sigel—And there's nothing in the law in a residential zone about color choice or anything like that is there? No, I didn't think so. OK, so if there're no further comments or questions, I will... I will move to make a negative determination of 24 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES environmental significance in the appeal of Joseph Giordano, requesting a special approval from the Zoning Board of Appeals under Article IX, Section 270-69, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 71-2-2. Second? Mr. Ellsworth—Second. Chairperson Sigel—all in favor? Board—Aye. ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2005- 014 : ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT : Joseph Giordano, 100 Christopher Circle, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 71.-2-2 MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Harry Ellsworth. RESOLVED that this Board makes a negative determination of environmental significance in the appeal of Joseph Giordano, requesting a special approval from the Zoning Board of Appeals under Article IX, Section 270-69, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 71-2-2. The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows: AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Krantz, Niefer NAYS: Matthews The MOTION was declared to be carried. Chairperson Sigel—Dick, are you opposed? Mr. Matthews —Yes. Chairperson Sigel—OK, Dick opposed. Chairperson Sigel—And I will move to grant the appeal of Joseph Giordano, Appellant, requesting a special approval from the Zoning Board of Appeals under Article IX, Section 270-69 of the Town of Ithaca Code, to be permitted to conduct a home occupation real estate office at 100 Christopher Circle, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 71-2-2, Medium Density Residential Zone. With the... John, I suspected that you had generated some conditions? Mr. Barney—With the following conditions... Chairperson Sigel—With the following conditions... 25 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Barney— 1. No more than 1 person shall work out of the home in the business and that person shall be Mr. Giordano. 2. The hours of operation shall be no earlier than 9 a.m. and no later than 7:00 p.m. daily. 3. The special approval is limited to a period of three years from tonight's date. 4. On any application for renewal of the special approval, the manner in which the property had been maintained shall be considered. 5. The driveway shall be improved per proposal number three submitted with the application. 6. An interior door be installed between the kitchen and the foyer. And this is done with the findings you need to make under section 270-200, items A-L. Chairperson Sigel—OK, everyone here what they wanted to hear in that? OK, second? Mr. Ellsworth—Second. Chairperson Sigel—All in favor? Aye. Opposed? OK. It passes. Thank you. ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2005- 015: Joseph Giordano, 100 Christopher Circle, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 71.-2-2 MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Harry Ellsworth RESOLVED that this Board grants the appeal Joseph Giordano, Appellant, requesting a special approval from the Zoning Board of Appeals under Article IX, Section 270-69 of the Town of Ithaca Code, to be permitted to conduct a home occupation real estate office at 100 Christopher Circle, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 71-2-2, Medium Density Residential Zone. FINDINGS: The requirements of Article VIII, Section 270-200 items A through L have been satisfied. CONDITIONS- 1. ONDITIONS:1. No more than one person shall work out of the home in the business, and that person shall be Mr. Giordano. 2. The hours of operation shall be no earlier than 9 a.m. and no later than 7 p.m. daily. 3. This special approval is limited to a period of three years from March 21, 2005. 4. On any application for renewal of the special approval, the manner in which the property has been maintained shall be considered. 5. The driveway will be improved per proposal number three submitted with the application. 6. An interior door will be installed between the kitchen and the foyer. The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows: AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Krantz, Niefer 26 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES NAYS: Matthews The MOTION was declared to be carried. Mr. Giordano - Thank you. APPEAL of Lawrence Sallinger, Appellant, requesting a variance from the requirements of Article VIII, Section 270-60 of the Town of Ithaca Code, to be allowed to maintain a newly constructed home with a south side yard building setback of 35 feet (40 feet required) at 10 Apple Blossom Lane, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 33-3-8.14, Low Density Residential Zone. Chairperson Sigel—Mr. Sallinger? Please take a seat. We'll see if we can process this case a little quicker than the last one. Mr. Sallinger - I hope so. Chairperson Sigel—I suspect we will. Please just start with your name and address. Mr. Sallinger- Lawrence Sallinger, 14 Peach Tree Lane, Ithaca NY. Chairperson Sigel—And, why don't you cut to the chase and tell us why it's too close. Mr. Sallinger- That's the 64 dollar question. My wife and I purchased a new home on ten Apple Blossom Lane last summer, and we entered into a sales contract in January of this year, and the buyer through their due diligence discovered that the house is five feet closer to the lot line than permitted. So, we're here to get a variance, hopefully get a variance in order to consummate the sale. Chairperson Sigel—OK, so you bought the property with the house already built, and you just bought it last summer? Mr. Sallinger- Yes. Chairperson Sigel—And now you're selling it this year? Mr. Sallinger- Yes. Chairperson Sigel—And it looks like the garage side is thirty feet? Mr. Sallinger - the garage side is fine. Chairperson Sigel—Which is fine, because an attached garage can be closer. And then the other side is 35, OK. Any questions? 27 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Matthews —You just pick the house up and move it, right? Can we move the land under it? Chairperson Sigel—I think we require every tenth applicant to move the house, Mr. Sallinger is the ninth, I think. Mr. Barney—You forgot one. Chairperson Sigel—Oh did we, Mr. Sallinger is the tenth? OK, there's no Environmental assessment with this. We'll open the public hearing. Chairperson Sigel opens the public hearing at 8:24 p.m. Chairperson Sigel—Does anyone wish to speak? If no, we'll close the public hearing. Chairperson Sigel closes the public hearing at 8:25 p.m. Chairperson Sigel—And I will move to grant the appeal of Lawrence Sallinger requesting a variance from the requirements of Article VIII, Section 270-60 of the Town of Ithaca Code, to be allowed to maintain a newly constructed home with a south side yard setback of no less than 34 feet(where 40 feet is required) at 10 Apple Blossom Lane, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 33-3-8.14, Low Density Residential Zone. With the finding that the requirements for an area variance have been satisfied, and with the one condition that no additional structure beyond what is already built be constructed within the 40 foot side-yard setback. I allowed 34,but I'm just saying to not build any more structures within the required setback of 40 feet. Mr. Frost—I don't know if you want to now, but at the current time, lot 13, immediately adjacent to the deficient side yard is a vacant lot. No one's on that side where there's a deficiency is there? Chairperson Sigel—I think there's a building there. Mr. Frost—Is there a building on that side that's deficient? Mr. Sallinger -No. Mr. Frost—So it is a vacant parcel at the moment. Chairperson Sigel—OK. Mr. Barney—For the moment. Chairperson Sigel—Second? Mr. Krantz—Second. 28 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Chairperson Sigel—All in favor? ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2005- 016: Lawrence Sallinger, 10 Apple Blossom Lane, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 33.-3-8.14 MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Ronald Krantz. RESOLVED that this Board grants the appeal of Lawrence Sallinger requesting a variance from the requirements of Article VIII, Section 270-60 of the Town of Ithaca Code, to be allowed to maintain a newly constructed home with a south side yard building setback of no less than 34 feet, where 40 feet is required at 10 Apple Blossom Lane, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 33-3-8.14, Low Density Residential Zone. FINDINGS: The requirements for an area variance have been satisfied. CONDITIONS: No additional structure, beyond what is already built, be constructed within the 40 foot side yard setback. The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows: AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Krantz, Niefer, Matthews NAYS: NONE The MOTION was declared to be carried unanimously. Mr. Matthews —May I ask a question? Chairperson Sigel—Thank you. You're all set. Yup, go ahead. Mr. Matthews —How does this happen? Chairperson Sigel—I'm not a builder, I don't know. Mr. Frost—One of the things I included was a copy of the plot plan that was shown for construction, we don't necessarily ask for survey maps unless there's something that's real close, you know, if there's a real, if they were showing exactly the minimum setback, we may require a survey map, but builders screw up sometimes. I'd say out of the hundreds, if not thousands of permits we've issued, I would say that this has happened maybe a dozen times. So it's not unusual, it's not real common given the percentage of people that build without error. Mr. Matthews —OK. 29 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Chairperson Sigel—We've had other properties in the last five or six years that similar situations. Mr. Matthews —OK. Mr. Barney—Ideally, you should pay a surveyor to go out and set the corners of the house, but ideally costs money. Mr. Ellsworth—Well, if somebody's getting a mortgage, doesn't the bank require that? Mr. Barney—Well, it is unusual for the bank not to require an as-built survey once the foundation is in, but then the banker reads it, and the banker may not pick up on the fact that there's a deviation from the zoning ordinance? Mr. Ellsworth—The buyer's lawyer? Mr. Barney—I don't know, when Mr. Sallinger bought it, it was a vacant piece of land, wasn't it, or was the house built? Chairperson Sigel—No he bought it with the house on it. Mr. Sallinger - It was the buyer's lawyer that picked it up. Mr. Barney—Your buyer? Mr. Sallinger -Not me, not my lawyer. My lawyer missed it, their buyer picked it up. Mr. Frost—Sometimes the banks don't require it. Sometimes the lawyers representing the buyers miss it. This topic, interestingly, has been before our Town Board, not our current town board, but in the past we've had debate at the town board level as to whether we wanted people to actually get survey maps. The town has kind of backed away from that. They may change their minds. What's interesting, over the years I've been with the town, I've had four town supervisors, god knows how many town board members, and philosophies change. In the past, we've decided not to request surveys, unless there was a reason that we needed to have it, and we have done that on a few occasions. Mr. Matthews —Thank you. APPEAL of Todd Roswech and Melisa Anthony, Appellants, requesting a variance from the requirements of Article VIII, Section 270-60E and Article XXVII, Section 270-223 of the Town of Ithaca Code, to be permitted to have an accessory building/greenhouse located in the front and/or side yard, rather than the required rear yard and a fence over six feet in height (for deer control) at 102 Drew Road, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 28-1-34.29, Low Density Residential Zone. 30 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Chairperson Sigel—Good evening. Please just begin with your name and address. Mr. Roswech - My name is Todd Roswech, I'm here with my wife, Melisa Anthony, we're at 102 Drew Road in the Town of Ithaca. Chairperson Sigel—And give us a brief overview of what you want to do. Mr. Roswech - We are interested in starting a market garden at our residence, and this will require as stated, a fence and a greenhouse. This,just so you have some idea of what I mean by market garden, it's something that's probably larger than most people's home gardens but certainly much smaller than anything you would consider a farm. We intend to grow organically and grow vegetables and small crops as close to year around as we can. With this, as you've mentioned, the fence is for deer control and the greenhouse, which is intended to be an unheated greenhouse, so there would be no auxiliary equipment, but just using solar gain in order to have a somewhat warmer than outside environment to grow crops. Part of the unique features and why we're interested in locating it where we are interested in locating it on the property entail aspects such as soil and cleared area, but most importantly solar access to that site. There are, there is a little plot map included in the information that is provided, and it shows where it's located as far as adjacent to what neighboring properties are and some of the primary ecological features of the area, such as trees that may result in shading. One thing that may not be shown is that across the street from us and slightly to the west there are large, also large evergreen trees that cause shading, should we consider moving further, and those are beyond our control. And, the fence we intend is a standard post and woven wire fence. I have two copies here,perhaps I can ... Chairperson Sigel—You are proposing 8 feet high? Mr. Roswech - We spoke with Dr. Paul Curtis at Cornell who is also involved in the Cayuga Heights Deer Project, as far as what our alternatives for deer are, and his comments were, and eight foot fence is the only things that's been able to be somewhat reliable. Ms. Anthony - We have about six deer that cross our property every morning and evening, so we're sure there's going to be an issue involving them. Chairperson Sigel—So I'm assuming that you are going to be planting crops both inside and the greenhouse? Mr. Roswech - That's correct. And the greenhouse will actually be located basically in two different positions toward the front of the yard, and it be relocated approximately every nine months. And this is sort of a crop rotation management to allow access to natural weather conditions such as rain and sun, so to avoid buildup of pests and weeds that one would usually encounter in a greenhouse covered area. 31 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Chairperson Sigel—OK. Any questions? Mr. Frost—Can you clarify a little bit, the board may have thoughts about what kind of sales may be conducted from the property. Which a road side stand in board terms is allowed, but could you just explain what you might be doing in terms of sales from the property? Ms. Anthony - At this point we don't have plans for sales directly from the property. We're planning to grow a lot of different varieties to figure out what grows well and what doesn't. And I imagine because it's a large garden for the two of us, so we would have an excess of produce, which, if we have enough, we would bring down to the farmers market, for, I know you can get a day permit to sell what extra we have. There may be a point where we consider a small roadside stand, but we haven't gone to the point of... we know it's allowed, we don't know what those regulations are, we'd abide by those regulations if we're interested, but at this point we're just concentrating on growing and figuring out how to grow in Ithaca, we moved to Ithaca in August, from California, so we learned about organic agriculture a bit there, but we need to have the conditions here and play around with the greenhouse concept to figure out what we might be able to... [tape is changed] Mr. Krantz - ...buy agricultural land to the north, to the south, to the east and Enfield is to the west, which has no zoning. So it's almost like a little, it's right on the edge of?? Farm, which is a bunch of nice little houses but it is basically an agricultural area. Mr. Roswech - One the Town of Ithaca zoning map behind you, it is that little dark green island that's sitting out on the far west edge. So there is a darker green island and that is where Drew Road is located. Mr. Matthews —What's the variance? I have a big garden at home. Should I be down here at that table? Attorney Barney—Do you want to put an 8 foot fence up? Mr. Frost—One of the variances is that they want to have an 8 foot fence which is going to be protruding into the setback area where we only allow 6 foot and then I've also put in there an accessory building is supposed to be limited to the rear yard. The greenhouse will be an accessory building and it's going to be at times in the front yard. My understanding is that they are going to be moving this stuff around. Mr. Roswech—It's a temporary building. Mr. Frost—An accessory building is an accessory building. Mr. Matthews —So I'm safe with my garden at home? 32 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Chairperson Sigel—Are you conducting a home occupation there? Mr. Matthews —My wife makes me grow a lot of tomatoes. Chairperson Sigel—Do you eat the food? Mr. Matthews —She doesn't pay me for them. Chairperson Sigel—It's the height of the fence being close to the property line. You can have an 8 foot fence if it is setback from the required setbacks for an accessory structure. Mr. Matthews —Are there people next door? Mr. Roswech—There are people next door on the side where the greenhouse will be, yes. Mr. Matthews —Is there somebody living there now? Ms. Anthony—I'm not sure. The house has been for sale and I'm not sure if its been sold or not. It may be in transition. Mr. Matthews —And you don't know if they have a comment about this or not? Ms. Anthony—I don't know. Mr. Frost—We do have some people in the public. Mr. Roswech—And also on that side there is also a hedgerow of trees and natural vegetation between the properties. Mr. Niefer—Is the fence semi-permanent or will the fence be moved too? Mr. Roswech—The fence will be as permanent as fences are around here. Mr. Niefer—So the greenhouse will be moved within the fenced in area? Mr. Roswech—Within the fenced area, correct. Chairperson Sigel—Then you will be growing crops in whatever area is not covered by the greenhouse within the fence? Mr. Roswech—That's correct. Mr. Frost—The way the law reads, if the fence wasn't within the setback area they could have a fence as high as 36 feet as long as they were maintaining the setbacks as they would for any other structure. No one has ever done that. so since this is encroaching within the setbacks, anything over 6 foot needs the variance. 33 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Matthews —So the reason they can't put the fence within the setback limitations is? Mr. Roswech—Is because the setback from the front yard I believe is 30 feet and from the side its 40. on this property it would result in... Mr. Ellsworth—Shade. Mr. Roswech—Well not very much left over for a garden located in a heavily shaded area. Mr. Frost—So they are trying to maximize the area. Chairperson Sigel—Any other questions before we open the public hearing? At this point we'll open the public hearing. Ma'am please. You can come and have a seat on the end there. Please just begin with your name and address. Paula Solat, 103 Drew Road I am Paula Solat, owner of 103 Drew Road and my husband Charles Solat. We live directly across the street from the proposed fence and greenhouse. We are actually opposed to this for the following reasons. We are concerned with the visual affect of the established housing development. We feel that it would have a negative impact on the existing character of the neighborhood. We feel that when the neighborhood was established, 30 plus years ago, restrictions were set up for a reason and that was to protect your home investment. The information given regarding the appeal on this notice that we received was rather vague. It just mentioned, you've clarified some of that, 6-foot fence. We didn't know how high or what kind and then it mentioned building an accessory building greenhouse. We didn't know how big, with what materials, how the will greenhouse will affect neighboring wells. It doesn't always rain a lot in Ithaca. If the neighborhood is considered a low density residential zone, it is because Tompkins County is in compliance of State requirements regarding the recommended guidelines for building homes on land with clay soil. This is why we all have huge lots. At the price of greenhouse materials and fencing and the size of the land in question, this variance seems to be nothing more than a request to start a business in an established housing development. I should also add that when they mentioned solar access, Ithaca does not get a lot of sun. We have lived in our house for 33 years so we should know that. and also we all have the same problem with deer. The same deer come in our yard also. I am sure that all the neighbors have a problem with the deer. And the neighbors mentioned the sales from their grown vegetables or whatever at this point they do not have plans for having roadside stand. I think that is kind of the key at this point. So we are really talking about a business in a neighborhood. Chairperson Sigel—I should just point out to you that if they were to place this legally on their lot, which they could do I mean they could easily given the size of the lot they could easily place this so that it was legal and then I believe in this zone, Low Density 34 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Residential, is allowed a roadside stand. So if this was placed legally they could then have a roadside stand by right. So its really just the placement of it that brings them here. Ms. Solat—It should be in the rear of the yard? Chairperson Sigel—Right. It should be in the rear yard. So if they put it in the rear then that would be completely conforming and then they could have the roadside stand as well. I think it would be limited to 500 square feet, which is fairly small. Mr. Frost—And if they move the fence back, they can put a fence up to 30 foot high. So while I think the board is hearing your concerns, your concerns would still be out there even if they weren't before this board because they could by right just push everything back a little bit. Chairperson Sigel—I am somewhat sympathetic to your view that having this close to the road and directly across the street from your house is an issue for you. I mean it is a sight issue, a view issue. I just wanted to at least suggest to you that at least the other issues that you bring up would be the same if they had moved it and that would be by right. So it is a little hard for us to take into account some of your other concerns, but certainly the visual impact and it being close to the front of the lot is a very valid concern. Mr. Smith—And you could put a fence in this location,just not at that height. If it were two feet shorter you wouldn't need the variance either. Chairperson Sigel—Did you have any other comments? Ms. Solat—No. Actually I apologize I didn't bring enough,just one set of pictures, but I wanted to just leave a set of pictures just to show you the character of the neighborhood. Its an old established housing development. Its called Drew Park Subdivision and I just wanted you to see the character of the neighborhood and I have pictures of the lot across the road from us that has already been cleared. Sometimes it is more helpful to have a visual. Mr. Niefer—I thought you said something about subdivision restrictions in the deeds for the subdivision. If you say, well its not necessarily our responsibility to look at that. Have you looked at any restrictions in the deeds with the subdivision to the usage of the property? Ms. Solat—Yeah. You couldn't have chickens or pigs. Somebody wasn't supposed to build a house to block your view. I mean a lot of that is, you know, a house on a comer...the trees grew up so it didn't matter whether or not the house was two-story because the trees grew up anyway, but yes there are restrictions in our deeds. Mr. Frost—But you are saying that those restrictions made allowances for livestock? Ms. Solat—For livestock? Not that I know of. 35 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Frost—I thought that you said something about pigs and... Ms. Solat—No. you're not supposed to have chickens and... Mr. Matthews —Are there any other neighbors that said they were going to come down here tonight? Ms. Solat—Not that I know of. The neighbors that they mentioned that are on the other side of that I think probably moved in two weeks ago. So they are really very new. In fact, I mean really and truly, my husband and I are very easy to get along with and I think its...I mean its hard for me to meet our new neighbors at the Board of Appeals. Its very hard. Chairperson Sigel—Okay. Well, thank you for your time. Sir, would you like to speak? Please just begin with your name and address. Charles Solat, 103 Drew Road First of all I would like to suggest to the Town that they build a 35 foot high fence and put all the deer in it because it is not just a problem for a garden I mean my shrubs and even the neighbors shrubs. I realize this and part of the character...the lot in question in fact a few weeks ago, a month ago, you granted a variance because the home where it is situated now that was originally two lots owned by Catherine Sterns who passed away and I assume the property was handed down to the family and that was part of the objective of the whole neighborhood up there. Big lots. You are not infringing on anybody. Well, obviously she has passed away and the upper lot I assume did not meet code so 22 foot was annexed to her. I mean we received notification of that and that wasn't any problem from this. But this...my wife mention and as you can see from the pictures and everything this is directly across from our house. Nobody is going to...nobody else is going to see it because the lots are so big. I mean I just would ask you if you would like to see an 8 foot fence you know right on whatever the distance is going to be from the edge of the road and then a greenhouse. And I would say yes a sunny area now location...was it going to reflect in my windows when the sun is at a certain angle in the morning, etc, etc. and then the question that my wife brought up is they already mentioned if they grow too much that this is going to become a business. and I heard that your response would be that they could have roadside stand, but as one member mentioned this is an agriculture area. This area is not. It's a subdivision. Its home. People have lived there. Nothing has really changed except the people who own the houses. There has been some houses down in the woods, but that's about all I can say. The question was brought up and yes it is in our deed the domesticated animals and Mr. Drew when he was alive and there was one rule that you could not build to block somebody's view. As my wife pointed out the lot next to us was empty for a long time. yes they did build a two-story house and the trees have grown up beyond that. I mean you can see Ithaca College from everywhere and now you can kind of see Ithaca College, but that was through natural tree growth. You can't make them cut down their trees so a two story house was not a problem at that time for us. What I am saying is that I feel that 36 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES we are the only one affected. As far as the people next door, yes there is a huge hedge row. They will not see it and as my wife point out they moved in two weeks ago. We don't officially know if they got the notice or anything. And that's all I have to say. Thank you. Chairperson Sigel—Sir, did you want to speak? Paul Sterns, 141 Sodom Road I am the owner of the vacant lot that abuts the property. As I understand it, what they are asking for is just a matter of distance from the lot line. They could move it back in and it would still be 8 foot tall and it would still look the same to everyone in the neighborhood. Attorney Barney—It would look a little different if you were across the road from it. Mr. Sterns —Yeah. If you are across the road and you are looking at it the distance from the road isn't going to change the view of it a whole lot. It doesn't seem like. My intention with the lot up above is to ultimately to develop that and put a house in. I don't see that it is the type of use that is going to cause me to have any problems selling that house or attracting buyers to it when they build a house. So I'm just here to say I don't have a problem with the proposal. Attorney Barney—Paul, did your family sell to these folks? Mr. Sterns —Yes. Chairperson Sigel—Thank you very much. Sir? Mr. Solat—Can I speak again? Chairperson Sigel—Yeah. Sure. Come on back. Mr. Solat—Well my point being is the property that Mr. Sterns is speaking of he can't see that at all because he is up the hill. Their house now would completely block it. its not like looking right there. Chairperson Sigel—No. I understand. Mr. Solat—He can't even see the property from his house going up the hill. Chairperson Sigel—Right. It's the far side of the lot. Mr. Solat—Also I thought this variance was that they were trying to put in at the side of their house and now in the rear like it is supposed to be. I mean those lots are big, yes. I know what's behind there. You would have to do some work to clear trees and everything but the reason there was, was Mrs. Sterns that used to own that, yes she did have a personal little garden right there. So it was somewhat cleared out, not to the 37 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES extent that they have done it now. yes, there was an established garden but it was a one person garden. It was more for her daily activity and exercise to do. its not an 8 foot fence and a greenhouse that is going in. like I said, as far as view the only one it affects in the whole neighborhood is our property. I mean walk out my front door and there it is. I mean there is the orange sign right there. I don't know how well the picture shows it. Chairperson Sigel—I visited there today so I am aware how close it is to your house. Thank you. So how close could they get...I mean the 40 foot setback from the side yard is pretty cut and dry for this use. Right? An accessory building with a 40 foot side yard setback? Attorney Barney—As long as its...(not audible)... Mr. Frost—You are talking about the greenhouse. Chairperson Sigel—The whole setup. Mr. Frost—If it was in the rear yard, the way the ordinance reads at least in the ordinance if you were in the rear yard you could get within 5 feet of the rear property line with an accessory structure in the backyard. Chairperson Sigel—But not with a fence. Mr. Frost—If the fence was 6 foot it could be. Chairperson Sigel—But if the fence is 8 feet... Mr. Frost—Then it has to be setback the 40 feet as I understand the legal interpretation. Chairperson Sigel—From the side yard. Mr. Frost—Right. Attorney Barney—From the side yard each not less than 40 feet in width unless you are adjacent to a garage. Side yard is 40 feet, front yard is not less than 30 nor more than 60. Its whatever the average is between those two. Chairperson Sigel—So I guess what I'm wondering is if they didn't get any variance, how far back would they have to go? Mr. Frost—They would have to be set back 30 foot from the front. If they put a 6 foot fence in then there is no issue. This board has granted similar fences on other properties in the Town for 8 foot. Chairperson Sigel—Personally I'm not quite as concerned about the fence as I am about the structure. 38 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Frost—The structure, at least if it is in the rear yard, and I've...(not audible)...the current ordinance you can get within 3 foot of the property line if its in the rear yard. Chairperson Sigel—Is the rear yard... Mr. Frost—It is the line across from the back of the house to the back property line. Mr. Matthews —They said that they needed the sunlight in their narrative. They put the greenhouse in the backyard then they are not going to get the sunlight. Chairperson Sigel—Yeah...well. Right, given the trees on the lot now. I mean I am sympathetic to the applicant's desire to use part of the lot that gets sun without having to cut down trees. On the other hand, I think the neighbors argument is perfectly reasonable. Mr. Matthews —It sure is. I'm not opposed to people having gardens and I'm not opposed to people having fences to keep deer out. I think the suggestion to put a 35 foot fence up and put all the Ithaca deer in it is fine with me, but I am and I think I am starting to be known for this, but I am very concerned about someone coming into a neighborhood and changing it outside of the ordinance. People invest their money and time and sweat into the property and now their new neighbors are coming in and putting up an elephant in their view. Greenhouses are just fine. I have no problem with it, but I sure don't want to get up in the morning and look at a full faced one. So I'm very sympathetic to the people who live across the street. I want to welcome these folks from California, but I think I want to keep the neighbors that we have happy. Chairperson Sigel—Yeah, I mean the requirements for an area variance, the board in making its determination shall take into account the consideration of the benefit to the applicant if the variance is granted as a weight against the detriment to the health, safety and welfare of the neighborhood. In making such determination, the board shall also consider one, whether an undesirable change would be produced and the character of the neighborhood or detriment to neighboring properties will be created by the granting of the variance. Two, whether the benefit sought by the applicant can be achieved by some method feasible for the applicant to pursue other than an area variance, whether the variance is substantial or the variance will have an adverse affect or impact on the physical or environmental conditions in the neighborhood or district, whether the alleged difficulty was self-created, consideration should be relevant to the decision, but not necessarily preclude the granting of the variance. In granting any variance, the board shall grant the minimum variance it deems necessary and adequate and at the same time preserve and protect the character of the neighborhood. I look at this lot and I can't help but think it is pretty feasible to do what they want to do, maybe not quite as easily, without such a substantial variance or even allow any variance. 39 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Matthews —Without any variance? Mr. Frost—Well cutting down trees to move the greenhouse behind the house. Mr. Matthews —Not have it so close up. Chairperson Sigel—Yeah. Mr. Matthews —In your face of anything is never nice and that's what we are faced with here if I can put it in comical terms. Chairperson Sigel—Yeah. The house is not, given the depth of the lot, the house is not that far back. So there is quite a substantial portion of the lot behind the house qualifies for the location of the greenhouse. Mr. Matthews —I have no problem with that. If my word counts, I have no problem moving the greenhouse. I know the reason for having the greenhouse up close to the road, but those folks across the street have a right to see visual nicies, too. Chairperson Sigel—Yeah, I know...I mean they have a reasonable expectation that the front yard setback of their neighbors will be honored. Mr. Matthews —And I'm sure that they have no problem with the ordinance as it stands. Mr. Krantz - ...we really should keep a list so that some of these ordinances can be changed. It is really absurd when all the authorities say that you need an 8 foot fence to keep deer out when we are only allowed to approve 6 without a variance. Attorney Barney—You could approve 8 with the variance. I think the theory there is and I think you can always argue where the line ought to be drawn whether it is 5 foot, 6 foot, 7 foot or 8 foot, but up to 6 feet visually is not horribly nasty, 10 feet, 12 foot is quite a sizable fence. Mr. Krantz—(not audible) Attorney Barney—Yeah. I know. That is what this is for. This applies to fences across the board. It could be a decorative fence or a... Mr. Frost—I'm not sure that people had the problem with the deer now years ago and then those fences,particularly stockade fences which normally come stock at 6 feet high anyhow at standard height. Mr. Krantz—I think that is something that should be considered. Chairperson Sigel—The other issue with a fence, too, is I mean it doesn't specify what kind of a fence you can put up. If someone comes and proposes and 8 foot fence, as they 40 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES have done of open mesh, the board may be more inclined to grant that than if someone came in with a more than 8 foot high picket fence or stockade. Mr. Matthews —There is not much of a visual impact with the two feet more of a 6 feet fence. I don't see that. Chairperson Sigel—I would tend to agree in the case of a mesh wire. Mr. Matthews —Isn't that what they are talking about? Chairperson Sigel—Yes. Mr. Matthews —I'm certainly not an expert on how high deer can jump. Is there a possibility of putting an extension on a 6 foot fence and that being agreeable? Can you do that? If that was my property I couldn't cheat and put barbwire at 7 foot so that when a deer hits it he breaks his neck and doesn't come back? Mr. Frost—I would cite you for a violation. Chairperson Sigel—You would go to jail. Mr. Matthews —I would go to jail for breaking his neck or putting up the 7 foot? Chairperson Sigel—Both. Mr. Matthews —Both? Attorney Barney—Not for breaking his neck. Chairperson Sigel—Just the fence. Attorney Barney—Now if I jumped up and broke my neck then... Mr. Frost—I've had people place a stockade fence and they've got a two foot space from the ground surface to the bottom of the fence. I don't like doing it, but I got to follow what the law says. It would be in violation. Attorney Barney—If I look at this, I'm getting two different stories here from these pictures that you have brought in, in terms of dimensions. The plot plan that you have here you show the back line of your market area as being almost equal to the back line of the existing house. Do you follow what I am saying? Mr. Roswech—Yes. 41 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Attorney Barney—On the picture or the page with the picture on it, the market garden is shown. Is that the same size market garden because it is shown there as extending somewhat behind or beyond what would be the rear line of the house. Mr. Roswech—The picture that you are showing there is not to scale. It is more conceptual of the general location being that based on your view the front right corner. As far as where it hits exactly at the back of the house, there is five feet plus or minus. Its hard to tell. Attorney Barney—So I guess what I was leading up to is even in the worse scenario you were to be in compliance with our law to make to your backyard it would effectively would mean moving the garden back 100 feet. Mr. Roswech—Right. Right now, if I may address some of the difficulties, and if I just may say thank you for coming out and expressing some of your concerns. It is nice to meet you. In the area that it is located now, as I mentioned, about half of what was there was all cleared at one point and then the previous owner had maintained part of it as a garden during some periods of time and then gradually, returning to forests, thing were encroaching in that area. So it has been maintained as a garden at some point. Now in the area behind that, as shown on the plot plan that you are referencing, it is a treed area that may have been in agriculture 25 or more years ago before the area became a subdivision, but it is a downsloping, northsloping part of the property that does tail off and that does create some issues as far as temperature and soil warming though as far as locating a garden way back there. Even if we were able to clear trees and work on developing the soil to be productive, which would take some time as well and by some time I mean some years, but even if we were able to do that it is still going to be a fairly cold slope being north facing. I'm sure you are familiar with the north facing slopes here, hang on to snow much longer. We are familiar with Ithaca. we have lived here for 8 years previous to moving to California and then back. Attorney Barney—And you came back? Mr. Roswech—Would you believe it was too hot? These are the hardest months and as far as viewscape, we are certainly aware and just like we are concerned about our viewscape as any other as well as our neighbors and it will be an area that is maintained in agricultural production. I mean we are going to be growing things. There are going to be plants growing, flowers growing. Attorney Barney—I don't think the concern I heard was so much with the agricultural use. I think it is putting a 48 by 21 foot structure right squarely across the street from these folks' front yard. Mr. Krantz—They are not going to see the flowers and the plants and the trees. They are just going to see the canvas. 42 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Roswech—Not to make light of it. I understand. Its also part of the agricultural roots of the area. It does abut farmland. I mean there is... Attorney Barney—Except this is in a residential subdivision. It may back up on an ag zone, but it has been a longstanding residential subdivision so what you are in effect saying is lets move the agricultural zone up another 300 feet to front on Drew Road. Well the people around it didn't buy it with the expectation they were going to have farms right across the street from them. Which way is this building to be oriented? This greenhouse? Mr. Roswech—It is going to be orientated in east/west direction parallel to the road. Mr. Matthews —So they will see the longer side. Female applicant- There also is the factor that the greenhouse would be moved at times and so there would be periods of time that there would be vegetables and flowers growing in the front portion. it would not always be a mass, white object that would be viewed from the road. Mr. Roswech—Part of the concern with the location and the shading in the area, some we had influence on and some we don't, but just to give you some sense, during getting towards the winter months, getting towards late fall and early spring, the difference in sunlight between the front half of that garden and the back half there is maybe...4-6 hours of sun may be diffuse or direct. Sun in that front part of that garden whereas the back part is maybe going to see one or one and a half, which has to do with just the angle of the sun and the natural vegetation in the area. Chairperson Sigel—Sir, if you have a quick comment? Mr. Solat—This it the first time that I have heard the actual size of the greenhouse. It was not mentioned in any of the materials that I ever saw. Its 48 by 24? Attorney Barney—21 by 48. Mr. Solat—21 by 48? That's larger than my house. Attorney Barney—By 11. Mr. Solat—That's larger than my house. So you are talking about a structure that is larger than my house being put across the road with 48 feet of glass facing towards me. Attorney Barney—We are aware of that. Mr. Solat—For 13 years I worked for agriculture engineering at Cornell and I did solar work. For growing plants, fine, but don't buy a water heater or anything like that. that was back. You are talking about that much surface area. Reflection is going to be a 43 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES problem in my house. That sits directly. The sun comes over here. I am not going to be able to look out the front windows at certain times when the sun angles right. Mr. Roswech—I can just clarify that. it is not going to be glass. Its not very reflective at all,just to address your concern with reflection. Mr. Solat—But still, the size of the structure now is really concerning me and I had not been informed of that. first of all, the sign said a fence higher than 6 feet and a building/greenhouse. Now you are telling me that it is 21 by 48? That is larger than their house. That is larger than my house. Which means in those pictures that you are looking at right there 48 feet wide is going to go between both of those hedgerows. Mr. Roswech—Actually it would split it in about half. It is about 90 feet just to the other side. Mr. Solat—Yes. Ninety feet up to the hedgerow. Also, they will not see that because it is in the side yard. Their front and back view is going to remain the same. They are going to have the same front view. They are going to have the same back view and there is a hedgerow between their house and where this greenhouse is going to go. And in the summertime when it all grows up, you are not going to see it. it is like a green wall because I have one in my yard. You can't see through it. so they won't even see it in the summer. Chairperson Sigel—I think the board is sympathetic to your concerns. Mr. Smith—Kirk, I was just going to mention one thing. If you look at the actual dimensions of the lot, except for about 15 feet if they have 300 feet of width, 15 more feet they would be able to put a second house there and a subdivision could take place and instead of a greenhouse you could have a house there with a 15 foot variance. Chairperson Sigel—Now did you say with a septic? Mr. Solat—I had to have mine replaced a couple of years ago and there is no way, we are talking about that I had to have one of those above ground things because of the new Tompkins County proposal to New York State rules and the perk tests for up in that area. None of that land will pass. That is why everybody has over an acre and a half of land for the original perk tests. That is why all the lots are so big and why it is so roomy and everything up there. Unless you are planning on sewer and water for us. Chairperson Sigel—Okay at this time I will close the public hearing. Any questions, comments? Mr. Krantz —I think what you are trying to do is very admirable, but to put virtuously a 48 foot long, 11 foot high wall in front of somebody's house, I certainly don't think you should be able to do that. that is really what it is. 44 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Roswech—Okay. I think that is a bit of an exaggeration based on what may be in front of that. I mean there are going to be things growing and ... Attorney Barney—If you put it in the back yard there would be things in front of it assuredly. you are showing us coming up right literally to the road fronts. At least at some period of time it is very possible to have it located literally right on the edge of the roadway. Mr. Frost—It looks like the board is not going to grant you the variance. What you may want to do is reconsider. You ask for an adjournment, reconsider your plans and possibly be coming back here just for the 8 foot fence rather than have it all denied and you may want to consider that, coming back with something maybe different or working out something with the greenhouse and just be seeking a variance for the fence. That is up to you to do. Chairperson Sigel—So the fence could be just 30 foot setback from the front, correct? Attorney Barney—Right. And 40 foot from the side. Mr. Ellsworth—30 from the front. Chairperson Sigel—The greenhouse would have to be in the rear yard. Attorney Barney—Right. Chairperson Sigel—Okay. Mr. Roswech—Just so I can be clear also. There was some mention whether a greenhouse is considered a temporary structure or an accessory building. is there a clear determination on that? particularly, not only is it a greenhouse, but it is a moveable structure. Mr. Frost—I don't think our zoning ordinance defines temporary and accessory structures in accessory structure. I don't think it defines whether it is there for 3 months or 10 months. Now we have had people come to our board asking to place a structure somewhere for a temporary period of time and then it disappears from the property. Chairperson Sigel—I mean if you were putting up a tent for a party, you know, that would be for a few days. I suspect that you would have no problem doing that, but something that is on the property 12 months of the year and in one particular location 9 months, I don't see how that can be considered anything but an accessory building. Mr. Roswech—Okay. I just wanted to have some understanding. Attorney Barney—A building is defined as a structure having a roof, which presumably this would have, supported by columns or by walls and intended for shelter, housing, 45 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES protection or enclosure of persons, animals, or property. So I think a greenhouse would qualify as a building and therefore would not be permissive in the front yard absent of granting a variance. I'm wondering if you can't sit down and look at your plot plan and look at the acreage that you have in the back and see if there is someway you can salvage part of this area that you have used before, but perhaps set it up in a way that your greenhouse would never have to be located closer to the road than the back line of the existing house. In other words that you wouldn't need a variance for the greenhouse and that would not prevent you from having the garden somewhat to the front of it if you wanted to and even your 8 foot fence if you took it 30 feet back from the road. You would probably still need a variance for the fence on the side yard, but in looking at these pictures I understand where the board is coming from. Seeing what Mr. and Mrs. Solat would be seeing is not a comfortable thought. Mr. Roswech—I guess that is a matter of opinion. Chairperson Sigel—As Mr. Barney suggested, I mean he sort of expressed my view pretty clearly. The one variance that I might consider would be the fence from the side yard line being closer than 40 feet. But I think 30 feet from the front for the fence is perfectly reasonable. I'm not really inclined to vote for a variance to bring the fence closer than 30 feet to the front. The greenhouse, especially one anywhere near the size, I'm not really inclined to vote for anything that would be a variance. I think it is reasonable to have that in the rear yard. Mr. Roswech—Well, if at this time if we can request the adjournment as perhaps suggested by Mr. Frost and then we could probably reconsider what maybe our option are. Female applicant—I just wonder if when we go back and look at our plot plan if at...one time you had asked a question about the orientation of the greenhouse and I wonder if it were oriented in the north/south direction if that would make a difference in your willingness to consider its location on the property. Chairperson Sigel—I don't think it would have much influence on my decision personally. I don't know about the other board members. My feeling is for any structure really and certainly for one of that size, that you know, what is permitted by law is reasonable in this case, that it be in the rear yard. I mean if your house was very far back on the lot, if there were other extenuating circumstances, then I could see that being more reasonable, but you have a lot of area that is the rear yard where this could be placed. I realize that it is not as convenient. Mr. Roswech—It is not inconvenient. It would be a significant hardship to try to develop. Chairperson Sigel—Well, see the point is this is a residential zone. It is not an ag zone. So we are trying to balance the primary use of the zone versus your desire to do some 46 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES agriculture on it. For me, at least the balance is to come down on the side of residential use. Mr. Frost—It doesn't sound like you are going to get what you want so I think you need to rethink this. Mr. Ellsworth—Not that this is going to...tonight, but if the fence gets moved back, so then it is going to be 25 feet beyond the rear line of the house. Attorney Barney—The front fence just has to go back 30 feet. It would be in front of the... Mr. Ellsworth—The rear could go back. Mr. Ellsworth—If the greenhouse starts at the back end of the house, in other words, they could still fit it within the fence. Attorney Barney—That assumes they have to have the greenhouse everywhere in this area that they are talking about making a garden because if you can make the garden it seems the garden could come up to within 30 feet of the front of the property line. It would be perfectly permitted. Its just placing the greenhouse in that area that I think would quite frankly cause me problems if I were looking across the street. Mr. Ellsworth—But the rear yard starts at the rear line of the house? Attorney Barney—Yes. Mr. Frost—I would be willing to meet you up there, talk about ways where you could fall into compliance. Mr. Roswech—Great. Appreciate that. Chairperson Sigel—I will... Attorney Barney—Why don't you adjourn the matter for up to 6 weeks? What kind of timeframe are you thinking of? Mr. Roswech—We were hoping to get a jumpstart on the encroaching season so we would like to be able... Attorney Barney—Why don't we adjourn it until next month's meeting with the understanding that the applicant may modify their application. If you force a vote on the matter, to reverse that vote actually requires a super-majority. So not only have you lost once, you have a bigger hurdle to come over the next time. you are better off withdrawing and starting fresh then getting a negative vote. 47 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MARCH 21, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Roswech—Great. Thank you. Chairperson Sigel—So in the appeal of Todd Roswech and Melissa Anthony, I will move to adjourn the appeal until next month's meeting and if the applicant does not return to next month's meeting then the application will be considered... Attorney Barney—Because of the applicant's not preparing. Its not because we can't fit them in. that's not their fault. Chairperson Sigel—Okay. Then it would be considered withdrawn. Mr. Krantz—Second. Chairperson Sigel—All in favor? Board—Aye. ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2005- 017: Todd Roswech and Melisa Anthony, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 28.-1-34.29 MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Ronald Krantz. RESOLVED that this Board adjourn the appeal until next month's meeting, and if the applicant does not return to next month's meeting, then the application will be considered withdrawn. The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows: AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Krantz, Niefer, Matthews NAYS: NONE The MOTION was declared to be carried unanimously. Attorney Barney—Put in there John that the applicant agreed to that. That it was with their consent. Thanks. Chairperson Sigel—Thanks. Sorry we couldn't accommodate you tonight. Chairperson Sigel adjourned the meeting at 9:25 p.m. Kirk Sigel, Chairperson John Coakley, Deputy Town Clerk 48