HomeMy WebLinkAbout2007-12-04 - PB 1
TOWN OF ULYSSES
PLANNING BOARD
12/04/07
Approved 12/18/07
Present : Planning Board Members : David Kerness , David Means, Rod Porter,
Rebecca Schneider, Darien Simon, John Wertis, Deputy Supervisor Dick Coogan.
Absent: Ken Zeserson,
Applicants : Michael and Melinda Cirri, Andy Sciarabba
Ms . Kerness stated the objective of today' s meeting is to put together a set of questions
that need to be answered by different people. Then can then be addressed as the go along.
What he is looking at is the final Planning Board vote for January 15th that should include
the complete package including provisions for the DD as well as the SEQR. This way
when it is given to the Town Board they can "run" with it.
Ms . Simon asked if this was a tentative schedule he had discussed with Mr. Zeserson.
Mr. Kerness stated he had discussed this with Mr. Zeserson and Mr. Coogan they had felt
this was a workable schedule. They would vote on January 15th if passed it would be
reviewed by the Town Board on February 12th, a Public Hearing scheduled for February
19th . The final Town Board vote could be scheduled for March 11th
Ms . Simon stated this sounded like a little more time for the Planning Board to get the
things done they need to .
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Mr. Kerness stated he renamed DD5 to DDSA to keep things straight, they thought they
only needed a Part 1 SEQR for DDSA . The Cirri project would be DD11 . The SEQR for
that would require Part 1 and Part 2 .
Mr. Coogan stated Part 1 is completed by the applicant, the Board will complete Part 2
for the Mini Golf project, he would double check with Mr. Rachun tomorrow regarding
completing this .
Mr. Kerness stated regarding the Kline DDSA they need the metes and boundaries .
Mr. Coogan stated Mr. May would provide that information, all he would have to do is
get the original development district.
Mr. Kerness stated he suggests an audit be done of DDSA to see if they are meeting the
current provisions . He asked if Mr. Wertis would be willing to do this would Mr. Rachun.
Mr. Wertis stated he would be willing to do this .
Mr. Kerness stated what he has seen and heard is when they go to the public meeting they
can state they have had an audit done and taken legal action to rectify any problems .
Ms . Schneider asked why they would not need another survey.
Mr. Coogan stated they have a survey done based on the prior zoning. If it is changed
then they would need to obtain a new survey.
Mr. Kerness asked if there were any questions .
Ms . Simon asked if everyone had obtained the email from Marietta and Mr. Rachun,
she stated she thought they needed to review what he submitted and review what they
could get done tonight. Whatever they need from others they could collect foi the
December 18th meeting. She did not see much difference in the two , Mr. Rachun is
approaching it as a Planning Board and Marietta is approaching it as the legal sequence.
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She stated thei boundaries for DD5A should be completed, she verified that as of this
point the legal aspects of the use have not changed . The audit will confirm if there are
legal aspects to consider.
Mr. Kerness stated it sounded like they could close the book on DD5A and proceed to
DD11 .
Mr. Cirri asked if the property line does not match what they have for DD5A would this
create a problem .
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Mr. Coogan stated it would be compared if they do not match then a new survey would
be required.
Ms . Kerness Verified that as long as the only change is going back to the original use and
dimensions it could be written from that.
Mr. Coogan confirmed as long as the boundaries, uses all stay as indicated in the prior
zoning it will be acceptable .
Ms . Simon stated they could review the list provided by Mr. Rachun. They reviewed the
list of submitted material .
Mr. Kerness stated then no , they have the survey map , he indicated the zoning law
section 16 . 3 . 5 ib ; it is a straightforward description of the property.
Mr. Sciarabbalistated he could provide the information, he had supplied what Mr. Rachun
asked but reviewed what Mr. Kerness indicated and will get this for the next meeting .
Mr. Kerness stated Mr. Cirri has indicated he would like approval for the Go-Kart and
Batting cages he feels they need more details on these plans . Once they put the projects in
they cannot take them out .
Mr. Cirri stated it was his understanding that the projects could be approved but no LL
construction could be done until Site Plan Review was done on each project.
Mr. Kerness stated this does not have any meat, if they require the lighting, noise etc .
now it gives them more definition. When they go to the public hearing this could also be
addressed to have been dealt with beforehand, i . e . he would like to know what go kart
system they are going to buy.
Mr. Cirri stated that would be 5 years down the road, he has not researched all of that.
Mr. Kerness stated he could appreciate that however he could get specifications on what
is currently available with the decibel levels they produce . He could then provide the
noise level of 110 or 20 go karts running on the track. This would allow them to have
design standards in place for this project.
Mr. Means stated it could be difficult projecting 5 years ahead, but usually technology
gets better so they may run more efficiently.
Ms . Schneider 'stated in theory they would run more efficiently so that would give us
some working Information to go on.
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Mr. Kerness stated he wrote up a db requirement that is more stringent than our design
standards . He would hate to put it in then find out they are 1 point higher with the go
karts .
Mr. Wertis asked if there is a noise standard and the project goes above it then he cannot
do it.
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Mr. Coogan stated they need to be careful and remember that a development district has
no standards, they can reference town wide the standard is such and this applies to this
district.
Mr. Wertis stated that referencing Regional Access , they were nice guys and agreed to
build the barrier, but in all truth he would need a demo to understand what these levels
are .
r Ms . Schneider stated there are associated levels . The 146 db is a jet engine idling, there
are tables that they could use for reference, she stated she would get this .
Mr. Kerness asked Mr. Cirri if they do not get this approval would this cancel the project.
Mr. Cirri stated it probably would, they do not want to have to go through this process
each time they want to expand. It is quite a lengthy process, they are not asking for a
blanket approval with the requirements . If it is part of the development district they are
not objecting to additional constraints on approval . They are asking so they do not have
to go through development districts . He reviewed the zoning and it says amendments
have been done, yet there is not a system to amend .
Mr. Coogan stated they were amended as part of the zoning revisions . The Town Board
could add an amendment to the zoning to allow this process next year, but as of this point
it is not in place.
Mr. Kerness stated they are in the situation that they are approving projects that they have
no specifications for.
Mr. Cirri stated he understands this but he would prefer they write the approvals, but
have it in there with expanded requirements, conditions but get it approved.
Ms . Simon stated rather than getting bogged down they continue the process .
Mr. Kerness stated he is concerned with lighting, they do not have any specifics related to
the lighting in the future areas .
Mr. Porter asked if it would make sense to form the DD around the family entertainment
concept that would allow the family entertainment process that would allow go kart,
batting cages dependent on a review and approval process we spell out.
Mr. Coogan stated they are creating a district, they have to develop everything they think
they will need. This will include lighting, buffers , stormwater etc . they can include the
allowed uses, batting cages, go karts , mini golf course with Site Plan approval . They set it
up exactly as a new zone would be.
Ms . Schneider asked if during Site Plan review process if there were pollutants from
stormwater or noise/lighting levels cannot be reduced then during site plan they would
have to deny if these levels cannot be maintained .
Mr. Coogan reiterated they need to keep in mind what a development district is . It
smacks of spot zoning, but it allows a municipality to have the flexibility to include
things, it gives them a mechanism to put in something that wasn ' t planned in a place that
wasn ' t thought of. They do not want the development district to be so easy to do that it
becomes unwieldy, while you have flexibility it becomes punitive.
Ms . Schneider stated maybe that is the key, that if they cannot do this then they need to
change the development district.
Mr. Kerness he is going to ask the applicants for information to be available on the 18th,
if they come back on the 18th and state it is too hard to do he would understand . He wants
to know the length, size and type of go karts they are anticipating to purchase . He also
wants the specifications related to the go karts especially noise. He stated they can come
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back and say it is too heard, it is too far into the future, otherwise he does not know how
to deal with this .
Ms . Simon stated they are talking about an area that the zoning law that generally applies
does not apply to a development district. She wondered if they could describe as meeting
the zoning law except they allow this and do not allow that, in specific areas they could
specify more stringent standards . This way they would use the standard zoning except in
the cases where they feel higher standards should be met. This would allow them to focus
on the areas they feel need to be changed. 41.
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Mr. Coogan stated they could keep the noise ordinance the same, they really want to keep IL
the development district self contained. They could reference the standards and focus on
what is different.
Ms . Simon stated lighting and noises are issues, she asked if there were any other items
that were area of concern for the other members .
Mr. Kerness stated when he looked at the DD and reviewed 16 . 3 . 5 C . District
specifications 11e noted they could reference standards , he recommended 17 . 2 . 1 Yard
Size, 17 . 2 . 2 Noise, 17 . 2 . 3 Odor, 17 . 3 is Parking, 17 . 4 Standard Sign, 17 . 5 Lighting.
He would recommend all of these be included in the development district specifications .
Ms . Simon stated Mr. Rachun had included all of these as well as buffers in his list of
reviews to be done .
Mr. Cirri stated during the last meeting it was requested they write what should be
included in the specifications, he asked if the members had received this .
The members acknowledged they had been given them via their mailboxes .
Mr. Cirri referenced the section of Design Specifications. They came up with an area for �I
parking, the items they were asked for were presented on how they thought it should be
written.
Mr. Sciarabba asked what setbacks they would be required to adhere to . He noted thus far
they can meet most of the listed ones in the zoning, but would like to know specifically
what to meet.
Mr. Kerness noted that in the standard 17 . 2 . 2 he would recommend changes, the current
law states 90 db from 7 a.m. to 11 p .m. , he would suggest it change to 80 db from 10 a. m .
to 11 p .m . he copied their operating hours as a guide. It states 55 db from 11 p . m . to 7
a. m. ; he was unsure what to put in there.
Mr. Cirri noted if the development district limits their hours and they cannot be open
during those hours it would not matter what the decibel level is .
Mr. Kerness stated he is not trying to limit their hours he just took their operating hours.
But he does not believe anyone would want to hear a go kart at 7 a.m .
Ms . Schneider stated they do not know a lot about decibel levels, could the applicants
provide a good summary.
Mr. Kerness stated a meter would be helpful as well .
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Mr. Coogan stated he thought they had one, but it may have been Mr. Austic ' s .
Ms . Carlisle Peck stated Regional Access had purchased one for their use during their site
plan process .
Mr. Kerness asked if they could purchase one.
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Ms . Schneider stated this is the second time this issue has come up , she wondered if this
could be put in the budget as this is an item that should be enforced.
Mr. Coogan stated it would not be enforced by Mr. Rachun it would be by the police.
Ms . Schneider stated but it would have to be documented and Mr. Rachun should have
the tools he needs to document this .
Mr. Kerness stated it would be easier for them and everyone else if the applicant could
get the design gn specifications .
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Mr. Cirri stated he just does not be required to install an item 5 years down the road.
Ms . Simon stated he could use what is available today, and they could reference that this
is the acceptable level . They could not go over these levels but it would give them a
standard to maintain.
Mr. Kerness stated it would be helpful to have this information before the public hearing.
One friend stated he was surprised at having electric karts , he commented they do not
make as much noise . These are items they will have to address at the public hearing and
having it addressed beforehand will eliminate problems later.
Mr. Cirri commented they do not make as much noise but they accelerate quicker.
Ms . Schneider stated they could continue to get through the rest of the design standards .
They need to discuss lighting, odors, and setbacks .
Mr. Sciarabba stated they had done a photometric for the mini golf', they would presume
it would be the same for the go kart track. He asked if they would need the same for the
go kart track.
Mr. Kerness stated they would.
Mr. Cirri stated again the design is a place holder, they do not have any real idea of how
it would be laid out . It is going too far to approve the track itself
Mr. Kerness stated once they approve a track it is hard to regulate it. He would like the
attorney to advise them if and how they could restrict this . He was advised that the site
plan is not a clean way to approve these .
Mr. Sciarabba stated if they give enough detail with photometrics and maps as a
placeholder, the DD is approved with the future phase . But they would have to meet the
ordinances and additional standards before they could get a building permit.
Mr. Coogan stated whatever zoning changes happen they DD still has to maintain the
design standards specified. That is why it is important to have all of the standards and
requirements detailed in the development district.
Mr. Means stated he agreed it would have to be provided from the beginning.
Mr. Sciarabba stated they are trying to not have to spend a lot of money designing a plan
that would probably change in 5 years .
Mr. Coogan stated site plan review is a give and take process between the applicant and
the Board. It is difficult for the Board to refuse site plan review unless something really
big is being done . They have less control during site plan, the more they can control
during the development district creation will benefit everyone . During site plan if the
Board stated they would like something and the applicant states they do not like the way
it mitigates we aren ' t doing it . It would be difficult to coordinate this .
Ms . Simon stated that for noise and lighting they need more information for the next
meeting then they can start to write design standards .
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Mr. Coogan stated do not lock themselves in, they may specify halogen lamps, and the
technology may advance to offer a better alternative .
Ms . Simon stated she understands that she was thinking it would be they could not
exceed beyond the property and allowable amounts but not specify actual types of
lighting.
Mr. Cirri asked if that would not be referring back to the existing zoning law.
Ms . Simon stated not necessarily, they may require different standards . They would
presumably have more children; they may want more for the safety of the kids . She is
thinking they would have minimums and maximums .
Mr. Sciarabba stated if they are required to have this for the next meeting they would
need to know the standards to draft the plans .
Ms . Simon stated they could target the existing and see if it meets their requirements .
They reviewed the parking areas and decided that the recreational and civic complexes
would be a good standard, thus suggested they use Retail areas and Shopping Centers .
The walkways lwere a little off, but she thought they would have a better idea of what
they need to make the areas safe for people.
Mr. Kerness asked for clarification on the lighting standards in the zoning.
Ms . Simon staged the listed amounts are minimums there are no maximums .
Mr. Means asked if their engineers could put together a plan using the standards in the
zoning.
Mr. Cirri stated the plan they have was put together by the engineer using the zoning 4TI
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Mr. Means asked if this is in conflict with their standards .
Mr. Sciarabba stated the photometric they did actually exceeds the current standard.
Mr. Wertis noted that the technical problem has been that the map indicates lumens and
the standard is in footcandles .
Mr. Sciarabba stated the numbers on the photometric are in footcandles .
Mr. Wertis referenced various numbers on the photometric plan for clarification.
Mr. Sciarabba explained the numbers to the members .
Ms . Simon asked Mr. Kerness if he was satisfied with what they have for phase 1 and if
he would be satisfied with a similar plan for phase 2 .
Mr. Kerness stated he does not need to see the detailed plan but is not sure if they are
meeting the standards . He wanted to make sure they could still mitigate the plan, i . e . if
they want to change the height of the poles around the batting cages .
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Mr. Simon clarified that he would agree that they bring a plan for phase 2 without as
much detail.
Mr. Kerness stated that would be fine .
Mr. Wertis stated they are making a judgment the zoning law is for safety sakes, their
concern is just the opposite which could be termed irritation factor.
Mr. Kerness stated that is something they would have to look at.
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Mr. Coogan stated they need to remember where this is going, they can require buffers,
and they will have homes around the area.
Ms . Simon noted there is a buffer on the North side .
Mr. Porter stated if they are looking for buffers wouldn ' t they have to have a plan for
buffers .
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Ms . Simon stated they would need the plan for lighting before they can review for the
need to have buffers in specific areas .
Mr. Porter stated they should be asked to design buffers as they are drafting their lighting
plan to eliminate them having to come back with another plan.
Mr. Sciarabba stated that would be a good idea. He stated there is a natural tree line on a
lot of the perimeter.
Mr. Coogan reminded the members there are some residences in this area.
Mr. Wertis stated there are two areas which the buffers will deal with they are spillage
and glare which buffers will eliminate . This can be difficult to deal with because you
have to visualize the problems .
Mr. Cirri stated there are three acres to the South that are not being developed .
Mr. Means stated they have had complaints regarding the dusk to dawn lights .
Mr. Porter stated they need to visualize driving down the wall the buffers will help absorb
this .
Mr. Sciarabba stated he is having difficulty visualizing 30 feet buffers . They already have
a line of trees .
Mr. Porter stated they may have what they need; they need to review and map these
areas .
Mr. Cirri stated there are established tree lines on two sides of their properties .
Mr. Wertis asked where the residences they have to deal with are on the property.
Mr. Cirri indicated on the map the location of the properties .
Mr. Porter asked where the residence that is placed far back near this property is
compared to the map .
Mr. Cirri indicated the area and stated he really had not directed a lot of attention to this
area.
Mr. Porter stated evergreen trees are known to absorb a lot of light, not that they have to
be 30 feet high, but he is concerned with this residence and people driving being
distracted by the lighting. He asked the applicants to review and address this in their plan.
Ms . Simon stated that after reviewing the map she is not seeing a lot of area that would
need buffers .
Mr. Kerness stated the house on the hill would really see a lot of this development .
Mr. Porter agreed this would be overlooking this project .
Mr. Wertis asked if the retention plan would remove some of this tree line .
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Mr. Sciarabba 'stated some of it would but to the North is Stover Lumber who would not
necessarily want a buffer at 10 or 11 p .m.
Ms . Simon asked if the applicants understand what the Board is looking for regarding
noise, odors , lighting and buffers .
Mr. Wertis asked in the standards they are writing would there be time standards .
Ms . Simon stated there would .
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Mr. Coogan noted they would want security lighting, the lights could be off at 11 p .m.
however they should specify if they would want security lighting left on after this time.
Ms . Simon asked if they could move onto yards 17 . 2 . 1 .
Mr. Wertis noted none of the other development districts have any reference to yards .
Ms . Simon stated it does reference landscaping.
Mr. Kerness noted they should meet the standard in 17 . 2 . 1 . There are not any number
setbacks .
Mr. Sciarabba stated it would be beneficial to have a standard.
Mr. Coogan agreed they have a lot of property and it would be good to have setbacks
designated.
Mr. Sciarabba noted the light industrial area seemed to be a workable option with their
plan.
Mr. Wertis stated they could do that or use their plans and designate members .
Mr. Means asked how far back the parking lot was .
Mr. Sciarabbaj stated it is 67 feet back.
Mr. Means noted it would not be a problem to widen this .
Mr. Cirri stated they developed the plan to allow for future growth.
The members agreed they would use the numbers for the light industrial areas for the
setback requirements .
Mr. Coogan stated another item are the stream/creek setbacks, this property does not have
any streams oi: creeks .
Mr. Sciarabba stated for clarification this property goes all the way back to the property
line, he wanted to know if the boundary would be to the property line or the development
district.
Mr. Wertis stated and the members agreed it would only be the development district
boundaries .
Ms . Simon asked if there were any other items in yards . The members stated there was
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not, she reviewed Mr. Rachun ' s list and noted odors would be next.
Mr. Kerness stated they need to review 17 . 3 to see if they meet the standard if not draft
an alternative .
Mr. Wertis stated it had run through his mind that there is an agricultural field behind
them, what would happen if someone spread manure.
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Mr. Cirri stated they own the field and will not let this happen. They are guessing this
would be the field they use for their corn maze.
Ms . Simon stated the next area is parking.
Mr. Wertis asked how they developed their parking plan.
Mr. Cirri stated they contacted various mini golf course owners as well as the designer of
the course the equation they used was two cars per hole . They would have 18 holes but
they chose to go above knowing the corn maze and other phases would be expanded .
They also left room on the property to expand the parking areas .
Mr. Porter stated they would have 48 spaces for phase 1 and how many would they add
for phase 2 .
Mr. Cirri stated they would like to add 12 more spaces .
Mr. Kerness asked if they could provide an equation for the additional spaces in their
plans similar to phase 1 .
Mr. Cirri stated they would do that .
Mr. Sciarabba stated that is difficult as there is no standard that if you add these you
would need this, if you add a batting cage add this .
Mr. Cirri agreed if they use the formula they would need 100 some spaces, but then they
would end up with as this Board mentioned a few weeks ago an ocean of pavement
similar to Palmer ' s Pharmacy, lots of asphalt with few cars in the lot.
Mr. Means stated the expansion idea is good, he asked if they could expand the parking
to the South as well .
Mr. Cirri stated they could expand to the South as well as the East . There are 3 acres to
the South that are being undeveloped .
Mr. Coogan stated what they need to do is if everything maxes out they would need this
number of spaces .
Mr. Porter agreed as they do not want to have cars parking on the road.
Mr. Kerness stated they understand but if they could get a base they feel comfortable with
they can work from there .
Mr. Wertis stated he read Mr. Cirri had questions about the trees being needed.
He recalled the applicant wanted to reduce the number of trees so the mini golf is visible
from the road.
Mr. Cirri agreed the regulation requires 30 foot trees . He would like some that are smaller
they would like to plant some . They have two landscaped islands and the driveway has
plans for landscaping. But 9 30 foot trees seem excessive for this parking lot.
Mr. Wertis stated one item they do not have is an artist ' s rendition of looking North and
looking East, he realizes this is an additional expense . In order to come up with a decision
of no trees, some trees etc . they could use a diagram .
Mr. Means agreed without this it is hard to visualize but he does not see a problem
reducing the number of trees .
Mr. Kerness stated an item that would help them is if you look at 17 . 2 , 17 . 3 , 17 . 4 and
17 . 5 if you review the design standards and recommend what they would like to have it
would be beneficial .
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Mr. Cirri stated that is what they had started to do in his list.
Mr. Kerness stated he had not had a chance to review but thought that would go a long
way in helping them . If they could get that to them by the 18th it would very helpful .
Mr. Wertis stated if they could do it well before and get it in their mailboxes it would be
very helpful .
Mr. Cirri stated . he has Mr. Coogan ' s email and he could send it via email . �f
Ms . Simon asked if there was anything else, the next item is signs .
Mr. Coogan stated that has changed in the zoning, it was submitted and has been sent out
to be copied. It would not apply here as this is a development district.
Mr. Wertis stated it would be easier if they provided a standard.
Mr. Cirri stated he had a copy of the sign they would like . He distributed the
specifications of the sign they want.
Mr. Coogan stated they might want to review the Al , B1 District.
Mr. Kerness stated they should review 17 . 1 .
Mr. Wertis stated they wanted to see if this is outrageously different. It does not appear to
be to him.
Mr. Coogan stated the new business sign standard is 6 square feet . If you have four letters
you are okay or use a 1 x 6 foot sign .
Mr. Wertis stated they cannot use the LED flash screens . He asked on the map where this " 1
would be located.
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Mr. Cirri indicated near the driveway where this would be.
Mr. Wertis stated they should look for signs that are 8 x 3 .
Mr. Coogan stated the Shursave sign is comparable .
Mr. Cirri stated he would like to have the development district allow a sign this size.
Mr. Wertis asked if this is double sided sign.
Mr. Cirri stated it was .
Mr. Coogan stated the zoning requires no intermittent lighting. He and Mr. Rachun
decided a change beyond 30 seconds was not intermittent.
Ms . Simon asked if there was anything else needed for the applicant to draft and present
before the meeting or earlier if possible .
Mr. Wertis stated he really could not say without looking at signs that size .
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Ms . Simon stated they could say no larger than this specification. She asked if there was
anything else so they do not have to keep coming back.
Mr. Kerness and the other members agreed that at this point there is not but if there was
they could contact Mr. Coogan to inform the applicants .
Mr. Means asked with this timeline would they meet their schedule.
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Mr. Cirri stated it would be tight, once they get approval they would need to close on the
land so they could start building.
Mr. Kerness asked if Marietta would review this document .
Ms . Carlisle Peck asked Mr. Coogan the process to draft the development district.
Mr. Coogan stated the Planning Board would compile and draft the district with metes,
boundaries, design standards etc . It would be given to Marietta for final review and
editing. She would return to the Board for approval and this would go the Town Board .
Mr. Means stated the minutes of the November 13 `h meeting needed to be approved .
Mr. Wertis stated he had corrections to submit .
Mr. Means MADE the MOTION to accept the minutes of 11 / 13/07 with Mr. Wertis '
corrections, Mr. Kerness SECONDED the MOTION. The vote was taken, ALL IN
FAVOR- 11 / 13/07 minutes approved unanimously.
Ms . Simon adjourned the meeting at 9 : 10 p . m .
Respectfully submitted,
Robin Carlisle Peck
Secretary
12/ 12/07
Items needed for December 18`h
KLINE-DD5A
Mr. May-Development District boundaries indicated in prior zoning law .
CIRRI-DD11
Rebecca Schneider-Noise level tables , guides for reference .
Andy Sciarabba-development district draft to include legal boundaries, descriptions .
Michael Cirri-go kart and batting cage, design standards for future plans to include
lighting, noise, buffers .
Information regarding the go karts, tracks to be used-specifically noise levels .
Review Design Standards, prepare draft of what they feel would be acceptable .