HomeMy WebLinkAbout2004-02-24 - PB i
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1 STATE OF NEW YORK
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3 IN THE MATTER OF A PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING
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5 Re : TOWN OF ULYSSES DRAFT ZONING ORDINANCE
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9 PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING ;
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11 Held at Trumansburg High School , Trumansburg ,
12 ' New York , on the 24th day of February , 2 4
Y y , 00 ,
13 commencing at 7 : 04 PM .
14
REPORTED BY : PDQ COURT REPORTERS
15 1 MICHELE L . RICE , RPR
Notary Public
16 1 746 Route 41
Smithville Flats , New York 13841
17 ( 607 ) 863 - 4911
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APPEARANCES :
19 TOWN BOARD :
Supervisor Douglas Austic
20 i Councilwoman Roxanne Marino
Councilman Don Ellis
21 Councilman Lee Scott
Councilman Robert Weatherby
22
Town Clerk Marsha Georgia
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f PLANNING BOARD :
410 24 Chairman Richard Coogan
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1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We might as well
2 get started .
3 What we ' re going to do is Mr . Frantz
4 is going to give a brief in a brief synopsis
5 j of the Zoring Ordinance and I think maybe
6 most of you have seen it on the Internet or
7 have copies that you ' ve picked up at the
8 Town Hall or there are copies over there
9 ( indicating ) .
10 f TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : His
11 presentation is over there ( indicating ) .
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : His P resentation
13 is over there if you want a copy of that to
14 follow along with ( indicating ) .
15 So , I think since this is relatively
16 small group then we ' ll let George explain
17 the general purpose and the ideas behind the
18 Zoning Ordinance and then open it up to
19 questions and take your comments . We ' re not
20 here to try and figure out what ' s wrong or
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21 how it ' s wrong . We ' re just here to take
22 your comments to find out what you think
23 needs improving or what changes we might be
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24 1 able to make to this Ordinance .
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1 And we ' re having a stenographer take
2 ' notes , so if you want - - if you want to
3 , speak maybe you ' d be better off coming up a
4 little closer so she can be sure to get what
5 you ' re saying for the record .
6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : And maybe give
7 your name .
8 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : And give your
9 ! name .
10 With that , what ' s at s this all about ,
11 George ?
12 � GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . Way back when
13 i when we got started essentially my goal was
14 ( to write for the Town of Ulysses a Zoning
15 Ordinance that would help protect
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16 1 agricultural land ; help to channel
17 i development into areas of the Town , I would
18 II say intense - - more intensive residential ,
19 I industrial , commercial development into
20 areas of the Town closer to Route 96 in the
21 Village of Trumansburg ; provide adequate
22 land for any - - actually more than any
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23 I anticipated future residential or commercial
411 24 development ; put development that - - in
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1 i places where it would best utilize the
2 investment into the - - in the new water line
3 I up Route 96 to Jacksonville , okay ? That was
4 one goal .
5 Another goal was to provide really
6 clear definitions of the various terms that
7 are used in a Zoning Ordinance , and
8 i unfortunately many times they sort of forget
9 I to define certain terms so there ' s confusion
10 between residents , Code Enforcement
11 1 Officers , Zoning Officers , and sometimes
411 12 even on the various Town Boards . Not just
13 here in Ulysses but everywhere through New
14 York and Pennsylvania where I do my work .
15 Sort of hopefully lay out better
16 procedures for the Planning Board and Zoning
17 Board of Appeals . Again , sort of clarify
18 the situation so it ' s really easier for
19 everybody who has to go before the Boards ,
20 they know what they need to do , the Boards
21 � know what they need to do , okay ? And also
22 provide some standards so that in the future
23 the commercial development , the industrial
24 development , that occurs is well described
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1 and doesn ' t have major impacts on primarily
2 adjoining residential areas . Okay ?
3 + So , they were sort of the overall
4 goal , and what I came up with was , excuse
5 I me , a dozen or so new Zoning Districts . The
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6 Al Agricultural , which is - - if you look on
7 the maps is the yellow and covers most of
8 the Town ( indicating ) .
9 The next Zoning District , the orange
10 ( on the maps , is the Rural Residential Zoning
11 District ( indicating ) . It ' s Residential
410 12 District , it also allows Agriculture . It
13 has lot sizes of two acres . Okay ?
14 A Moderate Density Residential
15 District , which is the red on the map , and
16 you can see it ' s around the Village of
17 Trumansburg and down in the southwest - -
18 southeastern corner of the Town
19 ( indicating ) . The idea is that they would
20 ! be the areas where in the future we can
21 direct the more intensive residential
22 developments in the Town . The lot sizes
23 are - - minimum lot size is set at 32 , 000
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square feet , which is roughly three - quarters
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1 ' of an acre . Ckay ? And the idea is to have
2 people have major residential development
3 happen where there ' s either public water ,
4 municipal water , in some cases perhaps
5 municipal sewer , but at least in the future
6 ) there ' s also the potential for having
7 municipal water and municipal sewer in those
8 areas , okay ?
9 The next District , the Hamlet
10 District , is the purple on the map , and
11 essentially it ' s - - the large one is
12 { centered on Jacksonville and there ' s a
13 smaller one there centered on Waterburg ,
14 okay ( indicating ) ? And the zoning there
15 , allows a mix of retail and commercial
16 ( development - - excuse me , retail development
17 and residential development but more
p at
18 • densities you see in traditional Upstate New
19 York villages . You can have lot sizes as
20 small as 6 , 000 square feet if you have
21 public - - probably if you have municipal
22 water and some sort of - - you ' re not going
23 i to be able to do it with on lot septic but
24 I there ' s a potential perhaps for , you know ,
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1 larger developments that might have a
2 package treatment plant , or again at some
3 point in the future there may be the
4 possibility of having public or municipal
5 { sewer service in Jacksonville , okay ?
6 Let ' s see , what ' s the next one ?
7 STAN KOSKINEN : Are we going to get
8 a Wal - Mart in Jacksonville ?
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : I doubt it .
10 i STAN KOSKINEN : You said it ' s
11 I retail .
12 GEORGE FRANTZ : The two sort of
13 fI specialized Districts that I ' ve proposed is ,
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one , a Multiple Residence District , which
15 would allow apartment complexes subject to
16 site plan approval by the Planning Board and
17 also Town Board approval of the rezoning ,
18 okay ? And there ' s also some design
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19 guidelines standards I should say that any
20 applicant would have to meet before they got
21 Town approval , things like additional
22 setbacks , how you have to design the
23 parking , how large the buildings can be , how
411 24 I much of the lot can actually be developed
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1 for that type of housing .
2 And then the other sort of special
3 district is the Manufactured Home Park
4 District , which on the map you can see
5 � northwest of the Village the green area and
6 ± then there ' s the - - the mobile home park
7 there along Route 96 next to the old
8 Drive - Inn , okay ( indicating ) ? So , that
9 District sort of accommodates the two mobile
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10 home parks within the Town and again it
411 11 gives the Town a little more leverage if
12 they want to expand , there ' s standards there
13 too just like for the Multiple Residence
14 zone that the owners would have to meet .
15 Next is the Bl Business District , and
16 these are fairly hard to see on the map
17 because essentially what we ' ve done is we
18 have one here northwest - - on the northwest
19 corner of the Village and then the largest
20 one is actually down here ( indicating ) . We
21 already have Maguire , we ' ve got Shur Save ,
22 and the smaller businesses . Along the south
23 � side of 96 going down the highway we ' ve got
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where Bar Angus is , Stover Lumber , the auto
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1 ( repair shop ( indicating ) .
2 And we get into Jacksonville and
3 ; we ' ve got the area around Ulysses Square ,
4 continuing down Rascals and that small
5 commercial area , the old Spikes Barbecue
6 Restaurant . And again a little bit of area
7 ' on both sides of the highway there . And
8 then down Sleeping Bear , Paradise Cafe , the
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9 Honda motorcycle place ( indicating ) . Along
10 1 96 right now they ' re all - - there ' s retail
11 development in these areas , the idea is to
. 12 make the areas large enough so there ' s also
13 possibility for future expansion if the
14 1 market requires or allows it , I should say .
15
Other places , Taughannock Farms Inn ,
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16 the old Cuba Inn , an area north of it , the
17 � old motel down south of Craft Road , and of
18 j course the Glenwood Pines ( indicating ) .
19 KURT Mc MILLEN : What was the pink ?
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : This pink - -
21 actually these two pinks are actuall y
the
22 Multiple Resident Zones that we ' re
23 I establishing now . This is the True Haven
24 Apartments and this is the old motel in
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1 Jacksonville that is now essentially
2 I apartments ( indicating ) .
3 KURT Mc MILLEN : What is the
4 classification ?
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , it ' s pink on
6 this map , it ' s pink , yeah , it ' s the same .
7 , A VOICE : And you said it ' s what
8 classification , zoning classification ?
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . The problem
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10 is on the map it ' s showing a pink , on the
11 ( legend it ' s showing up this teal color , so
12 it ' s the RM Multiple Residence District ,
13 okay ? Sorry about that . Just noticed that .
14 The two pink areas , those are again
15 existing apartment complexes , small
16 !! apartment complexes that were proposing to
17 i just , you know , zone them the Multiple
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I Residence District . Okay ?
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Then two more . The Light Industrial
20 ; District , which would again allow light
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industry well defined in the Zoning
22 Ordinance . Essentially it ' s industry where
23 ! you in the businesses would fabricate
24 product , however the components , the raw
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1 materials , that would be very limited , i . e .
2 i they would be buying components from the
3 primary manufacturers or sources and then
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4 assembling the product on site . It ' s not
5 i like - - actually they ' re not even like that .
6 The old - fashioned plants where you had ,
7 let ' s say , a foundry to make the products
8 that would then be used in the manufacturing
9 process . What light industry is generally
10 defined as being is industry where all the
11 heavy - duty , dirty stuff is done elsewhere
12 and components are put
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13 j together on the site using really no more
14 than electric *_rotors , okay ? And the Light
15 1 Industry Districts will also allow office
16 ! and research type businesses also , okay ?
17 And again , we ' ve got here at the
18 south end of Town , we ' ve already had the old
19 Babcock facility , Ithaca Millwork in that
20 1 area , Alpine Machine Shop , plus again room
21 for expansion , room for new businesses to
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22 maybe come in and locate there , okay ?
23 And then up here , is this still
411 24 Agriculture ? Yeah , the Agriculture Complex
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1 here , the corner of Park Road and Route 96 ,
2 so two Light Industrial areas .
3 And then finally the last district is
4 in the dark green on the map , it ' s the Park
5 I and Recreation District , and it ' s like the
6 ; Rural Residential although it ' s intended to
7 I more recognize - - it ' s , as you can see ,
8 , including and adjacent to Taughannock Falls
9 j State Park and the Cayuga Nature Center ,
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10 okay ( indicating ) ?
ii So , that ' s the proposed zoning in a
12 nutshell . I think it ' s rather - - I could
13 f put you guys to sleep in another ten minutes
14 going through the District regulations in
15 detail but I think , you know , I ' ve pretty
16 I well covered . I think the best thing to do
17 is open it up to questions , you know , see
18 what your concerns are .
19 Actually , how many people have
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20 I actually read the Zoning Ordinance ?
21 ( Show of hands )
22 ! GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . That ' s what I
23 sort of figured . It ' s , you know , it ' s - - I
24 don ' t think it would qualify as - - it ' s not
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1 going to make the New York Times
2 Bestseller ' s List but as Zoning Ordinances
3 � go though it ' s , I think from what I hear ,
4 1 it ' s been pretty well read , so , but . . .
5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Kurt , why don ' t
6 J you - - I think the stenographer needs to
7 hear you , why don ' t you just come up front .
8 A VOICE : Give us your name .
9 i KURT DUNNAM : This is quick and
10 brief . Kurt Dunnam , D - U - N - N - A - M . I live
11 over on Perry City Road .
411 12 i The two things that I had brought up
13 I didn ' t see in the Ordinance and in fact I
14 did see it quickly reviewing it today . I
15 1 was a little concerned about and there may
16 be something in there now regarding
17 permanent foundations for structures . This
18 I is something we hadn ' t considered previously
19 and if it hasn ' t been considered , I note
20 ! it ' s a rather late stage of the game , but I
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21 brought this up about a year ago , I didn ' t
22 hear a reply on it , I would like to see
23 whether we can get something in there for
411 24 permanent foundations for structures such as
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1 the doublewides and that sort of thing .
2 GEORGE FRANTZ : What are you
3 defining as permanent foundation ?
4 KURT DUNNAM : Well , you know , I ' m
5 , not a contractor or an expert on it but I
6 would say something other than temporary
7 pilings or piers .
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : So , prefab walls or
9 something or a block wall ?
10 KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , I think so .
11 � Something that provides some sort of wind
411 12 shielding . Also more permanent attachment
13 than that sort of thing . I leave details to
14 the experts .
15 But the other thing was on towers ,
16 ( this is very simple and straightforward , I
17 1 don ' t think there was an exception for
18 private , that is not commercial , towers
19 under 100 feet reading through the section
20 very quickly , that appears to be overlooked
21 1 for , you know , HAM radio operators . And
22 maybe you want to put up a 45 - foot tower or
23 TV antenna on it , which is a little unusual
411 24 ' in this day and age but it might be
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1 something we ' d want to do at some point , but
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2 there ' s no provision for doing that without
3 requesting a variance it looks like . Simple
4 change . That ' s it .
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . I think that
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6 tele - - even HAM radio operators , it gets
7 ; into , you know , the Telecommunications Act
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8 and - -
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9 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We discussed
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10 I this and I don ' t - - when we were discussing
411 11 personal towers for TV antenna type of thing
12 for your own home , there was something that
13 it wouldn ' t fall under the category of a
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14 tower if I remember right .
15 KURT DUNNAM : Well , my impression is
16 j it used to be that under 100 feet was
17 considered generally exempt , you know ,
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whether it was commercial or non - commercial ,
19 and I think that sort of inadvertently fell
20 by the wayside .
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21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' ll have to - -
22 j KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , you might want
23 to look at the language .
411 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - relook at it .
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1 KURT DUNNAM : That would be the
2 • concern . And in general I think
3 non - commercial use under 100 feet should be
4 exempt . No lighting ' s required under
5 federal law , FAA regulations , and generally
6 ' a tower that ' s below 100 feet is not a
7 visible use that presents a structural
8 hazard .
9 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I think I
10 remember that and it was something that it
11 L wasn ' t freestanding , maybe it was attached
410 i2 j to the house or something .
13 f SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : We better look
14 I back .
15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It had
16 something to do with whether it was
17 ' freestanding or not .
18 , KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , I ' ll be glad to
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19 ii talk with anybody who has questions about
20 specifics on that .
21 STAN KOSKINEN : My name is Stan
22 i Koskinen . You want me to spell the last
23 name ?
24 COURT REPORTER : Please .
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1 STAN KOSKINEN : Koskinen is
2 K - O - S - K - I - N - E - N . I ' ve been here since 1930 .
3 I wasn ' t born here , I came here and then we
4 didn ' t have zoning and everybody - - nobody
5 mistreated anybody , they had respect for
6 { everybody ' s property . And my wife and I
7 f haven ' t ever had a job , we ' ve always worked
8 in and developed our empire , which is now
9 500 acres . And we want the privilege of
10 � selling building lots . That ' s my - - that ' s
11 j our retirement . And 500 feet is much too
Z2 4 much . We have sold some over the years and
13 people don ' t want more than 200 feet . If
14 they want more than that they ' ll buy two
15 I lots for their privacy , so why should it be
16 500 feet ? That ' s our retirement .
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17 And another thing , if you have a flag
18 lot the zoning says you have to have 100 -
19 foot frontage the way I read it . Is that
20 right ?
21 SUPRVISOR AUSTIC : In the proposal
22 there , yep .
23 STAN KOSKINEN : Why should it be 100
24 ' feet ? That ' s a half a building lot . People
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1 don ' t want to mow all that stuff . The Town
2 and the County right - of - way is only three
3 rods wide , which is about 50 feet , why
4 1 should it be more than 50 feet to ' get back
5 ! to the flag lot ?
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6 And another thing , there ' s
7 restrictions on how deep the lot should be .
8 It can ' t be - - it can ' t be too - - over so
9 many feet . Some lots don ' t fit that because
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it runs into somebody else ' s property . Some
11 of them go farther back . You can still get
12 i • your three acres out of it by going far
13 1 enough back , no problem .
14 That ' s my own personal property . I ' m •
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probably one of the few individuals that has
16 that .
17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That has
18 personal property ? I don ' t know , Stan .
19 GEORGE FRANTZ : Do we still have the
20 maximum lot depth ?
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s still in
22 the zoning . That ' s what we ' re here for . We
23 don ' t - - we came to a point where we had
411 24 . talked about this stuff amongst the Planning
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1 J Board and the Town Board several meetings
2 and we just came to a point where we didn ' t
3 1 know what we wanted to do - - we knew what we
4 wanted to do but we didn ' t know what the
people are going to think about what we want
6 to do , so that ' s what we ' re here for , to try
7 and find out if what we ' re thinkin g would
8 work as to what you ' re thinking . So , what
9 , we ' re doing is we ' re trying to take comments
10 to see your opinions and then we ' ll have to
11 go back and think what we were doing again
12 1 and see what we can come up with to
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13 accommodate .
14 ; STAN KOSKINEN : My feeling is that
15 people that are sitting at the head table
16 d should not make decisions for people that
17 are paying the taxes .
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s why we ' re
19 asking you , so we can - -
20 I STAN KOSKINEN : I just told you .
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right .
22 ( STAN KOSKINEN : If I have a buyer
23 that wants 200 feet of frontage and that ' s
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24 all he wants I should have the right to sell
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1 him that . If he wants 300 feet I should
2 have that right . If he wants to buy that
3 it ' s a mutual agreement between two parties .
4 And if you have 500 feet of frontage it ' s
5 going to grow up to brush because modern
6 people both have to work to make a living to
7 make the mortgage payments and they ' re not
8 going to have time to take care of it .
9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Done ?
10 STAN KOSKINEN : I ' m done on that
11 subject .
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right .
13 SANDY KLINE : Okay . My name is
14 Sandy Kline and we have the property right
15 here , everything here from here to here to
16 ' here ( indicating ) . Everybody around us is
17 Residential . We don ' t have a farm . We
18 don ' t own any tractors and we don ' t do any
19 agricultural work . We could but we don ' t .
20 Well , we have some of the best prime land
21 sitting there but people can ' t afford the
22 , taxes that you want . You people charge a
23 fortune in taxes on that prime road frontage
24 ( for years and years and years . Now you ' re
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1 telling us we can ' t sell it unless we break
2 it up into 500 - foot lots . Well , there are
3 1 people that want the property , they don ' t
4 want to pay 500 foot , they don ' t want that
5 much property . And why is it everybody else
6 around us is Residential but we ' re
7 l Agriculture in our own little corner there ?
8 It doesn ' t make any sense . Who decides it ' s
9 Agricultural or Residential ? We just live
10 there , we don ' t
1 farm it .
411 11 I GEORGE FRANTZ : It was - - again ,
12 it ' s proposed for Agricultural because
P g se
13 SANDY KLINE : There ' s no work barn
14 fI on anyplace . There ' s no tractors .
15 ( GEORGE FRANTZ : Is the land being
16 E farmed ?
17 SANDY KLINE : We rent it out for
18 $ 300 a year just so it helps pay the taxes
19 on it , but we can stop doing that .
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , you can stop
21 doing it but again - -
22 ! SANDY KLINE : We could put in a pig
23 farm or we could open it up for some more
24 businesses , or don ' t you guys want
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1 Trumansburg to grow at all ? Do you want it
2 to just stay the way it is ? It ' s not
3 ! like - - it ' s on a main highway . It ' s not
4 out of - - it ' s not like you ' re on a back
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5 ( road or anything . I mean , it ' s one of the
6 prime pieces cf front Residential land
7 you ' ve got left on 96 that ' s still vacant
8 and it ' s up for sale .
9 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Can I ask , do
10 you have an Ag Assessment on your property ?
11 I SANDY KLINE : Pardon me ?
12 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Do you get an
13 1 Ag Assessment on the taxes on that property
14 right now ?
15 DAVE KLINE : Do we get a what ?
16 i COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : An Agriculture
17 Assessment .
18 DAVE KLINE : I don ' t believe so .
19 I SANDY KLINE : No , they just mailed
20 us - -
21 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : You get a
? 2 reduction in the assessment of the property
23 if it ' s Agricultural ?
24 I SANDY KLINE : No , not at all .
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1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Just asking .
2 SANDY KLINE : We pay for prime road
3 frontage . •
4 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But I don ' t
5 J think road frontage - - does road frontage
6 cost any more in taxes than the rest of the
7 ' property ?
8 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : It is if they - -
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9 1 I don ' t know .
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10 1 SANDY KLINE : Yes .
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410 11 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If they
12 i determine that it might be commercial or
13 t something it ' s a possibility .
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14 ! TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : If they
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15 determine it ' s a viable building lot , yes ,
16 possible building lots , yes .
17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If you were to
18 subdivide the piece into 300 - feet lots even
19 though nobody were there they would assess
20 you differently than it would be one big
21 piece .
22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Oh , okay . But
23 ! it ' s not divided that way right now ?
24
DAVE KLINE : What ' s that ?
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1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Your
2 i property ' s not divided now so you ' re not
3 paying a higher assessment right now just
4 ' because it ' s road frontage ? I ' m just trying
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5 ! to clarify that . I ' m unaware - -
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6 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I don ' t think
7 it ' s just because road frontage .
DAVE KLINE : Well , I guess what
9 she ' s saying is why are we - - we ' re not
10 paying taxes on what you ' re calling a
11 property Agricultural as being paid as a
12 Business and now you get this guy out of
13 Town that comes in , he says all of a sudden
14 this is Agricultural .
15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Oh , so it ' s
16 ; all Business right now ?
17 DAVE KLINE : It ' s Residential
18 Business .
19 � COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Business for
20 all of your property ?
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : The County
22 " Assessment Department in theory assesses
23 properties based on comparable sales , i . e .
24 sale of property that is comparable to that ,
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1 and they are also supposedly taking into
2 account zoning .
3 i I think one of the issues was zoning
4 in the Town of Ulysses now and one of the
5 things that this Zoning Ordinance is trying
6 to address is that , you know , Business , you
7 can have a business along Route 96
8 practically anywhere and so County
9 Assessment is at - - could be looking at all
10 I the property along the road as potentially
11 ! developable for Business .
12 DAVE KLINE : But you ' re telling me I
13 can ' t put a business there .
14 '
GEORGE FRANTZ : I have proposed a
15 zoning map for the Town Board to decide .
16 DAVE KLINE : Well , you made a
17 statement here with these - - the blue areas
18 that you made it big enough for future
19 i growth . Where is it big enough for future
i
20 growth where mine is ?
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , yours I think
i
22 if it ' s where the body shop is - -
23 ' DAVE KLINE : Yes .
24 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - I believe that ' s
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1_ j allowed for about doubling of the amount of .
2 That was generally my rule of thumb .
3 DAVE KLINE : Which one of these is
4 i right ( indicating ) ? They don ' t agree . You
5 got on one of them it says minimum lot three
6 acres and then the other one says ten acres .
7 II Minimum frontage 500 , on the other one it
8 says 1 , 000 .
9 { GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . What I did ,
10 the one that I did last week I did not
11 j include the provisions in - - what is it - -
12 4 . 6 ?
13 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This one ' s
14 probably closer ( indicating ) .
15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Use this one
16 ( indicating ) .
17 DAVE KLINE : So , you ' re going from
18
minimum 500 frontage , now it ' s got to be
19 1 , 000 frontage ?
20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , 500 foot is
21 what ' s being proposed .
22 DAVE KLINE : Pardon ?
23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : 500 foot one is
? 4 the one that ' s being proposed at this point .
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1 DAVE KLINE : You just said this one
2 was , this one ' s 1 , 000 ( indicating ) .
3 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : That was for
4 ; Agricultural lots , not Residential lots .
5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s an
6 Agricultural lot . A Residential lot is less
7 i in the Ag District .
8 DAVE KLINE : So , let ' s say this
9 ! thing goes through and our whole frontage
10 here is Ag 1 . Is that saying you can ' t ever
I
11 change it to business or anything ?
12 I GEORGE FRANTZ : No .
13 ii SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , it ' s not
14 i saying that . You could request .
15 i DAVE KLINE : Then we ' d have to go in
16 front of the Board and public hearings
17 f and - -
t
18
f SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Or , you know ,
19 there ' s always the possibility , we probably
20 will review this in a certain number of
21 years and maybe we ' ll determine that it
22 wasn ' t correct the way we had done it the
23 I first time . You do have some commercial on
24 � your place and it ' s bigger than it is there
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1 now .
2 ! DAVE KLINE : It doesn ' t look it .
3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , it ' s hard
4 to see it on the map . It is a tad bigger .
5 DAVE KLINE : Does anybody here know
6 what a Section 305 -A is , the Agricultural
7 use is , the law ?
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I know .
9 DAVE KLINE : What is it ?
i
10 f GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s the section
411 11 that gives the Department of Ag & Markets
{
12 certain powers . It ' s the section that sets
13 up the Agricultural District Program .
14 ; DAVE KLINE : What does it mean so I
15 ' can understand it ?
16 + GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , '
11 , I m not an
17 �
attorney and I don ' t have the law memorized ,
18 but you can go to the website and read it .
19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It establishes
20 : the Department of Ag & Markets and how they
21 � operate it . Then you go on to other
22
sections and it will tell you what - - what
23 some of the regulations may be or what they
24 {i are . But it ' s the - - it ' s the establishing
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410 Public Informational Meeting 29
1 ` law for AO & Markets , 305 is .
2 DAVE KLINE : In this article you had
3 in the paper it says that the Board could
4 reserve 50 , 000 to 75 , 000 in the Town ' s
5 jIbudget to pay for development rights and
f
6 preserve space since the Board cannot tell
7 I people how to use their land .
8 C SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I didn ' t - -
9 there ' s a misquote there but similar to
10 j that , right . What ' s your question ?
411 11 1 DAVE KLINE : Exactly what does that
12 mean ?
13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : What that means
14 { is - - do you want me to answer this ?
15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , I can .
16 , SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : All right .
17 Ij Purchase and development rights , say for
18 i some reason it was decided that a certain
19 1 section of land had an important reason that
20 we should preserve the open space interest
21 or the view or something like that . We
i
22 1 decided you have a - - through hearings and
23 meetings you decide that this particular
411
24 parcel of land is important to preserve for
1
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1 )i
some reason or another , so what you could do
2 then is purchase the development rights ,
3 which means once you do that you pay the
4 landowner a certain amount of money for the
5 ' rights to develop on that piece of property .
6 Town then owns the rights . Or you could
7 also do this through State programs or land
8 trust , those types things .
9 i What happens is once whoever owns the
10 development rights on that piece of land ,
11 i the owner is being paid for that and in
12 1 return he ' s saying he won ' t develop it so
13 I the land will stay as is . But generally
14 1 speaking in this area it becomes hard to buy
15 development rights unless the value of the
16 i land is fairly high . I mean , you ' re not
17 ; going to accept a lower amount than - - for
18 i your development rights if you feel the land
19 is higher and the land price wouldn ' t
i3
20 f necessarily be higher unless there were a
21 lot of people seeking to buy the land for
22 ( some reason .
1
23 ' So , that ' s what it is . It ' s not - -
24 you still own the land , it ' s just that you
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1 can ' t - - you have agreed to not build a
2 house or build a business or something on
3 s that land to preserve it for some reason
I
4 i that you decide .
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : One of the problems
i
6 i with zoning is , number one , it ' s a pretty
7 I clumsy way of regulating land use . Any
8 !! planner will tell you that . And in some
9 ( communities they ' ve been able to preserve ,
Z0 ! protect land that the community thinks is
410 11 worth keeping out of development , out of the
12 ; market completely , okay ? And the way
13 they ' ve done is stepping in and buying the
14 1 right to develop the land from the
15 landowner . In agricultural areas it ' s been
16 quite successful , especially where there ' s
17 an awful lot of development pressure .
18 f It does a couple of things . One , it
19 takes the farmland out of competition with
20 developers because the municipality has
21
j essentially purchased the development rights
22 I and the land - - the use of the land is
I
23 limited to agriculture , okay , so it will , of
24 i
course , favorably generally affects - - it
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lowers the taxes , because again , it ' s not
2 being taxed as development land because it
3 # doesn ' t have any development potential .
4 The other benefit of it is that when ,
5 you know , a farmer is facing retirement it ' s
6 a lot easier for a younger farmer to step in
7 , and buy it because the younger farmers are
8 not competing with the developers to buy
9 I that farmland .
10 The real problem here in Tompkins
411 11 County , and in fact I did a study for the
12 County two years ago , and as Doug said ,
13 " it ' s - - our problem is the land values in
14 Tompkins County are really too low to make
15 purchase and development rights attractive
I
I
16 ! to a landowner , okay ? It ' s - - nobody ' s
17 , going to give up their development rights
18 for $ 600 an acre , which is In I think that ' s
19 1 what I recall being the average cost , and
20 it ' s why even in the , you know , in the Town
I
21 i of Ithaca , which has had a program now for
22 j four or five years , they don ' t have any
23 I takers , ycu know , and they have the highest
411 24 land values in the County . Because the
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1 problem is the value of agricultural land
2 is - - the value of land for agriculture is
3 here and it ' s value for development is about
4 here ( indicating ) . So , all the
5 Municipalities can really pay is about maybe
6 40 percent the total value of the land so
7 ! we ' re just sort of stuck unfortunately .
8
COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Can I ask what
9 your - - what would you prefer - - just - -
10 ; this is just a question - - the zoning to be
11 for your property ? Are you arguing that it
12 should be Business like the garage around
13 { it , your whole piece ? Or I ' m not quite
14 ( clear what you ' re - -
i
15 DAVE KLINE : I have 1 , 000 feet of my
16 ; Business that they gave me , which was 300
17 feet , now he ' s saying I got twice as much ,
18 but I ' d like to see it in writing . You take
19 i that 1 , 000 feet , you get four building lots
20 = out of there , nice building lots , real deep
21 1 ones .
f
22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : So , you ' re
23 1 talking about for Residential , you ' re not
411 24 talking about for the Business ?
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1
1 DAVE KLINE : I ' m retiring in
2 twenty - one days , I ' m moving away from here .
3 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Right , so
4 you ' re arguing Residential , you want it to
5 be High Density Residential ?
6 DAVE KLINE : If you guys got these
7 limits on now it ' s 1 , 000 feet I can only
8 sell one building lot .
9 ( SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If it weren ' t in
10 i the Ag District it would be less . Are you
11 requesting that it be R - - Rural
12 Residential ?
i
13 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That ' s what
14 I ' m asking . You want it to be a - -
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15 SANDY KLINE : We ' re paying
16 I Residential fees for our taxes .
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17 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I think that
18 would give you 250 feet .
19 i SANDY KLINE : Yes , everybody around
20
j us is Residential .
21 ` COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : There ' s a big
22 huge field across the street from your
23 ; property .
24 DAVE KLINE : But that will never be
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1 I sold .
2 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : You can ' t know
3 that . I ' m just saying that you have that
4 part and then there ' s a big field across
5 from your property , right ?
6 � SANDY KLINE : Yeah , that belongs to
7 I Stover ( phonetic ) .
8 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Okay .
9
i DAVE KLINE : My feeling is that
10 whole 96 corridor should be opened up to
11 Residential and Commercial . Get some
411 12 businesses in there . Get some jobs in
13 I there .
14 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you ' re
15 asking for Residential ?
16 DAVE KLINE : Other than what we are
I
17 f now . I ' d like the option to be able to put
18 another business in .
19 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That wouldn ' t
20 Il be Residential then , Business .
21 DAVE KLINE : You said you left room
22 I for expansion on businesses , either / or .
23 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But it would
411 24 be a different zone .
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110 I Public Informational Meeting 36
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1 DAVE KLINE : This area needs
2 ; businesses .
3 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You have to
f
4 consider the two - - the Stover and your
5 place and I think - - I don ' t know how it
6 i ended up . Dick , how did it end up ?
7 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : Potentially we
8 looked at it as being existing what they
9 are , PED ' s , and that ' s how we kept it .
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We could
410 11 consider that . Would you want to be
12 i Residential or Business ?
13 s DAVE KLINE : Mix .
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14 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : Mix .
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15 : COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I don ' t think
I
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16 that ' s - - so , if it ' s a Business , George or
17 Doug , or I haven ' t been at this for the
18 whole two years , so if it ' s Business can you
19 i put a residence there ?
20 (j CHAIRMAN COOGAN : No .
21 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Not in the
22 Business Zone , but if it were next to it
you
23 i could .
410 24
} COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Okay .
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , prior - - part
2 I of the problem with these maps is they ' re
3 1 showing the whole Town so you ' re looking at
4 ( that and , yeah , you ' re probably seeing 300
5 1 feet but I ' m sure it ' s 600 plus feet .
6 ! DAVE KLINE : That ' s what I ' d like to
1
7 ' know .
8 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : When we get the
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9 I map done or closer to being done it will be
10 more to scale and the lots may be on - - each
i
11 f individual lot will be designated on there
12
( as it is on some of the other maps so you
i
13 can actually see where you are in relation
14 to the neighbor . You can ' t tell now because
15 it ' s big blurb .
16 DAVE KLINE : Well , that picture of
17 my land right there , I got a survey map down
18 j to the house I ' ll give you .
19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Do you have that
20 ! little map ?
21 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That has the
22 parcel - - the land parcels marked on it ?
23 j DAVE KLINE : Yes , and your little
24 dot looks just like my 300 feet that ' s on my
w
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f
1 map .
2 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right .
3 i That ' s a good - - we ' ll look at that .
4 DAVE KLINE : Now , if it ' s 600 feet
5 j that will be fine , but it looks like 300
6 i feet to me .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , we ' ll look at
8 it .
9 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , we will
10 ; consider that , Mr . Kline .
11 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : My name ' s Charles
12 Schlough , S - C - H - L - O - TJ - G - H . Question about
13 that Hamlet District . I see that what ' s
14 proposed is to encourage a lot more dense
15 I development of a variety of sorts , both
,
16 Commercial , Retail and Residential . And one
17 of the ways to accomplish the Residential
18 side is to increase multiple units . I know
19 that two - family units are available in most
i
20 I of the Residential Districts and in the
i
21 1 Hamlet in order to have multiple residences ,
22 1 which I presume means four - to six - unit
23 apartment buildings , if I read it correctly
24 1 it says that you can do that with site plan
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1 approval but it has to be - - the Residential
2 units have to be on the second floor over
3 ! the Retail or other Commercial . Is that the
4 correct reading of it ?
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah . The idea is
6 f that , you know , to hopefully encourage , you
7 } know , the development of apartments over
8 i retail stores , okay ? So that ' s within the
9 Hamlet District , that ' s where you could have
10 apartments , okay ?
11 II CHARLES SCHLOUGH : But how is it
12 proposed to increase the Residential Density
13 1 Zone for that Hamlet if you have to bring in
I
14 Retail and Commercial with Residential ? I
15 i mean , why can ' t you build an apartment ?
16 GEORGE FRANTZ : The way you can
17 build apartments would be if you have a
18 1 proposal , a site plan and the like , you can
19 ; then go to the Town Board and request that
20 I they zone the land for the Multiple
21
Residence .
22 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Why would there
23 be a requirement of that additional step
24 instead of allowing it at the onset ?
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , at this point
2 the thinking is , you know , it gives better
3 , control to the Town in terms of where it
4 1 would like such development , okay ? Because
1
5 ` a rezoning is a legislative action , you
6 ' know , at the discretion of the Town Board .
7 If you were allowed this type of development
8 in the Hamlet District even by special
9 1 permit it ' s a lot harder for the Town , if
10 j it ' s not a Good idea , to turn it down .
11 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , it seemed
410 12 i to me that with the very specifications for
13 I lot sizes and density setback and all these
14 things that you could define in the Zoning
15 . Ordinance at the beginning what you would
16 t require if there were to be a proposal for
17 or an intention to use the site for a
18 four - unit apartment house . There are a lot
19 of specifications for all kinds of uses but
20 II you ' re - - you ' re trying to encourage
21 ! Residential development , one of the
22 conditions under which that would be
23 1 desirable or allowed .
24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If I may ,
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1 there ' s a way around this , because it
2 doesn ' t necessarily exclude townhouse
3 I condominium lots . In other words , if you
4 add common wall apartment .
5 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : But it requires
6 that there be a Retail or Commercial - -
f
7 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s if you
i
8 have an apartment . These are separate
9 maybe .
0
1 # GEORGE FRANTZ : You can have
410 11 1 through , for instance , use of cluster
12 t subdivision , okay , ou can actually look at
Y y
13 ; the Hamlet Zoning District as saying one
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Y g
14 dwelling for every 6 , 000 square feet of land
15 1 and if you owned a one acre of land
16 I essentially that ' s seven dwelling units ,
17 ! okay ? You could fit seven townhouse
18 t dwelling units on about - - well , actually
19
about 6 , 000 square feet of land I think , is
20 that - -
21 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : ( Nods head )
22 ti GEORGE FRANTZ : And the remainder of
23 the parcel could be for the driveways ,
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24 garages , and the like .
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1 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I didn ' t see any
2 language about townhouses . Is there a
3 definition that makes them different from an
4 apartment building ?
! SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' ve seen the
6 definitions in the Ordinance .
7 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Because I didn ' t
i
8 see any mention of townhouses within the
9 Hamlet .
10 GEORGE FRANTZ : And the reason you
11 1 didn ' t , because townhouse is a style of
12 architecture -
-
13 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right .
14 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - not a type of
15 ownership .
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s not
17 Multiple Residence .
18 ' CHARLES SCHLOUGH : It ' s not Multiple
19
� Residence . Is townhouse a form of
20 ownership ?
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , a townhouse is a
22 j type of dwelling unit , okay ?
23 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : It ' s a design
411 24 ' feature .
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , attach homes
2 ! generally in a row , okay ? A townhouse could
I
3
1 be six dwellings attached together on six
4 ' different lots .
5 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : So , you ' re saying
6 a townhouse would be permitted under what
7 you ' re proposing ?
8 ' GEORGE FRANTZ : Townhouses , yeah ,
9 ; are permitted .
10 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I ' ll have to read
i
11 ! it . I didn ' t come across that .
12 S GEORGE FRANTZ : In fact I think in
13 the definitions we may have a definition for
14 townhouse just to clarify the fact that , you
15 I know , we look at it as just being a type of
16 I architecture outside of , you know , who owns
17 1 what .
18 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , I thought a
19 townhouse was a form of Multiple Residence ,
20 { so I ' m confused by the terminology .
21 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Each little
22 section in a townhouse , say it ' s two story
23 1 or whatever - -
24 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right .
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1 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - each little
2 section is owned by somebody , it ' s not
3 rented .
4 You move to the other side of the
5 wall , this person owns this other , so it ' s a
6 form of ownership actually .
7 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , that ' s
8 j condominiums , separate ownerships .
9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Same thing ,
10 except in a townhouse you own the land
11 underneath the building . It ' s kind of
12 I weird . In a condominium you own the
13 i building , you don ' t own the land underneath
14 it .
15 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : So , you ' re
16 looking for owner - occupied densities rather
17 than - -
I
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah , right .
19 ! COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Charles , I didn ' t
20 i help write it but I like seeing that there ,
21 that mention that the Residential
22
I development above the Retail is allowed ,
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23 because there ' s several very nice little
24 1� residential buildings , you know ,
the old - -
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411 Public Informational
1 i like the old store on the corner and so on
2 that might survive if they had economically
3 viable other use in them , so I think it ' s
4 good that it ' s there but it ' s not trying to
5 f be directive .
6 J CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I think it ' s an
i
7 I attractive idea but I don ' t see it in
8 practice very much in Tompkins County and I
9 think you ' re going to have a difficult time
10 f finding buyers in that configuration .
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That may be
12 true .
13 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , I think , yeah ,
14 we may have a tough time finding people who
15 f want to , you know , take , let ' s say , one of
16 the old buildings in Jacksonville and rehab
17 it with retail or office on the ground floor
18 and apartment in the second floor , but I
19 think it ' s important that the Town allow the
20 option , because in most communities they
21 don ' t allow it .
22 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , that ' s
23 i fine . That ' s fine . In the process you ' re
24 ( excluding what is commonly a form of
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1 developing higher densities and Multiple
2 Residency in a Hamlet or Village , so that ' s
1
3 I what you want .
4 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you ' re
5 saying essentially we should consider also
6 allowing three - , four - , five - apartment
7 buildings ?
8 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : With design with
9 some kind of a limit in terms of the impact
10 that you ' re willing to allow , but at least
410 11 allow conventional types of methods for
12 I increasing Multiple Residence or higher
Multiple g
13 density residencies in the Hamlet . If you
14 can allow one unit per 6 , 000 feet why just
15 j describe it as - - in this very , very
16 I unconventional or I should say uncommon ways
17 of using that property . People that live in
I
18 the Hamlet it has to be important to them
19 I and if you want - -
20 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I see your
21 point .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I think - - let
23 me just to help maybe hopefully help clarify
411 I
24 it , but is your point that we need to maybe
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1 look at something that is somewhere between
2 the owner - occupied home on 6 , 000 square feet
3 and the apartment complex ?
I
4 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Yes .
5 , CHAIRMAN COOGAN : George , I think
6 : this came about because at one point we had
7 actually divided the Hamlet into a Hamlet
8 Business District and a Hamlet Residential
9 District and it was the Hamlet Business
I
10 District where we said businesses on the
11 first floor , residence on the second floor ,
12 giving it a more business feel , and then we
13 said no when we merged the Hamlet together ,
14 and I think this is a holdover .
15 PEG COOGAN : I ' d like to say - - Peg
16 i Coogan from Jacksonville . I think you had
17 come to one of the Jacksonville Community
18 { Association Meetings and you were asking for
19 I feedback from residents and I think one of
20 the concerns was that a big multi - unit
g ltz unit
21 apartment building might be inappropriate
22 I for the Hamlet whereas something more like
23 attached roadhouses would have more of a
24 I feel for 19th Century - - 19th Century
1
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t
1 community , which is what we ' re trying to
2 preserve there . And I don ' t know if there
3 ! are other options besides townhouses versus
4 i five - story apartment buildings . I grew up ,
5 1 it was kind of nice and I have a version to
6 them now , but I think that ' s part of where
7 that came from was the rest of us not
8 wanting huge - -
9 I GEORGE FRANTZ : If you ' re interested
10 in going back and seeing if there are
11 examples elsewhere - -
12 1 SUFERVISOR RUSTIC : We ' ll see what
13 we can find for examples . We ' d have to
14 really consider what - - I can see his point ,
15 if you can ' t get a commercial - - if you
16 I can ' t get somebody that wants the commercial
I
17 I space why are you going to build a building
18 and have apartments upstairs ?
19 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : If you were
i
20 r going to have apartments would it have to go
21 ► to site plan review so that you could sort
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22 of assure by the Planning Board ' s review of
23 the way it was designed that you wouldn ' t
411 24 have some , you know , I don ' t know ,
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1 seven - story tall thing that ' s not
2 j appropriate for that Hamlet ?
3 j SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s a height
4 1 limit of 40 feet .
5 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But I ' m just
6 saying , would there be site plan review just
7 triggered right away , have to be anyway ?
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah .
I
9 ( GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , for the
10 proposed multi - family district .
11 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It is now ?
I
12 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes .
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13 . COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : And so if
14 apartments were included in that somehow or
15 it was expanded it would still have to be
16 It reviewed by the Planning Board ?
17 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah .
18 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : The plan for
19 it and the layout of everything and the
20 overall size and how it fit into the
I
21 (� community , the space around it ?
22 i GEORGE FRANTZ : We ' d have to , you
23 know , again , yeah , look at this concept ,
24 ! which is again something between the single -
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1 family home and the big apartment complex .
2 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Right .
3 GEORGE FRANTZ : But I would suspect
4 that if we come up with something it would ,
5 yeah , be subject to site plan approval or
6 something .
7 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : So , I was just
8 making the point for people that there ' s
9 another level of check too beyond just the
10 Zoning which is the Planning Board having
11 control over how it ' s done .
12 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Let me simplify
13 my request . That didn ' t seem to be very
14 clear . I think the language that you have
15 now could be changed and satisfy me if it
16 t eliminated. the 100 percent requirement that
17 i there be a retail or commercial ground floor
� 8 I under any apartment .
19 ' SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Under any
20 apartment ?
21 ' CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right .
22 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you might
23 have one - -
24 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : In other words ,
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f Public Informational Meeting 51
I
1 ' thereby allow Multiple Residence within this
2 District subject to site plan approval given
3 the measurements , stipulations , and all
4 { those statistics that you want to require ,
5 heighth , density coverage of the ground ,
6 ' allow something more conventional . I mean ,
7 some nice townhouses that have , you know , a
8 Georgetown kind of look about them , two
s
9 floors is fine and rentable townhouses are
10 just as attractive as owner - occupied
11 townhouses . And I just think if you loosen
12 j it up and accomplish more of what Y ou ' d like
13 i to see the Hamlet look like .
14 DAVE KLINE : Does Alex ever sit in
15 on any of this ?
16 I COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : He usually
17 does .
18 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : He usually does .
19 1 He must be somewhere else tonight .
20 i DAVE KLINE : Because we looked into
21 doing apartments over commercial and
22 Tompkins County Fire Code it just almost
23 prohibits it costwise .
110 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , the new
i
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1 Codes would allow it . This one ' s a lot
2 more - -
3 DAVE KLINE : You got to have
4 sprinkler systems . You got to have fire
5 walls .
6 ; SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Sometimes it
7 depends on the size . You would need
8 sprinklers in the commercial .
9 DAVE KLINE : If you find people to
10 invest money - -
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : The new Codes
12 are different . They took over January 1st
13 of this year .
14 j DAVE KLINE : And you ' re saying
i
15 ( they ' re less restrictive ?
16 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yep . Sprinklers
17 will get you away with a lot so if you
18 happen to be in
pp Jacksonville where you had
19 water or somewhere else you could do a lot
20 y of things that you wouldn ' t have been able
21 to do before .
22 DAVE KLINE : Yeah , but that ' s - - the
23 ! sprinklers are expensive .
24 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , maybe . I
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1 don ' t know .
2 JIM BROWN : My name ' s Jim Brown .
3 I ' ve got about 80 acres here in the Town of
1
4 i Ulysses . I guess the first thing I ' d like
i
5 to say , I ' d like to see some of these
6 1 meetings better publicized . I don ' t think
7 3 it ' s because people aren ' t concerned . I
8 don ' t think people know about them . And
9 just because it wasn ' t advertised in the
10
paper , if you ge down through Trumansburg
11 1 i
and ask people on the street what the new
12 zoning is they don ' t have a clue .
13 I mean , why not take a copy of this ,
14 you spent so damn much money , and mail a
15 copy to some of the
py people , the taxpayers ?
16 You ' ve hired the planner , you ' ve taken - -
17 you want to take bus tours and you have all
18 I these meetings , but nobody knows about
19 what ' s going on . I mean , can ' t you just
20 make people more aware ? I think you ' d have
21 I a room full of people here if more people
22 knew .
23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I had a mistake
411 24 this time . I would have - - we didn ' t get it
I
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1 in .
2 JIM BROWN : The first thing - -
3 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : The paper didn ' t
7
4 ' publish our thing .
5 JIM BROWN : Okay . That ' s probably
6 not your fault or Marsha ' s fault .
7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s her fault .
8
i JIM BROWN : Nobody really knows
9 what ' s going on .
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know .
11 II JIM BROWN : I talked to a fellow , he
12 ( have several properties here in the Town of
13 ' Ulysses here the other day , he didn ' t have a
14 Ii clue that this was coming about .
15 ? SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re having
16 i three more meetings . This one got away from
17 I us .
18 JIM BROWN : One of the first things
19 I ' m upset about Is this : I ' ve got land in
20
the Agricultural District down here and ten
21 � acres in 1 , 000 feet of road frontage . Come . .
22 on , folks . I mean , why ten acres in an
23 Agricultural District ? I mean , that ' s my
24 1 retirement . I don ' t have a 401 - K , you know ,
I
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1 Tier I retirement like some of you folks
2 have . You ' re telling me that I got to
3 have - - I got to sell ten acres , I ' m not
4 I going to get anybody to buy a ten - acre lot
5 there . I just hooked up water on 96 , now
6 you ' re telling me I ' ve got 480 feet of
7 frontage but it ' s not salable . Isn ' t that
8 kind of ridiculous ? I mean , my property on
9 I 96 would be just as good for a lawn and
10 ! garden business or anything . I mean , hey .
11 I COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Where ' s your
. 12 property on 96 , sir ?
13 JIM BRCWN : It ' s on Route 96 just
14 beyond where Jackson Heights Apartments are .
I
I
15 + COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Mm - hm .
i
16 JIM BROWN : It ' s nice level field .
17 { I mean , now you ' re telling me that 480 , it ' s
18 unsalable .
19 , GEORGE FRANTZ : Well -
I -
20 JIM BROWN : There ' s enough room
21 i there for two residential houses . You ' re
22 telling me that my property is going to be
23 1 worthless when I go to sell it now but you
24 I keep increasing my taxes .
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1 SUPERVISOR AU' STIC : We ' re not doing
2 it .
3 GEORGE FRANTZ : This is one of the
4 issues that we ' ve been going around and
5 1 around for for what , about four or five
6 i months now . It ' s by all means not yet
7 settled .
8 , JIM BROWN : It seems like that ' d be
9 a good place for a lawn and garden store . I
10 ; mean , I don ' t know if you ' re - - with these
410 11 Zoning Laws , I don ' t know how you ' re going
12 to have people come into the Town of
13 Ulysses . I don ' t even know how you ' re going
14 to have young people . I mean , Health
i
15 i Department said one acre , you people are
16 saying two , three , ten .
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : We ' re saying
18 three - quarters .
i
19 ' JIM BROWN : You got three - quarters
20 i where there ' s no water and there probably
21 1 won ' t be water for quite a few years .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : The red area .
23 ! JIM BROWN : Yeah , down in the lower
j
24 Perry City Road .
(__
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411 Public Informational N.eetinc 57
1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again - -
2 f SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There won ' t be
3 for a while .
4 i JIM BROWN : Won ' t for - - for a
5 i while , exactly . But yet you ' re restricting
6 me from what I can sell .
i
7 Another quirk I got about this is
8 j that I have a roadside stand . Somebody on
9 i this wonderful Board here , I was going to
10 t ask who it was but there ' s nobody here that
11 showed up except you , Mr . Coogan . I - - I
12 have a roadside stand which sets on the edge
g
13 of the road , which according to your rules
14 in here now I can ' t be on the right - of -way
15 t of the road , I have to have parking behind
15
the shoulder of the road .
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Right . Do you have
18 a permit for the DOT ?
19 ! JIM BROWN : Not on the Town road .
20 ; There ' s like two cars on this road all day
21 1 long except for the ones I brought .
22 i GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s on a Town
i
23 i highway ?
24 JIM BROWN : On a Town highway .
w
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s
I
1 GEORGE FF.ANTZ : Well , it ' s up to the
2 i Town to decide , you know .
3 ! JIM BROWN : It ' s really spelled out
4 in here but , you know , it ' s just like they
5 were pointing a finger at someone here . I
i
6 mean - -
7 I GEORGE FRANTZ : Honest to God no .
8 E JINI BROWN : I just - - I just can ' t
9 ' quite understand it , doesn ' t Ag & Markets
10 l have a real problem what you folks are doing
11 1 here ?
t
12 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : With what
13 ! part ?
14 JIM BROWN : With this ten - acre
15 zoning .
t
16 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Well , they do ,
17 right , Doug ?
i
18 JIM BROWN : Hasn ' t there been a
19 letter from Ag & Markets ?
20 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Their complaint ' s
21 ' in another direction .
22
COL'NCILWOMAN MARINO : I mean , Ag &
23 Markets ' whole goal is to protect
24 I agriculture totally .
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Public Informational Meeting 59
1 JIM BROWN : I don ' t see where you
I
2 folks are trying to protect agriculture one
3 j bit . I really don ' t .
4 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But you ' re
5 asking about Ag & Markets and that ' s what
6 their whole goal is .
7 ! JIM . BROWN : I think your focus here ,
ti
8 you keep saving you want agriculture , what I
9 ' see here is there are certainly people here
10 that don ' t want houses in their backyard .
i
11 i . Well , that land by farmers is for sale . If
12 { you don ' t want houses in your backyard buy
13 , it , you know , pay the price .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : To get back , Ag &
15 ( Markets , yes , has some issues with this ,
i
16 ` with some of the provisions of the Zoning
17 Ordinance . They ' re issues that I ' ve been
18 looking into . I don ' t see them as being
19 I serious issues . I mean , we ' ll probably have
I
20 to make some adjustments . Mostly just in
21 j many cases using their language instead of
22 ; our language .
23 But as far as major problems between
24
this Zoning Ordinance and Ag & Markets , no .
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1 There are not major problems primarily
2 because , again , I know what 305 says , I ' ve
3 1 worked with the staff at Ag & Markets on
4 other projects , I ' ve always had a good
5 !
working relationship with them , so - - and
1
6 i that ' s actually one of the reasons why we
7 sent them the Zoning Ordinance .
8 ; SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Change a couple
9 of different definitions and do a little
10 exemption .
}
410 11 JIM BROWN : Why couldn ' t my parcel
12 down there on 96 be Agricultural or with 200
13 ! foot of frontage or for , you know , like a
14 small commercial business ? I mean , if you
15 put water up 95 wouldn ' t you want businesses
16 on there at some point in time ? I mean - -
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , we are - -
18 we ' re providing - - again , I ' m looking at
19 t market too . What ' s the population ? What ' s
20 the projected future population and what is
21 going to be the demand for retail in the
22 Town of Ulysses ?
23 1 JIM BROWN : Ten - acre Agricultural
24 ( lots are
going to bring a lot of people ?
I
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i
1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , I ' m talking
2 about the Business zoning , okay ?
3 I JIM BROWN : Right .
4 GEORGE FRANTZ : So . . .
5 I .TIM BROWN : A lot of quirks in this
6 I thing .
7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It won ' t end up
8 in ag lots I don ' t think .
9 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : And I ' m sure at the
10 ( next - -
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s why we ' re
f
12 asking you .
13 GEORGE FRANTZ : At the next
14 ? conference maybe I ' ll take a tape recorder
I
15 and record the little discussion I have with
16 + my buddies up in Albany because I think it ' s
17 , going to be really interesting .
18 1 JIM BROWN : Okay .
19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Anybody else
20 want to go for it ?
21 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I got a question .
22 I mean , this prompting me to think about
1
f
23 1 what do people do down the road if something
411 24 changes in terns of their needs and they
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
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411 Public Informational Meeting 62
i
1 I want to change the use of Agricultural to
2 t Rural Residence and they ' re close to
3 something like that , what is - - what is the
4 opportunity and the process for a person to
5 appeal for a change in zoning for their
6 parcel ? Is that possible ?
7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s possible .
8 ' It ' s probably - - it ' s not an easy thing but
9 it ' s possible .
10 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : If they use their
I
11 } proposing as adjacent to an existing use
12 ; that they want it ' s easier to have this
13 creeping kind of development ?
14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , I think
15 what want ,you
� -� t , _e
verybody , Ag & Markets
16 whether you know it or not , Tompkins or Town
Z7 of Ulysses , we should have brought the map ,
f
18 is probably 95 percent in a New York State
19
Tompkins County Ag District so that gives Ag
20 & Markets a little more - - a little more
21 control over what we do or supposedly than
22 if there were no Ag District .
23 I This - - this is - - this is what
411 24 Ulysses is calling its Ag District
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I
1 1 ( indicating ) . You understand that there are
i
2 ` farms down in here , there are farms all over
3 these places ( indicating ) . We took - - we
4 i looked at the soil types , we looked at the
5 I farming operations that were there , we
6 looked at the economic viability of where we
7 thought the best chance that the
8 I agricultural operations were going to - -
9 1 would stay in business , so that ' s why we
70 i decided that these areas were - - are a - -
11 one zone , Ag District .
12 I We ' re not saying all of this land ,
13 even all those trailer parks all the way
14 j around here , not the Hamlet and not Hitching
15 Post and not very much of the land is not in
16 an Ag District . So , whatever we do here
17 f
doesn ' t mean that you can ' t do your
18 agricultural operation in any other place .
19 I You still have the rights of the New York
20 State Ag District .
21 j And we developed this plan , the idea
22 { was to make sufficient use of the water that
23 we just put in . So , in order to do that we
24 were trying to convince Ag & Markets that we
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1 were prior approving the land in these red
2 areas , they don ' t want water districts run
3 S through Ag District . So , we ' re trying to
4 (( convince them that by creating those zones
5 ! and encouraging that we would - - we would
6 like them to say that ' s good to put water
7 down there and use it for Residential
8 ( purposes in that we saved all the rest of
9 the people trying for Agricultural purposes .
10
So , yes , we probably should address
11 1 Residential or something to make the best
410 12 use of the water , I ' m not saying how you ' re
13 going to do it , but there ' s the other
14 } problem with paying for that infrastructure .
15 So , you ' re getting hit by two sides of - - of
I
16 1 the dilemma here so that ' s what we need to
i
17 figure out .
18 We got - - I think basically what we
19 i
have describes the zone and what you can do
20 in the zone if I ' m not mistaken . It ' s
21 ' pretty close . What we need to do now is
I
22 decide where we want these zones . Are we
23 {
j right on this or do we want them somewhere
24 else ? And maybe modification here and
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1
1
1 there . So , that ' s what we ' re trying . And I
2 understand that this meeting was not
3 i extremely highly publicized . It is in the
4 ` process now , the next one should be more
5 ! informational . Sorry about that .
6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It was
7 j certainly our intent to have it in the
8 paper . It just got messed up .
9 ( SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We didn ' t get it
10 in the paper and it happens . But , what we
410 11 need to do , we ' re going to have a series of
12 three or four of these things . We just need
13 to keep people keep coming in with ideas
14 that we forgot or didn ' t think about or we
15 : didn ' t know about . That ' s what we need to
16 ; know so that we can see what we did wrong or
I
17 what we did right . We might have done •
18 something right , didn ' t we , probably ?
19 I Something ?
20 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Yeah , probably
21 something . So , again if you can read
22 ; through all the pages of it -
23 ! SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s a long
411 24 { thing .
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I
1 j CHARLES SCHLOUGH : - - I really do
2 have to agree with people like Dave Kline .
3 I mean , he ' s moving away . He wants
4 1 to sell that property , he should be able to
5 sell it off in 200 - foot parcels . There ' s no
6 reason whether it be Residential or
7 Commercial right on the main drag , I just
8 can ' t - - I don ' t understand that .
9 DAVE KLINE : Is it cost prohibitive
10 to send mailers out to everybody ?
11 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : To everybody in
12 the Town ?
13 I DAVE KLINE : No , to landowners .
14 ' SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : How do we
15 determine what ' s a landowner ?
16 I DAVE KLINE : Tax records .
17 { SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I mean , every
18 i landowner , every house ?
19 DAVE KLINE : That would give
20 everybody a chance to come . If they don ' t
21 I come it ' s their own fault .
22 ? SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It would cost a
23 couple bucks .
24 i COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : A
(
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410 fPublic Informational Meeting 67
1 1 questionnaire or what do you want it to be ?
2 COUNCILMAN SCOTT : Pass a hat ?
3 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : But not send
4 the Ordinance to everyone ?
5 I DAVE KLINE : No , no , no .
6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That would
7 cost a lot ,
1
8 I DAVE KLINE : Just tell them about
9 1 the meeting .
10 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : They ' ve been
411 11 working on the Ordinance for many years ,
12 we ' ve had many public hearings , you know ,
13 1 very , very few people , you know , call me ,
14 you know . It ' s on , you know , it ' s on the
15 1 web - - has been on our website for years , a
16 I couple years . It ' s different now but - - and
17 there ' s always been copies of it in the
18
office , so it ' s hard to hold on to people ' s
19 1 hands and get them .
20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We can do - -
21 what we will do is make sure that there ' s a
22
list of the different providers , three or
1
23 I four more meetings , that we ' re going to have
24 I so that you can pick out which one you want
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411 Public Informational Meeting 68
1 ( to come to or which ones you don ' t want to
2 come to or come to all for all I care , but
3 I at least you know that there will be three
4 1 or four on certain dates so you can at least
5 do that . If sending out a post card or
t
6 $ something , it ' s worth considering .
7 ; GEORGE FRANTZ : I ' ll have to say
8 it ' s really tough to get people to these
9 j meetings unless there ' s something really
10 ( controversial and then you pack the hall .
11 I ' m having that experience over in Dryden
12 ! because I ' m even less popular over there
f
13 with some of my ideas for the comprehensive
14 planning . We ' re having no problems getting
15 ( people to meetings . And I guess that ' s , you
16 know , and I ' ve been doing this stuff for
17 twenty years and we could - - we could do a
18 blanket mailing of post cards , we could do
i
i
19 I any number of things and , we still don ' t - -
20 people don ' t get interested .
21 DAVE KLINE : There are a lot of
22 people who probably have a one - acre lot or
23 an - - they ' re probably never going to come .
411 24 Anybody who has much acreage should be
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
411 I Public Informational Meeting 69
1 concerned .
2 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That might
3 I probably be the other what you ' re talking
i
4 about , the majority of the - -
5 DAVE KLINE : Bigger landowners or
6 whatever .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : And maybe again this
8 meeting wasn ' t as well publicized as we
9 j wanted it to be and maybe the next time we
10 ( will pack them in . I mean , I - - I could put
11 out a press release saying Town planners
12 ! recommend adult use district and - -
I
13 I COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Everyone will
14= come .
I
15 I GEORGE FRANTZ : - - we ' ll pack ' em
I
16 in .
17 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' ll pack ' em
18 in or not .
19 DAVE KLINE : People are just more
i
20 busy than they were now in years past and I
21 don ' t - - I miss people that die , friends of
22 i mine , week later , jeez , I didn ' t know that .
f
23 People just don ' t read the newspaper . They
411 24 1 got ballgames with their kids . They got - -
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Public Informational Meeting 70
? SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know . I know .
2 We can get it on the radio too if that would
3 I help . WACU , does anybody listen to that ?
4 E KURT DUNNAM : Lite 97 , something
5 like that . Picks 106 .
6 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : I ' m really sorry
7 that this wasn ' t advertised . Probably
8 i should have been better but we ' ll do it
9 again .
10 , JIM BROWN : Another thing that I
11 ! believe that these larger road frontages , if
12 f you look around , how busy peoples ' lives are
13 now , they don ' t want to take care of 700
14 feet of road frontage . I don ' t want to
15 � bring that up . Your business .
16 " SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s okay .
17 i JIM BROWN : People , you ' re going to
18 I
end up - - if you start selling three acre
19 1 lots to a lot of people and they like going
20
weekends , they like to go on vacation ,
21 you ' re going to end up with little brush
22 lots behind each house and it ' s just , I
23 ; mean , there ' s many eo le who don ' t take
P ke
24 I care of 700 feet of road frontage . I mean ,
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
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I
I
1 if you look around - - I can send up a lot of
2 pictures that people can ' t take care of it .
3 They don ' t want to . Or even 500 , the guy
4 ' buys an acre lot and he ' s happy . Even if it
5 I was a two - acre lot with 200 feet or
6 ! something like that . But this extra road
7 frontage , . I mean , for instance my lot down
8 there being in an Ag District with say 400
9 1 and some feet of frontage left , what do I do
i
10 with it ? I have to come to a variance
i
11 I before I can sell it to anybody ?
12 } GEORGE FRANTZ : No , it would be - -
13 it would be a legal non - conforming lot ,
14 okay ?
15 JIM BROWN : But I have to sell ten
16 acres ?
17 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , you can sell
18 i the whole lot .
19 i GEORGE FRANTZ : If you ' ve got ten
Z0 I acres with 480 feet of frontage .
21 { JIM BROWN : Right .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . As it ' s
23
written you could sell it . as one lot , okay ,
411 24 as an Agricultural lot .
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1 JIM BROWN : For instance , if I want
2 to split the hack half of this property and
3 sell three or four acres along the road with
4 the 480 feet of frontage then I couldn ' t
5 1 sell it , correct ?
6 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , it ' s tough
7 not having a map of it in front of me and
I
8 the exact circumstances .
I
9 l JIM BROWN : Because I did have a
I
10 ( fellow that wanted to buy part of it for
411 11 more development for townhouses but he
12 skipped the country now so we won ' t see him
13 i again .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : So - -
I
15 Jfl! BROWN : But if I wanted to sell
16 I
part of it to him in the back and keep the
17 road frontage for two good size house lots
18 that wouldn ' t be salable , this doesn ' t sound
19 right .
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again , I don ' t
21 1 want to talk specifically about your parcel
22
without having the map in front of me .
23 JIM BROWN : You ' ll have it .
r
24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This is what ' s
f
s
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1 hard to do , it ' s hard to - - you have a
2 situation , somebody else might have a
3 situation , it ' s hard to do a Zoning
4 Ordinance on , I mean , it ' s extremely hard - -
5 JIM BROWN : Right , I agree .
6 ' SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - to please
7 I everybody .
8 I mean , obviously we might have
9 something wrong here , we might not , but it ' s
10 ! hard to do something to create a law that
71 1 covers the whole Town that ' s
411
} going to make
12 everybody extremely happy .
13 JIM BROWN : But on the other hand - -
14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So you have to
15 i come to a medium somewhere , and maybe we ' re
R
16 too far off the medium at this point .
17 JIM BROWN : I mean , on the other
18 hand , you take some of these farmers like
19 { Stan and Chuck Outhoudt ( phonetic ) and
20 people like that , and Danny that have had
21 1 this land for years , when they get ready to
22 retire and want to sell a lot should they
23
have to come and get a variance to sell a
411 24 I lot off their own land they paid taxes on
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1 for thirty , forty years ? I mean , it doesn ' t
2 seem right . I mean , it just doesn ' t seem
3 right . Because , you know , a panel of
4 1 elected officials , appointed officials , say
5 that ' s the way it ' s got to be .
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s the way
7 1 it works . We ' re trying to get it so there ' s
8 no reason - -
9 SANDY KLINE : Is anybody happy with
I
10 this ?
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : What ?
411 12 SANDY KLINE : Is anybody happy
13 I with - - when you say a happy medium , we ' re
14 not happy . Is anybody actually totally
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15 happy with this the way it is ?
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' m not
I
17 saying - - no , I didn ' t mean that .
18 ( CHARLES SCHLOUGH : They ' re happy .
19 j SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re not happy .
20 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : We never said
21 f we were happy .
22 I COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : No .
I
23 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I was just
24 i saying we need to find common ground between
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1 1 what may be presented and what ' s going to
2 end up . I ' m not saying we ' re happy . I ' m
3 j just saying maybe we ' re too large at this
4 point or maybe we ' re too small . We need to
5 reconsider what we ' re doing . Especially I
6 don ' t think the Rural Residential and Rural
7 things are too large . Basically you ' re not
8 j going to be building - - you say an acre the
9 } Health Department will allow but it ' s a
10 little more than an acre .
11 (( JIM BROWN : Right .
12 ! SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re saying two
13 I acres without septics .
14 JIM BROWN : Even a two - acre lot I
15 wouldn ' t be opposed to . I ' m opposed to all
16 the road frontage , it splits it up quite
17 often where a farmer couldn ' t sell - - he
I
18 I could get a lot more lots out of his
19 property , you know .
20
COTINCILMAN WEATHERBY : Maybe ,
21 I George , you should explain to them why we - -
22 why we came up with this road frontage , what
23 was the initial reasoning for coming up with
24 this long road frontage .
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1 { GEORGE FRANTZ : The - - again , we ' re
2 searching here - -
3 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : Let me
4 ; interrupt one more thing . If you could
5 I explain that to them and then maybe we could
6 i get some feedback of how they ' d like to see
7 us accomplish the goal we ' re trying to get
8 ! to .
9 ' GEORGE FRANTZ : The goal here with
10 the 500 feet is to keep the road frontage
411 11 from being cut up into two small of lots so
12 ( that essentially the - - the scenery
y
i
13 disappears behind houses , okay ? Is that -
14 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Well , I think
15 i there are further issues that I ' ve at least
16
heard brought up to some extent from people
17 that have talked to me , such as just having
i
18 1 a ton of driveways going out onto roads and
19 l safety issues surrounding that and other
20 } things . So , it ' s not just aesthetics . That
21 1 is definitely a component that has been
22 i voiced and is in the comprehensive plan p n and
23 �
people care about , but there are other
24 related things .
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1 And also just the density of people
2 , that you ' re putting into the school district
3 ; and how that changes everything and how the
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4 1 road maintenance has to change and the taxes
5 and everything . It ' s a whole package of
6 I density related stuff .
7 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , my
8 recollection of the meeting where this was
9 decided , the primary push for it was to
10 preserve the scenic views from the road .
411 11 1 And I think people have been developing
12 � these other arguments , you know , as , you
13 i know , the discussions have continued for
14 what , this is three or four months now .
15 j SANDY KLINE : You know , I find
16 = somebody ' s house with nice flowers out in
17 front of it and looking - - their lawn
18 looking nice is just as pretty as looking at
19 a dead tree . I ' m sorry , but , you know ,
20 I there ' s nothing - - our road frontage is a
21 bunch of overgrown dead trees and vines and
22 I weeds . You can ' t see nothing but trees
23 I growing up . I mean , what kind of scenic
24 ! view is that ? The only good view is when we
w
1
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i
1 mow the lawn .
2 GEORGE FRANTZ : Or when farmers farm
3 the fields .
4 SANDY KLINE : They don ' t farm the
5 ii fields by the road .
6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , this is one of
7 the issues that has come up and it ' s come up
8 several times tonight , okay ?
9 I SANDY KLINE : I mean , your
10 ( definition of beauty and my definition of
i
11 beauty would be two different things . I
411 12 like looking at nice houses . I like looking
13 1 at peoples ' curtains on their windows . I ' m
r
14 ( sorry , but I don ' t , you know , what you like
15 ' and what I like are going to be two
16 I different things so we ' re not going to all
17 I just be able to please you just because you
I
18 ! want to look at trees . I didn ' t - - I don ' t
19 I pay taxes for you to enjoy my trees .
20 JIM BROWN : On a different related
21 subject , on my property that I have down
22 there if I decided that on these new laws
23 i that I can ' t operate my roadside stand on
24 I
the edge of the road and I wanted to move to
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411 Public Informational Meeting 79
11
1 my property which is in the Ag District , I
2 see there ' s a 2. 40 - foot - - square feet size
3 maximum size for a stand , so if I wanted to
4 j put a stand on my property , display all of
5 �1 my vegetables , I ' m limited to 240 square
6 feet ?
7 ( GEORGE FRANTZ : No .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s one of
9 ' the things that might not be imposed .
10 GEORGE FRANTZ : That ' s one , yeah , Ag
11 I & Markets has zeroed in on that .
411 12 ; JIM BROWN : I mean , my wagon now is
f
13 probably 170 and I could double that size
14 and sell twice as many vegetables .
15 GEORGE FRANTZ : This is , you know ,
I
16 1 there ' s also , again , in the Al District we
17 ( have the category called Agricultural
I�
18 f Commerce , okay , which would actually allow a
19 ; much larger farm stand .
20 JIM BROWN : Whether it be a
21 i
permanent structure or wagon ?
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , so this is - -
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23 JIM BROWN : Is that in here too ? I
24 didn ' t happen to see that .
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Public Informational Meeting 80
1 GEORGE FRANTZ : In the Al District ,
{
2 Ag Commerce , yeah .
3 I JIM BROWN : I didn ' t see that .
4 ' GEORGE FRANTZ : That would allow you
5 i to have a much larger operation in the farm
6 stand and I think that ' s something that Ag &
7 i Markets actually didn ' t pick up on so , but
8 that 240 square feet limitation is something
9 1 that they have got their hooks into and it ' s
10 something that we ' ve got to go back and look
I
11 at .
410 12 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It wouldn ' t be
i
13 enforcible for us to restrict that if the
14 person could actually be that big . If you
15 1 were selling four cucumbers and a couple
16 dozen ears of corn off your back lawn then
17 they would not consider that to be a large
18 amount thing that we could say yeah .
19 JIM BROWN : I just happened to - -
20 l that large area , I didn ' t happen to pick it
21 up . Maybe it was there .
22 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s one of
23 the things they said if it ' s actually needed
i
411 24 then we probably can disregard that , so , I
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1 j mean , it ' s logic .
2 Any other questions ? Comments ?
3 KURT Mc MILLEN : Kurt Mc Millen . I
4 got a comment for you . I can see what you ' re
5 i trying to propose here but I can see that
6 you ' re going to have many , I call them
7 nonconforming parcels , out there that are
8 too small , like Jim ' s . He ' s not - - doesn ' t
9 j have enough road frontage to conform with
10 the guidelines and there ' s going to be many
11 I out there , and. I hope that you left
411 i
12 provisions to deal with this , you know , and
13 loosely deal with these people and what they
14 , want to do with their property - -
15 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : A
16 . nonconforming - -
17 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - to make it fair
18 for everybody .
19 ! SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : A lot that is
20 present , no matter how big it is , it has to
21 be a legal lot - -
22 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - surveyed off
24 and whatever to be a nonconforming lot ,
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1 which means that you could do - - the use in
2 the zone you ' re in you can do on that lot .
3 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
4 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : And you might
5 need a variance for front yard setbacks or
6 some things , but you can build a house on
I
7 the lot or something like that .
8 , KURT Mc MILLEN : But I can see where
9 there ' s going to be a lot of instances like
10 1 Jim ' s , there ' s a lot of people out there
I
11 ; just like Jim and they may be in an Ag or
12 maybe Residential lot sizes are too small ,
13 frontage is too small , they don ' t have the
14 ; depth , they can ' t do anything with it , so I
15 ! guess I would expect that you people would
16 i work with them so that they can build a
i
17 i house on them , sell them - -
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s
19 1 definitely nonconforming lot .
1
20 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - and be fair .
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I hope there ' s
22 1 not as much as you think , because one of
23 the - -
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24 i KURT Mc MILLEN : From this map
1
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411 Public Informational Meeting 83
1 i there ' s a lot of them .
2 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , when I was
3 doing this map I also have the tax parcels
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4 f underneath , because that ' s one of the issues
5 that , you know , I have to address - -
6 I KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh yeah .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - because it ' s not
8 j in the interest of the Town to have a whole
9 i lot of these nonconforming lots , okay , so - -
10 I and for instance , there was a lot of debate
1i
-� early on about the red , the R2 zoning along
12 the lake , you know , and the reason that ' s
13 there is you don ' t want to zone that Rural
14 I Residential because it will put every one of
15 I those lots into legal nonconformity .
1
16 E KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
17 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : They ' re too small .
18 And see , some of the Rural Residential
19 I scattered throughout the Al Agricultural
20 i District , same thing , there ' s no sense in
I
21 zoning them Al Agricultural , they ' ve got
22 ! houses on them and , you know , plus you ' re
23 putting burden
P g a not only on the property
24 owners but on the Town , because I think the
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Public Informational Meeting 84
I
1 Zoning Board has a lot better things to do
2 than meet weekly to deal with nonconforming
3 1 lots .
4 KURT Mc MILLEN : But you say you
5 have tax maps for this that would define it
6 much better , you know , you may find some of
7 the smaller parcels have slipped through the
8 cracks - -
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again - -
t
10 1 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - are
ii nonconforming .
411 12 When will the people be notified
13 ( actually what they ' re going to be in ?
14 ! GEORGE FRANTZ : Land - - they ' ll be
15 I notified hopefully , you know , when - - once
16 . we adopt the map . I don ' t know if we can
17 notify everybody , you know , what their
18 zoning is . That would be a whole lot of ,
19 f you know , very costly time , but certainly
{
20 let people know that , hey , there ' s a zoning
21 map in Town Hall , you know , come look at it .
22 KURT Mc MILLEN : I guess what I ' m
23
getting at is if they don ' t know and there
24 is a problem and they come to you later and
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Public Informational Meeting 85
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1 { they say , well , jeez , I ' ve got a
2 three - quarter acre lot here and I ' m in an Al
3 i District , what do I do with it ? Maybe call
4 1 Brownie up and he can put his wagon on it .
5 i JIM BROWN : Small one .
6 KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah , small one .
7 What are you gong to do ? This is why I
8 think people are going to be notified what
9 they ' re actually going to be into . This is
10 a good general map and an overview .
11 I GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again , you ' re
411 12 � not seeing the property lines -
-
13 { KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - on the map but
15 � when I was drawing the map I could see them ,
I
16 : you know , it ' s a click of the mouse they
17 I come up .
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Probably when we
19 do - - actually do a map it will have the
20 property lines on the big map .
21 KURT Mc MILLEN : It might be a good
22 thing to have ahead of time so that people
23 i have a problem with what they ' re in - -
III 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We actually have
1
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1 one .
2 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - they can ask
3 questions as to why .
4 ' SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s some
5 i little ones over there . I think they have
6 parcels on them .
I
7 i KURT Mc MILLEN : This map
8 ( indicating ) ?
9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Is that the one ?
10 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : No , there ' s one
411 11 i just like that that has the parcels on it .
12 1 Hold up yours , Roxanne .
13 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It ' s like that
14 right there ( indicating ) .
15 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : It ' s not a
16 very useful scale if you ' re trying to look
17 j at very small detail like you ' re talking
18 i about .
I
19 I GEORGE FRANTZ : Did I have one of
20 those up full size ? I thought I did .
21 I There ' s a large one .
22 ' COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It ' s a - - try
23 and you can get a rough idea , but the scale
24
is hard to look at detail .
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411 Public Informational Meeting 87
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1 KURT Mc MILLEN : But still I guess
2 you ' re missing the point , the rough idea - -
3 i COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : No , that ' s
4 what I ' m asking .
5 1 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - when you slam
6 j the hammer and you make a decision on each
7 other - -
8 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : The final lines
9 f have to follow the property lines .
10 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
11 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Right . Usually
12 the zoning line will follow the property
13 line . What I ' m saying is this is what
I
14 I you ' ll end up with ( indicating ) .
15 j KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh , yeah .
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This has all the
I
17 I parcels on it so when you get the zoning on
18 it - -
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19 I JIM BROWN : Is West Shore Gas and
20 grocery in a commercial zone there ? It ' s
21 1 hard to see .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes .
23 J _ M I BROWN : How many acres ?
24 (
GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s actually the
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411 . Public Informational Meeting 88
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1 last -
2 ( Whereupon the reporter announced
3 I that she was off the record because of too
4 many conversations going on at once )
5 I COUNCILMAN ELLIS : I think - -
6 € GEORGE FRANTZ : Go ahead .
I
7 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Thank you for
8 that comment . That ' s really an important
9 ; point that you ' re pointing at . There has
10 been some talk about actually having a
411 11 I registry of nonconforming properties to help
12 ; with the issue that you ' re on . I don ' t know
13 what the challenge is in creating that . I
14 i don ' t think it ' s an easy task but certainly
15 ? if it was created it would then be possible
16 to notify people .
17 KURT Mc MILLEN :! i Sure . I ' m not
18 saying that any of this is an easy task
19
because you ' re not going to please anyone
20
I personally but you want to make it fair to
21 everybod
I y , you know , and try to - - try to go
22 with what the lot ' s wants or needs are ,
23 because the taxes have been paid and the
1
24
41) amount of land they own , what they intended
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Public Informational Meeting 89
to do with it when they first bought it , I
2 feel for Stanley , he ' s got hundreds of acres
3 and now you say , okay , he can only sell
4 certain size lots . Maybe he planned on
5 I making X number of dollars off it . Well ,
6 maybe you ' ve reduced that by the factor of
7 I ten , maybe ten times or , you know , you don ' t
8 i know .
9 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Now , West Shore
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10 I Grocery - -
11 1 JIM BROWN : Yes . Just curious as to
I
12 � how many acres were in that commercial
13 property at that point ?
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . The - - the -
,
15 i again , that - - it ' s there , there ' s a small
I
16 zoning district that would allow - - I ' m
17 I trying to find it , see if I have it here .
18 JIM BROWN : The reason I ask is
1
19 $
because there ' s been some health problems
20 there in the family and I don ' t think she ' s
I
21 ' aware of what ' s actually going on here .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : And that property
23 ! has a lot of issues including a good chunk
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24 1 of it being within the Route 89
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1 right - of -way , okay , so - - but the zoning
2 there is , you know , large enough to allow
3 I that business to continue and again to allow
1
4 for at least some expansion , redevelopment
I
5 of the site .
6 JIM BROWN : Was it on both sides of
7 j the road , do you recall ? Because there is a
8 field on the other side of the road .
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , the field on
10 1 the other side is part of Camp Comstock or
11 1 Bailiwick .
12 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No .
I
13 I GEORGE FRANTZ : No ?
14 JIM BROWN : It ' s about four or five
15 acres there that belong to the Fletcher
16 property .
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Anything on the east
18 side would be zoned - - then maybe I made a
19 I mistake . Okay , yeah , I ' m sorry . There ' s
20 I this field right between Comstock and
21 Bailiwick , okay , yeah .
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22 JIM BROWN : Right .
23 GEORGE FRANTZ : That is zoned Rural
24 Residential or proposed to be zoned Rural
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1 1 Residential .
2 f JIM BROWN : Okay . Like I say , I
3 don ' t think , you know , that they ' ve had some
4 I health problems in the family , I don ' t think
5 she ' s aware of what ' s going on at the
6 meetings . I thought she might like to know .
7 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : When I again looked
8 at what ' s out there now in terms of size
I
9 and , you know , how much to expand , I
10 actually had the tax parcel maps and it
11 really struck me , you know , how much of the
12 I canopy is actually right in - -
13 JIM BROWN : Oh , correct .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - the highway
15 right - of - way so . . .
16 STAN KOSKINEN : I got a question
17 that shoots this 500 frontage right in the
18 rearend . Suppose a guy owns a lot that ' s
19 400 feet wide and 800 feet deep and it ' s a
20 i
� separate lot and it ' s not in an Ag District
21 what can he sell it for ? He can ' t sell it
22 because it ' s not the 500 feet but there ' s
23 ! two 200 - foot building lots on that frontage .
411 1
24 � There ' s more than enough acreage in the
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1 whole thing to qualify for the three acres
2 for a lot .
3 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , you know ,
I
4 II again , from. what I ' ve heard this 500 feet is
5 ! still under discussion and right now as far
6 as arithmetic , again I don ' t want to get
7 j into specific properties , specific
8 � instances , because - -
9 STAN KOSKINEN : Well , you ' re going
10 to have to sooner or later .
11 GEORGE FRANTZ : Eventually , yes .
410 12 ; STAN KOSKINEN : Is there a variance ?
,
13 Can you apply for a variance ?
14 f GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , absolutely .
15 And if - - if there ' s no subdivision of that
i
16 lot it ' s a legal nonconforming lot . But
17 ! yeah , the variance process is , you know , a
,
18 mechanism open to all property owners . It ' s
19 supposed to be that safety valve for
20 1 instances like this .
21 1 STAN KOSKINEN : But there ' s still
22 the discretion of the Zoning Appeals Board
23 if they want you to do it or they don ' t want
24 you to do it , which still if they turned it
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1 1 down still takes away from what he actually
2 I could have sold two lots for instead of one .
3 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : It ' s definitely
4 J inconvenient to people but that ' s really the
5 sort of hands down - - that ' s the hands - down
6 j case , you know , that someone has a lot
7 i that ' s 400 by 800 deep and because of the
8 change it ' s nonconforming and , you know , if
j the ruling is 500 , I mean , you can hardly
10 I define a cleaner hardship case . That ' s one
11 that the zoning has got to deal with .
12 STAN KOSKINEN : If you ' re left with
13 j 200 you ' re fine .
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14 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Any other
15 j comments ?
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16 KURT Mc MILLIEN : I have one more .
17 ? The people owning more land that they really
18 desire in brush lots and cases and so on ,
19 i I ' d just like to bring up that there was an
20 I individual that was cited for having - - not
21 i in this Township , it was the Town of
22 i Enfield , he had some other problems , but in
23 1 addition to it they cited him for having
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24 ' non - maintained land , and I can ' t remember
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SPublic Informational Meeting 94
1 what the verbage actually was , but it was
4
2 about brush and tall grass on the property ,
3 and I wondered how you ' re going to address
4 j that .
5 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That he was
i
6 cited under the New York State Building
7 f) Code .
8 KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah , that was in
9 the paper . That was in writing . You read
10 it .
11 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know . I
12 know .
13 KURT Mc MILLEN : And they mentioned
14 ( tall grass and brush and that , you know ,
15 stuff that hasn ' t been maintained - -
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s true .
I
17 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - so . . .
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18 i SUflRVISOR AUSTIC : That wasn ' t
19 ! their Zoning Ordinance .
1
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , there was
21 ; an awful lot of violations in this County .
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22 KURT Mc MILLEN : I ' m just trying
23 a to bring it up to you .
24 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : And one of the
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411 Public Informational Meeting 95
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1 things that I ' ve said many times in the
2 course of , you know , putting together
3 this new Zoning Ordinance is that , you
4 know , if it ' s - - if it ' s not economically
5 viable as farmland it ' s going to grow up to
6 brush .
7 i KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh , sure .
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : And if it grows up
9 to brush there ' s no sense in it being zoned
10 Al Agriculture anymore .
11 KURT Mc MILLEN : But if you ' re
410 12 going to require a large lot size you ' re - -
13 I are you going to require them to mow all ten
14 acres of that lust to keep it aesthetically
15 pleasing ?
16 ! GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , there ' s
I
17 nothing in the zoning that would
18 require that . And as Doug said , in the
19 case you were talking about it was Building
20 i Code .
21 j KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah .
Ii
22 I GEORGE FRANTZ : But the , you know ,
23 again , I ' ve been dealing with doing rural
410 24 planning for twenty years and agriculture
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
411 I, Public Informational Meeting 96
1 and the biggest gg i ssue is the economic
2 1 viability of our farms - -
3 j KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
4 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - number one .
5 i Number two , just as big , is , well , as
6 ; you know , Stan , there ' s not a whole lot of
i
7 - young farmers out there standing in line to
8 j buy farms so - -- and I ' m at least aware of
9 that . But I do think , I mean , there ' s been
10 some pretty meaty ideas come out of this
11 meeting . It was , you know , small crowd but
12 a high ualit one , so . . .
q Y
13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I mean , we could
14 ( sit around and talk about this all night
15 1 amongst the seven or eight of us , which is
I
16 what we ' ve done for years , and we don ' t - -
17 ' we might not see everything the way
18 � everybody else sees it . We don ' t think
19 about what somebody else sees .
20 ; So , that ' s the idea of this whole
21
thing , so we ' ll have to take this into
22 I consideration before we get down and
23 decidina what the law ' s actually going to
24 1 be , we ' ll have to add the comments we ' ve
i
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
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Public Informational Meeting
- 97
1 i heard here and make some changes .
2 Thank you all for coming .
3 ( Whereupon the proceedings concluded
4 i at 8 : 40 PM )
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PDQ COURT REPORTERS
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1 STATE OF NEW YORK :
2 i COUNTY OF CORTLAND :
3
I
4
5 i I , MICHELE L . RICE , RPR , do hereby
6 certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate
7 transcription of the proceedings in the Matter of a
8 PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING , held in Trumansburg ,
9 1 New York , on the 24th day of February , 2004 .
I
10
11 I�
12
i
13
14 I �, ► L , ( a-J
A E
15 1 MICH LE L . RICE , RPR
Notary Public
16 I PDQ Court Reporters
746 Route 41
17 , Smithville Flats , NY 13841
( 607 ) 863 - 4911
18
19
20
21
22 '
23 1
24
1
1 STATE OF NEW YORK
2
3 IN THE MATTER OF A PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING
4
5 Re : TOWN OF ULYSSES DRAFT ZONING ORDINANCE
6
7
8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
9 PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING ;
10 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
11 Held at Trumansburg High School , Trumansburg ,
12 New York , on the 24th day of February , 2004 ,
13 commencing at 7 : 04 PM .
14
REPORTED BY : PDQ COURT REPORTERS
15 MICHELE L . RICE , RPR
Notary Public
16 746 Route 41
Smithville Flats , New York 13841
17 ( 607 ) 863 - 4911
18
APPEARANCES :
19 TOWN BOARD :
Supervisor Douglas Austic
20 Councilwoman Roxanne Marino
Councilman Don Ellis
21 Councilman Lee Scott
Councilman Robert Weatherby
22
Town Clerk Marsha Georgia
23
PLANNING BOARD :
24 Chairman Richard Coogan
Public Informational Meeting 2
1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We might as well
2 get started .
3 What we ' re going to do is Mr . Frantz
4 is going to give a brief - - a brief synopsis
5 of the Zoning Ordinance and I think maybe
6 most of you have seen it on the Internet or
7 have copies that you ' ve picked up at the
8 Town Hall or there are copies over there
9 ( indicating ) .
10 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : His
11 presentation is over there ( indicating ) .
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : His presentation
13 is over there if you want a copy of that to
14 follow along with ( indicating ) .
15 So , I think since this is relatively
16 small group then we ' ll let George explain
17 the general purpose and the ideas behind the
18 Zoning Ordinance and then open it up to
19 questions and take your comments . We ' re not
20 here to try and figure out what ' s wrong or
21 how it ' s wrong . We ' re just here to take
22 your comments to find out what you think
23 needs improving or what changes we might be
24 able to make to this Ordinance .
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 3
1 And we ' re having a stenographer take
2 notes , so if you want - - if you want to
3 speak maybe you ' d be better off coming up a
4 little closer so she can be sure to get what
It
5 you ' re saying for the record .
6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : And maybe give
7 your name .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : And give your
9 name .
10 With that , what ' s this all about ,
11 George ?
12 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . Way back when
13 when we got started essentially my goal was
14 to write for the Town of Ulysses a Zoning
15 Ordinance that would help protect
16 agricultural land ; help to channel
17 development into areas of the Town , I would
18 say intense - - more intensive residential ,
19 industrial , commercial development into
20 areas of the Town closer to Route 96 in the
21 Village of Trumansburg ; provide adequate
22 land for any - - actually more than any
23 anticipated future residential or commercial
24 development ; put development that - - in
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 4
1 places where it would best utilize the
2 investment into the - - in the new water line
3 up Route 96 to Jacksonville , okay ? That was
4 one goal .
5 Another goal was to provide really
6 clear definitions of the various terms that
7 are used in a Zoning Ordinance , and
8 unfortunately many times they sort of forget
9 to define certain terms so there ' s confusion
10 between residents , Code Enforcement
11 Officers , Zoning Officers , and sometimes
12 even on the various Town Boards . Not just
13 here in Ulysses but everywhere through New
14 York and Pennsylvania where I do my work .
15 Sort of hopefully lay out better
16 procedures for the Planning Board and Zoning
17 Board of Appeals . Again , sort of clarify
18 the situation so it ' s really easier for
19 everybody who has to go before the Boards ,
20 they know what they need to do , the Boards
21 know what they need to do , okay ? And also
22 provide some standards so that in the future
23 the commercial development , the industrial
24 development , that occurs is well described
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 5
1 and doesn ' t have major impacts on primarily
2 adjoining residential areas . Okay ?
3 So , they were sort of the overall
4 goal , and what I came up with was , excuse
5 me , a dozen or so new Zoning Districts . The
6 Al Agricultural , which is - - if you look on
7 the maps is the yellow and covers most of
8 the Town ( indicating ) .
9 The next Zoning District , the orange
10 on the maps , is the Rural Residential Zoning
11 District ( indicating ) . It ' s Residential
12 District , it also allows Agriculture . It
13 has lot sizes of two acres . Okay ?
14 A Moderate Density Residential
15 District , which is the red on the map , and
16 you can see it ' s around the Village of
17 Trumansburg and down in the southwest - -
18 southeastern corner of the Town
19 ( indicating ) . The idea is that they would
20 be the areas where in the future we can
21 direct the more intensive residential
22 developments in the Town . The lot sizes
23 are - - minimum lot size is set at 32 , 000
24 square feet , which is roughly three - quarters
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 6
1 of an acre . Okay ? And the idea is to have
2 people have major residential development
3 happen where there ' s either public water ,
4 municipal water , in some cases perhaps
5 municipal sewer , but at least in the future
6 there ' s also the potential for having
7 municipal water and municipal sewer in those
8 areas , okay ?
9 The next District , the Hamlet
10 District , is the purple on the map , and
11 essentially it ' s - - the large one is
12 centered on Jacksonville and there ' s a
13 smaller one there centered on Waterburg ,
14 okay ( indicating ) ? And the zoning there
15 allows a mix of retail and commercial
16 development - - excuse me , retail development
17 and residential development but more at
18 densities you see in traditional Upstate New
19 York villages . You can have lot sizes as
20 small as 6 , 000 square feet if you have
21 public - - probably if you have municipal
22 water and some sort of - - you ' re not going
23 to be able to do it with on lot septic but
24 there ' s a potential perhaps for , you know ,
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 7
1 larger developments that might have a
2 package treatment plant , or again at some
3 point in the future there may be the
4 possibility of having public or municipal
5 sewer service in Jacksonville , okay ?
6 Let ' s see , what ' s the next one ?
7 STAN KOSKINEN : Are we going to get
8 a Wal - Mart in Jacksonville ?
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : I doubt it .
10 STAN KOSKINEN : You said it ' s
11 retail .
12 GEORGE FRANTZ : The two sort of
13 specialized Districts that I ' ve proposed is ,
14 one , a Multiple Residence District , which
15 would allow apartment complexes subject to
16 site plan approval by the Planning Board and
17 also Town Board approval of the rezoning ,
18 okay ? And there ' s also some design
19 guidelines standards I should say that any
20 applicant would have to meet before they got
21 Town approval , things like additional
22 setbacks , how you have to design the
23 parking , how large the buildings can be , how
24 much of the lot can actually be developed
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 8
1 for that type of housing .
2 And then the other sort of special
3 district is the Manufactured Home Park
4 District , which on the map you can see
5 northwest of the Village the green area and
6 then there ' s the - - the mobile home park
7 there along Route 96 next to the old
8 Drive - Inn , okay ( indicating ) ? So , that
9 District sort of accommodates the two mobile
10 home parks within the Town and again it
11 gives the Town a little more leverage if
12 they want to expand , there ' s standards there
13 too just like for the Multiple Residence
14 zone that the owners would have to meet .
15 Next is the 131 Business District , and
16 these are fairly hard to see on the map
17 because essentially what we ' ve done is we
18 have one here northwest - - on the northwest
19 corner of the Village and then the largest
20 one is actually down here ( indicating ) . We
21 already have Maguire , we ' ve got Shur Save ,
22 and the smaller businesses . Along the south
23 side of 96 going down the highway we ' ve got
24 where Bar Angus is , Stover Lumber , the auto
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 9
1 repair shop ( indicating ) .
2 And we get into Jacksonville and
3 we ' ve got the area around Ulysses Square ,
I
4 continuing down Rascals and that small
5 commercial area , the old Spikes Barbecue
6 Restaurant . And again a little bit of area
7 on both sides of the highway there . And
8 then down Sleeping Bear , Paradise Cafe , the
9 Honda motorcycle place ( indicating ) . Along
10 96 right now they ' re all - - there ' s retail
11 development in these areas , the idea is to
12 make the areas large enough so there ' s also
13 possibility for future expansion if the
14 market requires or allows it , I should say .
15 Other places , Taughannock Farms Inn ,
16 the old Cuba Inn , an area north of it , the
17 old motel down south of Craft Road , and of
18 course the Glenwood Pines ( indicating ) .
19 KURT Mc MILLEN : What was the pink ?
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : This pink - -
21 actually these two pinks are actually the
22 Multiple Resident Zones that we ' re
23 establishing now . This is the True Haven
24 Apartments and this is the old motel in
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 10
1 Jacksonville that is now essentially
2 apartments ( indicating ) .
3 KURT Mc MILLEN : What is the
4 classification ?
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , it ' s pink on
6 this map , it ' s pink , yeah , it ' s the same .
7 A VOICE : And you said it ' s what
8 classification , zoning classification ?
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . The problem
10 is on the map it ' s showing a pink , on the
11 legend it ' s showing up this teal color , so
12 it ' s the RM Multiple Residence District ,
13 okay ? Sorry about that . Just noticed that .
14 The two pink areas , those are again
15 existing apartment complexes , small
16 apartment complexes that were proposing to
17 just , you know , zone them the Multiple
18 Residence District . Okay ?
19 Then two more . The Light Industrial
20 District , which would again allow light
21 industry well defined in the Zoning
22 Ordinance . Essentially it ' s industry where
23 you - - the businesses would fabricate
24 product , however the components , the raw
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 11
1 materials , that would be very limited , i . e .
2 they would be buying components from the
3 primary manufacturers or sources and then
4 assembling the product on site . It ' s not
5 like - - actually they ' re not even like that .
6 The old - fashioned plants where you had ,
7 let ' s say , a foundry to make the products
8 that would then be used in the manufacturing
9 process . What light industry is generally
10 defined as being is industry where all the
11 heavy - duty , dirty stuff is done elsewhere
12 and components are brought in and put
13 together on the site using really no more
14 than electric motors , okay ? And the Light
15 Industry Districts will also allow office
16 and research type businesses also , okay ?
17 And again , we ' ve got here at the
18 south end of Town , we ' ve already had the old
19 Babcock facility , Ithaca Millwork in that
20 area , Alpine Machine Shop , plus again room
21 for expansion , room for new businesses to
22 maybe come in and locate there , okay ?
23 And then up here , is this still
24 Agriculture ? Yeah , the Agriculture Complex
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
1
Public Informational Meeting 12
1 here , the corner of Park Road and Route 96 ,
2 so two Light Industrial areas .
3 And then finally the last district is
4 in the dark green on the map , it ' s the Park
5 and Recreation District , and it ' s like the
6 Rural Residential although it ' s intended to
7 more recognize - - it ' s , as you can see ,
8 including and adjacent to Taughannock Falls
9 State Park and the Cayuga Nature Center ,
10 okay ( indicating ) ?
11 So , that ' s the proposed zoning in a
12 nutshell . I think it ' s rather - - I could
13 put you guys to sleep in another ten minutes
14 going through the District regulations in
15 detail but I think , you know , I ' ve pretty
16 well covered . I think the best thing to do
17 is open it up to questions , you know , see
18 what your concerns are .
19 Actually , how many people have
20 actually read the Zoning Ordinance ?
21 ( Show of hands )
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . That ' s what I
23 sort of figured . It ' s , you know , it ' s - - I
24 don ' t think it would qualify as - - it ' s not
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 13
1 going to make the New York Times
2 Bestseller ' s List but as Zoning Ordinances
3 go though it ' s , I think from what I hear ,
4 it ' s been pretty well read , so , but . . .
5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Kurt , why don ' t
6 you - - I think the stenographer needs to
7 hear you , why don ' t you just come up front .
8 A VOICE : Give us your name .
9 KURT DUNNAM : This is quick and
10 brief . Kurt Dunnam , D - U - N - N - A - M . I live
11 over on Perry City Road .
12 The two things that I had brought up
13 I didn ' t see in the Ordinance and in fact I
14 did see it quickly reviewing it today . I
15 was a little concerned about and there may
16 be something in there now regarding
17 permanent foundations for structures . This
18 is something we hadn ' t considered previously
19 and if it hasn ' t been considered , I note
20 it ' s a rather late stage of the game , but I
21 brought this up about a year ago , I didn ' t
22 hear a reply on it , I would like to see
23 whether we can get something in there for
24 permanent foundations for structures such as
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 14
1 the doublewides and that sort of thing .
2 GEORGE FRANTZ : What are you
3 defining as permanent foundation ?
4 KURT DUNNAM : Well , you know , I ' m
5 not a contractor or an expert on it but I
6 would say something other than temporary
7 pilings or piers .
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : So , prefab walls or
9 something or a block wall ?
10 KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , I think so .
11 Something that provides some sort of wind
12 shielding . Also more permanent attachment
13 than that sort of thing . I leave details to
e
14 the experts .
15 But the other thing was on towers ,
i
16 this is very simple and straightforward , I
17 don ' t think there was an exception for
18 private , that is not commercial , towers
19 under 100 feet reading through the section
20 very quickly , that appears to be overlooked
21 for , you know , HAM radio operators . And
22 maybe you want to put up a 45 - foot tower or
23 TV antenna on it , which is a little unusual
24 in this day and age but it might be
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 15
1 something we ' d want to do at some point , but
2 there ' s no provision for doing that without
3 requesting a variance it looks like . Simple
4 change . That ' s it .
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . I think that
6 tele - - even HAM radio operators , it gets
7 into , you know , the Telecommunications Act
8 and - -
9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We discussed
10 this and I don ' t - - when we were discussing
11 personal towers for TV antenna type of thing
12 for your own home , there was something that
13 it wouldn ' t fall under the category of a
14 tower if I remember right .
15 KURT DUNNAM : Well , my impression is
16 it used to be that under 100 feet was
17 considered generally exempt , you know ,
18 whether it was commercial or non - commercial ,
19 and I think that sort of inadvertently fell
20 by the wayside .
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' ll have to - -
22 KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , you might want
23 to look at the language .
24 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : - - relook at it .
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 16
1 KURT DUNNAM : That would be the
2 concern . And in general I think
3 non - commercial use under 100 feet should be
4 exempt . No lighting ' s required under
5 federal law , FAA regulations , and generally
6 a tower that ' s below 100 feet is not a
7 visible use that presents a structural
8 hazard .
9 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I think I
10 remember that and it was something that it
11 wasn ' t freestanding , maybe it was attached
12 to the house or something .
13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We better look
14 back .
15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It had
16 something to do with whether it was
17 freestanding or not .
18 KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , I ' ll be glad to
19 talk with anybody who has questions about
20 specifics on that .
21 STAN KOSKINEN : My name is Stan
22 Koskinen . You want me to spell the last
23 name ?
24 COURT REPORTER : Please .
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 17
1 STAN KOSKINEN : Koskinen is
2 K - O - S - K - I - N - E - N . I ' ve been here since 1930 .
3 I wasn ' t born here , I came here and then we
4 didn ' t have zoning and everybody - - nobody
5 mistreated anybody , they had respect for
6 everybody ' s property . And my wife and I
7 haven ' t ever had a job , we ' ve always worked
8 in and developed our empire , which is now
9 500 acres . And we want the privilege of
10 selling building lots . That ' s my - - that ' s
11 our retirement . And 500 feet is much too
12 much . We have sold some over the years and
13 people don ' t want more than 200 feet . If
14 they want more than that they ' ll buy two
15 lots for their privacy , so why should it be
16 500 feet ? That ' s our retirement .
17 And another thing , if you have a flag
18 lot the zoning says you have to have 100 -
19 foot frontage the way I read it . Is that
20 right ?
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : In the proposal
22 there , yep .
23 STAN KOSKINEN : Why should it be 100
24 feet ? That ' s a half a building lot . People
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 18
1 don ' t want to mow all that stuff . The Town
2 and the County right - of - way is only three
3 rods wide , which is about 50 feet , why
4 should it be more than 50 feet to get back
5 to the flag lot ?
6 And another thing , there ' s
7 restrictions on how deep the lot should be .
8 It can ' t be - - it can ' t be too - - over so
9 many feet . Some lots don ' t fit that because
10 it runs into somebody else ' s property . Some
11 of them go farther back . You can still get
12 your three acres out of it by going far
13 enough back , no problem .
14 That ' s my own personal property . I ' m
15 probably one of the few individuals that has
16 that .
17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That has
18 personal property ? I don ' t know , Stan .
19 GEORGE FRANTZ : Do we still have the
20 maximum lot depth ?
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s still in
22 the zoning . That ' s what we ' re here for . We
23 don ' t - - we came to a point where we had
24 talked about this stuff amongst the Planning
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 19
1 Board and the Town Board several meetings
2 and we just came to a point where we didn ' t
3 know what we wanted to do - - we knew what we
4 wanted to do but we didn ' t know what the
5 people are going to think about what we want
6 to do , so that ' s what we ' re here for , to try
7 and find out if what we ' re thinking would
8 work as to what you ' re thinking . So , what
9 we ' re doing is we ' re trying to take comments
10 to see your opinions and then we ' ll have to
11 go back and think what we were doing again
12 and see what we can come up with to
13 accommodate .
14 STAN KOSKINEN : My feeling is that
15 people that are sitting at the head table
16 should not make decisions for people that
17 are paying the taxes .
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s why we ' re
19 asking you , so we can - -
20 STAN KOSKINEN : I just told you .
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right .
22 STAN KOSKINEN : If I have a buyer
23 that wants 200 feet of frontage and that ' s
24 all he wants I should have the right to sell
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 20
1 him that . If he wants 300 feet I should
2 have that right . If he wants to buy that
3 it ' s a mutual agreement between two parties .
4 And if you have 500 feet of frontage it ' s
5 going to grow up to brush because modern
6 people both have to work to make a living to
7 make the mortgage payments and they ' re not
8 going to have time to take care of it .
9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Done ?
10 STAN KOSKINEN : I ' m done on that
11 subject .
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right .
13 SANDY KLINE : Okay . My name is
14 Sandy Kline and we have the property right
15 here , everything here from here to here to
16 here ( indicating ) . Everybody around us is
17 Residential . We don ' t have a farm . We
18 don ' t own any tractors and we don ' t do any
19 agricultural work . We could but we don ' t .
20 Well , we have some of the best prime land
21 sitting there but people can ' t afford the
22 taxes that you want . You people charge a
23 fortune in taxes on that prime road frontage
24 for years and years and years . Now you ' re
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 21
1 telling us we can ' t sell it unless we break
2 it up into 500 - foot lots . Well , there are
3 people that want the property , they don ' t
4 want to pay 500 foot , they don ' t want that
5 much property . And why is it everybody else
6 around us is Residential but. we ' re
7 Agriculture in our own little corner there ?
8 It doesn ' t make any sense . Who decides it ' s
9 Agricultural or Residential ? We just live
10 there , we don ' t farm it .
11 GEORGE FRANTZ : It was - - again ,
12 it ' s proposed for Agricultural because - -
13 SANDY KLINE : There ' s no work barn
14 on anyplace . There ' s no tractors .
15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Is the land being
16 farmed ?
17 SANDY KLINE : We rent it out for
18 $ 300 a year just so it helps pay the taxes
19 on it , but we can stop doing that .
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , you can stop
21 doing it but again - -
22 SANDY KLINE : We could put in a pig
23 farm or we could open it up for some more
24 businesses , or don ' t you guys want
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 22
1 Trumansburg to grow at all ? Do you want it
2 to just stay the way it is ? It ' s not
3 like - - it ' s on a main highway . It ' s not
4 out of - - it ' s not like you ' re on a back
5 road or anything . I mean , it ' s one of the
6 prime pieces of front Residential land
7 you ' ve got left on 96 that ' s still vacant
8 and it ' s up for sale .
9 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Can I ask , do
10 you have an Ag Assessment on your property ?
11 SANDY KLINE : Pardon me ?
12 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Do you get an
13 Ag Assessment on the taxes on that property
14 right now ?
15 DAVE KLINE : Do we get a what ?
16 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : An Agriculture
17 Assessment .
18 DAVE KLINE : I don ' t believe so .
19 SANDY KLINE : No , they just mailed
20 us - -
21 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : You get a
22 reduction in the assessment of the property
23 if it ' s Agricultural ?
24 SANDY KLINE : No , not at all .
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 23
1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Just asking .
2 SANDY KLINE : We pay for prime road
3 frontage .
4 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But I don ' t
5 think road frontage - - does road frontage
6 cost any more in taxes than the rest of the
7 property ?
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It is if they - -
9 I don ' t know .
10 SANDY KLINE : Yes .
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If they
12 determine that it might be commercial or
13 something it ' s a possibility .
14 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : If they
15 determine it ' s a viable building lot , yes ,
16 possible building lots , yes .
I
17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If you were to
18 subdivide the piece into 300 - feet lots even
19 though nobody were there they would assess
20 you differently than it would be one big
21 piece .
22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Oh , okay . But
23 it ' s not divided that way right now ?
24 DAVE KLINE : What ' s that ?
PDQ COURT REPORTERS
Public Informational Meeting 24
1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Your
2 property ' s not divided now so you ' re not
3 paying a higher assessment right now just
4 because it ' s road frontage ? I ' m just trying
5 to clarify that . I ' m unaware - -
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I don ' t think
7 it ' s just because road frontage .
8 DAVE KLINE : Well , I guess what
9 she ' s saying is why are we - - we ' re not
10 paying taxes on what you ' re calling a
11 property Agricultural as being paid as a
12 Business and now you get this guy out of
13 Town that comes in , he says all of a sudden
14 this is Agricultural .
15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Oh , so it ' s
16 all Business right now ?
1
17 DAVE KLINE : It ' s Residential
18 Business .
19 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Business for
20 all of your property ?
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : The County
22 Assessment Department in theory assesses
23 properties based on comparable sales , i . e .
24 sale of property that is comparable to that ,
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1 and they are also supposedly taking into
2 account zoning .
3 I think one of the issues was zoning
4 in the Town of Ulysses now and one of the
5 things that this Zoning Ordinance is trying
6 to address is that , you know , Business , you
7 can have a business along Route 96
8 practically anywhere and so County
9 Assessment is at - - could be looking at all
10 the property along the road as potentially
11 developable for Business .
12 DAVE KLINE : But you ' re telling me I
13 can ' t put a business there .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : I have proposed a
15 zoning map for the Town Board to decide .
16 DAVE KLINE : Well , you made a
17 statement here with these - - the blue areas
18 that you made it big enough for future
19 growth . Where is it big enough for future
20 growth where mine is ?
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , yours I think
22 if it ' s where the body shop is - -
23 DAVE KLINE : Yes .
24 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - I believe that ' s
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1 allowed for about doubling of the amount of .
2 That was generally my rule of thumb .
3 DAVE KLINE : Which one of these is
4 right ( indicating ) ? They don ' t agree . You
5 got on one of them it says minimum lot three
6 acres and then the other one says ten acres .
7 Minimum frontage 500 , on the other one it
8 says 1 , 000 .
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . What I did ,
10 the one that I did last week I did not
11 include the provisions in - - what is it - -
12 4 . 6 ?
13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This one ' s
14 probably closer ( indicating ) .
15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Use this one
16 ( indicating ) .
17 DAVE KLINE : So , you ' re going from
18 minimum 500 frontage , now it ' s got to be
19 1 , 000 frontage ?
20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , 500 foot is
21 what ' s being proposed .
22 DAVE KLINE : Pardon ?
23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : 500 foot one is
24 the one that ' s being proposed at this point .
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1 DAVE KLINE : You just said this one
2 was , this one ' s 1 , 000 ( indicating ) .
3 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : That was for
4 Agricultural lots , not Residential lots .
5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s an
6 Agricultural lot . A Residential lot is less
7 in the Ag District .
8 DAVE KLINE : So , let ' s say this
9 thing goes through and our whole frontage
10 here is Ag 1 . Is that saying you can ' t ever
11 change it to business or anything ?
12 GEORGE FRANTZ : No .
13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , it ' s not
14 saying that . You could request .
15 DAVE KLINE : Then we ' d have to go in
16 front of the Board and public hearings
17 and - -
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Or , you know ,
19 there ' s always the possibility , we probably
20 will review this in a certain number of
21 years and maybe we ' ll determine that it
22 wasn ' t correct the way we had done it the
23 first time . You do have some commercial on
24 your place and it ' s bigger than it is there
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1 now .
2 DAVE KLINE : It doesn ' t look it .
3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , it ' s hard
4 to see it on the map . It is a tad bigger .
5 DAVE KLINE : Does anybody here know
6 what a Section 305 - A is , the Agricultural
7 use is , the law ?
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I know .
9 DAVE KLINE : What is it ?
10 GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s the section
11 that gives the Department of Ag & Markets
12 certain powers . It ' s the section that sets
13 up the Agricultural District Program .
14 DAVE KLINE : What does it mean so I
15 can understand it ?
16 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , I ' m not an
17 attorney and I don ' t have the law memorized ,
18 but you can go to the website and read it .
19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It establishes
20 the Department of Ag & Markets and how they
21 operate it . Then you go on to other
22 sections and it will tell you what - - what
23 some of the regulations may be or what they
24 are . But it ' s the - - it ' s the establishing
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1 law for Ag & Markets , 305 is .
2 DAVE KLINE : In this article you had
3 in the paper it says that the Board could
4 reserve 50 , 000 to 75 , 000 in the Town ' s
5 budget to pay for development rights and
6 preserve space since the Board cannot tell
7 people how to use their land .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I didn ' t - -
9 there ' s a misquote there but similar to
10 that , right . What ' s your question ?
11 DAVE KLINE : Exactly what does that
12 mean ?
13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : What that means
14 is - - do you want me to answer this ?
15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , I can .
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right .
17 Purchase and development rights , say for
18 some reason it was decided that a certain
19 section of land had an important reason that
20 we should preserve the open space interest
21 or the view or something like that . We
22 decided you have a - - through hearings and
23 meetings you decide that this particular
24 parcel of land is important to preserve for
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1 some reason or another , so what you could do
2 then is purchase the development rights ,
3 which means once you do that you pay the
4 landowner a certain amount of money for the
5 rights to develop on that piece of property .
6 Town then owns the rights . Or you could
7 also do this through State programs or land
8 trust , those types things .
9 What happens is once whoever owns the
10 development rights on that piece of land ,
11 the owner is being paid for that and in
12 return he ' s saying he won ' t develop it so
13 the land will stay as is . But generally
14 speaking in this area it becomes hard to buy
15 development rights unless the value of the
16 land is fairly high . I mean , you ' re not
17 going to accept a lower amount than - - for
18
your development rights if you feel the land
19 is higher and the land price wouldn ' t
20 necessarily be higher unless there were a
21 lot of people seeking to buy the land for
22 some reason .
23 So , that ' s what it is . It ' s not - -
24 you still own the land , it ' s just that you
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1 can ' t - - you have agreed to not build a
2 house or build a business or something on
3 that land to preserve it for some reason
4 that you decide .
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : One of the problems
6 with zoning is , number one , it ' s a pretty
7 clumsy way of regulating land use . Any
8 planner will tell you that . And in some
9 communities they ' ve been able to preserve ,
10 protect land that the community thinks is
11 worth keeping out of development , out of the
12 market completely , okay ? And the way
13 they ' ve done is stepping in and buying the
14 right to develop the land from the
15 landowner . In agricultural areas it ' s been
16 quite successful , especially where there ' s
17 an awful lot of development pressure .
18 It does a couple of things . One , it
19 takes the farmland out of competition with
20 developers because the municipality has
21 essentially purchased the development rights
22 and the land - - the use of the land is
23 limited to agriculture , okay , so it will , of
24 course , favorably generally affects - - it
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1 lowers the taxes , because again , it ' s not
2 being taxed as development land because it
3 doesn ' t have any development potential .
4 The other benefit of it is that when ,
5 you know , a farmer is facing retirement it ' s
6 a lot easier for a younger farmer to step in
7 and buy it because the younger farmers are
8 not competing with the developers to buy
9 that farmland .
10 The real problem here in Tompkins
11 County , and in fact I did a study for the
12 County two years ago , and as Doug said ,
13 it ' s - - our problem is the land values in
14 Tompkins County are really too low to make
15 purchase and development rights attractive
16 to a landowner , okay ? It ' s - - nobody ' s
17 going to give up their development rights
18 for $ 600 an acre , which is - - I think that ' s
19 what I recall being the average cost , and
20 it ' s why even in the , you know , in the Town
21 of Ithaca , which has had a program now for
22 four or five years , they don ' t have any
23 takers , you know , and they have the highest
24 land values in the County . Because the
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1 problem is the value of agricultural land
2 is - - the value of land for agriculture is
3 here and it ' s value for development is about
4 here ( indicating ) . So , all the
5 Municipalities can really pay is about maybe
6 40 percent the total value of the land so
7 we ' re just sort of stuck unfortunately .
8 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Can I ask what
9 your - - what would you prefer - - just - -
10 this is just a question - - the zoning to be
11 for your property ? Are you arguing that it
12 should be Business like the garage around
13 it , your whole piece ? Or I ' m not quite
14 clear what you ' re - -
15 DAVE KLINE : I have 1 , 000 feet of my
16 Business that they gave me , which was 300
17 feet , now he ' s saying I got twice as much ,
18 but I ' d like to see it in writing . You take
19 that 1 , 000 feet , you get four building lots
20 out of there , nice building lots , real deep
21 ones .
22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : So , you ' re
23 talking about for Residential , you ' re not
24 talking about for the Business ?
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1 DAVE KLINE : I ' m retiring in
2 twenty - one days , I ' m moving away from here .
3 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Right , so
" 4 you ' re arguing Residential , you want it to
5 be High Density Residential ?
6 DAVE KLINE : If you guys got these
7 limits on now it ' s 1 , 000 feet I can only
8 sell one building lot .
9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If it weren ' t in
10 the Ag District it would be less . Are you
11 requesting that it be R - - Rural
12 Residential ?
13 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That ' s what
14 I ' m asking . You want it to be a - -
15 SANDY KLINE : We ' re paying
16 Residential fees for our taxes .
17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I think that
; ;
18 would give you 250 feet .
19 SANDY KLINE : Yes , everybody around
20 us is Residential .
21 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : There ' s a big
22 huge field across the street from your
23 property .
24 DAVE KLINE : But that will never be
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1
I
Public Informational Meeting 35
1 sold .
2 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : You can ' t know
3 that . I ' m just saying that you have that
1
4 part and then there ' s a big field across
5 from your property , right ?
6 SANDY KLINE : Yeah , that belongs to
7 Stover ( phonetic ) .
8 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Okay .
9 DAVE KLINE : My feeling is that
10 whole 96 corridor should be opened up to
11 Residential and Commercial . Get some
12 businesses in there . Get some jobs in
13 there .
14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you ' re
15 asking for Residential ?
16 DAVE KLINE : Other than what we are
17 now . I ' d like the option to be able to put
18 another business in .
19 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That wouldn ' t
20 be Residential then , Business .
21 DAVE KLINE : You said you left room
22 for expansion on businesses , either / or .
23 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But it would
24 be a different zone .
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1 DAVE KLINE : This area needs
2 businesses .
3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You have to
4 consider the two - - the Stover and your
5 place and I think - - I don ' t know how it
6 ended up . Dick , how did it end up ?
7 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : Potentially we
8 looked at it as being existing what they
9 are , PED ' s , and that ' s how we kept it .
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We could
11 consider that . Would you want to be
12 Residential or Business ?
13 DAVE KLINE : Mix .
14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Mix .
15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I don ' t think
16 that ' s - - so , if it ' s a Business , George or
17 Doug , or I haven ' t been at this for the
18 whole two years , so if it ' s Business can you
19 put a residence there ?
20 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : No .
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Not in the
22 Business Zone , but if it were next to it you
23 could .
24 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Okay .
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , prior - - part
2 of the problem with these maps is they ' re
3 showing the whole Town so you ' re looking at
4 that and , yeah , you ' re probably seeing 300
5 feet but I ' m sure it ' s 600 plus feet .
6 DAVE KLINE : That ' s what I ' d like to
7 know .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : When we get the
9 map done or closer to being done it will be
10 more to scale and the lots may be on - - each
11 individual lot will be designated on there
12 as it is on some of the other maps so you
13 can actually see where you are in relation
14 to the neighbor . You can ' t tell now because
15 it ' s big blurb .
16 DAVE KLINE : Well , that picture of
17 my land right there , I got a survey map down
18 to the house I ' ll give you .
19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Do you have that
20 little map ?
21 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That has the
22 parcel - - the land parcels marked on it ?
23 DAVE KLINE : Yes , and your little
24 dot looks just like my 300 feet that ' s on my
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Public Informational Meeting 38
1 map .
2 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right .
3 That ' s a good - - we ' ll look at that .
4 DAVE KLINE : Now , if it ' s 600 feet
5 that will be fine , but it looks like 300
6 feet to me .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , we ' ll look at
8 it .
9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , we will
10 consider that , Mr . Kline .
11 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : My name ' s Charles
12 Schlough , S - C - H - L - O - U - G - H . Question about
13 that Hamlet District . I see that what ' s
14 proposed is to encourage a lot more dense
15 development of a variety of sorts , both
16 Commercial , Retail and Residential . And one
17 of the ways to accomplish the Residential
18 side is to increase multiple units . I know
19 that two - family units are available in most
20 of the Residential Districts and in the
21 Hamlet in order to have multiple residences ,
22 which I presume means four - to six - unit
23 apartment buildings , if I read it correctly
24 it says that you can do that with site plan
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Public Informational Meeting 39
1 approval but it has to be - - the Residential
2 units have to be on the second floor over
3 the Retail or other Commercial . Is that the
4 correct reading of it ?
5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah . The idea is
6 that , you know , to hopefully encourage , you
7 know , the development of apartments over
8 retail stores , okay ? So that ' s within the
9 Hamlet District , that ' s where you could have
10 apartments , okay ?
11 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : But how is it
12 proposed to increase the Residential Density
13 Zone for that Hamlet if you have to bring in
14 Retail and Commercial with Residential ? I
15 mean , why can ' t you build an apartment ?
16 GEORGE FRANTZ : The way you can
17 build apartments would be if you have a
18 proposal , a site plan and the like , you can
19 then go to the Town Board and request that
20 they zone the land for the Multiple
21 Residence .
22 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Why would there
23 be a requirement of that additional step
24 instead of allowing it at the onset ?
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Public Informational Meeting 40
1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , at this point
2 the thinking is , you know , it gives better
i 3 control to the Town in terms of where it
4 would like such development , okay ? Because
5 a rezoning is a legislative action , you
6 know , at the discretion of the Town Board .
7 If you were allowed this type of development
8 in the Hamlet District even by special
9 permit it ' s a lot harder for the Town , if
10 it ' s not a good idea , to turn it down .
11 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , it seemed
12 to me that with the very specifications for
13 lot sizes and density setback and all these
14 things that you could define in the Zoning
15 Ordinance at the beginning what you would
16 require if there were to be a proposal for
I
17 or an intention to use the site for a
18 four - unit apartment house . There are a lot
19 of specifications for all kinds of uses but
20 you ' re - - you ' re trying to encourage
21 Residential development , one of the
22 conditions under which that would be
23 desirable or allowed .
24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If I may ,
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1 there ' s a way around this , because it
2 doesn ' t necessarily exclude townhouse
3 condominium lots . In other words , if you
4 add common wall apartment .
5 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : But it requires
6 that there be a Retail or Commercial - -
7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s if you
8 have an apartment . These are separate
9 maybe .
10 GEORGE FRANTZ : You can have
11 through , for instance , use of cluster
12 subdivision , okay , you can actually look at
13 the Hamlet Zoning District as saying one
14 dwelling for every 6 , 000 square feet of land
15 and if you owned a one acre of land
16 essentially that ' s seven dwelling units ,
i
17 okay ? You could fit seven townhouse
18 dwelling units on about - - well , actually
19 about 6 , 000 square feet of land I think , is
20 that - -
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : ( Nods head )
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : And the remainder of
23 the parcel could be for the driveways ,
24 garages , and the like .
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1 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I didn ' t see any
2 language about townhouses . Is there a
! 3 definition that makes them different from an
I
4 apartment building ?
5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' ve seen the
6 definitions in the Ordinance .
7 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Because I didn ' t
8 see any mention of townhouses within the
9 Hamlet .
10 GEORGE FRANTZ : And the reason you
11 didn ' t , because townhouse is a style of
12 architecture - -
13 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - not a type of
15 ownership .
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s not
17 Multiple Residence .
18 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : It ' s not Multiple
19 Residence . Is townhouse a form of
20 ownership ?
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , a townhouse is a
22 type of dwelling unit , okay ?
23 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : It: ' s a design
24 feature .
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , attach homes
2 generally in a row , okay ? A townhouse could
3 be six dwellings attached together on six
1
4 different lots .
5 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : So , you ' re saying
6 a townhouse would be permitted under what
7 you ' re proposing ?
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : Townhouses , yeah ,
9 are permitted .
10 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I ' ll have to read
11 it . I didn ' t come across that .
12 GEORGE FRANTZ : In fact I think in
13 the definitions we may have a definition for
14 townhouse just to clarify the fact that , you
15 know , we look at it as just being a type of
16 architecture outside of , you know , who owns
17 what .
18 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , I thought a
19 townhouse was a form of Multiple Residence ,
20 so I ' m confused by the terminology .
21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Each little
22 section in a townhouse , say it ' s two story
23 or whatever - -
24 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right .
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1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - each little
2 section is owned by somebody , it ' s not
3 rented .
4 You move to the other side of the
5 wall , this person owns this other , so it ' s a
6 form of ownership actually .
7 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , that ' s
8 condominiums , separate ownerships .
9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Same thing ,
10 except in a townhouse you own the land
11 underneath the building . It ' s kind of
12 weird . In a condominium you own the
13 building , you don ' t own the land underneath
14 it .
15 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : So , you ' re
16 looking for owner - occupied densities rather
I
17 than - -
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah , right .
19 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Charles , I didn ' t
20 help write it but I like seeing that there ,
21 that mention that the Residential
22 development above the Retail is allowed ,
23 because there ' s several very nice little
24 residential buildings , you know , the old - -
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1 like the old store on the corner and so on
2 that might survive if they had economically
3 viable other use in them , so I think it ' s
4 good that it ' s there but it ' s not trying to
5 be directive .
6 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I think it ' s an
7 attractive idea but I don ' t see it in
8 practice very much in Tompkins County and I
9 think you ' re going to have a difficult time
10 finding buyers in that configuration .
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That may be
12 true .
13 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , I think , yeah ,
14 we may have a tough time finding people who
15 , want to , you know , take , let ' s say , one of
16 the old buildings in Jacksonville and rehab
17 it with retail or office on the ground floor
18 and apartment in the second floor , but I
19 think it ' s important that the Town allow the
20 option , because in most communities they
21 don ' t allow it .
22 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , that ' s
23 fine . That ' s fine . In the process you ' re
24 excluding what is commonly a form of
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Public Informational Meeting 46
1 developing higher densities and Multiple
2 Residency in a Hamlet or Village , so that ' s
3 what you want .
4 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you ' re
5 saying essentially we should consider also
6 allowing three - , four - , five - apartment
7 buildings ?
8 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : With design with
9 some kind of a limit in terms of the impact
10 that you ' re willing to allow , but at least
11 allow conventional types of methods for
12 increasing Multiple Residence or higher
13 density residencies in the Hamlet . If you
14 can allow one unit per 6 , 000 feet why just
15 describe it as - - in this very , very
16 unconventional or I should say uncommon ways
17 of using that property . People that live in
18 the Hamlet it has to be important to them
19 and if you want - -
20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I see your
21 point .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I think - - let
23 me just to help maybe hopefully help clarify
24 it , but is your point that we need to maybe
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1 look at something that is somewhere between
2 the owner - occupied home on 6 , 000 square feet
3 and the apartment complex ?
4 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Yes .
5 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : George , I think
6 this came about because at one point we had
7 actually divided the Hamlet into a Hamlet
8 Business District and a Hamlet Residential
9 District and it was the Hamlet Business
10 District where we said businesses on the
11 first floor , residence on the second floor ,
12 giving it a more business feel , and then we
13 said no when we merged the Hamlet together ,
14 and I think this is a holdover .
15 PEG COOGAN : I ' d like to say - - Peg
16 Coogan from Jacksonville . I think you had
17 come to one of the Jacksonville Community
18 Association Meetings and you were asking for
19 feedback from residents and I think one of
20 the concerns was that a big multi - unit
21 apartment building might be inappropriate
22 for the Hamlet whereas something more like
23 attached roadhouses would have more of a
24 feel for 19th Century - - 19th Century
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1 community , which is what we ' re trying to
2 preserve there . And I don ' t know if there
3 are other options besides townhouses versus
4 five - story apartment buildings . I grew up ,
5 it was kind of nice and I have a version to
6 them now , but I think that ' s part of where
7 that came from was the rest of us not
8 wanting huge - -
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : If you ' re interested
10 in going back and seeing if there are
11 examples elsewhere - -
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' ll see what
13 we can find for examples . We ' d have to
14 really consider what - - I can see his point ,
15 if you can ' t get a commercial - - if you
16 can ' t get somebody that wants the commercial
17 space why are you going to build a building
18 and have apartments upstairs ?
19 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : If you were
20 going to have apartments would it have to go
21 to site plan review so that you could sort
22 of assure by the Planning Board ' s review of
23 the way ; it was designed that you wouldn ' t
24 have some , you know , I don ' t know ,
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1 seven - story tall thing that ' s not
2 appropriate for that Hamlet ?
3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s a height
4 limit of 40 feet .
5 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But I ' m just
6 saying , would there be site plan review just
7 triggered right away , have to be anyway ?
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah .
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , for the
10 proposed multi - family district .
11 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It is now ?
12 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes .
13 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : And so if
14 apartments were included in that somehow or
15 it was expanded it would still have to be
16 reviewed by the Planning Board ?
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah .
18 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : The plan for
19 it and the layout of everything and the
20 overall size and how it fit into the
21 community , the space around it ?
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : We ' d have to , you
23 know , again , yeah , look at this concept ,
24 which is again something between the single -
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1 family home and the big apartment complex .
2 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Right .
i 3 GEORGE FRANTZ : But I would suspect
4 that if we come up with something it would ,
5 yeah , be subject to site plan approval or
6 something .
7 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : So , I was just
8 making the point for people that there ' s
9 another level of check too beyond just the
10 Zoning which is the Planning Board having
11 control over how it ' s done .
12 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Let me simplify
13 my request . That didn ' t seem to be very
14 clear . I think the language that you have
15 now could be changed and satisfy me if it
16 eliminated the 100 percent requirement that
17 there be a retail or commercial ground floor
18 under any apartment .
19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Under any
20 apartment ?
21 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right .
22 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you might
23 have one - -
24 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : In other words ,
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1 thereby allow Multiple Residence within this
2 District subject to site plan approval given
3 the measurements , stipulations , and all
4 those statistics that you want to require ,
5 heighth , density coverage of the ground ,
6 allow something more conventional . I mean ,
7 some nice townhouses that have , you know , a
8 Georgetown kind of look about them , two
9 floors is fine and rentable townhouses are
10 just as attractive as owner - occupied
11 townhouses . And I just think if you loosen
12 it up and accomplish more of what you ' d like
13 to see the Hamlet look like .
14 DAVE KLINE : Does Alex ever sit in
15 on any of this ?
16 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : He usually
17 does .
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : He usually does .
19 He must be somewhere else tonight .
20 DAVE KLINE : Because we looked into
21 doing apartments over commercial and
22 Tompkins County Fire Code it just almost
23 prohibits it costwise .
24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , the new
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1 Codes would allow it . This one ' s a lot
2 more - -
H 3 DAVE KLINE : You got to have
4 sprinkler systems . You got to have fire
5 walls .
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Sometimes it
7 depends on the size . You would need
8 sprinklers in the commercial .
9 DAVE KLINE : If you find people to
10 invest money - -
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : The new Codes
12 are different . They took over January 1st
13 of this year .
14 DAVE KLINE : And you ' re saying
15 they ' re less restrictive ?
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yep . Sprinklers
17 will get you away with a lot so if you
18 happen to be in Jacksonville where you had
19 water or somewhere else you could do a lot
20 of things that you wouldn ' t have been able
21 to do before .
22 DAVE KLINE : Yeah , but that ' s - - the
23 sprinklers are expensive .
24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , maybe . I
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1 don ' t know .
2 JIM BROWN : My name ' s Jim Brown .
3 I ' ve got about 80 acres here in the Town of
4 Ulysses . I guess the first thing I ' d like
5 to say , I ' d like to see some of these
6 meetings better publicized . I don ' t think
7 it ' s because people aren ' t concerned . I
8 don ' t think people know about them . And
9 just because it wasn ' t advertised in the
10 paper , if you go down through Trumansburg
11 and ask people on the street what the new
12 zoning is they don ' t have a clue .
13 I mean , why not take a copy of this ,
14 you spent so damn much money , and mail a
15 copy to some of the people , the taxpayers ?
16 You ' ve hired the planner , you ' ve taken - -
, ,
17
you want to take bus tours and you have all
18 these meetings , but nobody knows about
19 what ' s going on . I mean , can ' t you just
20 make people more aware ? I think you ' d have
21 a room full of people here if more people
22 knew .
23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I had a mistake
24 this time . I would have - - we didn ' t get it
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1 in .
2 JIM BROWN : The first thing - -
t 3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : The paper didn ' t
4 publish our thing .
5 JIM BROWN : Okay . That ' s probably
6 not your fault or Marsha ' s fault .
7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s her fault .
8 JIM BROWN : Nobody really knows
9 what ' s going on .
10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know .
11 JIM BROWN : I talked to a fellow , he
12 have several properties here in the Town of
13 Ulysses here the other day , he didn ' t have a
14 clue that this was coming about .
15 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re having
16 three more meetings . This one got away from
17 us .
18 JIM BROWN : One of the first things
19 I ' m upset about is this : I ' ve got land in
20 the Agricultural District down here and ten
21 acres in 1 , 000 feet of road frontage . Come
22 on , folks . I mean , why ten acres in an
23 Agricultural District ? I mean , that ' s my
24 retirement . I don ' t have a 401 - K , you know ,
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1 Tier I retirement like some of you folks
2 have . You ' re telling me that I got to
3 have - - I got to sell ten acres , I ' m not
4 going to get anybody to buy a ten - acre lot
5 there . I just hooked up water on 96 , now
6 you ' re telling me I ' ve got 480 feet of
7 frontage but it ' s not salable . Isn ' t that
8 kind of ridiculous ? I mean , my property on
9 96 would be just as good for a lawn and
10 garden business or anything . I mean , hey .
11 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Where ' s your
12 property on 96 , sir ?
13 JIM BROWN : It ' s on Route 96 just
14 beyond where Jackson Heights Apartments are .
15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Mm - hm .
16 JIM BROWN : It ' s nice level field .
17 I mean , now you ' re telling me that 480 , it ' s
18 unsalable .
19 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well - -
20 JIM BROWN : There ' s enough room
21 there for two residential houses . You ' re
22 telling me that my property is going to be
23 worthless when I go to sell it now but you
24 keep increasing my taxes .
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1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re not doing
2 it .
3 GEORGE FRANTZ : This is one of the
4 issues that we ' ve been going around and
5 around for for what , about four or five
6 months now . It ' s by all means not yet
7 settled .
8 JIM BROWN : It seems like that ' d be
9 a good place for a lawn and garden store . I
10 mean , I don ' t know if you ' re - - with these
11 Zoning Laws , I don ' t know how you ' re going
12 to have people come into the Town of
13 Ulysses . I don ' t even know how you ' re going
14 to have young people . I mean , Health
15 Department said one acre , you people are
16 saying two , three , ten .
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : We ' re saying
18 three - quarters .
19 JIM BROWN : You got three - quarters
20 where there ' s no water and there probably
21 won ' t be water for quite a few years .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : The red area .
23 JIM BROWN : Yeah , down in the lower
24 Perry City Road .
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again - -
2 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : There won ' t be
3 for a while .
4 JIM BROWN : Won ' t for - - for a
5 while , exactly . But yet you ' re restricting
6 me from what I can sell .
7 Another quirk I got about this is
8 that I have a roadside stand . Somebody on
9 this wonderful Board here , I was going to
10 ask who it was but there ' s nobody here that
11 showed up except you , Mr . Coogan . I - - I
12 have a roadside stand which sets on the edge
13 of the road , which according to your rules
14 in here now I can ' t be on the right - of - way
15 of the road , I have to have parking behind
16 the shoulder of the road .
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Right . Do you have
18 a permit for the DOT ?
19 JIM BROWN : Not on the Town road .
20 There ' s like two cars on this road all day
21 long except for the ones I brought .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s on a Town
23 highway ?
24 JIM BROWN : On a Town highway .
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , it ' s up to the
2 Town to decide , you know .
3 JIM BROWN : It ' s really spelled out
4 in here but , you know , it ' s just like they
5 were pointing a finger at someone here . I
6 mean - -
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : Honest to God no .
8 JIM BROWN : I just - - I just can ' t
9 quite understand it , doesn ' t Ag & Markets
10 have a real problem what you folks are doing
11 here ?
12 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : With what
13 part ?
14 JIM BROWN : With this ten - acre
15 zoning .
16 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Well , they do ,
17 right , Doug ?
18 JIM BROWN : Hasn ' t there been a
19 letter from Ag & Markets ?
20 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Their complaint ' s
21 in another direction .
22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I mean , Ag &
23 Markets ' whole goal is to protect
24 agriculture totally .
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1 JIM BROWN : I don ' t see where you
2 folks are trying to protect agriculture one
3 bit . I really don ' t .
4 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But you ' re
5 asking about Ag & Markets and that ' s what
6 their whole goal is .
7 JIM BROWN : I think your focus here ,
8 you keep saying you want agriculture , what I
9 see here is there are certainly people here
10 that don ' t want houses in their backyard .
11 Well , that land by farmers is for sale . If
12 you don ' t want houses in your backyard buy
13 it , you know , pay the price .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : To get back , Ag &
15 Markets , yes , has some issues with this ,
16 with some of the provisions of the Zoning
17 Ordinance . They ' re issues that I ' ve been
18 looking into . I don ' t see them as being
19 serious issues . I mean , we ' ll probably have
20 to make some adjustments . Mostly just in
21 many cases using their language instead of
22 our language .
23 But as far as major problems between
24 this Zoning Ordinance and Ag & Markets , no .
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1 There are not major problems primarily
2 because , again , I know what 305 says , I ' ve
3 worked with the staff at Ag & Markets on
4 other projects , I ' ve always had a good
5 working relationship with them , so - - and
6 that ' s actually one of the reasons why we
7 sent them the Zoning Ordinance .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Change a couple
9 of different definitions and do a little
10 exemption .
11 JIM BROWN : Why couldn ' t my parcel
12 down there on 96 be Agricultural or with 200
13 foot of frontage or for , you know , like a
14 small commercial business ? I mean , if you
15 put water up 96 wouldn ' t you want businesses
1
16 on there at some point in time ? I mean - -
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , we are - -
18 we ' re providing - - again , I ' m looking at
19 market too . What ' s the population ? What ' s
20 the projected future population and what is
21 going to be the demand for retail in the
22 Town of Ulysses ?
23 JIM BROWN : Ten - acre Agricultural
24 lots are going to bring a lot of people ?
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , I ' m talking
2 about the Business zoning , okay ?
3 JIM BROWN : Right .
4 GEORGE FRANTZ : So . . .
5 JIM BROWN : A lot of quirks in this
6 thing .
7 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : It won ' t end up
8 in ag lots I don ' t think .
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : And I ' m sure at the
10 next - -
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s why we ' re
12 asking you .
13 GEORGE FRANTZ : At the next
14 conference maybe I ' ll take a tape recorder
15 and record the little discussion I have with
16 my buddies up in Albany because I think it ' s
17 going to be really interesting .
18 JIM BROWN : Okay .
19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Anybody else
20 want to go for it ?
21 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I got a question .
22 I mean , this prompting me to think about
23 what do people do down the road if something
24 changes in terms of their needs and they
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1 want to change the use of Agricultural to
2 Rural Residence and they ' re close to
1 3 something like that , what is - - what is the
4 opportunity and the process for a person to
5 appeal for a change in zoning for their
6 parcel ? Is that possible ?
7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s possible .
8 It ' s probably - - it ' s not an easy thing but
9 it ' s possible .
10 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : If they use their
11 proposing as adjacent to an existing use
12 that they want it ' s easier to have this
13 creeping kind of development ?
14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , I think
15 what you want , everybody , Ag & Markets
16 whether you know it or not , Tompkins or Town
17 of Ulysses , we should have brought the map ,
18 is probably 95 percent in a New York State
19 Tompkins County Ag District so that gives Ag
20 & Markets a little more - - a little more
21 control over what we do or supposedly than
22 if there were no Ag District .
23 This - - this is - - this is what
24 Ulysses is calling its Ag District
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1 ( indicating ) . You understand that there are
2 farms down in here , there are farms all over
3 these places ( indicating ) . We took - - we
4 looked at the soil types , we looked at the
5 farming operations that were there , we
6 looked at the economic viability of where we
7 thought the best chance that the
8 agricultural operations were going to - -
9 would stay in business , so that ' s why we
10 decided that these areas were - - are a - -
11 one zone , Ag District .
12 We ' re not saying all of this land ,
13 even all those trailer parks all the way
14 around here , not the Hamlet and not Hitching
15 Post and not very much of the land is not in
16 an Ag District . So , whatever we do here
17 doesn ' t mean that you can ' t do your
18 agricultural operation in any other place .
19 You still have the rights of the New York
20 State Ag District .
21 And we developed this plan , the idea
22 was to make sufficient use of the water that
23 we just put in . So , in order to do that we
24 were trying to convince Ag & Markets that we
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1 were prior approving the land in these red
2 areas , they don ' t want water districts run
3 through Ag District . So , we ' re trying to
4 convince them that by creating those zones
5 and encouraging that we would - - we would
6 like them to say that ' s good to put water
7 down there and use it for Residential
8 purposes in that we saved all the rest of
9 the people trying for Agricultural purposes .
10 So , yes , we probably should address
11 Residential or something to make the best
12 use of the water , I ' m not saying how you ' re
13 going to do it , but there ' s the other
14 problem with paying for that infrastructure .
15 So , you ' re getting hit by two sides of - - of
16 the dilemma here so that ' s what we need to
17 figure out .
18 We got - - I think basically what we
19 have describes the zone and what you can do
20 in the zone if I ' m not mistaken . It ' s
21 . pretty close . What we need to do now is
22 decide where we want these zones . Are we
23 right on this or do we want them somewhere
24 else ? And maybe modification here and
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1 there . So , that ' s what we ' re trying . And I
2 understand that this meeting was not
3 extremely highly publicized . It is in the
4 process now , the next one should be more
5 informational . Sorry about that .
6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It was
7 certainly our intent to have it in the
8 paper . It just got messed up .
9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We didn ' t get it
10 in the paper and it happens . But , what we
11 need to do , we ' re going to have a series of
12 three or four of these things . We just need
13 to keep people keep coming in with ideas
14 that we forgot or didn ' t think about or we
15 didn ' t know about . That ' s what we need to
16 know so that we can see what we did wrong or
17 what we did right . We might have done
18 something right , didn ' t we , probably ?
19 Something ?
20 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Yeah , probably
21 something . So , again if you can read
22 through all the pages of it - -
23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s a long
24 thing .
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1
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1 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : - - I really do
2 have to agree with people like Dave Kline .
3 I mean , he ' s moving away . He wants
4 to sell that property , he should be able to
5 sell it off in 200 - foot parcels . There ' s no
6 reason whether it be Residential or
7 Commercial right on the main drag , I just
8 can ' t - - I don ' t understand that .
9 DAVE KLINE : Is it cost prohibitive
10 to send mailers out to everybody ?
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : To everybody in
12 the Town ?
13 DAVE KLINE : No , to landowners .
14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : How do we
15 determine what ' s a landowner ?
16 DAVE KLINE : Tax records .
17
SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I mean , every
18 landowner , every house ?
19 DAVE KLINE : That would give
20 everybody a chance to come . If they don ' t
21 come it ' s their own fault .
22 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It would cost a
23 couple bucks .
24 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : A
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1 questionnaire or what do you want it to be ?
2 COUNCILMAN SCOTT : Pass a hat ?
3 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : But not send
4 the Ordinance to everyone ?
5 DAVE KLINE : No , no , no .
6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That would
7 cost a lot .
8 DAVE KLINE : Just tell them about
9 the meeting .
10 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : They ' ve been
11 working on the Ordinance for many years ,
12 we ' ve had many public hearings , you know ,
13 very , very few people , you know , call me ,
14 you know . It ' s on , you know , it ' s on the
15 web - - has been on our website for years , a
16 couple years . It ' s different now but - - and
17 there ' s always been copies of it in the
18 office , so it ' s hard to hold on to people ' s
19 hands and get them .
20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We can do - -
21 what we will do is make sure that there ' s a
22 list of the different providers , three or
23 four more meetings , that we ' re going to have
24 so that you can pick out which one you want
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1 to come to or which ones you don ' t want to
2 come to or come to all for all I care , but
3 at least you know that there will be three
4 or four on certain dates so you can at least
5 do that . If sending out a post card or
6 something , it ' s worth considering .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : I ' ll have to say
8 it ' s really tough to get people to these
9 meetings unless there ' s something really
10 controversial and then you pack the hall .
11 I ' m having that experience over in Dryden
12 because I ' m even less popular over there
13 with some of my ideas for the comprehensive
14 planning . We ' re having no problems getting
15 people to meetings . And I guess that ' s , you
16 know , and I ' ve been doing this stuff for
17 twenty years and we could - - we could do a
18 blanket mailing of post cards , we could do
19 any number of things and , we still don ' t - -
20 people don ' t get interested .
21 DAVE KLINE : There are a lot of
22 people who probably have a one - acre lot or
23 an - - they ' re probably never going to come .
24 Anybody who has much acreage should be
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1 concerned .
2 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That might
3 probably be the other what you ' re talking
4 about , the majority of the - -
5 DAVE KLINE : Bigger landowners or
6 whatever .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : And maybe again this
8 meeting wasn ' t as well publicized as we
9 wanted it to be and maybe the next time we
10 will pack them in . I mean , I - - I could put
11 out a press release saying Town planners
12 recommend adult use district and - -
13 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Everyone will
14 come .
15 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - we ' ll pack ' em
16 in .
17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' ll pack ' em
18 in or not .
19 DAVE KLINE : People are just more
20 busy than they were now in years past and I
21 don ' t - - I miss people that die , friends of
22 mine , week later , jeez , I didn ' t know that .
23 People just don ' t read the newspaper . They
24 got ballgames with their kids . They got - -
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1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know . I know .
2 We can get it on the radio too if that would
3 help . WACU , does anybody listen to that ?
4 KURT DUNNAM : Lite 97 , something
5 like that . Picks 106 .
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' m really sorry
7 that this wasn ' t advertised . Probably
8 should have been better but we ' ll do it
9 again .
10 JIM BROWN : Another thing that I
11 believe that these larger road frontages , if
12 you look around , how busy peoples ' lives are
13 now , they don ' t want to take care of 700
14 feet of road frontage . I don ' t want to
15 bring that up . Your business .
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s okay .
17 JIM BROWN : People , you ' re going to
18 end up - - if you start selling three acre
19 lots to a lot of people and they like going
20 weekends , they like to go on. vacation ,
21 you ' re going to end up with little brush
22 lots behind each house and it ' s just , I
23 mean , there ' s many people who don ' t take
24 care of 700 feet of road frontage . I mean ,
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1 if you look around - - I can send up a lot of
2 pictures that people can ' t take care of it .
j • 3 They don ' t want to . Or even 500 , the guy
4 buys an acre lot and he ' s happy . Even if it
5 was a two - acre lot with 200 feet or
6 something like that . But this extra road
7 frontage , I mean , for instance my lot down
8 there being in an Ag District with say 400
9 and some feet of frontage left , what do I do
10 with it ? I have to come to a variance
11 before I can sell it to anybody ?
12 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , it would be - -
13 it would be a legal non - conforming lot ,
14 okay ?
15 JIM BROWN : But I have to sell ten
16 acres ?
17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , you can sell
18 the whole lot .
19 GEORGE FRANTZ : If you ' ve got ten
20 acres with 480 feet of frontage .
21 JIM BROWN : Right .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . As it ' s
23 written you could sell it as one lot , okay ,
24 as an Agricultural lot .
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1 JIM BROWN : For instance , if I want
2 to split the back half of this property and
3 sell three or four acres along the road with
4 the 480 feet of frontage then I couldn ' t
5 sell it , correct ?
6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , it ' s tough
7 not having a map of it in front of me and
8 the exact circumstances .
9 JIM BROWN : Because I did have a
10 fellow that wanted to buy part of it for
11 more development for townhouses but he
12 skipped the country now so we won ' t see him
13 again .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : So - -
15 JIM BROWN : But if I: wanted to sell
16 part of it to him in the back and keep the
17 road frontage for two good size house lots
18 that wouldn ' t be salable , this doesn ' t sound
19 right .
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again , I don ' t
21 want to talk specifically about your parcel
22 without having the map in front of me .
23 JIM BROWN : You ' ll have it .
24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This is what ' s
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1 hard to do , it ' s hard to - - you have a
2 situation , somebody else might have a
3 situation , it ' s hard to do a Zoning
4 Ordinance on , I mean , it ' s extremely hard - -
5 JIM BROWN : Right , I agree .
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - to please
7 everybody .
8 I mean , obviously we might have
9 something wrong here , we might not , but it ' s
10 hard to do something to create a law that
11 covers the whole Town that ' s going to make
12 everybody extremely happy .
13 JIM BROWN : But on the other hand - -
14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So you have to
15 come to a medium somewhere , and maybe we ' re
16 too far off the medium at this point .
17 JIM BROWN : I mean , on the other
18 hand , you take some of these farmers like
19 Stan and Chuck Outhoudt ( phonetic ) and
20 people like that , and Danny that have had
21 this land for years , when they get ready to
22 retire and want to sell a lot should they
23 have to come and get a variance to sell a
24 lot off their own land they paid taxes on
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1 for thirty , forty years ? I mean , it doesn ' t
2 seem right . I mean , it just doesn ' t seem
3 right . Because , you know , a panel of
4 elected officials , appointed officials , say
5 that ' s the way it ' s got to be .
6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s the way
7 it works . We ' re trying to get it so there ' s
8 no reason - -
9 SANDY KLINE : Is anybody happy with
10 this ?
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : What ?
12 SANDY KLINE : Is anybody happy
13 with - - when you say a happy medium , we ' re
14 not happy . Is anybody actually totally
15 happy with this the way it is ?
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' m not
17 saying - - no , I didn ' t mean that .
18
CHARLES SCHLOUGH : They ' re happy .
19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Were not happy .
20 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : We never said
21 we were happy .
22 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : No .
23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I was just
24 saying we need to find common ground between
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1 what may be presented and what ' s going to
2 end up . I ' m not saying we ' re happy . I ' m
3 just saying maybe we ' re too large at this
4 point or maybe we ' re too small . We need to
5 reconsider what we ' re doing . Especially I
6 don ' t think the Rural Residential and Rural
7 things are too large . Basically you ' re not
8 going to be building - - you say an acre the
9 Health Department will allow but it ' s a
10 little more than an acre .
11 JIM BROWN : Right .
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re saying two
13 acres without septics .
14 JIM BROWN : Even a two - acre lot I
15 wouldn ' t be opposed to . I ' m opposed to all
16 the road frontage , it splits it up quite
17 often where a farmer couldn ' t sell - - he
18 could get a lot more lots out of his
19 property , you know .
20 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : Maybe ,
21 George , you should explain to them why we - -
22 why we came up with this road frontage , what
23 was the initial reasoning for coming up with
24 this long road frontage .
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : The - - again , we ' re
2 searching here - -
3 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : Let me
4 interrupt one more thing . If you could
5 explain that to them and then maybe we could
6 get some feedback of how they ' d like to see
7 us accomplish the goal we ' re trying to get
8 to .
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : The goal here with
10 the 500 feet is to keep the road frontage
11 from being cut up into two small of lots so
12 that essentially the - - the scenery
13 disappears behind houses , okay ? Is that - -
14 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Well , I think
15 there are further issues that I ' ve at least
16 heard brought up to some extent from people
17 that have talked to me , such as just having
18
a ton of driveways going out onto roads and
19 safety issues surrounding that and other
20 things . So , it ' s not just aesthetics . That
21 is definitely a component that has been
22 voiced and is in the comprehensive plan and
23 people care about , but there are other
24 related things .
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1 And also just the density of people
2 that you ' re putting into the school district
3 and how that changes everything and how the
4 road maintenance has to change and the taxes
5 and everything . It ' s a whole package of
6 density related stuff .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , my
8 recollection of the meeting where this was
9 decided , the primary push for it was to
10 preserve the scenic views from the road .
11 And I think people have been developing
12 these other arguments , you know , as , you
13 know , the discussions have continued for
14 what , this is three or four months now .
15 SANDY KLINE : You know , I find
16 somebody ' s house with nice flowers out in
17 front of it and looking - - their lawn
18 looking nice is just as pretty as looking at
19 a dead tree . I ' m sorry , but , you know ,
20 there ' s nothing - - our road frontage is a
21 bunch of overgrown dead trees and vines and
22 weeds . You can ' t see nothing but trees
23 growing up . I mean , what kind of scenic
24 view is that ? The only good view is when we
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1 mow the lawn .
2 GEORGE FRANTZ : Or when farmers farm
3 the fields .
4 SANDY KLINE : They don ' t farm the
5 fields by the road .
6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , this is one of
7 the issues that has come up and it ' s come up
8 several times tonight , okay ?
9 SANDY KLINE : I mean , your
10 definition of beauty and my definition of
11 beauty would be two different things . I
12 like looking at nice houses . I like looking
13 at peoples ' curtains on their windows . I ' m
14 sorry , but I don ' t , you know , what you like
15 and what I like are going to be two
16 different things so we ' re not going to all
17 just be able to please you just because you
18 want to look at trees . I didn ' t - - I don ' t
19 pay taxes for you to enjoy my trees .
20 JIM BROWN : On a different related
21 subject , on my property that I have down
22 there if I decided that on these new laws
23 that I can ' t operate my roadside stand on
24 the edge of the road and I wanted to move to
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1 my property which is in the Ag District , I
2 see there ' s a 240 - foot - - square feet size
3 maximum size for a stand , so if I wanted to
4 put a stand on my property , display all of
5 my vegetables , I ' m limited to 240 square
6 feet ?
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : No .
8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s one of
9 the things that might not be imposed .
10 GEORGE FRANTZ : That ' s one , yeah , Ag
11 & Markets has zeroed in on that .
12 JIM BROWN : I mean , my wagon now is
13 probably 170 and I could double that size
14 and sell twice as many vegetables .
15 GEORGE FRANTZ : This is , you know ,
16 there ' s also , again , in the Al District we
17 have the category called Agricultural
18 Commerce , okay , which would actually allow a
19 much larger farm stand .
20 JIM BROWN : Whether it be a
21 permanent structure or wagon ?
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , so this is - -
23 JIM BROWN : Is that in here too ? I
24 didn ' t happen to see that .
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1 GEORGE FRANTZ : In the Al District ,
2 Ag Commerce , yeah .
3 JIM BROWN : I didn ' t see that .
4 GEORGE FRANTZ : That would allow you
5 to have a much larger operation in the farm
6 stand and I think that ' s something that Ag &
7 Markets actually didn ' t pick up on so , but
8 that 240 square feet limitation is something
9 that they have got their hooks into and it ' s
10 something that we ' ve got to go back and look
11 at .
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It wouldn ' t be
13 enforcible for us to restrict that if the
14 person could actually be that big . If you
15 were selling four cucumbers and a couple
16 dozen ears of corn off your back lawn then
> 17 they would not consider that to be a large
18 amount thing that we could say yeah .
19 JIM BROWN : I just happened to - -
20 that large area , I didn ' t happen to pick it
21 up . Maybe it was there .
22 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s one of
23 the things they said if it ' s actually needed
24 then we probably can disregard that , so , I
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1 mean , it ' s logic .
2 Any other questions ? Comments ?
3 KURT Mc MILLEN : Kurt Mc Millen . I
4 got a comment for you . I can see what you ' re
5 trying to propose here but I can see that
6 you ' re going to have many , I call them
7 nonconforming parcels , out there that are
8 too small , like Jim ' s . He ' s not - - doesn ' t
9 have enough road frontage to conform with
10 the guidelines and there ' s going to be many
11 out there , and I hope that you left
12 provisions to deal with this , you know , and
13 loosely deal with these people and what they
14 want to do with their property - -
15 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : A
16 nonconforming - -
17
KURT Mc MILLEN : - - to make it fair
18 for everybody .
19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : A lot that is
20 present , no matter how big it is , it has to
21 be a legal lot - -
22 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - surveyed off
24 and whatever to be a nonconforming lot ,
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1 which means that you could do - - the use in
2 the zone you ' re in you can do on that lot .
3 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
4 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : And you might
5 need a variance for front yard setbacks or
6 some things , but you can build a house on
7 the lot or something like that .
8 KURT Mc MILLEN : But I can see where
9 there ' s going to be a lot of instances like
10 Jim ' s , there ' s a lot of people out there
11 just like Jim and they may be in an Ag or
12 maybe Residential lot sizes are too small ,
13 frontage is too small , they don ' t have the
14 depth , they can ' t do anything with it , so I
15 guess I would expect that you people would
16 work with them so that they can build a
17 house on them , sell them - -
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s
19 definitely nonconforming lot .
20 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - and be fair .
21 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I hope there ' s
22 not as much as you think , because one of
23 the - -
24 KURT Mc MILLEN : From this map
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1 there ' s a lot of them .
2 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , when I was
3 doing this map I also have the tax parcels
4 underneath , because that ' s one of the issues
5 that , you know , I have to address - -
6 KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh yeah .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - because it ' s not
8 in the interest of the Town to have a whole
9 lot of these nonconforming lots , okay , so - -
10 and for instance , there was a lot of debate
11 early on about the red , the R2 zoning along
12 the lake , you know , and the reason that ' s
13 there is you don ' t want to zone that Rural
14 Residential because it will put every one of
15 those lots into legal nonconformity .
16 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : They ' re too small .
18 And see , some of the Rural Residential
19 scattered throughout the Al Agricultural
20 District , same thing , there ' s no sense in
21 zoning them Al Agricultural , they ' ve got
22 houses on them and , you know , plus you ' re
23 putting a burden not only on the property
24 owners but on the Town , because I think the
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1 Zoning Board has a lot better things to do
2 than meet weekly to deal with nonconforming
3 lots .
4 KURT Mc MILLEN : But you say you
5 have tax maps for this that would define it
6 much better , you know , you may find some of
7 the smaller parcels have slipped through the
8 cracks - -
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again - -
10 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - are
11 nonconforming .
12 When will the people be notified
13 actually what they ' re going to be in ?
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : Land - - they ' ll be
15 notified hopefully , you know , when - - once
16 we adopt the map . I don ' t know if we can
17 notify everybody , you know , what their
18 zoning is . That would be a whole lot of ,
19 you know , very costly time , but certainly
20 let people know that , hey , there ' s a zoning
21 map in Town Hall , you know , come look at it .
22 KURT Mc MILLEN : I guess what I ' m
23 getting at is if they don ' t know and there
24 is a problem and they come to you later and
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1 they say , well , jeez , I ' ve got a
2 three - quarter acre lot here and I ' m in an Al
3 District , what do I do with it ? Maybe call
4 Brownie up and he can put his wagon on it .
5 JIM BROWN : Small one .
6 KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah , small one .
7 What are you going to do ? This is why I
8 think people are going to be notified what
9 they ' re actually going to be into . This is
10 a good general map and an overview .
11 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again , you ' re
12 not seeing the property lines - -
13 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - on the map but
15 when I was drawing the map I could see them ,
16 you know , it ' s a click of the mouse they
17 come up .
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Probably when we
19 do - - actually do a map it will have the
20 property lines on the big map .
21 KURT Mc MILLEN : It might be a good
22 thing to have ahead of time so that people
23 have a problem with what they ' re in - -
24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We actually have
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1 one .
2 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - they can ask
3 questions as to why .
4 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s some
5 little ones over there . I think they have
6 parcels on them .
7 KURT Mc MILLEN : This map
8 ( indicating ) ?
9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Is that the one ?
10 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : No , there ' s one
11 just like that that has the parcels on it .
12 Hold up yours , Roxanne .
13 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It ' s like that
14 right there ( indicating ) .
15 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : It ' s not a
16 very useful scale if you ' re trying to look
17 at very small detail like you ' re talking
18 about .
19 GEORGE FRANTZ : Did I have one of
20 those up full size ? I thought I did .
21 There ' s a large one .
22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It ' s a - - try
23 and you can get a rough idea , but the scale
24 is hard to look at detail .
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1 KURT Mc MILLEN : But still I guess
2 you ' re missing the point , the rough idea - -
3 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : No , that ' s
4 what I ' m asking .
5 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - when you slam
6 the hammer and you make a decision on each
7 other - -
8 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : The final lines
9 have to follow the property lines .
10 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Right . Usually
12 the zoning line will follow the property
13 line . What I ' m saying is this is what
14 you ' ll end up with ( indicating ) .
15 KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh , yeah .
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This has all the
17 parcels on it so when you get the zoning on
18 it - -
19 JIM BROWN : Is West Shore Gas and
20 grocery in a commercial zone there ? It ' s
21 hard to see .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes .
23 JIM BROWN : How many acres ?
24 GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s actually the
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1 last - -
2 ( Whereupon the reporter announced
3 that she was off the record because of too
4 many conversations going on at once )
5 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : I think - -
6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Go ahead .
7 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Thank you for
8 that comment . That ' s really an important
9 point that you ' re pointing at . There has
10 been some talk about actually having a
11 registry of nonconforming properties to help
12 with the issue that you ' re on . I don ' t know
13 what the challenge is in creating that . I
14 don ' t think it ' s an easy task but certainly
15 if it was created it would then be possible
16 to notify people .
17 KURT Mc MILLEN : Sure . I ' m not
18 saying that any of this is an easy task
19 because you ' re not going to please anyone
20 personally but you want to make it fair to
21 everybody , you know , and try to - - try to go
22 with what the lot ' s wants or needs are ,
23 because the taxes have been paid and the
24 amount of land they own , what they intended
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1 to do with it when they first bought it , I
2 feel for Stanley , he ' s got hundreds of acres
3 and now you say , okay , he can only sell
4 certain size lots . Maybe he planned on
5 making X number of dollars off it . Well ,
6 maybe you ' ve reduced that by the factor of
7 ten , maybe ten times or , you know , you don ' t
8 know .
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Now , West Shore
10 Grocery - -
11 JIM BROWN : Yes . Just curious as to
12 how many acres were in that. commercial
13 property at that point ?
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . The - - the - -
15 again , that - - it ' s there , there ' s a small
16 zoning district that would allow - - I ' m
17 trying to find it , see if I have it here .
18 JIM BROWN : The reason I ask is
19 because there ' s been some health problems
20 there in the family and I don ' t think she ' s
21 aware of what ' s actually going on here .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : And that property
23 has a lot of issues including a good chunk
24 of it being within the Route 89
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1 right - of - way , okay , so - - but the zoning
2 there is , you know , large enough to allow
3 that business to continue and again to allow
4 for at least some expansion , redevelopment
5 of the site .
6 JIM BROWN : Was it on both sides of
7 the road , do you recall ? Because there is a
8 field on the other side of the road .
9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , the field on
10 the other side is part of Camp Comstock or
11 Bailiwick .
12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No .
13 GEORGE FRANTZ : No ?
14 JIM BROWN : It ' s about four or five
15 acres there that belong to the Fletcher
16 property .
17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Anything on the east
18 side would be zoned - - then maybe I made a
19 mistake . Okay , yeah , I ' m sorry . There ' s
20 this field right between Comstock and
21 Bailiwick , okay , yeah .
22 JIM BROWN : Right .
23 GEORGE FRANTZ : That is zoned Rural
24 Residential or proposed to be zoned Rural
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1 Residential .
2 JIM BROWN : Okay . Like I say , I
3 don ' t think , you know , that they ' ve had some
4 health problems in the family , I don ' t think
5 she ' s aware of what ' s going on at the
6 meetings . I thought she might like to know .
7 GEORGE FRANTZ : When I again looked
8 at what ' s out there now in terms of size
9 and , you know , how much to expand , I
10 actually had the tax parcel maps and it
11 really struck me , you know , how much of the
12 canopy is actually right in - -
13 JIM BROWN : Oh , correct .
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - the highway
15 right - of - way so . . .
16 STAN KOSKINEN : I got a question
17 that shoots this 500 frontage right in the
18 rearend . Suppose a guy owns a lot that ' s
19 400 feet wide and 800 feet deep and it ' s a
20 separate lot and it ' s not in an Ag District
21 what can he sell it for ? He can ' t sell it
22 because it ' s not the 500 feet but there ' s
23 two 200 - foot building lots on that frontage .
24 There ' s more than enough acreage in the
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1 whole thing to qualify for the three acres
2 for a lot .
3 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , you know ,
4 again , from what I ' ve heard this 500 feet is
5 still under discussion and right now as far
6 as arithmetic , again I don ' t want to get
7 into specific properties , specific
8 instances , because - -
9 STAN KOSKINEN : Well , you ' re going
10 to have to sooner or later .
11 GEORGE FRANTZ : Eventually , yes .
12 STAN KOSKINEN : Is there a variance ?
13 Can you apply for a variance ?
14 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , absolutely .
15 And if - - if there ' s no subdivision of that
16 lot it ' s a legal nonconforming lot . But
17 yeah , the variance process is , you know , a
18 mechanism open to all property owners . It ' s
19 supposed to be that safety valve for
20 instances like this .
21 STAN KOSKINEN : But there ' s still
22 the discretion of the Zoning Appeals Board
23 if they want you to do it or they don ' t want
24 you to do it , which still if they turned it
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1 down still takes away from what he actually
2 could have sold two lots for instead of one .
3 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : It ' s definitely
4 inconvenient to people but that ' s really the
5 sort of hands down - - that ' s the hands - down
6 case , you know , that someone has a lot
7 that ' s 400 by 800 deep and because of the
8 change it ' s nonconforming and , you know , if
9 the ruling is 500 , I mean , you can hardly
10 define a cleaner hardship case . That ' s one
11 that the zoning has got to deal with .
12 STAN KOSKINEN : If you ' re left with
13 200 you ' re fine .
14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Any other
15 comments ?
16 KURT Mc MILLIEN : I have one more .
17 The people owning more land that they really
18 desire in brush lots and cases and so on ,
19 I ' d just like to bring up that there was an
20 individual that was cited for having - - not
21 in this Township , it was the Town of
22 Enfield , he had some other problems , but in
23 addition to it they cited him for having
24 non - maintained land , and I can ' t remember
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1 what the verbage actually was , but it was
2 about brush and tall grass on the property ,
3 and I wondered how you ' re going to address
4 that .
5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That he was
6 cited under the New York State Building
7 Code .
8 KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah , that was in
9 the paper . That was in writing . You read
10 it .
11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know . I
12 know .
13 KURT Mc MILLEN : And they mentioned
14 tall grass and brush and that , you know ,
15 stuff that hasn ' t been maintained - -
16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s true .
17 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - so . . .
18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That wasn ' t
19 their Zoning Ordinance .
20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , there was
21 an awful lot of violations in this County .
22 KURT Mc MILLEN : I ' m just trying
23 to bring it up to you .
24 GEORGE FRANTZ : And one of the
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1 things that I ' ve said many times in the
2 course of , you know , putting together
3 this new Zoning Ordinance is that , you
4 know , if it ' s - - if it ' s not economically
5 viable as farmland it ' s going to grow up to
6 brush .
7 KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh , sure .
8 GEORGE FRANTZ : And if it grows up
9 to brush there ' s no sense in it being zoned
10 Al Agriculture anymore .
11 KURT Mc MILLEN : But if you ' re
12 going to require a large lot size you ' re - -
13 are you going to require them to mow all ten
14 acres of that just to keep it aesthetically
15 pleasing ?
16 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , there ' s
17 nothing in the zoning that would
18 require that . And as Doug said , in the
19 case you were talking about it was Building
20 Code .
21 KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah .
22 GEORGE FRANTZ : But the , you know ,
23 again , I ' ve been dealing with doing rural
24 planning for twenty years and agriculture
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1 and the biggest issue is the economic
2 viability of our farms - -
3 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right .
4 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - number one .
5 Number two , just as big , is , well , as
6 you know , Stan , there ' s not a whole lot of
7 young farmers out there standing in line to
8 buy farms so - - and I ' m at least aware of
9 that . But I do think , I mean , there ' s been
10 some pretty meaty ideas come out of this
11 meeting . It was , you know , small crowd but
12 a high quality one , so . . .
13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I mean , we could
14 sit around and talk about this all night
15 amongst the seven or eight of us , which is
16 what we ' ve done for years , and we don ' t - -
17 we might not see everything the way
18 everybody else sees it . We don ' t think
19 about what somebody else sees .
20 So , that ' s the idea of this whole
21 thing , so we ' ll have to take this into
22 consideration before we get down and
23 deciding what the law ' s actually going to
24 be , we ' ll have to add the comments we ' ve
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1 heard here and make some changes .
2 Thank you all for coming .
3 ( Whereupon the proceedings concluded
4 at 8 : 40 PM )
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1 STATE OF NEW YORK .
2 COUNTY OF CORTLAND :
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5 I , MICHELE L . RICE , RPR , do hereby
6 certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate
7 transcription of the proceedings in the Matter of a
8 PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING , held in Trumansburg ,
9 New York , on the 24th day of February , 2004 .
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15 MICHELE L . RICE , RPR /7
Notary Public
16 PDQ Court Reporters
746 Route 41
17 Smithville Flats , NY 13841
( 607 ) 863 - 4911
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