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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2004-02-24 - PB i t 1 1 1 STATE OF NEW YORK 2 3 IN THE MATTER OF A PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING 4 5 Re : TOWN OF ULYSSES DRAFT ZONING ORDINANCE 6 7 t 8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 9 PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING ; 10 I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 11 Held at Trumansburg High School , Trumansburg , 12 ' New York , on the 24th day of February , 2 4 Y y , 00 , 13 commencing at 7 : 04 PM . 14 REPORTED BY : PDQ COURT REPORTERS 15 1 MICHELE L . RICE , RPR Notary Public 16 1 746 Route 41 Smithville Flats , New York 13841 17 ( 607 ) 863 - 4911 18 APPEARANCES : 19 TOWN BOARD : Supervisor Douglas Austic 20 i Councilwoman Roxanne Marino Councilman Don Ellis 21 Councilman Lee Scott Councilman Robert Weatherby 22 Town Clerk Marsha Georgia 23 f PLANNING BOARD : 410 24 Chairman Richard Coogan i t 1 Public Informational Meeting 2 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We might as well 2 get started . 3 What we ' re going to do is Mr . Frantz 4 is going to give a brief in a brief synopsis 5 j of the Zoring Ordinance and I think maybe 6 most of you have seen it on the Internet or 7 have copies that you ' ve picked up at the 8 Town Hall or there are copies over there 9 ( indicating ) . 10 f TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : His 11 presentation is over there ( indicating ) . 12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : His P resentation 13 is over there if you want a copy of that to 14 follow along with ( indicating ) . 15 So , I think since this is relatively 16 small group then we ' ll let George explain 17 the general purpose and the ideas behind the 18 Zoning Ordinance and then open it up to 19 questions and take your comments . We ' re not 20 here to try and figure out what ' s wrong or I 21 how it ' s wrong . We ' re just here to take 22 your comments to find out what you think 23 needs improving or what changes we might be I 24 1 able to make to this Ordinance . PDQ COURT REPORTERS I 411 Public Informational Meeting 3 1 And we ' re having a stenographer take 2 ' notes , so if you want - - if you want to 3 , speak maybe you ' d be better off coming up a 4 little closer so she can be sure to get what 5 you ' re saying for the record . 6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : And maybe give 7 your name . 8 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : And give your 9 ! name . 10 With that , what ' s at s this all about , 11 George ? 12 � GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . Way back when 13 i when we got started essentially my goal was 14 ( to write for the Town of Ulysses a Zoning 15 Ordinance that would help protect I 16 1 agricultural land ; help to channel 17 i development into areas of the Town , I would 18 II say intense - - more intensive residential , 19 I industrial , commercial development into 20 areas of the Town closer to Route 96 in the 21 Village of Trumansburg ; provide adequate 22 land for any - - actually more than any i 23 I anticipated future residential or commercial 411 24 development ; put development that - - in PDQ COURT REPORTERS 411 Public Informational Meeting 4 I 1 i places where it would best utilize the 2 investment into the - - in the new water line 3 I up Route 96 to Jacksonville , okay ? That was 4 one goal . 5 Another goal was to provide really 6 clear definitions of the various terms that 7 are used in a Zoning Ordinance , and 8 i unfortunately many times they sort of forget 9 I to define certain terms so there ' s confusion 10 between residents , Code Enforcement 11 1 Officers , Zoning Officers , and sometimes 411 12 even on the various Town Boards . Not just 13 here in Ulysses but everywhere through New 14 York and Pennsylvania where I do my work . 15 Sort of hopefully lay out better 16 procedures for the Planning Board and Zoning 17 Board of Appeals . Again , sort of clarify 18 the situation so it ' s really easier for 19 everybody who has to go before the Boards , 20 they know what they need to do , the Boards 21 � know what they need to do , okay ? And also 22 provide some standards so that in the future 23 the commercial development , the industrial 24 development , that occurs is well described PDQ COURT REPORTERS 410 Pubic Informational Meeting 5 1 and doesn ' t have major impacts on primarily 2 adjoining residential areas . Okay ? 3 + So , they were sort of the overall 4 goal , and what I came up with was , excuse 5 I me , a dozen or so new Zoning Districts . The i 6 Al Agricultural , which is - - if you look on 7 the maps is the yellow and covers most of 8 the Town ( indicating ) . 9 The next Zoning District , the orange 10 ( on the maps , is the Rural Residential Zoning 11 District ( indicating ) . It ' s Residential 410 12 District , it also allows Agriculture . It 13 has lot sizes of two acres . Okay ? 14 A Moderate Density Residential 15 District , which is the red on the map , and 16 you can see it ' s around the Village of 17 Trumansburg and down in the southwest - - 18 southeastern corner of the Town 19 ( indicating ) . The idea is that they would 20 ! be the areas where in the future we can 21 direct the more intensive residential 22 developments in the Town . The lot sizes 23 are - - minimum lot size is set at 32 , 000 24 411 square feet , which is roughly three - quarters i PDQ COURT REPORTERS I Public Informational Meeting 6 1 ' of an acre . Ckay ? And the idea is to have 2 people have major residential development 3 happen where there ' s either public water , 4 municipal water , in some cases perhaps 5 municipal sewer , but at least in the future 6 ) there ' s also the potential for having 7 municipal water and municipal sewer in those 8 areas , okay ? 9 The next District , the Hamlet 10 District , is the purple on the map , and 11 essentially it ' s - - the large one is 12 { centered on Jacksonville and there ' s a 13 smaller one there centered on Waterburg , 14 okay ( indicating ) ? And the zoning there 15 , allows a mix of retail and commercial 16 ( development - - excuse me , retail development 17 and residential development but more p at 18 • densities you see in traditional Upstate New 19 York villages . You can have lot sizes as 20 small as 6 , 000 square feet if you have 21 public - - probably if you have municipal 22 water and some sort of - - you ' re not going 23 i to be able to do it with on lot septic but 24 I there ' s a potential perhaps for , you know , I 1 PDQ COURT REPORTERS I Public Informational Meeting 7 1 larger developments that might have a 2 package treatment plant , or again at some 3 point in the future there may be the 4 possibility of having public or municipal 5 { sewer service in Jacksonville , okay ? 6 Let ' s see , what ' s the next one ? 7 STAN KOSKINEN : Are we going to get 8 a Wal - Mart in Jacksonville ? 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : I doubt it . 10 i STAN KOSKINEN : You said it ' s 11 I retail . 12 GEORGE FRANTZ : The two sort of 13 fI specialized Districts that I ' ve proposed is , 14 one , a Multiple Residence District , which 15 would allow apartment complexes subject to 16 site plan approval by the Planning Board and 17 also Town Board approval of the rezoning , 18 okay ? And there ' s also some design i 19 guidelines standards I should say that any 20 applicant would have to meet before they got 21 Town approval , things like additional 22 setbacks , how you have to design the 23 parking , how large the buildings can be , how 411 24 I much of the lot can actually be developed I . PDQ COURT REPORTERS r Public Informational Meeting 8 1 for that type of housing . 2 And then the other sort of special 3 district is the Manufactured Home Park 4 District , which on the map you can see 5 � northwest of the Village the green area and 6 ± then there ' s the - - the mobile home park 7 there along Route 96 next to the old 8 Drive - Inn , okay ( indicating ) ? So , that 9 District sort of accommodates the two mobile 1 10 home parks within the Town and again it 411 11 gives the Town a little more leverage if 12 they want to expand , there ' s standards there 13 too just like for the Multiple Residence 14 zone that the owners would have to meet . 15 Next is the Bl Business District , and 16 these are fairly hard to see on the map 17 because essentially what we ' ve done is we 18 have one here northwest - - on the northwest 19 corner of the Village and then the largest 20 one is actually down here ( indicating ) . We 21 already have Maguire , we ' ve got Shur Save , 22 and the smaller businesses . Along the south 23 � side of 96 going down the highway we ' ve got 24 ' where Bar Angus is , Stover Lumber , the auto PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 I 1 t Public Informational Meeting 9 1 ( repair shop ( indicating ) . 2 And we get into Jacksonville and 3 ; we ' ve got the area around Ulysses Square , 4 continuing down Rascals and that small 5 commercial area , the old Spikes Barbecue 6 Restaurant . And again a little bit of area 7 ' on both sides of the highway there . And 8 then down Sleeping Bear , Paradise Cafe , the 1 9 Honda motorcycle place ( indicating ) . Along 10 1 96 right now they ' re all - - there ' s retail 11 development in these areas , the idea is to . 12 make the areas large enough so there ' s also 13 possibility for future expansion if the 14 1 market requires or allows it , I should say . 15 Other places , Taughannock Farms Inn , s 16 the old Cuba Inn , an area north of it , the 17 � old motel down south of Craft Road , and of 18 j course the Glenwood Pines ( indicating ) . 19 KURT Mc MILLEN : What was the pink ? 20 GEORGE FRANTZ : This pink - - 21 actually these two pinks are actuall y the 22 Multiple Resident Zones that we ' re 23 I establishing now . This is the True Haven 24 Apartments and this is the old motel in l i PDQ COURT REPORTERS I 410 Public Informational Meeting 10 1 Jacksonville that is now essentially 2 I apartments ( indicating ) . 3 KURT Mc MILLEN : What is the 4 classification ? 5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , it ' s pink on 6 this map , it ' s pink , yeah , it ' s the same . 7 , A VOICE : And you said it ' s what 8 classification , zoning classification ? 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . The problem I 10 is on the map it ' s showing a pink , on the 11 ( legend it ' s showing up this teal color , so 12 it ' s the RM Multiple Residence District , 13 okay ? Sorry about that . Just noticed that . 14 The two pink areas , those are again 15 existing apartment complexes , small 16 !! apartment complexes that were proposing to 17 i just , you know , zone them the Multiple 18 I Residence District . Okay ? 19 ` Then two more . The Light Industrial 20 ; District , which would again allow light 21 1 t industry well defined in the Zoning 22 Ordinance . Essentially it ' s industry where 23 ! you in the businesses would fabricate 24 product , however the components , the raw L. PDQ COURT REPORTERS f -- Public Informational Meeting 11 1 materials , that would be very limited , i . e . 2 i they would be buying components from the 3 primary manufacturers or sources and then i 4 assembling the product on site . It ' s not 5 i like - - actually they ' re not even like that . 6 The old - fashioned plants where you had , 7 let ' s say , a foundry to make the products 8 that would then be used in the manufacturing 9 process . What light industry is generally 10 defined as being is industry where all the 11 heavy - duty , dirty stuff is done elsewhere 12 and components are put ht in and ut g 13 j together on the site using really no more 14 than electric *_rotors , okay ? And the Light 15 1 Industry Districts will also allow office 16 ! and research type businesses also , okay ? 17 And again , we ' ve got here at the 18 south end of Town , we ' ve already had the old 19 Babcock facility , Ithaca Millwork in that 20 1 area , Alpine Machine Shop , plus again room 21 for expansion , room for new businesses to ! 22 maybe come in and locate there , okay ? 23 And then up here , is this still 411 24 Agriculture ? Yeah , the Agriculture Complex I PDQ COURT REPORTERS ,_" i Public Informational Meeting 12 I 1 here , the corner of Park Road and Route 96 , 2 so two Light Industrial areas . 3 And then finally the last district is 4 in the dark green on the map , it ' s the Park 5 I and Recreation District , and it ' s like the 6 ; Rural Residential although it ' s intended to 7 I more recognize - - it ' s , as you can see , 8 , including and adjacent to Taughannock Falls 9 j State Park and the Cayuga Nature Center , 1 10 okay ( indicating ) ? ii So , that ' s the proposed zoning in a 12 nutshell . I think it ' s rather - - I could 13 f put you guys to sleep in another ten minutes 14 going through the District regulations in 15 detail but I think , you know , I ' ve pretty 16 I well covered . I think the best thing to do 17 is open it up to questions , you know , see 18 what your concerns are . 19 Actually , how many people have S i 20 I actually read the Zoning Ordinance ? 21 ( Show of hands ) 22 ! GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . That ' s what I 23 sort of figured . It ' s , you know , it ' s - - I 24 don ' t think it would qualify as - - it ' s not i PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 Public Informational Meeting 13 1 going to make the New York Times 2 Bestseller ' s List but as Zoning Ordinances 3 � go though it ' s , I think from what I hear , 4 1 it ' s been pretty well read , so , but . . . 5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Kurt , why don ' t 6 J you - - I think the stenographer needs to 7 hear you , why don ' t you just come up front . 8 A VOICE : Give us your name . 9 i KURT DUNNAM : This is quick and 10 brief . Kurt Dunnam , D - U - N - N - A - M . I live 11 over on Perry City Road . 411 12 i The two things that I had brought up 13 I didn ' t see in the Ordinance and in fact I 14 did see it quickly reviewing it today . I 15 1 was a little concerned about and there may 16 be something in there now regarding 17 permanent foundations for structures . This 18 I is something we hadn ' t considered previously 19 and if it hasn ' t been considered , I note 20 ! it ' s a rather late stage of the game , but I I 21 brought this up about a year ago , I didn ' t 22 hear a reply on it , I would like to see 23 whether we can get something in there for 411 24 permanent foundations for structures such as PDQ COURT REPORTERS 410 I Public Informational Meeting 14 1 the doublewides and that sort of thing . 2 GEORGE FRANTZ : What are you 3 defining as permanent foundation ? 4 KURT DUNNAM : Well , you know , I ' m 5 , not a contractor or an expert on it but I 6 would say something other than temporary 7 pilings or piers . 8 GEORGE FRANTZ : So , prefab walls or 9 something or a block wall ? 10 KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , I think so . 11 � Something that provides some sort of wind 411 12 shielding . Also more permanent attachment 13 than that sort of thing . I leave details to 14 the experts . 15 But the other thing was on towers , 16 ( this is very simple and straightforward , I 17 1 don ' t think there was an exception for 18 private , that is not commercial , towers 19 under 100 feet reading through the section 20 very quickly , that appears to be overlooked 21 1 for , you know , HAM radio operators . And 22 maybe you want to put up a 45 - foot tower or 23 TV antenna on it , which is a little unusual 411 24 ' in this day and age but it might be PDQ COURT REPORTERS I I Public Informational Meeting 15 1 something we ' d want to do at some point , but i 2 there ' s no provision for doing that without 3 requesting a variance it looks like . Simple 4 change . That ' s it . 5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . I think that i 6 tele - - even HAM radio operators , it gets 7 ; into , you know , the Telecommunications Act I 8 and - - I 9 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We discussed I 10 I this and I don ' t - - when we were discussing 411 11 personal towers for TV antenna type of thing 12 for your own home , there was something that 13 it wouldn ' t fall under the category of a i 14 tower if I remember right . 15 KURT DUNNAM : Well , my impression is 16 j it used to be that under 100 feet was 17 considered generally exempt , you know , 18 whether it was commercial or non - commercial , 19 and I think that sort of inadvertently fell 20 by the wayside . I i 21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' ll have to - - 22 j KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , you might want 23 to look at the language . 411 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - relook at it . I PDQ COURT REPORTERS { Public Informational Meeting 16 1 KURT DUNNAM : That would be the 2 • concern . And in general I think 3 non - commercial use under 100 feet should be 4 exempt . No lighting ' s required under 5 federal law , FAA regulations , and generally 6 ' a tower that ' s below 100 feet is not a 7 visible use that presents a structural 8 hazard . 9 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I think I 10 remember that and it was something that it 11 L wasn ' t freestanding , maybe it was attached 410 i2 j to the house or something . 13 f SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : We better look 14 I back . 15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It had 16 something to do with whether it was 17 ' freestanding or not . 18 , KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , I ' ll be glad to I 19 ii talk with anybody who has questions about 20 specifics on that . 21 STAN KOSKINEN : My name is Stan 22 i Koskinen . You want me to spell the last 23 name ? 24 COURT REPORTER : Please . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 17 1 STAN KOSKINEN : Koskinen is 2 K - O - S - K - I - N - E - N . I ' ve been here since 1930 . 3 I wasn ' t born here , I came here and then we 4 didn ' t have zoning and everybody - - nobody 5 mistreated anybody , they had respect for 6 { everybody ' s property . And my wife and I 7 f haven ' t ever had a job , we ' ve always worked 8 in and developed our empire , which is now 9 500 acres . And we want the privilege of 10 � selling building lots . That ' s my - - that ' s 11 j our retirement . And 500 feet is much too Z2 4 much . We have sold some over the years and 13 people don ' t want more than 200 feet . If 14 they want more than that they ' ll buy two 15 I lots for their privacy , so why should it be 16 500 feet ? That ' s our retirement . i 17 And another thing , if you have a flag 18 lot the zoning says you have to have 100 - 19 foot frontage the way I read it . Is that 20 right ? 21 SUPRVISOR AUSTIC : In the proposal 22 there , yep . 23 STAN KOSKINEN : Why should it be 100 24 ' feet ? That ' s a half a building lot . People PDQ COURT REPORTERS I Fubl i c Informational Meeting 18 1 don ' t want to mow all that stuff . The Town 2 and the County right - of - way is only three 3 rods wide , which is about 50 feet , why 4 1 should it be more than 50 feet to ' get back 5 ! to the flag lot ? 1 6 And another thing , there ' s 7 restrictions on how deep the lot should be . 8 It can ' t be - - it can ' t be too - - over so 9 many feet . Some lots don ' t fit that because 10 it runs into somebody else ' s property . Some 11 of them go farther back . You can still get 12 i • your three acres out of it by going far 13 1 enough back , no problem . 14 That ' s my own personal property . I ' m • 15 probably one of the few individuals that has 16 that . 17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That has 18 personal property ? I don ' t know , Stan . 19 GEORGE FRANTZ : Do we still have the 20 maximum lot depth ? 21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s still in 22 the zoning . That ' s what we ' re here for . We 23 don ' t - - we came to a point where we had 411 24 . talked about this stuff amongst the Planning PDQ COURT REPORTERS 411 Public Informational Meeting 19 1 J Board and the Town Board several meetings 2 and we just came to a point where we didn ' t 3 1 know what we wanted to do - - we knew what we 4 wanted to do but we didn ' t know what the people are going to think about what we want 6 to do , so that ' s what we ' re here for , to try 7 and find out if what we ' re thinkin g would 8 work as to what you ' re thinking . So , what 9 , we ' re doing is we ' re trying to take comments 10 to see your opinions and then we ' ll have to 11 go back and think what we were doing again 12 1 and see what we can come up with to I 13 accommodate . 14 ; STAN KOSKINEN : My feeling is that 15 people that are sitting at the head table 16 d should not make decisions for people that 17 are paying the taxes . 18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s why we ' re 19 asking you , so we can - - 20 I STAN KOSKINEN : I just told you . 21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right . 22 ( STAN KOSKINEN : If I have a buyer 23 that wants 200 feet of frontage and that ' s I 24 all he wants I should have the right to sell PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 20 1 him that . If he wants 300 feet I should 2 have that right . If he wants to buy that 3 it ' s a mutual agreement between two parties . 4 And if you have 500 feet of frontage it ' s 5 going to grow up to brush because modern 6 people both have to work to make a living to 7 make the mortgage payments and they ' re not 8 going to have time to take care of it . 9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Done ? 10 STAN KOSKINEN : I ' m done on that 11 subject . 12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right . 13 SANDY KLINE : Okay . My name is 14 Sandy Kline and we have the property right 15 here , everything here from here to here to 16 ' here ( indicating ) . Everybody around us is 17 Residential . We don ' t have a farm . We 18 don ' t own any tractors and we don ' t do any 19 agricultural work . We could but we don ' t . 20 Well , we have some of the best prime land 21 sitting there but people can ' t afford the 22 , taxes that you want . You people charge a 23 fortune in taxes on that prime road frontage 24 ( for years and years and years . Now you ' re f PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 21 1 telling us we can ' t sell it unless we break 2 it up into 500 - foot lots . Well , there are 3 1 people that want the property , they don ' t 4 want to pay 500 foot , they don ' t want that 5 much property . And why is it everybody else 6 around us is Residential but we ' re 7 l Agriculture in our own little corner there ? 8 It doesn ' t make any sense . Who decides it ' s 9 Agricultural or Residential ? We just live 10 there , we don ' t 1 farm it . 411 11 I GEORGE FRANTZ : It was - - again , 12 it ' s proposed for Agricultural because P g se 13 SANDY KLINE : There ' s no work barn 14 fI on anyplace . There ' s no tractors . 15 ( GEORGE FRANTZ : Is the land being 16 E farmed ? 17 SANDY KLINE : We rent it out for 18 $ 300 a year just so it helps pay the taxes 19 on it , but we can stop doing that . 20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , you can stop 21 doing it but again - - 22 ! SANDY KLINE : We could put in a pig 23 farm or we could open it up for some more 24 businesses , or don ' t you guys want I i PDQ COURT REPORTERS I Public Informational Meeting 22 1 Trumansburg to grow at all ? Do you want it 2 to just stay the way it is ? It ' s not 3 ! like - - it ' s on a main highway . It ' s not 4 out of - - it ' s not like you ' re on a back i 5 ( road or anything . I mean , it ' s one of the 6 prime pieces cf front Residential land 7 you ' ve got left on 96 that ' s still vacant 8 and it ' s up for sale . 9 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Can I ask , do 10 you have an Ag Assessment on your property ? 11 I SANDY KLINE : Pardon me ? 12 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Do you get an 13 1 Ag Assessment on the taxes on that property 14 right now ? 15 DAVE KLINE : Do we get a what ? 16 i COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : An Agriculture 17 Assessment . 18 DAVE KLINE : I don ' t believe so . 19 I SANDY KLINE : No , they just mailed 20 us - - 21 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : You get a ? 2 reduction in the assessment of the property 23 if it ' s Agricultural ? 24 I SANDY KLINE : No , not at all . PDQ COURT REPORTERS . e r Public Informational Meeting 23 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Just asking . 2 SANDY KLINE : We pay for prime road 3 frontage . • 4 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But I don ' t 5 J think road frontage - - does road frontage 6 cost any more in taxes than the rest of the 7 ' property ? 8 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : It is if they - - 1 9 1 I don ' t know . i 10 1 SANDY KLINE : Yes . I 410 11 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If they 12 i determine that it might be commercial or 13 t something it ' s a possibility . , 14 ! TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : If they t 15 determine it ' s a viable building lot , yes , 16 possible building lots , yes . 17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If you were to 18 subdivide the piece into 300 - feet lots even 19 though nobody were there they would assess 20 you differently than it would be one big 21 piece . 22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Oh , okay . But 23 ! it ' s not divided that way right now ? 24 DAVE KLINE : What ' s that ? PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 24 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Your 2 i property ' s not divided now so you ' re not 3 paying a higher assessment right now just 4 ' because it ' s road frontage ? I ' m just trying I 5 ! to clarify that . I ' m unaware - - i 6 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I don ' t think 7 it ' s just because road frontage . DAVE KLINE : Well , I guess what 9 she ' s saying is why are we - - we ' re not 10 paying taxes on what you ' re calling a 11 property Agricultural as being paid as a 12 Business and now you get this guy out of 13 Town that comes in , he says all of a sudden 14 this is Agricultural . 15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Oh , so it ' s 16 ; all Business right now ? 17 DAVE KLINE : It ' s Residential 18 Business . 19 � COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Business for 20 all of your property ? 21 GEORGE FRANTZ : The County 22 " Assessment Department in theory assesses 23 properties based on comparable sales , i . e . 24 sale of property that is comparable to that , PDQ COURT REPORTERS 7-- I 410 w , Public Informational Meeting 25 1 and they are also supposedly taking into 2 account zoning . 3 i I think one of the issues was zoning 4 in the Town of Ulysses now and one of the 5 things that this Zoning Ordinance is trying 6 to address is that , you know , Business , you 7 can have a business along Route 96 8 practically anywhere and so County 9 Assessment is at - - could be looking at all 10 I the property along the road as potentially 11 ! developable for Business . 12 DAVE KLINE : But you ' re telling me I 13 can ' t put a business there . 14 ' GEORGE FRANTZ : I have proposed a 15 zoning map for the Town Board to decide . 16 DAVE KLINE : Well , you made a 17 statement here with these - - the blue areas 18 that you made it big enough for future 19 i growth . Where is it big enough for future i 20 growth where mine is ? 21 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , yours I think i 22 if it ' s where the body shop is - - 23 ' DAVE KLINE : Yes . 24 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - I believe that ' s PDQ COURT REPORTERS I I f 411 I Public Informational Meeting 26 i I 1_ j allowed for about doubling of the amount of . 2 That was generally my rule of thumb . 3 DAVE KLINE : Which one of these is 4 i right ( indicating ) ? They don ' t agree . You 5 got on one of them it says minimum lot three 6 acres and then the other one says ten acres . 7 II Minimum frontage 500 , on the other one it 8 says 1 , 000 . 9 { GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . What I did , 10 the one that I did last week I did not 11 j include the provisions in - - what is it - - 12 4 . 6 ? 13 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This one ' s 14 probably closer ( indicating ) . 15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Use this one 16 ( indicating ) . 17 DAVE KLINE : So , you ' re going from 18 minimum 500 frontage , now it ' s got to be 19 1 , 000 frontage ? 20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , 500 foot is 21 what ' s being proposed . 22 DAVE KLINE : Pardon ? 23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : 500 foot one is ? 4 the one that ' s being proposed at this point . II PDQ COURT REPORTERS 411 i Public Informational Meeting 27 1 DAVE KLINE : You just said this one 2 was , this one ' s 1 , 000 ( indicating ) . 3 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : That was for 4 ; Agricultural lots , not Residential lots . 5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s an 6 Agricultural lot . A Residential lot is less 7 i in the Ag District . 8 DAVE KLINE : So , let ' s say this 9 ! thing goes through and our whole frontage 10 here is Ag 1 . Is that saying you can ' t ever I 11 change it to business or anything ? 12 I GEORGE FRANTZ : No . 13 ii SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , it ' s not 14 i saying that . You could request . 15 i DAVE KLINE : Then we ' d have to go in 16 front of the Board and public hearings 17 f and - - t 18 f SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Or , you know , 19 there ' s always the possibility , we probably 20 will review this in a certain number of 21 years and maybe we ' ll determine that it 22 wasn ' t correct the way we had done it the 23 I first time . You do have some commercial on 24 � your place and it ' s bigger than it is there PDQ COURT REPORTERS i ( Public Informational Meeting 28 1 now . 2 ! DAVE KLINE : It doesn ' t look it . 3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , it ' s hard 4 to see it on the map . It is a tad bigger . 5 DAVE KLINE : Does anybody here know 6 what a Section 305 -A is , the Agricultural 7 use is , the law ? 8 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I know . 9 DAVE KLINE : What is it ? i 10 f GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s the section 411 11 that gives the Department of Ag & Markets { 12 certain powers . It ' s the section that sets 13 up the Agricultural District Program . 14 ; DAVE KLINE : What does it mean so I 15 ' can understand it ? 16 + GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , ' 11 , I m not an 17 � attorney and I don ' t have the law memorized , 18 but you can go to the website and read it . 19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It establishes 20 : the Department of Ag & Markets and how they 21 � operate it . Then you go on to other 22 sections and it will tell you what - - what 23 some of the regulations may be or what they 24 {i are . But it ' s the - - it ' s the establishing I I PDQ COURT REPORTERS 410 Public Informational Meeting 29 1 ` law for AO & Markets , 305 is . 2 DAVE KLINE : In this article you had 3 in the paper it says that the Board could 4 reserve 50 , 000 to 75 , 000 in the Town ' s 5 jIbudget to pay for development rights and f 6 preserve space since the Board cannot tell 7 I people how to use their land . 8 C SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I didn ' t - - 9 there ' s a misquote there but similar to 10 j that , right . What ' s your question ? 411 11 1 DAVE KLINE : Exactly what does that 12 mean ? 13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : What that means 14 { is - - do you want me to answer this ? 15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , I can . 16 , SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : All right . 17 Ij Purchase and development rights , say for 18 i some reason it was decided that a certain 19 1 section of land had an important reason that 20 we should preserve the open space interest 21 or the view or something like that . We i 22 1 decided you have a - - through hearings and 23 meetings you decide that this particular 411 24 parcel of land is important to preserve for 1 . i PDQ COURT REPORTERS i 411 Public Informational Meeting 30 1 )i some reason or another , so what you could do 2 then is purchase the development rights , 3 which means once you do that you pay the 4 landowner a certain amount of money for the 5 ' rights to develop on that piece of property . 6 Town then owns the rights . Or you could 7 also do this through State programs or land 8 trust , those types things . 9 i What happens is once whoever owns the 10 development rights on that piece of land , 11 i the owner is being paid for that and in 12 1 return he ' s saying he won ' t develop it so 13 I the land will stay as is . But generally 14 1 speaking in this area it becomes hard to buy 15 development rights unless the value of the 16 i land is fairly high . I mean , you ' re not 17 ; going to accept a lower amount than - - for 18 i your development rights if you feel the land 19 is higher and the land price wouldn ' t i3 20 f necessarily be higher unless there were a 21 lot of people seeking to buy the land for 22 ( some reason . 1 23 ' So , that ' s what it is . It ' s not - - 24 you still own the land , it ' s just that you I I I _ PDQ COURT REPORTERS • F. 1 Public Informational Meeting 31 I 1 can ' t - - you have agreed to not build a 2 house or build a business or something on 3 s that land to preserve it for some reason I 4 i that you decide . 5 GEORGE FRANTZ : One of the problems i 6 i with zoning is , number one , it ' s a pretty 7 I clumsy way of regulating land use . Any 8 !! planner will tell you that . And in some 9 ( communities they ' ve been able to preserve , Z0 ! protect land that the community thinks is 410 11 worth keeping out of development , out of the 12 ; market completely , okay ? And the way 13 they ' ve done is stepping in and buying the 14 1 right to develop the land from the 15 landowner . In agricultural areas it ' s been 16 quite successful , especially where there ' s 17 an awful lot of development pressure . 18 f It does a couple of things . One , it 19 takes the farmland out of competition with 20 developers because the municipality has 21 j essentially purchased the development rights 22 I and the land - - the use of the land is I 23 limited to agriculture , okay , so it will , of 24 i course , favorably generally affects - - it ii PDQ COURT REPORTERS I i 1 410 . Public Informational Meeting 32 I I lowers the taxes , because again , it ' s not 2 being taxed as development land because it 3 # doesn ' t have any development potential . 4 The other benefit of it is that when , 5 you know , a farmer is facing retirement it ' s 6 a lot easier for a younger farmer to step in 7 , and buy it because the younger farmers are 8 not competing with the developers to buy 9 I that farmland . 10 The real problem here in Tompkins 411 11 County , and in fact I did a study for the 12 County two years ago , and as Doug said , 13 " it ' s - - our problem is the land values in 14 Tompkins County are really too low to make 15 purchase and development rights attractive I I 16 ! to a landowner , okay ? It ' s - - nobody ' s 17 , going to give up their development rights 18 for $ 600 an acre , which is In I think that ' s 19 1 what I recall being the average cost , and 20 it ' s why even in the , you know , in the Town I 21 i of Ithaca , which has had a program now for 22 j four or five years , they don ' t have any 23 I takers , ycu know , and they have the highest 411 24 land values in the County . Because the PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 t 411 Public Informational Meeting 33 I 1 problem is the value of agricultural land 2 is - - the value of land for agriculture is 3 here and it ' s value for development is about 4 here ( indicating ) . So , all the 5 Municipalities can really pay is about maybe 6 40 percent the total value of the land so 7 ! we ' re just sort of stuck unfortunately . 8 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Can I ask what 9 your - - what would you prefer - - just - - 10 ; this is just a question - - the zoning to be 11 for your property ? Are you arguing that it 12 should be Business like the garage around 13 { it , your whole piece ? Or I ' m not quite 14 ( clear what you ' re - - i 15 DAVE KLINE : I have 1 , 000 feet of my 16 ; Business that they gave me , which was 300 17 feet , now he ' s saying I got twice as much , 18 but I ' d like to see it in writing . You take 19 i that 1 , 000 feet , you get four building lots 20 = out of there , nice building lots , real deep 21 1 ones . f 22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : So , you ' re 23 1 talking about for Residential , you ' re not 411 24 talking about for the Business ? i L. PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 34 1 1 DAVE KLINE : I ' m retiring in 2 twenty - one days , I ' m moving away from here . 3 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Right , so 4 you ' re arguing Residential , you want it to 5 be High Density Residential ? 6 DAVE KLINE : If you guys got these 7 limits on now it ' s 1 , 000 feet I can only 8 sell one building lot . 9 ( SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If it weren ' t in 10 i the Ag District it would be less . Are you 11 requesting that it be R - - Rural 12 Residential ? i 13 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That ' s what 14 I ' m asking . You want it to be a - - i 15 SANDY KLINE : We ' re paying 16 I Residential fees for our taxes . t 17 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I think that 18 would give you 250 feet . 19 i SANDY KLINE : Yes , everybody around 20 j us is Residential . 21 ` COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : There ' s a big 22 huge field across the street from your 23 ; property . 24 DAVE KLINE : But that will never be l PDQ COURT REPORTERS I Public Informational Meeting 35 1 I sold . 2 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : You can ' t know 3 that . I ' m just saying that you have that 4 part and then there ' s a big field across 5 from your property , right ? 6 � SANDY KLINE : Yeah , that belongs to 7 I Stover ( phonetic ) . 8 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Okay . 9 i DAVE KLINE : My feeling is that 10 whole 96 corridor should be opened up to 11 Residential and Commercial . Get some 411 12 businesses in there . Get some jobs in 13 I there . 14 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you ' re 15 asking for Residential ? 16 DAVE KLINE : Other than what we are I 17 f now . I ' d like the option to be able to put 18 another business in . 19 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That wouldn ' t 20 Il be Residential then , Business . 21 DAVE KLINE : You said you left room 22 I for expansion on businesses , either / or . 23 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But it would 411 24 be a different zone . t i PDQ COURT REPORTERS i f I { 110 I Public Informational Meeting 36 i 1 DAVE KLINE : This area needs 2 ; businesses . 3 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You have to f 4 consider the two - - the Stover and your 5 place and I think - - I don ' t know how it 6 i ended up . Dick , how did it end up ? 7 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : Potentially we 8 looked at it as being existing what they 9 are , PED ' s , and that ' s how we kept it . 10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We could 410 11 consider that . Would you want to be 12 i Residential or Business ? 13 s DAVE KLINE : Mix . t 14 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : Mix . f 15 : COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I don ' t think I E 16 that ' s - - so , if it ' s a Business , George or 17 Doug , or I haven ' t been at this for the 18 whole two years , so if it ' s Business can you 19 i put a residence there ? 20 (j CHAIRMAN COOGAN : No . 21 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Not in the 22 Business Zone , but if it were next to it you 23 i could . 410 24 } COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Okay . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 37 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , prior - - part 2 I of the problem with these maps is they ' re 3 1 showing the whole Town so you ' re looking at 4 ( that and , yeah , you ' re probably seeing 300 5 1 feet but I ' m sure it ' s 600 plus feet . 6 ! DAVE KLINE : That ' s what I ' d like to 1 7 ' know . 8 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : When we get the i 9 I map done or closer to being done it will be 10 more to scale and the lots may be on - - each i 11 f individual lot will be designated on there 12 ( as it is on some of the other maps so you i 13 can actually see where you are in relation 14 to the neighbor . You can ' t tell now because 15 it ' s big blurb . 16 DAVE KLINE : Well , that picture of 17 my land right there , I got a survey map down 18 j to the house I ' ll give you . 19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Do you have that 20 ! little map ? 21 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That has the 22 parcel - - the land parcels marked on it ? 23 j DAVE KLINE : Yes , and your little 24 dot looks just like my 300 feet that ' s on my w PDQ COURT REPCRTERS 2ubl i c Informational Meeting 38 f 1 map . 2 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right . 3 i That ' s a good - - we ' ll look at that . 4 DAVE KLINE : Now , if it ' s 600 feet 5 j that will be fine , but it looks like 300 6 i feet to me . 7 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , we ' ll look at 8 it . 9 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , we will 10 ; consider that , Mr . Kline . 11 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : My name ' s Charles 12 Schlough , S - C - H - L - O - TJ - G - H . Question about 13 that Hamlet District . I see that what ' s 14 proposed is to encourage a lot more dense 15 I development of a variety of sorts , both , 16 Commercial , Retail and Residential . And one 17 of the ways to accomplish the Residential 18 side is to increase multiple units . I know 19 that two - family units are available in most i 20 I of the Residential Districts and in the i 21 1 Hamlet in order to have multiple residences , 22 1 which I presume means four - to six - unit 23 apartment buildings , if I read it correctly 24 1 it says that you can do that with site plan i PDQ COURT REPORTERS II 1 411 Public Informational Meeting 39 1 approval but it has to be - - the Residential 2 units have to be on the second floor over 3 ! the Retail or other Commercial . Is that the 4 correct reading of it ? 5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah . The idea is 6 f that , you know , to hopefully encourage , you 7 } know , the development of apartments over 8 i retail stores , okay ? So that ' s within the 9 Hamlet District , that ' s where you could have 10 apartments , okay ? 11 II CHARLES SCHLOUGH : But how is it 12 proposed to increase the Residential Density 13 1 Zone for that Hamlet if you have to bring in I 14 Retail and Commercial with Residential ? I 15 i mean , why can ' t you build an apartment ? 16 GEORGE FRANTZ : The way you can 17 build apartments would be if you have a 18 1 proposal , a site plan and the like , you can 19 ; then go to the Town Board and request that 20 I they zone the land for the Multiple 21 Residence . 22 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Why would there 23 be a requirement of that additional step 24 instead of allowing it at the onset ? I I 1 PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 1 Public Informational Meeting 40 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , at this point 2 the thinking is , you know , it gives better 3 , control to the Town in terms of where it 4 1 would like such development , okay ? Because 1 5 ` a rezoning is a legislative action , you 6 ' know , at the discretion of the Town Board . 7 If you were allowed this type of development 8 in the Hamlet District even by special 9 1 permit it ' s a lot harder for the Town , if 10 j it ' s not a Good idea , to turn it down . 11 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , it seemed 410 12 i to me that with the very specifications for 13 I lot sizes and density setback and all these 14 things that you could define in the Zoning 15 . Ordinance at the beginning what you would 16 t require if there were to be a proposal for 17 or an intention to use the site for a 18 four - unit apartment house . There are a lot 19 of specifications for all kinds of uses but 20 II you ' re - - you ' re trying to encourage 21 ! Residential development , one of the 22 conditions under which that would be 23 1 desirable or allowed . 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If I may , PDQ COURT REPORTERS I Public Informational Meeting 41 1 there ' s a way around this , because it 2 doesn ' t necessarily exclude townhouse 3 I condominium lots . In other words , if you 4 add common wall apartment . 5 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : But it requires 6 that there be a Retail or Commercial - - f 7 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s if you i 8 have an apartment . These are separate 9 maybe . 0 1 # GEORGE FRANTZ : You can have 410 11 1 through , for instance , use of cluster 12 t subdivision , okay , ou can actually look at Y y 13 ; the Hamlet Zoning District as saying one i Y g 14 dwelling for every 6 , 000 square feet of land 15 1 and if you owned a one acre of land 16 I essentially that ' s seven dwelling units , 17 ! okay ? You could fit seven townhouse 18 t dwelling units on about - - well , actually 19 about 6 , 000 square feet of land I think , is 20 that - - 21 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : ( Nods head ) 22 ti GEORGE FRANTZ : And the remainder of 23 the parcel could be for the driveways , i 24 garages , and the like . L. PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 42 i 1 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I didn ' t see any 2 language about townhouses . Is there a 3 definition that makes them different from an 4 apartment building ? ! SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' ve seen the 6 definitions in the Ordinance . 7 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Because I didn ' t i 8 see any mention of townhouses within the 9 Hamlet . 10 GEORGE FRANTZ : And the reason you 11 1 didn ' t , because townhouse is a style of 12 architecture - - 13 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right . 14 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - not a type of 15 ownership . 16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s not 17 Multiple Residence . 18 ' CHARLES SCHLOUGH : It ' s not Multiple 19 � Residence . Is townhouse a form of 20 ownership ? 21 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , a townhouse is a 22 j type of dwelling unit , okay ? 23 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : It ' s a design 411 24 ' feature . L PDQ COURT REPORTERS i j Public Informational Meeting 43 I 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , attach homes 2 ! generally in a row , okay ? A townhouse could I 3 1 be six dwellings attached together on six 4 ' different lots . 5 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : So , you ' re saying 6 a townhouse would be permitted under what 7 you ' re proposing ? 8 ' GEORGE FRANTZ : Townhouses , yeah , 9 ; are permitted . 10 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I ' ll have to read i 11 ! it . I didn ' t come across that . 12 S GEORGE FRANTZ : In fact I think in 13 the definitions we may have a definition for 14 townhouse just to clarify the fact that , you 15 I know , we look at it as just being a type of 16 I architecture outside of , you know , who owns 17 1 what . 18 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , I thought a 19 townhouse was a form of Multiple Residence , 20 { so I ' m confused by the terminology . 21 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Each little 22 section in a townhouse , say it ' s two story 23 1 or whatever - - 24 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right . I ! I PDQ COURT REPORTERS I Public Informational Meeting 44 1 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - each little 2 section is owned by somebody , it ' s not 3 rented . 4 You move to the other side of the 5 wall , this person owns this other , so it ' s a 6 form of ownership actually . 7 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , that ' s 8 j condominiums , separate ownerships . 9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Same thing , 10 except in a townhouse you own the land 11 underneath the building . It ' s kind of 12 I weird . In a condominium you own the 13 i building , you don ' t own the land underneath 14 it . 15 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : So , you ' re 16 looking for owner - occupied densities rather 17 than - - I 18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah , right . 19 ! COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Charles , I didn ' t 20 i help write it but I like seeing that there , 21 that mention that the Residential 22 I development above the Retail is allowed , i 23 because there ' s several very nice little 24 1� residential buildings , you know , the old - - I • PDQ COURT REPORTERS I 1 Informational Meeting 45 411 Public Informational 1 i like the old store on the corner and so on 2 that might survive if they had economically 3 viable other use in them , so I think it ' s 4 good that it ' s there but it ' s not trying to 5 f be directive . 6 J CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I think it ' s an i 7 I attractive idea but I don ' t see it in 8 practice very much in Tompkins County and I 9 think you ' re going to have a difficult time 10 f finding buyers in that configuration . 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That may be 12 true . 13 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , I think , yeah , 14 we may have a tough time finding people who 15 f want to , you know , take , let ' s say , one of 16 the old buildings in Jacksonville and rehab 17 it with retail or office on the ground floor 18 and apartment in the second floor , but I 19 think it ' s important that the Town allow the 20 option , because in most communities they 21 don ' t allow it . 22 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , that ' s 23 i fine . That ' s fine . In the process you ' re 24 ( excluding what is commonly a form of L__ __ _ __ PDQ COUR REPORTERS I I I Public Informational Meeting 46 1 developing higher densities and Multiple 2 Residency in a Hamlet or Village , so that ' s 1 3 I what you want . 4 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you ' re 5 saying essentially we should consider also 6 allowing three - , four - , five - apartment 7 buildings ? 8 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : With design with 9 some kind of a limit in terms of the impact 10 that you ' re willing to allow , but at least 410 11 allow conventional types of methods for 12 I increasing Multiple Residence or higher Multiple g 13 density residencies in the Hamlet . If you 14 can allow one unit per 6 , 000 feet why just 15 j describe it as - - in this very , very 16 I unconventional or I should say uncommon ways 17 of using that property . People that live in I 18 the Hamlet it has to be important to them 19 I and if you want - - 20 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I see your 21 point . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I think - - let 23 me just to help maybe hopefully help clarify 411 I 24 it , but is your point that we need to maybe PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 47 1 look at something that is somewhere between 2 the owner - occupied home on 6 , 000 square feet 3 and the apartment complex ? I 4 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Yes . 5 , CHAIRMAN COOGAN : George , I think 6 : this came about because at one point we had 7 actually divided the Hamlet into a Hamlet 8 Business District and a Hamlet Residential 9 District and it was the Hamlet Business I 10 District where we said businesses on the 11 first floor , residence on the second floor , 12 giving it a more business feel , and then we 13 said no when we merged the Hamlet together , 14 and I think this is a holdover . 15 PEG COOGAN : I ' d like to say - - Peg 16 i Coogan from Jacksonville . I think you had 17 come to one of the Jacksonville Community 18 { Association Meetings and you were asking for 19 I feedback from residents and I think one of 20 the concerns was that a big multi - unit g ltz unit 21 apartment building might be inappropriate 22 I for the Hamlet whereas something more like 23 attached roadhouses would have more of a 24 I feel for 19th Century - - 19th Century 1 1 PDQ COURT REPORTERS i I Public Informational Meeting 48 t 1 community , which is what we ' re trying to 2 preserve there . And I don ' t know if there 3 ! are other options besides townhouses versus 4 i five - story apartment buildings . I grew up , 5 1 it was kind of nice and I have a version to 6 them now , but I think that ' s part of where 7 that came from was the rest of us not 8 wanting huge - - 9 I GEORGE FRANTZ : If you ' re interested 10 in going back and seeing if there are 11 examples elsewhere - - 12 1 SUFERVISOR RUSTIC : We ' ll see what 13 we can find for examples . We ' d have to 14 really consider what - - I can see his point , 15 if you can ' t get a commercial - - if you 16 I can ' t get somebody that wants the commercial I 17 I space why are you going to build a building 18 and have apartments upstairs ? 19 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : If you were i 20 r going to have apartments would it have to go 21 ► to site plan review so that you could sort I 22 of assure by the Planning Board ' s review of 23 the way it was designed that you wouldn ' t 411 24 have some , you know , I don ' t know , PDQ COURT REPORTERS I t Public Informational Meeting 49 1 seven - story tall thing that ' s not 2 j appropriate for that Hamlet ? 3 j SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s a height 4 1 limit of 40 feet . 5 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But I ' m just 6 saying , would there be site plan review just 7 triggered right away , have to be anyway ? 8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah . I 9 ( GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , for the 10 proposed multi - family district . 11 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It is now ? I 12 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes . i 13 . COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : And so if 14 apartments were included in that somehow or 15 it was expanded it would still have to be 16 It reviewed by the Planning Board ? 17 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah . 18 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : The plan for 19 it and the layout of everything and the 20 overall size and how it fit into the I 21 (� community , the space around it ? 22 i GEORGE FRANTZ : We ' d have to , you 23 know , again , yeah , look at this concept , 24 ! which is again something between the single - 1 PDQ COURT REPORTERS P12. blic Informational Meeting 50 1 family home and the big apartment complex . 2 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Right . 3 GEORGE FRANTZ : But I would suspect 4 that if we come up with something it would , 5 yeah , be subject to site plan approval or 6 something . 7 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : So , I was just 8 making the point for people that there ' s 9 another level of check too beyond just the 10 Zoning which is the Planning Board having 11 control over how it ' s done . 12 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Let me simplify 13 my request . That didn ' t seem to be very 14 clear . I think the language that you have 15 now could be changed and satisfy me if it 16 t eliminated. the 100 percent requirement that 17 i there be a retail or commercial ground floor � 8 I under any apartment . 19 ' SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Under any 20 apartment ? 21 ' CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right . 22 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you might 23 have one - - 24 I CHARLES SCHLOUGH : In other words , j I PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1I f Public Informational Meeting 51 I 1 ' thereby allow Multiple Residence within this 2 District subject to site plan approval given 3 the measurements , stipulations , and all 4 { those statistics that you want to require , 5 heighth , density coverage of the ground , 6 ' allow something more conventional . I mean , 7 some nice townhouses that have , you know , a 8 Georgetown kind of look about them , two s 9 floors is fine and rentable townhouses are 10 just as attractive as owner - occupied 11 townhouses . And I just think if you loosen 12 j it up and accomplish more of what Y ou ' d like 13 i to see the Hamlet look like . 14 DAVE KLINE : Does Alex ever sit in 15 on any of this ? 16 I COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : He usually 17 does . 18 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : He usually does . 19 1 He must be somewhere else tonight . 20 i DAVE KLINE : Because we looked into 21 doing apartments over commercial and 22 Tompkins County Fire Code it just almost 23 prohibits it costwise . 110 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , the new i I PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 52 1 Codes would allow it . This one ' s a lot 2 more - - 3 DAVE KLINE : You got to have 4 sprinkler systems . You got to have fire 5 walls . 6 ; SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Sometimes it 7 depends on the size . You would need 8 sprinklers in the commercial . 9 DAVE KLINE : If you find people to 10 invest money - - 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : The new Codes 12 are different . They took over January 1st 13 of this year . 14 j DAVE KLINE : And you ' re saying i 15 ( they ' re less restrictive ? 16 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yep . Sprinklers 17 will get you away with a lot so if you 18 happen to be in pp Jacksonville where you had 19 water or somewhere else you could do a lot 20 y of things that you wouldn ' t have been able 21 to do before . 22 DAVE KLINE : Yeah , but that ' s - - the 23 ! sprinklers are expensive . 24 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , maybe . I i PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 I � Public Informational Meeting 53 1 don ' t know . 2 JIM BROWN : My name ' s Jim Brown . 3 I ' ve got about 80 acres here in the Town of 1 4 i Ulysses . I guess the first thing I ' d like i 5 to say , I ' d like to see some of these 6 1 meetings better publicized . I don ' t think 7 3 it ' s because people aren ' t concerned . I 8 don ' t think people know about them . And 9 just because it wasn ' t advertised in the 10 paper , if you ge down through Trumansburg 11 1 i and ask people on the street what the new 12 zoning is they don ' t have a clue . 13 I mean , why not take a copy of this , 14 you spent so damn much money , and mail a 15 copy to some of the py people , the taxpayers ? 16 You ' ve hired the planner , you ' ve taken - - 17 you want to take bus tours and you have all 18 I these meetings , but nobody knows about 19 what ' s going on . I mean , can ' t you just 20 make people more aware ? I think you ' d have 21 I a room full of people here if more people 22 knew . 23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I had a mistake 411 24 this time . I would have - - we didn ' t get it I PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 Public Informational Meeting 54 1 in . 2 JIM BROWN : The first thing - - 3 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : The paper didn ' t 7 4 ' publish our thing . 5 JIM BROWN : Okay . That ' s probably 6 not your fault or Marsha ' s fault . 7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s her fault . 8 i JIM BROWN : Nobody really knows 9 what ' s going on . 10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know . 11 II JIM BROWN : I talked to a fellow , he 12 ( have several properties here in the Town of 13 ' Ulysses here the other day , he didn ' t have a 14 Ii clue that this was coming about . 15 ? SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re having 16 i three more meetings . This one got away from 17 I us . 18 JIM BROWN : One of the first things 19 I ' m upset about Is this : I ' ve got land in 20 the Agricultural District down here and ten 21 � acres in 1 , 000 feet of road frontage . Come . . 22 on , folks . I mean , why ten acres in an 23 Agricultural District ? I mean , that ' s my 24 1 retirement . I don ' t have a 401 - K , you know , I PDQ COURT REPORTERS I I Public Informational Meeting 55 1 Tier I retirement like some of you folks 2 have . You ' re telling me that I got to 3 have - - I got to sell ten acres , I ' m not 4 I going to get anybody to buy a ten - acre lot 5 there . I just hooked up water on 96 , now 6 you ' re telling me I ' ve got 480 feet of 7 frontage but it ' s not salable . Isn ' t that 8 kind of ridiculous ? I mean , my property on 9 I 96 would be just as good for a lawn and 10 ! garden business or anything . I mean , hey . 11 I COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Where ' s your . 12 property on 96 , sir ? 13 JIM BRCWN : It ' s on Route 96 just 14 beyond where Jackson Heights Apartments are . I I 15 + COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Mm - hm . i 16 JIM BROWN : It ' s nice level field . 17 { I mean , now you ' re telling me that 480 , it ' s 18 unsalable . 19 , GEORGE FRANTZ : Well - I - 20 JIM BROWN : There ' s enough room 21 i there for two residential houses . You ' re 22 telling me that my property is going to be 23 1 worthless when I go to sell it now but you 24 I keep increasing my taxes . I PDQ COURT REPORTERS i b 411 ! , r P .� �, �. � c Informational Meeting 56 1 SUPERVISOR AU' STIC : We ' re not doing 2 it . 3 GEORGE FRANTZ : This is one of the 4 issues that we ' ve been going around and 5 1 around for for what , about four or five 6 i months now . It ' s by all means not yet 7 settled . 8 , JIM BROWN : It seems like that ' d be 9 a good place for a lawn and garden store . I 10 ; mean , I don ' t know if you ' re - - with these 410 11 Zoning Laws , I don ' t know how you ' re going 12 to have people come into the Town of 13 Ulysses . I don ' t even know how you ' re going 14 to have young people . I mean , Health i 15 i Department said one acre , you people are 16 saying two , three , ten . 17 GEORGE FRANTZ : We ' re saying 18 three - quarters . i 19 ' JIM BROWN : You got three - quarters 20 i where there ' s no water and there probably 21 1 won ' t be water for quite a few years . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : The red area . 23 ! JIM BROWN : Yeah , down in the lower j 24 Perry City Road . (__ PDQ COURT REPORTERS i 1 i 411 Public Informational N.eetinc 57 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again - - 2 f SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There won ' t be 3 for a while . 4 i JIM BROWN : Won ' t for - - for a 5 i while , exactly . But yet you ' re restricting 6 me from what I can sell . i 7 Another quirk I got about this is 8 j that I have a roadside stand . Somebody on 9 i this wonderful Board here , I was going to 10 t ask who it was but there ' s nobody here that 11 showed up except you , Mr . Coogan . I - - I 12 have a roadside stand which sets on the edge g 13 of the road , which according to your rules 14 in here now I can ' t be on the right - of -way 15 t of the road , I have to have parking behind 15 the shoulder of the road . 17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Right . Do you have 18 a permit for the DOT ? 19 ! JIM BROWN : Not on the Town road . 20 ; There ' s like two cars on this road all day 21 1 long except for the ones I brought . 22 i GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s on a Town i 23 i highway ? 24 JIM BROWN : On a Town highway . w 1 PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 Public Informational Meeting 58 s I 1 GEORGE FF.ANTZ : Well , it ' s up to the 2 i Town to decide , you know . 3 ! JIM BROWN : It ' s really spelled out 4 in here but , you know , it ' s just like they 5 were pointing a finger at someone here . I i 6 mean - - 7 I GEORGE FRANTZ : Honest to God no . 8 E JINI BROWN : I just - - I just can ' t 9 ' quite understand it , doesn ' t Ag & Markets 10 l have a real problem what you folks are doing 11 1 here ? t 12 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : With what 13 ! part ? 14 JIM BROWN : With this ten - acre 15 zoning . t 16 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Well , they do , 17 right , Doug ? i 18 JIM BROWN : Hasn ' t there been a 19 letter from Ag & Markets ? 20 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Their complaint ' s 21 ' in another direction . 22 COL'NCILWOMAN MARINO : I mean , Ag & 23 Markets ' whole goal is to protect 24 I agriculture totally . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 59 1 JIM BROWN : I don ' t see where you I 2 folks are trying to protect agriculture one 3 j bit . I really don ' t . 4 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But you ' re 5 asking about Ag & Markets and that ' s what 6 their whole goal is . 7 ! JIM . BROWN : I think your focus here , ti 8 you keep saving you want agriculture , what I 9 ' see here is there are certainly people here 10 that don ' t want houses in their backyard . i 11 i . Well , that land by farmers is for sale . If 12 { you don ' t want houses in your backyard buy 13 , it , you know , pay the price . 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : To get back , Ag & 15 ( Markets , yes , has some issues with this , i 16 ` with some of the provisions of the Zoning 17 Ordinance . They ' re issues that I ' ve been 18 looking into . I don ' t see them as being 19 I serious issues . I mean , we ' ll probably have I 20 to make some adjustments . Mostly just in 21 j many cases using their language instead of 22 ; our language . 23 But as far as major problems between 24 this Zoning Ordinance and Ag & Markets , no . i PDQ COURT REPORTERS fI Public Informational Meeting 60 1 There are not major problems primarily 2 because , again , I know what 305 says , I ' ve 3 1 worked with the staff at Ag & Markets on 4 other projects , I ' ve always had a good 5 ! working relationship with them , so - - and 1 6 i that ' s actually one of the reasons why we 7 sent them the Zoning Ordinance . 8 ; SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Change a couple 9 of different definitions and do a little 10 exemption . } 410 11 JIM BROWN : Why couldn ' t my parcel 12 down there on 96 be Agricultural or with 200 13 ! foot of frontage or for , you know , like a 14 small commercial business ? I mean , if you 15 put water up 95 wouldn ' t you want businesses 16 on there at some point in time ? I mean - - 17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , we are - - 18 we ' re providing - - again , I ' m looking at 19 t market too . What ' s the population ? What ' s 20 the projected future population and what is 21 going to be the demand for retail in the 22 Town of Ulysses ? 23 1 JIM BROWN : Ten - acre Agricultural 24 ( lots are going to bring a lot of people ? I I PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 61 i 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , I ' m talking 2 about the Business zoning , okay ? 3 I JIM BROWN : Right . 4 GEORGE FRANTZ : So . . . 5 I .TIM BROWN : A lot of quirks in this 6 I thing . 7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It won ' t end up 8 in ag lots I don ' t think . 9 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : And I ' m sure at the 10 ( next - - 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s why we ' re f 12 asking you . 13 GEORGE FRANTZ : At the next 14 ? conference maybe I ' ll take a tape recorder I 15 and record the little discussion I have with 16 + my buddies up in Albany because I think it ' s 17 , going to be really interesting . 18 1 JIM BROWN : Okay . 19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Anybody else 20 want to go for it ? 21 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I got a question . 22 I mean , this prompting me to think about 1 f 23 1 what do people do down the road if something 411 24 changes in terns of their needs and they PDQ COURT REPORTERS I 411 Public Informational Meeting 62 i 1 I want to change the use of Agricultural to 2 t Rural Residence and they ' re close to 3 something like that , what is - - what is the 4 opportunity and the process for a person to 5 appeal for a change in zoning for their 6 parcel ? Is that possible ? 7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s possible . 8 ' It ' s probably - - it ' s not an easy thing but 9 it ' s possible . 10 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : If they use their I 11 } proposing as adjacent to an existing use 12 ; that they want it ' s easier to have this 13 creeping kind of development ? 14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , I think 15 what want ,you � -� t , _e verybody , Ag & Markets 16 whether you know it or not , Tompkins or Town Z7 of Ulysses , we should have brought the map , f 18 is probably 95 percent in a New York State 19 Tompkins County Ag District so that gives Ag 20 & Markets a little more - - a little more 21 control over what we do or supposedly than 22 if there were no Ag District . 23 I This - - this is - - this is what 411 24 Ulysses is calling its Ag District PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 63 I 1 1 ( indicating ) . You understand that there are i 2 ` farms down in here , there are farms all over 3 these places ( indicating ) . We took - - we 4 i looked at the soil types , we looked at the 5 I farming operations that were there , we 6 looked at the economic viability of where we 7 thought the best chance that the 8 I agricultural operations were going to - - 9 1 would stay in business , so that ' s why we 70 i decided that these areas were - - are a - - 11 one zone , Ag District . 12 I We ' re not saying all of this land , 13 even all those trailer parks all the way 14 j around here , not the Hamlet and not Hitching 15 Post and not very much of the land is not in 16 an Ag District . So , whatever we do here 17 f doesn ' t mean that you can ' t do your 18 agricultural operation in any other place . 19 I You still have the rights of the New York 20 State Ag District . 21 j And we developed this plan , the idea 22 { was to make sufficient use of the water that 23 we just put in . So , in order to do that we 24 were trying to convince Ag & Markets that we PDQ COURT REPORTERS r I Public Informational Meeting 64 1 were prior approving the land in these red 2 areas , they don ' t want water districts run 3 S through Ag District . So , we ' re trying to 4 (( convince them that by creating those zones 5 ! and encouraging that we would - - we would 6 like them to say that ' s good to put water 7 down there and use it for Residential 8 ( purposes in that we saved all the rest of 9 the people trying for Agricultural purposes . 10 So , yes , we probably should address 11 1 Residential or something to make the best 410 12 use of the water , I ' m not saying how you ' re 13 going to do it , but there ' s the other 14 } problem with paying for that infrastructure . 15 So , you ' re getting hit by two sides of - - of I 16 1 the dilemma here so that ' s what we need to i 17 figure out . 18 We got - - I think basically what we 19 i have describes the zone and what you can do 20 in the zone if I ' m not mistaken . It ' s 21 ' pretty close . What we need to do now is I 22 decide where we want these zones . Are we 23 { j right on this or do we want them somewhere 24 else ? And maybe modification here and PDQ COURT REPORTERS I I Public Informational Meeting 65 1 1 1 there . So , that ' s what we ' re trying . And I 2 understand that this meeting was not 3 i extremely highly publicized . It is in the 4 ` process now , the next one should be more 5 ! informational . Sorry about that . 6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It was 7 j certainly our intent to have it in the 8 paper . It just got messed up . 9 ( SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We didn ' t get it 10 in the paper and it happens . But , what we 410 11 need to do , we ' re going to have a series of 12 three or four of these things . We just need 13 to keep people keep coming in with ideas 14 that we forgot or didn ' t think about or we 15 : didn ' t know about . That ' s what we need to 16 ; know so that we can see what we did wrong or I 17 what we did right . We might have done • 18 something right , didn ' t we , probably ? 19 I Something ? 20 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Yeah , probably 21 something . So , again if you can read 22 ; through all the pages of it - 23 ! SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s a long 411 24 { thing . i PDQ COURT REPORTERS I I j Public Informational Meeting 66 I 1 j CHARLES SCHLOUGH : - - I really do 2 have to agree with people like Dave Kline . 3 I mean , he ' s moving away . He wants 4 1 to sell that property , he should be able to 5 sell it off in 200 - foot parcels . There ' s no 6 reason whether it be Residential or 7 Commercial right on the main drag , I just 8 can ' t - - I don ' t understand that . 9 DAVE KLINE : Is it cost prohibitive 10 to send mailers out to everybody ? 11 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : To everybody in 12 the Town ? 13 I DAVE KLINE : No , to landowners . 14 ' SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : How do we 15 determine what ' s a landowner ? 16 I DAVE KLINE : Tax records . 17 { SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I mean , every 18 i landowner , every house ? 19 DAVE KLINE : That would give 20 everybody a chance to come . If they don ' t 21 I come it ' s their own fault . 22 ? SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It would cost a 23 couple bucks . 24 i COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : A ( PDQ COURT REPORTERS i I` i r 410 fPublic Informational Meeting 67 1 1 questionnaire or what do you want it to be ? 2 COUNCILMAN SCOTT : Pass a hat ? 3 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : But not send 4 the Ordinance to everyone ? 5 I DAVE KLINE : No , no , no . 6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That would 7 cost a lot , 1 8 I DAVE KLINE : Just tell them about 9 1 the meeting . 10 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : They ' ve been 411 11 working on the Ordinance for many years , 12 we ' ve had many public hearings , you know , 13 1 very , very few people , you know , call me , 14 you know . It ' s on , you know , it ' s on the 15 1 web - - has been on our website for years , a 16 I couple years . It ' s different now but - - and 17 there ' s always been copies of it in the 18 office , so it ' s hard to hold on to people ' s 19 1 hands and get them . 20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We can do - - 21 what we will do is make sure that there ' s a 22 list of the different providers , three or 1 23 I four more meetings , that we ' re going to have 24 I so that you can pick out which one you want PDQ COURT REPORTERS I I I 411 Public Informational Meeting 68 1 ( to come to or which ones you don ' t want to 2 come to or come to all for all I care , but 3 I at least you know that there will be three 4 1 or four on certain dates so you can at least 5 do that . If sending out a post card or t 6 $ something , it ' s worth considering . 7 ; GEORGE FRANTZ : I ' ll have to say 8 it ' s really tough to get people to these 9 j meetings unless there ' s something really 10 ( controversial and then you pack the hall . 11 I ' m having that experience over in Dryden 12 ! because I ' m even less popular over there f 13 with some of my ideas for the comprehensive 14 planning . We ' re having no problems getting 15 ( people to meetings . And I guess that ' s , you 16 know , and I ' ve been doing this stuff for 17 twenty years and we could - - we could do a 18 blanket mailing of post cards , we could do i i 19 I any number of things and , we still don ' t - - 20 people don ' t get interested . 21 DAVE KLINE : There are a lot of 22 people who probably have a one - acre lot or 23 an - - they ' re probably never going to come . 411 24 Anybody who has much acreage should be PDQ COURT REPORTERS 411 I Public Informational Meeting 69 1 concerned . 2 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That might 3 I probably be the other what you ' re talking i 4 about , the majority of the - - 5 DAVE KLINE : Bigger landowners or 6 whatever . 7 GEORGE FRANTZ : And maybe again this 8 meeting wasn ' t as well publicized as we 9 j wanted it to be and maybe the next time we 10 ( will pack them in . I mean , I - - I could put 11 out a press release saying Town planners 12 ! recommend adult use district and - - I 13 I COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Everyone will 14= come . I 15 I GEORGE FRANTZ : - - we ' ll pack ' em I 16 in . 17 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' ll pack ' em 18 in or not . 19 DAVE KLINE : People are just more i 20 busy than they were now in years past and I 21 don ' t - - I miss people that die , friends of 22 i mine , week later , jeez , I didn ' t know that . f 23 People just don ' t read the newspaper . They 411 24 1 got ballgames with their kids . They got - - l PDQ COURT REPORTERS t t I 4 I Public Informational Meeting 70 ? SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know . I know . 2 We can get it on the radio too if that would 3 I help . WACU , does anybody listen to that ? 4 E KURT DUNNAM : Lite 97 , something 5 like that . Picks 106 . 6 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : I ' m really sorry 7 that this wasn ' t advertised . Probably 8 i should have been better but we ' ll do it 9 again . 10 , JIM BROWN : Another thing that I 11 ! believe that these larger road frontages , if 12 f you look around , how busy peoples ' lives are 13 now , they don ' t want to take care of 700 14 feet of road frontage . I don ' t want to 15 � bring that up . Your business . 16 " SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s okay . 17 i JIM BROWN : People , you ' re going to 18 I end up - - if you start selling three acre 19 1 lots to a lot of people and they like going 20 weekends , they like to go on vacation , 21 you ' re going to end up with little brush 22 lots behind each house and it ' s just , I 23 ; mean , there ' s many eo le who don ' t take P ke 24 I care of 700 feet of road frontage . I mean , PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 71 I I 1 if you look around - - I can send up a lot of 2 pictures that people can ' t take care of it . 3 They don ' t want to . Or even 500 , the guy 4 ' buys an acre lot and he ' s happy . Even if it 5 I was a two - acre lot with 200 feet or 6 ! something like that . But this extra road 7 frontage , . I mean , for instance my lot down 8 there being in an Ag District with say 400 9 1 and some feet of frontage left , what do I do i 10 with it ? I have to come to a variance i 11 I before I can sell it to anybody ? 12 } GEORGE FRANTZ : No , it would be - - 13 it would be a legal non - conforming lot , 14 okay ? 15 JIM BROWN : But I have to sell ten 16 acres ? 17 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , you can sell 18 i the whole lot . 19 i GEORGE FRANTZ : If you ' ve got ten Z0 I acres with 480 feet of frontage . 21 { JIM BROWN : Right . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . As it ' s 23 written you could sell it . as one lot , okay , 411 24 as an Agricultural lot . PDQ COURT REPORTERS V- IIIPublic Informational Meeting 72 1 JIM BROWN : For instance , if I want 2 to split the hack half of this property and 3 sell three or four acres along the road with 4 the 480 feet of frontage then I couldn ' t 5 1 sell it , correct ? 6 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , it ' s tough 7 not having a map of it in front of me and I 8 the exact circumstances . I 9 l JIM BROWN : Because I did have a I 10 ( fellow that wanted to buy part of it for 411 11 more development for townhouses but he 12 skipped the country now so we won ' t see him 13 i again . 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : So - - I 15 Jfl! BROWN : But if I wanted to sell 16 I part of it to him in the back and keep the 17 road frontage for two good size house lots 18 that wouldn ' t be salable , this doesn ' t sound 19 right . 20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again , I don ' t 21 1 want to talk specifically about your parcel 22 without having the map in front of me . 23 JIM BROWN : You ' ll have it . r 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This is what ' s f s I PDQ COURT REPORTERS f i I ' Public Informational Meeting 73 1 hard to do , it ' s hard to - - you have a 2 situation , somebody else might have a 3 situation , it ' s hard to do a Zoning 4 Ordinance on , I mean , it ' s extremely hard - - 5 JIM BROWN : Right , I agree . 6 ' SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - to please 7 I everybody . 8 I mean , obviously we might have 9 something wrong here , we might not , but it ' s 10 ! hard to do something to create a law that 71 1 covers the whole Town that ' s 411 } going to make 12 everybody extremely happy . 13 JIM BROWN : But on the other hand - - 14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So you have to 15 i come to a medium somewhere , and maybe we ' re R 16 too far off the medium at this point . 17 JIM BROWN : I mean , on the other 18 hand , you take some of these farmers like 19 { Stan and Chuck Outhoudt ( phonetic ) and 20 people like that , and Danny that have had 21 1 this land for years , when they get ready to 22 retire and want to sell a lot should they 23 have to come and get a variance to sell a 411 24 I lot off their own land they paid taxes on PDQ COURT REPORTERS I I i jPublic Informational Meeting 74 I I I 1 for thirty , forty years ? I mean , it doesn ' t 2 seem right . I mean , it just doesn ' t seem 3 right . Because , you know , a panel of 4 1 elected officials , appointed officials , say 5 that ' s the way it ' s got to be . 6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s the way 7 1 it works . We ' re trying to get it so there ' s 8 no reason - - 9 SANDY KLINE : Is anybody happy with I 10 this ? 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : What ? 411 12 SANDY KLINE : Is anybody happy 13 I with - - when you say a happy medium , we ' re 14 not happy . Is anybody actually totally I 15 happy with this the way it is ? 16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' m not I 17 saying - - no , I didn ' t mean that . 18 ( CHARLES SCHLOUGH : They ' re happy . 19 j SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re not happy . 20 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : We never said 21 f we were happy . 22 I COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : No . I 23 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I was just 24 i saying we need to find common ground between PDQ COURT REPORTERS I Public Informational v eetinc 75 • I 1 1 what may be presented and what ' s going to 2 end up . I ' m not saying we ' re happy . I ' m 3 j just saying maybe we ' re too large at this 4 point or maybe we ' re too small . We need to 5 reconsider what we ' re doing . Especially I 6 don ' t think the Rural Residential and Rural 7 things are too large . Basically you ' re not 8 j going to be building - - you say an acre the 9 } Health Department will allow but it ' s a 10 little more than an acre . 11 (( JIM BROWN : Right . 12 ! SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re saying two 13 I acres without septics . 14 JIM BROWN : Even a two - acre lot I 15 wouldn ' t be opposed to . I ' m opposed to all 16 the road frontage , it splits it up quite 17 often where a farmer couldn ' t sell - - he I 18 I could get a lot more lots out of his 19 property , you know . 20 COTINCILMAN WEATHERBY : Maybe , 21 I George , you should explain to them why we - - 22 why we came up with this road frontage , what 23 was the initial reasoning for coming up with 24 this long road frontage . � I PDQ COURT REPORTERS { I Public Informational Meeting 76 1 { GEORGE FRANTZ : The - - again , we ' re 2 searching here - - 3 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : Let me 4 ; interrupt one more thing . If you could 5 I explain that to them and then maybe we could 6 i get some feedback of how they ' d like to see 7 us accomplish the goal we ' re trying to get 8 ! to . 9 ' GEORGE FRANTZ : The goal here with 10 the 500 feet is to keep the road frontage 411 11 from being cut up into two small of lots so 12 ( that essentially the - - the scenery y i 13 disappears behind houses , okay ? Is that - 14 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Well , I think 15 i there are further issues that I ' ve at least 16 heard brought up to some extent from people 17 that have talked to me , such as just having i 18 1 a ton of driveways going out onto roads and 19 l safety issues surrounding that and other 20 } things . So , it ' s not just aesthetics . That 21 1 is definitely a component that has been 22 i voiced and is in the comprehensive plan p n and 23 � people care about , but there are other 24 related things . PDQ COURT REPORTERS } I I fI i SPublic Informational Meeting 77 1 And also just the density of people 2 , that you ' re putting into the school district 3 ; and how that changes everything and how the { 4 1 road maintenance has to change and the taxes 5 and everything . It ' s a whole package of 6 I density related stuff . 7 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , my 8 recollection of the meeting where this was 9 decided , the primary push for it was to 10 preserve the scenic views from the road . 411 11 1 And I think people have been developing 12 � these other arguments , you know , as , you 13 i know , the discussions have continued for 14 what , this is three or four months now . 15 j SANDY KLINE : You know , I find 16 = somebody ' s house with nice flowers out in 17 front of it and looking - - their lawn 18 looking nice is just as pretty as looking at 19 a dead tree . I ' m sorry , but , you know , 20 I there ' s nothing - - our road frontage is a 21 bunch of overgrown dead trees and vines and 22 I weeds . You can ' t see nothing but trees 23 I growing up . I mean , what kind of scenic 24 ! view is that ? The only good view is when we w 1 PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 78 i 1 mow the lawn . 2 GEORGE FRANTZ : Or when farmers farm 3 the fields . 4 SANDY KLINE : They don ' t farm the 5 ii fields by the road . 6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , this is one of 7 the issues that has come up and it ' s come up 8 several times tonight , okay ? 9 I SANDY KLINE : I mean , your 10 ( definition of beauty and my definition of i 11 beauty would be two different things . I 411 12 like looking at nice houses . I like looking 13 1 at peoples ' curtains on their windows . I ' m r 14 ( sorry , but I don ' t , you know , what you like 15 ' and what I like are going to be two 16 I different things so we ' re not going to all 17 I just be able to please you just because you I 18 ! want to look at trees . I didn ' t - - I don ' t 19 I pay taxes for you to enjoy my trees . 20 JIM BROWN : On a different related 21 subject , on my property that I have down 22 there if I decided that on these new laws 23 i that I can ' t operate my roadside stand on 24 I the edge of the road and I wanted to move to PDQ COURT REPORTERS , I I 411 Public Informational Meeting 79 11 1 my property which is in the Ag District , I 2 see there ' s a 2. 40 - foot - - square feet size 3 maximum size for a stand , so if I wanted to 4 j put a stand on my property , display all of 5 �1 my vegetables , I ' m limited to 240 square 6 feet ? 7 ( GEORGE FRANTZ : No . 8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s one of 9 ' the things that might not be imposed . 10 GEORGE FRANTZ : That ' s one , yeah , Ag 11 I & Markets has zeroed in on that . 411 12 ; JIM BROWN : I mean , my wagon now is f 13 probably 170 and I could double that size 14 and sell twice as many vegetables . 15 GEORGE FRANTZ : This is , you know , I 16 1 there ' s also , again , in the Al District we 17 ( have the category called Agricultural I� 18 f Commerce , okay , which would actually allow a 19 ; much larger farm stand . 20 JIM BROWN : Whether it be a 21 i permanent structure or wagon ? 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , so this is - - i 23 JIM BROWN : Is that in here too ? I 24 didn ' t happen to see that . I PDQ COURT REPORTERS I { Public Informational Meeting 80 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : In the Al District , { 2 Ag Commerce , yeah . 3 I JIM BROWN : I didn ' t see that . 4 ' GEORGE FRANTZ : That would allow you 5 i to have a much larger operation in the farm 6 stand and I think that ' s something that Ag & 7 i Markets actually didn ' t pick up on so , but 8 that 240 square feet limitation is something 9 1 that they have got their hooks into and it ' s 10 something that we ' ve got to go back and look I 11 at . 410 12 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It wouldn ' t be i 13 enforcible for us to restrict that if the 14 person could actually be that big . If you 15 1 were selling four cucumbers and a couple 16 dozen ears of corn off your back lawn then 17 they would not consider that to be a large 18 amount thing that we could say yeah . 19 JIM BROWN : I just happened to - - 20 l that large area , I didn ' t happen to pick it 21 up . Maybe it was there . 22 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s one of 23 the things they said if it ' s actually needed i 411 24 then we probably can disregard that , so , I I PDQ COURT REPORTERS I i Public Informational Meeting 81 i 1 j mean , it ' s logic . 2 Any other questions ? Comments ? 3 KURT Mc MILLEN : Kurt Mc Millen . I 4 got a comment for you . I can see what you ' re 5 i trying to propose here but I can see that 6 you ' re going to have many , I call them 7 nonconforming parcels , out there that are 8 too small , like Jim ' s . He ' s not - - doesn ' t 9 j have enough road frontage to conform with 10 the guidelines and there ' s going to be many 11 I out there , and. I hope that you left 411 i 12 provisions to deal with this , you know , and 13 loosely deal with these people and what they 14 , want to do with their property - - 15 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : A 16 . nonconforming - - 17 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - to make it fair 18 for everybody . 19 ! SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : A lot that is 20 present , no matter how big it is , it has to 21 be a legal lot - - 22 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - surveyed off 24 and whatever to be a nonconforming lot , J PDQ COURT REPORTERS II Public Informational Meeting 82 1 which means that you could do - - the use in 2 the zone you ' re in you can do on that lot . 3 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 4 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : And you might 5 need a variance for front yard setbacks or 6 some things , but you can build a house on I 7 the lot or something like that . 8 , KURT Mc MILLEN : But I can see where 9 there ' s going to be a lot of instances like 10 1 Jim ' s , there ' s a lot of people out there I 11 ; just like Jim and they may be in an Ag or 12 maybe Residential lot sizes are too small , 13 frontage is too small , they don ' t have the 14 ; depth , they can ' t do anything with it , so I 15 ! guess I would expect that you people would 16 i work with them so that they can build a i 17 i house on them , sell them - - 18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s 19 1 definitely nonconforming lot . 1 20 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - and be fair . 21 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I hope there ' s 22 1 not as much as you think , because one of 23 the - - i 24 i KURT Mc MILLEN : From this map 1 PDQ COURT _ZEPORTERS F i i i 411 Public Informational Meeting 83 1 i there ' s a lot of them . 2 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , when I was 3 doing this map I also have the tax parcels !!i 4 f underneath , because that ' s one of the issues 5 that , you know , I have to address - - 6 I KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh yeah . 7 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - because it ' s not 8 j in the interest of the Town to have a whole 9 i lot of these nonconforming lots , okay , so - - 10 I and for instance , there was a lot of debate 1i -� early on about the red , the R2 zoning along 12 the lake , you know , and the reason that ' s 13 there is you don ' t want to zone that Rural 14 I Residential because it will put every one of 15 I those lots into legal nonconformity . 1 16 E KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 17 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : They ' re too small . 18 And see , some of the Rural Residential 19 I scattered throughout the Al Agricultural 20 i District , same thing , there ' s no sense in I 21 zoning them Al Agricultural , they ' ve got 22 ! houses on them and , you know , plus you ' re 23 putting burden P g a not only on the property 24 owners but on the Town , because I think the PDQ COURT REPORTERS 7 Public Informational Meeting 84 I 1 Zoning Board has a lot better things to do 2 than meet weekly to deal with nonconforming 3 1 lots . 4 KURT Mc MILLEN : But you say you 5 have tax maps for this that would define it 6 much better , you know , you may find some of 7 the smaller parcels have slipped through the 8 cracks - - 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again - - t 10 1 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - are ii nonconforming . 411 12 When will the people be notified 13 ( actually what they ' re going to be in ? 14 ! GEORGE FRANTZ : Land - - they ' ll be 15 I notified hopefully , you know , when - - once 16 . we adopt the map . I don ' t know if we can 17 notify everybody , you know , what their 18 zoning is . That would be a whole lot of , 19 f you know , very costly time , but certainly { 20 let people know that , hey , there ' s a zoning 21 map in Town Hall , you know , come look at it . 22 KURT Mc MILLEN : I guess what I ' m 23 getting at is if they don ' t know and there 24 is a problem and they come to you later and PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 i - ' 1p I /' 11 r r i I • : I I q _ ! I c 1 41 t > 5b E . , r a rj r 11 i {r If 1 III I Public Informational Meeting 85 i 1 { they say , well , jeez , I ' ve got a 2 three - quarter acre lot here and I ' m in an Al 3 i District , what do I do with it ? Maybe call 4 1 Brownie up and he can put his wagon on it . 5 i JIM BROWN : Small one . 6 KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah , small one . 7 What are you gong to do ? This is why I 8 think people are going to be notified what 9 they ' re actually going to be into . This is 10 a good general map and an overview . 11 I GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again , you ' re 411 12 � not seeing the property lines - - 13 { KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - on the map but 15 � when I was drawing the map I could see them , I 16 : you know , it ' s a click of the mouse they 17 I come up . 18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Probably when we 19 do - - actually do a map it will have the 20 property lines on the big map . 21 KURT Mc MILLEN : It might be a good 22 thing to have ahead of time so that people 23 i have a problem with what they ' re in - - III 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We actually have 1 1 PDQ COURT REPORTERS F-^ I I Public Informational Meeting 86 i I 1 one . 2 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - they can ask 3 questions as to why . 4 ' SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s some 5 i little ones over there . I think they have 6 parcels on them . I 7 i KURT Mc MILLEN : This map 8 ( indicating ) ? 9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Is that the one ? 10 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : No , there ' s one 411 11 i just like that that has the parcels on it . 12 1 Hold up yours , Roxanne . 13 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It ' s like that 14 right there ( indicating ) . 15 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : It ' s not a 16 very useful scale if you ' re trying to look 17 j at very small detail like you ' re talking 18 i about . I 19 I GEORGE FRANTZ : Did I have one of 20 those up full size ? I thought I did . 21 I There ' s a large one . 22 ' COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It ' s a - - try 23 and you can get a rough idea , but the scale 24 is hard to look at detail . PDQ COURT REPORTERS 411 Public Informational Meeting 87 I 1 KURT Mc MILLEN : But still I guess 2 you ' re missing the point , the rough idea - - 3 i COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : No , that ' s 4 what I ' m asking . 5 1 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - when you slam 6 j the hammer and you make a decision on each 7 other - - 8 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : The final lines 9 f have to follow the property lines . 10 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 11 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Right . Usually 12 the zoning line will follow the property 13 line . What I ' m saying is this is what I 14 I you ' ll end up with ( indicating ) . 15 j KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh , yeah . 16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This has all the I 17 I parcels on it so when you get the zoning on 18 it - - I 19 I JIM BROWN : Is West Shore Gas and 20 grocery in a commercial zone there ? It ' s 21 1 hard to see . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes . 23 J _ M I BROWN : How many acres ? 24 ( GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s actually the PDQ COURT REPORTERS p 4 C y I i 1 �ryp u. u. I. 1 I 3 1 L iE H r +It4 1 411 . Public Informational Meeting 88 I 1 last - 2 ( Whereupon the reporter announced 3 I that she was off the record because of too 4 many conversations going on at once ) 5 I COUNCILMAN ELLIS : I think - - 6 € GEORGE FRANTZ : Go ahead . I 7 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Thank you for 8 that comment . That ' s really an important 9 ; point that you ' re pointing at . There has 10 been some talk about actually having a 411 11 I registry of nonconforming properties to help 12 ; with the issue that you ' re on . I don ' t know 13 what the challenge is in creating that . I 14 i don ' t think it ' s an easy task but certainly 15 ? if it was created it would then be possible 16 to notify people . 17 KURT Mc MILLEN :! i Sure . I ' m not 18 saying that any of this is an easy task 19 because you ' re not going to please anyone 20 I personally but you want to make it fair to 21 everybod I y , you know , and try to - - try to go 22 with what the lot ' s wants or needs are , 23 because the taxes have been paid and the 1 24 41) amount of land they own , what they intended PDQ COURT REPORTERS I 1 Public Informational Meeting 89 to do with it when they first bought it , I 2 feel for Stanley , he ' s got hundreds of acres 3 and now you say , okay , he can only sell 4 certain size lots . Maybe he planned on 5 I making X number of dollars off it . Well , 6 maybe you ' ve reduced that by the factor of 7 I ten , maybe ten times or , you know , you don ' t 8 i know . 9 i GEORGE FRANTZ : Now , West Shore I I 10 I Grocery - - 11 1 JIM BROWN : Yes . Just curious as to I 12 � how many acres were in that commercial 13 property at that point ? 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . The - - the - , 15 i again , that - - it ' s there , there ' s a small I 16 zoning district that would allow - - I ' m 17 I trying to find it , see if I have it here . 18 JIM BROWN : The reason I ask is 1 19 $ because there ' s been some health problems 20 there in the family and I don ' t think she ' s I 21 ' aware of what ' s actually going on here . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : And that property 23 ! has a lot of issues including a good chunk i 24 1 of it being within the Route 89 I PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meetinc 90 1 right - of -way , okay , so - - but the zoning 2 there is , you know , large enough to allow 3 I that business to continue and again to allow 1 4 for at least some expansion , redevelopment I 5 of the site . 6 JIM BROWN : Was it on both sides of 7 j the road , do you recall ? Because there is a 8 field on the other side of the road . 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , the field on 10 1 the other side is part of Camp Comstock or 11 1 Bailiwick . 12 i SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No . I 13 I GEORGE FRANTZ : No ? 14 JIM BROWN : It ' s about four or five 15 acres there that belong to the Fletcher 16 property . 17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Anything on the east 18 side would be zoned - - then maybe I made a 19 I mistake . Okay , yeah , I ' m sorry . There ' s 20 I this field right between Comstock and 21 Bailiwick , okay , yeah . i 22 JIM BROWN : Right . 23 GEORGE FRANTZ : That is zoned Rural 24 Residential or proposed to be zoned Rural L.._ - - _ PDQ COURT REPORTERS r- I i Public Informational Meeting 91 I I 1 1 Residential . 2 f JIM BROWN : Okay . Like I say , I 3 don ' t think , you know , that they ' ve had some 4 I health problems in the family , I don ' t think 5 she ' s aware of what ' s going on at the 6 meetings . I thought she might like to know . 7 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : When I again looked 8 at what ' s out there now in terms of size I 9 and , you know , how much to expand , I 10 actually had the tax parcel maps and it 11 really struck me , you know , how much of the 12 I canopy is actually right in - - 13 JIM BROWN : Oh , correct . 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - the highway 15 right - of - way so . . . 16 STAN KOSKINEN : I got a question 17 that shoots this 500 frontage right in the 18 rearend . Suppose a guy owns a lot that ' s 19 400 feet wide and 800 feet deep and it ' s a 20 i � separate lot and it ' s not in an Ag District 21 what can he sell it for ? He can ' t sell it 22 because it ' s not the 500 feet but there ' s 23 ! two 200 - foot building lots on that frontage . 411 1 24 � There ' s more than enough acreage in the i PDQ COURT REPORTERS _ I i Public Informational Meeting 92 1 whole thing to qualify for the three acres 2 for a lot . 3 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , you know , I 4 II again , from. what I ' ve heard this 500 feet is 5 ! still under discussion and right now as far 6 as arithmetic , again I don ' t want to get 7 j into specific properties , specific 8 � instances , because - - 9 STAN KOSKINEN : Well , you ' re going 10 to have to sooner or later . 11 GEORGE FRANTZ : Eventually , yes . 410 12 ; STAN KOSKINEN : Is there a variance ? , 13 Can you apply for a variance ? 14 f GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , absolutely . 15 And if - - if there ' s no subdivision of that i 16 lot it ' s a legal nonconforming lot . But 17 ! yeah , the variance process is , you know , a , 18 mechanism open to all property owners . It ' s 19 supposed to be that safety valve for 20 1 instances like this . 21 1 STAN KOSKINEN : But there ' s still 22 the discretion of the Zoning Appeals Board 23 if they want you to do it or they don ' t want 24 you to do it , which still if they turned it PDQ COURT REPORTERS i Public Informational Meeting 93 1 1 down still takes away from what he actually 2 I could have sold two lots for instead of one . 3 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : It ' s definitely 4 J inconvenient to people but that ' s really the 5 sort of hands down - - that ' s the hands - down 6 j case , you know , that someone has a lot 7 i that ' s 400 by 800 deep and because of the 8 change it ' s nonconforming and , you know , if j the ruling is 500 , I mean , you can hardly 10 I define a cleaner hardship case . That ' s one 11 that the zoning has got to deal with . 12 STAN KOSKINEN : If you ' re left with 13 j 200 you ' re fine . i 1 14 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Any other 15 j comments ? I 16 KURT Mc MILLIEN : I have one more . 17 ? The people owning more land that they really 18 desire in brush lots and cases and so on , 19 i I ' d just like to bring up that there was an 20 I individual that was cited for having - - not 21 i in this Township , it was the Town of 22 i Enfield , he had some other problems , but in 23 1 addition to it they cited him for having i 24 ' non - maintained land , and I can ' t remember kI PDQ COURT REPORTERS fr SPublic Informational Meeting 94 1 what the verbage actually was , but it was 4 2 about brush and tall grass on the property , 3 and I wondered how you ' re going to address 4 j that . 5 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That he was i 6 cited under the New York State Building 7 f) Code . 8 KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah , that was in 9 the paper . That was in writing . You read 10 it . 11 I SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know . I 12 know . 13 KURT Mc MILLEN : And they mentioned 14 ( tall grass and brush and that , you know , 15 stuff that hasn ' t been maintained - - 16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s true . I 17 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - so . . . I 18 i SUflRVISOR AUSTIC : That wasn ' t 19 ! their Zoning Ordinance . 1 20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , there was 21 ; an awful lot of violations in this County . i 22 KURT Mc MILLEN : I ' m just trying 23 a to bring it up to you . 24 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : And one of the w fI 1 PDQ COURT REPORTERS i I 411 Public Informational Meeting 95 Ii 1 things that I ' ve said many times in the 2 course of , you know , putting together 3 this new Zoning Ordinance is that , you 4 know , if it ' s - - if it ' s not economically 5 viable as farmland it ' s going to grow up to 6 brush . 7 i KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh , sure . 8 GEORGE FRANTZ : And if it grows up 9 to brush there ' s no sense in it being zoned 10 Al Agriculture anymore . 11 KURT Mc MILLEN : But if you ' re 410 12 going to require a large lot size you ' re - - 13 I are you going to require them to mow all ten 14 acres of that lust to keep it aesthetically 15 pleasing ? 16 ! GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , there ' s I 17 nothing in the zoning that would 18 require that . And as Doug said , in the 19 case you were talking about it was Building 20 i Code . 21 j KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah . Ii 22 I GEORGE FRANTZ : But the , you know , 23 again , I ' ve been dealing with doing rural 410 24 planning for twenty years and agriculture PDQ COURT REPORTERS 411 I, Public Informational Meeting 96 1 and the biggest gg i ssue is the economic 2 1 viability of our farms - - 3 j KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 4 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - number one . 5 i Number two , just as big , is , well , as 6 ; you know , Stan , there ' s not a whole lot of i 7 - young farmers out there standing in line to 8 j buy farms so - -- and I ' m at least aware of 9 that . But I do think , I mean , there ' s been 10 some pretty meaty ideas come out of this 11 meeting . It was , you know , small crowd but 12 a high ualit one , so . . . q Y 13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I mean , we could 14 ( sit around and talk about this all night 15 1 amongst the seven or eight of us , which is I 16 what we ' ve done for years , and we don ' t - - 17 ' we might not see everything the way 18 � everybody else sees it . We don ' t think 19 about what somebody else sees . 20 ; So , that ' s the idea of this whole 21 thing , so we ' ll have to take this into 22 I consideration before we get down and 23 decidina what the law ' s actually going to 24 1 be , we ' ll have to add the comments we ' ve i PDQ COURT REPORTERS i I I Public Informational Meeting - 97 1 i heard here and make some changes . 2 Thank you all for coming . 3 ( Whereupon the proceedings concluded 4 i at 8 : 40 PM ) 5 * * * * * 6 7 8 9 10 11 S12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ' 22 1 23 24 f PDQ COURT REPORTERS I i i98 1 STATE OF NEW YORK : 2 i COUNTY OF CORTLAND : 3 I 4 5 i I , MICHELE L . RICE , RPR , do hereby 6 certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate 7 transcription of the proceedings in the Matter of a 8 PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING , held in Trumansburg , 9 1 New York , on the 24th day of February , 2004 . I 10 11 I� 12 i 13 14 I �, ► L , ( a-J A E 15 1 MICH LE L . RICE , RPR Notary Public 16 I PDQ Court Reporters 746 Route 41 17 , Smithville Flats , NY 13841 ( 607 ) 863 - 4911 18 19 20 21 22 ' 23 1 24 1 1 STATE OF NEW YORK 2 3 IN THE MATTER OF A PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING 4 5 Re : TOWN OF ULYSSES DRAFT ZONING ORDINANCE 6 7 8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 9 PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING ; 10 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 11 Held at Trumansburg High School , Trumansburg , 12 New York , on the 24th day of February , 2004 , 13 commencing at 7 : 04 PM . 14 REPORTED BY : PDQ COURT REPORTERS 15 MICHELE L . RICE , RPR Notary Public 16 746 Route 41 Smithville Flats , New York 13841 17 ( 607 ) 863 - 4911 18 APPEARANCES : 19 TOWN BOARD : Supervisor Douglas Austic 20 Councilwoman Roxanne Marino Councilman Don Ellis 21 Councilman Lee Scott Councilman Robert Weatherby 22 Town Clerk Marsha Georgia 23 PLANNING BOARD : 24 Chairman Richard Coogan Public Informational Meeting 2 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We might as well 2 get started . 3 What we ' re going to do is Mr . Frantz 4 is going to give a brief - - a brief synopsis 5 of the Zoning Ordinance and I think maybe 6 most of you have seen it on the Internet or 7 have copies that you ' ve picked up at the 8 Town Hall or there are copies over there 9 ( indicating ) . 10 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : His 11 presentation is over there ( indicating ) . 12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : His presentation 13 is over there if you want a copy of that to 14 follow along with ( indicating ) . 15 So , I think since this is relatively 16 small group then we ' ll let George explain 17 the general purpose and the ideas behind the 18 Zoning Ordinance and then open it up to 19 questions and take your comments . We ' re not 20 here to try and figure out what ' s wrong or 21 how it ' s wrong . We ' re just here to take 22 your comments to find out what you think 23 needs improving or what changes we might be 24 able to make to this Ordinance . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 3 1 And we ' re having a stenographer take 2 notes , so if you want - - if you want to 3 speak maybe you ' d be better off coming up a 4 little closer so she can be sure to get what It 5 you ' re saying for the record . 6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : And maybe give 7 your name . 8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : And give your 9 name . 10 With that , what ' s this all about , 11 George ? 12 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . Way back when 13 when we got started essentially my goal was 14 to write for the Town of Ulysses a Zoning 15 Ordinance that would help protect 16 agricultural land ; help to channel 17 development into areas of the Town , I would 18 say intense - - more intensive residential , 19 industrial , commercial development into 20 areas of the Town closer to Route 96 in the 21 Village of Trumansburg ; provide adequate 22 land for any - - actually more than any 23 anticipated future residential or commercial 24 development ; put development that - - in PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 4 1 places where it would best utilize the 2 investment into the - - in the new water line 3 up Route 96 to Jacksonville , okay ? That was 4 one goal . 5 Another goal was to provide really 6 clear definitions of the various terms that 7 are used in a Zoning Ordinance , and 8 unfortunately many times they sort of forget 9 to define certain terms so there ' s confusion 10 between residents , Code Enforcement 11 Officers , Zoning Officers , and sometimes 12 even on the various Town Boards . Not just 13 here in Ulysses but everywhere through New 14 York and Pennsylvania where I do my work . 15 Sort of hopefully lay out better 16 procedures for the Planning Board and Zoning 17 Board of Appeals . Again , sort of clarify 18 the situation so it ' s really easier for 19 everybody who has to go before the Boards , 20 they know what they need to do , the Boards 21 know what they need to do , okay ? And also 22 provide some standards so that in the future 23 the commercial development , the industrial 24 development , that occurs is well described PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 5 1 and doesn ' t have major impacts on primarily 2 adjoining residential areas . Okay ? 3 So , they were sort of the overall 4 goal , and what I came up with was , excuse 5 me , a dozen or so new Zoning Districts . The 6 Al Agricultural , which is - - if you look on 7 the maps is the yellow and covers most of 8 the Town ( indicating ) . 9 The next Zoning District , the orange 10 on the maps , is the Rural Residential Zoning 11 District ( indicating ) . It ' s Residential 12 District , it also allows Agriculture . It 13 has lot sizes of two acres . Okay ? 14 A Moderate Density Residential 15 District , which is the red on the map , and 16 you can see it ' s around the Village of 17 Trumansburg and down in the southwest - - 18 southeastern corner of the Town 19 ( indicating ) . The idea is that they would 20 be the areas where in the future we can 21 direct the more intensive residential 22 developments in the Town . The lot sizes 23 are - - minimum lot size is set at 32 , 000 24 square feet , which is roughly three - quarters PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 6 1 of an acre . Okay ? And the idea is to have 2 people have major residential development 3 happen where there ' s either public water , 4 municipal water , in some cases perhaps 5 municipal sewer , but at least in the future 6 there ' s also the potential for having 7 municipal water and municipal sewer in those 8 areas , okay ? 9 The next District , the Hamlet 10 District , is the purple on the map , and 11 essentially it ' s - - the large one is 12 centered on Jacksonville and there ' s a 13 smaller one there centered on Waterburg , 14 okay ( indicating ) ? And the zoning there 15 allows a mix of retail and commercial 16 development - - excuse me , retail development 17 and residential development but more at 18 densities you see in traditional Upstate New 19 York villages . You can have lot sizes as 20 small as 6 , 000 square feet if you have 21 public - - probably if you have municipal 22 water and some sort of - - you ' re not going 23 to be able to do it with on lot septic but 24 there ' s a potential perhaps for , you know , PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 7 1 larger developments that might have a 2 package treatment plant , or again at some 3 point in the future there may be the 4 possibility of having public or municipal 5 sewer service in Jacksonville , okay ? 6 Let ' s see , what ' s the next one ? 7 STAN KOSKINEN : Are we going to get 8 a Wal - Mart in Jacksonville ? 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : I doubt it . 10 STAN KOSKINEN : You said it ' s 11 retail . 12 GEORGE FRANTZ : The two sort of 13 specialized Districts that I ' ve proposed is , 14 one , a Multiple Residence District , which 15 would allow apartment complexes subject to 16 site plan approval by the Planning Board and 17 also Town Board approval of the rezoning , 18 okay ? And there ' s also some design 19 guidelines standards I should say that any 20 applicant would have to meet before they got 21 Town approval , things like additional 22 setbacks , how you have to design the 23 parking , how large the buildings can be , how 24 much of the lot can actually be developed PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 8 1 for that type of housing . 2 And then the other sort of special 3 district is the Manufactured Home Park 4 District , which on the map you can see 5 northwest of the Village the green area and 6 then there ' s the - - the mobile home park 7 there along Route 96 next to the old 8 Drive - Inn , okay ( indicating ) ? So , that 9 District sort of accommodates the two mobile 10 home parks within the Town and again it 11 gives the Town a little more leverage if 12 they want to expand , there ' s standards there 13 too just like for the Multiple Residence 14 zone that the owners would have to meet . 15 Next is the 131 Business District , and 16 these are fairly hard to see on the map 17 because essentially what we ' ve done is we 18 have one here northwest - - on the northwest 19 corner of the Village and then the largest 20 one is actually down here ( indicating ) . We 21 already have Maguire , we ' ve got Shur Save , 22 and the smaller businesses . Along the south 23 side of 96 going down the highway we ' ve got 24 where Bar Angus is , Stover Lumber , the auto PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 9 1 repair shop ( indicating ) . 2 And we get into Jacksonville and 3 we ' ve got the area around Ulysses Square , I 4 continuing down Rascals and that small 5 commercial area , the old Spikes Barbecue 6 Restaurant . And again a little bit of area 7 on both sides of the highway there . And 8 then down Sleeping Bear , Paradise Cafe , the 9 Honda motorcycle place ( indicating ) . Along 10 96 right now they ' re all - - there ' s retail 11 development in these areas , the idea is to 12 make the areas large enough so there ' s also 13 possibility for future expansion if the 14 market requires or allows it , I should say . 15 Other places , Taughannock Farms Inn , 16 the old Cuba Inn , an area north of it , the 17 old motel down south of Craft Road , and of 18 course the Glenwood Pines ( indicating ) . 19 KURT Mc MILLEN : What was the pink ? 20 GEORGE FRANTZ : This pink - - 21 actually these two pinks are actually the 22 Multiple Resident Zones that we ' re 23 establishing now . This is the True Haven 24 Apartments and this is the old motel in PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 10 1 Jacksonville that is now essentially 2 apartments ( indicating ) . 3 KURT Mc MILLEN : What is the 4 classification ? 5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , it ' s pink on 6 this map , it ' s pink , yeah , it ' s the same . 7 A VOICE : And you said it ' s what 8 classification , zoning classification ? 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . The problem 10 is on the map it ' s showing a pink , on the 11 legend it ' s showing up this teal color , so 12 it ' s the RM Multiple Residence District , 13 okay ? Sorry about that . Just noticed that . 14 The two pink areas , those are again 15 existing apartment complexes , small 16 apartment complexes that were proposing to 17 just , you know , zone them the Multiple 18 Residence District . Okay ? 19 Then two more . The Light Industrial 20 District , which would again allow light 21 industry well defined in the Zoning 22 Ordinance . Essentially it ' s industry where 23 you - - the businesses would fabricate 24 product , however the components , the raw PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 11 1 materials , that would be very limited , i . e . 2 they would be buying components from the 3 primary manufacturers or sources and then 4 assembling the product on site . It ' s not 5 like - - actually they ' re not even like that . 6 The old - fashioned plants where you had , 7 let ' s say , a foundry to make the products 8 that would then be used in the manufacturing 9 process . What light industry is generally 10 defined as being is industry where all the 11 heavy - duty , dirty stuff is done elsewhere 12 and components are brought in and put 13 together on the site using really no more 14 than electric motors , okay ? And the Light 15 Industry Districts will also allow office 16 and research type businesses also , okay ? 17 And again , we ' ve got here at the 18 south end of Town , we ' ve already had the old 19 Babcock facility , Ithaca Millwork in that 20 area , Alpine Machine Shop , plus again room 21 for expansion , room for new businesses to 22 maybe come in and locate there , okay ? 23 And then up here , is this still 24 Agriculture ? Yeah , the Agriculture Complex PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 Public Informational Meeting 12 1 here , the corner of Park Road and Route 96 , 2 so two Light Industrial areas . 3 And then finally the last district is 4 in the dark green on the map , it ' s the Park 5 and Recreation District , and it ' s like the 6 Rural Residential although it ' s intended to 7 more recognize - - it ' s , as you can see , 8 including and adjacent to Taughannock Falls 9 State Park and the Cayuga Nature Center , 10 okay ( indicating ) ? 11 So , that ' s the proposed zoning in a 12 nutshell . I think it ' s rather - - I could 13 put you guys to sleep in another ten minutes 14 going through the District regulations in 15 detail but I think , you know , I ' ve pretty 16 well covered . I think the best thing to do 17 is open it up to questions , you know , see 18 what your concerns are . 19 Actually , how many people have 20 actually read the Zoning Ordinance ? 21 ( Show of hands ) 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . That ' s what I 23 sort of figured . It ' s , you know , it ' s - - I 24 don ' t think it would qualify as - - it ' s not PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 13 1 going to make the New York Times 2 Bestseller ' s List but as Zoning Ordinances 3 go though it ' s , I think from what I hear , 4 it ' s been pretty well read , so , but . . . 5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Kurt , why don ' t 6 you - - I think the stenographer needs to 7 hear you , why don ' t you just come up front . 8 A VOICE : Give us your name . 9 KURT DUNNAM : This is quick and 10 brief . Kurt Dunnam , D - U - N - N - A - M . I live 11 over on Perry City Road . 12 The two things that I had brought up 13 I didn ' t see in the Ordinance and in fact I 14 did see it quickly reviewing it today . I 15 was a little concerned about and there may 16 be something in there now regarding 17 permanent foundations for structures . This 18 is something we hadn ' t considered previously 19 and if it hasn ' t been considered , I note 20 it ' s a rather late stage of the game , but I 21 brought this up about a year ago , I didn ' t 22 hear a reply on it , I would like to see 23 whether we can get something in there for 24 permanent foundations for structures such as PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 14 1 the doublewides and that sort of thing . 2 GEORGE FRANTZ : What are you 3 defining as permanent foundation ? 4 KURT DUNNAM : Well , you know , I ' m 5 not a contractor or an expert on it but I 6 would say something other than temporary 7 pilings or piers . 8 GEORGE FRANTZ : So , prefab walls or 9 something or a block wall ? 10 KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , I think so . 11 Something that provides some sort of wind 12 shielding . Also more permanent attachment 13 than that sort of thing . I leave details to e 14 the experts . 15 But the other thing was on towers , i 16 this is very simple and straightforward , I 17 don ' t think there was an exception for 18 private , that is not commercial , towers 19 under 100 feet reading through the section 20 very quickly , that appears to be overlooked 21 for , you know , HAM radio operators . And 22 maybe you want to put up a 45 - foot tower or 23 TV antenna on it , which is a little unusual 24 in this day and age but it might be PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 15 1 something we ' d want to do at some point , but 2 there ' s no provision for doing that without 3 requesting a variance it looks like . Simple 4 change . That ' s it . 5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . I think that 6 tele - - even HAM radio operators , it gets 7 into , you know , the Telecommunications Act 8 and - - 9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We discussed 10 this and I don ' t - - when we were discussing 11 personal towers for TV antenna type of thing 12 for your own home , there was something that 13 it wouldn ' t fall under the category of a 14 tower if I remember right . 15 KURT DUNNAM : Well , my impression is 16 it used to be that under 100 feet was 17 considered generally exempt , you know , 18 whether it was commercial or non - commercial , 19 and I think that sort of inadvertently fell 20 by the wayside . 21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' ll have to - - 22 KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , you might want 23 to look at the language . 24 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : - - relook at it . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 16 1 KURT DUNNAM : That would be the 2 concern . And in general I think 3 non - commercial use under 100 feet should be 4 exempt . No lighting ' s required under 5 federal law , FAA regulations , and generally 6 a tower that ' s below 100 feet is not a 7 visible use that presents a structural 8 hazard . 9 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I think I 10 remember that and it was something that it 11 wasn ' t freestanding , maybe it was attached 12 to the house or something . 13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We better look 14 back . 15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It had 16 something to do with whether it was 17 freestanding or not . 18 KURT DUNNAM : Yeah , I ' ll be glad to 19 talk with anybody who has questions about 20 specifics on that . 21 STAN KOSKINEN : My name is Stan 22 Koskinen . You want me to spell the last 23 name ? 24 COURT REPORTER : Please . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 17 1 STAN KOSKINEN : Koskinen is 2 K - O - S - K - I - N - E - N . I ' ve been here since 1930 . 3 I wasn ' t born here , I came here and then we 4 didn ' t have zoning and everybody - - nobody 5 mistreated anybody , they had respect for 6 everybody ' s property . And my wife and I 7 haven ' t ever had a job , we ' ve always worked 8 in and developed our empire , which is now 9 500 acres . And we want the privilege of 10 selling building lots . That ' s my - - that ' s 11 our retirement . And 500 feet is much too 12 much . We have sold some over the years and 13 people don ' t want more than 200 feet . If 14 they want more than that they ' ll buy two 15 lots for their privacy , so why should it be 16 500 feet ? That ' s our retirement . 17 And another thing , if you have a flag 18 lot the zoning says you have to have 100 - 19 foot frontage the way I read it . Is that 20 right ? 21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : In the proposal 22 there , yep . 23 STAN KOSKINEN : Why should it be 100 24 feet ? That ' s a half a building lot . People PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 18 1 don ' t want to mow all that stuff . The Town 2 and the County right - of - way is only three 3 rods wide , which is about 50 feet , why 4 should it be more than 50 feet to get back 5 to the flag lot ? 6 And another thing , there ' s 7 restrictions on how deep the lot should be . 8 It can ' t be - - it can ' t be too - - over so 9 many feet . Some lots don ' t fit that because 10 it runs into somebody else ' s property . Some 11 of them go farther back . You can still get 12 your three acres out of it by going far 13 enough back , no problem . 14 That ' s my own personal property . I ' m 15 probably one of the few individuals that has 16 that . 17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That has 18 personal property ? I don ' t know , Stan . 19 GEORGE FRANTZ : Do we still have the 20 maximum lot depth ? 21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s still in 22 the zoning . That ' s what we ' re here for . We 23 don ' t - - we came to a point where we had 24 talked about this stuff amongst the Planning PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 19 1 Board and the Town Board several meetings 2 and we just came to a point where we didn ' t 3 know what we wanted to do - - we knew what we 4 wanted to do but we didn ' t know what the 5 people are going to think about what we want 6 to do , so that ' s what we ' re here for , to try 7 and find out if what we ' re thinking would 8 work as to what you ' re thinking . So , what 9 we ' re doing is we ' re trying to take comments 10 to see your opinions and then we ' ll have to 11 go back and think what we were doing again 12 and see what we can come up with to 13 accommodate . 14 STAN KOSKINEN : My feeling is that 15 people that are sitting at the head table 16 should not make decisions for people that 17 are paying the taxes . 18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s why we ' re 19 asking you , so we can - - 20 STAN KOSKINEN : I just told you . 21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right . 22 STAN KOSKINEN : If I have a buyer 23 that wants 200 feet of frontage and that ' s 24 all he wants I should have the right to sell PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 20 1 him that . If he wants 300 feet I should 2 have that right . If he wants to buy that 3 it ' s a mutual agreement between two parties . 4 And if you have 500 feet of frontage it ' s 5 going to grow up to brush because modern 6 people both have to work to make a living to 7 make the mortgage payments and they ' re not 8 going to have time to take care of it . 9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Done ? 10 STAN KOSKINEN : I ' m done on that 11 subject . 12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right . 13 SANDY KLINE : Okay . My name is 14 Sandy Kline and we have the property right 15 here , everything here from here to here to 16 here ( indicating ) . Everybody around us is 17 Residential . We don ' t have a farm . We 18 don ' t own any tractors and we don ' t do any 19 agricultural work . We could but we don ' t . 20 Well , we have some of the best prime land 21 sitting there but people can ' t afford the 22 taxes that you want . You people charge a 23 fortune in taxes on that prime road frontage 24 for years and years and years . Now you ' re PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 21 1 telling us we can ' t sell it unless we break 2 it up into 500 - foot lots . Well , there are 3 people that want the property , they don ' t 4 want to pay 500 foot , they don ' t want that 5 much property . And why is it everybody else 6 around us is Residential but. we ' re 7 Agriculture in our own little corner there ? 8 It doesn ' t make any sense . Who decides it ' s 9 Agricultural or Residential ? We just live 10 there , we don ' t farm it . 11 GEORGE FRANTZ : It was - - again , 12 it ' s proposed for Agricultural because - - 13 SANDY KLINE : There ' s no work barn 14 on anyplace . There ' s no tractors . 15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Is the land being 16 farmed ? 17 SANDY KLINE : We rent it out for 18 $ 300 a year just so it helps pay the taxes 19 on it , but we can stop doing that . 20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , you can stop 21 doing it but again - - 22 SANDY KLINE : We could put in a pig 23 farm or we could open it up for some more 24 businesses , or don ' t you guys want PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 22 1 Trumansburg to grow at all ? Do you want it 2 to just stay the way it is ? It ' s not 3 like - - it ' s on a main highway . It ' s not 4 out of - - it ' s not like you ' re on a back 5 road or anything . I mean , it ' s one of the 6 prime pieces of front Residential land 7 you ' ve got left on 96 that ' s still vacant 8 and it ' s up for sale . 9 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Can I ask , do 10 you have an Ag Assessment on your property ? 11 SANDY KLINE : Pardon me ? 12 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Do you get an 13 Ag Assessment on the taxes on that property 14 right now ? 15 DAVE KLINE : Do we get a what ? 16 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : An Agriculture 17 Assessment . 18 DAVE KLINE : I don ' t believe so . 19 SANDY KLINE : No , they just mailed 20 us - - 21 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : You get a 22 reduction in the assessment of the property 23 if it ' s Agricultural ? 24 SANDY KLINE : No , not at all . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 23 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Just asking . 2 SANDY KLINE : We pay for prime road 3 frontage . 4 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But I don ' t 5 think road frontage - - does road frontage 6 cost any more in taxes than the rest of the 7 property ? 8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It is if they - - 9 I don ' t know . 10 SANDY KLINE : Yes . 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If they 12 determine that it might be commercial or 13 something it ' s a possibility . 14 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : If they 15 determine it ' s a viable building lot , yes , 16 possible building lots , yes . I 17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If you were to 18 subdivide the piece into 300 - feet lots even 19 though nobody were there they would assess 20 you differently than it would be one big 21 piece . 22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Oh , okay . But 23 it ' s not divided that way right now ? 24 DAVE KLINE : What ' s that ? PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 24 1 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Your 2 property ' s not divided now so you ' re not 3 paying a higher assessment right now just 4 because it ' s road frontage ? I ' m just trying 5 to clarify that . I ' m unaware - - 6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I don ' t think 7 it ' s just because road frontage . 8 DAVE KLINE : Well , I guess what 9 she ' s saying is why are we - - we ' re not 10 paying taxes on what you ' re calling a 11 property Agricultural as being paid as a 12 Business and now you get this guy out of 13 Town that comes in , he says all of a sudden 14 this is Agricultural . 15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Oh , so it ' s 16 all Business right now ? 1 17 DAVE KLINE : It ' s Residential 18 Business . 19 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Business for 20 all of your property ? 21 GEORGE FRANTZ : The County 22 Assessment Department in theory assesses 23 properties based on comparable sales , i . e . 24 sale of property that is comparable to that , PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 25 1 and they are also supposedly taking into 2 account zoning . 3 I think one of the issues was zoning 4 in the Town of Ulysses now and one of the 5 things that this Zoning Ordinance is trying 6 to address is that , you know , Business , you 7 can have a business along Route 96 8 practically anywhere and so County 9 Assessment is at - - could be looking at all 10 the property along the road as potentially 11 developable for Business . 12 DAVE KLINE : But you ' re telling me I 13 can ' t put a business there . 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : I have proposed a 15 zoning map for the Town Board to decide . 16 DAVE KLINE : Well , you made a 17 statement here with these - - the blue areas 18 that you made it big enough for future 19 growth . Where is it big enough for future 20 growth where mine is ? 21 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , yours I think 22 if it ' s where the body shop is - - 23 DAVE KLINE : Yes . 24 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - I believe that ' s PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 26 1 allowed for about doubling of the amount of . 2 That was generally my rule of thumb . 3 DAVE KLINE : Which one of these is 4 right ( indicating ) ? They don ' t agree . You 5 got on one of them it says minimum lot three 6 acres and then the other one says ten acres . 7 Minimum frontage 500 , on the other one it 8 says 1 , 000 . 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . What I did , 10 the one that I did last week I did not 11 include the provisions in - - what is it - - 12 4 . 6 ? 13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This one ' s 14 probably closer ( indicating ) . 15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Use this one 16 ( indicating ) . 17 DAVE KLINE : So , you ' re going from 18 minimum 500 frontage , now it ' s got to be 19 1 , 000 frontage ? 20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , 500 foot is 21 what ' s being proposed . 22 DAVE KLINE : Pardon ? 23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : 500 foot one is 24 the one that ' s being proposed at this point . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 27 1 DAVE KLINE : You just said this one 2 was , this one ' s 1 , 000 ( indicating ) . 3 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : That was for 4 Agricultural lots , not Residential lots . 5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s an 6 Agricultural lot . A Residential lot is less 7 in the Ag District . 8 DAVE KLINE : So , let ' s say this 9 thing goes through and our whole frontage 10 here is Ag 1 . Is that saying you can ' t ever 11 change it to business or anything ? 12 GEORGE FRANTZ : No . 13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , it ' s not 14 saying that . You could request . 15 DAVE KLINE : Then we ' d have to go in 16 front of the Board and public hearings 17 and - - 18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Or , you know , 19 there ' s always the possibility , we probably 20 will review this in a certain number of 21 years and maybe we ' ll determine that it 22 wasn ' t correct the way we had done it the 23 first time . You do have some commercial on 24 your place and it ' s bigger than it is there PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 28 1 now . 2 DAVE KLINE : It doesn ' t look it . 3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , it ' s hard 4 to see it on the map . It is a tad bigger . 5 DAVE KLINE : Does anybody here know 6 what a Section 305 - A is , the Agricultural 7 use is , the law ? 8 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I know . 9 DAVE KLINE : What is it ? 10 GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s the section 11 that gives the Department of Ag & Markets 12 certain powers . It ' s the section that sets 13 up the Agricultural District Program . 14 DAVE KLINE : What does it mean so I 15 can understand it ? 16 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , I ' m not an 17 attorney and I don ' t have the law memorized , 18 but you can go to the website and read it . 19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It establishes 20 the Department of Ag & Markets and how they 21 operate it . Then you go on to other 22 sections and it will tell you what - - what 23 some of the regulations may be or what they 24 are . But it ' s the - - it ' s the establishing PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 29 1 law for Ag & Markets , 305 is . 2 DAVE KLINE : In this article you had 3 in the paper it says that the Board could 4 reserve 50 , 000 to 75 , 000 in the Town ' s 5 budget to pay for development rights and 6 preserve space since the Board cannot tell 7 people how to use their land . 8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I didn ' t - - 9 there ' s a misquote there but similar to 10 that , right . What ' s your question ? 11 DAVE KLINE : Exactly what does that 12 mean ? 13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : What that means 14 is - - do you want me to answer this ? 15 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , I can . 16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right . 17 Purchase and development rights , say for 18 some reason it was decided that a certain 19 section of land had an important reason that 20 we should preserve the open space interest 21 or the view or something like that . We 22 decided you have a - - through hearings and 23 meetings you decide that this particular 24 parcel of land is important to preserve for PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 30 1 some reason or another , so what you could do 2 then is purchase the development rights , 3 which means once you do that you pay the 4 landowner a certain amount of money for the 5 rights to develop on that piece of property . 6 Town then owns the rights . Or you could 7 also do this through State programs or land 8 trust , those types things . 9 What happens is once whoever owns the 10 development rights on that piece of land , 11 the owner is being paid for that and in 12 return he ' s saying he won ' t develop it so 13 the land will stay as is . But generally 14 speaking in this area it becomes hard to buy 15 development rights unless the value of the 16 land is fairly high . I mean , you ' re not 17 going to accept a lower amount than - - for 18 your development rights if you feel the land 19 is higher and the land price wouldn ' t 20 necessarily be higher unless there were a 21 lot of people seeking to buy the land for 22 some reason . 23 So , that ' s what it is . It ' s not - - 24 you still own the land , it ' s just that you PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 31 1 can ' t - - you have agreed to not build a 2 house or build a business or something on 3 that land to preserve it for some reason 4 that you decide . 5 GEORGE FRANTZ : One of the problems 6 with zoning is , number one , it ' s a pretty 7 clumsy way of regulating land use . Any 8 planner will tell you that . And in some 9 communities they ' ve been able to preserve , 10 protect land that the community thinks is 11 worth keeping out of development , out of the 12 market completely , okay ? And the way 13 they ' ve done is stepping in and buying the 14 right to develop the land from the 15 landowner . In agricultural areas it ' s been 16 quite successful , especially where there ' s 17 an awful lot of development pressure . 18 It does a couple of things . One , it 19 takes the farmland out of competition with 20 developers because the municipality has 21 essentially purchased the development rights 22 and the land - - the use of the land is 23 limited to agriculture , okay , so it will , of 24 course , favorably generally affects - - it PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 32 1 lowers the taxes , because again , it ' s not 2 being taxed as development land because it 3 doesn ' t have any development potential . 4 The other benefit of it is that when , 5 you know , a farmer is facing retirement it ' s 6 a lot easier for a younger farmer to step in 7 and buy it because the younger farmers are 8 not competing with the developers to buy 9 that farmland . 10 The real problem here in Tompkins 11 County , and in fact I did a study for the 12 County two years ago , and as Doug said , 13 it ' s - - our problem is the land values in 14 Tompkins County are really too low to make 15 purchase and development rights attractive 16 to a landowner , okay ? It ' s - - nobody ' s 17 going to give up their development rights 18 for $ 600 an acre , which is - - I think that ' s 19 what I recall being the average cost , and 20 it ' s why even in the , you know , in the Town 21 of Ithaca , which has had a program now for 22 four or five years , they don ' t have any 23 takers , you know , and they have the highest 24 land values in the County . Because the PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 33 1 problem is the value of agricultural land 2 is - - the value of land for agriculture is 3 here and it ' s value for development is about 4 here ( indicating ) . So , all the 5 Municipalities can really pay is about maybe 6 40 percent the total value of the land so 7 we ' re just sort of stuck unfortunately . 8 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Can I ask what 9 your - - what would you prefer - - just - - 10 this is just a question - - the zoning to be 11 for your property ? Are you arguing that it 12 should be Business like the garage around 13 it , your whole piece ? Or I ' m not quite 14 clear what you ' re - - 15 DAVE KLINE : I have 1 , 000 feet of my 16 Business that they gave me , which was 300 17 feet , now he ' s saying I got twice as much , 18 but I ' d like to see it in writing . You take 19 that 1 , 000 feet , you get four building lots 20 out of there , nice building lots , real deep 21 ones . 22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : So , you ' re 23 talking about for Residential , you ' re not 24 talking about for the Business ? PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 34 1 DAVE KLINE : I ' m retiring in 2 twenty - one days , I ' m moving away from here . 3 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Right , so " 4 you ' re arguing Residential , you want it to 5 be High Density Residential ? 6 DAVE KLINE : If you guys got these 7 limits on now it ' s 1 , 000 feet I can only 8 sell one building lot . 9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If it weren ' t in 10 the Ag District it would be less . Are you 11 requesting that it be R - - Rural 12 Residential ? 13 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That ' s what 14 I ' m asking . You want it to be a - - 15 SANDY KLINE : We ' re paying 16 Residential fees for our taxes . 17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I think that ; ; 18 would give you 250 feet . 19 SANDY KLINE : Yes , everybody around 20 us is Residential . 21 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : There ' s a big 22 huge field across the street from your 23 property . 24 DAVE KLINE : But that will never be PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 I Public Informational Meeting 35 1 sold . 2 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : You can ' t know 3 that . I ' m just saying that you have that 1 4 part and then there ' s a big field across 5 from your property , right ? 6 SANDY KLINE : Yeah , that belongs to 7 Stover ( phonetic ) . 8 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Okay . 9 DAVE KLINE : My feeling is that 10 whole 96 corridor should be opened up to 11 Residential and Commercial . Get some 12 businesses in there . Get some jobs in 13 there . 14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you ' re 15 asking for Residential ? 16 DAVE KLINE : Other than what we are 17 now . I ' d like the option to be able to put 18 another business in . 19 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That wouldn ' t 20 be Residential then , Business . 21 DAVE KLINE : You said you left room 22 for expansion on businesses , either / or . 23 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But it would 24 be a different zone . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 36 1 DAVE KLINE : This area needs 2 businesses . 3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : You have to 4 consider the two - - the Stover and your 5 place and I think - - I don ' t know how it 6 ended up . Dick , how did it end up ? 7 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : Potentially we 8 looked at it as being existing what they 9 are , PED ' s , and that ' s how we kept it . 10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We could 11 consider that . Would you want to be 12 Residential or Business ? 13 DAVE KLINE : Mix . 14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Mix . 15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I don ' t think 16 that ' s - - so , if it ' s a Business , George or 17 Doug , or I haven ' t been at this for the 18 whole two years , so if it ' s Business can you 19 put a residence there ? 20 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : No . 21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Not in the 22 Business Zone , but if it were next to it you 23 could . 24 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Okay . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 37 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , prior - - part 2 of the problem with these maps is they ' re 3 showing the whole Town so you ' re looking at 4 that and , yeah , you ' re probably seeing 300 5 feet but I ' m sure it ' s 600 plus feet . 6 DAVE KLINE : That ' s what I ' d like to 7 know . 8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : When we get the 9 map done or closer to being done it will be 10 more to scale and the lots may be on - - each 11 individual lot will be designated on there 12 as it is on some of the other maps so you 13 can actually see where you are in relation 14 to the neighbor . You can ' t tell now because 15 it ' s big blurb . 16 DAVE KLINE : Well , that picture of 17 my land right there , I got a survey map down 18 to the house I ' ll give you . 19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Do you have that 20 little map ? 21 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That has the 22 parcel - - the land parcels marked on it ? 23 DAVE KLINE : Yes , and your little 24 dot looks just like my 300 feet that ' s on my PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 Public Informational Meeting 38 1 map . 2 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : All right . 3 That ' s a good - - we ' ll look at that . 4 DAVE KLINE : Now , if it ' s 600 feet 5 that will be fine , but it looks like 300 6 feet to me . 7 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , we ' ll look at 8 it . 9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , we will 10 consider that , Mr . Kline . 11 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : My name ' s Charles 12 Schlough , S - C - H - L - O - U - G - H . Question about 13 that Hamlet District . I see that what ' s 14 proposed is to encourage a lot more dense 15 development of a variety of sorts , both 16 Commercial , Retail and Residential . And one 17 of the ways to accomplish the Residential 18 side is to increase multiple units . I know 19 that two - family units are available in most 20 of the Residential Districts and in the 21 Hamlet in order to have multiple residences , 22 which I presume means four - to six - unit 23 apartment buildings , if I read it correctly 24 it says that you can do that with site plan PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 Public Informational Meeting 39 1 approval but it has to be - - the Residential 2 units have to be on the second floor over 3 the Retail or other Commercial . Is that the 4 correct reading of it ? 5 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah . The idea is 6 that , you know , to hopefully encourage , you 7 know , the development of apartments over 8 retail stores , okay ? So that ' s within the 9 Hamlet District , that ' s where you could have 10 apartments , okay ? 11 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : But how is it 12 proposed to increase the Residential Density 13 Zone for that Hamlet if you have to bring in 14 Retail and Commercial with Residential ? I 15 mean , why can ' t you build an apartment ? 16 GEORGE FRANTZ : The way you can 17 build apartments would be if you have a 18 proposal , a site plan and the like , you can 19 then go to the Town Board and request that 20 they zone the land for the Multiple 21 Residence . 22 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Why would there 23 be a requirement of that additional step 24 instead of allowing it at the onset ? PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 Public Informational Meeting 40 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , at this point 2 the thinking is , you know , it gives better i 3 control to the Town in terms of where it 4 would like such development , okay ? Because 5 a rezoning is a legislative action , you 6 know , at the discretion of the Town Board . 7 If you were allowed this type of development 8 in the Hamlet District even by special 9 permit it ' s a lot harder for the Town , if 10 it ' s not a good idea , to turn it down . 11 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , it seemed 12 to me that with the very specifications for 13 lot sizes and density setback and all these 14 things that you could define in the Zoning 15 Ordinance at the beginning what you would 16 require if there were to be a proposal for I 17 or an intention to use the site for a 18 four - unit apartment house . There are a lot 19 of specifications for all kinds of uses but 20 you ' re - - you ' re trying to encourage 21 Residential development , one of the 22 conditions under which that would be 23 desirable or allowed . 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : If I may , PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 41 1 there ' s a way around this , because it 2 doesn ' t necessarily exclude townhouse 3 condominium lots . In other words , if you 4 add common wall apartment . 5 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : But it requires 6 that there be a Retail or Commercial - - 7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s if you 8 have an apartment . These are separate 9 maybe . 10 GEORGE FRANTZ : You can have 11 through , for instance , use of cluster 12 subdivision , okay , you can actually look at 13 the Hamlet Zoning District as saying one 14 dwelling for every 6 , 000 square feet of land 15 and if you owned a one acre of land 16 essentially that ' s seven dwelling units , i 17 okay ? You could fit seven townhouse 18 dwelling units on about - - well , actually 19 about 6 , 000 square feet of land I think , is 20 that - - 21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : ( Nods head ) 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : And the remainder of 23 the parcel could be for the driveways , 24 garages , and the like . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 42 1 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I didn ' t see any 2 language about townhouses . Is there a ! 3 definition that makes them different from an I 4 apartment building ? 5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' ve seen the 6 definitions in the Ordinance . 7 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Because I didn ' t 8 see any mention of townhouses within the 9 Hamlet . 10 GEORGE FRANTZ : And the reason you 11 didn ' t , because townhouse is a style of 12 architecture - - 13 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right . 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - not a type of 15 ownership . 16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s not 17 Multiple Residence . 18 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : It ' s not Multiple 19 Residence . Is townhouse a form of 20 ownership ? 21 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , a townhouse is a 22 type of dwelling unit , okay ? 23 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : It: ' s a design 24 feature . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 43 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , attach homes 2 generally in a row , okay ? A townhouse could 3 be six dwellings attached together on six 1 4 different lots . 5 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : So , you ' re saying 6 a townhouse would be permitted under what 7 you ' re proposing ? 8 GEORGE FRANTZ : Townhouses , yeah , 9 are permitted . 10 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I ' ll have to read 11 it . I didn ' t come across that . 12 GEORGE FRANTZ : In fact I think in 13 the definitions we may have a definition for 14 townhouse just to clarify the fact that , you 15 know , we look at it as just being a type of 16 architecture outside of , you know , who owns 17 what . 18 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , I thought a 19 townhouse was a form of Multiple Residence , 20 so I ' m confused by the terminology . 21 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Each little 22 section in a townhouse , say it ' s two story 23 or whatever - - 24 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 44 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - each little 2 section is owned by somebody , it ' s not 3 rented . 4 You move to the other side of the 5 wall , this person owns this other , so it ' s a 6 form of ownership actually . 7 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , that ' s 8 condominiums , separate ownerships . 9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Same thing , 10 except in a townhouse you own the land 11 underneath the building . It ' s kind of 12 weird . In a condominium you own the 13 building , you don ' t own the land underneath 14 it . 15 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : So , you ' re 16 looking for owner - occupied densities rather I 17 than - - 18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah , right . 19 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Charles , I didn ' t 20 help write it but I like seeing that there , 21 that mention that the Residential 22 development above the Retail is allowed , 23 because there ' s several very nice little 24 residential buildings , you know , the old - - PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 45 1 like the old store on the corner and so on 2 that might survive if they had economically 3 viable other use in them , so I think it ' s 4 good that it ' s there but it ' s not trying to 5 be directive . 6 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I think it ' s an 7 attractive idea but I don ' t see it in 8 practice very much in Tompkins County and I 9 think you ' re going to have a difficult time 10 finding buyers in that configuration . 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That may be 12 true . 13 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , I think , yeah , 14 we may have a tough time finding people who 15 , want to , you know , take , let ' s say , one of 16 the old buildings in Jacksonville and rehab 17 it with retail or office on the ground floor 18 and apartment in the second floor , but I 19 think it ' s important that the Town allow the 20 option , because in most communities they 21 don ' t allow it . 22 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Well , that ' s 23 fine . That ' s fine . In the process you ' re 24 excluding what is commonly a form of PDQ COURT REPORTERS I Public Informational Meeting 46 1 developing higher densities and Multiple 2 Residency in a Hamlet or Village , so that ' s 3 what you want . 4 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you ' re 5 saying essentially we should consider also 6 allowing three - , four - , five - apartment 7 buildings ? 8 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : With design with 9 some kind of a limit in terms of the impact 10 that you ' re willing to allow , but at least 11 allow conventional types of methods for 12 increasing Multiple Residence or higher 13 density residencies in the Hamlet . If you 14 can allow one unit per 6 , 000 feet why just 15 describe it as - - in this very , very 16 unconventional or I should say uncommon ways 17 of using that property . People that live in 18 the Hamlet it has to be important to them 19 and if you want - - 20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I see your 21 point . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I think - - let 23 me just to help maybe hopefully help clarify 24 it , but is your point that we need to maybe PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 47 1 look at something that is somewhere between 2 the owner - occupied home on 6 , 000 square feet 3 and the apartment complex ? 4 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Yes . 5 CHAIRMAN COOGAN : George , I think 6 this came about because at one point we had 7 actually divided the Hamlet into a Hamlet 8 Business District and a Hamlet Residential 9 District and it was the Hamlet Business 10 District where we said businesses on the 11 first floor , residence on the second floor , 12 giving it a more business feel , and then we 13 said no when we merged the Hamlet together , 14 and I think this is a holdover . 15 PEG COOGAN : I ' d like to say - - Peg 16 Coogan from Jacksonville . I think you had 17 come to one of the Jacksonville Community 18 Association Meetings and you were asking for 19 feedback from residents and I think one of 20 the concerns was that a big multi - unit 21 apartment building might be inappropriate 22 for the Hamlet whereas something more like 23 attached roadhouses would have more of a 24 feel for 19th Century - - 19th Century PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 48 1 community , which is what we ' re trying to 2 preserve there . And I don ' t know if there 3 are other options besides townhouses versus 4 five - story apartment buildings . I grew up , 5 it was kind of nice and I have a version to 6 them now , but I think that ' s part of where 7 that came from was the rest of us not 8 wanting huge - - 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : If you ' re interested 10 in going back and seeing if there are 11 examples elsewhere - - 12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' ll see what 13 we can find for examples . We ' d have to 14 really consider what - - I can see his point , 15 if you can ' t get a commercial - - if you 16 can ' t get somebody that wants the commercial 17 space why are you going to build a building 18 and have apartments upstairs ? 19 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : If you were 20 going to have apartments would it have to go 21 to site plan review so that you could sort 22 of assure by the Planning Board ' s review of 23 the way ; it was designed that you wouldn ' t 24 have some , you know , I don ' t know , PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 49 1 seven - story tall thing that ' s not 2 appropriate for that Hamlet ? 3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s a height 4 limit of 40 feet . 5 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But I ' m just 6 saying , would there be site plan review just 7 triggered right away , have to be anyway ? 8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yeah . 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , for the 10 proposed multi - family district . 11 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It is now ? 12 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes . 13 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : And so if 14 apartments were included in that somehow or 15 it was expanded it would still have to be 16 reviewed by the Planning Board ? 17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah . 18 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : The plan for 19 it and the layout of everything and the 20 overall size and how it fit into the 21 community , the space around it ? 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : We ' d have to , you 23 know , again , yeah , look at this concept , 24 which is again something between the single - PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 50 1 family home and the big apartment complex . 2 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Right . i 3 GEORGE FRANTZ : But I would suspect 4 that if we come up with something it would , 5 yeah , be subject to site plan approval or 6 something . 7 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : So , I was just 8 making the point for people that there ' s 9 another level of check too beyond just the 10 Zoning which is the Planning Board having 11 control over how it ' s done . 12 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Let me simplify 13 my request . That didn ' t seem to be very 14 clear . I think the language that you have 15 now could be changed and satisfy me if it 16 eliminated the 100 percent requirement that 17 there be a retail or commercial ground floor 18 under any apartment . 19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Under any 20 apartment ? 21 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Right . 22 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So , you might 23 have one - - 24 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : In other words , PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 51 1 thereby allow Multiple Residence within this 2 District subject to site plan approval given 3 the measurements , stipulations , and all 4 those statistics that you want to require , 5 heighth , density coverage of the ground , 6 allow something more conventional . I mean , 7 some nice townhouses that have , you know , a 8 Georgetown kind of look about them , two 9 floors is fine and rentable townhouses are 10 just as attractive as owner - occupied 11 townhouses . And I just think if you loosen 12 it up and accomplish more of what you ' d like 13 to see the Hamlet look like . 14 DAVE KLINE : Does Alex ever sit in 15 on any of this ? 16 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : He usually 17 does . 18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : He usually does . 19 He must be somewhere else tonight . 20 DAVE KLINE : Because we looked into 21 doing apartments over commercial and 22 Tompkins County Fire Code it just almost 23 prohibits it costwise . 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , the new PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 52 1 Codes would allow it . This one ' s a lot 2 more - - H 3 DAVE KLINE : You got to have 4 sprinkler systems . You got to have fire 5 walls . 6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Sometimes it 7 depends on the size . You would need 8 sprinklers in the commercial . 9 DAVE KLINE : If you find people to 10 invest money - - 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : The new Codes 12 are different . They took over January 1st 13 of this year . 14 DAVE KLINE : And you ' re saying 15 they ' re less restrictive ? 16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Yep . Sprinklers 17 will get you away with a lot so if you 18 happen to be in Jacksonville where you had 19 water or somewhere else you could do a lot 20 of things that you wouldn ' t have been able 21 to do before . 22 DAVE KLINE : Yeah , but that ' s - - the 23 sprinklers are expensive . 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , maybe . I PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 53 1 don ' t know . 2 JIM BROWN : My name ' s Jim Brown . 3 I ' ve got about 80 acres here in the Town of 4 Ulysses . I guess the first thing I ' d like 5 to say , I ' d like to see some of these 6 meetings better publicized . I don ' t think 7 it ' s because people aren ' t concerned . I 8 don ' t think people know about them . And 9 just because it wasn ' t advertised in the 10 paper , if you go down through Trumansburg 11 and ask people on the street what the new 12 zoning is they don ' t have a clue . 13 I mean , why not take a copy of this , 14 you spent so damn much money , and mail a 15 copy to some of the people , the taxpayers ? 16 You ' ve hired the planner , you ' ve taken - - , , 17 you want to take bus tours and you have all 18 these meetings , but nobody knows about 19 what ' s going on . I mean , can ' t you just 20 make people more aware ? I think you ' d have 21 a room full of people here if more people 22 knew . 23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I had a mistake 24 this time . I would have - - we didn ' t get it PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 54 1 in . 2 JIM BROWN : The first thing - - t 3 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : The paper didn ' t 4 publish our thing . 5 JIM BROWN : Okay . That ' s probably 6 not your fault or Marsha ' s fault . 7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s her fault . 8 JIM BROWN : Nobody really knows 9 what ' s going on . 10 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know . 11 JIM BROWN : I talked to a fellow , he 12 have several properties here in the Town of 13 Ulysses here the other day , he didn ' t have a 14 clue that this was coming about . 15 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re having 16 three more meetings . This one got away from 17 us . 18 JIM BROWN : One of the first things 19 I ' m upset about is this : I ' ve got land in 20 the Agricultural District down here and ten 21 acres in 1 , 000 feet of road frontage . Come 22 on , folks . I mean , why ten acres in an 23 Agricultural District ? I mean , that ' s my 24 retirement . I don ' t have a 401 - K , you know , PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 55 1 Tier I retirement like some of you folks 2 have . You ' re telling me that I got to 3 have - - I got to sell ten acres , I ' m not 4 going to get anybody to buy a ten - acre lot 5 there . I just hooked up water on 96 , now 6 you ' re telling me I ' ve got 480 feet of 7 frontage but it ' s not salable . Isn ' t that 8 kind of ridiculous ? I mean , my property on 9 96 would be just as good for a lawn and 10 garden business or anything . I mean , hey . 11 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Where ' s your 12 property on 96 , sir ? 13 JIM BROWN : It ' s on Route 96 just 14 beyond where Jackson Heights Apartments are . 15 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Mm - hm . 16 JIM BROWN : It ' s nice level field . 17 I mean , now you ' re telling me that 480 , it ' s 18 unsalable . 19 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well - - 20 JIM BROWN : There ' s enough room 21 there for two residential houses . You ' re 22 telling me that my property is going to be 23 worthless when I go to sell it now but you 24 keep increasing my taxes . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 56 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re not doing 2 it . 3 GEORGE FRANTZ : This is one of the 4 issues that we ' ve been going around and 5 around for for what , about four or five 6 months now . It ' s by all means not yet 7 settled . 8 JIM BROWN : It seems like that ' d be 9 a good place for a lawn and garden store . I 10 mean , I don ' t know if you ' re - - with these 11 Zoning Laws , I don ' t know how you ' re going 12 to have people come into the Town of 13 Ulysses . I don ' t even know how you ' re going 14 to have young people . I mean , Health 15 Department said one acre , you people are 16 saying two , three , ten . 17 GEORGE FRANTZ : We ' re saying 18 three - quarters . 19 JIM BROWN : You got three - quarters 20 where there ' s no water and there probably 21 won ' t be water for quite a few years . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : The red area . 23 JIM BROWN : Yeah , down in the lower 24 Perry City Road . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 57 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again - - 2 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : There won ' t be 3 for a while . 4 JIM BROWN : Won ' t for - - for a 5 while , exactly . But yet you ' re restricting 6 me from what I can sell . 7 Another quirk I got about this is 8 that I have a roadside stand . Somebody on 9 this wonderful Board here , I was going to 10 ask who it was but there ' s nobody here that 11 showed up except you , Mr . Coogan . I - - I 12 have a roadside stand which sets on the edge 13 of the road , which according to your rules 14 in here now I can ' t be on the right - of - way 15 of the road , I have to have parking behind 16 the shoulder of the road . 17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Right . Do you have 18 a permit for the DOT ? 19 JIM BROWN : Not on the Town road . 20 There ' s like two cars on this road all day 21 long except for the ones I brought . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s on a Town 23 highway ? 24 JIM BROWN : On a Town highway . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 58 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , it ' s up to the 2 Town to decide , you know . 3 JIM BROWN : It ' s really spelled out 4 in here but , you know , it ' s just like they 5 were pointing a finger at someone here . I 6 mean - - 7 GEORGE FRANTZ : Honest to God no . 8 JIM BROWN : I just - - I just can ' t 9 quite understand it , doesn ' t Ag & Markets 10 have a real problem what you folks are doing 11 here ? 12 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : With what 13 part ? 14 JIM BROWN : With this ten - acre 15 zoning . 16 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Well , they do , 17 right , Doug ? 18 JIM BROWN : Hasn ' t there been a 19 letter from Ag & Markets ? 20 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Their complaint ' s 21 in another direction . 22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : I mean , Ag & 23 Markets ' whole goal is to protect 24 agriculture totally . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 59 1 JIM BROWN : I don ' t see where you 2 folks are trying to protect agriculture one 3 bit . I really don ' t . 4 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : But you ' re 5 asking about Ag & Markets and that ' s what 6 their whole goal is . 7 JIM BROWN : I think your focus here , 8 you keep saying you want agriculture , what I 9 see here is there are certainly people here 10 that don ' t want houses in their backyard . 11 Well , that land by farmers is for sale . If 12 you don ' t want houses in your backyard buy 13 it , you know , pay the price . 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : To get back , Ag & 15 Markets , yes , has some issues with this , 16 with some of the provisions of the Zoning 17 Ordinance . They ' re issues that I ' ve been 18 looking into . I don ' t see them as being 19 serious issues . I mean , we ' ll probably have 20 to make some adjustments . Mostly just in 21 many cases using their language instead of 22 our language . 23 But as far as major problems between 24 this Zoning Ordinance and Ag & Markets , no . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 60 1 There are not major problems primarily 2 because , again , I know what 305 says , I ' ve 3 worked with the staff at Ag & Markets on 4 other projects , I ' ve always had a good 5 working relationship with them , so - - and 6 that ' s actually one of the reasons why we 7 sent them the Zoning Ordinance . 8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Change a couple 9 of different definitions and do a little 10 exemption . 11 JIM BROWN : Why couldn ' t my parcel 12 down there on 96 be Agricultural or with 200 13 foot of frontage or for , you know , like a 14 small commercial business ? I mean , if you 15 put water up 96 wouldn ' t you want businesses 1 16 on there at some point in time ? I mean - - 17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , we are - - 18 we ' re providing - - again , I ' m looking at 19 market too . What ' s the population ? What ' s 20 the projected future population and what is 21 going to be the demand for retail in the 22 Town of Ulysses ? 23 JIM BROWN : Ten - acre Agricultural 24 lots are going to bring a lot of people ? PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 61 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , I ' m talking 2 about the Business zoning , okay ? 3 JIM BROWN : Right . 4 GEORGE FRANTZ : So . . . 5 JIM BROWN : A lot of quirks in this 6 thing . 7 SUPERVISOR RUSTIC : It won ' t end up 8 in ag lots I don ' t think . 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : And I ' m sure at the 10 next - - 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s why we ' re 12 asking you . 13 GEORGE FRANTZ : At the next 14 conference maybe I ' ll take a tape recorder 15 and record the little discussion I have with 16 my buddies up in Albany because I think it ' s 17 going to be really interesting . 18 JIM BROWN : Okay . 19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Anybody else 20 want to go for it ? 21 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : I got a question . 22 I mean , this prompting me to think about 23 what do people do down the road if something 24 changes in terms of their needs and they PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 62 1 want to change the use of Agricultural to 2 Rural Residence and they ' re close to 1 3 something like that , what is - - what is the 4 opportunity and the process for a person to 5 appeal for a change in zoning for their 6 parcel ? Is that possible ? 7 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s possible . 8 It ' s probably - - it ' s not an easy thing but 9 it ' s possible . 10 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : If they use their 11 proposing as adjacent to an existing use 12 that they want it ' s easier to have this 13 creeping kind of development ? 14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Well , I think 15 what you want , everybody , Ag & Markets 16 whether you know it or not , Tompkins or Town 17 of Ulysses , we should have brought the map , 18 is probably 95 percent in a New York State 19 Tompkins County Ag District so that gives Ag 20 & Markets a little more - - a little more 21 control over what we do or supposedly than 22 if there were no Ag District . 23 This - - this is - - this is what 24 Ulysses is calling its Ag District PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 63 1 ( indicating ) . You understand that there are 2 farms down in here , there are farms all over 3 these places ( indicating ) . We took - - we 4 looked at the soil types , we looked at the 5 farming operations that were there , we 6 looked at the economic viability of where we 7 thought the best chance that the 8 agricultural operations were going to - - 9 would stay in business , so that ' s why we 10 decided that these areas were - - are a - - 11 one zone , Ag District . 12 We ' re not saying all of this land , 13 even all those trailer parks all the way 14 around here , not the Hamlet and not Hitching 15 Post and not very much of the land is not in 16 an Ag District . So , whatever we do here 17 doesn ' t mean that you can ' t do your 18 agricultural operation in any other place . 19 You still have the rights of the New York 20 State Ag District . 21 And we developed this plan , the idea 22 was to make sufficient use of the water that 23 we just put in . So , in order to do that we 24 were trying to convince Ag & Markets that we PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 64 1 were prior approving the land in these red 2 areas , they don ' t want water districts run 3 through Ag District . So , we ' re trying to 4 convince them that by creating those zones 5 and encouraging that we would - - we would 6 like them to say that ' s good to put water 7 down there and use it for Residential 8 purposes in that we saved all the rest of 9 the people trying for Agricultural purposes . 10 So , yes , we probably should address 11 Residential or something to make the best 12 use of the water , I ' m not saying how you ' re 13 going to do it , but there ' s the other 14 problem with paying for that infrastructure . 15 So , you ' re getting hit by two sides of - - of 16 the dilemma here so that ' s what we need to 17 figure out . 18 We got - - I think basically what we 19 have describes the zone and what you can do 20 in the zone if I ' m not mistaken . It ' s 21 . pretty close . What we need to do now is 22 decide where we want these zones . Are we 23 right on this or do we want them somewhere 24 else ? And maybe modification here and PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 65 1 there . So , that ' s what we ' re trying . And I 2 understand that this meeting was not 3 extremely highly publicized . It is in the 4 process now , the next one should be more 5 informational . Sorry about that . 6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It was 7 certainly our intent to have it in the 8 paper . It just got messed up . 9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We didn ' t get it 10 in the paper and it happens . But , what we 11 need to do , we ' re going to have a series of 12 three or four of these things . We just need 13 to keep people keep coming in with ideas 14 that we forgot or didn ' t think about or we 15 didn ' t know about . That ' s what we need to 16 know so that we can see what we did wrong or 17 what we did right . We might have done 18 something right , didn ' t we , probably ? 19 Something ? 20 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : Yeah , probably 21 something . So , again if you can read 22 through all the pages of it - - 23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It ' s a long 24 thing . PDQ COURT REPORTERS 1 1 Public Informational Meeting 66 1 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : - - I really do 2 have to agree with people like Dave Kline . 3 I mean , he ' s moving away . He wants 4 to sell that property , he should be able to 5 sell it off in 200 - foot parcels . There ' s no 6 reason whether it be Residential or 7 Commercial right on the main drag , I just 8 can ' t - - I don ' t understand that . 9 DAVE KLINE : Is it cost prohibitive 10 to send mailers out to everybody ? 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : To everybody in 12 the Town ? 13 DAVE KLINE : No , to landowners . 14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : How do we 15 determine what ' s a landowner ? 16 DAVE KLINE : Tax records . 17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I mean , every 18 landowner , every house ? 19 DAVE KLINE : That would give 20 everybody a chance to come . If they don ' t 21 come it ' s their own fault . 22 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It would cost a 23 couple bucks . 24 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : A PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 67 1 questionnaire or what do you want it to be ? 2 COUNCILMAN SCOTT : Pass a hat ? 3 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : But not send 4 the Ordinance to everyone ? 5 DAVE KLINE : No , no , no . 6 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : That would 7 cost a lot . 8 DAVE KLINE : Just tell them about 9 the meeting . 10 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : They ' ve been 11 working on the Ordinance for many years , 12 we ' ve had many public hearings , you know , 13 very , very few people , you know , call me , 14 you know . It ' s on , you know , it ' s on the 15 web - - has been on our website for years , a 16 couple years . It ' s different now but - - and 17 there ' s always been copies of it in the 18 office , so it ' s hard to hold on to people ' s 19 hands and get them . 20 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We can do - - 21 what we will do is make sure that there ' s a 22 list of the different providers , three or 23 four more meetings , that we ' re going to have 24 so that you can pick out which one you want PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 68 1 to come to or which ones you don ' t want to 2 come to or come to all for all I care , but 3 at least you know that there will be three 4 or four on certain dates so you can at least 5 do that . If sending out a post card or 6 something , it ' s worth considering . 7 GEORGE FRANTZ : I ' ll have to say 8 it ' s really tough to get people to these 9 meetings unless there ' s something really 10 controversial and then you pack the hall . 11 I ' m having that experience over in Dryden 12 because I ' m even less popular over there 13 with some of my ideas for the comprehensive 14 planning . We ' re having no problems getting 15 people to meetings . And I guess that ' s , you 16 know , and I ' ve been doing this stuff for 17 twenty years and we could - - we could do a 18 blanket mailing of post cards , we could do 19 any number of things and , we still don ' t - - 20 people don ' t get interested . 21 DAVE KLINE : There are a lot of 22 people who probably have a one - acre lot or 23 an - - they ' re probably never going to come . 24 Anybody who has much acreage should be PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 69 1 concerned . 2 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That might 3 probably be the other what you ' re talking 4 about , the majority of the - - 5 DAVE KLINE : Bigger landowners or 6 whatever . 7 GEORGE FRANTZ : And maybe again this 8 meeting wasn ' t as well publicized as we 9 wanted it to be and maybe the next time we 10 will pack them in . I mean , I - - I could put 11 out a press release saying Town planners 12 recommend adult use district and - - 13 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Everyone will 14 come . 15 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - we ' ll pack ' em 16 in . 17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' ll pack ' em 18 in or not . 19 DAVE KLINE : People are just more 20 busy than they were now in years past and I 21 don ' t - - I miss people that die , friends of 22 mine , week later , jeez , I didn ' t know that . 23 People just don ' t read the newspaper . They 24 got ballgames with their kids . They got - - PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 70 1 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know . I know . 2 We can get it on the radio too if that would 3 help . WACU , does anybody listen to that ? 4 KURT DUNNAM : Lite 97 , something 5 like that . Picks 106 . 6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' m really sorry 7 that this wasn ' t advertised . Probably 8 should have been better but we ' ll do it 9 again . 10 JIM BROWN : Another thing that I 11 believe that these larger road frontages , if 12 you look around , how busy peoples ' lives are 13 now , they don ' t want to take care of 700 14 feet of road frontage . I don ' t want to 15 bring that up . Your business . 16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s okay . 17 JIM BROWN : People , you ' re going to 18 end up - - if you start selling three acre 19 lots to a lot of people and they like going 20 weekends , they like to go on. vacation , 21 you ' re going to end up with little brush 22 lots behind each house and it ' s just , I 23 mean , there ' s many people who don ' t take 24 care of 700 feet of road frontage . I mean , PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 71 1 if you look around - - I can send up a lot of 2 pictures that people can ' t take care of it . j • 3 They don ' t want to . Or even 500 , the guy 4 buys an acre lot and he ' s happy . Even if it 5 was a two - acre lot with 200 feet or 6 something like that . But this extra road 7 frontage , I mean , for instance my lot down 8 there being in an Ag District with say 400 9 and some feet of frontage left , what do I do 10 with it ? I have to come to a variance 11 before I can sell it to anybody ? 12 GEORGE FRANTZ : No , it would be - - 13 it would be a legal non - conforming lot , 14 okay ? 15 JIM BROWN : But I have to sell ten 16 acres ? 17 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No , you can sell 18 the whole lot . 19 GEORGE FRANTZ : If you ' ve got ten 20 acres with 480 feet of frontage . 21 JIM BROWN : Right . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . As it ' s 23 written you could sell it as one lot , okay , 24 as an Agricultural lot . PDQ COURT REPORTERS j Public Informational Meeting 72 1 JIM BROWN : For instance , if I want 2 to split the back half of this property and 3 sell three or four acres along the road with 4 the 480 feet of frontage then I couldn ' t 5 sell it , correct ? 6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Again , it ' s tough 7 not having a map of it in front of me and 8 the exact circumstances . 9 JIM BROWN : Because I did have a 10 fellow that wanted to buy part of it for 11 more development for townhouses but he 12 skipped the country now so we won ' t see him 13 again . 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : So - - 15 JIM BROWN : But if I: wanted to sell 16 part of it to him in the back and keep the 17 road frontage for two good size house lots 18 that wouldn ' t be salable , this doesn ' t sound 19 right . 20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again , I don ' t 21 want to talk specifically about your parcel 22 without having the map in front of me . 23 JIM BROWN : You ' ll have it . 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This is what ' s PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 73 1 hard to do , it ' s hard to - - you have a 2 situation , somebody else might have a 3 situation , it ' s hard to do a Zoning 4 Ordinance on , I mean , it ' s extremely hard - - 5 JIM BROWN : Right , I agree . 6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - to please 7 everybody . 8 I mean , obviously we might have 9 something wrong here , we might not , but it ' s 10 hard to do something to create a law that 11 covers the whole Town that ' s going to make 12 everybody extremely happy . 13 JIM BROWN : But on the other hand - - 14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : So you have to 15 come to a medium somewhere , and maybe we ' re 16 too far off the medium at this point . 17 JIM BROWN : I mean , on the other 18 hand , you take some of these farmers like 19 Stan and Chuck Outhoudt ( phonetic ) and 20 people like that , and Danny that have had 21 this land for years , when they get ready to 22 retire and want to sell a lot should they 23 have to come and get a variance to sell a 24 lot off their own land they paid taxes on PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 74 1 for thirty , forty years ? I mean , it doesn ' t 2 seem right . I mean , it just doesn ' t seem 3 right . Because , you know , a panel of 4 elected officials , appointed officials , say 5 that ' s the way it ' s got to be . 6 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s the way 7 it works . We ' re trying to get it so there ' s 8 no reason - - 9 SANDY KLINE : Is anybody happy with 10 this ? 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : What ? 12 SANDY KLINE : Is anybody happy 13 with - - when you say a happy medium , we ' re 14 not happy . Is anybody actually totally 15 happy with this the way it is ? 16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I ' m not 17 saying - - no , I didn ' t mean that . 18 CHARLES SCHLOUGH : They ' re happy . 19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Were not happy . 20 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : We never said 21 we were happy . 22 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : No . 23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I was just 24 saying we need to find common ground between PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 75 1 what may be presented and what ' s going to 2 end up . I ' m not saying we ' re happy . I ' m 3 just saying maybe we ' re too large at this 4 point or maybe we ' re too small . We need to 5 reconsider what we ' re doing . Especially I 6 don ' t think the Rural Residential and Rural 7 things are too large . Basically you ' re not 8 going to be building - - you say an acre the 9 Health Department will allow but it ' s a 10 little more than an acre . 11 JIM BROWN : Right . 12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We ' re saying two 13 acres without septics . 14 JIM BROWN : Even a two - acre lot I 15 wouldn ' t be opposed to . I ' m opposed to all 16 the road frontage , it splits it up quite 17 often where a farmer couldn ' t sell - - he 18 could get a lot more lots out of his 19 property , you know . 20 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : Maybe , 21 George , you should explain to them why we - - 22 why we came up with this road frontage , what 23 was the initial reasoning for coming up with 24 this long road frontage . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 76 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : The - - again , we ' re 2 searching here - - 3 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : Let me 4 interrupt one more thing . If you could 5 explain that to them and then maybe we could 6 get some feedback of how they ' d like to see 7 us accomplish the goal we ' re trying to get 8 to . 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : The goal here with 10 the 500 feet is to keep the road frontage 11 from being cut up into two small of lots so 12 that essentially the - - the scenery 13 disappears behind houses , okay ? Is that - - 14 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : Well , I think 15 there are further issues that I ' ve at least 16 heard brought up to some extent from people 17 that have talked to me , such as just having 18 a ton of driveways going out onto roads and 19 safety issues surrounding that and other 20 things . So , it ' s not just aesthetics . That 21 is definitely a component that has been 22 voiced and is in the comprehensive plan and 23 people care about , but there are other 24 related things . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 77 1 And also just the density of people 2 that you ' re putting into the school district 3 and how that changes everything and how the 4 road maintenance has to change and the taxes 5 and everything . It ' s a whole package of 6 density related stuff . 7 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , my 8 recollection of the meeting where this was 9 decided , the primary push for it was to 10 preserve the scenic views from the road . 11 And I think people have been developing 12 these other arguments , you know , as , you 13 know , the discussions have continued for 14 what , this is three or four months now . 15 SANDY KLINE : You know , I find 16 somebody ' s house with nice flowers out in 17 front of it and looking - - their lawn 18 looking nice is just as pretty as looking at 19 a dead tree . I ' m sorry , but , you know , 20 there ' s nothing - - our road frontage is a 21 bunch of overgrown dead trees and vines and 22 weeds . You can ' t see nothing but trees 23 growing up . I mean , what kind of scenic 24 view is that ? The only good view is when we PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 78 1 mow the lawn . 2 GEORGE FRANTZ : Or when farmers farm 3 the fields . 4 SANDY KLINE : They don ' t farm the 5 fields by the road . 6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , this is one of 7 the issues that has come up and it ' s come up 8 several times tonight , okay ? 9 SANDY KLINE : I mean , your 10 definition of beauty and my definition of 11 beauty would be two different things . I 12 like looking at nice houses . I like looking 13 at peoples ' curtains on their windows . I ' m 14 sorry , but I don ' t , you know , what you like 15 and what I like are going to be two 16 different things so we ' re not going to all 17 just be able to please you just because you 18 want to look at trees . I didn ' t - - I don ' t 19 pay taxes for you to enjoy my trees . 20 JIM BROWN : On a different related 21 subject , on my property that I have down 22 there if I decided that on these new laws 23 that I can ' t operate my roadside stand on 24 the edge of the road and I wanted to move to PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 79 1 my property which is in the Ag District , I 2 see there ' s a 240 - foot - - square feet size 3 maximum size for a stand , so if I wanted to 4 put a stand on my property , display all of 5 my vegetables , I ' m limited to 240 square 6 feet ? 7 GEORGE FRANTZ : No . 8 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s one of 9 the things that might not be imposed . 10 GEORGE FRANTZ : That ' s one , yeah , Ag 11 & Markets has zeroed in on that . 12 JIM BROWN : I mean , my wagon now is 13 probably 170 and I could double that size 14 and sell twice as many vegetables . 15 GEORGE FRANTZ : This is , you know , 16 there ' s also , again , in the Al District we 17 have the category called Agricultural 18 Commerce , okay , which would actually allow a 19 much larger farm stand . 20 JIM BROWN : Whether it be a 21 permanent structure or wagon ? 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , so this is - - 23 JIM BROWN : Is that in here too ? I 24 didn ' t happen to see that . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 80 1 GEORGE FRANTZ : In the Al District , 2 Ag Commerce , yeah . 3 JIM BROWN : I didn ' t see that . 4 GEORGE FRANTZ : That would allow you 5 to have a much larger operation in the farm 6 stand and I think that ' s something that Ag & 7 Markets actually didn ' t pick up on so , but 8 that 240 square feet limitation is something 9 that they have got their hooks into and it ' s 10 something that we ' ve got to go back and look 11 at . 12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : It wouldn ' t be 13 enforcible for us to restrict that if the 14 person could actually be that big . If you 15 were selling four cucumbers and a couple 16 dozen ears of corn off your back lawn then > 17 they would not consider that to be a large 18 amount thing that we could say yeah . 19 JIM BROWN : I just happened to - - 20 that large area , I didn ' t happen to pick it 21 up . Maybe it was there . 22 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s one of 23 the things they said if it ' s actually needed 24 then we probably can disregard that , so , I PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 81 1 mean , it ' s logic . 2 Any other questions ? Comments ? 3 KURT Mc MILLEN : Kurt Mc Millen . I 4 got a comment for you . I can see what you ' re 5 trying to propose here but I can see that 6 you ' re going to have many , I call them 7 nonconforming parcels , out there that are 8 too small , like Jim ' s . He ' s not - - doesn ' t 9 have enough road frontage to conform with 10 the guidelines and there ' s going to be many 11 out there , and I hope that you left 12 provisions to deal with this , you know , and 13 loosely deal with these people and what they 14 want to do with their property - - 15 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : A 16 nonconforming - - 17 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - to make it fair 18 for everybody . 19 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : A lot that is 20 present , no matter how big it is , it has to 21 be a legal lot - - 22 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 23 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : - - surveyed off 24 and whatever to be a nonconforming lot , PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 82 1 which means that you could do - - the use in 2 the zone you ' re in you can do on that lot . 3 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 4 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : And you might 5 need a variance for front yard setbacks or 6 some things , but you can build a house on 7 the lot or something like that . 8 KURT Mc MILLEN : But I can see where 9 there ' s going to be a lot of instances like 10 Jim ' s , there ' s a lot of people out there 11 just like Jim and they may be in an Ag or 12 maybe Residential lot sizes are too small , 13 frontage is too small , they don ' t have the 14 depth , they can ' t do anything with it , so I 15 guess I would expect that you people would 16 work with them so that they can build a 17 house on them , sell them - - 18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s 19 definitely nonconforming lot . 20 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - and be fair . 21 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , I hope there ' s 22 not as much as you think , because one of 23 the - - 24 KURT Mc MILLEN : From this map PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 83 1 there ' s a lot of them . 2 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , when I was 3 doing this map I also have the tax parcels 4 underneath , because that ' s one of the issues 5 that , you know , I have to address - - 6 KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh yeah . 7 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - because it ' s not 8 in the interest of the Town to have a whole 9 lot of these nonconforming lots , okay , so - - 10 and for instance , there was a lot of debate 11 early on about the red , the R2 zoning along 12 the lake , you know , and the reason that ' s 13 there is you don ' t want to zone that Rural 14 Residential because it will put every one of 15 those lots into legal nonconformity . 16 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 17 GEORGE FRANTZ : They ' re too small . 18 And see , some of the Rural Residential 19 scattered throughout the Al Agricultural 20 District , same thing , there ' s no sense in 21 zoning them Al Agricultural , they ' ve got 22 houses on them and , you know , plus you ' re 23 putting a burden not only on the property 24 owners but on the Town , because I think the PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 84 1 Zoning Board has a lot better things to do 2 than meet weekly to deal with nonconforming 3 lots . 4 KURT Mc MILLEN : But you say you 5 have tax maps for this that would define it 6 much better , you know , you may find some of 7 the smaller parcels have slipped through the 8 cracks - - 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again - - 10 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - are 11 nonconforming . 12 When will the people be notified 13 actually what they ' re going to be in ? 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : Land - - they ' ll be 15 notified hopefully , you know , when - - once 16 we adopt the map . I don ' t know if we can 17 notify everybody , you know , what their 18 zoning is . That would be a whole lot of , 19 you know , very costly time , but certainly 20 let people know that , hey , there ' s a zoning 21 map in Town Hall , you know , come look at it . 22 KURT Mc MILLEN : I guess what I ' m 23 getting at is if they don ' t know and there 24 is a problem and they come to you later and PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 85 1 they say , well , jeez , I ' ve got a 2 three - quarter acre lot here and I ' m in an Al 3 District , what do I do with it ? Maybe call 4 Brownie up and he can put his wagon on it . 5 JIM BROWN : Small one . 6 KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah , small one . 7 What are you going to do ? This is why I 8 think people are going to be notified what 9 they ' re actually going to be into . This is 10 a good general map and an overview . 11 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , again , you ' re 12 not seeing the property lines - - 13 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - on the map but 15 when I was drawing the map I could see them , 16 you know , it ' s a click of the mouse they 17 come up . 18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Probably when we 19 do - - actually do a map it will have the 20 property lines on the big map . 21 KURT Mc MILLEN : It might be a good 22 thing to have ahead of time so that people 23 have a problem with what they ' re in - - 24 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : We actually have PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 86 1 one . 2 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - they can ask 3 questions as to why . 4 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : There ' s some 5 little ones over there . I think they have 6 parcels on them . 7 KURT Mc MILLEN : This map 8 ( indicating ) ? 9 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Is that the one ? 10 TOWN CLERK GEORGIA : No , there ' s one 11 just like that that has the parcels on it . 12 Hold up yours , Roxanne . 13 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It ' s like that 14 right there ( indicating ) . 15 COUNCILMAN WEATHERBY : It ' s not a 16 very useful scale if you ' re trying to look 17 at very small detail like you ' re talking 18 about . 19 GEORGE FRANTZ : Did I have one of 20 those up full size ? I thought I did . 21 There ' s a large one . 22 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : It ' s a - - try 23 and you can get a rough idea , but the scale 24 is hard to look at detail . PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 87 1 KURT Mc MILLEN : But still I guess 2 you ' re missing the point , the rough idea - - 3 COUNCILWOMAN MARINO : No , that ' s 4 what I ' m asking . 5 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - when you slam 6 the hammer and you make a decision on each 7 other - - 8 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : The final lines 9 have to follow the property lines . 10 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Right . Usually 12 the zoning line will follow the property 13 line . What I ' m saying is this is what 14 you ' ll end up with ( indicating ) . 15 KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh , yeah . 16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : This has all the 17 parcels on it so when you get the zoning on 18 it - - 19 JIM BROWN : Is West Shore Gas and 20 grocery in a commercial zone there ? It ' s 21 hard to see . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yes . 23 JIM BROWN : How many acres ? 24 GEORGE FRANTZ : It ' s actually the PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 88 1 last - - 2 ( Whereupon the reporter announced 3 that she was off the record because of too 4 many conversations going on at once ) 5 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : I think - - 6 GEORGE FRANTZ : Go ahead . 7 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : Thank you for 8 that comment . That ' s really an important 9 point that you ' re pointing at . There has 10 been some talk about actually having a 11 registry of nonconforming properties to help 12 with the issue that you ' re on . I don ' t know 13 what the challenge is in creating that . I 14 don ' t think it ' s an easy task but certainly 15 if it was created it would then be possible 16 to notify people . 17 KURT Mc MILLEN : Sure . I ' m not 18 saying that any of this is an easy task 19 because you ' re not going to please anyone 20 personally but you want to make it fair to 21 everybody , you know , and try to - - try to go 22 with what the lot ' s wants or needs are , 23 because the taxes have been paid and the 24 amount of land they own , what they intended PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 89 1 to do with it when they first bought it , I 2 feel for Stanley , he ' s got hundreds of acres 3 and now you say , okay , he can only sell 4 certain size lots . Maybe he planned on 5 making X number of dollars off it . Well , 6 maybe you ' ve reduced that by the factor of 7 ten , maybe ten times or , you know , you don ' t 8 know . 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Now , West Shore 10 Grocery - - 11 JIM BROWN : Yes . Just curious as to 12 how many acres were in that. commercial 13 property at that point ? 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : Okay . The - - the - - 15 again , that - - it ' s there , there ' s a small 16 zoning district that would allow - - I ' m 17 trying to find it , see if I have it here . 18 JIM BROWN : The reason I ask is 19 because there ' s been some health problems 20 there in the family and I don ' t think she ' s 21 aware of what ' s actually going on here . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : And that property 23 has a lot of issues including a good chunk 24 of it being within the Route 89 PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 90 1 right - of - way , okay , so - - but the zoning 2 there is , you know , large enough to allow 3 that business to continue and again to allow 4 for at least some expansion , redevelopment 5 of the site . 6 JIM BROWN : Was it on both sides of 7 the road , do you recall ? Because there is a 8 field on the other side of the road . 9 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , the field on 10 the other side is part of Camp Comstock or 11 Bailiwick . 12 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : No . 13 GEORGE FRANTZ : No ? 14 JIM BROWN : It ' s about four or five 15 acres there that belong to the Fletcher 16 property . 17 GEORGE FRANTZ : Anything on the east 18 side would be zoned - - then maybe I made a 19 mistake . Okay , yeah , I ' m sorry . There ' s 20 this field right between Comstock and 21 Bailiwick , okay , yeah . 22 JIM BROWN : Right . 23 GEORGE FRANTZ : That is zoned Rural 24 Residential or proposed to be zoned Rural PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 91 1 Residential . 2 JIM BROWN : Okay . Like I say , I 3 don ' t think , you know , that they ' ve had some 4 health problems in the family , I don ' t think 5 she ' s aware of what ' s going on at the 6 meetings . I thought she might like to know . 7 GEORGE FRANTZ : When I again looked 8 at what ' s out there now in terms of size 9 and , you know , how much to expand , I 10 actually had the tax parcel maps and it 11 really struck me , you know , how much of the 12 canopy is actually right in - - 13 JIM BROWN : Oh , correct . 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - the highway 15 right - of - way so . . . 16 STAN KOSKINEN : I got a question 17 that shoots this 500 frontage right in the 18 rearend . Suppose a guy owns a lot that ' s 19 400 feet wide and 800 feet deep and it ' s a 20 separate lot and it ' s not in an Ag District 21 what can he sell it for ? He can ' t sell it 22 because it ' s not the 500 feet but there ' s 23 two 200 - foot building lots on that frontage . 24 There ' s more than enough acreage in the PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 92 1 whole thing to qualify for the three acres 2 for a lot . 3 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , you know , 4 again , from what I ' ve heard this 500 feet is 5 still under discussion and right now as far 6 as arithmetic , again I don ' t want to get 7 into specific properties , specific 8 instances , because - - 9 STAN KOSKINEN : Well , you ' re going 10 to have to sooner or later . 11 GEORGE FRANTZ : Eventually , yes . 12 STAN KOSKINEN : Is there a variance ? 13 Can you apply for a variance ? 14 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , absolutely . 15 And if - - if there ' s no subdivision of that 16 lot it ' s a legal nonconforming lot . But 17 yeah , the variance process is , you know , a 18 mechanism open to all property owners . It ' s 19 supposed to be that safety valve for 20 instances like this . 21 STAN KOSKINEN : But there ' s still 22 the discretion of the Zoning Appeals Board 23 if they want you to do it or they don ' t want 24 you to do it , which still if they turned it PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 93 1 down still takes away from what he actually 2 could have sold two lots for instead of one . 3 COUNCILMAN ELLIS : It ' s definitely 4 inconvenient to people but that ' s really the 5 sort of hands down - - that ' s the hands - down 6 case , you know , that someone has a lot 7 that ' s 400 by 800 deep and because of the 8 change it ' s nonconforming and , you know , if 9 the ruling is 500 , I mean , you can hardly 10 define a cleaner hardship case . That ' s one 11 that the zoning has got to deal with . 12 STAN KOSKINEN : If you ' re left with 13 200 you ' re fine . 14 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : Any other 15 comments ? 16 KURT Mc MILLIEN : I have one more . 17 The people owning more land that they really 18 desire in brush lots and cases and so on , 19 I ' d just like to bring up that there was an 20 individual that was cited for having - - not 21 in this Township , it was the Town of 22 Enfield , he had some other problems , but in 23 addition to it they cited him for having 24 non - maintained land , and I can ' t remember PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 94 1 what the verbage actually was , but it was 2 about brush and tall grass on the property , 3 and I wondered how you ' re going to address 4 that . 5 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That he was 6 cited under the New York State Building 7 Code . 8 KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah , that was in 9 the paper . That was in writing . You read 10 it . 11 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I know . I 12 know . 13 KURT Mc MILLEN : And they mentioned 14 tall grass and brush and that , you know , 15 stuff that hasn ' t been maintained - - 16 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That ' s true . 17 KURT Mc MILLEN : - - so . . . 18 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : That wasn ' t 19 their Zoning Ordinance . 20 GEORGE FRANTZ : Yeah , there was 21 an awful lot of violations in this County . 22 KURT Mc MILLEN : I ' m just trying 23 to bring it up to you . 24 GEORGE FRANTZ : And one of the PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 95 1 things that I ' ve said many times in the 2 course of , you know , putting together 3 this new Zoning Ordinance is that , you 4 know , if it ' s - - if it ' s not economically 5 viable as farmland it ' s going to grow up to 6 brush . 7 KURT Mc MILLEN : Oh , sure . 8 GEORGE FRANTZ : And if it grows up 9 to brush there ' s no sense in it being zoned 10 Al Agriculture anymore . 11 KURT Mc MILLEN : But if you ' re 12 going to require a large lot size you ' re - - 13 are you going to require them to mow all ten 14 acres of that just to keep it aesthetically 15 pleasing ? 16 GEORGE FRANTZ : Well , there ' s 17 nothing in the zoning that would 18 require that . And as Doug said , in the 19 case you were talking about it was Building 20 Code . 21 KURT Mc MILLEN : Yeah . 22 GEORGE FRANTZ : But the , you know , 23 again , I ' ve been dealing with doing rural 24 planning for twenty years and agriculture PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 96 1 and the biggest issue is the economic 2 viability of our farms - - 3 KURT Mc MILLEN : Right . 4 GEORGE FRANTZ : - - number one . 5 Number two , just as big , is , well , as 6 you know , Stan , there ' s not a whole lot of 7 young farmers out there standing in line to 8 buy farms so - - and I ' m at least aware of 9 that . But I do think , I mean , there ' s been 10 some pretty meaty ideas come out of this 11 meeting . It was , you know , small crowd but 12 a high quality one , so . . . 13 SUPERVISOR AUSTIC : I mean , we could 14 sit around and talk about this all night 15 amongst the seven or eight of us , which is 16 what we ' ve done for years , and we don ' t - - 17 we might not see everything the way 18 everybody else sees it . We don ' t think 19 about what somebody else sees . 20 So , that ' s the idea of this whole 21 thing , so we ' ll have to take this into 22 consideration before we get down and 23 deciding what the law ' s actually going to 24 be , we ' ll have to add the comments we ' ve PDQ COURT REPORTERS Public Informational Meeting 97 1 heard here and make some changes . 2 Thank you all for coming . 3 ( Whereupon the proceedings concluded 4 at 8 : 40 PM ) 5 * * * * * 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PDQ COURT REPORTERS 98 1 STATE OF NEW YORK . 2 COUNTY OF CORTLAND : 3 4 5 I , MICHELE L . RICE , RPR , do hereby 6 certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate 7 transcription of the proceedings in the Matter of a 8 PUBLIC INFORMATIONAL MEETING , held in Trumansburg , 9 New York , on the 24th day of February , 2004 . 10 11 12 13 14 15 MICHELE L . RICE , RPR /7 Notary Public 16 PDQ Court Reporters 746 Route 41 17 Smithville Flats , NY 13841 ( 607 ) 863 - 4911 18 19 20 21 22 23 24