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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1995-06-26 - MP ‘) 7 TOWN OF ULYSSES JOINT MASTER PLAN / PLANNING BOARD MEETING JUNE 26 , 1995 TOWN HALL P RESENT : CHAIRMAN : DAVID TYLER ; MEMBERS : GERRI KEIL , BUDD S TOVER , DAN SMITH ; MASTER PLAN COMMITTEE MEMBERS : RUTH KAHN , CATHERINE STOVER ; TOWN SUPERVISOR : DOUG AUSTIC ; SECRETARY : ROXANNE SMITH . The meeting came to order at 7 : 43 PM . SCHOOL DISTRICT LINES D oug Austic has spoken with John Delaney . Mr . Delaney ' s o ffice will extend an invitation to the assistant superintendent , G ary Lindenbaum , from the Ithaca school district . They will meet w ith Krys Cail , also . This meeting will be to discuss the possibility / ramifications of changing the Trumansburg / Ithaca school d istrict ( s ) boundaries . COMMERCIAL Catherine brought in her revised outline of commercial d evelopment ( retail and industrial ) as she was not satisfied with D avid ' s efforts . After reading it , Ruth commented that malls were n ot addressed by Catherine . She responded that no , she did not ✓ efer to malls , she thinks of them as large commercial retail . D avid discussed what he had attempted to do with commercial . H e stated that he put it together after going through all the comments on the survey . The ideas he put down were an amalgamation o f things that were re - stated several times by several individuals . In the previous meeting , Krys had suggested that regarding commercial , there could be two sections . One could deal with neighborhood services , like Jacksonville . The other could be for industry . Dave commented that that relates more to our zoning ordinance and what types of districts we have . We have B2 which is a light industry zone . Right along , it has been suggested that we have an Auble B2 ; where ' s another place for another B2 ? Out of the winter dialogue with the Village , it was suggested that the S hur - Save area was another logical plane for a B2 . He stated that he thought that was both consistent with what Catherine was suggesting and what he put in his version of commercial . Catherine stated she avoided saying specifically the Duddleston property , as she feels that is the appropriate thing to do ; not to be specific . D ave inquired that if you are not specific , where else would you put a B2 ? She said she could not say at this point . She doesn ' t feel you should be specific , whether it ' s commercial , industrial o r anything else . That comes along when the zoning gets changed . That ' s true , said David . This is suppose to be a road map . The ✓ eason to be specific there , is two - fold . One is the specific discussions that were had between the Village and the Town . Two , g iven just theway the Village is laid out . If we ' re talking about h aving business growth in close proximity to the Village , where • TOWN OF ULYSSES 2 JOINT MASTER PLAN / PLANNING BOARD MEETING JUNE 26 , 1995 (2 else could that be achieved ? The new pharmacy is going to be called the Village Pharmacy , continued Dave . Catherine said , I don ' t tend to agree that that is an ideal location . Dan said that as . far as being a preamble to the Master Plan it shouldn ' t be so specific . Catherine said that she is not so sure if that is the appropriate thing to do , to specify property . Granted , she didn ' t know , but the only other area might be around Seneca county , around Bowers , in that area . She didn ' t know how much land was available there . David commented that he ' s not looking at it as available , the Auble property is " available " , but nothing is happening there . It is available without water , is the catch, said Ruth . WATER DISTRICT David asked Catherine where the north end water district stands with the Town .Board ? It is ' just being done with Shur - Save at the moment , said ' Catherine . The Auble area is in the talking stages as she understands it . Discussion ensued regarding the cost of • piping ; 6 inch versus 2 inch , that Jim Seafuse will put in . D oug came in to the discussion at this point . He stated that the cost would be about 3 dollars a foot more for an 8 inch pipe versus • .2 inch . : pipe . The distance to be covered is about 1750 feet . “ $ 5 , 000 to $ 6400 . ) The difference is in the cost of pipe , not the excavation . David commented that that ' amount seems pretty insignificant when you look at the potential you are putting there . - Has , the° Town considered making up the difference ? Doug said they h ave talked about it , they have to make that decision . It will be more than $ 5 , 000 , as the road will be torn up . It will be a referendum . Doug said ' he had contacted . Guy Crow ' s office ( Mr . Auble ' s attorney) . He is waiting for him to get back to him . • David asked iff the money was allowed for in the budget , would they still need a referendum? Doug • said no , but it wasn ' t put in the budget . Budd inquired- that if the Town does foot the extra money , could there be any agreement made with the Village so they will let the Town have water in the future ? Doug said yes , they ' ve already agreed . He feels they are more responsive then they ' ve been in the past . • The Village decided that since Jim was already there , he could go with a 2 inch pipe . From now on you have to run with w hatever size the main line happens to be . To connect Jim ' s , the • Town will . go down Falls . Road , connecting to a hydrant right near Christine Springer ' s . 'home . It isn ' t the best place for water , but e ventually it may be . It was easier for Jim to get approval from the County and• John Duddleston , than it was to get it from the fairgrounds , continued Doug . ' Dan said that if you are going to do - that , long term , it should be a large size pipe . The Town will be hooking an 8 inch into a 6 inch main , said Doug . He went on to say • that he thinks in the future , the State Park will be hooking their w ell into ' Trumansburg ' s . They only have one well and the State w ants more . ' 'This way , perhaps the state could foot some of the bill . The Members decided that they agreed with David ' s motion that the Town should spend the extra money needed to have an 8 inch pipe put in . It was passed unanimously . " Dan asked who would own the line ? Doug said the - Town and Jim . Along Rt . 96 there are all kinds of gas lines , said Doug . Under the State road it would run • TOWN OF ULYSSES 3 JOINT MASTER PLAN / PLANNING BOARD MEETING JUNE 26 , 1995 about $ 35 , 000 , They have all kinds of regulations . Doug continued to say that the Village came in to see him the other day , and they w ant the pumps put in at the other end of the Village . ( Near the fire station . ) Auble wants to put in a water and sewer district , together . Jim didn ' t do that as he doesn ' t require the large ✓ olume sewer , stated Dan . Doug said they ( Village ) are even talking about going over to Covert . Dan said they ' ll have to pay for a filtration plant eventually . Doug mentioned that the code for the stretch past the cemetery states there has to be 5 hydrants ! At this point Doug left the meeting . COMMERCIAL RE - VISITED David commented that if we have something in sight that is specific , we ought to say it . We are being disingenuous , lacking in candor if we don ; t . Ruth asked if David was referring to the preamble or the document . He said document . Budd asked , then are you going . to specifically state where you are going to have ✓ esidential , agriculture ? Dave said no . Budd asked what the hell w as the difference ? It is already zoned commercial , right ? David responded that no , it ' s not . The little strip on Rt . 96 is , but w e are talking about the larger area behind ( corn field ) Budd said if you do that , you are going to have to specifically state residential as well .. What ' s the difference , Dave ? , asked Dan . You ' re stating goals and objectives all the way through , so you are going to have to do the same for Residential , the same thing for ag . . . David responded that other places have not been looked at . This particular area has been the subject of a lot of intense discussion in the Town / Village for the last 2 - 3 years . One of the big hold ups was the Village ' s fear of what was going to happen around the periphery of its ' line . One thing that came out of the discussion this past winter was that the Village is going to be a lot more cooperative than it has been in the past . Dan said that he is not arguing that . You can generalize in the preamble . He ' d be a lot more comfortable with that rather than stating specific parcels . Dave said , we are stating in the vicinity of the Shur - Save and MaGuire Ford . Given what has taken place , I don ' t think w e are being honest if we don ' t say that . Catherine said it isn ' t that that isn ' t what is talked about , it ' s the procedure that I understood that the Master Plan had to be . Dave said , there was a discussion , you could do it very specific , or a very general type o f Master Plan . We have some specific ideas in mind , why shouldn ' t w e state them? Catherine said she didn ' t know enough about the right procedure of a Master Plan . When Gary Meyers was here , he said it could be done either way , said Dave . You should go one way o r the other , said Catherine . We aren ' t prepared to go very specifically in a lot of the areas . This is the crux . How can you be specific if you don ' t know ? , asked Dave . The issue of commercial space is different from the issue of agriculture and ✓ esidential , said Gerri . When you have commercial it doesn ' t e xclude ag and residential in that area . In residential it does e xclude commercial , so you have that progression . You have to be more specific on commercial than you do on the rest of them . The rest of them can be anywhere , commercial can ' t be . We could state q TOWN OF ULYSSES 4 JOINT MASTER PLAN / PLANNING BOARD MEETING C JUNE 26 , 1995. that it could be , but that ' s not what we are trying to do . That corn field could remain a corn field forever , even if we were to designate it a B2 , she continued . Catherine said she ' s not saying that , that it is not the right place to make the decision . Stating it in the Master Plan doesn ' t mean that it ' s going to happen , said Dave . You are not convincing me . If you ' re going to do that , you are going to have to state where else there is a possibility of putting it , and you ' re going to say where you are going to have housing developments , where you ' re going to make commercial , other commercial , said Catherine . You have to be consistent through the whole document , said Dan . Dave asked why are you so opposed to being specific on something that we ' ve discussed and there is a general consensus on ? Catherine responded that she thinks that is the proper place for it , she ' s after procedure . She doesn ' t think it is right the way we started . . . to say one way and do it another ; do one thing one way and one thing another . You are pretty general in agriculture , I don ' t even remember if we have done residential , said Dan . We haven ' t , said Dave . What are your feelings on residential , are you going to be specific on that ? , asked Dan . Dave responded that he doesn ' t have any basis to be specific . The only reason for specificity here is that we have some underpinning to go on , he continued . Dan said that he doesn ' t argue that , there is no question that the bulk of you commercial would want to be in the vicinity of the Village . As far as being a preamble , are there other places in the Master Plan where you can become more specific ? Dave said that this isn ' t a preamble , this is the guts of it . These little articles that we are working on are the Master Plan , what we foresee the Town being . Dan asked that this would be the text that would go into the commercial section ? Dave affirmed that . Dan said , then what ' s your preamble ? Dave said , I don ' t think we ' ve done a preamble . Dan responded that he thinks that ought to be worked on first ! Dave said , why don ' t you do one ? Dan said he ' s a busy person . And no one else here is , queried Dave ? At that point , Dan invited Dave to come out and spend a week with him . Dave said fine , and invited Dan to spend a month with him . Dan said , you attorneys have it tough , it ' s a terrible thing . Dave said , let ' s not get personal . Ruth stated that its not useful , and she thought we had done a preamble . The Members agreed and an attempt was made to locate it . A discussion ensued regarding the size of the Master Plan ( 25 pages or less ) . Dan stated that he was under the impression that this was the preamble . The May 22nd minutes discussed the preface to the Master Plan , said Roxanne . One selection was never made . Ruth read Catherine ' s and Krys ' s efforts . Dan said his concern is when you go public with it , if you ' ve spelled out specific properties ( and not just in commercial , but if you did it in ag too ) he doesn ' t know whether he ' d like it or dislike it . It would depend on how it was presented and in what context . You ' d be better off in generalizing . He continued that he understood that yes , we know there are particular areas in the Town , without question . . . Dave interjected with the question , isn ' t there a lack of candor if we don ' t go and put that down ? Other people may perceive it as the good old boys club has got together and decided that people ' s property is going to be valuable . I ' m just trying to be devil ' s • WW .' ULI SbLb JOINT MASTER PLAN / PLANNING BOARD MEETING '7 l JUNE 26 , 1995 advocate here . My feeling is when you start spelling out e xplicitly specific properties in the Master Plan some people may perceive it as being biased , as trying to favor that property o wner , said Dan . Dave asked does that mean you can ' t enact zoning , because zoning is the thing that is going to do that . Gerri said , we have the Aubles property that we gave a B2 to . Dan said we also tried to keep it generalized when we wrote it . It was very specific , 22 or 28 acres , said Dave . When we wrote 82 , I don ' t think there was anything about acreage size , said Dan . No , B2 is a use . I ' m saying when the Auble property was zoned that way , that was a specific designation , said Dave . We are talking about the Master Plan Dave , said Dan . I understand , and the Master Plan is not the zoning document . The zoning document is going to be produced by the Town Board , said Dave . That ' s why I ' m saying it makes sense to be a little bit more generalized in your Master Plan and then let it progressively take the aim with the zoning , said Dan . When it came to the designation of the Auble Parcel for a B2 , that is all we were considering . We also knew that this was something the Town hoped to use in other areas , but at that point in time we were focused on one thing , that was the big push . That was not a good way to go about that , but that is how we proceeded at that time . In the planning process that we have been going through ; and you have a specific idea , about residential , ag , what ever , I don ' t have any firm ideas about where things should go . The only thing I would suggest is that we are going to have to have some multi - family residential designations somewhere near the Village ( for ease of getting places ) , beyond that I don ' t think this body has enough information to get more specific than that , said Dave . My impression when we started this Master Plan was this document was suppose to be somewhat generalized and not specific , said Dan . Dave asked Dan what ' s your objection ? This doesn ' t determine what that property is going to be . Dan responded that he would like a little more time to read it closer , and that he is not the person to write something like this . What we are arguing over is the concept of the Master Plan . I feel specifics should not go into a Master Plan and you think they should , said Catherine . Well , to the extent that you are not putting in specifics that people feel are important , I think you are being dishonest , said Dave . I don ' t think I ' m dishonest , said Catherine . You ' re being dishonest if you are not presenting this in a public document . If this little group thinks OK , at some point we ought to be looking at the property around Shur -- Save and so forth as commercial , and that is what everybody here is thinking , but our public document doesn ' t say that we are going to have a B2 around somewhere , that ' s n ot being straight forward , said David . You haven ' t convinced me , said Catherine . It ' s sort of jumping the gun but if you say something more general like that it has something to do with water accessibility ( since we have a feeling that there is going to be w ater accessible at the south end of the Village as well as on the n orth end of the Village ) it kind of defines the same area without stating it specifically , said Gerri . There has been talk of water coming in from Bolton Point ( on the south end of Town ) said Catherine . There ' s a classic example of having to make a hard decision . The Town pushes the option of bringing water up from LU4JIV U1'' ULiSbk. b � � JOINT MASTER PLAN / PLANNING BOARD MEETING 1 JUNE 26 , 1995 l B olton Point , up the south end of the Town . That ' s going to have a major impact on the Village . That is one of the tough decisions w e have to make . Dan commented that the decision was already made w ay back when his father was on the Town Board . Where you say that some of the commercial of Rt . 96 was put into residential , they specifically put that in as commercial , even though they knew there w as some residential in there . Dave commented that it hasn ' t changed in 20 years , so it was clearly a misguided designation for commercial . It was a projection that didn ' t pan out , said Gerri . D an said with the changes in the Octopus , they might not have been as short sighted as you think they are , maybe they Were a little bit longer sighted than anybody thought . They also lend themselves to the strip development that I have the feeling we are trying to avoid , said Gerri . There was no reason to make it a huge commercial when it would encompass a lot of residential , said Dan . O ne of the fundamental issues that we have got to deal with is , do you want to support the Village as the center of this community , o r do you not ? , asked Dave . Dan stated that what he has read so far , there is a lot of personal opinion in Dave ' s version on commercial . That ' s correct , said Dave , it ' s the personal opinion of the people that returned the survey . You go back to the comments and you ' ll see that almost every idea I have in there came from our survey . Catherine said that there should be more people here to decide . Dave agreed and went on to say if you encourage the strip development along Rt . 96 , ( if you bring up water from the south end of Town ) . . . Catherine said they weren ' t talking about strip development , that Dave brought the issue of water coming from the south up . She went on to say that they were arguing over w hether they should designate the Duddleston property as light industry . Dave asked if he said Duddleston ? Budd said , that ' s the area you ' ve been talking about , everyone knows that ' s the D uddleston property , don ' t deny it . Fine , said Dave . It happens to be the Duddleston property , said Gerri . What difference does it make whether it is stated in the Master Plan or comes as a proposal to re - zone ? , asked Dave . OK , maybe I want commercial down o n Kraft Road , are you going to put that in there ? , asked Budd . P robably not , said Dave . Then why should you do it for John D uddleston , and not for me ? , asked Budd . It is not a question of John Duddleston . If you buy John Duddleston ' s property then you can have it . I don ' t give a damn who owns it , said Dave . I understand that , I ' m talking about how this may be perceived by the taxpayers of the Town of Ulysses , said. Dan . How ' s it going to be perceived ? , asked Dave . I ' m trying to . . . I ' m laying that out to you , said Dan . I ' m waiting to hear , said Dave . One parcel out of the whole thing is designated , said Catherine . The Town didn ' t have any problem with doing that with Auble , said Dave . It isn ' t o ne because Auble is also designated , said Gerri . Ruble came in w ith a request , it was done for future lines , said Catherine . It w as done in response to an 8 year debacle between a property owner and the Town . It was an under the gun situation , the Planning B oard was asked to come up with something that probably should have taken half of a year , said Dave . I think it was worked on for several years , said Catherine . Not in the Planning Board it w asn ' t , said Dave . It was worked on for years , it was litigated , 1. UWii OF UL .ici ;; isu JOINT MASTER PLAN / PLANNING BOARD MEETING -� CZ JUNE 26 , 1995 G /) it had a long , long history . I don ' t understand your reluctance to be up front with something that has been discussed . If this water district thing had gone through with the funding from HUD , it would have been a fete accompli , said Dave . Are you willing to let this set until we have a full board here ? I would like some input on what is legally right in a Master Plan , said Catherine . You can ask the Town attorney , but the answer is you can make it as general or specific as you want , it is up to the body , said Dave . There are some very fussy Towns that tell people what color their houses should be , it is that extreme , said Ruth . Apparently it is not a matter of legality , she continued . We are going to have a lot of discussions like this . This is the meat of the whole thing . We need to be able to discuss this frankly , and be friends , said Dave . AESTHETIC ASPECTS OF TOWN OF ULYSSES Ruth provided the Members with a copy of her revised outline o n aesthetic aspects for review . She went on to mention that Krys at one time made a comment on the billboards in the Town . ( Perry City Road ) Budd stated that he thought they were coming down by a certain year , he read it somewhere . There is some justification for having them there , it may be that the land really can ' t be u sed for anything else , said Gerri . Those in existence before the sign ordinance was enacted , are allowed to be amortized out , said Dave . Ruth stated that she tried to stay with the survey results , and where items got the high marks . Dave inquired about c ) support zoning designating appropriate land use . Ruth stated that she w ould hope that we wouldn ' t do what she has seen happen so often . You have a beautiful building that has been isolated , marooned , in the middle of the shopping area . There is no point in having a beautiful church in the middle of 4 gas stations . That happened in Dryden , said Ruth . The Master Plan should support zoning and planning , she continued . Budd inquired about the two words " open - space " . After discussion the Members decided to drop out the words " importance " and " and farmlands " , and leave " and availability of o pen space . " . Dan suggested having a glossary of terms ; " open space " , etc . in the document . That way , there would be no question w hen someone picks it up . Dave thought that it would end up being ✓ ery ponderous , giving the example of " what is charm " ? The Members discussed various architectural elements surrounding the ✓ illage . Dave ' s suggestion to Ruth was that she has objectives , n ow perhaps they could think of ways to achieve them . The H istorical Society could give out awards , perhaps , said Ruth . P ositive re - enforcement is a good idea , ' agreed David . Gerri suggested having a brochure on the local homes made available . Ruth mentioned the Downtown Business Association ' s video that is for public viewing at the Trust Company . The next meeting will be on July 10 , 1995 at 7 : 30 PM . Dave indicated he won ' t be able to make that session . The meeting adjourned at 9 : 10 PM . •