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Home My WebLink AboutTB Minutes 1988-10-17TOWN OF ITHACA TOWN BOAKD MEETING October 17, 1988 At a Special Meeting of the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca, Torpkins Coimty, New York, held at the MachdLnist Union, 638 Elitiira Road, Ithaca, New York, on the 17th day of October, 1988, there were: PRESENT: ALSO PRESENT: Noel Desch, Supervisor Henry McPeak, Councilman Shirley Raffensperger, Councilwcman Robert Bartholf, Councilman Patricia Leary, Councilwcman Thcraas Cardman, Councilman Robert Flumerfelt, Town Engineer John Ozolins, Highway Superintendent John Barney, Town Attorney Ed Hallberg, Deerrun Tom Parsons, Ithaca Fire Department Gillian Sharp, Ithaca Fire Department Dan Tier, Ithaca Fire Department Dave Cornelius, Ithaca Fire Department Dan Rhodes, Ithaca Fire Department Dave Auble, 250 Troy Road Salvatore Grippi, 423 East Seneca Street David Klein, 306 Winthrop Drive Bob Hamilton, Tonpkins Cortland County Hcmebuilders Association Orson Ledger, Brooktondale Jim Hardesty, Town of Dryden Peter J. Rider, 2 Pheasant Lane Mark J. Hamlet, 322 Siena Drive Beverly Livesay, Board of Representatives Walter J. Schwan, 231 Coy Glen Road Stephen Sacket, 110 Monroe Street Alan E. Euvrard, 27 Forest Hone Drive Ed Tubbs, Troy Road Gordon Van Nederynen, 633 Bostwick Road Bob Kenerson, 1465 Mecklenburg Road Ed Austen, Zoning Board of ^peals Representatives of the Media: John Stetlins, WrKO/Q104 Ellin Iselin, WHCU PLElXa; OF ALLEGIANCE The Sipeirvisor led the assemblage in the Pledge of Allegiance. EXECUTIVE SESSION RESOLUTION NO. 291 Motion by Supeivisor Desch; seconded by Councilman McPeak, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby moves into Executive Session to discuss land acquisition. Town Board Minutes 2 October 11, 1988 (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). RESOLOTK^ NO. 292 Motion by Councilman McPeak; seconded by Councilman Bartholf, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby moves back into Open Session. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none).. REPORT OF TOWN OFFICIALS Supervisor's Report South Hill Bond Anticipation Notes Supervisor Desch noted that the South Hill Water Notes have been renewed in the amount of $289,000 for five months at vMch time we expect to permanently finance these inprovements along with the 1987 Water and Sewer Project. We also will renew the $900,000 note due on October 22. The rate for these notes is 6.0%. Comprehensive Planning Ccnroittee Supervisor Desch stated that the Comprehensive Planning Committee met last Thursday for the first time and expects to be in the process of reviewing planning consultants proposals at a meeting on November 3. Speed Limit Requests Supervisor Desch stated that he had received a letter after the agenda went out requesting a speed limit in the Grandview Subdivision. He stated that he would like to add this to the agenda dealing with such requests. He suggested a 30 MPH limit v^ch is the lowest DOT will approve. Route 96 DEIS Report The Supervisor went on to say that he expected to get the Town's copy of the DEIS on the Route 96 Project within the next two weeks. He urged all Town Board members to plant to study it thoroughly. Town Engineer's Report Town Engineer Robert Flumerfelt stated that his report was rather short tonight mainly because most of our work activity this last month has been in getting our East Shore sewer out to bid. As far as the first two phases of the 1987 Inprovements, both of those contracts are pretty well finished except for the Campbell Avenue sewer v^ch Vacri Construction now plans to do in the spring rather than this fall. East Shore Drive sewer is out to bid and we expect to take those bids on November 4th. We have received a draft report from Pickard & Anderson Engineers on the infiltration/inflow study in the Northeast area of the Town. We do have a lot of infiltration in that area, it looks like, at this point, if you were to eliminate all the infiltration that theoretically about 800 houses could be built with an equivalent amount of sewage flow. They are recommending further study and TV inspection of the sewers and a couple of cost estunates for repair of the lines. Town Board Minutes 3 October 17, 1988 The Town Engineer went on to say that he had attended a Stonnwater Management Course for three days last week. It was very worthv^le seminar. Hi^way Superintendent's Report Highway Superintendent John Ozolins stated that most of September was spent triitming trees, a joint effort between the Parks Department and the Highway Department. He stated that the crews did not get to all the roads he had hoped to get at and, therefore, throughout the remainder of the fall and winter, as time permits, get a couple of the other roads vdiere branches and trees are actually growing into the roadway and will hinder snow removal. He went on to say the Indian Creek Road and Happy Lane were also surface treated. •Hie Highway Superintendent went on to say that the Grandview Park was being final graded now and hopefully sometime next month be able to put the top soil on and have that finished other than seeding. William Hilker asked if there was any results from investigations of Bums Road since the last meeting? The Highway Superintendent replied, the two warning signs for curves in the road, both have the recommended speed limit. Also on order are two signs to be put on the old section that warns people of the slippery surface. He went on to say that one of the other things he was looking at was the possibility, in certain areas, of putting siurface treatment down to roughen up the road, however, at this time of the year he was afraid it would create more problems than it would solve. He did not think it would cure enough and then you would have loose gravel besides it being slippery. Town Building Inspector/Zoning Officer's Report Ttown Building Inspector/Zoning Officer Andrew Frost noted that during the month of September as far as building permits issued, we issued quite a few less than last year. He stated that he had had numerous inquiries and it seems like people are waiting the results of tonight's meeting on the sprinklers before they decide what they are going to do. The value of construction is pretty much equal to last year. We have cleaned up sane long standing complaints. From a month to month basis he has complaints dating back from June or July and sometimes it takes several months to get people to comply. We have been able to keep things out of court for the time being, with letters. Town Planner's Report Town Planner Susan Beeners stated that as far as citizen inquiries, it would be good to keep statistics on phone calls because it would be a good way to see how time is spent. George Frantz and she had met with several residents of the Hanshaw Road area to discuss a possible sidewalk along Warren Road and now they were looking into v^at kind of a sidewalk assessment district might be established if it were to become a town esqjense. She went on to say that there were four or five computer training classes v^ich several will be attending to learn to use the McTrans model. We have included in the 1989 budget a Mclntosh for ourselves. George Frantz att^ded a senior housing discussion at th Cooperative Extension Service on the 6th. The 13th was the initial Comprehensive Planning Committee meeting, one interesting part of the vdiole discussion was that Tcwn Board Minutes 4 October 17, 1988 depending on the catplexity of the proposals as they are received we my stretch out the period for review so that we know we are malcing a good decision in selecting a consultant. Mditionally a Stomwater Management ordinance was drafted and forwarded to the Town Engineer for review. There are a few holes in the SidDdivision Regulations and the Zoning Ordinance in requiring stornwater management provisions. George Frantz has cottpleted updating the traffic counts on mjor Town roads and will be taking additional counts up in the hospital area in mid-Noveniber. PERSONS TO BE HEARD Willis Hilker read the following letter dated October 17, 1988 fran Mr. & Mrs. W. S. Hilker, Mr. & Mrs. J. K. Hilker, Mr. & Mrs. W. D. Hilker and Mr. & Mrs. Chris Reuning: "This is a follow 1:5) of the letter presented to the Town of Ithaca Board meeting of September 12, 1988. In the span of four weeks fran the time of our first letter there have been four accidents vdiich are known to have happened on the imirtproved section of Bums Road. This represents the same average as stated in our previous letter, one per week. One of the accidents resulted in a car stuck in the ditch. Another accident left the car in the yard of Jim and Elizabeth Hilker where their two smll children play. The third accident resulted in a head on collision in v^ch two people received injuries and broken bones. The forth and worst accident to date left a lady in critical condition. She received severe lacerations to the face and back of the head, to the extent of near decapitation, and had to be transferred to Syracuse for treatment. As stated in the previous letter "It is only a mtter of time before loss of life will occur". We feel that seme remedial action to the road surface be taken before winter as v^en it is wet a person can hardly stand without sliding. We appreciate the effort of signage but feel it is not nearly enough given the severe conditions and inability to provide the enforcement v^ch would be required to hold traffic to the 30 MPH limit vhich is presently in force." Elizabeth Hilker stated that ^e was the person v^o was always there v^en the accidents happen. It's effecting her deeply and every time she hears a watian screaming or sonething is happening out there....my one child watched fran the window the vAiole thing with the woman hurting. She stated that ^e felt this situation needed to be taken care of before next September as her son and nejdiew will be riding the bus and that she would like to go to the School Board and have them pick up her children in front of her hane v^ich now they do not do. She stated that she believed if they cannot cane to her home to pick up the children they will have to walk almost a half a mile to and from the bus, two five year olds? And until conditions get better on the road they are not going to. The people just go too fast, there is no other way to look at it. But she stated that she also believed because of the way the road is, it's just slick vdien it rains, there are going to be more and more accidents. She went on to say that the next cause for her was to go to the School Board and ask than to pick up her children in front of her house and she wanted to get this taken care of before she told than they need to pick up her children in front of her house. She stated that she did not want to see a dead person out there because she was always the first person there and she felt this has gone on long enough. Town Board Minutes 5 October 17, 1988 Si:55ervisor Desch asked the Town Highway Superintendent if he had any thoughts about saw cutting the pavement recognizing it will leave it open to heaving, etc., in the spring? Highway Superintendent Ozolins replied, if we cut sections out the way the road is down there, instead of a slick surface people are going to be bouncing all over the road. The bottcm line problem is that people speed down there. Mr. Hilker replied, most of it happens ccming up hill. Mrs. Elizabeth Hilker added, in 1986 there was a new surface put down and she and her husband have really watched this. There have been twelve accidents since last year, we have lived there four years and there never was an accident other than snow and now all of a sudden there are accidents every time it rains. What we think has happened is that over the siiramer the tar has risen and the stones have gone down. She stated that her husband has gone out there after an accident and he slides on his feet down that road. The major accidents, the people \^o get hurt are ccming up the hill and they are going too fast but not only are they going to fast but the road conditions are making it worse. She felt because of the way the surface of the road is. The new road doesn't have that slick surface. Superintendent Ozolins stated that he agreed with Mrs. Hilker but that the bottcm line is that at this time of the year to try to put scmething as far as rmghing it up the only thing that he could do except put another overlayment on it \»^ch here again with the weather the way it is there is no guarantee that it is going to stick and with the amount of traffic that this gets, if you put a surface treatment down you need a couple good days v^ere it can cure out. Otherwise the stone will get worn off and you are left with more of the oil and tar on there and build it up even more. Mrs. Hilker replied, if there is not an answer someone is going to be killed, she knew it. Someone is going to be killed. She went on to say that her children do not play out there v^en it is raining or v^en it is snowing and if they are out there playing, someone is going to be killed. Councilman Cardman asked the Highway Superintendent if there was a way to roughen it up now knowing full well that vAiatever you do you are going to have to go back there in the spring and fix it right? Highway Superintendent Ozolins replied that he would check into it again, however, there was no way that he knew of to fix it temporarily. He stated that he could put a grader on there and try to rough it up that way but after a couple of cars go by it will be just as slick if not slicker. Councilwoman Leary asked if the road couldn't be closed off for a couple of day imtil it cures? Highway Superintendent Ozolins replied that if the weather holds like it has been these past couple of days there- shouldn't be a problem. Mr. Hilker added, they are still backtopping. Town Highway Superintendent Ozolins replied that he would not want to blacktop now because he could not guarantee it. Mr. Hilker replied, all you need is to guarantee it until spring v^en you do scmething different. Tcfwn Board Minutes 6 October 17, 1988 Mrs. Elizabeth Hilker asked v^en the other part of the road would be done? Supervisor Desch replied, we have '^t in the budget to do this caning year but that is not soon enough to solve your problem. Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked that she did not hear an answer as to v^y the road could not be scored or groved. Town Highway Superintendent Ozolins replied, you can do it but he was not sure how thick the pavement was but you get the initial layer of tar off then you have just the stone that is there and after a vMle that's just going to get smooth because that pavement is not new. Then you will have just as slick of a surface. Sii^jervisor Desch renarked that the only answer was doing something with the pavement. PRESENTATION BY MEMBERS OF THE ITHACA FIRE DEPAKEMENT Firefighter Barbara Caldwell stated that she was here speaking with a group of other firefighters representing the Health and Safety Conomittee of Local 737, vdiich is the firefighters union here in the City. Ms. Caldwell went on to say that they wanted to talk to the Town Board in addition to talking to people from the City because we know that there are decisions being made now for fire safety and fire supression and all kinds of plans for things to happen in the future. We want to bring up a concern of ours v^ch we know is also a concern of yoiirs. Right now fire protection is changing in the area and it's also changing across the county but some of the basics of fire protection haven't changed and from our point of view as front line fighters of fire we wanted you to know a little bit about the situation. Fire fighting in the past has been largely a volunteer activity and people have volunteered to do the work and a lot of people have cane to think of it as being a fairly siitple job, straightforward, you just go to a fire throw water on it and leave. But fire fighting now a days is a different job, there is an awful lot more involved not just with putting out fires but with dealing with hazardous materials and dealing with hazardous materials within a house, highway accidents we work in the energency medical services. We are no longer people \dio can just do it part-time and get a small job done. It has become a much bigger job and requires more training. Ms. Caldwell went on to say the in order to put out just a house fire you need a big team of people. In the past those people were available with a combination of paid people and volunteers now a days those volunteers are not available and we have a small group of paid people \dio are trying to do the same job that was in the past done by a larger group. When you get to a fire there are a large number of jobs that need to be done and you can't cut comers on any of those jobs. You have to have a group of people \dio are getting water to the fire, a group of people searching for people v^o are trapped and if they find those people and get than out, those people are going to need to be taken care of. You need to get people \^o are going to take care of opening up the roof or opening up windows to let air into the house. You need people to run the show, you need officers on the scene. You need someone to supply the water and in the Town of Ithaca even though there are better hydrant systems creeping out slowly into the outlining hills there are still an awful lot of areas vdiere that water is not supplied easily and that takes an even larger group of people to set up an operation like that. All that has to happen with five or ten minutes of our arrival on the scene of a building fire. Right now we have an eight person minimum manning situation in the City Town Board Minutes 7 October 17, 1988 of Ithaca and that means that we can run our department with just eight people, that's all we can guarantee that will be there. There is no way that eight people can do all those jobs. Every single one of those jobs that she listed requires people to do and not a person. One of reasons that we wanted to talk to you is that we know there are sane fire stations being planned one for South Hill and one for West Hill and that's a real good thing and hopefully it will cut the response time to those areas as more housing gets built up on West Hill and South Hill we will be able to respond more quickly with an engine. But right now with the manning situation we have there is no way that one engine is going to do anything v^en we get there. One person can't do a thing at a fire. They can set up their engine and they can wait for the rest of the crew to ainrive fron downtown or from mutual aid fron Dryden or fron Enfield or fron v^ereever we are calling for help, but all of those precious minutes as they tick away possibly mean a human life and if that one person tries to go in and do sonething on their own it may mean their own life. Those lives have been taken numerous times across the country, single fire fighters have attenpted to do more than they could and have died as a result of it or have managed to loose other occupants of the buildings because of it and we don't want that to happen here. What we are asking for is, that as you work with the City and cooperate with how you are going to plan to use the obviously not enough tax dollars but as many as you feel you can afford to spend on it you taken into accoimt the fact that we are right now operating without enough people to do a safe job, not just a safe job for us but a safe job for the public vdicm we are trying to serve. We hope that you will work as cooperatively as possible with the City to help us be supplied with the number of people that we need to do our minimum job. There are federal regulations that can't force a municipality to have a certain number of fire fighters but they make reccraraendations and those recoranendations are way, way over the numbers that we are trying to run with now. There is no way that we can do a safe job with the number of people we have and need more fire fighters. We feel that this is the single most important health and safety issue that we are facing right now and we are asking you to help us with it. John Cook stated that he had been a fire fighter with the Ithaca Fire Department for nine years and that he had also been a volunteer for fifteen years with the fire department. He noted that the chart that he had made up shows three things on it. The alarms started out about one a day and this year about 3,200 to 3,300 calls, so we have really increased our business on several different senses. We are running an EMS program now to both the City and the TOwn. At the same time back in the late '60's we were getting response fron volunteers force of 2,400, 2,500, 2,300 calls and that gradually has gone down to about 500. We are trying to go to a lot more calls with a lot less people and at the same time the number of career fire fighters was at 42 until 1970 and in '71 it jumped to 44. Actually we have no more people mainly because the work week changed and we have no more man hours because of that. What we are trydLng to say is that our business has increased and if we look at any City or Town department v^o's business had increased that much and you e^qpect their manpower to increase. Our' s including our volunteer responses had definitely decreased. He went on to say that he has a chart that charts v^ere our stations are and vAieire the new stations will be. The way it is going to be we will have Central Fire Station with two engines and a ladder and three fire fighters, Station 7 with one engine and one fire fighter. Station 9 with an engine and ladder and two fire fighters, and then in the Town v^at is being proposed is a station up on West Hill that will have an engine in it and one fire fighter and on South Hill there will be one engine and a fire fighter. There is a hugh time delay in the time this person gets help. One fire Town Boarxi Minutes 8 October 17, 1988 fighter at the scene really can't do anything. Our SOP says that the first person on the scene will provide rescue duty. We are also trained that we are to use a buddy system v^en we go inside in case there is a problem. Also, we work in pairs to do search and rescue so that one person can concentrate on finding people and the other person can concentrate on keeping in touch with a wall or just keeping their bearings on floor plan of the building and keeping their bearings on viiat is going on with the fire situation itself. Basically it's safety for us and for the people trying to get out. If you have ever tried to lift a 200 pound person it really takes two people to drag scmebody out of a burning building. What we are saying here is that we have already got sparce manpower and we are going to cover the City stations, we are talking about moving stations out and we are talking about six minute delays to get our next people there. That's really too long a time to have to wait. By the letter of our SOP we are not supposed to go in unless we have a buddy but he would say out of 44, 44 guys or gals would go inside and give it their best effort. We really have to say that we don't think that's fair and we hope that v^en you are considering your budget that you will consider putting on more fire fighters. He stated that he knew the Town was already takdlng on more of a share of the fire department budget and we went to the City administrators and told them the same thing and they said the Town would have to agree if there were roster increases to put in seme of the money and we would just like to say that as far as these stations go, we would really like to have at least a minimum of two people so that we can protect each other and be safe on our job. Councilwoman Raffenspeiiger asked if the fire fighters thought that an aggressive program to promote the volunteer corp is a part of the solution to the program. Dave Cornelius, Chairman of the Board of Fire Commissions replied that first of all we are supporting the addition of paid fire fighters to the roster because of the shortage of manpower just because of the number of people that are needed at a fire there just aren't volunteers available, especially during working hours. We definitely want to support: additional paid personnel and in addition to that we have been working, he felt, quite hard to try to increase the number of volimteers. We started a week ago Sunday, had representatives on the Ccmnons for about five hours and Monday th2X>ugh Saturday for about five hours a day on the Ccmmons. We had two people actually fill out an application during those seven days and approximately eighteen took applications with them. There was sane interest in the bunking program also had we been able to say on Decanber 31st we will have two new stations open available for bunking. We had seme IC students interested in bunking. We also had one or two people on West Hill. It's going to be at least another year before that is available, if we advertised for bid by the end of December vdiich is the latest estimate he has heard. We are recruiting, we will also be at Top's Market this Friday night, Saturday and Sunday. It is still a long way to go, eighteen people took applications, if we get ten of those back he felt they would be very fortunate. That would give us twelve if we get half of those through a training cycle and he felt that was being overly optcmistic. On top of that we are having difficulty getting the gear to put on them, we can't even start training cycle because we don't have turnout gear. It takes six mcnths from the time we order turnout gear to the time it is being delivered. We have no spare turnout gear that is approved under the new OSHA standards. If something happens to turnout gear that individuals now have, again it takes six months to replace it so we are down a fire filter. We are also asking in the budget for second sets of turnout gear for everyone. There are multiple reasons for this, one that he just spoke of, if gear is damaged or Town Board Minutes 9 October 17, 1988 contaminated in a hazardous materials incident they would at least have a second set available so they could continue answering alarms. Also in both winter and summer, in the winter if your gear gets wet from the water that you are using to fight a fire and a prolonged incident you can get chilled very quickly also, it's not very pleasant if you go back home and a couple hours later again you get another call, even a couple of days later, it pretty hard to get that stuff dry and have to put on wet gear ^en it 20 to 30 degrees outside. In the sunroer time in the heat from the sweat you just get into clamrtry stuff, you really need two sets. But again, are we doing everything to recruit volunteers, we are trying. Cayuga Heights and Lansing are talking about having to go to paid personnel, the problon is all over. Dan Rhodes, Captain of Cayuga Hose Ccnpany No. 1, and Chairman of the Volunteer Company Captains. He went on to say that there was one point that you are all missing. That is that it is getting very dangerous out there for us. It is also getting dangerous for the public. Because we are not able to put enough fire filters on the scene. The lady brought the subject of can't we recruit more volunteers. Sure we can recruit more volimteers. Sure we can recruit more volunteers. The problem we have is retaining them. He stated that he went to 338 alarms last year and this year he was going to hit close to 400. We have manbers v^o go to as many as 600 alarms. Do you know vdiat that does to a person's physical well being? The wear and tear on the person is unbelievable. We have a gror^) of dedicated people but the thing is you have to remember one thing, since the last time the paid section was increased the number of alarms have increased seven times v^t it was then. Seven times the number of actual incidents vdiere we put our lives on the line have increased about the same. What we are seeing here is that the paid staff does need to be increased. Councilwcman Raffensperger ronarked that she was not being critical of the volunteer effort. She just knew they were down there trying to get volunteers and she thought i^e would give the firemen a chance to talk about how they made out. Mr. Rhodes replied, no he wasn't criticizing either it was just a fact of life. The really sad thing about it is this, that unfortunately it will probably take one of us being hurt or being killed or the public being killed because we don' t have enough manpower on the scene initially v^en we hit a fire. The first ten minutes of any fire is the most critical part of that fire. We have to get the manpower there. We have five of us in line at the Octopus v^en we had the fire on Warren Place, it took us ten minutes to get through the Octopus. It took five of us ten minutes. That ten minutes is very crucial in a fire. If someone is trapped in a fire, by the time we get there they are gone. What we are saying here, we are not trying to be hard nosed about this and we don't mind doing v^at we do but we also like to make sure that we have at least a fighting change of surviving vtiat we do. It is a very critical service that we provide but at the same time we want to be able to sxirvive to be with our families too. So that is \/diy we are supporting the paid staff's request for additional personnel. We support it because it helps us out too as volunteers, it takes a little bit of the pressure off us that we feel as volunteers. Willis Hilker stated that he liad been a volunteer for fourteen years himself and that he had not heard anything mentioned on mutual aid so far. The Deputy Chief stated that from past e3q)erience he could say that the mutual aid in this county is used very extensively. On many occasions we have serious fires and there is usually is no Itown Board Minutes 10 October 11, 1988 hesitation whatsoever to call in mutual aid. The problon we are addressing you with is not a mutual aid problem its an initial attack and response problem. What we are dealing with is the crucial time in the first ten minutes, five to ten minutes of a fire. That's \^en we are going to rescue scsnebody. If we get the occupants out of the house it can go through the roof for all he cares and we can call in mutual aid and we can stay there for eight hours and we can pimp with our pumpers and we can supply with our supply hose and we can do all the dandy things that we knew hew to do but the most inportant thing is in that first five to ten minutes. If we don't have those people, that's the crucial period. That's going to be the fine line between vdiether we get seanebody out of a house or whether we don't. And if we go in there without enough people it' s going to be the fine line between ourselves getting out of the house or not. That's the bottom line for us. Dave Reynolds stated that he was a Town resident and that he was also a fire fighter with the Ithaca Fire Department. Mr. Reynolds stated that he was here asking the Town to consider an increase in the manpower for the fire department. As the group of fire filters, that are here, we feel very much in jeopardy due to the severe drop in the volunteers and the rise in the alarms and the multitude of construction in the Town and the City. We are very much under manned, as of now only one fire fighter on the engine or truck and all the training we are taught that at least to work in pairs. This is not working. Also, where he lives in the Town, vdiich is on Longview Drive on West Hill, we have no water source in approximately a one mile area. That's more people we are going to need and mutual aid and it's more time. That means that himself, his family and all the other residents of the area are below normal for coverage. He felt that his family and himself and the neighbors would feel a lot better knowing that we could get a better response. He felt a big problem on the West Hill side is going to be the Octopus for a lot of years. Councilwcman Leary remarked, if we think the fire fighter function is inportant we should be willing to pay for it. PR3P0SED ROADS, OPEN SPACE AND OTHER PUBLIC FACILITIES FOR THE CHASE FARM SUBDIVISiaJ Town Planner Susan Beeners stated that the project has received preliminary subdivision approval. It is scheduled to come back for Phase I final subdivision approval at the Planning Board. She noted that the Board had received, previously, a copy of an air photo that shows roughly how the roads in the subdivision would relate to the Butterfield property on the north. There would be connections opposite the Butterfield intersection and also a road network developed on the back lots of Ridgecrest ccming out near the Town water tank opposite a possible access into the adjoining Jones Farm property, v^enever that is developed. Cathy Wbolf of Trov^ridge and Trov^ridge stated that King Road bounds the property on the North and Ridgecrest Road on the East. The property is approximately 68 acres and we are proposing 100 lots for the entire project and 51 lots for Phase I. The public irrprovonents include a road that runs through the site entering on King Road exiting on Ridgecrest. The entrances are intended to line up with the proposed Butterfield subdivision across the street so that you have a through four-way intersection at this location. Three cul-de-sacs come off the main collector road and other lots are clustered around the cul-de-sacs. The sanitary sewer, will be brought across King Road from the Butterfield project and extended along King Road to serve those parcels that face onto King Road. It will then be brought within the road right-of-way of the Tcfwn Board Minutes 11 October 17, 1988 collector road as well as the cul-de-sacs. The lots on the up hill side all feed into the sewer that inms along the road. Water service will also be included in the road right-of-way. They were proposing a wider than usual right-of-way because the owner is irtproving a Town trail that would be located within the right-of-way. So we are looking at a 70' wide right-of-way that includes both the road and the trail. So the trail then runs along the collector road. The trail would be deeded over to the Town at the time that the road is deeded over to the Town and would be maintained 1:^ the Town. Town Planner Beeners added, there is seme proposed public open space other than the trail. Ms. Woolf replied, yes. In addition to the trail there is piece that is a wooded section that is proposed as public open space. That is part of the public open space systam as well as the wooded triangle area at the end of the property. All of those are linked by the trail that allows you to circulate through the project to the open space. As a part of Phase I we are providing a temporary energency access. There would be a hammer head turn around. The Town would have an easement on that emergency access road. It would be removed at the time the connection to Ridgecrest Road was ccnpleted. Supervisor Desch asked vdiat the number of units in Phase I would be? Ms. Woolf replied, fifty-one. Councilwcman Raffensperger stated that in reading the Planning Board minutes about the open space, the open space dedication was listed as being approximately 4% as opposed to close to 10%. There were ccnments v^ch she asked the Town Planner to ccmment on, that this was not part of the trail system in the Town v^ch we have designed to sane extent and that really it becomes a sidewalk vMch the Town is going to maintain. Town Planner Beeners replied that the statement by one of the Town Planning Boaj^d members that it was effectually a sidewalk and not a trail. For one thing it is quite unusual to have a developer come along and volunteer to build a trail or sidewalk or vAiatever it might be within a widened road right-of-way for a fairly steep cost ccnpared to v^t an equivalent donation of open space for recreational purposes would be. In that there are several other sidewalk possibilities ccming up in different parts of the Town, George Frantz and she had been considering a sidewalk ordinance vAiere the maintenance and repair of the sidewalk would be the responsibility of a property owner if that can be done in defined districts and routes. That would be a way to reduce the maintenance on the Town. Councilwcman Raffensperger asked v^o would maintain the one in this particular case? Town Planner Beeners replied, it was her understanding that it would be maintained by the Town unless there was an ordinance adopted that would be retroactive to this development, which would make the maintenance the hcmeowers responsibility. Councilwcman Raffensperger asked if they could be made retroactive? Town Attorney Barney replied, you could create a sidewalk district of seme sort. Town Board Minutes 12 October 17, 1988 Supervisor Desch asked, v\^at is the pleasure of the developer on this question? The developer replied that it was their intent, or basic understanding, that there my be scrae wording in the approval process that stipulates that it would cane imder the sidewalk ordinance. It was our feeling from the start that it would be each individual honeowners responsibility and very likely the ordinance would be corpleted long before the corpletion of the project. Councilwonan Raffensperger asked about the pond, v^o is going to own the pond? Town Planner Beeners replied, the pond is going to be on a private lot and there will be further design review of how that would be buffered from any public spaces before any approval is given of that phase. She went on to say that as far as this might fit in with the overall Town trails/sidewalk network, this route does have possibilities of being linked i;^) with sections that have been or might be required in some of the developnents, such as Butterfield and Deerrun. The prior parks and open space designs have not gone into this type of level of detail but she thought fthere will be continuous pedestrian routes eventually through these various developments. RESOLUTION NO. 293 Motion by Councilwonan Raffensperger; seconded by Councilman Bartholf, WHEREAS: The Town of Ithaca Subdivision Regulations require the approval of roads and other public facilities proposed in a subdivision 1:^ the Town Board, The Planning Board on Septoriber 29, 1988 granted Preliminary Subdivision i^proval to the proposed "Chase Farm" subdivision, proposed to consist of 100 residential lots on 68 acres on East King Road, backlots of Ridgecrest Road, siabject to certain conditions. The Town Board on October 17, 1988 has reviewed the location of proposed roads, public open space, water and sewer mains, and a proposed tenporary access road, NOW THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board accepts and hereby does accept the locations of the proposed aforementioned public facilities, subject to the compliance by the developer with all conditions and requirements that have been or my be inposed by the Town as part of further project consideration, including the understanding that if a sidewalk ordinance is enacted in the Town of Ithaca this development will be subject to that ordinance at that time. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). COMPUTER EDUCATION SEMINAR RESOLUTION NO. 294 Motion by Councilman Cardman; seconded by Councilwcman Leary, Tdwn Board Minutes 13 October 17, 1988 PESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby authorize Carolyn Dickens to attend the Ccnputer Education Seminar in Ithaca, October 20 and 21, 1988. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). NEW YORK STATE DOCE ENFORCEMENT GERTIFICATiaJ COURSES RESOLUTION NO. 295 Motion by Councilwoman Raffensperger; seconded by Councilman Cardman, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby authorize Laura Predraore, Assistant Building Inspector, to attend the N.Y.S. Code Enforcement Certification Courses at the N.Y.S. Fire Acaden^r in Montour Falls, New York, November 28 - December 1, 1988, January 9 - 12, 1989, February 6 - 9, 1989, February 27 - March 2, 1989, and March 13 - 16, 1989. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). AUTHORIZE TOWN ATTORNEY TO REPRESENT TOWN ON LITIGATION MATTER RESOLUTION NO. 296 Motion by Supervisor Desch; seconded by Councilman Bartholf, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the TOwn of Ithaca hereby authorize the Town Attorney to represent the Town of Ithaca in the Article 78 proceeding of Herbert N. Monkemeyer and Evan N. Monkemeyer against the Town of Ithaca Planning Board. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leairy and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). SET DATE FOR PUBLIC HEARING TO CONSIDER VARIOUS AMENDMENTS TO THE ZONING ORDINANCE Town Attorney Barney remarked that this dates back to the omnibus type of ordinance that we have. It basically dealt with a number of items in terms of clarification and modification and it springs out of the fact that we are now in litigation with Mr. Monkemeyer as to vdiat constitutes height in our ordinance and by \jha.t standairds do we measure it. He went on to say that the Codes & Ordinance Ccranittee is going to be considering, on Jtonday night, a revision to the hei^t definition and also seme revisions related to configuration of lots which we would hope to have available before we actually held the public hearing on this. He stated that he would like to head off any more litigation, if we can, by possibly considering these matters and make a decision whether to change them or exclude them. He felt the Deceantiber meeting would be a good time to schedule the public hearings. Supervisor Desch proposed that the hearings be set at the November meeting at vMch time the Board would have scmething to look at. CONSIDER REVISIONS TO THE NOISE ORDINANCE Town Board Minutes 14 October 17, 1988 Supervisor Desch stated that he had received a call frcsn Professor A1 George to ^cm we sent this ordinance for review. He had some questions with respect to a conflict of terras, in one place we used DB and in another we used DBA, he suggested we stick with DB. He also suggested that in terms of equipment that it would be acceptable to utilize two rather inexpensive DB meters and have one as a cross check against the other rather than getting into a very elaborate unit. Town Attorney Barney remarked that the question had been raised as to v^ether the numbers related to the decibels are appropriate. Supervisor Desch remarked, that was a concern that was es^ressed at the last hearing that we might be increasing the level that would feel as being permissible. Supervisor Desch asked if there was any thought about v^en the Board would hold a hearing on the revised ordinance? Councilwcman Raffensperger asked if Professor George had made any comments on the decibel level? She felt that nobody had the foggiest notion how big a decibel is. Si:5)ervisor Desch replied, no he didn't. He really did not want to canment on that. Councilman Cardman asked, how loud is 55 decibels? Supervisor Desch replied, pretty loud. Andrew Frost, Town Building Inspector/Zoning Officer replied that a fire alarm might be between 55 and 65 decibels. 90 would hurt your ears. This is in a confined area, taken outside it might not be so offensive. Councilwcman Leary asked, the nature and the zoning district within vdiich the noise eminates. She asked if it wouldn't be better to say into v^ch the noise eminates? You might have a district vdiere it might be all ri^t but it's such a large noise that the next district might be residential and it's very disturbing to the people hearing it. Town Attorney Barney felt that it was sort of covered. He stated that he thought what we were getting at here is that you will accept out of an industrial zone certain types of noises even if they are adjacent to a residential zone that you would not accept out of a residential zone. Regardless of \diere it oninates from, you will have the other criteria vMch includes the proximity to sleeping facilities, the time of day, the duration. Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked, it sounds frcm vAiat the Building Inspector says that we had better decrease this permissible decible level. Stpervisor Desch replied, okay we will do seme further research on this. REQUESTS FOR SPEED LIMIT REDUCTIONS Supervisor Desch ronarked that that Board had requests for Route 96B, Bums Road, Grandview Subdivision area and Dates Drive although he thought a resolution had been adopted on Dates Drive. ROUTE 96 B Town Board Minutes 15 October 17, 1988 Town Engineer Robert Flumerfelt stated that a year ago he had written a letter to State DOT stating the reasons for lowering the speed limit. Subsequently to that they did a study and they did change the speed limit on Danby Road but only reduced it to 50 MPH and it is still, as you leave the 30 MPH zone in the City of Ithaca going up hill you reach the 40 MPH zone at the City line and then just before you reach NCR the speed limit is increased to 50 MPH and then to 55 MPH. He stated that it did not seem low enough to him in the area of Ithaca College/NCR where you now have students crossing the highway. He stated that he would recanmend the TOwn i going to the State again and asking them to take another look at it and was reccanmending that the speed limit be reduced to 40 MPH v^ere it is now 50 MPH. RESOLUTIOJ NO. 297 Motion by Supervisor Desch; seconded by Councilwoman Raffensperger, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby request New York State DOT to again study the speed limit on Route 96B from the City end of the 40 MPH limit to the Danby/Ithaca Town line with regard to a consideration of a 40 MPH limit in that area. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). BURNS ROAD Town Engineer Flumerfelt stated that inlight of the discussion earlier he felt that most of the Town's focus should be on warning signs and improvement of the surface. He stated that he honestly did not hold out too much hope that the State would go along with the reduced speed limit on Bums Road even though if you travel Bums Road at 55 MPH it would be very dangerous. You just don't ^ want to travel Bums Road at 55 MPH, the most logical speed would be 35 MPH on the older section and 40 MPH on the new section. He felt that the density of development, vMch is one of the criteria that the State uses to judge vdiether a lower speed limit is justified, he doubted that the density is there to, in their way of thinking, warrant the reduction. RESOLUTIOJ NO. 298 Motion by Supervisor Desch; seconded by Councilman Bartholf, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby request NYSDOT to study the speed limit on Biams Road from Coddington Road to Slaterville Road. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). GRANDVIEW SUBDIVISIOW Supervisor Desch stated that he would simply suggest that the Board request the State to consider an area reduction to 30 MPH on those streets. KESOLUFim NO. 299 Motion by S\:pervisor Desch; seconded by Councilwoman Raffensperger, RESOLVED, that the TOwn Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby request NYSDOT to consider and areas reduction in the speed limit to 30 MPH for the streets in the Grandview Subdivision. Town Board Minutes 16 October 17, 1988 (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). CERTIFICATES OF (COMPLIANCE There was no discussion nor action on this item. TCWN OF ITHACA WARRANTS RESOLUTION NO. 300 Motion by Councilman Bartholf; seconded by Councilman Cardman, RESOLVED, that the TOwn Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby approves the Town of Ithaca Warrants dated October 17, 1988, in the following amounts: General Fund - Town Wide $ 58,301.83 General Fund - Outside Village $ 35,784.66 Highway Fund $ 83,315.52 Water & Sewer Fund $223,292.26 Capital Project Fund $ 27,171.79 Lighting District Fund $ 440.18 (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). BOLTC^ POINT WARRANTS RESOLUTION NO. 301 Motion Supervisor Desch; seconded by Councilwcman Raffensperger, RESOLVED, that the Bolton Point Warrants dated October 17, 1988, in the Operating Account are her^y approved in the amount of $82,870.76 after review and upon the reconmendation of the Southern Cayuga Lake Interraunicipal Water Ccmmission, they are in order for payment. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). SEPTEMBER FINAfCIAL REPORT RESOLUTION NO. 302 Motion by Councilwcman Raffensperger; seconded by Supervisor Desch, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby accept the September Financial Report as presented. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leaory and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). Councilman Cardman asked how much it cost the Town per paid fireman? Chief Olmstead replied, starting salary for an individual under the present contract is $19,421 it goes in five years, imder the present contract, to $28,125. If you are to put one person on dul^ around the clock, multiply either one of those numbers to get the Town Board Minutes 17 October 17, 1988 range times five and add scmevdiere between 40 and 50% for fringes. It puts a one person coverage around the clock cost, to $140,000 to $220,000. PUBLIC HEARING TO CONSIDER AMENDING LOCAL LAW #7, 1988, EXCllDING THE REQUIPEMENT OF TEiE INSTALLATION OF SPRINKLER SYSTEMS IN NEW OSIE AND TW3 FAMILY DWEILLINGS Proof of posting and p\±>lication of a notice of a public hearing to consider amending Local Law #7, 1988, excluding the requirement of the installation of sprinkler systems in new one and two family dwellings having been presented by the Town Clerk, the Supervisor opened the public hearing. Edward Hallberg, developer, stated that it was discussed at the last Town meeting the proposed, or the in effect now law, on sprinkler systons. We came up with some ideas on it and it obviously merited seme further discussion and gave us a little time to do seme homework. We met with the Supervisor to find out v^t the facts are, he stated that he had met with the Fire Chief to find out vhat his facts were and he had cenpiled a little bit of data and would like to address it. Mr. Hallberg went on to say that it*s not that we don't want it just because we don't want it its strictly on an economic basis. Mr. Hallberg stated that it seemed to him that there were three fundamental problems that the City and Town are facing in terms of fire protection. The increased response time due to e:q>anded parameters that the fire department has to work with. We are building a lot of houses vdiere there formerly weren't any. They are getting a little further out of Town vhich is aggravated ty the traffic situation. Ithaca is facing the same lack of volunteer effort that the nation is facing. The baby boom is over, society has shifted from a coramunical society to an individualistic society. The training request to be a volunteer fireman used to be eight to ten hours, now its up well over 40 and increasing. The third is the present and future anticipated lack of funding for the necessary equipment required to fight modem fires with hazardous wastes and those kind of things. Any time anyone in EMS service touches an accident victim he is really playing with the potential for a law suit. Mr. Hallberg went on to say that in terms of the sprinkler system the only thing that we can really speak on right now is fire itself. Forget about EMS, forget about all the other duties that the fire department provides for us. In terms of sprinkler systems, fire is the only issue. Sprinkler systems are designed to put our fires they don't respond to car accidents, they don't put out brush fires, they don't address any of those. Let's take a look at vhat we are facing in terms of builders. The Torapkins/Cortland Counties Builders Association ccranissioned a study by a private group in Albany to take a look at the cost and the effectiveness of the sprinkler systems v^ere they are being used in the State and the countiry and around the nation to see how effective they are and v^t they really represent in terms of cost per square foot of installation. The report came out with studies of a couple of places in New York State vhere they are required by law. In Greenburg, New York, there was a project on Staten Island that was required to put them in and a project on Qnondaga because of a lack of an adequate water supply they were required to provide onsite sprinklers. They came up with a range of values in terms of dollars per square foot cost one was extremely low because it was a very hi^ density high rise apartment building and the other was very high because of extenuating circumstances. He stated that he took the high and low and threw those out and came up with the rest Town Board Minutes 18 October 17, 1988 of the statewide average. Basically it came down to about $2.34 a square foot and he stated that he had a copy of the study if anyone wanted to look it over. Mr. Hallberg continued, saying let's take it to the Tcwn of Ithaca and say the average square footage of the houses that are being built around here is about 2,000 square feet. Multiply that by $2.34 a square foot you are taUdjig about adding $4,680 per house and that fits in just about idiat the State averages. In terms of the construction business, we found that is strictly a hard cost number, that is vdiat you pay the plumber to install this syston. There are seme increased costs beyond the plumbing, an electrician has to wire an alarm systems, etc. In our „ business he stated that he found that residential construction we can count on every dollar of hard costs in a house you can count on approximately $1.38 of real costs to cover engineering, marketing, carrying costs, overhead, that kind of thing. We checked it out with the National Association of Homebuilders and that's pretty typical throughout the industry. New York State is a little high. What this comes down to is for a builder to install a sprinkler system at a cost of $4,680 per house and add in his extra costs you are looking at having to raise the cost of a typical new home in Ithaca by $6,458. You go out to buy that house today, and if you are a typical consumer you are going to take a 30 year mortgage at 10 1/2 percent, that's $6,458 equates to $59.07 a month or about $709 a year. A typical banks requirements for obtaining that mortgage, you take that figure and divide by .28, that would represent housing costs at 28% of your incone. That means that the average buyer needs to increase yearly income, just to mortgage that sprinkler system, by $2,532 a year. He asked the Town Planner if she knew \tet the average income for the typical household is the Town of Ithaca was? He thought it was in the high 20's. Anyway you are looking at close to 10% we are going to need to increase that households buying power in order to qualify for the cost of the sprinkler system. The cost of building a new house in — the United States since 1981 has risen lay about 37%. The National Association of Hcraebuilders figures that more than half of that cost is just the cost to cover the new and more and more strict building codes. One of the things that needs to be taken into consideration with this, in 1984 New York State passed the uniform fire protection building code calling for better materials, larger egress requirements, smoke alarms, separation requirements. As an example, the project that he is doing right now, Deerrun, he has done seme rough calculations of v^t it costs him in strictly fire related items in those buildings and he stated that he was looking at roughly $3,000 per unit. Mr. Hallbeijg went on to say that one to the things to consider for us, as new homebuilders, is of course that we are looking at sprinklers as a new house item and most of the fires in this area or anyv^ere occur in houses that are over 15 years old. Houses today are better built. Ihe effect that the sprinkler systems will have in terms of the Town of Ithaca budget and v^at economic repercussion this will really have, the Si:pe3:visor provided us with a spread sheet outlining the anticipated increase in demand for fire protection, \tot it was going to cost, \(^ere the cost was going to be spent and v^ere it was going to come from. According to that spread sheet, the Town of Ithaca in 1988 contributed to the fire protection budget in the City of Ithaca $536,000. In conversation with the Fire Chief, he stated they got down to the fact that about eight percent of his time is spent fighting fires. Which is the only thing he is addressing in terms of the sprinkler system. If you take 8% of the total Town contribution to the fire protection budget you are looking at number of $42,880. If the Town of Ithaca right now was building about 350 houses a year that would mean that the increase to the budget that could be absolutely assessed to fires and v^at would be addressed by sprinkler systems, 350 houses a year would contribute $122.51 per house. If you took Tofwn Board Minutes 19 October 17, 1988 it over the entire existing housing stock, forget about the fact of the likelihood of older houses catching fire versus new houses, you took it over approximately 5,000 houses in the area you are looking at approximately $8.58 per house with the amount of money that the Town of Ithaca contributed in 1988 that went directly to the fire budget that is spent fighting fires. In terms of one of the effects that the fire department is trying to get and everybody is trying to get, the biggest problem that development in the Town of Ithaca has brought on and we have seen it with the development of stations on West Hill and South Hill is the response time. In terms of saving the fire department any money, the fire department is not going to respond with any less equipment, with any less personnel \^ether the house is sprinklered or not sprinklered. When a call comes in with an address, the Fire Oiief says absolutely we are not going to look up on charl:, well they have a sprinkler system and we will sort of get to it after lunch. Alarms are alarms and they have to be responded to. Economically it just doesn't wash. The law calls for a very small number of people to pay a large cost. Only the people v^o wish to build a house in the Town of Ithaca are going to pay $6,500 per house. We don't think this is equitable in terms of cost in terms of the cost and benefit the homeowners would get, it puts the builders, vdio he speaks for, in a really unfair conpetitive stance with the builders in Lansing, Dryden, Trumansburg and other surrounding areas. One of the big concerns that they have and this really nags at him, the gap that has been very well publicized in the papers in the past year, the gap between the cost of existing housing stock and the cost of new housing stock is widening. New houses, because of the code and because of a lot of other things, are just costing more to build than you can get for an old house for the same square footage. That is only going to aggravate that in terms of affordability of new homes. The houses that are more likely to bum are not going to have to pay for a system that the new house builders have to. We appreciate the Town wrestling with a tough problem, there is no question about it it's being faced nationwide, fire departments, police departments are effected by development, there is no question about it, it's a problon but there is a cure for it. We can look at increase density that would address seme of the response time issues. The better use of the land within the donut or v^at is served by municipal water systons. The addition of West Hill and South Hill fire departments. The problem is, the sprinkler system is not the cure to the prdblon. We would really like to see it repealed. Councilman McPeak asked what Mr. Hallberg that the cost was today to build a brand new house in Ithaca per square foot, a 2,000 square foot type house that you spoke of? Mr. Hallberg replied, on a 2,000 square foot house you are looking at between $60 and $85 a square foot. Coxancilman McPeak replied, so you are talking about maybe $150,000. So we are talking about 4 1/2% additional to install the spririkler system. Town Attorney Barney asked Mr. Hallberg if he had checked the prices with an installer in Syracuse? Mr. Hallberg stated that he had checked around, the one system that was studied in the area was the one in Qnondaga County v^ch is the only project that he could find that was installed in Onondaga County, the price was $7.50 per square foot. The Town of Ithaca would be above average because most of the studies were spread between units that would allow for a comingling of water for dcanestic use and a sprinkler system, the Town of Ithaca, according to its specifications would not allow this. Now you have basically Town Board Minutes 20 October 17, 1988 two water mains, if you see a schenatic of this there are 15 valves in the first ten feet of pipe, Councilwonan Raffensperger remarked, that she thought Mr. Hallberg had said that in your calculations liiat eventually the cost of this would add about $709 a year to the mortgage. So the real cost to the person \^o has the mortgage would be approximately $700 a year for the term of the mortgage which she though he had said he had calculated at 30 years? Mr. Hallberg replied, this is correct. So if you spread it out over 30 years you are actually looking at $21,000. Town Building Inspector Andrew Frost stated that from seme of the discussions he had heard frcm Mr. Hallberg tonight, newspaper articles and the discussion we had last month. He stated that it was not his intent to try to convince anybody in this room, including the Board that sprinklers are necessary or not but he stated that frcm his professional perspective he woxild like to add seme of his own opinions. He stated that he did feel that he had to say that in listening to the firemen that were here earlier, v^ch some of you came in late, \^en he hears them talking about the need for more paid firefighters/volunteers he keeps on hearing the word sprinkler in his mind as being a long term solution to a problem that he felt was only going to grow. He went on to say that he would take issue with seme builders, he stated that he would take issue that the older homes are necessarily a bigger hazard than the newer home. In an older home, depending on the age, primarily one of the major causes of a fire would be an antiquated electrical system. Beyond that, your older home, the structure itself is made wood framing v^ich generally speaking is larger size than the wood framing that is in use today. In your newer homes v^en people talk about fire separations the only real separation you will really find in newer homes is based on the 1984 uniform fire prevention code is the fire separation betsi^een the garage with fdLre code sheet rock and in a two-family house a fire code sheet rock separation between the tenants in the house. He went on to say that again, newer homes conpared to older homes depends on far back you want to go to an older home, but there once \dien a home was built using a 2 x 4 the wood actually measured as 2 X 4 not 1-1/2 X 3-1/2. The heavier the wood the longer it is going to take to bum through so in fact an older building is going to stand up a lot longer. The fire at Turback's is a good exaitple, they had some really heavy duty thick wood down there that was charred in the fire but the structural integrity was maintained. In his mind a lot of the nev^r homes today with energy savings that involved with building, a lot of the windows are a lot smaller than the older homes and he had not see a lot of older homes that do not have windows that are as large if not larger than the newer homes that are being built, window that open up. A lot of the new homes and he had been into a lot of homes that for this area are espensive, i.e., $250,000 homes and you find instead of solid wood doors separating roans or on closets you will find plastic doors. Plastic is more hazardous than a wood door on a closet. In fixtures in the bathrooms you may not see metal anymore, you will find plastic. Kitchen cabinets, in your older home you will see wooden cabinets today it's laminated. Old homes you might see real wood paneling in new homes it's a laminated type paneling that will bum like paper. He stated that he would take issue that the newer homes is a safer home than the older home. Mr. Frost went on to say that Mr. Hallberg had made one conment and that he might ask him to clarify it, that about the percentage of homes that am older that are involved in fire. He asked Mr. Hallberg to repeat it. Town Board Minutes 21 October 17, 1988 Mr. Hallberg replied that he did not have the exact figures. Mr. Frost stated that his response to that would be if the Town of Ithaca, in the last two years say has built a couple of hundred hones and we have 1,000 existing of course the percentage is that you will have more fires in older hones because there are less newer hones around than older hones. Your new hone today is going to becone an older hone tonorrow. Walter Schwan, stated that he was Supervisor of the Town of Ithaca fron 1970 through 1977. Mr. Schwan went on to say that Supervisor Desch had sent him a bunch of stuff proposed sprinkler law, it not actually proposed you enacted it in July. So now folks we are fighting an up hill battle. The Town Board ran a \diizzer on you. They called a public hearing, they posted a notice just like it was supposed to be done, in the Ithaca Journal. He stated that he bet there wasn't a person in this room vho reads the legal notices in the Ithaca Journal except the Town Clerk and she has to read them to cut them out and verify that this is what she told the Journal to print, was printed the way it was supposed to be printed. He stated that he felt this was a lousy way to run a railroad. He really did. He stated that he did not understand how you could propose something like this vdiich as originally proposed effected every homeowner in v^ole Town of Ithaca. Did you know that this local law as originally proposed said that within a certain period of years all of us would have to put sprinklers into existing housing? Why didn't you send out a newsletter on this thing? Why don't you acquaint people with vAiat you are going to do? Why do you do this and then have to have two or three public hearings after the fact, but more importantly now we are down here tying to convince you to change your minds \^en you already made it and passed the dam thing. He stated that he thought this was terrible. You are not giving the people of the Town of Ithaca a chance to speak before the legislature, not after. That isn't fair. Now as far as vdiat the Supervisor sent him, let's take a look at sprinklers. After reading all of the information there is no question in his mind that if you had a sprinkler system in your house you are probably going to have a better fire department than you are ever going get no matter v^o you hire to do it for you. At the same time you probably won't have anybody die from a fire but there is one thing that the sprinkler law overlooks and that is, that is the advent of all of these smoke alarms and that is \diat about twenty years old. He stated that he had one in his house and it would wake the dead and it was so sensitive that he had to put in an built in exhaust fan over his built oven, so just how bad do we need sprinklers. He stated that he did not see it. But another thing that is wrong with this v^ole idea, if this local law stays as it is presently on the books, nobody in the Town of Ithaca is going to build a single family or a two-family house without pxjblic water. If you want to build it on a well you are going to have to put in a reservoir and a special pump just to puirp the sprinkler system. He stated that he did not think this was right either. Let's assume just for the fun of it, we have 31 square miles in our Town, he stated that he figured it out \^en he was Supervisor. He stated that he would guess that half of it has been built on. That means we have 15 square miles in the Town of Ithaca still not subdivided and developed. He felt those people had the right to sell a lot if scmebody wanted to buy a lot vdiether they have Town water and Town sewer or not, the Health Department hasn't said they can't do it but you are saying by this law that they can't or else making it so expensive that they probably can't afford to do it. Especially \dien you drill wells in our Town you don't always get a good well, you know that as well as he does. So to him you have several problems with this thing, the basic one first of all, vdiy should people vdio have land \f^ere there is no public water have to go to court and fight the Town Board to get the right to build. Town Board Minutes 22 October 17, 1988 And that is vhat is going to happen if this thing stays on the books. You still have fanners on the Bostwick Road. Suppose one of them wants to put up a tenant house, are you going to tell him he can't unless he puts in a 15,000 gallon rese2n7oir and a special puitp and a sprinkler system? That's vdiat your law says. He stated that he did not think the Board had thought this through very good and he felt it was too little and too late. His way of thinking, sprinklers aren't the prciblem and you all know it the problem is the cost of fire protection and how we are going to do it in the Town of Ithaca. We don't need sprinklers, we need a volimteer fire department. Okay, nobody volunteers any more, he stated that he has heard that so much that he is sick of it. Because there is one point, nobody has tried to find out \diat kind of a package you have got to put together to get people to be volunteer fireman. As it stacks up right now, the volunteer fireman gets into his own car, uses his own gas to get to a fire and he has a little transmitter that tells him ^ere the fire is. He doesn't go to the firehouse. He goes to the fire v^ere the fiore trucks are coming to. He has to do it at his own expense all the way. As a minimum package, the first thing that you would say to a proposed volunteer would be okay, we will pay for your gas only what we will do is pay you so much a fire. Secondly, vdiy shouldn't you give them hospitalization ccnplete from the time they start until they get home, this seems to be the least you could do. Mr. Schwan went on to say that he had another idea. You have a lot of students in this Town everybody who goes to Cornell and Ithaca College aren't rolling in bucks. We are talking about firehouses with bunkers in them, people v^o sleep there, \^o live there, single boys and single girls. He stated that he would even suggest that you put up a couple or three apartments behind the firehouse and hope that you can get a couple and get than both accredited as firepersons. But the point is, unless somebody tries to see if you can get somebody on that basis with a package of some kind of an offer you are going to keep right on saying no there aren't any more volunteers. He stated that he agreed, nobody is going to volunteer for nothing anymore, no way. He felt before the Board went off half cocked and tell the public they have got to have sprinklers in all our brand new single and two-family housing you ought to take a crack at it and see vhat you can do. The truth of the matter is there is another curve to this thing. Two years ago they signed a new fire contract with the City of Ithaca for five years. He stated that he got a few numbers today and he would read them to the Board, they are not very impressive. For the current year our fire tax rate in the Town of Ithaca outside the Village of Cayuga Heights was $3.06/1000. According to the Town budget ws budgeted $567,500 for the City and $38,796 to the Village of Cayuga Heights. $39,000 to go to the Village for the Northeast and Forest Home and $567,000 for the City to cover East Ithaca, South Hill and West Hill. We have a real built-in hold, on them right here, we can show them vdiat a volunteer fire department costs. But the interesting thing is the cost of the proposed contract for the City in the 1989 Town budget. It goes up $190,219, the estimate for the Village goes up $6,200. What does that mean in terms of dollars to you and me? Very simple. With about 200 million of taxable assessed valuation in this Town related to fire purposes, in order to raise another two hundred grand you have to raise the tax rate another buck. So you are looking at four bucks a thousand plus for 1989 and it will go \jp the next year the same way, because the contract they signed with the City says and demonstrates that we will go from 16% of the City's annual fire budget to 33 1/3% of it by the year 1991. Now what does that mean in dollars in 1991? We are going to be paying over a million bucks for fire protection. He stated that he felt we could do it oiorselves and do it with the same kind of dollars and it will be our fire department. Town Board Minutes 23 October 17, 1988 Mr. Schwan stated that he also had one more point to make. There are a lot of ramifications in this dumb thing and the trouble is that unless you have been digging into it and lived with it for eight years you don't really know. The City of Ithaca is hamstrung by a law passed in 1954 or '55 by the State legislature and signed by the Governor at the request of New York City. The law says firemen and policemen in a City have hazardous duty and should therefore be able to retire after twenty years of service. They are all worn out after twenty years, you understand. And, they will retire at half pay based on their highest paid year. Now isn't that lovely. He stated that he just read in the paper the other night that the transit workers in New York City can also retire after twenty years. "That's a great city to live in, I'll bet you." But the point is, the Town isn't hamstrung by the same law. We don't have to abide by that kind of a crazy twenty year retirement policy. Our firemen, paid or not, however you work it would be in State retirement and that is an either or situation. You have to have ten years vested in the system, if you should leave, in order to retain your rights to that much or retire at age 55. So you see, even if we had our own paid fire department we haven't got the fringe benefit expenses that the City has. To give you another exaitple, let's assume we started a paid fire department in 1970, this is 1988 and we hire somebody for twelve grand a year. How do you in 1970 estimate \tot that man is going to retire at 20 years later. In other words, two years from now. There is no way you can put a handle on it. According to my information, the City has $850,000 worth of unfunded police and fireman debt because the Controller couldn't figure how much to put aside every year to pay it off \dien it came because it's their d^t and it's their retironent. They are not a part of any pool but if we had our own fire department our people would be in the New York State Retirement systen \diich is a pool based in Albany of all the retired people vAio have ever worked for the State of New York and all of the municipal governments that are a part of it. And there are a lot of municipal governments, just for your own information there are 930 Towns in this State. There are 635 Villages, there are 62 Counties and 65 Cities. He stated that he thought he had said enough but his point to the Town Board was simply this, instead of ramming this thing down our throat, if you want an honest opinion, commercial they are already getting sprinklered, they can't afford the fire insurance if they don't put them in. Multiple housing, three units or more he would say was probably a good idea because v^en you live in an apartment house you have lost control over everybody around you, you have no control. But his own house, and this is the third one he has built and he has never had a fire yet and he bets nobody in the rocm has had one. We don't have that many house fires in the Tcwn of Ithaca. He went on to say that he would tell the Board scmething else, you were talking about how old the houses are would you believe that he look at Muriel Street, Rocco's cigarette alley up there, he looked at Muriel Street in 1953 with the idea of buying the land to build a mobile home park. Do you know how many houses there were on Muriel Street then six. So the v^ole Northeast has been built since 1953, so our houses aren't that old. The other point is that he happens to think this is a highly intelligent ccmraunity. He did not think anybody was going to lay newspapers around and create fire hazards in their own dwelling. So he really did not think you as a Town Board should play God and tell him vdiat he had to do. Hoyt Benjamin stated that he was trying to build a building in the Town of Ithaca and that he lived in the Town of Ithaca. The building that he was trying to build was a commercial building, 12,000 square feet and it is on a road where there is supposed to be water within the next two years. But he stated that he could not build the building now because he can't get a building permit because he has to put in a working fire syston consisting of a hugh Town Board Minutes 24 October 17, 1988 fire purtp for a 12,000 square foot building and a hugh reservoir. At the very least he was asking the Town Board to take a look at amending the ordinance for people v^o are going be on public water lines so that they don't have to put in the facilities now required to make a working fire syston v^en those facilities are going to be given by the water lines within the next couple of years. At the very least, he would ask the Board to amend that. James Miller stated that he was a member of the firm of True, Walsh and Miller and that they represented the Industrialized Housing Manufacturer Association. Those are twenty-eight individual corporations that make factory manufactured housing and he had had some conversations with Attorney John Barney and have written him and show him seme law, specifically the Executive Law. He stated that he had not had any response from Attorney Barney but he thought and he had pointed it out to him that the New York State legislature has already preeipted you with respect to factory manufactured housing. Specifically they say that vdien the New York State statute is satisfied that the local municipalities can't preerrpt that State law and make more stringent the requirenents with respect to one and two-family family manufactured housing. So he wanted to point this out to the Board in case Attorney Barney has not shared this with you. He felt the Board was on very shakey legal ground with respect to one and two-family (Swelling units on that. Orson Ledger stated that last spring he bought the BOCES house. He stated that he was really appauled when he read in the paper that they were cxaning out with sprinkler systems in one and two-family houses. He stated that he looked at the Town Board and the City government as being big brothers and he really felt that his big brother was looking out too much for his little brothers and sisters around the area. He stated that he did not have any idea v^t the average percentage of houses that bum, he did have a little bad luck a few months ago but we went 13 years to the next house before we had a fire. He did not think the percentage of fires in houses is really that high. Like Mr. Schwan said, the larger apartment houses you are more likely to have a fire because you have more people in the same unit. He stated that he would like to see the law rescinded and done away with maj^De even in the three and four family houses. Maybe frcxn four families up it might be a good idea but at least in the one and two-family houses he would certainly like to see it repealed and done away with. Joe Quigley remarked that you have heard a lot of (juantative type analyses of this problem. As a Town Board you are charged with representing your constituents. He stated that he had talked to Utterly hunchreds of people about this issue. The only person that he heard put forth this issue with conviction and being for it is the Town Supervisor. Hundreds of other people think that this thing is totally ridiculous. You should represent their feelings because that's vdiat you are here for. Number two, the one argument that he hears over and over again is the cost factor and how this is going to save us money. This is not going to save us money in an^xxiys foreseeable future. He stated that he would like to ask Ed Olmstead, v^o is here tonight, v^t year would he think that this would have a positive effect on our fire insurance costs? Chief Olmstead asked, to vdio's fire insurance costs? On the base rate for hcxnecwners insurance and from there on up, the effecrt on fire insurance rates are immediate if you sprinkler the property, it's a function of the contracrt you have with the ccarpany. The fact that an entire ccinrnunity is sprinklered would not have any effect on the base rates that are determined by the Insurance Service Officos for Tcwn classification. That's a funotion of the water capability of the water distribution system and the Town Board Minutes 25 October 17, 1988 capability of fire department in terms of equiptient and personnel to apply that water. The difference happens with the construction of the new fiire station, a larger portion of the Town will gain the same rate for homeowners insurance and the commercial insurance that the City now has. In any case, in any one of those jurisdictions, the reduction on the overall fire insurance rate for the Town would not be effected by the sprinkler systens and if you sprinkler the propejrty there will be an immediate reduction. So there is no year out there that get you the number that you want. Mr. Quigley replied, we can't really latch onto this thing saving us dollars. Willis Hilker stated that he wanted to ask, as the law presently stands, is it going to require existing homes to be sprinklered or not? Supeirvisor Desch replied, there is no retrofit requirement for existing homes. Rosalind Grippi, 423 East Seneca Street stated that last week ^e had attended a zoning appeals meeting and that three appeals came up two of vtoch were persons had asked to be exempted from the sprinkler system ordinance and she imagined that as this goes on there will be more and more cases like this and it will occupy a good deal of the time of the Zoning Boaird and the Town. She went on to say that more over the figure that was sited was 4 1/2% of an average cost of a home but the figures that she heard at the meeting v^ere two persons asked for exemption from that law it was almost 10% of the cost of the houses because the houses were not in the $110,000 range. In fact one of the parties brought a letter fran New York State that sited $8,000 as the possible cost for the sprinkler system. She stated that she also wanted to say that she thought that somie people will not build in Ithaca because of this and will build in the surrounding towns. Also, the issue came up that modular manufacturers may not deal with area and in fact one of the persons v^o appealed to the Zoning Board said that his modular hcmie, the manufacturer was not going to insure it if he revised the hcmie in order to include sprinklers. It was not spelled out v^at substitutes as a safety factor as far as fires that is mentioned in the sprinkler law would satis:^ as an exQtption frcm that law because that came ip also at he Zoning Board meeting. It stated that a person asking for such an appeal must state that he would substitute and everyone was more than sli^tly puzzled as to vdiat might satisfy that. The question ccrnies up about insurance, in a letter to the Ithaca Journal by Mr. Quigley vdio just spoke here, said that Robert Lama of Lama Insurance said that one could expect a 5% reduction in fire insurance costs and she happened to come across an article in a journal viiich was a trade journal and they were talking about sprinkler systems for trade shows and they said that there have been suggestions that new sprinkler accident policies may come into effect. She stated that she was wondering about that, in other words, you might be concerned not only about fire in your hcme but \tot about an accident involving the sprinkler system v^ere for exaitple the electricity goes off and the sprinkler system breaks down and you might want to have insurance against that. Also, v^en you leave your house you might not only worry about fire but if you leave during the winter season you might well worry about the freezing pipes. Mrs. Grippi went on to say that she did not understand how the need for fire protection is going to be reduced by this law because certainly the fire department has to respond to a fire in any event and certainly if people don't have sprinkler systens you have to have a fully staffed fire department to protect people \^o don't Town Board Minutes 26 October 17, 1988 have sprinkler systems as well as those vdio do have sprinkler systems. Alan Euvrard stated that he was here wearing about three hats tonight. One as a resident of the County, not of the Town but the County, one as a local builder vdio has built in Ithaca and isn't currently but probably will and thirdly as a representative of the Tonpkins/Cortland Homebuilders Association. The State Homebuilders Association, about six months ago, ccaraiissioned a study of the ^ sprinkler issue. We see it as a national movonent \diich we primarily are opposed to, definitely on the one and two-family residences and without seme sort of offsetting paybacks in multi-family we have problems with justifying the costs. We are asking you tonight to rescind your previously passed law requiring sprinklers in all new one and two-family homes. This puts an undue hardship on only new home buyers. Housing in Ithaca is already out of reach of many and the costs involved in ccnpliance with the new law makes a bad situation worse. While we cannot put a value on lives saved, we can consider alternative methods to acccaifplish the same goal. Also to be considered is viiere will we get the most value for our investment. The 1984 Fire Prevention Code and its rigid enforcement in this area, the studies show that fire safety is not a new housing issue. He stated that he really wanted to eitphasize the rigid enforcement of the Code vtoch was not done ten years ago. We had a fire prevention code and a building code but it really was not enforced with the same level that it is being enforced currently. The study shows that 97% of the facilities due to fire in 1986 were in hcmes more than ten years old. It is safe to assume that this new housing stock will remain safe even as it ages due to design and construction using safer materials and techniques including but not exclusively safer electrical systons, fire separations between house and garage, interior fire separations, adequate central heating systems precluding the use of ^ space heaters, smoke detectors, better design including secondary I egress from structures. Ten years ago we were putting in windows that we thought met code and really didn't meet code. These factors together with irrproved fire safety education have resulted in an overall reduction in residential fires deaths between 1976 and 1986. An obvious observation from this data is that the critical need for iitprovenent is not new construction but existing housing stock. Those most at risk, those living in older houses, the elderly, the poor and young families will be helped frcm mandatory sprinklers in new hcmes. Mr. Euvrard went on to say that a second factor to be recognized when considering sprinklers is the cost of installation and the irrpact of this increased cost. In a limited survey in New York State and these are specifically New York State applications, costs have been foimd to range between $3,000 and $6,000 a unit. With local housing costs already out of the reach of so many these costs will only aggravate a bad situation. The ranges that we saw were between $1.29 a square and a high of $7.50 a square foot. Not included in these costs are such things as holding tanks, water installations, low pressure areas, new 1" or larger service laterals vAiere 3/4" seirvices exist. There are a lot of locations where existing subdivisions developers have gone ahead and put under roads 3/4" services and we can't get adequate water frcm them. Scmebody is going to have to go back and dig up your new roads and put 1" services across, this doesn't make sense. Also not included in these costs are damages that could happen frcm accidential freezing of pipes during construction. He went on to say that the final point to consider is the reliability of residential sprinklers. Despite sprinklers long use in ccramercial applications there is little available data as to the reliability in residential applications. In most ccramercial situations they are maintained by professional staff v^ereas in a residential Tbwn Board Minutes 27 October 17, 1988 situation that mintenance will rely on the hcmeowner alone and that is not the most reliable guy maintaining your sprinkler system. The system can be rendered inoperable through a variety of either deliberate or accidential acts. The sprinkler heads can be spray painted over, they can be removed for cosmetic reasons and the entire system can be shut off or the water pressure can be insufficient to operate the system. Any of these would render the system useless. While sprinklers inpact fire safety they have minimal beneficial impact to new houses, most fires occur in the older housing stock, ' new hcmes are safer both by design and construction, the cost would aggravate a housing affordability which is already in a severe market. Reliability over the long run in residential applications is unknown. He urged the Board to reconsider their action tonight and release new low density residential construction from the restriction of mandatory sprinklers. Supervisor Desch remarked that he would like to wind down the public comment unless there is a hugh outcry that we should continue and adjourn it. There being no other coninents the Supeirvisor closed the piJDlic hearing. Councilwcman Raffensperger stated that she had a question for the Town Attorney on the change and v^at it really means. We say we are deleting one and two family dwellings and then Section 3, subdivision 51 say "any other building except one and twc family dv^llings". Are we using the definition that is in our Zoning Ordinance which says a one family dwelling is a detached building containing a single unit? Tbwn Attorney Barney replied that he did not believe dwellings are defined in the ordinance, at the moment. They are defined in the Zoning Ordinance but not in the Sprinkler Ordinance. Councilwcman Raffensperger asked how then do we know exactly to vhat this pertains if we do not know vhat the definition is? Building Inspector/Zoning Officer Frost remarked, probably use building code definitions, occupancy. Councilwcman Raffensperger ronarked for example, in some material that the Supervisor has sent out he raised the question of Deerrun, Black Oak Lane, Butterfield and Rose Hill. She stated that her understanding of those is that they are not detached one and two family houses and, therefore, would be still included under this ordinance. She asked if this was correct? Town Attorney Barney replied that he vrould have to have to defer to the Building Inspector on this because it is really a building code amendment. Mr. Frost replied, for exanple hcmes like up in Deerrun vdiich are three or four units under one roof, there is party wall construction vdiich is not just vhat one might call a fire separation but an assembly of a wall that if there was a fire on one side of the wall the other side of the wall stands i:p so that it provides as the ultimate of a fire protection that you might get in terms of just the wall construction that separates tenants. So if a building is being classified as a single family residence, such as the Deerrun types of buildings, they have party walls separating those tenants and the building code calls them a single family residence rather than a multiple dwelling. Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked, but our Zoning Ordinance does not. Town Board Minutes 28 October 17, 1988 Town Attorney Barney replied, that's correct. Supervisor Desch remarked, are you saying that if this change were made that attached single and two family units would not be required to be sprinklered? Mr. Frost replied, that's the way he saw it. Supervisor Desch remarked, the code does not distinguish, by definition, vtot constitutes a single or two family dwelling v^ether it's attached or detached. Mr. Frost replied, another example might be, you can have a guy who is going to build six unit under one roof. He is going to own and rent that building to six different tenants. The code says that he can put in a party wall between those units and then the rest of the code that regulates the construction is the code for one and two family dwellings, not multiple dwellings. Coiincilwcman Raffensperger ronarked, that's not exactly the same. It certainly was not the intent, \f^en we discussed this last time, of having multiple residents, for exanple as Mr. Frost described, not be included in the requirements to be sprinklered vdiether or not they have fire walls between then. It is really a matter of definition, isn't it? Town Attorney Barney replied, we could add a definition. Either incorporate the Zoning Ordinance definition for a single family, multiple family, two family. Supervisor Desch remarked, if you choose to sprinkler only attached single or two family xanits, if that was your pleasure, then that by definition could be put into law. Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked, as we discussed it last time it seoned to her that the intent of the Board was to say that a one family dwelling is a detached building. A two family dwelling is a detached building containing two dwelling units and a multiple family is a building or group of buildings containing three or more dwelling units. She stated that she believed that that was v^at the Board intended to be discussed tonight. Councilman Bartholf ronarked, doesn't the fire wall make each place separate? Town Attorney Barney remarked that he did not remember any strong discussion one way or the other. The issue was do we want to put on the table the removal of one and two family single dwellings. Councilwanan Raffensperger replied, but we did discuss how inportant we felt it was to have multiple dwellings sprinklered. Town Attorney Barney replied, and that can be corrected. Mr. Frost remarked, the building code is allowing the party wall to separate the tenant spaces and regulate the entire building as a single family residence. The party wall is adding a fire safety feature that is far and above just a plan fire separation between tenants vdiich you would find in a building that was built as a multiple ciwelling. The other things is that if a guy does build a building and party wall in there you cannot penetrate a party wall in any shape, way or fashion vtotsoever. So a sprinkler installation, six units, five party walls separating, so you have six individual imits. A sprinkler installation would have to come to each specific unit or perhaps ccme in from underground because Town Board Minutes 29 October 17, 1988 you can't go through the party wall with it. It would end up being separate sprinklers systems for each unit under the one roof. Councilman McPeak remarked that he was concerned with \diat Mr. Miller was saying about manufactured hones. Supervisor Desch replied, that he would rather have attorney's deal with attorney' s but we are well aware of the section in the Executive Law, Section 379, vdiich he stated quite correctly. However, our response from Housing and Urban Development is that procedurally the ordinance is in effect until the Fire Prevention Code Council meets to evaluate it. Our position in forwarding our information to that agency stressed very substantially our concern for housekeeping and not the concern about the code and this is the thread through the vdiole argument that if you go back to the Residential Club fire you are dealing with a fire resistant building but the furnishings, the carpeting and furniture is \diat caused the loss of life. If you go back to the 90% statistics which the Fire Chief made reference to, yes perhaps they were primarily in older homes but v^t was the cause of the fire. Was the cause a deficiency in the structure and primarily those cases or in fact a great number a matter of the furnishings in those facilities. That is the question that has to be asked before you discoimt the fact isn't older versus newer. Mobile homes are another issue. Mobile homes are governed by the Federal Government. And again there is the perception, at least in the federal regulations that mobile homes may not be treated in a more stringent way, from the building code standpoint, than regular stick bxiilt houses. However, he felt the Board was all well aware of the fact that a mobile home in terms of the confined volume of air that you have to deal with, that you are dealing with a much greater risk. The flash over point as we saw in the movie with a single family home was four minutes. In a mobile home it's probably less than two minutes. Simply because you have that volume of air that doesn't allow the people to escape even if you have an equivalent number of exits vdiich normally you do not have in the case of a mobile home. As far as the question of permitting the construction of dwellings beyond public water, the irony of that is that even with the addition of fire stations and additional people it's the more remote areas that need the sprinklers the most. And that is vdiy villages around the county that do not have municipal water are the ones that are putting in mandatory sprinkler requirements. There is a village in Illinois, a village of 2,000 people, that does not have a municipal water supply that has mandated sprinklers in single and two family hcmes and that is the reason because there isn't any possibility of getting the kind of response as a substitute or even the low volume of water that is available frcan many of the wells, as Mr. Schwan point out, in the Town of Ithaca. You clearly would have to size the storage capacity. He stated that he knew in his own case, he is in a remote comer of the Town a long way from a water main and that he owned a house that is 140 years old, of all the houses in the Town of Ithaca that should be sprinklered and he though he would probably do it because of this educational process. Sure it may well effect v^ere the growth takes place in the Town of Ithaca but probably it should effect it. Mr. Schwan ronarked, that's easy for you to say you already have your house but what about somebody who wants to buy one and can't find one within their price range because the price has been jacked up to cover the sprinklers? Councilwoman Raffensperger stated that one of her basic concerns with this, quite beyond seme of the things we have heard and she knew all have had telephone calls about it, is that she did not understand the justification of doing this on the basis that we Town Board Minutes 30 October 17, 1988 going to save money on fire protection costs because it seems to her that we cannot afford to have a two tier system, house is not sprinklered because its old and a new one is, it seemed to her that the fire department will have to continue to be designed for the worse case house in the Town and that it would be a very long time before the housing stock would so improved by sprinklering as to allow us to cut those costs. Supervisor Desch replied that he thought that you had to ask yourself the c[uestion, and this goes back to the fact that he did not have any problem with being accused of railroading something through, there were two hearing on this subject so there was plenty of time for discussion. However, you thought there were two aspects to it. One is time and two is future options. You have to ask yourself how do you preserve for those \^o would sit on this body in future years and future decades the option of providing the level of fire seind-ce, the nature of the fire service that it determines that it ne^s. The thing that he was most concerned about is the fact that we could have the best paid fire department in New York State or in the country. We could have the best volunteer department and he did not care v^ch one you picked. The problem is you are not going to get the level of response on a sustained basis, no matter vdiat you do to attract volxmteers, no matter vtot you do to prx>vide fire stations, that the people of this Town will come to e35)ect. Majte not today, maybe not tcmorrow, they are pretty complacent and we all know they are pretty ccraplacent and that' s part of the problem but you are dealing with a society that even with the incentives are not going to be willing to ccramit the time to go through the training on a sustained basis, whether they are student or non-student raising a family, not raising a family, that's going to be required to give you the response time system that we for decades have been accustomed to. That is the problen. That is were the gap is. If we don't do it now it's going to be that much more difficult to do it later and he stated that he would guarantee that you will do it later. If it isn't today it's next year or five year from now, whatever. Councilwoman Leary remarked, the answer to the volunteer problen is that you have to face up to paying fire fic^ters in the future. She did not think that putting the cost of that directly on homeowners and residents is the answer. Supervisor Desch responded, then you are going to make living in the Town of Ithaca much less affordable with fire taxes than you otherwise would. That's the result because the cost is going to be much higher. Councilwoman Leary replied that she thought that the requiring of sprinklers was going to make it much less affordable. Supervisor Desch replied, the amortization costs that you heard are much lower than the differential that you are speaking of. $700 a year is much lower than long term rate of growth in your fire tax costs, in order to keep the level of service that we have all been accustaned to. Councilman Cardman replied, that is under the assumption that we don't do something about that level of arrangement for fire service in the Town of Ithaca. If as Mr. Schwan points out vflien we signed the fire contract with the City of Ithaca somebody wasn't looking that is our fault that we are going to have to pay attention to the next time if we are sharing those costs. But we are hearing a very significant portion of the people that ws represent tell us that they believe that we made a mistake on insisting that this option of having sprinklers or not be taken away from then and he stated Town Board Minutes 31 October 17, 1988 that he could not see at this point putting that cost on the cost of a home in the Town of Ithaca if it's $700 a year if it's $21,000 over the life of a 30 year mortgage, maybe that $6,000, $8,000 or $10,000 makes a difference of vdiether or not someone can afford a home iitmediately. Supervisor Desch replied, but the option that you are really taking away is the option of deciding vAiat protection you are going to have. It's not the option of i^ether you pay for the sprinkler system, you are going to pay for fire protection. Councilman Cardman replied that he knew that and he did not disagree with that but he did not agree with the fact that we are taking away an option. He felt it may be forcing the Board to be more creative with the fire protection/fire fighter options that are now available. Maybe we do build those ^)artment buildings near the fire station and rent them out or something. Councilwcman Leary renarked, also the point was made that only 8% of the cost of the fire department budget goes to fighting fires? Supervisor Desch replied that he did not buy that. We can argue about that for a long time. Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked, it is certainly true that we are not going to be able abolish fire departments if we sprinkler every building in the Town. Sxjpervisor Desch replied, nobody is suggesting that. Mr. Schwan hasn't suggested that he has given you an option and he stated that he had given the Board numbers that will show you what the differential is. You have got to look at the true cost of your responsibility of providing that service. You are going to have to do it day in and day out, even if you were to leave this ordinance alone you would still have to do that. You are quite right but in his judgement you can't afford to leave the ccraraunity unprotected at any point in time. Councilman Cardman remarked, but there is no supposition, there is not evidence, that even if we leave this ordinance intact with the cost of fire protection will not rise at a rate that you are suggesting if we rescind it. Supervisor Desch replied that long term it will because you will have the options of deciding how you are going to approach that service. Short term it will not. Councilman Cardman stated that he did not see vdiere the sprinklers give us much of an option with providing fire protection by seme kind of fire response mechanism. S\:pervisor Desch replied, it gives you the option of how you address dealing with the response time. Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked, but the response time for vtot kind of houses, sprinkled or imsprinkled? Supervisor Desch replied, the response time for any building in the Town of Ithaca were the incentive in terms of saving tax costs will create incentive to retrofit for sprinkler systems. The State o^ Alaska has already in place a system for exerpting assessed value to retrofit sprinklers or to build sprinklers. Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked, it was something like 2% a year and she had figured it out that it would take a long time. Tofwn Board Minutes 32 October 17, 1988 Si:5)ervisor Desch replied, 2% may not be the right number for the Town of Ithaca. Councilwoman Raffensperger stated that she would rather see the Board provide incentives for voluntary sprinklering of one and two family hones than to require it at this point. Councilman Cardman called the question. Supervisor Desch replied that he thought it was time for the question. He went on to say, we have the question that has been raised with respect to definition. If that is our pleasure you are going to have to direct the Town Attorney to modify this and adjourn the hearing. Councilman Cardman asked the Town Attorney if it was necessary to adjourn the hearing, can't it be modified without an adjourned hearing and can't we take a vote? Si:5)ervisor Desch replied, you have to amend the law. Town Attorney Barney replied, we would have to produce an amended statute. Councilwonan Raffensperger asked what was the present status of the definitions in the law we have? What are the assumed ones viien it was passed in July? Town Attorney Barney replied, the building code, not the Zoning Ordinance. The building code would govern in this particular instance because you are dealing with building code requirements. Councilman Cardman remarked, and the building code here iirplies? Town Attorney Barney replied, \diat the Building Inspector suggests that you could have, v^at we would consider under zoning as multiple residents, \diich would become exempt if we were to subtract out one family and two family houses. Councilman Cardman remarked, multiple residences would become exempt? Town Attorney Barney replied, certain kinds. Those that the building code would treat as being handled under the single family or two family. The kind Mr. Frost indicated. A man in attendance replied, if they are party walls that gives the definition that it is a single family house. If it is a multiple they don't have party walls. If you build a structure that is six units and you separate them with a party wall it is defined as a single family house. Councilwoman Raffensperger remarked, in the building code but not in our Zoning Ordinance, this is v^ere the confusion is arising. For example, the apartments that Cornell has built out on Pleasant Grove Road, are they single family or are they multiple residences? Mr. Frost replied that he would assume they were multiple with the exception that if they had party walls, vMch he assumed they did not have. He felt it would be extremely xmlikely that they would have party walls. Councilwoman Raffensperger remarked, ultimately it is possible to pass these amendments tonight as they are and ask to have a public hearing in a month and to have the Town Attorney present definitions to us. Town Board Minutes 33 October 17, 1988 Supervisor Desch replied, any building permits that you get for attached one and two family houses will not be sprinklered. Attorney Barney speaking to Councilwoman Raffensperger asked if her concern was to add the word detached? Councilwoman Raffensperger replied, that is ri^t. Is that so substantial a change that we cannot do it tonight? Town Attorney Barney replied, every time we tamper with it and adopt or don't adopt it, it's not like we are adding a cotima or correcting a typographical error, there is law in each individual case as to vAiether it's a substantial enough change that requires renoticing of the hearing. He stated that his sense was that because of other problems with this hearing it might be wiser to adjourn the hearing. Coxincilman Cardman asked vdiat were the other problems? Town Attorney Bamey replied, we are holding the hearing here as opposed to v^ere it was actually noticed for. Councilman Cardman replied, so v^at you are telling us is that everything we are actually doing tonight we have a problem with because of the place we are holding the hearing. Is that v^at you are telling me? Town Attorney Barney replied, that's v^t he was saying. Councilman Cardman replied, then lets adjourn the meeting and vAiy are we fooling around? Supervisor Desch replied, the problem is only with the hearings. Councilman Cardman remarked that his point was, vdiy are we fooling ciround with this? Let's adjourn this meeting. He stated that he did not want to walk up to this issue that we act on this law or anything else and all these hearings and then have somebody come back to him and tell him the Board was out of order because somebody changed the place we are holding the meeting as opposed to v^ere it was originally advertised. Councilwoman Leary asked the Supervisor vdiy it was being held at the Machinist Union? Supervisor Desch replied that it was because of the request from most of the people v^o wanted a bigger room. Councilwoman Leary replied, but this was after it was advertised, right? Councilman Cardman remarked that this really puts us in a double jeopardy situation, we are sitting here and we are trying to be honest with these people. Now the Town Attorney is telling us vre have another prc±>lem because we changed the place v^ere we are holding the meeting. Why weren't we told this at 5:30 and we would have trucked back down to Town Hall so we would have been legal. Attorney Barney replied that he thought you would have difficulty with that because it was a mistake. It was not caught at the time the change was made and we were not aware vdiat the notice had said relative to the meeting. Councilman Carc3man moved the meeting be adjourned. Town Board Minutes 34 October 17, 1988 Councilwoman Raffensperger stated that she would like to make a motion. Councilman Cardman stated that he had a motion on the table for adjoiumment which takes presidence. Supervisor Desch asked if there was a second to the motion. He then annoimced that the motion failed for lack of a second. RESOLUTION NO. 303 ffotion by Councilwoman Raffensperger; seconded by Coimcilman Bartholf, WHEREAS, in that it is the intent of the Town Board to amend the Town of Ithaca Local Law No. 7, 1988 a local law requiring sprinkler systems so as to delete the requirement for one and two family detached dwelling imits, NOW THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca will meet and conduct a public hearing for November 10, 1988 at 6:30 P.M. to consider amending the law by deleting the sprinkler requirement for one and two family detached dwelling units. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bairtholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). PUBLIC HEARING TO COJSIDER AMENDING THE ZOmJG ORDINANCE AND LOCAL LAW #3 OF 1984, REGARDING THE EXPANSION OF PERMITTED USES ON THE LA TOURELLE PREMISES, 1150 DANBY ROAD, TOWN OF ITHACA TAX PARCEL NO. 6--36--1-4.2 Proof of posting and pi:iblication of a notice of a public hearing to consider amending the Zoning Ordinance and Local Law #3, of 1984 regarding the expansion of permitted uses on the La Tourelle premises, 1150 Danby Road, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 6-36-1-4.2 having been presented by, the Town Clerk, the Supervisor opened the public hearing. As no one present wished to speak for or against the proposed amendment, S\:5)ervisor Desch closed the public hearing. RESOLUTIOSr NO. 304 Motion by Supervisor Desch; seconded by Councilwcanan Raffensperger, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca will meet and hold a public hearing to consider amending the Zoning Ordinance and Local Law #3, of 1984 regarding the expansion of permitted uses on the La Tourelle premises, 1150 Danby Road, Tbwn of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 6-36-1-4.2 for 6:45 P.M., on Novesriber 10, 1988. (Desch, McPeak, Raffenspeirger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). PUBLIC HEARING TO CO^JSIDER AMENDING THE TOWN OF ITHACA TRAFFIC ORDINANCE TO PROVIDE FOR SIQJAGE OJ DATES DRIVE AND THE REPLACEMENT OF THE YTFTn SIGN WITH A STOP SIQJ AT THE CORNER OF SNYDER HHI, ROAD AND PINE TREE ROAD Proof of posting and publication of a notice of a pi:iblic hearing to consider amending the Town of Ithaca Traffic Ordinance to provide for signage on Dates Drive and the replacement of the yield sign with a stop sign at the comer of Snyder Hill Road and Pine Tree Tcjwn Board Minutes 35 October 17, 1988 Road having been presented the Town Clerk, the Supervisor opened the public hearing. Supervisor Desch asked the Town Attorney if the draft ordinance included all the revisions? Town Attorney Barney replied, this one has just the Dates Drive and the Snyder Hill. He stated that he would suggest the hearing be adjourned and then add to it the other signs that the Highway Superintendent has suggested. Beverly Livesay stated that she understood this request for a stop sign on Snyder Hill Road at Pine Tree Road but it was probably the perfect place for a yield sign but people don't obey the law. Probably if you put a stop sign there people may yield. She felt not many people would stop unless someone was coming. The problem that she had with this is should one go for enforconent of existing laws rather than winking at the laws and go for something a little more hoping people will cotply. She stated that she thought that if a Sheriff's car was stationed there at different times and arrested people v^o did not obey the yield sign. Councilman McPeak replied that he hoped there was better luck with that than v^at they had at Warren and Hanshaw. He stated that he has been on the Town Board for nine years and has been after the Sheriff's Department for nine years to have saneone sitting at Warren and Hanshaw during the week that the students arrive and he has never been successful. He stated the cars go through there like there is nothing there. Mrs. Livesay replied that the Sheriff's Department always says that for the kind of law enforcement that the Town of Ithaca wants they need to contract for extra duty. And of course the City of Ithaca puts out a vdiole police force, the Village of Cayuga Heights has its own police force, Dryden, Trumansburg, etc. We have talked about this several times, the Tcwn could have its cwn police force, the Town could contract with other police forces but it has never been done. Supervisor Desch asked Mrs. Livesay if she would rather have the Sheriff Department enforce a stop sign or a yield sign? Mrs. Livesay replied that she thought it was a good place for a yield sign because you do have enough visibility, if you really treat it like a yield sign, the visibility is fine. Councilwoman Raffenspeiger, speaking to Mrs. Livesay, went on to say that the only question is really not yielding to traffic in your lane but that the traffic comes down Snyder Hill so fast that as it ccmes around the comer it does not stay in its own lane but goes over into the other lane. So it really isn't just a matter of not yielding. Mrs. Livesay replied, but that certainly is not obeying a yield sign. The yield sign says you are able to stop let alone turn into the appropriate lane. Highway Superintendent Ozolins remarked that for the number of places vdiere we have yield signs as ccatpared to stop signs for uniformity, the stop signs are far more prevalent than yield. In a lot of cases \diere he felt a yield would probably do more than a stop sign, but with the amount of traffic that is ccming there you may have decent line of sight but he thought a stop sign would be far more appropriate. You do have people v^o are ccming down a hill and v^ether it is enforced or not, even if they yield or slew down, he then asked for a definition of yielding? Town Board Minutes 36 October 17, 1988 Mrs. Livesay replied, a yield says that you are able to ccme to a stop if anything is caning. A stop sign means that your \dieels must cone to a dead stop, they must stop any forward motion before you start ip again. A yield sign doesn't give you any more right of way it just means you vdieels don't have to stop rolling. Because of the two roads caning together, because of plenty of visibility it is a perfect place for a yield sign. It's almost like an on ramp. Supervisor Desch replied, there is a big difference here. Normally if you think about it where you see yield signs you can see in front of you at least 180 degrees the traffic that you have to yield to. In this case you are looking bdiind you and that is the reason you need a stop sign because the person caning to that yield has to look back 270 degrees behind and they do not look far enou^. Mrs. Livesay stated that she had been traveling that road for 30 years so she knew what you had to do to see. RESOLUTION NO. 305 Motion by Supervisor Desch; seconded by Councilman McPeak, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Tcwn of Ithaca will meet and hold a public hearing on November 10, 1988 at 9:15 P.M., to consider amending the Town of Ithaca Traffic Ordinance. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). PUBLIC HEARING TO CONSIDER A LOCAL LAW GOVERNING TAXI CABS IN THE TCWN OF ITHACA Proof of posting and publication of a notice of a public hearing to consider a local law governing taxi cabs in the Town of Ithaca having been presented by the Town Clerk, the Si:5Dervisor opened the public hearing. Stephen Flash attorney for Richard Clapp stated that he had prepared a mono dated October 14, 1988 addressed to the Town Board and that he would summarize the memo. Basically we do not feel that such an ordinance is required, there have have been no caiplaints and it is econatiically feasible. These are the same arguments that he presented the last time but he did not see v^ere the situation had changed any. He stated that he did not see any hue and cry requiring, irtposing upon a business regulations v^ch would inhibit the business. There are no carplaints that would require, you as a Town Board, to regulate a business in the piablic interest when they are providing a decent and good service without caipladLnts. Econanically as you can see fran the analyses that Piofessor Schuler did and he tried to simimarize, its (a) the econanics of it appear to be such that it is working properly. In other words vhere you have an open market and wdth no barriers and no body else has come into the market that implies that the business is operating successfully and providing a service without connplaint. If there were excessive profits there would be other people coming into the business and that is not the sitiiation here. It is also economically lanfeasible to impose such regulations due to the cost of enforcement because that cost would just be turned around and imposed on the user of the cabs and that is not going to get anybody anyvhere and, therefore, for these reasons we would oppose it. Itown Board Minutes 37 October 17, 1988 Councilman McPeak remarked that in talking with this gentleman and other people have made ccannments, there probably haven't been any ccanplaints but ma.)^ people don't know vdiere to ccnplain. He stated that he lived in the Northeast and asked a neighbor of his because she rides the taxi cabs quite frequently. From the Northeast area \diere he lives up on Birchwood Drive to Stewart, ffcKeon and Yale on Cliff Street was $6.00 each way. To go to the hospital, a mile and a half further was $5.00 additional each way. That last mile and a half cost $5.00. Are we paying a premium or an extra fee to go to the hospital? He stated that he was ccmfortable with the rates because he felt scraebody had figured out they needed so much a mile to recover the cost but v^en you take on $5.00 to go that last mile and a half, then he had seme questions about the rate structure. He then a^ed, do you see vtet he was saying? Mr. Flash replied that he saw vdiat Councilman McPeak was saying but he did not know about that particular situation. Councilman McPeak replied, well my neighbor rides the cabs and and she was ccsfiplaining to him, asking v^y does it cost her $6.00 to go almost to the hospital, within a mile and a half it cost $5.00 each way so that's an addition $10.00 for three miles. Mr. Flash replied that the way he understood it to be set up, at this point is and vMch makes sense, is that within the City there is basically vdiat you call a start up, so there is a basic charge within the City. Once you go out you are \^at should be a per mile rate. Now if that is not the situation, vMch it doesn't appear to be fran that one particular ccatplaint. Councilman McPeak ronarked, which it is not and that is an irrportant one. Mr. Flash replied that he understood it was an irrportant one but you must also understand this is the first that he has heard of this particular ccnplaint and did not know if Tower Taxi has heard this ccnplaint or not. The way it is set up at this particular point, if there is such a situation v^ere the rates are established by agreement that she shouldn't agree to pay that. He stated that he realized, what Ms. Leary was laughing and smiling about, because he was not sure she entirely knew v^at she was talking about. Councilman Cardman replied, stop and stick to your point, let's not insult Board members. Mr. Flash replied tliat he did not think he needed to have her laughing, this is a serious conversation. He went on to say that his understanding was that it was by agreement and if she can't agree with the rate and yet she needs the service then she has grounds for ccnplaint but he had not heard of any ccnpladLnts* Councilman McPeak relied no, she only ccraplained to me. Councilwoman Leary replied that the arguments that were advanced both in the cover letter and the econcmic analyses she felt did not stand up on several points. First of all. Councilman McPeak's example is a perfect example of vtot she means. Economically disadvantaged don't, as a rule, ccarplain she felt. Her questioning of the people in Gadabout, the director of Gadabout, and her response that there are ccnplaints that they hear all the time from their clients about the rates and the taxi cab indicates that there is a fairly substantial number of people in the ccramunity for v^om these rates pose hardship. You don't hear them ccnplaining because they are not just that politically sophisticated. They either shut up and pay or they don't ride. It's not kind of a negotiating Town Boaid Minutes 38 October 17, 1988 thing every time you get into a cab. You call the dispatcher, you ask how much will it be to the hospital, they tell you how much and if you need it that badly, you don't negotiate, you get into the cab and you pay. Your point about my seeking out these caiplaints, she felt as a good representative that was your job. You go to your constituents, you find out, even people vdio don't routinely cdiplain. Now you state that Tower Taxi itself has received no can:plaints. We don't know this, there is no way to prove it and as a matter of fact you've heard of a complaint and she had heard of a corplaint that went directly to Tower Taxi. She stated that she had spoken to the director of Rape Crises, vhich is a group that is interested in this issue, they got of copy of the ordinance because for some people it is a safety issue at night. They rely on cabs rather than walk alone at night in the dark. She told Councilworaan Leary that they discussed this ordinance in the office and the general attitude of most of the counselors is that it's like there is not cab service in Town because it's so hard to get one. Why is it hard to get one, because of the demand and that is vdiat drives the rates up. The director stated that in one instance they had prearranged a pick up at the airport for an inportant out of town speaker and the cab just never showed up. She called Tower, it was within the last year so it would be Tower, so there is a ccnplaint right there that they haven't told up about. Mr. Clapp added, if it was in the last year it could have been Major Blue also. Councilwcsnan Leary replied that she thought the director was talking about Tower. Mr. Clapp replied, you don't know that now do you. You would like to think that. Councilwonan Leary replied. Major Blue had one cab operating in the last year. Mr. Clapp replied that is not true either. They went down fran four vehicles at the beginning of the year to one the last two months they were in business. Councilwoman Leary replied, most likely it was Tower. The point is is that the cab service in the Town isn't as good as people would like to see it and part of it is the demand. Supervisor Desch asked if anyone else wished to coaranent? Ronald Ronsvalle, 628 Coddington Road stated that he has lived in the Town of Ithaca for fifty years. He stated that he was speaking as a concerned citizen of the Town of Ithaca and he wished to know if there was a need for a taxi ccapany? He asked if this was a legitimate question? He went on to say that his mother and mother-in-law use a taxi copany and he did not care vdiich one, they have never complained about the fare to the hospital or doctor. Now we don't live in the Northeast because we live on the Coddington Road. There is no Tomtran out there and Gadabout you have to call a day or two ahead. Right? So if my mother is sick and can't drive and has to get to a doctor and he was out of town she call a cab ccnpany. He stated that he did not care vdiich one. So he felt this was a needless discussion to begin with. There are virtually no ccaplaints in the Town of Ithaca of seme 18,000 people. He stated that he would like to know the answers to five questions then he would set down. Who is the chairperson of this ccramittee? How many legitimate legal ccmplaints are there on record, not vho drove what ccnpany nine months ago or six months ago, was it Tower, Blue cab or Terminal? He stated that he did financial planning work, he was not a genius by any means, but he Town Board Minutes 39 October 17, 1988 knew that liability insurance for cabs was $2,200 a year. Now there is nobody throwing their hat in the ring say they were going to juitp in and buy a cab or two or three. There is a need for the cab caipany. There is a need for Gadabout. They each serve their own purpose. If there is an ordinance designed and this cab, the last one by the way in the Town of Ithaca, goes out of business v^o is going to fill that need? He stated that he did not see an^toly offering two or three cabs in this area to do that. That is nothing on the Town Board to do that. They don't get paid holidays like people at Cornell, IBM or Kodak. He stated that he had checked with the Town offices today and there are no legitimate ccnplaints laying anyv^ere. So he could not see the need for the fiasco that is going on in an ordinance. It's like creating a square v^eel. The market is open, there are no excess profits that he could see except that one person that crosses two or three boundaries, if they call up a head of time and ask how much it was going to cost from Coddington Road to the hospital they can tell them. Mr. Ronsvalle went on to say that the second point he wished to make was who was going to enforce this ordinance, this law and v^at is this going to cost the taxpayer of the Town of Ithaca? He asked if anyone had a handle on this? If they go out, v^o is going to fill that void? He stated that he was not in love with any Tower Taxi, Blue cab or Terminal of any of them. He had two relatives that need this service v^en he was out of town. As a constituent of this Town of Ithaca, and you are elected officers, there are a lot more pressing issues that this council should be addressing such as the Route 96 problem v^ich has lasted twenty years, you should be contacting County people and on and on and on. What are our fire taxes going to run? He stated that he felt this was wasted time. Councilman Cardman asked, do we have any figures, is there any way of detertnining vdiat might be excess profit or of determining vdiy it costs that extra $5.00 to go that mile and half. Do we know v^y? Do we have any cost figures? Mr. Flash replied as he said in his first note, we did not pull together any cost figures because the accounting that was done for '87 was done for tax reasons and really has no bearings on this and can't be used for two reasons to establish cost figures in '88 because the business has changed and accounting for taxes is entirely different. Councilman Cardman replied, are you saying you have no operational costs? Mr. Flash replied no he was not saying they had no operational costs. He was saying that a tabulation of those figures for '88 we don't have at this point. Councilman Cardman replied, you don't have first quarter operational costs for '88? Mr. Flash replied, apparently not and that he did not do the accounting. Coimcilraan Cardman replied to your knowledge you have no operational cost figures for '88 and none that would be woirthvdiile for '87? Mr. Flash replied that there were cost figures for '87 and there may be cost figures for '88 but they are not in a form that you can utilize to establish, v^en you are talking about regulating a cab corpany you are talking about factors that require, there are a Town Board Minutes 40 October 17, 1988 number of factors that would have to be pulled together, v^ch we do not have. For instance, how many miles does a cab drive that is enpty, and to vAiat point. How many passengers. As Professor Schuler laid out in basic econcmic terms, it isn't just a matter of dividing the number of miles times the passengers. Councilman Cardman replied, then vtot you are telling me is that you have no way of determining v^at the costs are. Mr. Flash replied, no there are ways. Councilman Cardman replied but there are none that you are willing to provide us because they are not available right now. Mr. Flash replied, correct. Councilman Cardman asked vtot was the reason of the cost for the extra mile and a half each way, total of three miles at a cost of $10.00, vtot is the reason for that? Mr. Flash replied that his understanding was that v^en there are zones established within the City, ^en you go outside of the Cii^ into the Town it is a different rate. Because he is going frcm the City to the Town. Councilman Cardman remarked, that is vdiat we are attempting to regulate, correct? Mr. Flash replied, that is one of the things you are attenpting to regulate. You are also regulatingfinfrazones within the Town. Councilman McPeak ranarked that he would just like to clear up one point. The ccnplaint came to him because he was seeking it out. He stated that he asked the person. When he asked his neighbor because he knew she used the cabs, he asked her vdiat she was paying and she said the last mile and half up and back frcm the hospital costs me $10.00. He figured that if they were basing the system on a cost per mile then something was wrong. He stated that his ccnplaint was the cost per mile doesn't seem to be uniform. We need a cab and lot of people use and and he was not saying put the cab business out he was just questioning the difference in the rate structure. Mr. Clapp replied, we need a $1.50 a mile. Councilman McPeak replied, well you are not getting that. Mr. Clapp continued, \^en we are ccming down that area we are talking three miles down, we are talking three miles back up. At $1.50 per mile that ccmes to $9.00. Councilman JfcPeak replied that he had checked the mileage today from his house and it was 15 miles 2x>und trip. If you start at the Ramada and ccme up there and go back down again, you are getting $6.00 for that. Mr. Clapp replied, that's right. He was not counting the empty. Councilman McPeak replied no and he took the worse case. But the additional three miles is an additional $10.00. Mr. Flash replied, v^at you are doing is you are fixing that $10.00 to those three miles v^ere it should be a cost that is spread out for the entire ride. Councilman McPeak replied, that would be fine but it's not. Town Board Minutes 41 October 17, 1988 Mr. Flash replied, that's effectively \diat is happening. Councilman McPeak replied, but it's not. Mr. Clapp ronarked, 821 Cliff Street is inside the City limits. So we are governed by the City zone there. So we cone the three miles into the City. Councilman McPeak remarked, so vAien you cross over the Town, Mr. Clapp replied, that's the only way we can get close to a true mileage figure on the way up through there. Councilwcman Leary renarked that this is v^t this ordinance is trying to address, large increases like that. $10.00 for three miles. When we devised the proposed rate structure v^at we focused on was the jump that occurs once you get out of the City. It retains the dollar a mile. A lot was made in this econcmic analyses about how terrible a dollar a mile is, this rate is v^t Mr. Clapp has been using. No one inposed it on him, so we can assume it is acceptable to him. Now that we want to put it into law he starts screaming. The point she was making regarding complaints, looking for logged in legal complaints is off the point. Nobody is going to cone to the Town and complain to us. You say that the Better Business Bureau has not referred any complaints to Tower Taxi, ma^be because there is no Better Business Biareau in Ithaca or Tompkins County. The closest one is Syracuse. Sone one is going to make a long distance call to the Syracuse Better Business Bureau because that's the place to log in conplaints? Mr. Ronsvalle remarked, there is a Chamber of Commerce though. Councilwoman Leary replied they don't function as a Better Business Bureau. An econanically disadvantaged person is not going to decide where to log a complaint. They don't complain. Are they going to complain to a cab driver? Cab drives can be very intimidating and very rude. Supervisor Desch stated that he felt the Board was at a point vbere the hearing should be adjourned. RESOLUTIOJ NO. 306 Motion by Supervisor Desch; seconded by Councilman McPeak, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca will meet and conduct a public hearing at 7:00 P.M., on December 12, 1988 to consider a local law governing taxi cabs in the Town of Ithaca. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Baartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). ACCEPTANCE OF PROPOSED ROADS AND OTHER PUBLIC FACILITIES FOR SOUTHWOODS SUBDIVISION, EAST KING ROAD Supervisor Desch stated that since he had a potential conflict of interest with this item he will leave this iton to Deputy Supervisor McPeak to Chair. Edward Hallberg stated that he foimd out about this item being on the agenda as he walked into the door tonight. If it pleased the Board he would like to move this lantil November as he was not prepared. Tofwn Board Minutes 42 October 17, 1988 Supervisor Desch replied that the November meeting was solid full. Mr. Hallberg replied that he would then try to wing it tonight and would try to answer the Board's questions to the best of his knowledge. Deputy Supervisor McPeak asked Mr. Hallberg if he would feel more confortable in delaying the item? Mr. Hallberg replied that he would feel more ccmfortable in terms of preparedness but he would hate to get beyond November 10th because we are trying to get into final plat approval. Comcilwatan Raffensperger asked if this project had received preliminary subdivision approval from the Planning Board? Town Planner Beeners replied, yes it has. Mr. Hallberg stated that the location of the project is on East King Road between Coddington Road and Troy Road. A 43 lot subdivision in a R-30 zone with approximately 50 acres with approximately 50,000 square feet per lot. A single entrance from East King Road looped with short cul-de-sac. The water system is looped and then goes down to serve Coddington Road. We bring down water and sewer frcm Troy Road, loop it within the development. Sewage would be allowed through the easement to a purtping station and then pumped back up to Troy Road. Councilman Bartholf remarked, the water and sewer are not there now, correct? Mr. Hallberg replied, that is correct. Councilman Bartholf replied, and you are paying for this? Mr. Hallberg replied, that is correct. Councilwoman Raffensperger asked if there were two entrances? Mr. Hallberg replied, no. Deputy Supervisor McPeak asked if the cul-de-sac was wide enough to turn a fire truck around? Mr. Hallberg replied yes, it is 700 feet. Councilwoman Raffensperger remarked that typically she thought the Planning Board likes two entrances to a subdivision. She thought that she had missed one and wondered v^y that had not been a requirement for this subdivision? Town Planner Beeners replied that the roads are designed here so that there is technically no real section that is a 1000' long without a way to turn around. There was not really any discussion by the Planning Board of having two entrances on King Road, especially for single family lots \^ere there are only 43 of thon. There was a discussion about v^ether or not a right-of-way should be extended across the ravine on to the south side of the property into the remaining lands of Desch and May vAiich remain vacant at the present time vAiere perhaps you could have had a second access. That was not preferred. Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked that as opposed to open space dedication it was her understanding that the developers are going to make a contribution to the nature conseirvancy? Town Board Minutes 43 October 17, 1988 Mr. Hallberg stated that they were boundaried by the Eldridge Wilderness and one of the concerns the conservancy had was the encroachment of the development on the nature conservancy. Mr. Hallberg stated that they have offered a series of set backs and no cut zones so that they WDn't physically or visually encroach \:5)on the conservancy itself. Councilwcman Raffensperger replied, let's be clear \tet you are talking about. Those are deed restrictions not buffer zones. Mr. Hallberg replied that is correct. One of the concerns the nature conseirvancy voiced was that they have a series of trails within the old wilderness and they were concerned about increased costs to the conservancy brought about by this development and other developments in the area. We have offered, in lieu of land, to donate cash vMch is called for in the subdivision regulations as an alternative instead of to the Town. In this case we have offered to make donations directly to the conservancy to service their needs. Councilman Bartholf remarked, the water runoff, has this been addressed? Mr. Hallberg replied that the plan calls for two retention ponds that will catch heavy run off. One of the reasons the road is shaped the way it is is because it becones a natural interseptor to control the water much better this way. Councilwcman Raffensperger stated that this was a very unique situation with the Eldridge Wilderness next door, she asked the Town Attorney if we were setting vtot she felt would be a very imfortunate president permitting deed restrictions to substitute for open space dedication. This does not set a president because this is such an unusual situation, she asked if she were correct? Town Attorney Barney replied that anything was a president but the Town Planning Board has on occasion waived the requirement for open space either for the topography or because of feeling that open space doesn't serve any great useful purpose and that another park is not going to particularly benefit anyone. This was one of those occasions. He noted that there was quite a discussion at the Planning Board. Mr. Hallberg and his group volunteered to make this contribution to the nature conservancy and he felt this impacted seme on the Planning Board decision that they did not want additional open space over and above v^at was already there. It's a voluntary payment and it's not structured in such a way that the Town is going to be able to enforce it against Mr. Hallberg. Deputy Supervisor McPeak asked if there were any ccnments frcm the audience on this proposal? Mr. Whitccmb stated that they had held two meetings with Mr. Hallberg and Mr. Smith from the conservancy. Mr. Smith was essentially in agreement with viiat has been done here so far. The only thing that we still wonder about is that there are a number of imusual plants that are very close to the boundary of this subdivision and in talking with the Town Planner the other day we wondered if it might not be appropriate to further buffer those plants beyond the deed restrictions. He stated that he did not know v^ere those plants were in relation to the boundary line and he did not think anyone else did either. He asked if there had been an official survey done? Mr. Hallberg replied no. We have had the site examined for plants by Cornell Plantations on the map that we provided to you showing \diere the plants were. There are scarce but not imique nor rare Town Board Minutes 44 October 17, 1988 plants in the area. Developnent in the area would not be effected by these plants. He stated that he would be glad to make the report available to the Town Board. Mr. Whitccnib stated that Mr. Smith was concerned about a grove of black gum trees v^ch he thinks are in the Wilderness. Mr. Hallberg replied that there was absolutely black gum \^ch was on a lot of peoples properties on South Hill. RESOLUTION NO. 307 Motion by Councilman Bartholf; seconded by Deputy Supervisor McPeak, WHEREAS, 1. The Town of Ithaca Subdivision Regulations require the approval of roads and other public facilities proposed in a subdivision by the Town Board. 2. The Planning Board on October 4, 1988 granted Preliminary Subdivision i^roval with certain conditions to the proposed "Southwoods" Subdivision, proposed to be located on East King Road between Troy and Coddington Roads, and proposed to consist of 43 single family lots to be subdivided out of a 51.75+/- acre portion of Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 6-46-1-15.2, 122.9 acres total. 3. The Town Board on October 17, 1988 has reviewed the location of proposed roads, water and sewer mains, and sewage purrping station. 4. The Town Board on October 17, 1988 has also heard a report froti the Town Planner on the developer's agreement to donate funds to assist in defraying the increased cost of managenent of the adjacent Eldridge Wilderness resulting frcm its increased use and population pressure, with same donation having been found acceptable by the Planning Board in lieu of a portion of the usual ten percent public open space dedication, and with the Planning Board having found that certain designated no-development buffers on the site were generally acceptable in fulfilling the remaining portion of an equivalent to public open space dedication. TEJEREPORE it is resolved, that the Town Board accept and hereby does accept the locations of the proposed aforementioned public facilities, subject to the ccmpliance by the developer with all conditions and requirements that have been or may be inposed by the Town as part of future project consideration. (McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Cardman voting Aye. Nays - none). ADJOURNMENT The meeting was duly adjourned. Town Clerk A,T.'DAv;r or tvujcmoti i^vnui iiii ■KUUffouiiKiaeuiTSftOftK.'ttaiw^ /-^ The Ithaca Journal ^Sadj cf ^tfr ^nrL, Ccnmtj, - btirg du}\ ?v.'orri, deposw a^d M>*j, ti-Lt hi rssidei ir ItKicsu, Cour^^^• aisd itate ti^retiJc tsd tiatt he !♦ ..^.r.7».- Tbi irsAC-^L Jo'.'pjna:. a puhlic i>ew-srp£per prictec and p-jblished fci Idaaisfc afore*Lid, and that ^ DOtiDe, of which the anncx^ is a trae cop>*, puhlirbtd in i.Bid paper flL&d that the L'rl publicaticri of aaic Dodoe oo the ..Q dty of 15S £... JEAN FORD hcicrifubu:. Notary Public, State of New York No. 4654410 ■ Qualified in Tompkins County Commission expires May 31,19*.J / TOWN OF IIHACA, NOTICE OF.;PUBLIC HEARING v?PLEASE TAKE NOTICE, that the I) .Town Board of the Town of . thoca will meet and conduct ji public hearing on October 17, 1988, at 7:30 P.M., to consider amending Local Law tf7, 1988, excluding the require ment ' of the installation . of sprinklers systems in new oneand two family dwellings'aridwill dt this time hear all.person in favor of or opposed to said amendment.^ \ Jeon H. Swartwood October 7, 1988 Town Clerk Lf (y AfriDAVtr or rvsjjcAnos ^ The Ithaca Journal ^h2ds tr' ^ttr ^ dtIl, Crrur:!^, shut — being du3> rv'-om. deposts tnsd Mv-x^ tnit be resides in Itbaci^ CounS' and state airreiiid tad ditl be ie of Tke Its-'vC-^. JotT-sA^ a public De^*TpBpe^ printed and pjblisbed tn Itbast iforesaid. tad that \ aoticre, of wbidb tbe snncxed is 2 true €cp>-, vts publisbec in said paper ii?d Ois.'. tbt Er?t publication cf snid artier on ibe ..Q day cf 15££... Sub»2rlbesd tnd r^'orz tn bedore me. fb-g of / - d£' JEAN FORD Notary Public, State of New York No. 4654410 QualiOed in Tompkins Count Commission expires May 31,19, Fub'! I OWN OF ITHACA, NOTICE OF: PUBLIC HEARING PLEASE TAKE NOTICE, thai the! Town Board of the Town of! ithoco will meet ond conduct; o public hearing on October; 17, 1988. dl 8:C0 P.M., ot the Town Holl, 126 Eost Seneco Street, Ithoco, New York, to; consider omending the Zon ing Ordinonce ond Locol Low; #3 of 1984, regording the ex-' ponsion of permitted uses on the Lo Tourelle premises, 1150 Donby Rood, Town of Ithoco! Tox Porcel No. 6-36-1-4.2, ond will ot this time heor oil per-' sons in fovor of or opposed to the odoption of sold locol lowJ Jeon H. Swortwood Town Clerki October 7, 1988 | AfFtDAVlT OP ny&XJCATlOK /-N The Ithaca Journal tr' l^nrk, Cczrcpkbis CcTxrTfr, ga_: ~-&iLi.-u.Ji.':;l.-T.r.rL\ bcksg Cu); TV.-Orz., 6rpO$CS &rsz usz. tLs-t be rend« ir ItK&csL, Courir> tad state Eic^resiid njo tbxt be i* ..jLAH.rJ;- of Tse Ite-'^c.a. Jo'.t.ka^ & poblic &r^-fp£per prirtac and published fc Ithaua afcK-esaid, and that ^ i>otot, oS *-hicb the annex^ is a true Carps*, n*u pubiiibed in itid paper <D-..CuS^5fer^rf:W._QJ .._... r \ 4id thi*. the £rst pub'licctirr o: s&ic nrt;: dav of ^,( v-'ts CD the ..Q. ......... *7ai>^ iw... S*a*»2K^b(^ 5^- before me, thii cT _ d-^inUrU!:^. .^. ....^...2-._... C£V JEAN FORD Notary Public, State of New YoH^ No. 4654410 Quaiified in Tompkins County^^ Commission expires May 31, 19,^ / TOWN OF ITHACA, NOTICE Of"' PUBLIC HEARING PLEASE TAKE NOTICE. Ihof ih^'" Town Board of the . Town of jmoco will rneet ond conducV ?-rPtnLo on October17, 1988 Of S.irp.M., Of the Hall, 126 East Senecdstreet Ithaca, New York, to consider omeriding the Town * or Ithaca Traffic Ordinance to provide for signoge on Dotes Drive and the replacement of 'the yield sign with a stop sigh ot the corner of Snyder Hill, Road and Pine Tree Road, aiid will at this time hear all per-'' soi^ Ip favor of or opposed to' said amendments to the Trof- tic Ordinance. Jean H. Swartwood October >. 1988 14^(40^ ^•^FtOAVlT Of Tt^^UCATsOS /-^ The Ithaca Journal tr. ^tir ^crrk, Cinspkim aHt.: - - Etisg du}) ru*DrT.. drDO^Cv ^^'^. tifcLt Li resides ir ItEecit.. County* &d£ ct2te Bd?rcs<Jd tad dut be L* oi Tsz Ite^za Joi'p-SAj. i prj&Iic De^Tps-per priutec and published fc ItEica. ifsrejiiC- *2id tiiat ^ &otiDe, cd wbidh tbe ajmtxec is a true ccp^-, '»'sj p'jblisb&d ir said pip<r ;. Mfd tbut' tb-T £-'r. publicreticL o: s-sJz was os tie ..C^. dcv cf -... 19o £... Subitrv^^ Lsc r»^*prr tc- n>€, thi; d^^• d » 19.„S.f? JEAN FORD J-V^, Fuiii:^ Notary Public, State of New York No. 4654410 Qualified in Tompkins County Commission expires May 31,19MjLat I " TTTITIMt llin IMI IIM HI IWIir ni l 11 llllll I I 11 II H HI I in ^ TOWN OF ITHACA. NOTICE OF. f * PUBLIC HEARING • . -v:':; '■. ■ ■]PLEASE TAKE NOTICE; tharthe:./Town.^Board 6f,theYTown^bfJ Ithocd'Wiil. meet and cohducrc public.hearing ca October'17. 1988 at 8:30 P.m:, dl theTown .Halj, 126 .East SehecdStreet, Ithdcd, New .Yprk, to.consider a local law governing taxi cabs in"'the Town'ofIthoro and will- dt 'this time'hear all persons in .favor of or' ■rr opposed to the adoption of 'sold local law.' /..... J- .--.iJean H. Swdrtwood•; " .. Town Clerk;*^ "October 7, 1988 " i'! ■ ^p Jf