HomeMy WebLinkAbout1993-03-22 - PB 31
TOWN OF ULYSSES
PLANNING BOARD MEETING
MARCH 22 , 1993
TOWN HALL
7 : 30 P . M .
P resent : Chairman David Tyler , Members : Ktys Call , Richard
Garner , Gregg Hoffmire , Geraldine Keil , Dan Smith ,
M . Budd Stover ; Zoning /Building Officer , Alex
Rachun and Secretary : Roxanne Smith
O thers present : Charles Oaks , David McLallen and Mark
Cori . Ben Curtis arrived at 8 : 30 P . M .
Chairman David Tyler called the meeting to order at
7 : 37 P . M . Dan Smith made the motion to approve the minutes
from February 22 , 1993 . Gregg Hoffmire seconded . All were
in favor .
D avid mentioned that in the future there was a request
for a subdivision being submitted though he had not received
any information on it . Also the Pleasant Grove PUD is wait -
ing for consideration .
H e then turned to the letter originally addressed to
Alex Rachun from Helen McLallen on the American Legion matter .
Everyone had received a copy . ( Helen is the daughter of the
McLallens who live across the road from the proposed location
for the new American Legion site . ) She called a planning
specialist in the state department and he said they ' d view
t he American Legion as commercial because of the activities .
D an stated he didn ' t place much stock in the letter as the
information could be twisted around .
David requested the members to focus their discussion on
t he alternatives before them concerning the social club use
in the Town of Ulysses . The PUD ( for the American Legion ) is
o n hold and the Town Board asked the Planning Board in Feb -
ruary to consider the broader zoning issue . The following are
the alternatives : 1 . Create a new category of use and define
where to put it . A ) A77owit in Residential by Special Permit
or B ) Business District only or some combination of that .
2 . Create two or more Residence Zones and allow a more intense
use zone ( addressed a couple of months ago ) .
3 . Defer the issue until the Master Plan Committee can reco -
mend fixing the Zoning Ordinance ' s deficiencies .
G erri inquired about the Trumansburg Fairgrounds and what
category it was considered . Dan said " D " , Public Park . Gerri
mentioned that camping was allowed . Dick wondered why Gerri
mentioned it ? Gerri stated she was trying to come up with a
model that was closest to the American Legion . She thought
o f the Fairgrounds as a place where people gathered ( sometimes
o utside ) .
K rys asked ( looking through the Zoning Ordinance ) is there
a legitimate distinction made between whether the business is
operated on a commercial basis or a not - for - profit basis ( non -
commercial ) ; and isn ' t that in a way defining an attribute of
t he owner , not of the use ? Is a legal precedent being made ?
D avid didn ' t know but likened what the Board had suggested
w as trying to put new wine in old bottles . Dan said something
has got to be changed there really wasn ' t a way to make it fit
many things into what ' s there . Dick said the issues that were
raised they ' ve been over again and again . It ' s the same old
thing . Are we trying to do the impossible ? David asked what
would the Board say to ammending the Zoning Ordinance to say
n ot - for - profit social club is permissible for use in a Residen -
tial Zone ? Dick said the Zoning Ordinance was a fine document
TOWN OF ULYSSES 2
PLANNING BOARD MEETING
MARCH 22r1993
when there was no growth , but perhaps it has outlived its use -
fulness . Now that change is occurring the American Legion is a
symptom of things to come . David said that if the Town Board
had elected to vote on the PUD and voted it down before sending
it back to the Planning Board it would be a different matter .
The PUD is still on the burner .
terri brought up the question what is the function of the
P lanning Board ? Are we just the eyes " people for the Town Board ?
Is that what we are expected to to when they don ' t like what
w e advise ? Dave responded that when we sent it back to them we
asked them to tell us what they wanted us to do . They said
something like " consider something like a Special Permit . " Dick
queried where does the whole issue of planning come into this ?
t rys agreed with Budd ' s point ( from the previous meeting ) that
t he idea of using special permits could have the potential of
being very cumbersome . Dick said there is no sort of plan as
to how these special permits are anted on . Dan said this takes
it back to what was discussed earlier , splitting the Residential
into two cones ( regarding intensity ) . Regarding future use e
larger building would fit into the higher density Residential .
If the business failed the building wouldn ' t be out there , it
could be used for apartments Krys said . She also felt that
Alex ' s point was well taken concerning multi - family dwellings .
They are out there but with no formal plan for location ; and
there are more than you realize .
B udd queried whether e social club was possible for it to
fit into a B2 ? Everyone agreed it could fit in a B1 or a Ni .
There is e time limit on how late it could remain open however .
David stated that by all agreeing on e Ni or e B2 alternative
number 3 can be eliminated ( deferring the issue ) .
D ick asked what happens if we send it back with e Ni or
12 recommendation ? David said they could to what they want .
They ' ve already approved Si zones . They ' re going to be bring -
ing another 82 eons proposal to us very shortly . Alex stated
the B2 that needs to be looked at is a request from Planning
and Development . It is within the task of the Planning Board
and Town Board to look at it not only as a PUD but as another
function . If it comes in as a PUD and goes out as e PUD you run
t he risk of spot zoning . If it comes out as e B2 it could eas -
ily fit into some sort of Comprehensive Plan . He was not too
concerned with the constraints of the property being one prop -
erty owner as he was with the Auble property .
How close is the old drive - in to this property inquired
t oys . About two miles said Alex . The drive - in area was com -
mercial , they then requested to be a mobile home sales 1st ,
which is not allowed in Ni . It went from Commercial to BUD .
It is inactive because the owner has had hardship . Most PNte
don ' t go in with a timely nature . The PUD goes with the land not
with the person if the property is sold . Alex had to leave to
attend another meeting ( 8 ; tlt . M . ) .
Budd said let ' s give the Town a list of possibilities .
Dick said he support , e Ni or a B2 . ( Since they currently
don ' t have anything else . ) One of the things we thought we
were creating in the 02 was e low impact , semi - commercial
district in the Residential area . One of the things we pur -
posely zoned out of that area was this type of a social club .
We were not looking for a bar . We made a big point of that .
Now the Legion would fall there . I think $ 2 isn ' t e good place ,
stated Cerri . Dan agreed that that was e good point .
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TOWN OF ULYSSES 3
P LANNING BOARD MEETING
MARCH 22 , 1993
Do we all feel uncomfortable putting a social club in a
Residential area carte blanche queried Dave ? If we did it by
S pecial Permit stated Dan . Who do you want to look at the Spec -
ial Permit asked David ? I think then it ' s like taking " D Day "
and pushing it further down the road ; letting it be someone
e lse ' s headache . I remember Ben Curtis saying he didn ' t like
d eciding it separately every time . That it was a lot cleaner
if you just set up the conditions . It takes it a little bit
more away from this sense of whom somebody is . If you fit the
criteria , go ahead . If you don ' t - sorry , stated Krys . One of
the things I would like to ask the Legion is if they ' re still
interested in this one particular site stated Gerri . That
shouldn ' t be the issue said Dave . We would not feel the pres -
sure then said Gerri .
Not every social club is a bar stated Krys . ( The YMCA
o r Masonic Temple for instance . ) Let it go in a B1 or B2 then
leave it up to the individual club whether they wanted ' to ad -
h ere to the time limits . The limiting factor for the Legion
in B2 would be the hour of closure said Dan .
The Board arrived at a consensus that B1 is appropriate
for a social club . B2 would be allowed if they abide by the
h our , otherwise they need a Special Permit . Outdoor assembly
is allowed ( just as in a public park ) . It will not be allowed
in Residential , even by Special Permit ( as the Zoning Ordin -
ance stands today ) .
When looking at Residential Krys found it sketchy in
places . She would like to see larger buildings limited in
Residential ( perhaps keeping them to 10 , 000 square feetfeot -
pra ) . The Residential needs to be rewritten . Dave said if
w e rewrite it the question is where is it going to go ? The
Master Plan Committee needs to be inspired about the importance
o f what they are doing , they can be urged along . David thought
the maps were pretty good , they just need to be refined . At
t his point in the meeting Alex returned ( 8 : 25 P . M . ) .
Krys wondered how the water extensions , fit into all of
t his . If you have a water extension that is the place where
you ' ll end up with a multi - unit or a social club . Dick felt
t his was an excellent point . The Town is going to have to
address water . You have to decide where to cut off the higher
densities stated Dan . More than likely your higher density
Residentials are going to be on the edge of the Village .
Alex stated that zoning is being created without a
Master Plan ( if the Residential is split ) that the Board is
going outside of the framework . Originally he felt that
t his was something that should come out of a Comprehensive
P lan . You have to work with some tool provided - generally
t hat is a Master Plan . The zoning applies to the Master Plan .
N ow you are just dealing with it much like a PUD . David said
we can come up with the categories but we can ' t tell the Town
B oard where to put them . Alex said there are some logical
t hings in our Town . There are logical major arteries , places
w here water can happen , logical flat areas that are amenable
t o development . He did not say to not proceed . Many of the
multi - units are at the south end of town . The major arteries
h ave them . David said that we could look at the present
u sage and let that define it . We are doing a pre - empting of
the Master Plan . Alex stated that the Board would not be
creating something above and beyond what the Master Plan would
show , just one zone with allowable uses . Nothing out of the
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TOWN OF ULYSSES 4
PLANNING BOARD MEETING
MARCH 22 , 1993
ordinary would be created . David said that re - defining and
expanding would take place .
K rys stated that she would like to see the Special Per -
mit uses more stringently defined so that there would be
places allowed by right not by each and every one of them hav -
ing to go through the application process . There ought to
be a place in zoning for cemeteries for instance .
D avid came back to alternative number two for the Board
to consider . Rewrite the Zoning Ordinance with at least two
tiers in Residential . Some zoning ordinances make the dis -
tinction between an indoor and outdoor social club . If a
social club were like a fish and game ( hunting ) club then
you ' d want it to be outdoor said Krys .
Alex inquired as to whether anyone had seen the new maps .
D avid said yes . Alex said the highest density is along the
lake . The second would be found on Rt . 96 . Krys mentioned
t he trailer park would constitute higher density .
D avid mentioned item number two again , if in Residential
what conditions would apply ? He answered at least two tiers ,
with the Master Plan Committee input to locate the tiers .
Krys suggested implementing an artificial time limit . Gerri
stated the Master Plan Committee was still a long way from
h aving the tiers located . Alex reiterated that the Master
P lan Committee would come up with the Comprehensive Plan and
the Planning Board would recommend zoning to the Town Board .
D avid said that a time limit is reasonable .
B en Curtis made the comment that there is pressure to
bring this issue to closure . The Town Board recognized that
t he zoning was deficient . Would it be possible to handle
the concerns in the short run , Residential with Special Permit
conditions ? You could work with this until some sort of zon -
ing is adopted that will provide the two tiers of Residential .
G ive us something in the short _ run . Gerri stated that the Board
felt Ben was asking for something very specific though he was
phrasing it in very unspecific terms . nick said he felt that
there was not a deficiency in the Zoning Ordinance but that
t he deficiency was that there was not a Comprehensive Plan
available . One way to expedite this would be for the Town
B oard to hire a planner stated Krys .
Alex said there are others who are out there that have
been waiting even longer than the American Legion . Now we ' re
getting down to stifling growth in the Town said Dan . Ben
asked if this group each got a copy of the North Creek Master
P lan , everyone said yes . Ben said he understood the Board ' s
d iscomfiture with the Special Permit . He also agreed with Krys
t hat the land should come and go , and people should know what
they could do with the land and what they could not . What he
is asking is , is there something that could bridge them into
the future and to look at it as a bridge . If we put the Special
P ermit into use now it doesn ' t mean that it has to be part of
the Comprehensive Plan . The thing that is particularly con -
fusing to Ben is the broad range of the use of the social club .
( From Newhart ' s Lodge , the Legion , Masonic Temple , Conserva -
t ory , etc . ) His hopes are that people could identify their
concerns and then these limits could be stated in the Special
P ermit . The problem with the Special Permit said Dave is once
you ' ve made the legislative determination that this could be in
a particular area by permit you have a very hard time keeping
it out . Krys reiterated to Ben that large buildings concerned
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TOWN OF ULYSSES 5
P LANNING BOARD MEETING
MARCH 22 , 1993
h er , second uses down the road become very limited . Owners
w ould have a rational for use variance claiming hardship .
Could the size of the building be limited queried Krys ? Ben
said it didn ' t bother him .
David asked if the Board wanted to vote on each point
individually . They agreed . Point number one , B1 appropri -
ate for a social club . All were in favor . Point number two
B2 appropriate for a social club with a Special Permit to
stay open beyond 11 : 00P . M . Again , all were in favor . ( Budd
queried would outdoor activities be allowed ? It was decided it
w ould be allowed as it was in Residential . ) Point number three
n ot in a Residential Zone even by Special Permit under the
present ordinance . Discussion ensued . If you vote no on
this you won ' t even consider putting this in as a stop gap
measure queried Dan ? Does everyone understand this he asked ?
Everyone assented . Gerri asked if everyone says yes to this
they are saying no to the Special Permit . That ' s right said
D avid . Everyone voted yes but Dan . ( The vote was 6 to 1 on
point three . )
B en said he ' s very uncomfortable , and the Town may be
o n shaky ground when no action is taken . A decision is being
made in a sense . People should not be put on hold . Alex said
that he has a revised Zoning Ordinance that is just sitting
there collecting dust . There is a lot of pressure in his of -
fice .
B en asked for a definition of the social club . Krys
said we don ' t define most things . The distinction we have
come to is outdoor versus indoor , profit versus non - profit
said David . Krys stated that she really wanted to get away
from the distinction of profit versus non - profit , wondering
if that was a legitimate way to make a decision . David agreed
saying that it being based on tax status really wasn ' t a valid
d istinction for intensity of use . Ben said if we have a defin -
ition that applies to the Legion and Richard ' s then we ' re not
getting very far . David said that there are no definitions in
t he Zoning Ordinance . The basic problem is the Ordinance it -
self . You ' re asking for a special piece of legislation . Ben
said there seems to be a distinction between the Legion and
say a restaurant . David said , When the Town Board sent it back
to us and said okay look at the Zoning Ordinance , I had a real
problem with " Look at the Zoning Ordinance for the American
Legion " which is what Ben is now asking us to do . We came
back with where it is appropriate but you want us to say some -
h ow it ' s appropriate in Residential . Dick said there is not a
deficiency in the Zoning Ordinance that it is allowable in B2 .
It ' s when they become too big ( social club ) and want to erect
a building that it becomes an issue . So , it ' s not the club ,
hut the intended use that becomes the issue . Krys concurred
saying it ' s not the club but the definition of the use . David
said it ' s not the tax status it ' s what the impact is in the
n eighborhood .
K rys inquired whether the Planning Board would be receiv -
ing anything about the Pleasant Grove PUD . Alex said no , the
o riginal PUD was taken back , hut the material was left . They
didn ' t formally withdraw it , but they sat on it under the real -
ization the Town was having problems with PUDs legally . The 132
was something the Town was looking at . To disagree with Ben
t here was a legal brief submitted to the Town Board stating to
change zoning for the benefit of one individual is spot zoning
and that it would be pertinent to the Town Board to look at
3 '
TOWN OF ULYSSES 6
P LANNING BOARD MEETING
MARCH 22 , ]. 993
more than one spot . I remember the Town Board stating in the
P reamble to that B2 that there were two other spots they were
looking at , be it Halsey House that went in as a Special Permit
by the Board of Zoning Appeals and the Andre property ( Pleasant
G rove ) . Those were the two . At least there is a history al -
ready established . They have submitted an application . The
application does not establish the use , it ' s the approval of the
application that establishes the use stated Dave . They stop -
ped the process and then asked if they could get it in as a
B 2 , Alex said . He advised that they wait until after the
initial B2 ( Auble R2 ) then we ' ll look at this one . The Halsey
H ouse has been taken care of , so has the Auble and this one
h as been left in limbo . If he makes a formal request here
again we are responding to a single applicant so I told him
to wait as we were going to be looking at that anyway . There
is a documented history that here is a parcel we ' re going to
look at as a B2 . At the last meeting Tom Reitz said he ' d be
getting us information . Nothing has arrived . David suggested
that everyone meet with the Master Plan Committee on Tuesday
night , March 30th , to try and pull this all together . Then
the next Planning Board meeting will be two weeks from tonight .
The first and third Mondays of the month will be the regular
meeting nights for the Planning Board . ( It was decided by
consensus that it would be helpful to the public and the
B oard members to regularize meeting nights . ) The next meeting
is April 5 , 1993 ..
The meeting was adjourned at 9 : 45 P . M .