HomeMy WebLinkAbout2000-06-21TB 6 -21 -00
TOWN OF DRYDEN
SPECIAL TOWN BOARD MEETING
JUNE 2I, 2000
Board Members Present: Supv Mark. Varvayanis,. Ronald- Beek, Thomas Hatfield,_and_Deborah
Grantham
Absent: Charles Hatfield
Other Town Staff: Mahlon R. Perkins, Town Attorney
Others in attendance: Jim Kent Principal-Planner Clough, Harbour_ & Associates
Timothy R. Faulkner, Senior Traffic Engineer, Clough, Harbour
Laura C. Cassalia,_Project.Engineer,_Clough, Harbour._ &_Associates
Christopher A. Burns, Associated Principal, Clough, Harbour
Kristin-E. Sosnick - Planner_Clough, Harbour & Associates
Forrest Earl Principal Hydrogeologist, GeoLogic
Robert Hamer,..Delta_Engineers
John Stevens, Attorney for Lucente
7:35 p.m. Supv Varvayanis opened-meeting.
This is not a formal part of the SEQR process; this is not a board meeting, although we have
three board members here. This was a meeting_requested_by Mr.- Lucente so his. engineers could
have direct conversation with our engineers and hopefully get a better understanding of what is
expected ofthem. So people are. able to. hear_ what-is going on,- but ifyyou look-around the table
and do some quick math you can quickly understand that Mr. Lucente wants this meeting to be
as short as possible, so I am-not anticipating_ any input.from_thc_audience and_that_includes_board
members. If a fistfight breaks out I'll control it; otherwise you are here to act fairly and formally.
I would like everyone to introduce themselves and_when_they begin_talking.state their- names so
we can get everything on the tape and record it and with that.
John Stevens — I think-we should_ start.with_the handsome group. right over-there.-the best - dressed
group.
I am Jim Kent Principal -Planner _with_Clough, Harbour.
I am Tim Faulkner, Senior Traffic with C lough, Harbour.
Laura Cassalia, Project Engineer, Clough, Harbour
Chris Burns Senior Hydogeologist with Clough, Harbour
. Kristin_E.. Sosnicki, Planner Clough, Harbour
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John Stevens, Attorney for Lucent
Forrest Earl Vice President Principal Hydrogeologist, GeoLogic, NY mr
Bob Harper, Delta Engineers
Mark Varvayanis, Supervisor
Mahlon Perkins, Attorney for the town
John Stevens - So what do you-think, go right down the list?
Mark Varvayanis - Go right down the list, talk about them.
John Stevens - Start with Roman numeral-one. Readily available mapping. Robert that's-up to
you.
Robert Hamer - Actually I thought that was,
Forrest Earl - That's mine. What I have done and what we intend to do review the soil survey out
line the soils on sight. Apparent materials they derive_from_review specific-geologic maps from
the state bedrock maps,primary geology of New York Fingers Lakes sheets and geologic map of
New York. _ 1"
Robert Hamer - This is really straightforward -the information-is readly available.. Lthought it is
would be helpful just to kind of present the site specific information deriving the thirteen borings
in a little bit broader context with_ information that is readily_ available.
John Stevens - Ok, so is what he recited, I didn't understand half of what he recited but what he
recited, is that going to be sufficient-for-you, if he covers_it__that way?
Christopher Burns - Yes, I think that is the response.
Forrest Earl - Number two depth_of_the bedrock_ There wasn't-any bedrock _encountered_in the
boring some of which were advanced up to twenty feet. The sufacial geologic map of New York
indicates that farther up on Turkey Hill there may be bedrock -as- shallow as five feet, so in-terms
of an estimate my guess is less than fifty feet to bedrock.
Robert Hamer - Again if you reference some of_these.existing published maps you can-provide a
reason for us.
John Stevens - Three, depth ofground water_ defined- is_that-yours again Forrest?
Forrest Earl - That's still me.
John Stevens - Three is you, rock_n roll
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Forrest Earl - This one deals with the flow, flow direction. What I've done is just outlined local
topography a little bit better, what the local topography is.
Robert Harper - Beginning with number four or five?
Forrest Earl_ - I'm on number-three. The.fact that-it is situated-on-the northwest_ flank,_east_west
trending ridge. Fall Creek is about thousand feet northwest with an elevation 890, Turkey Hill
southeast of the site at about 1460 elevation_ distance 570 which would indicate ground level
flow in that direction according to topography map. You can get that from the site survey.
John Stevens - Is that what you want? Is that-the sort-of analysisyouu want in-this?
Christopher Burns - Yes, these first three comments were, there is information out there that
would support your cause without a whole lot ofeffort.
Forrest Earl - Four has to do with aquifer. There is a map prepared by Todd Miller which is also
mimicked on the Town of Dryden_ map, a.possible confined aquifer located _along-Fall Creek.
There is no shallow aquifer map that I'm aware of Again that is referenced material geologic
map site specific. There is thirteen-borings-up to.20 feet and-we-didn't want-to see any, soils
consistent with an aquifer.
John-Stevens - M if he references it to the Todd Miller map.
isTim Faulkner - Yes I would like to see the information incorporated.
John Stevens - Yes I understand. But-what-he's talked about-is. where you want-to see that?
Five
Forrest Earl - Ground water re- charges. We can-make a stab at-the change, Lhaven't.done that
yet I'm not quite sure why it needs to be done. I guess before I went to the length of making an
estimate of the change of recharge.
John Stevens - Why do we need that?
Timothy Faulkner_ — Scoping says_ impact_on_shallow water-taking-and including-amount of
recharge to ground water.
Forrest Earl - That can be done.
Timothy Faulkner - I am looking for a desktop study that attempts. to look at what is pre
development and post - development
John Stevens - Six, suspicions regarding the existence of toxic- waste.
Is this yours?
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Forrest Earl - Not really, I can address what we did in terms of the soil boring which comes up
later under number 10. We screened the recovered soil_ samples from. borings. with_a lionization
detector I can give you the model number and all that stuff. How it is calibrated ,what the actual
readings were.
John Stevens - Is that going to help with-this, if_there was no toxic waste found in-those borings?
If it was done by the ionization screenings.
Christopher-Burns - Well numbers 6 number_ 7 number_ 8 kind--of-tie together.. The fact that
refuse existed on site, the report is just very unclear as to whether that still exits. What is the
extent of it on site The DEIS referred_to.a_phase one.which_in_here there not_a phase one so
someone is taking exception to the language there are elements of a phase one that aren't all that
complicated to do but it would lend a_lot to the document. in-terms of further_ understanding the
history of the site.
Forrest Earl - So when you say that you_mean_historic_ air _photos?
Chris Burns - Sure
Forrest.Earl - Not going to plan-on _seeing- anymore fire insurance maps or anything like, that.
Chris Burns - Right
John Stevens - So historic photos, any-thing-else in-phase one that-you can_tell us?
Chris Burns - If you are familiar with AST in phase one, I am sure you are.
John Stevens - I'm not, so tell me.
Chris Burns - There are, let's put_it_this way our _scoping_ documents _didn'_t_say you- needed to do
a Phase one. So from my prospective you need to one of two things. Not say you did a phase
one or if you are going to say you did a phase one_thenyouu need-to do it and that includes
looking at things like ownership history of the site through time, looking at historical area
photographs, you did the day to_ day search.--Obliviously- you-did the borings, _but it is one-or the
other.
John Stevens - So if we say we didn't do a phase one -site investigation are you then_going.to say
if we submit another DEIS we should do a phase one site investigation? That's the question,
why screw around?
Chris Burns - Lwill say this, we didn't tell you to do a phase.one but I think_the history of-the site
with particular regard to the existence of the refuse is poorly documented or presented. So if you
have the information and present. it more clearly that would-be-helpful, if you_need_to do more
homework to help the reader understand how the site came to be, when refuse was placed is that
refuse is gone today, if not where is it? Those are the things Lam_looking for. ,
Is
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. Forrest Earl - There is very limited resource on a site that is in a middle of no where like that.
John Stevens - NO it's Varna.
Forrest Earl - I meant historically. Air photos and property history we can look at to try to get a
sense of what the development history of the site has been.
Chris Burns - Interviews with-the site owner_ somebody has to know how that site came.to be as
it is.
John Stevens - Interviewing this owner_ may not be a great idea.
Chris Burns - I am saying, that would be a standard component of phase one. So the things I'm
asking for are not a Herculean. effort but we just need more detail.
John Stevens — If it is not a big deal, lets do it. Seven identification of fill materials was
indemnified with individual borings, but there was no attempt-to map or locate. So you want a
mapping of the individual borings, as that what you want to do?
Chris Burns. - I want to know is the refuse confined-to one corner of the site or is it site wide.
Forrest Earl - I think we might be mixing apples and oranges a little bit. There is refuse on the
40 site and there is. fill material in the borings- but- the refuse on-the site is not necessary fill material
in the borings. Some of the fill material we saw on the boring appeared to be more in a sense
that it was dust reworked natural .deposit._pulled. down-to make a flatter area then-what was
previously there. We can take from the boring logs and generate a isopleths map of fill thickness
and a site but that is still not going-to necessarily be the same.thing as where is the_refuse on the
surface of the site.
Chris Burns - That wasn't clear in the report.
John Stevens - So what do you want? You want a map of where the refuse is on the site and you
want the borings....
Chris Burns - If we are distinguishing between_the refuse and-the fill if they are together or
separate, maps of those would be helpful.
John Stevens - Well-there is junk on-top of site and-then-there is stuff that has been-moved.
Chris Burns - I understand that but it is not clearly presented.
John Stevens - So you want a better indication of where it is, what it is and-then the same with
the fill.
is Chris Burns - Right
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John Stevens - Okay 0
Chris Burns - I am not saying you have to do more borings you just have to process-the. data you
have a little more clearly.
John Stevens - We just did seven, Okay. Eight Same thing-we just talked about. So we can
answer six, seven and eight by just more and better description. Pond scum analyze The world
revolves around pond scum analysis.
Any problem doing pond scum analysis? Do you have rubber boots and everything?
Forrest Earl — yea we got all that. We have a barge we can-put-out there.
Jim Kent - This question is you took a sample.
Forrest Earl That I wasn't involved in.
Jim Kent - Somebody took a sample and it is not clear why it was taken, the selection of the
chemicals, or the chemicals that were analyzed, why you-only analyzed one-chemical.
John Stevens - We have a new person here.
Jim Kent- Let me just tie this. in. From -the aerial_ photographs- in.appendix B of the one report, I
looked at it and it looked like that pond was not there always. It was created sometime along the
line. I do point out that if you are going-to _ analyze for contaminates in the pond-you-might-want
to look at the sediment too. Or justify why you are not.
John Stevens -Now as I understand it-you-can-test-for _ avast array of stuff. What_ do you want
tested? Is this an exclusive list this semivolatile organic compounds, pesticides, PCBs and heavy
metals. It doesn't sound too exclusive, but_is_that. exclusive,. in other words....
Jim Kent — That is fairly inclusive. You tested for volatile organic compounds, which is probably
80 out of 240 possible chemicals that-could-have been tested for.
John Stevens — Yeah, what do you want to test for?
Jim Kent - Well, it is not necessarily up to me what to decide what should be tested for.
John Stevens - But you are the one that.is_going to reject it or accept it so lets find out.
Jim Kent - Alright, someone either needs to justify why only a certain class of compounds were
tested for or the testing should be more inclusive.
Forrest Earl — If the testing includes this that's pretty much it. Once we get beyond what you
guys have here then we are into a bunch of exotic for the most part. 0
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Jim Kent - This covers most of the toxins that are out there.
John Stevens - Okay so this isn't a big deal. (No). Okay we can-move on.
We are rolling right along. Sniff test for VOC's.
Robert Hamer - That I addressed_and_we can-address your-questions here, no problem..
John Stevens - So we will do the boring logs and all that good stuff. Water resources. Who am I
in now? You Bob?
Bob Hamer - For some of them yes.
John Stevens — Okay. Who is the hydrogeologist? You are the hydrogeologist.
#1 Erosion control plan. What are we going to do here?
Bob Hamer - Well we did provide a plan, I_think_they are just-looking for more information like
a construction schedule, phase in schedule.
Laura. Cassalia — Yes, more information-on-erosion-control-features. Maintenance scheduling
during construction, after construction
• Bob Hamer.- It is pretty straightforward,. Ijust want. to make sure that- we are going to use the
DEC guidelines. They are pretty much standard.
Laura Cassalia - Yes
John Stevens - Is that okay if we use those guidelines?
Laura Cassalia - Yes
John Stevens — Okay, what else are we going to use?
Bob Hamer - That is pretty much it.
John Stevens - Okay so if we follow guidelines is that going to be kosher?
Laura Cassalia - Yes
John Stevens - Discuss the results of the storm. water run off analysis. Did we do a storm water
runoff analysis?
Robert Hamer - Yes we did, and we did do a design. summary.
John Stevens - What more do you need for this?
•
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Laura Cassalia - I believe, you should provide more information in the narrative as the results of O
your analysis, calculations.
John Stevens - Would you like a matrix of some kind? I hear that is a good- word to use. Would
that be helpful?
Laura Cassalia -A table would be sufficient. Pre- development_ flows post development flows,
description of the pond, how it was sized, and just more information.
John Stevens - Why the pond-is the size it-is-and-all that stuff. Is_that a problem Robert?
Robert Harper - No
Laura Cassalia - Along with that how the runoff-will be handled_on_the south-side of_the sight.
John Stevens - That's the hill, the road, Pleasant?
Robert Harper - Basically swail, catch-basins.
John Stevens - Okay, south side.
Laura -Cassalia - So you can show it_ on_a_plan_or_inyouur.narrative. is
John Stevens - Show it on a plan and then narrated the plan. Does that sound better?
Robert Harper — Sure.
John-Stevens - Alright. Three, erosion-control-blankets. What-did-you want-with-this. We didn't
know what you wanted.
Laura Cassalia - More detail on-how that _hill_isgoing. to- be-maintained and—vegetated—during
construction and after to establish vegetation.
Bob Harper - I think it goes back-to the DEC guidelines.-They have some pretty standard
requirments.
John Stevens - If he did it to the DEC guidelines, are you familiar with the DEC guidelines? If
he described it per the DEC guidelines that would be Okay? All right. Anything else that we
have missed? Alternatives for providing. stabilized construction-entrance should be evaluated.
What does that mean? Oh. I know. Go ahead.
Laura Cassalia -- Detail the construction entrance for that site?
Bob Harper - Do we have one? No But basically we could. 0
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• John Stevens - How hard is that going to be?
Bob Hamer — Again, it goes back to the guildlines.
Laura Cassalia - Showing it a plan and how is going to be maintained.
John. Stevens - How about this grade on_a bend_will_result. in poor_ sight distance. and-potential
hazards for winter driving? What does that mean?
Laura Cassalia — You can probably save. that_for_the traffic portion of it.
John Stevens - Okay so that's a pass and that is because the entrance road has grades up to, so
that I understand.
The entrance road has grades up to 10 % and this grade on bend will result in poor-sight
distance and potential hazards for winter driving. Is it because of the grade?
Bob Hamer - Because of the grade in the winter_.up and down, that's the main. concern.
John Stevens - Okay you have a grade. Now are there any grades on the bend?
Bob Hamer - Yes. I think as far as the. bends- it_might_get_confusing. If you look-at-the site plan it
shows a really tight radius but then when we get a grading plan it smoothes that radius out
considerably. So I_think. as far as the_ sight distance goes,_ we can-describe what. it-is and-handle
that....
John-Stevens - Okay we are here, so lets do this now.. What do you need. to show to be satisfied
that the grade bend isn't a potential hazard to other drivers?
Tim Faulkner_ - Basically distance. analysis like you_did.for the_main entrances. You show the
ones you did for the entrances is exactly what was required.
John Stevens - Are there any defined_ parameters for this?
Tim Faulkner - It is all in the ASTM manual.
John Stevens - So if we do it to conform-to. the ASTM_ manual that would be okay?
Tim Faulkner - Yes exactly what you did for the other sight distance sight calculations.
Looking at the 10% grade?
John Stevens - Is that something you can do Robert?
Robert Hamer - Yes
John Stevens - Okay, done. So we are happy now with the entrance road grade bend will result
• in poor sight distance if we do what you want us to do. Now we are back to areas that are not
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designated for development are to be undisturbed. Examine if the current ground cover is O
sufficient. Sufficient for what?
Laura Cassalia - Vegetation that is there to stabilize the bank. There was some discussion in the
narrative regarding the condition of the sight and erosion problems that exist, so either state what
the vegetation state is now, is it appropriate and sufficient and if not,. how will those areas be
treated.
John. Stevens - Okay but if the vegetative. stuff-that's there now is holding the bank-now it.must
be sufficient, or don't we do things that way?
Laura Cassalia - That is an analysis you_ are- going_to_have to-make.
John Stevens - Oh, Okay I see.
Robert Harper - So what exactly do we want, because we do have steep slopes on the north face
of the project.
John. Stevens - See what you are going-to find_as. Lunderstand_it,_everybody jump on_me_if you
feel like it, but we are removing a Lot of the water that would normally flow down these
embankments anyway and rechanneling it. -
Bob Hamer - This is something we took a look at, is how much flow is currently going to the
pond as it exist. These residents complained _of.flooding_and_Lthink what has happened_over the
years as changes have been made, more water was allowed to flow in the north direction, so what
we have done here this line basically represents _the- flow that-is-going to the pond-as it-exists
today. What we are planning on doing when we get done and I think we stated this in the report,
is use this road as a barrier with_ catch-basins-to try to. get-more-flow to the pond-so in-fact it will
benefit residents along the road. Again this is a very steep slope and it is pretty stable as it exits
today.
Laura Cassalia - So the northern_area_.ofthe_property is-going-to-be undisturbed ?_
Bob Hamer - Yes,there will be some minor grading changes in there, but the majority will
remain.
John Stevens - When you say majority,_ what- percentage?
Bob Hamer - Probably 70% will remain undisturbed. In those areas that we will have to regrade
certainly we will look at erosion blankets or_ whatever _is necessary to stabilize that.
John Stevens - Now hearing that do you want him to describe that and put that into the report.
That 70% of that will remain undisturbed-and that the percentage of the water that normally
flows down this hill is now going to be flowing towards this pond? 0
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Laura Cassalia - That should be clarified and put in more detail. Also the condition, getting back
. to number four about whether the current ground cover is sufficient. From what I understand
from your report, right now it is not sufficient and erosion is occurring on that slope.
Bob Hamer - Not on that slope, but on the rest of area where it_ is bare.
John Stevens - Not on the slope?
Bob Hamer. - Not on the slope. This slope here is well. stabilized; there is lots of-vegetation. A
lot of the site is bare and there is a logging operation is taking place so there is some erosion
happening. place. Also I need-to point out that the embankment_ here has failed. Someone put a
12 -inch pipe in and it took one storm to wash that out. So there areareas where it is bare and is
some erosion taking place. But on-this slope- here which-is a steeper_ slope it is stable.
John Stevens - So would it help you if Robert said those places that fail will drain in some
particular. direction. In. other words he-says there. has - been_failur_e here, but_it. is- obvious from this
this is all going to drain toward the pond now. You want a description of that.
Laura Cassalia - It just needs to be clarified.
John Stevens - Okay. You need clarification of the existing information. Is there other
information that you need to answer this question.. Are there other - standards that-you, can-recite
• or plants per inch or anything?
Laura Cassalia - No
John. Stevens - Okay. Shallow ground-water- table was presented-as a potential -concern.- Did we
handle that Robert?
Robert Hamer - I believe that was...
Forrest C. Earl - That was back to me.
John-Stevens - If we followed. the. US Dept of. Agriculture. and Soil Conversation-Service guide to
Conversation Planting on Critical areas for New York would that be okay?
Laura Cassalia - I have never seen that book..
Forrest Earl - (shows book) it is one Soil Conversation gave me yesterday.
John Stevens - So it has to be at least five years behind.
Forrest Earl - It is undated,for whatever reason. All I can do is go to their office and ask what
they have.
0 Bob Hamer - DEC just updated their information a few years ago.
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John Stevens - OK, do you have access to that? 0
Bob Harper - Yes, they do talk about different-types of education-and what is there and-what can
be done. Look at existing conditions and future conditions.
John Stevens - So you will relate it then,_ your_ analysis,. to. the DEC pamphlet-of regulations.
And that will help you in your analysis?
Laura Cassalia - Yes
John- Stevens. - So do you know. what- you-need _to-do with-this-Robert?- Describe. where. there is
erosion where the water is going to flow so she has a better view of where this water is going and
what_is being eroded. Where the water-is-going to flow within. the project and-what effect that
has on the areas that are eroding now and those areas that we are going to disturb on the
embankment, how do we plan-to _ take _ care._ ofthat ,_what_cover-wilL_be_planted_to cover_ the disturb
areas.
Robert Harper - We will just address it, per_these guidelines,_ if there is erosion_ blankets
needed....
John Stevens - But_I_think that-is what_she_wants._ She-wants. an_ analysis- ofall_ the -various areas
of this project. OK. Shallow ground water table- that's you Forrest. is
Forrest Earl_- That is mentioned- in_the_DEIS_ and_tobe_honest-with-you I_am_not_quite_sur_e_what
anybody meant when the wrote it. So I don't know exactly how respond to the question. If there
are specific_ issues let me know.
John Stevens - Shallow ground_water_table_was presented-as a_potential_concern. Ok Can we
pass on that for a minute? So we come back to five? Provide a plan and description of the pond
outfall and the channel -receiving the _discharge_ and _redevelopment. _ Robert-the pond_is yours.
Robert Harper - I planned on doing a description and also provide some details as to what we
are proposing for an-outlet structure_and_so forth.
John Stevens - So what you will do is a more detailed drawing of the pond. And that will help
you?
Laura Cassalia —Yes, and that also ties back-into- number-2- describing the pond_ sufficiently. sized
for post development.
Deb Grantham - Will you also describe how the storm water will be treated in the pond? That
was part of the scoping.
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Robert Harper - What type of treatment are you looking for? We are going to have detention
time.
Deb Grantham - Water quality.
Robert Harper — So, I guess I am unclear. We will be talking about the freeboard retention time,
settling time and so -forth.
John Stevens - What else do you need to know?
Deb Grantham - How you are going to treat the first flush
Robert Harper — For post development right?
Deb Grantham - yes
John Stevens - How do you treat the first flush?
Laura Cassalia - Temp. changes in the water.
John Stevens - Is that required in-the DEC?
• Laura Cassalia - I believe there is guildlines in it.
John Stevens - Ok
Robert Harper. - There are recommended_guidelines,_I_think _what-they are looking for_ is a grit oil
separator, basically it is a two part structure that will separate that first flush out.
John Stevens - How costly is that?
Robert Harper - It can be costly.
Deb Grantham — Well, I think we need what will-do the job.
John Stevens - In other words what we have to do put this structure in place so the first time it
rains if we don't get any oil in that water. And how much does one of those structures cost?
Robert Harper - 10 to 15 thousand.
Laura Cassalia - There are other ways to do it in construction.
John Stevens - What are the other ways?
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Laura Cassalia - The way you design the pond the sedimentation in the, you basically have a
reserve in the bottom of the pond that-settles out and captures-the first flush-so that-you. don't get
the temperature fluctuation in the water quality.
John. Stevens - Do you have any suggested_ designs_thatyouu know of
Laura Cassalia - It should be in that DEC.
Robert_Harner_ - I_am a little unclear_on_these._That wilLwork_good_for_the sentiments but-the oils
won't be collected. They will remain on the top and then find their way out. I am a little unclear
as to whether_ it-is required.
Laura Cassalia - Sand filter-type structure._ Y_ou.just. need-to address the water_ quality issues
along with the increase in run off.
John Stevens - The question-is we are-trying-to find _out_what_sort_ofwater_quality you-want. Do
you want drinking water coming out of this pond? I don't know what sort of water quality, you
as the reviewer of this are looking. for._ We can_give.you a_description_of the. water but what-about
the water quality. Is there some target you are looking for or that you think should come out of
this pond?
Laura Cassalia - There is guidelines on-it
Chris Burns - The common sense answer to that is that it doesn't want to be any worse than it
currently is. And by introducing- a_large_ pavement_ areas_ and_ significant-number _of_cars_and oil
discharges the potential is for a impact that you end up with a degraded condition so you are
going to have to propose a mitigation_ measure _that_prevents.the_worsening_of that-condition.
John Stevens - So Robert, is there an analysis by per square foot of parking area as to how much
oils or pollutes, discharge off-that?
Robert Harner - There is data on....
John- Stevens - So if there is an_ analysis _of_how.much_is_going_to_come off-of-this and-it's below
any minimums that DEC talk about or recommends is that still a problem?
Laura Cassalia - It is a pre and post condition.
John Stevens - Right I see. So we need to know the level of contaminants pre and contaminates
post, _is .that what you want,. a comparison-of-the-two?- Are-we doing any analysis on-the pond
water.
Forrest Earl - A quick and dirty way is to check with_the_ Town-of Cortlandville because they
made Tops put in a big retention pond when they put in a new Tops in Cortland and it is right
next to the water- works. 40
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John Stevens - That's Cortlandville though.
Forrest Earl - But. it's going to follow DEC type guide lines and _it_that .case they are adjacent to
municipal water supply wells for the City of Cortland, so they are going to be pretty strick about
what they require. If you want to seethe types of things. that- go into it, that_ might. be_ a place to
start.
Robert. Hamer - I just want to be sure -that if-we do propose a oil_grit separator,and_we can back
that study up with some data that is going to be acceptable,
Chris Burns - I._don'_t think we can_say,__that.. This session-here isn't to talk _about,_for_us_to make
technical comments and to comment on whether that solution is acceptable. It is just to make
sure there is enough_information_in_the. document to review it.--So if you are going to propose a
mitigation strategy make sure there is enough information for a layman to adequately review it.
John Stevens - So that is six. Along that line,-The DEIS discusses the removal__of brush and
overgrowth from channel but fails to include plans for stabilization. You want to know what we
are going to do along the creek that is created_there-
Robert Hamer - I have some details on it.
• John Stevens — Ok. Wastewater _ generation _handled_through_the_local sewer-system.- An-analysis
from the local sewer system should help, right? How many gallons and all that good goop, how
many gallons would be put m_the system_are_.easdy handled_by_the municipal_sewer_system
without any problems. You want a gallon analysis and all that sort of stuff. Right?
Kristin Sosnicki_— Right. From what I read_Lbelieve. there are-two gravity lines. for the .pump
station? We should analyze the pump station for the capacity whether or not it can handle the
additional -flows from the sight.
Robert Hamer - I believe we had something from the town engineer that there was adequate
capacity.
John Stevens - Yes we do, we have it now, but they are not going to approve or disapprove
anything at this meeting. We have the analysis.
Kristin Socnicki - Just a letter saying you could possibly tie in_it_didn't sound_ infinitive to me.
John Stevens - We now has something. Something additional. We have been busy little beavers
here. Ok, so the next.
Robert Hamer - Want to come back to number five?
0 John Stevens - Yes
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Jim Kent - The issue I was concerned about was on page 6 talked about to protect themselves
from potential liability concerning contamination of local ground water, including waste bearing
and depth on site the project sponsor conducted a number of investigations including sub-
surface borings, a pond scum analysis, reveal toxic targeting report, and sniff.test. Again this
kind of ties into some of my previous comments, but no explanation about the sniff test. No
reason why that pond scum analysis was collected. Poor description of what was fill. verse
refuse. No testing of either soil or ground water for contaminates. It really comes back to we
don't know whether. the shallow ground water- has been-impacted by the refuse on site.
Forrest Earl - Okay, so how do we resolve that?
Jim Kent. - I_guess the simple way is based_on_the work you-have already done if you can, it was
never clear to me in any of these documents how much refuse is on site and what that refuse
consist of If the fill is natural earth materials that's -not a concern from an environmental
contamination standpoint, but if that refuse-
Forrest Earl. - If it is uranium_ that-we have to worry about it.
Jim Kent - If it contains materials that could potentially impact the ground water table we need to
do some ground well water testing. So I_guess the second option-which would be more involved
and detailed, would involve going back out there and doing some type of testing of ground water
unless you can support based on-the information_ that you_have._That's not necessary
John Stevens - So based on the history and the materials that are found there and the materials
that are found in the fill and the. borings you_can_probably get_a_pretty good idea of what
materials are there. That will help us decide if we need to do something about the pond water.
Jim Kent - Right now the studies that_have_been cited- in_here_don_t answer the question.
John Stevens - Okay, we need to inventory the junk that is out there. Inventory the junk, look at
the fill and if it is old bedsprings_ in-there-that-doesn't-have asbestos in them.... Ok.
Jim Kent - Could be simple, could involve more work.
John Stevens - You know what is needed now Forrest?
Forrest Earl - Yes
John Stevens - I don't want you-to approve-or-disapprove but-is this for the sewer is this what you
are looking. The Varna sewage pump station to keep this flow and that flow,has this many
gallons? Is that the sort of thing you want?
Jim Kent - It is a start. Does it talk about capacity and so forth?
Robert Hamer - Is additional information. going to be needed, are we set with the wastewater?
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John Stevens - Well I don't know. They are not going to tell us if it is sufficient. But I think it is
along the lines of what they are looking for.
Laura Cassalia - You need to look at what the existing pump does. What it handles. What you are
adding to it. How is going to work when you add it
Jim Kent - Again it is pre and post. He is giving you information on what it is. As you add this
many per unit should cause no trouble.
Jim Ken - It is an assumption based on a Tomkins County average. Confirm that you are
generating the average.
John Stevens - We haven't built it yet.
Jim Kent - There are ways to project that by units. There are standards you-can. go to._It is fairly
simple.
John Stevens - So we need to figure out what they are going to generate per unit in an apartment
complex as opposed to Tompkins County would generate.
Tim Faulkner - Compare it is less OK, if not we need to go back to Town Engineers..
• Jim Kent - They you are going to talk about mitigation.
John Stevens - Only if it won't handle it._Ifit-will you have no problem.
Mark Varayanis - It has tons of capacity, so it should be easy to prove.
John Stevens - We have to distinguish-units apartments units opposed to people_in_T_ompkins
County, that is what we are looking at right?
Jim Kent - It boils down to it has x_gallons of capacity. Its using x_of that. capacity._ You are
adding so much to it. Is there still capacity?
John Stevens - They say using the Tompkins County average 170 units would-generate 30 quarts
or 40 thousands GPD which can be accommodated by capacity of the main sewer and pump
station.
Jim Kent - But you only have the one to. validate that. you are the same or lower than the
Tompkins County average.
John Stevens - Numbers about how much-sewage the apartments generate.
0 John Stevens - Open spaces now. The location of the easement for the recreation right of way on
the site plan including the vegetative buffer.. Now the first-question is, if there is no easement for
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the recreation right of way because it is all being donated with this project then we don't have to O
worry about it right?
Kristin Socnicki - There are claims in the EIS that there would be an easement for this recreation
that we have to connect into the larger trail.
John Stevens - But if he doesn't do that then we don't have to worry about it.
Kristin Sosnicki - If he is not providing the trail no, but if the, in here it is used as part of the
good of the public project.
John Stevens - But if he took it away then there would-be less public good to the project.
Kristin Sosnicki — You'd have to modify. Would there be a reason why he wouldn't connect into
the larger trail? There is plans fora larger county trail.
Jim Kent - The point is that apparently it is referenced as something being done for the good of
the project and if.that is the case it needs to be shown -and delineated. If it's not then. it's not.
John Stevens - It is part of the project. It is 15 -foot wide easement. Are there regulations or
something from the DEC that tells us what-sort of vegetative buffer needs to be here?
Kristin Sosnicki — Again, there was a claim that there would be a vegetative buffer so that should
be decribed again.. And what the county is doing- too for the trail-so it connects in_nicely.. 40
Deb Grantham — There is a Green Ways Coalition manual on trail development that you can get
a copy of from the Ithaca Tompkins. Co. Transportation _that has. some standards that are
guidelines for developing trails and I think that is what you need.
John Stevens - So the question-is, you-don't-know of any regulations of.that DEC concerning
vegetative buffers for recreational rights of way.
Kristin Sosnicki - I do not know.
John Stevens — Okay, we need to describe what we are going to do.
Jim Kent - It is more of a safety concern. If you have a fifteen - foot. hedgerow, people, may
conceive that as a unsafe condition because you can't see....
Kristin Sosnicki - But there doesn't_ need_ to be a. actually there.does, it would kind of
delineate the side of the greenway.
Jim Kent - If it is a two foot hedgerow to the public. space of.the_ apartment complex.
J
Kristin Sosnicki — It can be beneficial. both ways.
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John Stevens - What I am looking for are regulations or something that you can't point us to so
we don't miss anything. Transportation. There is no physical-description of-the existing. roadway
network. Robert you have done roads until they come out your ears.
Robert Harper - I think there was description but I_think_I_need_to pull it out. Unlimited. access
highways, talk about the lane widths, and just put it in one spot.
Jim Kent - Shoulder widths, where parking located. Those types of-things.
John Stevens - Would it help if he did a map of it?
Jim Kent — No just. a physical. description because there is only two main roadways within the
area.
Robert Hamer - We are talking. about_ 366 and Mt-Pleasant Rd.
John Stevens - There is no analysis of the future No Build traffic without the complex condition.
What are you looking for here, what does that. mean?
Tim Faulkner - When we look at a project when we look into the future we look at what the
impacts are with and without the project. You. have the existing conditions,. but in the future if
is the project is not built you are going to have some change in the traffic conditions some small
growth or whatever it is going to be and you- compare your-future build to your-future no build.
It is basically pre - development to post development.
John-Stevens - Now you understand_ that. as it stands this.project is an eight -year plan-and do you
want it done when the project, didn't happen and end of project. Okay.
Tim Faulkner - Right, at the end of-eight years.
Robert Harper - Would it is helpful to have the numbers in more of a table form?
Tim Faulkner - Either that or a little diagram with-the roadway shows left turn, right turn.
Robert Harper - I think a lot of these questions deal with my assumptions and they were in a Lot
of different places as to the movements and so -forth.
Jim Kent - If you just had a map that showed Rt 366 and that, and you have the driveways and
left, rights ect. One place where I can look at it, for the existing future build, future no build and
the distribution of traffic.
Robert Hamer - Since the increase is so small can-we look .at.the three, five and eight year-plan?
isTim Faulker - If that is what you want to do. It is just creating more work for yourself.
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Jim Kent - SEQR only cares about full build out rate. That is what you have to look at. Q
John Stevens - Eight years no build and eight years build. I didn't understand number three, I
didn't know if you wanted we say it is going to take eight years to build. Do you want to know
what we are building each stage?
Tim Faulker — No, just at the end of.eight years. The time of completion which would be eight
years from now.
Jim Kent - Eight years is irrelevant. If it takes twelve, it is the full. build out. You stated-in the
document it is going to phased in over eight years so the estimated time of completion is eight
years from today.
John Stevens - So what do you want?
Tim Faulker - What the project is going to be at the end. of_eight_years. What the traffic condition
is going to be.
John Stevens - Okay, the future analysis of the traffic needs to be performed for the estimated
time of completion.
Tim Faulkner - I think it was done for 2001. or 2002. There are six additional. years of
background growth that would be included in that analysis. 0
John Stevens - So that is actually going to be the everything at-the end of eight-years, including
all the outside traffic. How hard is that? Background growth rate of traffic, that's just -what do
you need there?
Tim Faulkner - Talk with the DOT find out-what-the growth-rate is on route 366, whether it is
1% 2 %, 3% multiply that out.
Robert Hamer - You will accept_ data from-several-years?
Tim Faulkner - Yes, and look at the growth rate.
John Stevens - Needs to be a clearly defined distribution plan, assumption that was used to
develop this plan needs to be stated.
Jim Kent - Your map showed traffic turning. left to right. How did-you arrive, at the
assumptions, most of the business is located down here. That's why people are going to go left,
access to the roadway network, stuff like that.
John Stevens - Trip generation needs to be based on peak hour of adjacent street traffic.
Tim Faulkner — And that's peak hour generator. i
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Robert Harper — I have a question about that. We looked at it both ways and then we took the
higher of the two values so we would actually generate more traffic. than if we did it with what
you are recommending. So we can go back and reduce the number of trip generations based on
peak hour of adjacent street traffic.
John Stevens - Traffic flows past the entrances. You want this end of project or each stage of
project?
Tim. Faulkner - Past. the entrances would be what traffic is flowing past where. the proposed
entrances are today. There is no analysis needed and future no builds would be no analysis.
Then what they would be in the future with the entrances there.
John Stevens - So what you want is, what it is now and what it is at project completion.
Tim Faulkner — If-you look at the scoping. documents, it's exiting_ conditions, nine year, back
ground, conditions without the complex. Nine year with the complex. Those are the three
analyses.
Robert Hamer - Yes, but we are. still- on_seven_right? I guess Lama little confused. We did do
turning movement counts for Mt. Pleasant and Rt. 366 intersection and if I understand this right
you are asking me to use the turning. count_numbers.verses the DOT numbers._ Is- that _correct?
Tim Faulkner - Yes, because I noticed one count you were using was from 1996. You are only
supposed to look back three years worth_o£ data. That _would_ put- it back to 1997. So Lthought
the data from the turning movements you count the arrival and distributions past those entrances
from your turning movement counts, because you-have a couple of driveways there where you
are not going to lose much traffic.
Robert Hamer-- The counts that we have are for 1998 now and-they are due to be counted-again
this year, so talking with the DOT they would prefer that we would use their results and increase
them to get to current levels. The idea-being-that the peak_might_not happen-when-we took the
count from 7:00 to 9:00 or 4:00 to 6:00 so what we did in our analysis we took the higher of the
two and in. some cases it was the 1998 count- with that_inflated_rate for growth-and-.in-other times
it was our observed counts last year.
John Stevens - So do you want him to delineate what was from-their count and the DOT_ count?
Tim Faulkner - Yes
John Stevens — How hard is that Robert?
Tim Faulkner - Just stating how you arrived at those counts.
• John Stevens - Do you understand what he wants now?
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Robert Harper - Yes
John Stevens - Is there anything else you want here?
Tim Faulkner - No
John Stevens - So where were we? Number-8
analysis, if traffic flow maps were provided.
TB 6 -21 -00
It would be helpful in the review of the traffic
Robert Harper. - It is basically pulling-it together-so somebody can-look at it and say ok.this is
what he did.
John Stevens - You are going to do that?
Robert Harper - Yes
John Stevens - Ok, because I had.done on-that, Growth-and character of community and
neighborhood, comprehensive study of demographics. What we have obtained is a study one
mile three miles and five miles is that-what you want?
Kristin Sosnicki - One mile, three miles and five miles. How big is Varna itself?
John Stevens - There aren't any hamlet lines.. Anybody have any idea? Do we know how big
Varna is.
Mark Varvayanis - Do Varna residence care to comment on-that?
Kristin Sosnicki - What I was looking for was easily obtainable from the county showing
projections. You could get it from the MPO._ The.ML'O has it because they have to do
projections. Ithaca, Tompkins County Transportation Council. They should have it. Go talk to
Fernando.
John Stevens - They have a demographic map?
Kristin Sosnicki - Yes that is part of their agenda. They are supposed to keep up to date
projections.
John Stevens - Okay, so that would be okay if_we did_ a_ comprehensive study like that? Relate
that to the project?
Kristin Sosnicki - Yes
John Stevens - You just want us lay that out-and. relate to the project somehow?
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Kristin Sosnicki - I would like a matrix. You could do like 1990, 2000, 2010. Matrix would be
nice, then a little description of it, saying what the community is going to look like.
John Stevens - We don't know who we are going to rent to. Okay this something we can do. The
applicable sections of the Town of Dryden land use plan-and zoning ordinance should be
included in the appendix. Is there a Dryden land use plan? There's a Zoning Ordinance. You
mean the comprehensive plan. That we have. What is the 1.968 study?
Kristin Sosnicki - That is the comprehensive plan.
John-Stevens - The Dryden general.plan_that was never adopted you mean? If_it was never
adopted, is it still relevant?
Jim Kent - It is still relevant.
John Stevens - Okay. If the ordinance and-the land. use plan_ don't agree, we should point that out
to you too?
Kristin Sosnicki — Yes, with a explanation. how you got to your calculations.
John Stevens - You want the calculations, you don't want us to explain why the Town Board
adopted a zoning.
SKristin Sosnicki - No, I don't think-that is my issue.
John Stevens - Recalculate the density of development allowed or clarify the calculations. In
other words, that is all part of_what you were talking about. here.
Kristin Sosnicki - Yes if you give me a copy of the comp plan section and show how you arrived
at the numbers, per the zoning ordinance.
John Stevens - Economic analysis showing the demand on fire, police, water, sewer, buses
versus the tax benefit. Analysis showing the 170 units would have little or no impact. on-dollar
amount of contracts that the Town of Dryden has with the fire departments would that be useful
from-the Town_ Supervisor?
Mark Varvayanis - He asked for that, I. didn't think. that was what you were looking for.
John Stevens — But that's one of the things in here.
Kristin Sosnicki - As Laura said it is a beginning.
John Stevens - What do you need us to do, analyze the capacity of each of the fire departments?
Kristin Sosnicki - How high are the buildings and what height-can-the fire department ladder go
. to? Is there going to be a demand for more equipment more firefighters?
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Kristin Sosnicki - Do you have 911?
John Stevens - Yes, we do have 911
Laura Cassalia - Address the capacity through 911 and their ability .....
John Stevens - Ok. Fire Departments. Additional training.
Jim Kent - I think the larger issue is this. There is a claim that there is a significant fiscal benefit
to the town. That has to be better analyzed in.terms of the cost benefit.
John Stevens - The percent change in the local units, sewer units, assessments, if it went down
31 %, that would be useful to you.
Jim Kent - If in fact the town needs to make significant. infrastructure improvements as a result
of this development, are they in fact off -set by the taxes the town will gain and the other sources
of income. It is a pretty simple-analysis really, and_it_ falls- out- of_some of the other-analysis that
are done regarding the pump station improvements. If those things don't have to be done maybe
you are showing a benefit.
John Stevens - We show a decrease in-everyone's sewer and_.water_bill by 31 %.
Jim Kent - Okay, that is part of the analysis.
John Stevens — Okay, the other. part. is what. expenditures did they have to make to accommodate
this.
Jim Kent - If there are any. I am-not-saying-there. are but .you need to cover-that, show whether
there are or not. Just as a gross generalization, residential development typically cost
municipalities more than....
John Stevens - A house does more than_ an-apartment because you have to have more road and
all that other stuff.
Jim Kent - I don't know. That is a common sense conclusion: I am not sure if the studies back it
up.
Mark Varayanis - I think the studies in Tompkins County have been pretty consistent 20 to 1 to
25% regardless of the type.
John Stevens - Anything else you want. us. to cover-in-that one? Buses.
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• Kristin Sosnicki - Can the school district service? Will they need more buses? Is there enough
room for the extra children. School buses is part of this.
Jim Kent - I am sure that was covered in the scoping document.
John Stevens -
I think that was
covered,
because we had
something from the
Ithaca
School that
said this would
have virtually no effect..
But you would
want to know from
T -Cat
also.
Kristin Sosnicki — Yes. Is there going to be a bus shelter?
Robert Hamer - Yes, I believe that is shown on the site plan.
John Stevens - Anything else in that paragraph-that I haven't talked about that you want to know,
or do you think it should be in this? Water, sewer, buses, T -Cat, fire police.
Jim Kent — Again, it is enough-study to reach_a conclusion,. allow people to reach_a conclusion by
reading it, whether there is a impact on the towns economic resources through the development
of this complex.
John Stevens - Noise and Odor. What information-do you need?
Jim Kent - We are not asking for a study, which is well beyond what I think is necessary here.
You need to identify the sensitive ....the noise terminologies: noise generators, identify what
is they are. Probably this is, during construction is when this is going to be an issue; noise
receptors, which are schools, residences, hospitals, so it's probably a fairly simple matter of
saying there is no hospital here, residences are here, here and here. The noise generators are
going to be during construction ...
John Stevens - Also a noise generator here in-Route 366, that-sort of thing, 70 decibels or. so....
Jim Kent - That is exactly right. When you are doing a qualitative sort of noise assessment. It's
not quantitative. We are not going to have a expectations of noise measurements. It is a
qualitative assessment.
John Stevens - An existing noise environment and noise environment with construction and
noise environment post construction and noise receptors and local noise generators including us
and Rt. 366.
Jim Kent - I am going to guess you could probably summarize this in three or four paragraphs.
John Stevens - Is there anything in any of these that we have missed that you want, a overall
view that would help you ? Something that would help right now?
Jim Kent - The overview on it. We need to be provided enough information to make a
reasonable conclusion whether there is a impact or not, if there is a impact then provide us with
• proposed mitigation.
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Deb Grantham - Is it fair to say when someone is reading this they shouldn't have to go look for
references, they should be able to read it and draw their_ conclusions?
Jim Kent - Yes that is fair, this document is aimed at the layman. If you have technical studies in
put them in the appendix and people like us will read them. P_ut.enough of it into the narrative in
layman's terms so a layman can draw conclusions without having to go read the technical studies
that got to those conclusions.
Deb Grantham - If there standards used to develop. the document,. include them_ so I don't- have to
go to the library to find them.
Jim Kent - That is a good point. If you are going to reference this, attach the relevant sections
that you have referenced. Not the whole thing, but the revenant sections.
Deb Grantham -I had an additional -comment back_on_the. transportation. You talked. about other
pedestrian and bicycle paths, so I don't know what you meant by that. You might want to clarify
that. If you only meant for railroad-bed trails but. it leaves one to believe that there is a whole
network of trails. It is not clear.
Jim Kent - You are looking for a description. of those linkages.
John Stevens - Have we covered anything?
Robert Hamer- I have a couple of-questions. If questions. come up as I_am_putting it together,
can I contact Tim and Laura directly? Can I get your extensions?
John Stevens - Okay,. let's do the business card thing.
Robert Harper — The other thing John, I guess is the form of the next submission. Are you clear
on how that's going, to take place, what's going to change?
John Stevens — I guess we just do it the same way, right?
Jim Kent — Yeah.
Robert Hamer — That's what I'm asking. I don't know if we are just going to revise this, or
provide you another one....
Jim Kent — and identify it as a resubmittal.
John Stevens — Yeah, I understand that, but I mean the basic form was okay, wasn't it?
Jim Kent — No issue with that.
John Stevens — Then we can just update this and update the appendix.
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•
9
Jim Kent — It's a knit- picking detail, but it should be there. It will help the reviewers.
Robert Harper — As well as the long form?
Jim Kent — That would be a good idea, too.
John Stevens — Okay, are we all set? Everybody ready?
Adjourned at 9:00 PM
Respectfully submitted,
0 A
Cynthia Abbey
Deputy Town Clerk
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