HomeMy WebLinkAbout1990-01-24 • aa -
TOWN BOARD MEETING
PUBLIC HEARING
TURKEY HILL WATER & SEWER DIST .
• JANUARY 24 , 1990
Minutes of the special Town Board meeting
RESOLUTION # 85 INTRODUCE LOCAL LAW # 1 - 1990
Clm Hatfield offered the following resolution and asked for its
adoption :
RESOLVED , that this Town Board introduce Local Law # 1 - 1990
amending Local Law # E of the year 1989 and schedule a public
hearing for February 13th , 1990 at 7 : 3OPM
2nd Clm Carrigan Roll call vote - all voting Yes
S upv Schug read the notice that was published in the newspaper to
consider the proposed Turkey Hill Water and Sewer District . ( copy
in minute book )
Q UESTIONS AND / OR COMMENTS
D ave Putnam - went over the boundaries for the proposed Turkey
Hill Water and Sewer District .
? ? - wanted to be more specific as to where the water and sewer
lines were going to run .
D ave Putnam - the water will be running in the road right of way
on Turkey Hill Road to Stevenson Road , Route 366 and Baker Hill
Road .
? ? ? - which side of the road on Route 366 will the water lines
run ?
Dave Putnam - the water will be on the railroad side on the lower
side .
? ? ? - with going on the road right of way , how wide is that and
to what extent do those who have property along have the right to
keep the stuff off their personal property ?
D ave Putnam - he believes the State DOT right of way there is 66
feet , it is either 50 feet or 66 feet .
Atty Perkins - it is 33 feet from the center line unless before
it was appropriated .
? ? ? - which side of Turkey Hill Road will the water line be on .
D ave Putnam - he believes it will be on the west side , the
d ownhill side . The water service will be run to whatever side the
road you live on , no matter what side the water mains are on .
0 929 - you will run sewer lines on the opposite side .
TB1 - 9 - 90 page 2
D ave Putnam - yes , water lines will run on one side of the road
and the sewer lines will run on the ether side .
III
? ? ? - if you live on Route 366 will the water be at the railroad
bed or will it be right at the road .
D ave Putnam - it will be right at the road .
? ? ? - what about the sewer ?
D ave Putnam - if you live on the south side of Route 366 the
sewer will be on that side of the road . If you live on the north
side of Route 366 your sewer will go out back from the railroad ,
because of the houses on the north side of Route 366 all sit
lower than the road .
? ? ? - why can ' t the people on the north side of the road tap into
the water line that is running along the tracks ?
Dave Putnam - he guessed it wouldn ' t make any difference which
one they tapped .
? ? ? - so they would have the option then , instead of drilling
u nder the road ? People on this side all their lines have to go
u nder the road , is that correct ?
D ave Putnam - water mains ?
® ? ? ? - yes .
Atty Perkins - the service will be brought over during
construction . .
D ave Putnam - in part of this district they will bring the
service across the road .
? ? ? - he wondered why the water line couldn ' t run on this side of
the road and the people on the lower side of the road tap into
the water line on the railroad track .
D ave Putnam - the public health department in New York State
✓ equires a 10 foot separation between water and sewer lines .
? ? ? - they didn ' t do it that way along the railroad tracks .
Dave Putnam - they are 10 foot apart .
? ? ? - no , they are about 8 foot apart .
Chris O ' Connor - how many liner feet of main , what size main and
total number of hydrants to the system ?
olt
TB1 - 9 - 90 page 3
D ave Putnam - approximately 1100 feet of ii inch main , 2000 feet
o f B inch main and lean of 6 inch main and 19 hydrants . Those
kfl footages are not exact , but are for estimates only .
Chris O ' Connor - wanted it outlined where the mains would he
located .
D ave Putnam - the t2 inch main would run all along Turkey Hill
Road and Route 3669 B inch main would run from Monkey Run Road , 6
inch would run on Forest Lane an area along Route 366 and B inch
along the lower end of Mt Pleasant Road , and B inch on the ether
end of Mt Pleasant .
? ? ? - what is the line pressure ?
D ave Putnam - the line pressure will vary depending where you
are . The same pressure is set by the same tanks . Both the tanks
w i l l be the save elevation . The line pressure in this area is
about 82 pounds .
? ? ? - will we have to put in any reducer' s or increasers to handle
the line pressure ?
D ave Putnam - Bolton Point will require a pressure reducing valve
for hookup . This is also a good practice when you get a water
surge .
? ? ? I- a minute ago it was identified as 33 feet for the sewer
line ,, what does that mean because he is curious in terms of how
far will the sewer lines be on the property from the road . He is
concerned about people having trees and wanted to be sure they
would be saved ,
Supra Schug - if they are in the State right of way the tree may
D ave to be taken down .
77 ? - when you say 33 feet from the center line that is the
center line of the road . ,
D ave Putnam - in SOME' places 33 feet from the center liineis the e
back side of the present ditch . Right now some places there are
as or 2 7 f e et t h e y there i s the shoulder and ditch .
? ? ? - is it possible for individuals who would like to keep the
u se of their well water or will they be required to hook on
D ave Putnam - he couldn ' t answer that , because it depends on the
w ay the local law in written .
fi; ty Perkins - the Town does not have any current plans to
✓ equire connection , but you will still be assessed for the
improvements . 3 f you are not using the water you will not pay for
0 any water usage to Bolton Point . You will still be assessed a
special assessment for the original, capital construction cast .
iS
Tel - 9 - 90 page 4
Ckm Walbridge - the Town would not require them hot to use their
• j ; well .
Atty Perkins - that is correct , unless their well becomes
contaminated or there was a problem with it in which case the
Town could require them to hook up , or the Health Department
could require them to hook up .
? ? ? - when they have the water line going through and they have
the ditch dug down , can they as personal property owners hook
into that line and have a dead end to the hookup until they
• decide to use Cr a not to use it 'd Can they bring an off line from
the major pipe within 3 feet from the basement of their home and
have it sealed so they are not using any water that they are not
supposed to use , and should they later decide they want to use
that water they can hook into it ?
Dave Putnam - - for every existing home the service will be put in
and run to the end of the right of way and a valve will be put on
it there .
? ? ? - will the valve be put where I want it or where someone else
w ants it ?
Dave Putnam - it will he put where the Town wants it because it
will be their shut Doff valve to your water system .
? ? ? T he may want it at one side of the house or the other .
? ? ? - that brings up a question for his property . He is 400 feet
from Route 366 and when he bought the house he had no right of
w ay to Route 366 . There was an undefined right of way going
behind Charles 9hew Furniture . Since then there has been a road •
put in beside him and three houses have been built based on road
f rontage on that read . He still does not see the road one the map .
D ave Putnam - is not sure where the road is or he would put it
on .
? ? ? - if he is 400 feet back and there is three parcels between
h irer and Route 366 , are you going to run your pipe to his right of
way which is 400 feet back .
Dave Putnam - what will happen there the water and sewer line
w ill be extended up the new road . The new road transpired during
the writing of their report .
? ? ? - that would mean an increase size of the whole project .
D ave Putnam - fortunately it is not a long road .
? ? ? - he could safely assume that he can tie into 30 feet from
- the new road rather than running 400 feet of pipe to Route 365 .
TB1 •-24 --9Ci page 5
art Dave Putnam - he thought that would be safe to assume .
_ Atty Perkins - you will not be required to go across other
peoples property in order to connect to the water and sewer .
? ? ? - in doing this since the last meeting have you come across
any engineering features that have compounded the problems or
eased some of the problems or is it still pretty straight
forward ?
D ave Putnam - it is still pretty straight forward . Since the last
meeting , all they have done is finalize the report for 'Eonights
meeting and redid the maps .
? ? ? - you haven ' t relocated any of the tines or anything ?
Dave Putnam - - the lines will not actually physically located
u ntil they have gone through all of the processes and work is
actually authorized to be designed ,
? ? ? ,. do all of the roads that they are talking about have the 55
foot right of way lire Forest Sane ?
Atty Perkins - no , the state road is the 55 foot right of way .
Town roads are 46 . 5 feet ( 3 rode ) , and the county is the same
u nless it were appropriated or the land was deeded to the county
when they reconstructed Turkey Hill Road .
It ? - would like to know whether their property is in the Monkey
Run district or in the Turkey Hill district . They are across from
Wicker Wharf and the pipe line has already pone across their
property . People across from them are in the Monkey Run district
and yet they got a letter stating they were in the Turkey Hill
district , why is that ?
D ave Putnam - the piece of land in the corner of Baker Hill Road
is in the Turkey Hill district . The area of Henshaw Road , Route
13 , area around hYhEhG and Jim ' s Deli are the only ones in the
Monkey Run district . The pipe runs across your property , but you
are in the Turkey Hill district . The Monkey Run pipe also runs
d own the railroad right of way .
? ? ? a what she is thinking though is as long as the pipe is
already there why are they involved in the new district ?
Atty Perkins - your property was not in the Monkey Run district .
The district lines went along the center line of the road and you
were excluded from the district .
? ? ? - what she is saying is that they already have the pipes
going across their property .
3
TE1 - ' 24 - SO page 6
Fatty Perkins - the line itself is there by easement , cor^ recta but
you are not in the district . You are not paying for the cost of
the Monkey Run district _
? ? ? - they went across their property and to them with the idea
that they would be able to hook into that pipe line .
? ? ? - do you have it in writing ?
? V? - no , she wishes she did .
Atty Perkins - you will be able to hock into that pipe line when
you are in a district . Otherwise the only way YOU could do it is
by contract as an out oaf district user . You are not being
assessed anything right now for the fact that you have the access
to the sewer . When you are in a district then you would be
assessed for it and then you can connect to the line .
? ? ? - at this time do you know which side of the road the water
o r sewer lines will be dug on Forest Lane ?
Dave Putnam - he would guess that sewer line would be on the
north side and the water line on the south side .
? ? ? . - and nothing down hack of the homes ?
• Dave Putnam - no , but was asked at the last meeting about hooking
to the existing lines of the Monkey Run district down in the back
and he would guess that if it turned out to be easier and cheaper
for them that there would not be any abjection for that .
htt - wanted to know if the , ewer line went as far as the water
line on Turkey Hill Rd ? •
D ave Putnam - at the present time it does not , because it goes ae
far down Turkey Hill Road as it can to be served by gravity . If
the adjoining property wants to be put on line there will have to
be a pump station installed .
? ? ? - the sewer lines on at the back of property after Mt
P leasant Road ?
D ave Putnam - yes it is , because the houses sit lower than the
✓ oad .
t ht - Forest Lane was originally the old bnbten Rood , are you
sure about the width of it ?
Dave Putnam •- to be absolutely honest , as her as that road goes
h e is not sure of anything abut it . There is controversy who
still owned the right of way on the side of the railroad at one
time . That road is old enough that it may not be e 66 fort right
of way . This is something that once you get into the survey you
w ill find out exactly where the right of way is before you lay
o ut water lines .
3$
TP1 - E4 - SO page 7
• ? ? ? - could you go over what this entails in going into someones
1 home , what happens with the pump that goes in your house ?
1� Dave Putnam - the hook up to the sewer , you have to have your
septic tank pumped and the top part crusher run filled , so that
no one would fall in . You would then hook to the sewer line that
the Town brings to your yard . With regard to water hook up , the
pump becomes yours / Bolton Point will require an inspection of
your plumbing installation , also a pressure release valve in the
house .
? ? ? - how far below in the ground will the pipe have to bet
D ave Putnam - four and one half feet , this is required by the
w ater supplier .
? ? ? - the gas line and telephone line that runs up Turkey Hill
(Road is not that deep _
D ave Putnam -- these are things that will come out when you go to
e ngineer the project . You will find out where other utilities are
and hopefully you can avoid all of those , you may hare to move
some .
? ? - how close to the gas main on the north side of Route SEE is
that water line supposed to be ?
Dare Putnam -i- it can be within 3 feet from the gas main .
? ? ? - the Ras main is 1E or 17 feet off the side of the road _
Dave Putnam - then it would be between the gas main and the road .
? ? ? - the other thing that he has concerns about is what
prediction do they have if this thing ever breaks . You see where
these water mains break and they leave huge holes in the streets .
This would happen if it ever broke orr the others side and if the
sewer ever plugged up .
D ave Putnam - on the sewer there in no more force than in the
septic tank . On the water , if there is a major break it will
create quite a hole . He did not have an answer , but if it happens
it happens and the Town would have to repair it .
ttp - on that one part of Turkey Hill if the sewer is in the back
yard and the water line in the front yard , does it here to be
that way } on that there is both ends of the property dug up ?
• Dave Putnam - anything is possible , but the best place would be
u p in the road though , only for the fact that you don ' t hare to
branch out for your hydrants .
7
TB1 - i4 - SO page 8
•
? 77 - on the Turkey Hill branch there is one sewer line that goes
behind the houses up to a certain point and then stops and the
✓ est of the line is on the uphil ], side . He is in a spot where he
is in between those .
Dave Putnam -- there will be several places that once they get to
the detailed plans that will put the houses on one pump or one
pump on one house and pump it up into the gravity .
? ? ? -° wanted to know where the sewerage pump would be located ?
Dave Putnam - at one time they thought that they may have to put
o ne to service the apartments on Turkey Hill Road near the bridge
just to get the sewage from there back over to the gravity sewer .
They do not know for sure until they get detailed engineering . He
is sure there will be a small pump station at that site .
7 ? - wanted to know how far they were going up Baker Hill Road ?
D ave Putnam aaa they would be going up to where the power lire
crosses the road , on the down hill side .
? ? ? - has anything come up that would change the cost that was
talked about at the lest meeting are you still basing everything
o n about the carne estimated cost ?
bupv hchug - the figures are about the same , not until you get to
the point of actually designing it and bidding . He does have a
list available by homeowner* .
V? ? - wondered at the informational ional meeting it was $ 940 , 000 for
sewer. and $ 930 , 000 for water and in the legal at it is $ 9901000
for each ?
D ave Putnam - the Town had to buy additional sewer capacity to
the Ithaca Wastewater Treatment Plant . The increase in water is
that some of the mains had to be up sized and added some more
footage on Turkey Hill Road that was not in the original plan .
7 7 ? - are there any other sewer plans in the Town that will use
some of this sewer capacity ?
• rpv Schrp - if there is they will have to buy their own .
ttt - the present properties then would meet the total capacity
at the present system . You couldn ' t build additional houses and
h ave properties cut onto this line if we are already to capacity .
Is that correct ?
S upv Sohug - there would be room if you bought additional
capacity . You Puy it by shares , if the Town is going to use
100 , 000 gallons you can ' t buy 100 , 000 gallons , you have to buy a
Share ,
TB1 - 24 - 9C' page 9
? ? '? - in other words there is capacity there , we just don ' t own
it .
Clm Walbridge - the Town of Dryden does not own it . The City of
Ithaca awns a huge amount , and the Town of Dryden owns one share ,
the Town of Ithaca owns sort of the rest , and the Town of Dryden
has to buy off one of the other partners part of that share .
There is plenty of capacity at the plant , but the Town of Dryden
does not own that much capacity so we have to apply for more
shares .
? tt - what is the current status of the State review of this
project ? We understood at the last meeting that there has to be
State approval before this could go to a final site .
Dave Putnam - you have to have the public hearing first . If
someone requires a referendum , then if it passes it goes to the
State for review .
kitty Perkins - after the public hearing , the Town Fl and can adopt
a resolution establishing the district subject to a permissive
✓ eferendum . There is a 30 day filing period after the adoption of
the resolution to determine whether a referendum will he held . If
a petition is filed , and the petition is otherwise adequate and
has the required number of signatures a vote is then held within
th days of the filing of the petition . Depending on the outcome
of the vote application may then be made to the State Comptroller
o r if it is turned down you are back to square one .
? ? ? - would you give me a ball park figure as to what it would
cost just to extend the water from where you ended on Mt Pleasant
d own to Dryden Road so you can avoid another dead end main ?
D ave Putnam - the problem with that is you are into different
pressure zones , it would be fairly expensive to put in pressure
✓ elease valves .
ttt - those of on on the north side of Route Pbh compared to
those on the south after going a long way to get in the sewer
system . Is there any difference in the charges depending upon
those who have to to 50 feet and us that have to to 400 feet _ We
h ave to put that line in ?
D ave Putnam -- it depends on the length that the town runs the
lateral i n your back yard .
? t ? - it will be in the front yard unfortunately . The sewer lime
is just across the street from us and we have to go way back to
the railroad track ,
•
D ave Putnam -• the Ieogth of the lateral is determined by the Town
B oard .
0
TB1 - i4 - 9O page 1 0
? ? ? - you mean on the north side of the road they are putting in
laterals , or does each person have to hook up directly at the
✓ ailroad bed ?
Dave Putnam - no , they will put in a lateral along the railroad
and the length of that lateral has to be determined as to how far
the Town will go and how far you will have to go .
77 ? - the basic question he has is that there is some property
that is fairly close together . If you have to go 400 or 50000 feet
back to hook in , could the adjacent properties come together and
share the expense of the long pipe and installation to go all the
w ay back to the one along the railroad bed . Could that be done ?
In some parts of the country each house has to be connected
specific directly to the sewer system , they cannot join .
D ave Putnam - that is an option . If the individual homeowners
w ant to . Obviously four or five homeowners can ' t go into a common
4 inch pipe , but if they want to put in the proper size pipe , and
d o it to Town specifications them probably the Town would let
them .
? ? ? -I there is still no Federal or State aid , whatsoever ?
S upv Schug --• not that they know of at this point . If there is any
money around they will apply for it .
? ? ? - he thought that one of the questions that carve up at a
previous meeting was the number of years for the bonding ?
S upv Schug - it would probably be E ) or r`7,. 5 years .
? ? ? - is that the same for other districts in the Town .
S upv Schug - pretty much . You can ' t get them like Varna which he
thought was 40 years . You can ' t get a 40 year bond any more , but
the bonding rate is fairly reasonable . If you call 7 percent
reasonable . This is about what banding money is going for
? ? - compared to other districts , is this average , above average
or below average for the individual ?
S r.apv Schug - they do not have a lot of background . This is really
o nly the second district in the Town of Dryden . It is a lot less
e xpensive per individual than Monkey Run is , of course that is
all commercial , and that carne out fairly expensive . But , it also
helps this district with water and sewer .
J im Breshen - he thought in t _ days economy this is a fairly
representative cost of what you are looking at . Considering known
wt urces of sewer prices , back when the construction grant program
w as in full f or[:e you were looking at an average sewer unit price
if
Tp1 - 24 -- 90 page II
o f three to four hundred dollars a year , but you were getting
elseventy - five percent aid . You will probably double that , but you
have no way of knowing and in that respect it is a reasonable
n umber for the work that is being done today comparable to other
d istricts .
? ? ? - one more question about the finances . The annual assessment
is 10 years before we are bonded . The annual assessment is for
that 10 year period and then it stops or are we talking about 25
year period at our annual assessment rate .
D ave Putnam - we are talking about a 20 to 25 year period annual
total depending whether they do any bond anticipation notes or
strictly bonding . You have cQ or E5 years to pay it off .
? I)? - So 25 times the number can the corresponding tax assessment .
S upt/ Schug - if bonding rates are reasonable , we would bond as
soon as the district is completed . We are looking at applying for
bonding on Monkey Run right now , because it is all just about
completed . We have the final numbers and bonding money is at a
good rate , so we will bond as soon as possible .
. ? - what does that do to the annual assessment , anything at
all ?
Supv Schug - the annual assessment will not change drastically
one way or the other , but we will start paying off principle and
interest right away and as other people add to the district then
e veryone ' s rate will come down . Whether it is the new person
corning on or whether it is the people who paid for it initially
? ? ? - what is the maximum number of housing units that can be
added to this proposed district , are we going to add student
h ousing on Mt Pleasant ? Is there capacity for that ?
S upt/ Schug - we have four more days to wait we don ' t bring that
u p .
? ? ? - if a person owns property with an annual assessment and
part of that property is sold to another person , who builds a
place there what becomes of the assessment to the original owner .
Is that divided between, the two new ones on what basis , footage ?
S upv Schug - on the same basis generated which is footage ,
acreage , assessment and units .
7 ? ? - if a person has a little land of value it is much better to
sell it and get rid of a portion of the assessment .
At ty Perkins - no , because most of the formula is based on
assessment . If you are getting rid of land , you are getting rid
0 of a smaller 1%1AILL2 part of it .
e
TB1 '- e4 - 90 page 12
S upv Schug -° it would be nice to see these numbers a lot lower
4, than they are , but the difficult part is if we wait another 10
years it will be higher again . He knows it is difficult with
people on fixed incomes and whatever , but your property values go
ups your fire insurance should come down . We have tried to get
some information that our attorneys in New York had for us . In
Tompkins County if your well is approved by the Health Dept they
never come back unless you ask there so that you could drink that
and use it forever until you have a problem and then they come
and check it . they are talking about passing a law which will
probably be 8 or 10 years down the road where they may force the
h ealth department to check wells every couple of years . They have
found drinking water with radon and there is all kinds of
problems with subsurface water; , you are at everyone else mercy .
It is your system not ours , we are not trying to sell it to you .
? ? ? - when dry you anticipate construction if things go through
normally ?
S upv Schug '. if every thing was passed , and we applied to the
S tate Comptrollers Office .
fatty Perkins - his guess would be that you wouldn ' t start
construction until at least the spring of 1991 .
? ? ? - that changed , because the last meeting the question was
asked and you said this summer .
Atty Perkins '- you said that not me .
I ? ? - how long does it take to get the underwriters , your bond
issues and get all of the approvals on those , does that take e
couple of months ?
Supv Schug -- the bonding doesn ' t , the bonding is done after it is
completed , once you know what the district costs are _
? ? ? - why is it that you lengthened the water main down Turkey
h ill Road to Stevenson Road ?
D ave Putnam - they originally left it to end with the sewer to be
conveniently run by gravity . After further anticipation of it and
the town ' s future plan of maybe a townwide water district , they
thought that they should at least plan for this part . There are
or 3 houses down there on the corner that could be serviced , If
there is ever a need there for sewage and y _ u are in the district
then the Town will have to provide it for you at SOME time . The
boundaries fur the water and sewer district are the same .
91 ? - once you start building how long wilt it take ?
S
TB1 -24 - 9C+ page 13
D ave Putnam - the water tank will take probably four to five
months to build it and the water tank will take a longer period
o f time . This system can be used for giving service without the
w ater tank . The water tank is put in the district for the fact
that with this existing water tank here has a lot of people
depending on one tank . We have to maintain that and as we
✓ eported that tank is marginal for this district and with this
becomes even more marginal . If this district develops even more
t hen it becomes way to small . If the tank ever has to be taken
o ff line to paint , to repair it or it springs a leak then you
have to run the pumps constantly . So the second water tank was
added for a safety future , but the whole system can be used once
e verything is all in operation not just this tank or this tank
for short periods of time .
? ? ? - this talk of it possibly being started by spring of 1991
and everything goes according to plan , when will be get billed
for this in Tan of 1992 ?
ktty Perkins - yes .
? ? t -- we don ' t pay any bonding until we get it done ?
S ups 9chug - that is correct .
27 ? - there was a great deal of interest legit time on whether or
0 not any of the annual assessment , any portion of it is tax
d eductible , has anyone researched that ?
ktty Perkins - the deduction is permitted to the extent that the
assessment is allocable to maintenance or interest charges . So we
have to develnpe a formula annually for people to determine how
much of their assessment was deductible .
? ? ? -- he assumed that the principle balance would go a capital
improvement to your property and increase the basis when you sold
your property it would also help you recoup some of the principle
- as less pain on the property . The capital improvement to your
property which increases the basis of your property so when you
sold i, t } it would be less gain because of your capital
improvement .
Atty Perkins - the connection cost .
tt I. the connection cost and the principle .
Atty Perkins - did not think the principle is treated that way .
That is not his understanding .
? ? ? - using the water would not , but whatever the charge was
against the portion of the principle he would assume .
Atty Perkins - will check on that , but he is not aware of it
V
being treated that way .
•
TBL - 24 - 9O page 14
•
? ? ? - at the last meeting there was a rough idea what it would
cost each one of us . Are there different f i g ures at the present
time and more updated .
S upv Schug - he has them all there alphabetical
2 7 ? - the figures you are talking about is a yearly payment for
the nemt 20 or 2E years .
S upv Schug - depending on the total cost of the units , and also
depends on the bending costs .
? ? ? - like the figures for his business the first time around ,
this one is higher .
•
S upv Schug - there is no guarantee that would be the right
n umber . When the State Comptroller gets this and he approves it
that is what he is looking at to make sure that is what is
approved , and it is no more . The engineers try to figure over
what the cost would be to construct . When it is bid out hopefully
they have done a good job and the bid will come in less than what
they have anticipated . Monkey Run carte in pretty close .
J im Greshen - it came in under about a hundred thousand .
D ave Putnam - they are trying to predict two to three years in
the future . If construction costs , stay the ways they are staying
✓ ight now , chances are the bid will come in quite a bit under .
? ? ? I- at the last meeting he looked at the sheet for his property
as 1E04 Dryden Road and he has a trailer park down back . That was
listed as S units . First of all he wants to ask what is a unit
and whatever the definition is he does not have 9 unite there .
All he has is a house and 3 trailers .
? ? ? - doesn ' t it go by the number of people .
Supv Schug - that is part of it , every house is figured as a unit
? ? - regardless if you are a family of 2 or a family of 8 it
makes rp: difference ?
S upv Schug " unless you go and knock on every door .
D ave Putnam - for sewer it doesn ' t make any difference , you can
ask for the same size line if 2 people live in the house or 8
people live in the house . Where as the annual use charge is when
they start charging you for the sewer use .
? ? ? •- getting back to the question as to how units are figured .
H e knows commercially that if he has more than 3 employees , it
noes in increments of 3 as he was told , since he is over 3
0 employes he is listed as 2 units . He has only one business and
1 4
TO : Mr . James Schug , Mrs . Elizabeth Corrigan , Ms . Peggy Walbridge ,
Mr . Charles Hatfieldr Mr . Ronald Roberts
FROM : Helen Lang 1121 Dryden Rd . , Ithaca , and the undersigned
DATE : January 24r 1990
We the undersigned residents and property owners of the
proposed Turkey Hill Water and Sewer District are strongly
opposed to the formation of this district , and we appeal to
the 'Town Board of Dryden to consider the following :
1 . The initial and annual costs of municipal water and
sewer would create a severe financial hardship for a number
of people within the proposed district , particularly older
citizens with fixed incomes and families with young children .
•
2 . The financial hardship may force some people to sell
their homes . At the same time the annual water and sewer costs
could be a major hindrance in selling lower - priced homes and
could , in effect , lower their market value .
I . Owners of vacant residential land may no longer be able
t o afford to keep their land vacant . It is reasonable to assume
that this land would be developed with high - priced homes , com -
mercial uses , or multiple resides ss . ( possitly student housing )
- because the annual water and sewer costs would be , tea high for
`buyers of " affordable housing . "
4 . The costs of water and sewer place a disproportionately
heavy burden on those people who can least afford them - - those
w ith modest incomes . Many of these same people also have no
n eed for the proposed municipal systems .
5 . Most people with inadequate well water knew , or should
have known , that the problem existed when they decided to buy
their homes . Furthermore , many people have lived with their
e xisting water systems for many years . To now attempt to im -
prove their water by placing a tremendous economic burden on
n eighbors is not fair .
I . Property owners who have put considerable amounts of
t ime and money ' into their own water treatment systems would
lase their investments by changing to a municipal system . On
the other hand , most people with water duality problems have
t he option of instal / le their own water treatment systems at
n o cosi• to their neighbors .
7 . The economic burden of municipal water and sewer
would cause drastic and unwelcome changes in some individual ' s
lifestyles . Some mothers who have chosen to care for their
children at home would be forced to work outside their homes ,
and , therefore , young children would be forced into daycare
situations .
•
page
8 - To install municipal water and sewer at this time ,
when no government subsidies are available and when other
costs for services ( particularly garbage collection ) are rising
dlasticallye would be financially irresponsible .
We realize that many people ( perhaps even a majority )
would receive some benefit from Lhe proposed) water and sewer
systems - However , we believe that tor a significant number of
people tte casts would far outweigh the benefits .
While we sympathize with the desires of our neighbors for
improved water quality , we feel that the severe financial
hardship imposed on others males the formation of the proposed
Turkey Hill Water and Sewer District an inequitable and unjust
solution .
•
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TB1 -24 - 90 page 15
one building , but he is listed as 2 units . This is confusing as
410 he is listed as having 5 trailers and he is listed as 9 units .
How does he get assessed for 2 units and he only has one building
and 5 employees . He can ' t understand how the unit figure is
arrived at .
• ? ? - he only has 5 trailers and is putting the Town Beard on
notice that he is closing the park later this year .
Dave Putnam --- the information was taken from the tax roll . If it
w as listed as a 2 family house it was down as 2 units .
? ? ? - that he could understand if you had a house with an
apartment in it yes he could see 2 units , but if you have one
place , one business how do you get 2 units .
? ? ? - the business is only open part of the day and 5 days a week
and would use less water than a house would use , since there
w ould be no laundry done .
Atty Perkins - you have to keep in mind this formula is
illustrative only . A formula is developed annually by the Town
Board in November . This formula is always subject to a public
hearing and to review and to correct the roll before it is filed
and before the benefit assessments are levied . If there is a
clerical error than you have an opportunity to be heard and can
Ast be corrected . This formula can be changed every year .
VIT
Helen Lang - read a letter that she was going deliver to the Town
Board after the meeting and which she invites anyone who feels
the same way to sign it after the meeting if they would like to .
( copy of letter in minute book )
? ? ? - thought it would be excellent to be thinking about that
letter but she wishes at this time that you sir please tell us
again what the average cost of replacing a whole system is and
what the board of health might recommend . We are just around the
corner of knowing that some of the systems right now are not
adequate and the water is polluted in some instances and some
people are a little fearful of their water and sewer .
•▪ ? ? - put in a septic system for $ 3 , 000 . 00 actually the tank was
in and they had to redig everything , resand and install a pipe
and she has a three bedroom house .
? ? ? - called the health department about a month ago and spoke to
Frank Chase . He was told that he knew of problems in this area
and that if there were serious problems or complaints about
systems that were not working then they would have to investigate
it and the person would be breaking the law . They would be forced
to fix it under public health supervision . He was concerned
TB1 - 24 - 9C' page 16
because he feels very strongly that the state public health are
' going to outlaw sand filters . He feels this is coming within the
next year or two . There is a solution to many of the problems
that go bats , but it would be up two the individual to resolve the
problem someway . He mentioned that what if this was not
resolvable . Mr Chase said that they hadn ' t found one yet that
isn ' t , but sometimes they are terrible expensive . He knows that a
lot of them that are drinking water that is contaminated from
drainage from septic systems . From the public health standpoint
and also from the environmental standpoint to have all of this
handled through a sanitary system through the city is a solution
for people who are interested in the environment . It is certainly
important from our own health standpoint to do something that is
inevitable that we have to face . He sympathizes with the economic
problems they are tough and he does not know any way around it .
It is to bad that we didn ' t do this several years ago when the
✓ arna district was put in it would have been a fraction of the
cost , but we are going to face the same problem in a couple of
more years . There will be a lot of people that are going to get
h urt and get sick . We are doing a lot of pollution to each other
and to the community that we shouldn ' t have to do ,.
Supv Schug - wanted to know if anyone had drilled a well lately
in the area .
71' 7 - yes , $ 5 , 000 . 00 plus for 102 feet .
Supv Schug -- so if you had to put in a septic tank and new well
it would cost in the neighborhood of seven or eight thousand
d ollars with no guarantee as to how long it would last .
777 - he has a sand filter so he is concerned , two years ago he
had a problem and the time it was estimated at $ 4 , 500 to repair
the sand filter .
Jim boaahen , from Hunt Engineers °- there are a couple of topics
in this regard . In regard to sand filters in other parts of the
state that do not have county health department , which you he
have one here . At this point in time sand filters are not
considered an alternative for individual disposal corrective
measures . For a sand filter it is a filter bed which you
discharge into but the biological action within the sand provides
treatment and then there is an actual point of discharge that the
affluent has to discharge to some stream or waterway of that
type _ The Department of Environmental Conservation consider by
state law that single point discharge is for single family homes
are illegal . The only places within the state that sand filters
are in operation are counties that operate under county health
d epartments . The county health departments take on that
responsibility of allowing and approving sand filters . The
pressure on them is becoming greater every week in that regard .
He has had many conservations with DEC officials and they feel
0 that sand filters are a designed failure . Sooner or later any of
t he sand filters that they approve are the
TB1 - 24 - 50 page 17
so called county systems and would not be approved under state
standards . This is the way things are going in that regard .
Another point is that there have been a lot tests around the
state and north east and the on lot water and sewer systems . The
S tate Health Dept published a book that is called the blue book .
It lists all of the perimeters for sewage systems and water
systems for individuals . They recommend a separation distance
between well and a septic field of tOO feet . In areas where you
h ave high concentration of people and everyone is on water and
sewer it is very difficult to get 100 separation between all of
the waells and all of the septic systems . Septic systems when they
are operating properly do do a good job , but lets face it their
job is to introduce cont am i nat es to the soil and no contaminates
are treated by the action there . The chart was not made up but
actually developed by actual study in water quality monitoring
and how far they feel is a safe and reasonable distance to allow
for this treatment to take place . The general rule of thumb is
that area that is in water and seer to effectively accommodate
the separation distance is that lot sizes should be a minimum are
acre in size . Any place that you have population that is on bath
private wells and septic systems do net have one acre minimum
.lots is probably a known fact that there is reason for concern .
H e doesn ' t say it is a problem , but is a reason for concern . This
is just informational and general practice within the industry
and guidelines that are used .
Ash ? ? ? - aren ' t we responsive about everyone being concerned about
new laws coming into attach that will force everyone to hook up
to water and sewer systems anyway . Thought those laws would not
pass unless they were accompanied by some kind o f funding which
w ould allow people to put them into effect .
S umo bohug - talk to the gentleman in the back that runs the
Varna fire department who will save your house when it starts to
burn down and ask him what the State does to him with their miles
and regulations and how much funding money he gets for it .
Chris O ' Connor - we get a lot of rules and get no money .
? ? ? - put your effort into changing the rules now and than 10
years down the road you can afford to put the system in .
? ? ? - the engineer offered an alternative to a septic treatment
system with a cart filter . Are we talking about individual
✓ esidential tertiary treatment plants at evert house for what the
S tate promulgate ?
J im breehen - you are really not to her off . This is happening in
a lot of lake communities where there are a lot of sand filters
and discharges to the lake . Now you are looking at some
e ssentially law package type treatment plants that are
commercially available for residential use . They run in the price
0 range of $ 10 , 000 to $ 15 , 000 per household depending on the
magnitude of the plan for treatment , and you have to heap them
maintained as well .
•
TB1 - 24 -- 917 page 18
7 ? ? -- if the owner of property has to give you right to put the
fp water lines through , is the equipment that they use on that land
he is referring to what happened on the railroad tracks . They had
some very big diggers , and they swung way around and knocked
trees down all over the place and he knows very well that you can
put that drench down, with a much smaller piece of equipment . If
they go across his property can he insist in certain areas that
the equipment be of such a size that will meet their need to dig
that deep without wrecking everything around it or can he stand
in the ditch and stop them ? You are not going to have that big
equipment you are going to have smaller equipment to dig a trench
that is not three foot wide . Can they insist when you go through
certain areas of their property that they use smaller equipment ?
D ave Putnam - did not know if they could insist on the equipment
size , but they can define areas with easements that is not to be
destroyed .
? ? ? - 10 years ago they prat a gas line down Turkey Hill Road and
not one tree died on the whole length of the road .
? ? ? - they went through my front yard and I requested that they
change angle and they did very nicely and didn ' t damage anything
• and hopes the water line will do the same thing _
D ave Putnam - all of the water lines will be in the road right of
0 way . The least you damage the cheaper the job and they try to
design around objects and try to do as little damage as possible .
? ? ? - on the west side of Turkey Hill Road where you say you are
going to put your water line that is where the gas line is right
o n the edge of the road .
D ave Putnam - gas lines are very easy to work around .
? ? ? - what can we do to get this thing moving ?
fatty Perkins - close the public hearing .
bogy Sohug - if anyone has anything to say now is the time to do
it .
i ? ? - what are we accomplishing at this meeting is this the
public hearing or just informational ?
5ogv Schug - this is the public hearing , from this point on the
Board will take it under advisement and pass on it to be notified
and then have to wait Pt days .
Attyr Perkins -- this is the public hearing and there is no other
public hearing required .
a ? ? ? - after the thing is finalized there is no may we can change
anything .
TP1 - aA - 90 page 13
Clm Walbridge - you can ask to change details , but not suddenly ,
lets say everybody says they want it and look at it again and
they say no , it doesn ' t work that way .
S upv Schug - from this print onq once it is approved and the
e ngineers get into the detailed drawings , you are now talking
about heavy duty dollars , they have already spent a lot of money .
If we start into the project you can ' t stop it , but if you say go
u p your side of the street or work around your favorite elm tree
this can be done and should be . If you have a problem you should
•
call .
? t ? - the last time he asked was how we were going to vote , per
u nit , per person how ?
S apv Schug - there is only a referendum if a petition is filed
w ith the Town Clerk and then you get to vote .
ilk - how many signatures have to be on a petition to have it go
to a vote ?
Atty Perkins - 9 signatures are required . After~ the Town Board
adopts a resolution establishing the district which will
presumably not be prior to February 13th and he can not guarantee
what the Board will do . Following the adoption of the resolution
w ithin 30 days a petition maybe filed with the Town Clerk which
eth is signed and acknowledged by the owners of taxable real property
wit in number equal to at / east five percent of the total number of
such owners . This has been computed and it is nine . There are 179
o wners and you need 9 signers , 9 owners according to the last
completed assessment roll _ Assuming the petition is regular and
that is that it conforms to the requirements of the Town Law and
that it is signed by the right number of people , at least nine
the Town Board will then schedule a special election within 40
d ays , At the election you need an affirmative vote of a majority
o f those voting on the proposition . Who can vote - Husband and
w ife , joint tenants , tenants in common on the deed according to
the latest a. seeesaent roll all get one vote : If you own more than
o ne parcel you only get one vote . A corporation gets one vote and
must be represented by a resolution certified by the secretary
and officer of the corporation designating who car? vote . A
partnership gets one vote . You ,do not . have to be an owner of
property to vote , if you are an otherwise qualified elector and
you reside In the district you may vote , and we don ' t know at
this point how many electors there are . if ytu reside in the
sewer and water district and you are an elector and you have
registered you may vote also . There will be a separate
proposition on the water district and sewer district . There is no
absentee voting , you must be present to vote .
4 )
TB1 - 24 - 50 page 20
? ? ? - clarify the elector . If the person doesn ' t own the property
can they be a tenant ?
Atty Perkins - a tenant who is over 18 and who is registered may
✓ ote .
? ? ? - here is a person who is renting property who has an
important vote there , wow .
? ? ? - so you would be able to carry it evenly by having your
✓ enters voting . It will no longer be the property owners .
Atty Perkins - was not sure how to answer her question , but he
can tell you that if are a qualified elector and you reside
w ithin the district you will be entitled to vote on the
proposition . The property owners can vote even if they don ' t
✓ eside there .
? ? ? - would like to know what happened to all of the papers that
w ere filled out by the property owners to the Town Board which
w ay the vote went , was it more for or against .
S upv Schug - on the ones that he received back there was probably
75 to 80 percent in favor and only about 25 percent opposed . Most
of them came in after the informational meeting .
Chris O ' Connor - does that mean now the Town has to make a good
faith effort and contact all of the electors within the proposed
district to let them know if in fact there will be a vote .
Atty Perkins - no , the Town will publish in the Ithaca Journal a
notice of a special election and it will post a notice that will
comply with the provisions of the election law and town law . They
w ill not attempt to notify all the owners whether they are owners
o r electors .
? ? ? - by post do you mean , here in the building ?
S upv Schug - post in the Town Hall
Atty Perkins - in the Town Hall , because that is the official
town sign board .
? ? ? - how does a renter have a say in spending our money for what
is going to cost them ? How do they legally have a right to do
that ?
Atty Perkins - you should ask the court of appeals , because they
are the ones who have ruled on the qualified elector . He is only
giving you what he thinks is the reasoning of the court in that
they are affected in that the cost to them in renting is passed
along by owners . They are because that is the law of the State of
New York as interpreted by the courts .
4 L
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4ANSVILLE PLANT - Press, - ITHACA PLaLNT
7 Bank sr 1 � : ][ � �1 ■ 409415 E . State St. a Ithaca, New York 14850
Dansv±IIe, New York 14437 der. Remittance Address
716.335,6012 /"PRINTING GETS THINGS DONE " P.O . Box 9 a Ithaca , New York 14$51
607-272-1212
I ' d like to preface my remarks by stating we are in favor of municipal
water and sewer . However , we only recently became aware of the creation of
the Turkey Hill. Water District by legal notices published in the newspaper and
have not had the time to examine the reports in detail . However , recent
discussions with our engineers , as well as consultants from Industrial Risk
Ensurers ( " T RT "' } , raise sufficient serious questions that we think it would
be advisable for the Board to examine the situation in more detail before
any definitive decisions are made on the Turkey Lill Water District .
As the Board knows , it entered into an agree ent with Wilcox back in
June of 1989 to provide water from the monkey Run Water District that would
be adequate to supply water to Wilcox at proper pressures to the Company in
accordance with federal , state and local standards .
Preliminary investigations by our engineers and by 121 reveal that the
present conditions in the Monkey Run District may be such that the District
cannot provide Wilcox with the water it needs at the pressures it needs +
The problem may be due in part to the reserves available to the system
storage tank on the NYSEG property , or to other factors as yet undetermined .
We have been advised by our engineers that the creation of the Turkey
Hill District may , in tact , make the present problem even worse , because
Turkey Hill would be receiving some of its water through the donkey Run
District , thereby redu,cilg the volumes available to Wilcox and the pressures
within the systa as aC whole . Apparently , . the addition of a storage tank : .of
100 , 000 gallons is being recommended for the Turkey Hill District . Whether
Art and Design • Sheet and Web Offset • Letterpress - Complete Eindery
•
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that will be sufficient in light of potential usage of water by Wilcox Press
is unclear . In fact , the Turkey Hill Report doesn ' t discuss Wilcox Press or
its water supply needs at all . moreover , the existing tank in the Monkey
Run Water District , although it contains a 200 , 000 gallon water storage
capacity , apparently must maintain 150 , 000 of those gallons at all times for
firefighting protection at NYSEG .
Wilcox is reluctant , certainly , to delay formation of the Turkey Hill
District and wants to contribute positively . to the situation . Under the
circumstances , however , Wilcox would request that before any final action be
taken on Turkey Hill that : ( 1 ) more analysis be given to the effects of the
new District ' s creation on Wilcox Press and the Town ' s agreement to provide
Wilcox with adequate supplies of water at prover pressures , and ( 2 ) the
potential advisability of including Wilcox Press , ' either in Turkey tlil Water
District or the monkey her Water District .
Wilcox would not want the Hoard to proceed with water district improvements
which , from the outset , might prove obsolete or inadequate .
Wilcox is willing to share any information its engineers have with the
lonn '.. s engineers and to provide the Town with any other data that might he
helpful in examining the situation . My primary concern is that actions not be
taken until Wilcox ' s engineers and the Town ' s engineers have had an
opportunity to consider the various questions and problems wtict _ eeed to be
addressed .
F
B.
4'7
1131 - 24 - 90 page E1
S upt/ Sch 'sg - wanted to know how many people were present that
were renters ? No one was a tenant but some were renting property .
? ? ? - concerning his trailer park and the number that he was
given the last time he was here he would have to more than double
the lot rent just to make it and he cant justify it .
? ? ? - so he could give all of his tenants $ 50 . 00 to go and vote
against the district .
Toro Parziale , representing Wilcox Press and they are in favor of
this proposed _ ( c '_' py of statement that was read in minute book )
Tom Parziaie - after reading the report on the Turkey Hill
district are there going to be any connection charges assessed to
each of the homeowners to hooking up to the water and sewer and
if so what are those charges going to be ?
Dave Putnam -- that is done through Bolton P 'o' int
Tom barn iale - what about the connection charge through Dolton
Point and for the sewer extension charge , what is that going to
be for each property owner ?
Dave Putnam - could not give him an answer right now . That is not
covered in the engineer report , because that is not part of the
money that they will be handing . That will be part of their
connection charge when they actually connect from where the Town
leaves off to their home . The charge covers Bolton Point coming
but to inspect their service during installation . He does not
remember the figures and never dealt with it on an individual
h omeowner .
Tom har ziale - what is the significance of that statement about
the fire fighting protection always holding 150 , 000 gallons in
that tank by NYhhth .
D ave Putnam - the level of the tank is kept at a level so that
there is always at least 150 , 000 gallons of water for fire
fighting , whether; it be at hYShh or Wilcox Press or a house . It
is the level of the tank . The bottom three quarters of that tank
essentially is used for emergency purposes .
Tom Parziale ,- how do you assure that 150 , 000 gallons is always
in there ?
D ave Putnam - there is a float system on the tank that turns the
pumps on and off when the tank goes down 2 feet .
Tom hariale - is that turned on automatically ?
D ave Putnam - it will be , it is not at the present time working .
0
TB1 - 24 - SO page 22
Tom Parziale - what is the problem with that again ?
Dave Putnam - the problem with that is a line some place in the
water system there is a line surge . They can ' t isolate it and it
keeps turning the pumps on and off .
Tom Parziale I- how long have you been working on that ?
Dave Putnam - right now he has a solution for it and is waiting
for health department approval . NYSE & Ca has to make their final
connection to the water system and they are waiting health
d epartment approval to do it .
Toro Parziale - he understands that the only way you can keep the
t ank full is for NYSE & G to manually go down to the pump station
and turn the pumps on every day .
D ave Putnam - that is correct .
Torn Parziale wa how long is that going to continue ?
D ave Putt-„gym - it will continue until NYSSE & U gets health
department approval to connect . They can switch their water
service over . That is the only problem everything else works .
Tom Parziale - is this new district going to work the same way ,
where someone has to manually turn on the pump .
D ave Putnam - the new district will work off the same automatic
controls . Right now the tank will never* get below the 150 / 000
gallons of water without hYSP & S willing to turn the pumps on
because once it gets below that level they are out of domestic
water .
Tom Parziale - that want be the case when they hook up to the
municipal system ? There will be no need for them to turn this on
manually .
D ave Putnam - the system is in and it works . Some place in hfhhl t
building they have an automatic valve that opens and closes
periodically which causes a water; surge is the water line . The
e lectronic. control that controls the level of the tank sees the
surge and thinks that the tank is either way over filled and
turns the pump off or thinks that it is way under depending on
w hich war the pressure is going and turns the pump on when it
d oesn ' t need to be turned en . This is the only reason that it is
being turned on manually at this point .
S spv Pchug -- mentioned to Tim Parziale that this is a public
hearing for the Turkey Hill district and if he has any problems
w ith the engineers so the Monkey Run system then he should talk
to the engineers at a different t i me , but not to hold up all of
the other people up with the hYPEtP tank .
/17
TH1 -24 -90 page 23
Tom Parziale - didn ' t mean to do that he just wanted to see if
the Monkey Run district was operating properly with the way it
was designed . Because now you are designing a system off a system
that may not be reliable today .
? ? ? - if this is the public hearing does the referendum come 40
d ays from now ?
Atty Perkins -- no , the procedure again is that you close the
public hearing , then at some point if the Town Board adopts a
resolution forming the district the 30 day period will start to
✓ un and 9 signers can force a vote on the formation of the
d istrict . If there are 9 signers for each district there will be
a special election and that will be held within 40 days of when
that petition is filed with the Town Clerk . If no petition is
filed within 30 days of when the Board adopts the resolution and
the time has expired the district is formed , and an application
is made to the State Comptroller . If there is an election and the
vote is for the formation of the districts than upon the
certification of the results of the election application is made
to the State Comptroller . If the vote is against the formation of
the districts the Board can come back and make revisions in the
d istrict or changes in it and call another public hearing if they
so desire .
? ? ? - was told by a Board member that if there was no petition
iswas filed then the district was not formed .
Atty Perkins - that is not correct .
S upv Schug - it depends on the way the Board votes . If the Board
✓ otes against the district that is the end of it and there is no
✓ eason for a referendum .
? ? ? - if the Board votes for it and there is no petition then it
goes through .
Atty Perkins - that is correct .
? ? ? - will the districts be separate so that you could possibly
vote yes for water and no for the sewer district ?
Atty Perkins - yes , there will be separate propositions .
? ? ? - why no absentee votes because that is just franchising
people that are traveling or doing other things .
Atty Perkins - talk to the state legislature , he can ' t help . That
is their interpretation that it is a special election , and a
limited election and there has been no provision made to the
state law for an absentee ballot under those circumstances .
O ? ? ? - how can they get the cost information per family .
TE1 - 24 -- SO page 24
Supv Schug - has the figures available for anyone to look at .
'? '' ? - can they pet copies of the engineering report ?
ptty Perkins - they are available at the Town Mall
Closed public hearing .
,tioca9,4Irc_c_ jr a,
Susanne Lloyd
Dryden Tow Clerk