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HomeMy WebLinkAboutZBA Minutes 2005-08-15 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS MONDAY,AUGUST 15, 2005 7:00 P.M. PRESENT: Kirk Sigel, Chairperson; Harry Ellsworth, Board Member; Dick Matthews, Board Member; Ronald Krantz, Board Member; Andy Frost, Director of Building/Zoning; John Barney, Attorney for the Town; Nicole Tedesco, Planner. ABSENT: Jim Niefer, Board Member OTHERS PRESENT: Chris Stratakos, 124 Honness Lane; Michael S. Husar, Cornell University; Pam Kingsbury, Egner Architectural Associates; David Herrick, TG Miller Engineers; Herbert Diner, 130 Honness Lane Chairperson Sigel opened the meeting at 7:03 p.m. Chairperson Sigel—Good evening, welcome to the August meeting of the Town of Ithaca Zoning Board of appeals. Tonight we have two appeals: that of Theodor Spitsberg and that of Cornell University, and we will take them in that order. APPEAL of Theodor Spitsberg, Appellant, requesting a variance from the requirements of Article IX, Section 270-73 of the Town of Ithaca Zoning Ordinance, to be permitted to create, by subdivision, 3 building lots, with 2 of the lots lacking the required 60 foot width at the street line and the 100 foot lot width at the required front yard set back. A variance from Section 270-71 and Section 280-A of New York State Town Law, may also be required as 2 of the proposed lots will not have frontage on a Town, County, or State Highway. They will have a common driveway with Lot#1. The property is located at Wildflower Drive, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 60.-1-25.2 and 60.4-21, Medium Density Residential Zone. Chairperson Sigel — The first appeal tonight, that of Theodor Spitsberg, Appellant, requesting a variance from the requirements of Article IX, Section 270-73 of the Town of Ithaca Zoning Ordinance, to be permitted to create, by subdivision, 3 building lots, with 2 of the lots lacking the required 60 foot width at the street line and the 100 foot lot width at the required front yard set back. A variance from Section 270-71 and Section 280-A of New York State Town Law, may also be required as 2 of the proposed lots will not have frontage on a Town, County, or State Highway. I'm not sure that's actually true, it is true? They will have a common driveway with Lot 41. The property is located at Wildflower Drive, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 60.-1-25.2 and 60.-1-21. Mr. Frost—Before we start, to the Board, I just want to introduce Nicole Tedesco who is sitting in for Chris Balestra for the Planning Department while Chris is in England. Chairperson Sigel—OK, a representative for this appeal like to come forward? TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Herrick- Good evening, I'm David Herrick with TG Miller Engineers and Surveyors in Ithaca. Yes, we would appreciate your review and blessing of a three-lot subdivision, that utilizes a private drive in common, as opposed to constructing the typical Town road section, which at one time, I believe, had been proposed for this parcel. We end up with three lots that are generous when you consider the R-15 zoning, that normally could be here. These lots vary from over an acre to just about an acre, and the variance is one of the frontage. We do have, lot number 3 with at least the 60 feet of frontage but it does not meet the depth requirement when you get to the Front Yard Setback. And lot number 2 missed out on both of those requirements. So, we're looking for your consideration and acceptance of this plan with those waivers. We have been to the Planning Board, back in July, Preliminary/Final was considered and granted by the board, conditioned upon your review and blessing of the variances. This is a plan that looks to minimize the creation of additional town infrastructure by proposing the common drive in lieu of a dedicated Town highway. Can I answer any questions you might have? Mr. Krantz — Yeah, it's a lovely piece of property, it's sort of ideal to put some lots in, but that lot number 2 is really grossly off on its figures. I mean it's only, it's proposed setback is 17 feet almost by a 100 feet which is normally required, and 23 or 24 feet where 60 feet is required. Usually when lots come before us like that, they're off by 5 percent, 10 percent, this is really off substantially. Comment? Mr. Herrick - Well, again, this layout is to maximize the use of the land, still retaining generous lots, but not requiring, again, the construction of a typical town road with a commensurate 60 foot wide right of way. We could end up with a similar lot count with a short cul-de-sac street built to Town specifications, but nothing would be gained in doing that, other than adding addition infrastructure to the Town for perpetual maintenance. So, we feel that while it does require a variance of the width, the lots in and of themselves are significantly generous in size. And, by utilizing a common driveway, we minimize what's expected to be dedicated to the Town. Chairperson Sigel —We have granted similar variances in the past for these types of flag lots, with I think probably similar, well in some case, probably similar widths, and in some cases even no frontage with easements. Mr. Frost — They are, though, significantly larger, at least twice as large than what is required in terms of area. Chairperson Sigel — Now, you indicated, Andy, that you thought these still required the variance for not having frontage? Mr. Frost—Well, as I see it, only lot one sits on Wildflower drive. Lot number 3 doesn't, and I don't see that lot number 2 does either. Chairperson Sigel—They each have a little bit of frontage. 2 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Frost—No, because that's a driveway, that's a common driveway, that's not a road. Mr. Herrick- Could I approach the board, the white board? Chairperson Sigel—Sure. Mr. Frost—Unless, I'm reading something wrong. Chairperson Sigel—The lots do extend to the road. Mr. Frost—No they don't, unless I'm missing something here. Mr. Herrick - The pink lot represents the center of the drive, that portion to the south is part of lot 3 and it does have 81 feet of frontage on Wildflower drive, but does not have at the what you'd consider the front yard setback, the requisite depth. And then lot 3, or excuse me, lot 2 has only roughly 24 feet of frontage, and between lots 2 and 3, they spit the driveway in the middle. Mr. Frost—Oh, I misread it. I put it in there, and I put the word maybe because it wasn't clear to me. Those were so narrow I just didn't see those, I just assumed that the Stratakos lot went to the driveway in the backyard, but they do in fact have frontage there. Mr. Matthews —Could you explain to me, I'm a little dense sometimes, the 23 foot width, where is that? Mr. Herrick - Lot number 2, the larger portion being in the back, also has between the two pink lines, 23 foot width of frontage out on Wildflower Drive. So, it does extend, in title, all the way back to the larger portion of lot 2, and similarly with lot 3 it has a little more frontage on Wildflower Drive than 2, 2 is the minimalist one. Mr. Frost — There is no scale on this drawing that we have. There is no scale, Lee says scale as shown, but I don't see where there's a scale. Mr. Herrick- There's a scale bar here. Mr. Frost—So that's an inch equals 30? Mr. Herrick- One inch equals 30 feet. Mr. Frost—Did you create that really minimal frontage just to be able to say that there is frontage, then? I'm not sure what purpose it serves other than it does give you, albeit small amounts of, frontage. Mr. Herrick- That's it. [inaudible] 3 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Ellsworth — So these are like Flag lots, it's got a little strip coming down for the frontage? Chairperson Sigel—Right. Lot three has the 60 foot required frontage. Mr. Herrick- It has the frontage, but not ... the front yard setback. Chairperson Sigel — Right, right. Everyone following everything? One lot, lot 1 being fine, requiring no variances; lot 2 requiring two variances for frontage and setback; and lot 3 just requiring a variance for setback. And what Andy put in about 280-A is not applicable because they do have some frontage. So they don't need a variance for not being on a Town road. Any other questions? Mr. Ellsworth—Is this little stub road a new Town road? Mr. Herrick - No, this will be private, and there will be agreements between lots 2 and 3 and as a condition of the Final approval from the Planning Board, those have to be submitted to Mr. Barney for his review. Chairperson Sigel — And as Mr. Herrick pointed out, this has been before the Planning Board, and they acted as, did they act as lead agency? Mr. Barney—Yes. Chairperson Sigel — they were lead for environmental, so we do not need to make a determination there, I think. Mr. Barney—Beg your pardon? Chairperson Sigel—I don't think we need to make an environmental determination. Mr. Barney—No. Mr. Matthews —Kirk, explain to me again, maybe this is confusing for me. Lot 2, the lot width at the street line is going to be 23 feet... and the lot width at the front yard is 16 feet. That doesn't mean the lot width is 16 feet wide. Chairperson Sigel—No, that means that in the zoning ordinance there is a requirement for the lot to be a certain width a certain distance from the road, and at that distance from the road, it's only 16.5 feet. But obviously when you get further back, the lot is considerably wider. Mr. Herrick - Would you like to know what those dimensions are further back, would that be of value? 4 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Krantz—It's more than adequate. Chairperson Sigel—Yeah, further back it's basically a square and it's considerably larger than required so the dimensions must be considerable larger than would be required if it were on the street. Mr. Frost — This being a medium density zone, the minimum lot area would be 15,000 square foot. This is almost an acre, so it's almost 3 times the size, and lot number 3 is 1.3 acres, so they are quite a bit larger than the minimum required 15,000 square feet. Mr. Matthews —OK, thanks for your patience. Chairperson Sigel—John, what were you saying about the EAF? Mr. Barney — This is a Type 11 action. Actually, for the purpose, I don't think you need to get involved in SEQR, not because the Planning Board did it, but because it's an area variance for a single family... Chairperson Sigel — OK. OK, any other questions, or comments? OK, anyone from the public wish to speak about this appeal, Ma'am please? And please begin with your name and address. Chairperson Sigel opens the public hearing at 7:15 p.m. Mrs. Stratakos - My name is Chris Stratakos, I'm at 124 Honness Lane. I didn't see the details of this map until after the planning board meeting, but I notice it says that our garden is three feet onto their property, which we will dispute, and I understand that it doesn't impact, but I'm not sure, I'm not comfortable it doesn't impact any of the variance sizes. We've had that surveyed and we don't think we're three feet over. So, if it takes three feet off of anything that's been said about frontage. Chairperson Sigel—Which lot on here is 124? Mr. Ellsworth—In front of lot 1. Chairperson Sigel—OK, so you're on the corner. Mrs. Stratakos - Right along here. You'll see here on the map it says "garden 3 feet over property line", we're going to dispute that, so...[inaudible]...I want you to be aware of it, and then I just had one question as well. Mr. Barney—Can I... do you have a copy of your survey? Mrs. Stratakos - I don't have it. 5 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Barney—You do not have it with you? Mrs. Stratakos - No. We have a survey from when Mr. Schickel owned the property. He thought he owned this whole thing, and so, our property goes back further than [inaudible]. Chairperson Sigel - OK Mr. Matthews —So you're disputing their map? Mrs. Stratakos - Yes. Just the indication that our garden is 3 feet over the property line. Mr. Matthews —And you don't agree with that? Mrs. Stratakos - No. As I said, it may not impact any variance that's been requested. I don't know how all that is done and measured. Chairperson Sigel — I mean it appears that it would have a moderate impact, if the property line were actually different, if it were say, three feet over from where it is, and we were going to grant the variance it would impact... it's possible we could grant a variance that was not large enough if the lot line were found. Mrs. Stratakos - I'm sorry I'm not organized. So, this is maybe another 3 feet not large enough for that one parcel. Mr. Frost—Mrs. Stratakos, if you can go to the map there, they show a pin over where it says pipe found, are you saying that, you're talking from the pin running in the northeasterly direction, you're saying the whole property line is three foot closer? Or is it just that that points... Mrs. Stratakos - We checked the markers, and none of them are in our garden, they are all outside our garden. [inaudible] I don't how far outside, of other specifics. Mr. Frost—But it's the whole line from the corner of the road... Mrs. Stratakos - While I don't know that there's any problem right in here, because I don't know where you measure, you know. Mr. Frost — So actually his width of 81.21 feet may in fact, for all intents and purposes, not be part of that garden's three foot, which is what I'm trying to establish. Chairperson Sigel—Right. 6 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mrs. Stratakos - And I have not been able to go out and have a measurement. I didn't see this until after the meeting. I just want you to be aware because we think it's ours. Mr. Barney — Yeah, as between who owns the three feet, this board doesn't adjudicate those kind of issues. Mrs. Stratakos -No, I recognize that, but if there are variances impacted by that... Mr. Barney—Well, it would be helpful to see the material. There's no question there is a little bit of a discrepancy here, because it looks like there was a pipe found that was not used as the boundary line. David, do you know anything about that pipe on the northeast corner of Mrs. Stratakos' property. It looks to be back a little bit from where Lee put the corner. Mr. Herrick - Yeah, there was a pipe found out on the Wildflower drive right of way, and then there had at one time been a boundary line that created this arc and I think it was in preparation for developing this into a town street, so that that would have represented the arc at the intersection of Wildflower drive. Mr. Barney —But if you go to the Northeast corner, that one that you just put your finger on, that looks to be back a couple of feet from where Lee actually plotted the boundary line. Mr. Herrick - Correct, I would agree. There is a symbol here, and then there is a symbol where the arc begins and then intersects the pipe out on Wildflower Drive, and the reference to the garden being over the line is in the vicinity of that arc, so, you probably wouldn't find a monument there along that... Mr. Barney—What I'm saying Davis is if you push this line that is South... Mr. Herrick- I understand, right here where the ... Mr. Barney — Yeah, push that whole line back to where that pin is, you probably would get at least outside of her garden. Mr. Herrick - It possibly could, it's probably just a foot and a half or so or two feet to shift that, but it wouldn't change the frontage of 81.21 feet on the right of way. Mr. Barney—It would change the width of the road. Mr. Herrick - It would change the width of the land between Stratakos and this purple line or this pink line that is the center of the driveway. Mr. Frost—That wouldn't necessarily alter the wisdom of granting any kind of variance. 7 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Barney — No, but I think the chairman's correct in that the width of the variance would be ... the minimum amount... [many people speaking at once] Mr. Frost— ... The front yard setback... Mr. Barney—Well, the minimum width... Mr. Herrick - the minimum width right now doesn't comply. That would not change the minimum width issue. Mr. Barney—Well, except that it would require you to have a smaller width. Mr. Frost—He's talking at the maximum front yard setback. Mr. Barney — No, no I'm talking at back the whole length of it is 23 feet, right? Roughly? Chairperson Sigel—No, for lot 3, 31.95. Mr. Barney—What's the width from... Chairperson Sigel—No back there is 31, at the road that one is 80. Mr. Barney—Right, and it's 31 feet at that corner. How are you getting that, is that...? Chairperson Sigel — I assume that's just at the 100 feet, right? 100 feet back you measured it to be almost 32. Mr. Herrick- Correct, it would be less than 32 at 100 feet back. Chairperson Sigel—So you might lose a few feet there. Mr. Herrick- That's correct. Mr. Frost—I think the intent when we stuck in in our zoning ordinance, it may have been in the late 90's, the maximum width at the front yard setback, and correct me if I'm wrong John, I think we did that to accommodate building lots that were kind of pie shaped on cul-de-sacs. We tried to provide some kind of dimension where the lot had to open up to some degree. Mr. Barney—That's exactly right. 8 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Chairperson Sigel — So more of a lessening of the requirement at the road, than it was a widening probably of the requirement back. Mr. Barney—Yeah, it was really intended for the cul-de-sac kind of situation, where you have the maximum of 100 feet at the road and if at the setback line you're going to be 20 or 30 inch wider, really it's the setback line we should be concerned about... Chairperson Sigel—Did you have another point? Mrs. Stratakos - I just had a question? Chairperson Sigel—Yeah, go ahead. Mrs. Stratakos - Knowing that this is a driveway and it's not being turned over to the town or anything, who is actually responsible if there's ice goes out into the street and across the street and into the utility boxes, and if there's anything like that, are the property owners, like I am, kind of required to keep my driveway clear, and, this is different, it's not individual property owners. So, do they have the responsibility for that road? Mr. Frost—Maintenance of the road, if anything, for fire department access. Mrs. Stratakos - So they... Mr. Barney — That's the agreement that was referred to will be required in place and it deals with... Mrs. Stratakos - And so if there were any drainage issues or road issues, that stops at the driveway? Mr. Barney—Let's divide those. There are drainage issues... Mrs. Stratakos - We've talked about that. Mr. Barney — Those are between you and the adjoining landowner, whoever it might be. If there is a road issue, the road, the maintenance issue of the road is to be dealt with by an agreement, and the agreements we require normally have the provision of saying that if the landowners don't take care of a problem, the Town can, and bill it back to the landowners. We don't normally get into drainage type issues as much as we do with the surfacing and the maintenance of the level of the road so that a fire engine can get across the road to get back to whatever is built in the back. Mrs. Stratakos - So the Town has that right. Mr. Barney—Has the right, not the obligation... 9 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mrs. Stratakos - the obligation... Mr. Barney—But the right. Mrs. Stratakos - OK, Thank you. Chairperson Sigel—Thank you. Dick? Mr. Matthews — You had a major huddle there and I turned up the volume on my expensive hearing aids and still didn't get a complete understanding of your huddle. Chairperson Sigel—Well there was an issue of exactly where the lot line is, Mr. Matthews —Yes. Chairperson Sigel—And it just seemed like, the issue was raised that it could possibly be several feet further into lot 3 which would make the width that they have several feet shorter. So we didn't really deal with that to its conclusion, I mean we don't... Mr. Matthews —Will that affect our deliberations? Mr. Barney — Well, it seems to me, first off, the huddle really wasn't for that purpose. The huddle was to call a screen pass to the right. Leaving that aside... [laughter] Mr. Matthews —In Ithaca it's usually to the left, but go ahead. Mr. Barney —The issue is if you chose to grant the variance, and not require Mrs. Strat — I'm going to botch this name... Mrs. Stratakos - Stratakos. Mr. Barney — Stratakos, to come in and provide a survey, because I would like to see if this is an issue for you, I'd like to see the other survey itself, see exactly what they're basing their dimensions on. But if you're comfortable granting a variance and making it for a distance less than the 31.9 feet that they need, by making it maybe 24 feet or 25 feet, then it really isn't an issue, because there is enough room regardless of where that boundary line is, to accommodate that dimension. So, I think that's the end result of the huddle. Chairperson Sigel — Right, I mean basically we can allow for an error of several feet, if we wanted to, in our motion. Or we could just grant it for what is stated, and if it turns out the applicant is wrong, then they would have to come back. 10 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Matthews —The existing homeowner is not going to be adversely affected here. Chairperson Sigel —Well, I mean presumably, the line is where it is really, and it's just a matter of them figuring out who's right and who's wrong. I mean, they could be adversely affected if it turns out that part of their garden is not on their property. Mr. Barney — That's not our determination to make, that's ultimately a court's determination. Mr. Matthews —But if they had figured wrong, then they would have to reconfigure what they've given us. Mr. Frost — Or the board would be considering a variance that is actually lesser than is shown. But we're only talking about the width at what we call the maximum front yard setback. Mr. Barney—Well, and also the width at the back end of Mrs. Stratakos' property. Mr. Matthews —OK, Thank you very much. Chairperson Sigel—Yes. Mrs. Stratakos - Just to make it clear, I don't have a problem with the plans, so I only wanted you to be aware that we will be disputing that if it impacts your granting of a variance to have less feet there. I don't have a problem with the subdivision. Chairperson Sigel—OK, Thank you. Anyone else wish to speak? Sir,please? Mr. Dinert - Mr. Chairman, I am Herbert Dinert, I live at 130 Honness Lane, and my property is bordered by the two properties mentioned in your letter to the West and to the North. I am saying this to establish my credentials as a concerned citizen and neighbor. I came here to speak in favor. I must admit that I am rather impressed with the entire project, and the requested variance would appear to me quite reasonable. I would therefore urge the board to grant it. Thank you. Chairperson Sigel—Thank you. Does anyone else wish to speak? OK, if not, we'll close the public hearing. Chairperson Sigel closes the public hearing at 7:28 p.m. Mr. Barney — I should let the board know that we have on occasion represented Mr. Spitsberg, not in connection with this project, at least, not in connection with this application. We also have on occasion represented Mr. Paolangelli, again, not in connection with this matter, but with other matters. 11 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Chairperson Sigel —OK. Any other questions, comments? If not, I will move to make a motion. I will move to grant the appeal of Theodor Spitsberg, Appellant, requesting a variance from the requirements of Article IX, Section 270-73 of the Town of Ithaca Zoning Ordinance, to be permitted to create, by subdivision, 3 building lots, with 2 of the lots lacking the required 60 foot, actually that's not true, with one of the lots lacking the required 60 foot width at the street line and two of the lots lacking the 100 foot lot width at the required front yard set back at Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 60.-1-25.2 and 60.-1- 21, with the finding that the requirements for an area variance have been satisfied, and with the following conditions: That in the case of lot 2, that the width at the street line be no less than 22.5 feet, and that the width at the required front yard setback be no less than 15 feet; and for lot 3 that the width at the required front yard setback be no less than 27 feet. Anything you would suggest adding, John? Mr. Barney — That it be subject to all of the conditions of the Planning Board, with the exception of the requirement of obtaining a variance from this board, since that's what we're dealing with this evening. I probably would suggest you might also want to include a finding that by allowing the construction or creation of a subdivision in this matter, we are in effect, permitting lots to be built on roads that don't have to be maintained and owned by the Town, as a benefit to the Town. Chairperson Sigel — OK, and also would it be appropriate to make a finding that even though 2 of the lots are deficient at the road frontage, that they are more than twice the required minimum area. Mr. Barney—Yup, OK. Mr. Krantz—I'll second that, but should there be an environmental assessment first? Chairperson Sigel—For just an area variance, it's not required. Mr. Barney — We're taking that position. I'm not 100 percent sure, because this is a subdivision as opposed to a single lot area variance, but I think we could probably justify that determination. Chairperson Sigel—OK, seconded by Ron. All in favor? ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2005- 040: Theodor Spitsberg, Appellant, Wildflower Drive, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 60.-1-25.2 and 60.-1-21, Medium Density Residential Zone. MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Ron Krantz. RESOLVED that this Board grants the appeal of Theodor Spitsberg, Appellant, requesting a variance from the requirements of Article IX, Section 270-73 of the 12 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Town of Ithaca Zoning Ordinance, to be permitted to create, by subdivision, 3 building lots, with 1 of the lots lacking the required 60 foot width at the street line and 2 of the lots lacking the 100 foot lot width at the required front yard set back at Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 60.-1-25.2 and 60.-1-21, Medium Density Residential Zone. FINDINGS- 1. INDINGS:1. The requirements for an area variance have been satisfied. 2. By allowing the creation of a subdivision in this manner, the board is permitting lots to be built on without the Town having to own and maintain additional roads, which is a benefit to the Town. 3. Even though 2 of the lots are deficient at the road frontage, they are more than twice the required minimum area. CONDITIONS- 1. ONDITIONS:1. For lot 2, the width at the street line shall be no less than 22.5 feet, and the width at the required front yard setback shall be no less than 15 feet. 2. For lot 3, the width at the required front yard setback shall be no less than 27 feet. 3. The variance shall be subject to the following conditions of the Planning Board: a. submission for signing by the Chairman of the Planning Board of an original or mylar copy of the final subdivision plat and three dark-lined prints (Sheet 1 only), revised to reflect the statement in condition "h" below, and with revised sheet title to state "Final Subdivision Plat" and including the original signature and seal of the registered land surveyor, prior to filing with the Tompkins County Clerk's Office, and submission of a receipt of filing to the Town of Ithaca Planning Department, and b. submission of copies of the easement/maintenance agreement for the shared driveway, including reference to condition "h" below, for review and approval by the Attorney for the Town, prior to signing of the plat by the Chairman of the Planning Board, and C. submission of any water and sewer easements between Lots 1, 2, and 3, easement to Lot 1 to cross Lots 2 and 3 for sewer, easement to Lot 2 to cross Lot 3 for sewer, easement to Lot 2 to cross Lot 1 for water, for review by the Town Engineer and the Attorney for the Town, prior to the issuance of a building permit, and d. submission of a 20' sewer easement to the Town of Ithaca for the extension of the sewer main, for approval by the Town Engineer and the Attorney for the Town, prior to the issuance of a building permit, and 13 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES e. submission of record of application for and approval status of all necessary permits from county or state agencies, including but not limited to the Notice of Intent as per NYSDEC SPDES General Permit GP-02-01, and f. within six months of this approval, consolidation of Parcel A with the adjacent Tax Parcel No. 60-1-21 to the south, and submission to the Town Planning Department of a copy of the request to the Tompkins County Assessment Department for the consolidation, and g. No curb cuts shall be allowed on Wildflower Drive except for the one curb cut for the proposed common driveway, and revision of the subdivision map to note the prohibition, and h. Submission of a letter from the Ithaca City Fire Department indicating that fire and emergency service concerns have been adequately addressed prior to the signing of the plat by the Planning Board Chair, and i. No construction or disturbance of land shall occur within any of the 30 foot buffer shown on the map, along the outside perimeter of the subdivision, and j. The fire hydrant on Wildflower Drive to be moved south to a location approved by the Town Engineer. The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows: AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Krantz, Matthews NAYS: NONE The MOTION was declared to be carried. Chairperson Sigel—OK, Thank you. Mr. Herrick- Thank you. APPEAL of Cornell University, Appellant, Michael S. Husar, Agent, requesting a variance from the requirements of Chapter 225 of the Town of Ithaca Code, to be permitted to construct an Arthropod Research Facility without the installation of a Town required sprinkler system. The New York State Building Code would not 14 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES otherwise require such an installation. The property is located off of Game Farm Road, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 64.4-2, Planned Used Development Zone#9. Chairperson Sigel —Good evening, the next and final appeal we have this evening is that of Cornell University requesting a variance from the requirements of Chapter 225 of the Town Code, to be permitted to construct an Arthropod Research Facility without the installation of a Town required sprinkler system at Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 64.-1- 2, Planned Used Development Zone 49. Good evening. Michael Husar, Cornell Planning, Design, and Construction Mr. Husar - Good evening, my name is Michael Husar, I represent Cornell University in this request. I work at Cornell Planning, Design, and Construction. Our primary reason for having an arthropod research facility is to provide a quarantine containment area for the study and housing of exotic arthropods, basically bugs. We study non-native pests, as well as non-native natural enemies of pests that are both domestic and imports. The study is essentially done in isolation to avoid any unintended consequences of releasing these arthropods into the environment. One of the pests that recently came up into play was the Asian Longhorn Beetle, it actually has a letter or an article in today's Ithaca Journal, talking about the potential problem of having that released in the United States, and estimates the losses for the Eastern United States hardwood forests as being possibly in excess of $600 billion. So it's a real significant consequence to release an exotic arthropod into the environment. It's our hope that all of our designs for the quarantine will allow these to be contained. We meet all the federal and state requirements for quarantine facilities. And one of the issues that has come up is that we run the risk of release with an automatic suppression system, and that's why we're here to seek relief. One of the concerns is that an automatic suppression system could either cause an accidental release through either discharge that wasn't related to any fire incident, or it could be a fire incident in which we would prefer to have human judgment intervene rather than an automatic system. We looked at both the sprinkler systems and the alternatives as far as the Town law, we consider some of the alternative systems and found that none of them would really ensure that we would end up with a secure quarantine facility when we were done. Our proposal, as an alternative, is to provide a detection system, as opposed to a suppression system, our idea is that a fire alarm would provide quick response and ensure the safety of the researchers, so that we would make sure that in any sort of an incident that no one was inside. We have a security system that involves a keypad access, so there is a double opportunity there to make sure that no one is inside. The idea is that we would develop a protocol to guide our EH and S group, which would probably be first responder. And then following probably Ithaca Fire Department, to make sure that whatever areas are involved do not contain the arthropods in question. So really what we 15 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES have is potential for access to mechanical rooms, which would not be an issue, and public areas and lab areas, but we would be very concerned if we had our environmental rooms or equipment rooms inundated with water, either in terms of an automatic system or a fire department response. So, hence we are requesting that we receive relief from the sprinkler requirement. And that's all we have. I will entertain questions. Mr. Matthews —Yeah, I have a question. Explain to me how a water system will release these organisms into the environment. Mr. Husar - One of the concerns we have is that we are an isolated facility, where we have the potential for having an uncontrolled sprinkler release, essentially washing some of these arthropods onto the floor and possibly out the door when the doors are opened up. If we had a gaseous system, the concern would be that there would be enough pressure in the room to also open our seals and break the seals of the rooms. That is the primary concern. Mr. Matthews — Aren't these arthropods in enclosed enclosures or glass enclosures or something like that? Mr. Husar - they have a number of different enclosures. Primarily a type of enclosure that has a glove box type. Our researchers are concerned of any type of a release and that's primarily why they are concerned about it. Mr. Matthews —So then what happens when the firemen come in with their high-pressure hoses? Mr. Husar - Well, that's why I would ask for protocol with our EH&S coming in and determining which areas are involved. We have a proposal to provide an addressable fire alarm system, so that any first responders would know which areas are involved, and if they are involving the environmental rooms or the glove box rooms we would have to have a special procedure in effect to make sure that those weren't the ones that were sprayed. Mr. Matthews —So as I understand what you're saying now is you are essentially putting something in our midst that has the potential for severe damage to the local environment, is that right? Mr. Husar- If left uncontrolled, yes. Mr. Matthews —OK. And if you can't suppress the fire with water, then you are going to ask local firemen, or women, to come in to suppress the fire. And they in turn will release these potential pests to the environment. Did I read this correct? Mr. Husar - I think you are reading it correct in the sense that if there is a fire in the environmental chambers and they respond with water that is an issue. 16 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Matthews - So, I guess I come to the conclusion, unless you can convince me otherwise that there really is no way to stop the release of these pests, as you call them, into the environment should a fire hit that facility. Mr. Husar- Short of letting it burn out. Mr. Frost — That would be a question I would have, if I can interrupt here. There would be several elements of concern. First and foremost, I suppose, would be human beings in the building. And depending on what this protocol may be, which none of us know, and I don't think you know either at this point, at what point do we consider, does somebody consider getting people out of the building and just letting the building burn. We do have Tom Parsons, who is the Fire Marshall from the Fire Department here tonight too, so. I don't know what kind of decision would be made by Cornell or by the Fire Department to just let the building burn, if that came to be, though If I could ask the question then, at what point do we know that people get out of the building and we have no human life at risk, and therefore we only have the building and its insects to burn if that was the chosen method. So... Mr. Husar - That would be our EH&S first responders to determine that, well we would have our security system which would determine whether or not someone was logged into the system, and the opportunity, because of the way the quarantine is set up, they can actually step into the quarantine area and check around without actually releasing arthropods. Mr. Frost—What would be the potential for some grad student there trying, with a coffee can, get all the bugs into a can and knock it out of the building. Where will the line be drawn to be sure that people are out of the building,period? Mr. Husar - I think that if we had that sort of situation, that grad student wouldn't be a student, I mean they are very strict in terms of the quarantine. I guess I would also like to point out that we are Type II B construction, which is non-combustible, so the likelihood of it burning down is not very great. I think that because of the non-combustible construction, any event would be fairly contained. No fire is sure to be completely contained but we have sheetrock, block work, metal studs, any woodwork in the truss work is fire-retardant treated which is allowed by the code, so I would say that the risk of burndown is probably minimal. Chairperson Sigel — I'm still not quite clear, I get the impression that you don't really know what's going to happen if there is a fire in an area where there are arthropods, because you don't want to use water in there, either from an automatic system or from a firefighter, and so what is the plan there then? Mr. Husar- Well we have fire extinguishers, and I think that is one of our intents, is to try and find a non-water way of suppressing the fire with human intervention. One of the 17 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES goals is to be able to count the arthropods after they're done in terms of doing an actual count and making sure no one has escaped, so that's one of the reasons... Mr. Ellsworth — About what percentage of floorplan is these environmental chambers where arthropods are, is it a big percentage? Mr. Husar - Well, the environmental chambers are self-contained. They will be like big, I don't want to have to use the term refrigerated units, except there will be environmental controls — Mr. Krantz—Coolers, walk-in coolers? Mr. Husar - Big walk-in coolers. This equipment room will have individual glove boxes and those will be self-contained, that's if I were to worry about a room, that would probably be the one that would be most affected by release. And there may or may not be some opportunity in the glass houses to have some researcher with equipment, but beyond that the labs would not have any, during the unoccupied hours, the public area would not have any during unoccupied hours, and the mechanical room would not have any during unoccupied hours. Mr. Ellsworth—It's about a third of the floor area, counting the greenhouse. Mr. Frost—Michael, you said during occupied hours? Mr. Barney—Unoccupied hours. Mr. Husar - We were talking unoccupied hours, during occupied hours it's quite likely that researchers will bring arthropods from either the rearing rooms or the equipment room into the lab to perform whatever studies they're doing. Mr. Frost — So at some given time there could be bugs anywhere in the building other than the mechanical room. Mr. Husar - certainly anywhere in the quarantine area which is a good two-thirds of the space during occupied. Mr. Frost—Can you tell me, whether it be, and you may not deal with the medical school, but I'm sure another research facilities, whether they be viruses or bacteria, other kinds of evil little things, what kind of fire-suppression or what kind of building conditions are there that may be of interest to the board here. I mean I'm sure this is not the only time on Cornell where there is some high-tech quarantined area being used in research. Mr. Husar - I know I don't have the answer to that, I do know that in Duffield for example there are separate areas that have specific protocols as to how the fire is suppressed, and that's one area I know of that is fairly new on campus. 18 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Frost—Just for the board's information, the building code of New York State would not require the building to be sprinkled. The Town of Ithaca has its own regulation that requires sprinkler systems in all new buildings. Mr. Matthews — It seems to me that there are two problems here, at least I see two problems, and I don't have the best vision in the world. One is the suppression of the physical facility, the fire. And the second one, which I consider more important is the release of these organisms into the environment because of a fire. And trying to be as polite as I can possible be here, it doesn't seem that you've satisfied my fears for release of these organisms into the environment. The potential is there, you said it in the first paragraph. I'm willing to listen, but I haven't heard anything that satisfies my fears. Mr. Frost — But if we didn't have the sprinkler ordinance, they wouldn't be here. They would be constructing their academic research building and they would be putting bugs in there. Mr. Matthews —I understand that. Chairperson Sigel — Yeah, I think that while they sort of brought that up as an issue, I think unfortunately that, what they are saying is that by not having the sprinkler system that it's more secure from a release of arthropod standpoint. Mr. Matthews —I don't agree with that. Chairperson Sigel — OK, well, you may not agree with that, but that's what they're claiming, and— Mr. Matthews — I don't agree with that, I mean if you have openings in the building because of a fire, those bugs are going to get out, they are going to be released. [tape is flipped] Mr. Matthews — So if the fire is allowed to roar, those bugs are going to get out, if Murphy's Law has any meaning here. Chairperson Sigel — I mean I agree that it does seem theoretically possible, but I don't know that that is really our domain, I mean, they have obviously received permits from whatever agencies. Mr. Matthews — No, our domain is to protect the building and people's lives, and the follow-through of that is if we want to stretch it, and sometimes I stretch things when I argue. John? If we impact the economic health of the woodlots and so forth, we are certainly impacting human life. 19 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Chairperson Sigel—Say that again. Mr. Matthews — And if we allow those critters, as you might want to call them, escape into the environment, we are going to do that, so I say suppress the fire. Mr. Ellsworth —Well, those two cooler rooms, as I say, what is there that can burn there? You said the roof trusses are wood, but... Mr. Husar- They would be above that, so the coolers are self-contained. In the coolers... Mr. Ellsworth—What are the coolers... Mr. Husar - If I were to look for a fire in the coolers, I'd say probably the thing that would happen is the compressor, which might be, I think we've got them outside. Mr. Ellsworth—What is the cooler, is that metal? Mr. Husar- metal box. Ms. Kingsbury - It's a metal box, metal, metal walls, metal roof. Mr. Matthews —Are they alive or dead in the cooler? Mr. Ellsworth—They're arthropods. Mr. Matthews —Are the arthropods alive or dead in the cooler? Mr. Husar - They're alive. It's actually an environmental chamber that allows them to be grown in whatever temperature that they would be native to. Chairperson Sigel—It's not necessarily cold— Mr. Husar - That's right, if we're looking for a tropical area that has a lowest temperature in the 80's, we would generate a lowest temperature in the 80's for that particular room. Mr. Frost—Harry is your question really in regards to fire load? Mr. Ellsworth —Well, you're talking about fire and fire suppression, it doesn't sound like there is much that can burn. Mr. Frost—Right, so you're talking about fire load then, so I guess the question is that... Mr. Ellsworth—Yeah, I just want everyone to understand better what these... 20 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Frost — Right, if there were a sprinkler system in there and there was a fire, what would the sprinkler be extinguishing if there is not a significant fire load. I mean, it may extinguish paper, if there's no wood, there's no paper, there's no books, it's all metal stuff. Mr. Matthews —Is there a research lab in the building? Mr. Frost—I don't know. Mr. Husar - Yes, there is research being done, and those scientists will have those arthropods in their possession, not only in those coolers. Mr. Husar - that's right. But once their complete, they will be back in the chambers. It's a count, it's an internal protocol to make sure that those are all accounted for. Mr. Matthews —People do people things in a fire, and sometimes they forget something's hanging around. I'm not being foolish. Chairperson Sigel—I mean that's true though whether you have a sprinkler or not. Mr. Matthews —Well, but if the sprinkler's there, it will burn, it won't stop the fire. Chairperson Sigel — Well, that's true. And if the sprinkler is not there, presumably the fire will burn more. It's hard to know given any situation what will be better as far as the containment of the arthropods. Mr. Frost — The other element we are talking about is having a supervised fire alarm system, so you are going to get presumably early response too. Mr. Barney — What is it that Cornell is really worried about if it's so fireproof, why would it make a difference, a sprinkler's not likely to go off. Mr. Frost — But unless something's water tight, a discharge of water is going to conceivably carry everything out to an area that's not watertight. Mr. Barney—You've lost me. Mr. Frost—OK, let's say there's some reason the sprinkler system goes off... Mr. Barney—Right. Mr. Frost—And there's a bug and it's not entirely contained in some fashion because the area is not water tight, unless things are water tight, any discharge of water is conceivably going to mix with the bug and carry it to the path of least resistance, which might be out the door. 21 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Barney — If there's a fire, it will trigger a sprinkler system, and everyone's evacuating the building, the bugs are going to go out anyway, aren't they? Mr. Frost—With the water discharge. Mr. Barney—Well, forget about the water discharge. Mr. Frost—He's going to leave too when the fire alarm goes off? Mr. Barney—I would assume. Mr. Frost—He's going to open up the cage and get out? Mr. Barney — Well, how do you say the water is going to carry that cage, the cages are, should, bug-proof aren't they? I mean, that's the whole purpose of putting them in there. Mr. Husar- That's right. Chairperson Sigel — The risk, presumably, is mainly from some bug that is out for study or something, I mean more so than. I mean, the cages can presumably withstand the pressure of an overhead sprinkler. Maybe not a fire-hose, but you would think a sprinkler. Although I think in your letter you seem to imply that they possibly couldn't Mr. Frost—Are you the professor that wrote the letter, by any change? Ms. Kingsbury - Oh, no, I'm sorry. Mr. Husar-Pamela Kingsbury is with Egner Architects. Mr. Matthews — has Cornell ever considered using Block Island? I'm being facetious. Block Island is an island off of Long Island where they study contagious diseases. Mr. Husar- I was thinking that was Plum Island. Mr. Barney —Plum Island, that's even closer. How many people, I realize we have a lot of concerns about bugs here, buy let's go to people for a moment. How many people occupy this building at any one time, or will occupy it? Mr. Husar - A couple, three. Very sporadically. Researchers are there periodically to basically grow their critters and do their experiments and go back to the main campus. Mr. Barney — Can you tell me, because I don't seem to have that diagram in my packet, where the access and exits are for people? 22 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Husar - OK, from a public perspective and everyone's perspective, coming in the main vestibule into the main office is all the access. From that main office, going through the quarantine vestibule with interlocked doors, so that one door has to be closed before the other one will open and from that point, into the quarantine area, in which they have the rearing rooms and the labs. This door at the end and this door at the end are exclusively emergency exits, and would not be available to be opened from the outside, and would be interlocked so that if the fire alarm system went off that, then they would be allowed to open. Mr. Barney—Are they going to have crash-bars or anything like that? Mr. Husar - It will be a crash-bar that has the life safety 20 second release, so, us setting off the alarm in order to make sure that it can't be used on a regular basis. Chairperson Sigel—And is there no exit from the greenhouse area? Mr. Husar- Through the main area and then back through quarantine. Chairperson Sigel—There's no emergency exit in the greenhouse? Mr. Husar - If they came to emergency exit it would be through the two at either end of the building. Mr. Barney — So the only mode of egress... Let's assume a fire starts in one of the cooling rooms. The only way people could get out of the building would be to go straight out to the, as I'm looking at it, to the right, that would be an emergency exit. Mr. Husar- Yes. Mr. Barney—Or to go all the way back through that double interlocked... Chairperson Sigel—No, you can go directly. Mr. Barney — Can you go directly through that door there, or do you have to go through an interlocked door to get to that? Mr. Husar- Either one of those. Mr. Frost— Code allows for things such as travel distance when you have exit signs and so forth. So, if this was any type of building, you could have two exit doors and based upon the number of people occupying the building and the travel distance to the door, you could have two doors possibly in a building twice this size, even. That's maybe an exaggeration, but there's nothing that's being suggested here that violates any code. 23 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Matthews —According to your diagram there, your specimens are in one area of the complex, is that correct? Mr. Husar- That's correct. Mr. Matthews — OK, and you said in your application that the reason why, one of the reasons why you don't want a fire suppression system using water in the sprinklers is in fear of releasing those organisms. So, I'm sure the university has done a great deal of work towards understanding that end, so my question now is this is a new complex that you're going to construct, is that correct? Mr. Husar- That's correct. Mr. Matthews —Is there any possibility of separating the two sections of that complex, so that you can provide a sprinkler system in the area where people are predominantly working, and yet not have a sprinkler in the area where the specimens are maintained. In other words, a fire wall between the two areas. Ms. Kingsbury - I can see people all over this building at any one time. I would find it hard to actually divide it into a people space and a non-people space. Mr. Matthews —but their desks and their files and so forth are in one section. Ms. Kingsbury - Well, one front office is where we will have the desk and files and things. What will happen in the laboratories, is you have steel [inaudible] with counter tops, one simple little peninsula bench and a fume hood. Nobody is going to occupy this as an ongoing office, they are literally in and out. There is not even going to be anyone in this office, which is the main office on a full time basis. As Mike said, they come here infrequently, the don't anticipate more than a few people at any one point in time and they do what they need to do and then they go back to the campus. So, these are used by people, they come in and they do their whatever it is that they're doing in terms of their research and then they leave. And they may also occupy the greenhouse type structures as well for research purposes. These are actually plant-growth chambers. So they will occupy every space in the building. Mr. Matthews —So it's not possible to isolate it for fire suppression purposes, is that what you're saying? Mr. Frost —I don't think we should overlook the purpose of a sprinkler system. I mean, first and foremost I think you want to protect lives, and a sprinkler system in multi-story buildings or complicated building with high fire loads becomes a important element. It doesn't sound like in this particular case we have a very large fire load, we certainly don't have a large occupancy of people. The other element in terms of fire safety is protecting firefighters when they fight a fire. I don't know whether Tom Parsons in the back there is going to speak to this or not, and that's the other element. But I don't think 24 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES we should lose sight as to really what the sprinkler system is intended to do, and that's to protect human life. It certainly has a very positive significant application in multi-story buildings and buildings where there is sleeping and furniture stores and other kinds of things. This is just a research building. Mr. Matthews —I understand that, I understand that. But I'm trying to serve two masters here, I suppose, one is the isolation of these potentially dangerous organisms in a fire. And you've said that this is a cooler, which is kind of a difficult thing to burn. But the other areas don't have the specimens in them, so if there was a water suppression system in the rest of the area beside the coolers, then the sprinkler system's intent would be served. Mr. Frost—But they've already indicated that in at least two thirds of the building at any given time, a researcher might have a bug in another room beside the coolers. Chairperson Sigel —Let's take a break for a moment, and invite our guest, who has been waiting very patiently to speak. At this point we will open the public hearing, sir, please. You could actually come to the microphone on the end, if you want. Chairperson Sigel opens the public hearing at 8:01 p.m. Mr. Parsons - I brought a letter to the board, I apologize if I'm short a couple. Chairperson Sigel—That's OK. Tom Parsons, Ithaca Fire Department My name's Tom Parsons, I'm the assistant chief of the Ithaca Fire Department, also the department's fire Marshall. Those of you probably remember Ray Wheaton, well, I've inherited his job since he retired. Anyways, I wanted to speak to this facility and as far as this variance. On the upfront, I said, we could be supportive of this variance, we've met with Cornell and talked with them. However, there are some things I think that need to be addressed. And what I didn't put in the letter and I will tell you right up front, is that I question the opinion about whether the sprinkler system would cause more harm than good. I stated it in my letter, my concerns relative to the water. Water is really an issue, because if there is a fire and the fire department arrives, our normal action or methodology for extinguishing fires is using water. And we are generally going to be using 6 times the amount of water that a sprinkler system would be using. The other point I wanted to make is that fire detection and fire suppression systems are really there for when no one is there. It's like smoke detector in your home, you know, you smell the toast burning and you react to it and go put it out. But if you're sleeping at night and something is burning, the smoke detector says hey, something is burning and it alerts you. The same thing is with the alarm system in this building, the idea is if there 25 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES was a researcher in working in the building and they smelled smoke, they saw maybe something smoldering, a piece of equipment malfunctioning, they'd unplug it and the problem would go away. What happens is, what happens when no one is there? And Harry mentioned about the Fire load, and yeah, I've looked at what they've proposed as far as equipment and things in these buildings as far as not a lot of fire load, however, it doesn't take a lot to cause a lot of damage. Things like computer meltdowns, they're talking about these coolers, which are really environmental control units, they have thermostats, and they have to not just keep things cool, but they have to keep things warm, and so there is kind of this balance. If there is any type of failure within that cooler, certainly a problem could occur. What we're looking for, and again, I'm using the Town's ordinance as a little bit of a tool here, that we would be supportive of the variance, provided that Cornell devises a fire control and extinguishment plan for this facility, and I'm talking about not just for Environmental Health and Services Unit, but I'm talking about a department plan for the department that's running the arthropod... A plan saying OK, if something's going on, should we let it burn or should we not let it burn, and if they want to protect it, what do we want to extinguish it, if water's bad, then what shall we use with it? So what I wanted to see Cornell provide is a plan for addressing the extinguishment and control of the fire. If we're not going to rely on the sprinkler system. Secondly, if this plan involved any type of alternative extinguishing agents or systems that are not something the department is used to, we would expect that the university would provide those agents or extinguishment systems as well as provide the training that goes along with using them. Because these are specialized labs. The worst thing we want to do is open up a door and let some environmental hazard out that is going to ruin our environment. We all live around here and that's, we don't want to see that happen either. And the other question which Andy brought up, you know, if the University prefers no fire control or extinguishment, you know, if we arrive and for some reason there is a large fire going on in there, and the only way to contain it is to open both doors up and go in with hoses and that's more hazardous to the environment than if we let it burn up. If that's the decision, then I think the University needs to communicate that very clearly to both the Town and the Fire Department upfront as part of that plan so that we all know what our jobs are supposed to be. And I have a little bit of difficulty with Cornell saying you know "EH&S will arrive and will make decisions". Well, at 2:00 in the morning, it's one guy and he's not in the management or decision making tree at EH&S, trust me, and he's going to be making phone calls. 2:00 in the morning in a fire situation, I know who's going to be making the decisions. It's going to be people of my rank in the fire department who are going to be called upon, and they are going to have to make some decisions. The best thing to do is to have these decisions made ahead of time before we get this situation. And hopefully we won't have any problems and everything will go fine. Bur if something happens, we want the plan there. If they want special extinguishment agents to do the work, then they need to provide them and they need to 26 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES provide the training. So, what I am suggesting here is that you know, the variance could be granted, but if you do choose to grant it, then I would strongly encourage to add these items to your list, and both contingencies as part of the variance. Mr. Barney — Can we really get away with saying, Cornell does not want any fire extinguishment at all,just to leave it alone. I'm a little concerned there from the legality from the Town's and so far as the City Fire Department is acting as our surrogate there... Mr. Parsons - You mean, number 3? Mr. Barney—Yeah, I mean number 3. Mr. Parsons - Yeah, I put the Town of Ithaca and the Fire Department. Mr. Barney—I saw that, but I'm not at all certain that I would be comfortable saying that or accepting somebody saying "we don't want anything..." Mr. Parsons - And that's why I put it in those terms, in that, I think that Marty Luster would certainly want to look at, because we, the fire department of the City of Ithaca, has a contract with the Town to provide fire service. So, I think we would have to be agreeable, and I think it has to come, somebody from Cornell says we want to let a building burn, and I think that you and Marty and the fire chief and higher ups at Cornell need to sit down and have a discussion since what does that really mean, and what happens in that case, because I can tell you, being out there at 2:00 in the morning, it's not the time to make that decision. We may have to make decision, because of the environmental hazards, or the health hazards to the firefighters, that we might have to let... Mr. Frost — But the question even beyond just this insect building, is there's got to be some areas, not just at Cornell but at any other university or research area where there are bio-chemical things. The hospital, for example, there are certain hazardous things where there's a very specific protocol in dealing with fires. It seems to me this is not the first time Cornell's had to address this kind of situation. Mr. Parsons - Well in other labs where we have systems where we deal with containment. There's some of that where they do the West Nile Virus research and that goes on up there on Hungerford hill and they have a containment lab up there, I mean this is not a unique facility. But we're talking about little itty-bitty things that can get out of a door, it's not like some animal or Petri dish is going to escape out. To me, arthropods are a little different, I mean I don't have a full understanding of how they're kept and how they're handled, because I've never seen them personally, so I'm only going by what I can imagine, I think we're probably all in that boat here. Mr. Frost — What I'm saying is the bugs aren't as bad as the viruses, the bacteria, those organisms that you can't even see, that go with, that are airborne. That's what I was 27 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES saying, I don't understand why Cornell hasn't addressed this sort of thing with some of their other research. I do agree with all the points that Tom makes, and I think Cornell was alluding to having some plan approved, though it sounds like to the Board, Cornell was going to just have Environmental Health deal with this. And Mike, I think, clearly I think the Town and the Fire Department in particular need to be involved in those kinds of decision-making processes. It sounds to me, though, and you talk about item number 2 in your letter, Town, Alternative Fire Extinguishing Systems, Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, you're not proposing any kind of extinguishing systems. Mr. Husar-Not automatic, no. Mr. Frost — So it really sounds like number 3 with regard to your letter Tom, is really what this board needs to address. Mr. Parsons - As far as number 2, I was thinking more because Cornell is looking at Manual Systems, I'm talking about manual extinguishing agents, such as a specialized cart with a specialized agent, that's something that we wouldn't necessarily be familiar with. If they want to put something that's going to not only extinguish the fire but kill all the bugs in there, that's a whole pother batter, and I guess.... Mr. Barney — Let me ask a question, how would they? If there's a fire in there, what would, what did you say EH and? Mr. Husar - Well, I guess what I was stating initially was the protocol would have to determine where the fire is, and if the fire is in the mechanical room there is no issue. If the fire is in the public area, no issue. If we're talking about a fire in the environmental chambers, well where would the fire in the environmental chambers be, well probably not in the chambers but on the compressing unit on top of it. So, I think that's where the decision tree would result... Mr. Barney—So let's assume it's on the top of the building. Ms. Kingsbury - Well, actually the compressors are outdoors, remote from the chambers. Mr. Barney—Well, somehow or other it's affecting the chambers. Mr. Frost—An electrical fire, at the bottom line an electrical fire. Mr. Barney—Yeah, an electrical fire, that's a good point, a good possibility. How would that fire be fought? What would be done? Mr. Frost — I think the question is, what's going to be burning, and maybe Tom you can answer that question best, I mean if it's metal studs then there's little. 28 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Parsons - I guess that's the question, because I don't have full awareness of all of what this equipment looks like, what it's components are. I guess what I'm trying to allude to here is because we don't know everything that, as this project moves forward, that Cornell needs to come up with a plan that addresses, what happens if we have a fire in this room? What will be the procedure to manage the problem, and again, number 3, I hope we don't ever get to the number 3 solution, but again, it's one of those things that might be the solution. Mr. Frost — I understand completely where you're coming from, and I guess maybe I'm asking you to correct me if I'm wrong, and assuming this is a Type 11 B and it's non- combustible type construction and there's little if any fire load. If there was an electrical fire, what can we anticipate that would be a rip roaring fire that would be significant, and I'm not sure that there would be. Mr. Parsons - We'd probably go at it with Type C extinguishers or Class C extinguishers, as opposed to water, would be my guess. Mr. Frost — In terms of something actually supporting a flame, you've got metal studs, you've got insulation. Mr. Barney—Well, you've got plastic containers, don't you, what are these bugs kept in? Ms. Kingsbury - Some of them can be kept in containers with mesh screens, it doesn't necessarily have to be a container that is made out of plastic or glass. Mr. Barney—But in the cooling room. Ms. Kingsbury - In the cooling room, I would find it difficult to believe that anything would burn up in there. Mr. Barney—But, I mean, what kind of containers would they be in in there? Ms. Kingsbury - It could be a screened enclosure, it could be a glass enclosure, I don't really know each of the plastic types that they're going to provide. Mr. Barney — I thought I heard somebody say something about those glove kinds of things where you reach in, aren't those basically plastic? Ms. Kingsbury - They could be plastic, they could be glass, yes? Mr. Matthews —May I ask a question, or make a suggestion? I sense, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there really hasn't been any communication between Cornell University and it's representatives and the fire department, and if that is true, then I'd like to suggest that the application of Cornell University to the Board of Appeals be placed in abeyance until the two parties can get together and come up with a solution to the myriad of 29 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES questions that we've had this evening, rather than us continue to go back and forth like we are. Mr. Krantz —And these concerns have to be presented in a very low-key public relations matter because Cornell can simply put in a sprinkler system and put the building up, they don't need our approval. Chairperson Sigel —That's true. I agree with you Dick, I think essentially in that we are being asked to give a variance so that you do not have to put in a sprinkler system, and, while I'm sort of hesitant to get into the argument about whether a sprinkler system is good or bad as far as the arthropods escaping, that is your rationale, and it doesn't seem like you have really a plan that appears any better than just having a sprinkler system to us, as far as putting out a fire. I mean, you haven't, if you said our policy is just to let the building burn, at least that would be a clear policy that we can weight against requiring a sprinkler system. But it seems like you've said someone from Cornell Staff is going to show up at 2:00 in the morning, and as Mr. Parsons pointed out, you know, that person's not likely to be an expert in this building, and it's probably going to be the men with big hoses who win the argument as to what to do unless there's a really clear plan in place, and once people start spraying, there's going to be water all over the place and there are going to be doors open. Mr. Parsons - If I could just, I apologize, I don't mean to interrupt, one thing that I don't think has been addressed, the all the concern this has windows in it, if there was any substantial, and it would have to have quite a bit of high heat involved, but if there was heat involved, windows were broken because of a fire, certainly that would be a means for the arthropods to escape I would assume. So this is not... I think to me there's a lot of questions to be asking. And also I just want to correct that we have met with Cornell, we are not the authority having jurisdiction here, they've come to us, they've showed us the plans and we said yeah, but... and we've had this conversation, but we haven't got the answers to the questions that we have here. The Town of Ithaca is the authority having jurisdiction as far as Code Enforcement, that's why I'm here tonight saying OK, we could support their application here, but we'd like to have as contingency to their variance that these items be included. I don't know that, how much you want to be involved in whatever the plan is that we come up with on handling it. Mr. Frost — I think it is relevant, I think both the board is asking the same questions you're asking and I don't think any of us have the answers yet, so I don't whether Mike you want to consider asking for an adjournment. I do have a place to put you on September's meeting, I could put you in first in fact, in that time frame I don't know if that is suitable for the plans for this project, but perhaps you can come back to the board with more detailed answers, and more so, bring someone from the arthropod research facility who can answer some of these questions, if they were here tonight maybe we'd have those answers or some of them. Mr. Barney—Mike, have you ever seen how one of these sprinkler heads works? 30 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Husar-Not, not... Mr. Barney — It's really quite impressive, the fire department was kind enough to bring one, they have a trailer that they come around and do a demonstration with... yeah, it was quite a while back, but they brought it and it was fascinating to see this thing go off, and immediately you can stand inside a really short trailer, 15 foot, 10 foot trailer, you can stand at one end, the fire starts at the other end, before you feel the heat, the fire's out. Mr. Frost — Well, wait a second, I was sitting inside that trailer and the flames were coming up out of the trashcan. Mr. Barney — Let me finish. And it's a fairly narrow area that it operates in, not every head goes off, the only head that goes off is the one that's being triggered by the heat so the area where the water goes is fairly limited and if it puts out the fire that's the end of it. Other's may be triggered if there is continuous heat, but the fear that I once had for sprinklers is the same thing that all of those valuable computers and that sort of stuff would swoosh. Now I've come to the mind that if I've got a computer that's going haywire and it's firing off enough heat to set that thing off, I want it to go off there, because it's going to mean the rest of my office is going to get burned out before the fire department can get there and do something about it. So the fear of these things, I think is sometimes overstated, so I would throw that into the mix in terms of thinking... Mr. Frost—I would think Mike understands how the sprinkler works and I think the issue is there is a reasonable deluge of water with pretty good pressure that would wash those bugs out. Mr. Barney—Depending on where it is. Mr. Frost — But you're not going to have just one sprinkler head in a building, you're looking for... Mr. Barney—No, no, no, I understand, but it seems to me that one of the suggestions that has been made is we can talk about putting sprinkler heads in areas other than where the cooling facility is or the environmental facility. But even in there, I'm not so sure I would be terribly worried about it. But, the alternative would be a 6-inch hose pouring water in. Mr. Parsons - 2 inch hose at about 150 gallons a minute. Sprinkler head flows 25 gallons a minute max. Mr. Barney—The hose will take a lot more out of that area. Chairperson Sigel — Well, I think that, well, obviously we're not qualified to make a determination whether it's safe or not safe to have a sprinkler system or not and I think 31 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES we're even less qualified to evaluate whether what is the greater or lesser risk to arthropod escapism, but I think in granting the variance, we do need to have some feeling that your alternative is a reasonable one, and if you were making the argument that, I mean we had not that long ago a raptor application for the raptor building, and there they made a rather simple argument that you know, it was a largely open building and they didn't have the facilities there and it was very cost prohibitive, and based on that rationale, we granted a variance. You know, in this case, I'm really not convinced of the rationale, it's not to say that I don't think you can be convincing, but it just, without a plan, it's not clear that no sprinkler is better than a sprinkler. So, if it's, I presume that, when I was out there today I saw that construction had already begun, I would presume that they could continue, right, without the variance? Mr. Frost — Right, I mean either they get the variance and they don't put the system in, and they put an alternative in, or they put the sprinkler system in. Chairperson Sigel—Right so, would it be OK for you to come back to the next meeting? Mr. Husar - That's not a problem, as long as we are allowed to proceed, but we understood that we couldn't come out of the ground, we had the site work, and well, I guess that was our understanding, we basically were allowed to do the site... Mr. Frost — Well that was based on other issues regarding building I think, if this is, we have a lot of projects going on with Cornell, but you couldn't come out of the ground because we hadn't gotten some other issues resolved yet, and in fact we are having a meeting with a variety of people, John Keefe and others from PDC in another week or so, but that's got nothing to do with this variance. Chairperson Sigel—So they can continue? Mr. Frost—Yes. Well, all other things being equal, as far as the sprinkler variance being adjourned for another month, that should not slow down any progress that you hoped to make... Mr. Husar- We'll see you in September. Mr. Frost — My expertise and my understanding of what they're asking for and what is out there with alternatives and so forth, I have the feeling that you give us the proper information, this board probably will have the information it needs to give you a decision in your favor. I can't speak for the board, but, I don't think you're asking for anything unreasonable, we just want some... Mr. Barney—When are you retiring? Chairperson Sigel —OK, I will move to adjourn the appeal of Cornell University until the September meeting of the Zoning Board. 32 TOWN OF ITHACA ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS AUGUST 15, 2005 APPROVED MINUTES Mr. Matthews —Second. Chairperson Sigel—All in favor? ZB RESOLUTION NO. 2005- 041: Cornell University, Appellant, Michael S. Husar, Agent, Game Farm Road, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 64.-1-2, Planned Used Development Zone #9. MOTION made by Kirk Sigel, seconded by Dick Matthews. RESOLVED that this Board adjourns the appeal of Cornell University to the September meeting of the Town of Ithaca Zoning Board of Appeals. The vote on the MOTION resulted as follows: AYES: Sigel, Ellsworth, Krantz, Matthews NAYS: NONE The MOTION was declared to be carried. Chairperson Sigel—OK, thanks. Oh yes, close the public hearing. Chairperson Sigel closes the public hearing at 8:23 p.m. Chairperson Sigel — Thank you, Tom. Any other official business? No, OK, we're adjourned. Chairperson Sigel adjourns the meeting at 8:24 p.m. Kirk Sigel, Chairperson John Coakley, Deputy Town Clerk 33