HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB Minutes 2006-12-05FILES
DATE 17.--,7,,-
REGULAR MEETING
TOWN OF ITHACA PLANNING BOARD
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 5, 2006
215 NORTH TIOGA STREET, ITHACA NY 14850
The Town of Ithaca Planning Board met in regular session on Tuesday, December
51 2006,. at the Town Hall, 215 North Tioga Street, Ithaca, New York, at 7:00 p.m.
PRESENT
Fred Wilcox, Chairperson; Eva Hoffmann, Board Member; George, Conneman,
Board Member; Tracy Mitrano, Board Member; Larry Thayer, Board Member; Kevin
Talty, Board Member.
STAFF
Jonathan Kanter, Director of Planning; Daniel Walker, Director of Engineering;
Susan Brock, Attorney for the Town; Paulette Neilsen, Deputy Town Clerk.
OTHERS PRESENT
Stacey Whitney, 200 West Hill Circle; David Brewster, Holt Architects; Grace
Chiang, Holt architects; Ann Byrne, Hopkins Road; Harry Ellsworth, Honess Lane;
Mary Jo Yanis, 740 Larchmont Road, Elmira; Ingrid.Zabel, Honess Lane
CALL TO ORDER
Chairperson Wilcox declares the meeting duly opened at 7:03 p.m., and accepts for
the record Secretary 's Affidavit of Posting and Publication of the Notice of Public
Hearings in Town Hall and the Ithaca Journal on November 27, 2006 and November
29, 2006, together with the properties under discussion, as appropriate, upon the
Clerks of the City of Ithaca and the Town of Danby, upon the Tompkins County
Commissioner of Planning, upon the Tompkins County Commissioner of Public
Works, and upon the applicants and /or agents, as appropriate, on November 29,
2006,
Chairperson Wilcox states the Fire Exit Regulations to those assembled, as required
by the New York State Department of State, Office of Fire Prevention and Control.
PERSONS TO BE HEARD
At 7:03 p.m. Chairperson Wilcox invited any member of the audience wishing to
address the Board on matters not on the agenda to come forward. If you are here
and wish to speak at some point with regard tot the sketch plan review for the
proposed hotel on East Hill, we will give you a chance to speak at that time, even
though it is not a Public Hearing. There was no one present wishing to address the
Board. Closed at 7:04 p.m.
Chairperson Wilcox opens the next Agenda item at 7:05 p.m.
SEQR Determination: Overlook at West Hill Light Fixtures, West Hill Circle.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 2
Grace Chiang and David Brewster or Holt Architects
Ms. Chiang — I understand that you all looked at this light fixture at the last meeting,
so we've come back and this is the fixture that we are proposing. I gather you have
seen it lit? Is that true? (nods from Board) So I guess I would just entertain any
questions, I don't know if there is anything specifically...) think that this fixture meets
all of the requirements that you guys talked about last time. It's got a top on it so
there is no light coming out of the top, the lamp is recessed up into the cone with a
cylinder, and the maximum lumens is probably at 800 which is similar to what we
talked about a month ago...with a 75watt bulb. The owner actually plans on installing
a 65 -watt bulb now, rather than putting something brighter but the maximum that it
will take before it burns out is a 75 and that would be at 800 lumens.
Chairperson Wilcox — I think that most of the audience knows, but just in case, Ann
is pointing at the wooden structure with the light fixture attached. I believe the light
fixture is at essentially the same height as it would be on the structures on the
buildings.
Mr. Brewster — Yes, in fact all of the exterior, building mounted fixtures will now be
this so that all the on- building fixtures will now be completely shielded.
Chairperson Wilcox — Questions with regard to the Environmental Review?
Ann, I will give you a chance to speak when we go to the Public Hearing. I don't
think it is necessary at this point.
Mr. Brewster — That actually, all of the lights in the Overlook Project, the on- building
lights will be that light right there. So it will be a fully shielded light. For all Overlook,
all buildings in the or on the Overlook Project, will be that.
Board Member Conneman — Including the newer ones?
Mr. Brewster — Correct.
Board Member Conneman — Good, just to get that on the record.
Stacey Whitney, Overlook at West Hill
The light she is talking about is on the ACV building, which is the Town's light.
Board Member Talty — The what building?
Mr. Whitney — The ACV, Altitude Control Building. I think the Town put a light on
that. That's the light. The only lights we have are the lights on the building...
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 3
Ann Byrne, Hopkins Road
Thank you for that clarification. I appreciate that. So, I guess I would want that light
looked at too, because it's new and its bright. The one he was talking about by the
water tower, do you know about that one.
Mr. Walker — Actually, if the light was on the design that was prepared by the
applicant ... actually ... the pump station was built as part of the approval process for
the water main extension, I wasn't aware that there was a light on it but I will check
into that.
Ms. Byrne — Okay. I will just check with you on that and I think those lights are
great. That's a really nice improvement.
Chairperson Wilcox — Do you want to see it on?
Ms. Byrne — Well I tried to and it didn't work today.
Mr. Kanter — We replaced the bulb.
Ms. Byrne — Sure, let's see. (Light was turned on and complimented.)
ADOPTED RESOLUTION PB RESOLUTION NO. 2006 -115
SEQR: OVERLOOK AT WEST HILL
SITE PLAN MODIFICATION - LIGHTING
TAX PARCEL NO'S. 24 -4 -14.23 AND 24 -4 -14.24
200 WEST HILL CIRCLE
MOTION made by Board Member Larry Thayer and seconded by Board Member
George Conneman.
WHEREAS.
1. The Town of Ithaca Planning Board is considering Preliminary and Final Site
Plan approval for a modification to the Overlook at West Hill development
located off Trumansburg Road on West Hill Circle, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel
No's. 244-14.23 and 24 -4- 14.24, Multiple Residence Zone. The modification
includes replacing all previously installed, unshielded wall mounted light
fixtures in the Phase 1 a development with new fully shielded light fixtures and
to also install these lights on buildings in the Phase lb apartment
development. The installed light fixtures are decorative in nature, but do not
conform with the site plan approved by the Planning Board on April 20, 2004
(PB Resolution No. 2004 -032), which included shielded, full cutoff light
fixtures to prevent unnecessary glare and light spillage. The installed lights
are standard wall pack lights that are not shielded. The replacement fixtures
will be consistent with the original Planning Board approval. Overlook at
West Hill, LP, Owner; David Brewster, Agent, and
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 14
2. The proposed site plan modification is an unlisted action for which the Town
of Ithaca Planning Board, is acting as lead agency in environmental review
with respect to Site Plan Approval and modifications thereof, and
3. The Planning Board, on December 5, 2006, was reviewed and accepted as
adequate a Short Environmental Assessment Form (EAF) Part 1, submitted by
the applicant, and Part II prepared by Town Planning .staff, and other
application materials, and
4. The Town Planning staff has recommended a negative determination of
environmental significance with respect to the proposed site plan
modification,
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED:
That the Town of Ithaca Planning Board hereby makes a negative determination of
environmental significance based on the information in the EAF Part I and for the
reasons set forth in the EAF Part 11 in accordance with the New York State
Environmental Quality Review Act and Chapter 148 Environmental Quality Review
of the Town of Ithaca Code for the above referenced action as proposed, and,
therefore, neither a Full Environmental Assessment Form nor an Environmental
Impact Statement will be required.
A vote on the motion resulted as follows:
AYES: Wilcox, Hoffmann, Conneman, Thayer, Mitrano, Howe, and Talty.
NAYS: None. .
The Motion was declared to be carried unanimously.
Board Member Hoffmann — Can I just say that I think as good neighbors, we, as the
Town, should make sure that there's no light on our structures that create glare.
Chairperson Wilcox — That's what Dan said he is going to do
Mr. Walker — I wasn't aware that there was a light on it, but they just installed the
electricity in the past couple of weeks and it's possible that the original design had a
security light in there. If there is a security light on, we will have it turned off unless
we have to work on something at night up there. So, we'll take care of making sure
the light is not on, if there is a light on it.
Board Member Hoffmann — You look into it and make sure it doesn't create glare.
Mr. Walker — The only time it would create glare is if we needed it on for emergency
repairs during the night up there and it would only be on while they are working up
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 5
there. If we are working up there, there are probably more bright lights with
headlights and everything, in the middle of the night. But it would be short duration.
Chairperson Wilcox announces the next Agenda Item at 7:1 1 p.m.
PUBLIC HEARING: Consideration of Preliminary and Final Site Plan approval
for a modification to the Overlook at West Hill development located off
Trumansburg Road on West Hill Circle, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No.'s 24 -4-
14.23 and 24 -4- 14.24, Multiple Residence Zone. The modification includes
replacing the previously installed unshielded wall pack lights at all exterior
doorways and porches in the Phase 1a development with new fully shielded
wall mounted light fixtures. The installed light fixtures are decorative in
nature, but do not conform with the site plan approved by the Planning Board
on April 20, 2004 (PB Resolution No. 2004 -032), which included shielded, full
cutoff light fixtures to prevent unnecessary glare and light spillage. The
modification would also apply to all buildings in the Phase 1 b development.
Overlook at West Hill, LP, Owner; David Brewster, Anent.
Chairperson Wilcox invites the public to speak. There being no one, the Public
Hearing was closed at 7:12 p.m.
Ms. Brock — I have some clean up language on paragraph A of the resolution;
substitute the text that is currently in paragraph A with the following: the Applicant
shall us progress lighting catalog #p5712 -31 light fixtures or comparable, fully
shielded, wall- mounted light fixtures rated at a maximum light wattage of 75 watts.
Add a new paragraph D, that all other conditions of Planning Board Resolution No.
2004 -032 remain in effect.
ADOPTED RESOLUTION PB RESOLUTION NO. 2006- 116
OVERLOOK AT WEST HILL
SITE PLAN MODIFICATION= LIGHTING
TAX PARCEL NO'S. 24 -4 -14.23 AND 244-14.24
200 WEST HILL CIRCLE
MOTION made by Board Member Rod Howe and seconded by Board Member
Kevin Talty
WHEREAS:
1. The Town of Ithaca Planning Board is considering Preliminary and Final Site
Plan approval for a modification to the Overlook at West Hill development
located off Trumansburg Road on West Hill Circle, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel
No's. 24 -4 -14.23 and 244- 14.24, Multiple Residence Zone. The modification
includes replacing all previously installed, unshielded wall mounted light
fixtures in the Phase 1 a development with new fully shielded light fixtures and
to also install these lights on buildings in the Phase lb apartment
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 6
development. The installed light fixtures are decorative in nature, but do not
conform with the site plan approved by the Planning Board on April 20, 2004
(PB Resolution No. 2004 -032), which included shielded, full cutoff light
fixtures to prevent unnecessary glare and light spillage. The installed lights
are standard wall pack lights that are not shielded. The replacement fixtures
will be consistent with the original Planning Board approval. Overlook at
West Hill, LP, Owner; David Brewster, Agent, and
5. The proposed site plan modification is an unlisted action for which the Town
of Ithaca Planning Board, acting as lead agency in environmental review with
respect to Site Plan Approval and modifications thereof, has on December 5,
2006, made a negative determination of environmental significance, after
having reviewed and accepted as adequate a Short Environmental
Assessment Form Part I, submitted by the applicant, and a Part II prepared
by Town Planning staff, and
6. The Planning Board, after holding a public hearing on December 5, 2006, has
reviewed and accepted as adequate application materials, including a cover
letter from the applicant, cut -sheet details and photometric specifications of
the proposed substitute lights (Progress Lighting, Catalog Number P5712 -31),
and other application materials,
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED:
1. That the Town of Ithaca Planning Board hereby grants a modification of the
previously approved site plan for wall- mounted lights for Tax Parcel No's. 24-
4 -14.23 and 24 -4 -14.24 for the Phase 1 a and Phase 1 b Overlook at West Hill
Apartments, conditioned upon the following:
a. That the applicant shall use Progress Lighting, Catalog Number
P5712 -31 light fixtures, or comparable, fully - shielded wall mounted
light fixtures, rated at a maximum lamp wattage of 75 watts, and
b. That the currently installed, unshielded wall mounted light fixtures be
removed and replaced with the above - referenced light fixtures on each
building in the Phase 1 a development to the satisfaction of the Director
of Planning prior to the issuance of any final certificates of occupancy
for any Phase 1 a buildings, and
C, That no final certificate of occupancy shall be issued for any Phase 1 b
building until and unless the above - referenced lighting fixtures are
installed on the building that is the subject of the request for a final
certificate of occupancy, and
d. That all other conditions of Planning Board Resolution, No. 2004 -032
remain in effect.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 7
A vote on the motion resulted as follows:
AYES: Wilcox, Hoffmann, Conneman, Thayer, Mitrano, Howe, and Talty.
NAYS: None,
The Motion was declared to be carried unanimously.
Chairperson Wilcox — Before you go, I want to first chastise you for putting up those
wall packs, but second, I want to thank you for responding so quickly, taking the
chance of putting these up on the Community Center before it was approved, and
then bringing this little display unit in so we could see it. That's much appreciated.
Board Member Conneman -- You are good neighbors.
Chairperson Wilcox opens the Public Hearing at 7:15 p.m.
PUBLIC HEARING: Consideration of a Recommendation to the Town of Ithaca
Town Board regarding a local law amending Chapter 270 of the Code of the
Town of Ithaca titled "Zoning" regarding the use of Planning Board alternate
members.
Briefly, the Town Law, at this point, does permit the Town Board to appoint two
alternate members to the Planning Board. They could serve only under limited
circumstances, as outlined in the law. The Codes and Ordinances Committee has
recommended to the Town Board and they referred it to us, a proposed change to
the Zoning that would essentially allow appointed alternate members to serve when,
a Planning Board Member was unable to whether it was a conflict of interest or and
absence that evening or whatever... Susan... anything you want to say at this point?
Ms. Brock — No, I think Christine's Memo explained the rationale for the proposed
changes.
Chairperson Wilcox — Jonathan... anything?
Mr. Kanter — There was some discussion at Codes and Ordinances whether we
should do this parallel law for the Planning Board even though there are no
currently- appointed alternate members and the committee felt that it was important
to have both provisions in the Zoning Ordinance equal and up-to -date so that if the
Town Board did decide, ever, to appoint alternates to the Planning Board, the
language would be there in place..
Chairperson Wilcox — As they have done for the Zoning Board and who are actually
attending meetings and sitting in when members are unable to vote.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 8
Board Member Conneman — Let me be the devil's advocate. The issue is that we
have only had one case in over 7 years that I have been on the Board where we
needed, where we might have needed an alternate. Instead we appointed
someone, okay. That was Rod. That was in the case of Burger King or the Moore
House or all the messy things around that. We are a Board of seven; they are a
Board of five. It makes a heck of a lot of difference. The other thing is, I want to
clarify that this ordinance covers the fact that the only people you could appoint are
people who have actually sat through the discussions of whatever the proposal is
they're going to vote. Because it seems to me it is difficult to come in in the middle
of a conversation and know ... you can read the minutes but I think you have to have
a feel for what went on at the meeting. I don't know if that was discussed in Codes
and Ordinances.
The other thing is that it seems to be that at least one thing in here that I really object
to is if I as Planning Board Member, decide to abstain, this means that Fred could
appoint someone else to take away my abstention? That's what it says.,.
Board Member Mitrano Where?
Board Member Conneman — Abstain. Whereas. Unwilling to vote because of a
conflict of interest or abstention. We ought to be able to abstain. It seems to me.
Otherwise, you are messing with the nature of the Board.
Board Member Mitrano — Well ... what's wrong with that? If you can not vote,
because of a conflict of interest, recusal, absence, or abstention:...
Board Member Conneman — All I am saying is because... lot's of times we abstain on
this Board, for a reason.
Board Member Mitrano — You have abstained many times for what seem to be sort
of political reasons.
Board Member Conneman — Well thank you Tracey for that interpretation. I think
you are wrong on that, l don't do things politically on this Board.
Board Member Mitrano — Well, whatever. Maybe I used the wrong word
Board Member Conneman -- You used the wrong word, and I will let you apologize
to me for that one.
Board Member Mitrano -- Yeah, I am sorry if that's the wrong word, but you have
abstained when you're here, rather than when you are absent. Is the only point
was trying to make.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 9
Board Member Conneman it ... I want to know what that abstention means.
Abstention to me means, if I abstain, Fred says well, we don't want George's vote to
affect anything so he appoints someone else. Is that right Susan?
Ms. Brock — Well, if you abstain it doesn't count as a positive vote that one would
need ... you need four votes for any motion to pass...
Board Member Conneman — Would you rather l vote against something?
Ms. Brock — Pardon, no ... YOU 're not voting, your abstaining. You personally are not
voting.
Board Member Talty - So I don't think it means that at any given meeting, George, if
you abstain, suddenly Fred has the option — Oh, I'm going to pull this alternative
Planning Board Member up, I mean, if somebody is at a meeting and abstains, then
that's not the issue of an Alternative Board Member.
Board Member Mitrano — But if in advance, you announce that I'm going to abstain
from this vote, for whatever reason, ...
Board Member Talty — For example, later on this evening, I will be doing that.
Board Member Conneman — No, you will be recusing yourself, you will not be
abstaining.
Board Member Talty — Well, that's true.
Board Member Hoffmann — I have thought about this too, and I have some concern
about what it means. Usually, I think of an abstention as happening at the end of a
meeting, when the resolution has been moved and seconded and that's when I have
sometimes abstained, and the reason I have abstained occasionally is I have had
just as many reason to vote yes as I've had to vote no, and I have been uncertain as
to which way to vote and rather than making an arbitrary vote, which would be even
worse, I think, I have abstained. I think if that's what's meant, I would like to have
abstention explained as to when it applies because when I did speak to Christine
earlier today, she said that this would be an abstention that happened before we got
into the subject matter, but that has never happened, to my knowledge on this
Board.
Ms. Brock — And I don't read it that way. I don't think that was actually the intent.
The intent was...
Board Member Conneman — I abstained recently on a matter, which you know about
because I thought there was not enough discussion. So I was ... I could have voted
no, but I was abstaining saying that I think we ought to discuss this more.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 10
Ms. Brock — And under that scenario, if an alternate were appointed and were here,
that alternate would then be designated to vote.
Board Member Mitrano —.And I am in favor of that.
Ms. Brock — That's actually how this is written.
Board Member Conneman — I'm not in favor of that ... If that's the case then I will vote
against it.
Chairperson Wilcox - As stated.. as drafted in the law ... as drafted in law ... what's
the difference between a recusal and an abstention? I guess that's what it boils
down to here.
Ms. Brock — Well, I think the word recusal often ... there may not be., different
people would interpret the terms differently so I think we wanted to use all of them so
that somebody wouldn't just say "well, I abstain" when in fact they really me they are
recusing themselves.
Chairperson Wilcox — I think it is very clear, when someone.
Ms. Brock — It's meant to be very board, that everybody should be prepared to vote
yes or no and if they can't do that either because they are not here, or because they
don't want to for whatever reason be it a conflict of interest, some other very good,
valid reason, then an alternate would be designated to vote, if the alternate was
here. That's , that is how this is drafted.
Board Member Conneman — An abstention is a vote,.,.
Board Member Hoffmann— Yeah, but I also think that...
Board Member Conneman -- ...at once it says that I think there ought to be more
discussion.
Board Member Mitrano — Yeah but that's a ...you have raised a procedural problem.
Board Member Conneman — I'm not raising a procedural problem, I'm abstaining
because I vote that there should be more discussion.
Board Member Hoffmann — I also think that a recusal, because of a conflict of
interest, and I would be interested to know what other reasons there would be for
recusal since it's listed separately, that would happen before we begin discussing a
topic.
Ms. Brock — Hopefully, if the members are thinking along those lines, right, then that
is hopefully when it happen. There might be a recusal when there's not an actual
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 11
conflict of interest but perhaps the person feels that it still wouldn't .be appropriate for
them to vote. For example; Say a very good friend of yours were appearing before
the Board, you're not related to the person, you don't have any financial interests
that are bound up with the person, maybe your personal relationship with the them
doesn't rise to the level of conflict -of- interest as it is defined in our Code of Ethics but
you still feel it just wouldn't be appropriate, you might then say, I'm going to recuse
myself. So that would be one example of somebody recusing themselves...
Board Member Hoffmann — I guess I would think of that as a conflict of interest
rather than some other reason, but I understand how one could think about it
differently then. But I would really like to see a definition of what abstention means
here.
Ms. Brock — I think it is really given the common sense meaning.,Jf the person says
"I abstain" or then ... they're not voting... they're not voting yes or no.
Board Member Thayer — But George's point is can you at that point, appoint
somebody to vote for George that has not been through the whole process of that
particular subject.
Board Member Conneman — Even if they've been through it, why would you...
Chairperson Wilcox — Hold on...
Ms. Brock — The way this is drafted. ..yes. I mean, keep in mind, there is nothing,
right now, preventing any of you from walking in, mid - stream on a matter, coming in
late, and voting on something that is before the Board. So I think the thought was,
why should we really treat the alternates any differently than we would treat the
regular members.
We did have this whole discussion...
Board Member Hoffmann —Assuming we've read the material, however
Ms. Brock — But, assuming likewise that the alternates are receiving the same
packets, and reading the same materials...
Board Member Hoffmann — I think that's maybe what George is trying to say. In
that particular case, they should be up to speed on all the information that we're
dealing with on that particular case.
Ms. Brock — Right. And they should be even attending the meetings and the way
the Zoning Board has been handling this is they are actually permitted to participate
in the discussion and ask questions just as often staff do, right, they're not members
but they will often help discuss and ask questions, too ... but they just can't vote.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 12
Board Member Conneman — What do you lose by leaving that word "abstain" out of
this? That's my point.
Ms. Brock -- Then you have a potential for...
Board Member Conneman — But it is a way to express an opinion that you don't
think we are.ready to vote. I abstain, I could vote no, would you rather have'me do
that?
Board Member Mitrano — yes.
Ms. Brock — I think you. should either vote no or abstain, depending on what your
preference is, and...
Board Member Conneman — But If I abstain then you take my time that I have spent
learning about the issue, reading about the issue, being here, to take my chance to
vote against that.
Ms. Brock But that's your choice. If you chose not to vote no, and to abstain
instead, that was the choice you made.
Board Member Conneman — I don't see what you gain...what you lose by leaving
that word out of there.
Board Member Thayer — So really it is up to the Chair to determine.to appoint an
alternate person at that point, right?
Ms. Brock — There really isn't any discretion, is there?
.Board Member Talty — No and that's the ...
Ms. Brock -- ...and that was the whole...
Chairperson Wilcox -- ...shall designate...
Ms. Brock — there was some fear that the Chair, if the Chair had discretion, would
play "games" maybe, depending on who isn't voting among the regular members,
and who is here , if there are two alternates appointed and both are.sitting here, and
maybe they want the Chair prefer to have one of them voting and not the other, for
various reasons, based on how that Chair thinks that person might vote. We just
wanted to get rid of all of that discretion and just have it be pretty automatic. If
somebody isn't voting, for whatever reason, and there is an alternate who is here,
that alternate will be appointed.. of course that alternate may likewise have to
abstain or not vote too, if a conflict of interest or something else arises, but, if there
are two alternates, then there is a rotation that is set up in the law. So it is
mandatory that whoever served last will not be the one to be appointed to then vote
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 13
on the next matter so that the two alternates are given equal opportunity to
participate.
Board Member Conneman — So one alternate can not be the one who always
serves, the Chairman has to choose the other one.
Ms. Brock — That's right. It is written into the Law in Section 2C; "if more than one
alternate member is present at the meeting where an alternate needs to be
designated to substitute for the regular member, the Chairperson shall designate the
alternate member who has not served on a case or matter most recently."
Board Member Howe Have we ever had an alternate and are we going to have
alternates.
Mr. Kanter — I ... you have never had an alternate. The Zoning Board basically
requested alternates because they had been having difficulty having quorums at
certain points. Possibly because they are a five- member board, so that means you
need to have three affirmative votes to pass an action.
Board Member Conneman — I understand why the Zoning Board needs them but we
have never needed them in the seven years I have been on this Board.
Chairperson Wilcox — I will tell you that there have been occasions where I have had
conversations with Jonathan on a Tuesday afternoon wondering whether we are
going to have four or five members at a meeting in the middle of the summer. It gets
pretty (inaudible)
Board Member Talty — However, you may have had that discussion, did it come to
fruition?
Chairperson Wilcox — As far as I know we have never canceled a meeting because
we haven't been able to muster a quorum.
Mr. Kanter -Yeah, we have never had to cancel after we have set the meeting
because we. didn't have a quorum.
Chairperson Wilcox — On the other hand, I would hate to get five members and get a
three -two split on a vote or four members and get a three -one split and,
Board Member Mitrano — But that's okay...
Board Member Conneman — Very few of us have ever been away more than two
weeks.
Board Member Talty — What do you mean by that,...that that's okay? I mean,
always thought that we needed four...
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 14
Chairperson Wilcox — We need four to take an action...
Ms. Brock — So, right. The action doesn't pass, it can be..
Board Member Conneman — So it can be brought up the next time.
Board Member Mitrano — Well, I'am for this resolution.
Ms. Brock — Yeah, it can come back.
Board Member Mitrano — I am for this resolution as it is written.
Ms. Brock — the quorum is always four. Regardless of how many people are here
or regardless of how many are actually appointed. I mean, if you have a vacancy, a
permanent vacancy in one of the positions... somebody's gone, has resigned, and
nobody has been appointed, your quorum is still four. It is always a majority of the
full composition of the body.
Chairperson Wilcox So we need four votes on one side or the other to make a
decision. Yes, Tracey.
Board Member Mitrano — I am for this resolution and I am for this resolution as it is
written because I think it favors applicants and the public by not tying them up with a
process we have not forethought various contingencies and possibilities whereby
they may not wither be able to act on an application or resolve an application by
virtue of any combination of reasons why someone may choose to abstain, or have
been absent or have a conflict of interest, recuse themselves or for any other
reason. So I think it is fair to the public to have sufficient contingency available to
them, such that their applications are handled in a timely and appropriate procedural
manner.
Board Member Hoffmann— I will vote against this unless I am assured that if I say,
when we are getting ready for a vote that I am very uncertain about how to vote; I
have as many good reasons to vote for as I have good reasons to vote against and if
say that I am thinking of abstaining that there is plenty of time allowed for
discussion because in such a case, I would like to hear what other members
reasons are for voting for or against and maybe they can convince me to change my
mind. And that's what that discussion is for, I think, at that point and very often,
think we are rushing through that part and there are times when I think we would
benefit from having that kind of discussion if somebody is uncertain about how to
vote.
Board Member Conneman — I will vote against it for the same reason, not politically
as Tracey said I would.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 15
Ms. Brock — Eva and George, the Code allows the Planning Board to set its own
rules of procedure as long as they are not inconsistent with the Code. So I think it
would be within this body's purview to set a rule that if a member is going to abstain,
that it be done before the case is heard, unless of course some information comes to
light during the discussion that they were unaware of and had no reason to expect,..
Board Member Hoffmann — And that often happens...
Board Member Conneman— We don't know sometimes...
Ms. Brock — right.. But to address your concern, I think that you were worried that if
there were going to be somebody abstaining or recusing themselves, that they do
that early in the process so that the alternate knows that they are now going to be
acting in that member's stead, right. .
Board Member Conneman— Excusing themselves is a different issue
Board Member Hoffmann —Yes, exactly...
Board Member Conneman— Kevin excused himself, I got excused one time which
you don't know anything about because I wrote a letter to somebody at Cornell and
Cornell insisted that I was ... that I had a conflict of interest, which was a bunch of
baloney, but anyway, I took it like a gentleman and sat in the back, ..But I just think
that abstention is a way of saying, not delaying the vote, as Tracey says, I'm against
that, I am really opposed to doing that, but I do think that sometimes, we'd rather
abstain. But I won't abstain tonight, I'll vote against it if you leave the word abstain in
there.
Board Member Howe — I have somewhat of the same concerns with the abstaining,
because sometimes at the end of the discussion, your just not sure and it probably
does mean that you just need more discussion as a board, and it's not that you are
trying to get out of making a decision, so that aspect, I agree with the sentiments
that George has.
Board Member Mitrano — May I suggest that people then encourage the Chair to
allow for a continued discussion. There is a very famous Supreme Court Justice,
you will excuse a little history here, this was a very famous person who got on the
Supreme Court and he couldn't decide decisions and he got off the Supreme Court
because you are there to decide decisions and the hardest decisions are the ones
that come before us. So if it's a procedural problem that we haven't heard enough,, .
then by all means, let us say "I need more information, we need more time, we need
more discussion", but I don't think you just say, ...you don't join a board to say I'm
not sure how I ma going to vote. .
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 16
Board Member Conneman— No, we don't join a board ... except that the last time that
we didn't have sufficient discussion, that was an issue. It was late and we need to
vote, the Chairman said, instead of saying let's back off a bit.
Board Member Mitrano — Then I think we should address that as a procedural
problem among us, not as a concept or abstention.
Board Member Conneman— He didn't let us...
Board Member Talty — I think that I have an issue with what was brought up before.
I don't want someone to go through having the public come in and dealing with the
staff and ourselves and all of a sudden, after two, three, four meetings, all of a
sudden we abstain and it is in the hands of the Chair to go and supersede, almost,
an abstention vote and have an alternate person come in and vote. I think that that
does take away the integrity of the vote.
Board Member Mitrano — Yes. But I am agreeing to something different than what
Kevin said. It takes away from the integrity of a vote to abstain for not being able to
make a decision.
Board Member Talty — I may have articulated that incorrectly. I'm saying that if
George were to, at the end of a topic, say "I'm going to abstain. ", what I don't want to
have happen is allow the Chair at that time to go ahead and say "Well, if George is
abstaining, I'm going to appoint an alternative person to come in and vote, because
he is abstaining at that time.
Board Member Mitrano — I sense that I would be in the minority...
Chairperson Wilcox —.It does mean that...
Board Member Conneman— It doesn't mean don't take the word of...
Board Member Talty — It does mean that...
Chairperson Wilcox — The way it is written, the Chair would be forced to
Board Member Thayer -- :..designate an alternate...
Chairperson Wilcox -- ...designate an alternate who would then vote yeah or nay,
yeah.
Board Member Talty — And that alternate,
they would have to be here from day one.
to give the public a fair flavor of that vote,
Chairperson Wilcox — And that alternate would ... should have a chance to ask
questions, both of the applicant and members of the Board...
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 17
Board Member Thayer— Which they would not have...
Chairperson Wilcox — They could sit here, as an alternate and participate...
Board Member Talty — Can they take part in the discussion?
Chairperson Wilcox — Sure.
Ms. Brock — Yes, and on the ZBA they actually sit here, on the other side, where the
Staff chairs are, and they ask questions.
Board Member Thayer— I think that if they have been part of that particular subject,
taken part of the discussion, and at that point then you appoint them, I don't see a,
problem with that.
Chairperson Wilcox - Let me speak as a member of the Board rather than as the
Chair because Chairs are only appointed for one year and I am technically only
Chair until the end of the year and you know; we'll see. whether I or someone else is
appointed Chair for next year.
Personally I am hesitant to replace someone who abstains. If someone chooses to
abstain, I don't want to be forced to pick an alternate. Therefore, I think it is
incumbent upon me, as the Chair now, to ensure that we discuss matters. On the
other hand, I've got to be cognizant that at some point we have to come to a
decision and vote. We can't discuss for ever and ever something and that's a
balance and some people would argue that I have taken to long to make a decision
or have this Board make a decision and sometimes it's been we haven't taken
enough time, so. I accept the criticism, that's fine. But I don't like abstention in here
either. I really don't.
Board Member Thayer -- I don't know if ... when an abstention has tilted the vote one
way or the other.
Chairperson Wilcox — The possibility is that it would prevent us from getting to four
votes, on one side or the other.
Board Member Conneman— But if we do as Rod said and we back -off and say okay,
if we're going to abstain, we'd like to have more discussion before we vote.
Board Member Hoffmann — I wonder if we could come up with a definition for two
words. One is recusal and one is abstention and I would like to see recusal be
something that happens either because of conflict of interest or some other reason,
but it happens before we start discussing a subject.
Board Member Talty -- Exactly and if we could put that in for an abstention...
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 18
Board Member Hoffmann —,,.and an abstention is something that happens only
when we have gotten to the point of.voting for the resolution, whether it's SEQR or
Site Plan...
Board Member Conneman— Did you say conflict of interest? Is that what you said?
Board Member Hoffmann — Yes, conflict of interest or some other reason like feeling
uncomfortable if somebody you know is ... but that's a recusal....that is how I have
always understood a recusal and that's what ... If I had recused myself before we
began to discuss and I think that is what most people have done. An abstention is
something completely different and I would like to have those two words defined so
that we all know what they mean.
Board Member Mitrano — If we start defining them though, we may not be able to
cover all the possible contingencies such that then we are going to be in. an
interpretive dilemma, whether we must have a plain reading of the text or an
expanded reason of the text should some occasion occur when a person is
abstaining but it is not a part of the definition of what abstention is.
I'll tell you when I would abstain. When I would come in late and I have looked at
the material but I still don't really know enough about it and I didn't hear enough of
the discussion and then I would abstain.
Board Member Conneman— No, you recuse yourself...
Board Member Mitrano — No no no no no no no ... I would recuse myself under the
circumstances that Susan said. Where it is not a legal conflict of interest but for
some kind of personal or personally ethical reason I wouldn't feel as though it were
appropriate for me.to vote and I would know that before I even walked in the door or
maybe I could learn it ... you know ... there's my ex- husband sitting there and I have to
make a decision and I didn't even know that he was going to be an applicant,
something like that, but I would only...
Chairperson Wilcox— Or you ex- husband's lawyer who was representing the
applicant (laughter)...
Board Member Mitrano -- ...yes, something like that.. but, I would only abstain
when I really felt like I needed more information... for some reason I felt that I didn't
have enough information but it was my fault.
Board Member Hoffmann — And that is perfectly fine. And that means an abstention
that happens when it is time to vote, at the end of the discussion...
Board Member Mitrano — But it would be my fault cause maybe I didn't get there in
time or something like that...
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. '19
Board Member Conneman— No because maybe I ... we didn't have quite enough
information to make a decision.
Board Member Thayer— Can we re -word this so that the alternate is always
appointed before we start the discussion.
Board Member Talty - Yeah, why don't you do that instead..
Ms. Brock — You could make that recommendation...
Board Member Thayer — It seems that that would eliminate the problem.
Ms. Brock — You could make that recommendation.
Board Member Thayer— That would be my recommendation.
Ms. Brock — Then you may have the situation where somebody mid -way through
the process realizes they have a conflict of interest and now you don't have the
ability to appoint the alternate to act in their stead.
Mr. Kanter — That was discussed at the Codes and Ordinances Committee. There
could be a number of situations where the alternate may need to be appointed
during the action, during that particular proposal, that member falls sick during the
meeting, that member just has to go home, if there is a legitimate alternate who has
been sitting through the whole proceeding, listening and participating in the
discussion and the voting member leaves or can not vote at that point, that is one
factual circumstance where an alternate could be appointed during that action.
Board Member Conneman— I am afraid that some attorney will just abstention to
mean what we started out discussing tonight.
Mr. Kanter — Well, abstention, I think, is very clearly at the point of the vote, the
member abstains. That is a vote. I mean, that is during the vote. There is some
theory as to whether that constitutes a vote or not, but that is during the voting
process. That is what abstention means. Recusal is at any other point.
Board Member Conneman— I understand what recusal means.
Mr. Kanter — So, I don't think we need to define ... it's really a policy question.
Board Member Mitrano — Right.
Chairperson Wilcox — I need to give the public a chance to speak.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5., 2006 Pg. 20
Ladies and Gentlemen, hopefully you have been enjoying our, discussion on this
matter. This is a Public Hearing, Ladies and Gentlemen and we would like to get
your input should you like to provide. us with some. So once again, if you would like
to address the Board on this particular agenda item, we ask that you come to the
microphone, give us your name and address and we will be most interested to hear
what you have to say.
Harry Ellsworth, Honness Lane, Member of the Zoning Board of Appeals,
Town of Ithaca
have been a member of the Zoning Board of Appeals for over ten years. There
was one case where I had to excuse myself because I had a contract with one of the
people who was presenting their project and it was a tie and it had to go to the next
meeting. During that time, this person cancelled my contract so that at the next
meeting I was able to vote and there was a person here from the Conservation
Board that went berserk because she thought that there was some sort of hanky -
panky going on. There certainly wasn't on my part but, I would never do any work
for this individual again. So there's a case where happened.
The other thing that you're having a lot of problem with, it seems to me, and we have
alternates, and that hasn't been voted on yet, how they are to be used, but they
need to be through ... If they're going to be brought in in substitution for somebody
else who got sick or we have quite a few senior citizens on our Board that go on
vacations during the winter for a month or so, they need to be present during the
whole discussion and be able to take part in the discussion and at our meetings, as
someone said, they do take part during the discussion. If they happen to miss a
meeting or something, even though they get the written word, it's not like being at
the meeting and feeling the flavor of what's going on.
So does that help you make your decisions. I hope so.
Hollis Erb, Snyder Hill Road, Ithaca
think the word ... I think including the word abstention is nonsense and shouldn't be
in that rule that you are trying to make. I think it makes a lot of sense to have an
alternate in case there is an absence or a vacancy or someone has to recuse
themselves. But to come to the vote and then have someone abstain and then
appoint an alternate or announce that the alternate is then going to vote, just seems
to me to take away the right of the sitting Board Member to abstain if he or she
wishes to do so and I don't see, I don't understand why you have to harmonize the
rules across all boards and what would be wrong with taking out the word
abstention, for now, and trying the alternates for absences vacancies and recusals
for a while and see how it works. Thank you.
Board Member Mitrano — May I ask a question. ..So in other words you would want
to take it out in order to preserve it for a potential protest vote?
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 21
Ms. Erb - I don't see it necessarily as a protest vote but just in case somebody
wanted to. The sitting board member, in my opinion, would have the right to abstain
if they are here and want to cast that as their vote, it seems to me that that's for
them to do and I can certainly see where it could get to a point in a discussion where
everybody else feels the discussion is done, and the one board member who has
been honestly trying, simply can not come to a decision on one side or the other.
And I think that that ought to be respected. And as I said, if you haven't had much
need for this, what's wrong with (tape change) ...short-term vacancy or recusal.
Those already would handle several of the situations in which the Board might find
itself.
Board Member Mitrano What would be wrong in the case if the person truly, truly,
truly wasn't a protest vote, it was something that they just didn't have enough
information, then to allow an alternate person who felt as if they did have enough
information to vote because an applicant who has invested significant, usually
significant, time and money is relying at least on the process. So in other words, it
seems to me why.the reason why anyone would not vote, and all of these reasons
should be substantive, it never should be procedural, if it's procedural then there is
something wrong with the Board, and the Board needs to deal with that and it should
not fall to the applicant to suffer a procedural problem of this Board.
Ms. Erb — I did not mean it as a political move. I meant it as an entirely honest
uncertainty after good discussion. I still would bow to the primacy of the sitting
regular board member, in that instance, although _1 completely understand what you
are arguing in terms of fairness to the applicant and to the public, on the other hand
can also argue that it is up to the applicant to make a sufficient case. That a board
member could make up his or her mind.
TM — But if they want to abstain, then why can't someone who's an alternate, who
has participated, all the requirements, then simply be allowed to cast a vote?
Ms. Erb — Again, I would simply would say that I believe the primacy of being the
counted member should fall in the regular board members.
(Conversation among Hollis Erb and an other audience member)
Ann Byrne, Hopkins Road
I'm asking if she said she would refer back and give the respect to the board
member, correct? Is that what I am hearing ... My question is why would you do that?
And is it for consistency? Is it for the public to know what they are dealing with?
Chairperson Wilcox— Hollis ... do you have a problem with this sort of interaction?
Ms. Erb — I have no problem at all ... can you still hear me on the tape, do you think?
(Acknowledged that we can)
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 22
Let me again try it two different ways here. First of all, I can certainly see the.need
that it might turn out to be very useful to have an alternate when it's know that there
is going to be an absence on the Board.or if somebody has to leave during the
meeting. So, alternate here will vote when there is an absence of one of the regular
board members.
I can additional see that a recusal of one of the board members would be a perfect
place to have an alternate. I can see both of those circumstances, probably most.of
the time, being known in advance of the meeting, although I could see plenty of
circumstances and Mr. Kanter started talking about a few of them, in which either a
recusal or a have -to -leave sort of absence would take place during the meeting. But
in every other voting body that I have been a part of, an abstention was a legitimate
recorded vote and I think that the sitting, regular board members put so much time
and effort into this that if the sitting board member is here and wants to abstain,
would simply out of respect for them and the fact that they are the board; I would
agree to that. I also see that there are a number of board members who are
uncomfortable with the word abstention and I don't see why you need to retain it in
this particular new rule as opposed to just trying the rule for a year or two.with simply
recusals and absences and see how it works.
Ms. Byrne — Yeah because when I hear Tracey I'm hearing you say that the reason
this is important is if this person, a board member, can not make up their mind, lets
go to somebody who may make a decision... that the abstention stands for...
Board Member Thayer — That may be one of the reasons...
Ms. Byrne -- ...they don't know...
Board Member Mitrano — But it does have an effect ... It is not without an effect. If it
needs to get to a majority, and the abstention would be the fourth person one way or
the other, then it seems as if something that looks procedural. becomes very
substantive and why should an applicant suffer the effects of that when there is a
process that we could adopt that would allow for a very clear vote one way or the
other instead of something that could be interpreted in a hundred ways; was there
not enough process, weren't they sure how to vote, were they uncomfortable in ways
that they couldn't even articulate... That is unfair to an applicant. They should know,
either it went or it didn't go. Not by something that is vague, inarticulate, unclear,
like an abstention and we have heard a variety or reasons why people would choose
to take an abstention and that's fine. So long as we have process for an applicant to
get a clear decision one way or the other. I think the public is due that, I think the
applicants are due that.
Ms. Byrne — Because doesn't that abstention count as a no- vote?
Board Member Mitrano — In effect it might, exactly.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 23
Chairperson Wilcox— It counts as not a yes vote, let's put it that way.
Board Member Conneman — But the applicant, I agree with Tracey, the applicant
should get an answer, I don't think you have to view an abstention as being a vote to
prevent action on something. It's saying let's discuss this more, let's have some
more information about things, that's what it means and when this Board has had
that, that's when people have abstained. That's what I would think...
Board Member Mitrano — And that's because the Chair didn't allow more discussion?
Board Member Conneman — Yes. I'm a decision maker. I teach decision making, or
I taught decision making, and I believe in decision making but I think there are some
times when you say wait a minute, let's back off and think about this a bit and
sometimes we've made better decisions when we've done that.
Ms. Byrne — That sounds procedural. That sounds like the Chair is not allowing
enough time for discussion for you to sleep on the decision and that's where the
abstention comes in.
Board Member Conneman — Well, it may not be the Chair, it may be Larry who says
"I move it" and I say wait a minute Larry, we'd like to discuss this ... he'll more likely
listen to the Chair because that's what Chairs' do, they try to get things to a vote.
Board Member Mitrano — I think we've got a boatload of situations in which people
might abstain.
Board Member Conneman — Well, I don't know about you Tracey, I abstain ... I could
vote no, but I'd rather not vote no because I would rather solve the problem by
having more discussion.
Chairperson Wilcox— Speaking of procedure... would the two ladies like to contribute
anything else or can we send them back to their seats? Any other comments
ladies?
Ms. Erb — I would just say that I wouldn't see an individual abst
with the board member. Certainly if you have a board member
never come to a decision, that would become a problem. But
truly neutral on a particular issue, once in a blue moon, to be a
member. And with all fairness to the public and the applicant,
behooves the applicant to make a sufficient case.
Chairperson Wilcox— Thank you Hollis. Thank you.
.antion as a problem
who repeatedly can
don't consider being
problem with a board
I will repeat, I think I
Ms. Bryne — Except she said that it always behooves the applicant, but it also could
be the public who are not getting the hearing and being cut -off from discussion.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 24
Chairperson Wilcox— For the record, if the Town Board should ever decide to.
appoint an alternates... Hollis would be at the top of my short list, for the record and
make Ann the second one.
Chairperson Wilcox closes the Public Hearing at 7:57 p.m.
Board Member Hoffmann — That particular paragraph also has the statement "any
other reason" which is kind of ambiguous.
Board Member Thayer — Yeah, I wasn't happy with that open ended version.
Chairperson Wilcox —What do you want to do guys and gals.
Board Member Conneman Scratch off the last six words, I think your safe.
Board Member Mitrano — Absence goes too?
Board Member Conneman — No, I'm assuming or is a word...
Board Member Hoffmann — You've better say what words you are talking about...)
think that's a good idea and I think Hollis Erb actually expressed very well the way I
feel about it too so thank you very much.
Board Member Mitrano — Just hypothetically, I think procedurally you could actually
have an alternative person abstain. Then what? Then you go to the second one?
Board Member Conneman — Hopefully, Kevin, that person would be saying "well,:
maybe we ... we don't know enough to vote on this."
Board Member Mitrano — Well that's true and I would hate to have a board member
after all this discussion think well, if I'm going to vote in abstention, maybe I shouldn't
and maybe I should vote no and I don't think that that's fair to the person in front of
us. So I think that that is something else to consider.
Chairperson Wilcox— It does make it more important for the C
sufficient discussion occurs but at the same time, a Chair can
be dysfunctional in such a way that they don't want to make a
can't wait for everybody to decide that they are ready to vote.
could have a member of the board who is going to abstain no
hair to make sure that
not allow a board to
decision ... a Chair
It's possible that you
matter what.
Board Member Mitrano — Or abstain until they believe that some discussion has,
come around to the vote they want.
Board Member Conneman — But if after a reasonable...we are reasonable people. ...if
after a reasonable period of time we take a vote, that's okay.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg, 25
Board Member Talty — And Fred you have done straw vote, I think you have handled
yourself very well and. I don't see an issues, I mean I don't know how long you are
going. to be Chair, but under the current format you have always done well. I don't
see, basically I am the last one in and I have been here six and a half years and I
don't think we have ever had an issue where we've had either multiple people
missing or multiple abstentions, or anything. Not to say it couldn't happen but I think
we are all reasonable people and I think that we can come to some type of a vote.
Board Member Conneman — And if anybody has voted for something or against
something for political reasons, I don't know who it is or what the vote was.
Board Member Thayer — I bet Tracey won't say that word again.
Board Member Conneman — I hope not.
Board Member Hoffmann — I thought that the way one votes; aye or nay or abstains,
is part of Robert's Rules ... and so it is standard practice and I don't understand why
we should start messing around with that.
Board Member Mitrano — Then why can't we include it? It is standard practice. Why
can't we include it then?
Board Member Hoffmann — Because we aren't allowing people to abstain without
having an alternate vote. According to Robert's Rules,.you are allowed to abstain, it
seems to me.
Board Member Mitrano — Correct, I'm not objecting or disbelieving that...
Board Member Hoffmann — So why change that?
Board Member Mitrano — Then why not include it?
Board Member Conne.man — Because Robert's doesn't say that as soon as you
abstain we appoint someone else to vote.
Board Member Mitrano — No, that's for us to decide.
Ms. Brock — The Town can change... Robert's Rules of Order do not automatically
apply here. The Town can change the rules of procedure to be what they want them
to be.
Board Member Conneman — A lot of boards out there.. the Water Commission, the
Bolton Point Water Commission always operated on modified Robert's Rules of
Order, we never had an abstention, and we only had one vote in the seventeen
years I was Chairman. We always reached a consensus.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 26
Board Member Howe -- I would like to move the motion with the suggestion that we
take out the five words we discussed...
Chairperson Wilcox— With the five words being; abstention or any other reason. Do I
have a second? Eva Hoffmann seconds.
Board Member Conneman — And if that is the thing, I will obviously not abstain, I will
vote for it.
Chairperson Wilcox— Discussion.
Board Member Mitrano — Well I will vote for it because I think it is important for the
public to have the opportunity and for applicants to have the opportunity to have
alternatives in these situations where conflict of interest, recusal or absence occurs.
But, it would be my preference to include the word abstention.
Chairperson Wilcox— Susan, so what we want to do is take the draft resolution and
add a new paragraph two with the following change, right? So the resolution that is
drafted has to say with the following change; that the five words abstention or any
other reason located in paragraph 2(b) be removed.
Ms. Brock — Where are you inserting that? Which whereas?
Chairperson Wilcox— You're the lawyer, you can insert it where you want, but
figured it would be Now therefore be it resolved... some place down there that we
recommend wit the following change.
Ms. Brock — So at the end of "and " to add a new paragraph 2, add a comma and
insert the words with the following change: delete the words abstention or any other
reason in proposed paragraph 2(b).
Chairperson Wilcox— Yup,
Board Member Hoffmann — I thought the word and after 2(b) was supposed to be
removed?
Chairperson Wilcox— That needs to be there to make it grammatically correct..
Chairperson Wilcox— I just want to make sure we are comfortable over here: Susan,
are you comfortable? You seem hesitant...
Ms. Brock — No, no I am trying to help Paulette get her copy conforming.. Ym set.
Chairperson Wilcox— Okay, and you are satisfied that the change is consistent with
the intent of the Board?
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 27
Ms. Brock —Yes,
Chairperson Wilcox— Change. is acceptable Rod and Eva? (Yes)
ADOPTED RESOLUTION: PB RESOLUTION NO. 2006 - 117
Recommendation to the Town Board
Regarding a Proposed Local Law to Modify the
Zoning Code, Chapter 270- 236(A)(2)9
Regarding Appointment of Alternate Planning
Board Members
MOTION made by Board Member Rod Howe and seconded by Board Member Eva
Hoffmann.
WHEREAS: The Codes and Ordinances Committee has drafted a proposed local
law amending Chapter 270 -236 of the Town of Ithaca Code, Titled "Planning Board,"
to delete subparagraph A(2) and add a new subparagraph 2, and
WHEREAS: The above - described amended chapter regulates the appointment of
alternate members to the Planning Board, and designation of alternate members to
vote when regular Planning Board members are unable or unwilling to vote because
of conflict of interest, recusal, absence, abstention, or any other reason, and
WHEREAS: The Town Board has reviewed the above - described proposed local law
at its meeting on November 13, 2006 and has referred this matter to the Planning
Board for a recommendation, and
WHEREAS: The Town of Ithaca Planning Board has held a public hearing on
December 5, 2006 to consider comments from the public regarding this proposed
law,
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED: That the Town of Ithaca Planning Board
hereby recommends that the Town Board adopt the proposed local law amending
Chapter 270 -236 of the Town of Ithaca Code, Titled "Planning Board," to delete
subparagraph A(2) and add a new subparagraph 2 with the following change: delete
"abstention or any other reason" in proposed paragraph 2(b).
A vote on the motion resulted as follows:
AYES: Wilcox, Hoffmann, Conneman, Thayer, Mitrano, Howe, and Talty.
NAYS: None.
ABSTENTIONS: None
The Motion was declared to be carried unanimously.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 28
Chairperson Wilcox opens the next Agenda Item at 8:05p.m.
SEQR for the proposed Rite Aid Pharmacy fence located at Pine Tree Road and
Mitchell Street. Representing the applicant is ... I didn't see_ Bill Paladino out there
and I didn't know whether he had sent an alternate or somebody. I think ... My guess
is that we can proceed without an applicant or an agent here, with this one.. .1 have
this gut feeling that we can proceed., We'll give it a shot and see whether we can
proceed without the applicant.
Board Member Talty — Fred I would like to recuse myself for reasons stated in prior
minutes.
Chairperson Wilcox — Consistent with your recusal when we've discussed this matter
previously.
For the members of the public, when the applicant built the Rite Aid Pharmacy and
associated other structures, including the detention pond, they put a metal chain link
fence around the detention pond, which was not something that was approved by
this Planning Board. The applicant is back before the Board this evening requesting
that the site plan be modified to allow that chain link fence to remain.
I'm not happy with that chain -link fence. Rod is shaking his head
Board Member Hoffmann -Yeah but I am wondering if we can proceed because
would have like to ask the applicant why they needed to have that fence.
Board Member Mitrano — Yes, what's the purpose of the fence?
Board Member Thayer — Yeah, what's the liability?
Board Member Conneman — I think he would also like to hear my description of that
thing.
Chairperson Wilcox — I will say right now, I don't think that landscaping in front of
the fence is not the answer because there is no guarantee they will take care of the
landscaping. I don't think the slats as George held up, are the answer because
they'll either be removed, destroyed, they'll wear out, they'll fall out. The answer is
tear it down or if they think they need a fence, a four -foot green fence or something
like that would be reasonable.
Board Member Thayer — Well would it be reasonable? If it is there for a liability for
kids to climb over, they can climb over a four -foot fence.
Chairperson Wilcox — I was at the outlet mall
detention pond and they just have a wooden
that simply says "don't go here.
in Seneca Falls, and they have a big
post and the two runners and a sign
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 29
Board Member Mitrano — What is the depth of the pond, on average.
Board Member Thayer — That's what I was going to ask. Is there a liability? Is the
insurance insisting that they have to have a fence there?
Board Member Hoffmann — I was going to mention a number of other detention
ponds that we have both on public property and on private property and you can add
to them too, I'm sure, and they do not have fences. Like for instance, the one at the
intersection of Pine Tree Road and (inaudible). Also, the one at Summer Hill Lane
development, they have what we were talking about as a wetland but it is essentially
a detention pond, which then continues across the federal credit union property
there and in front of the Burger King... Overlook has not just one but two detention
ponds and I don't think they have a fence. There is the Ithaca College student
apartments that were privately built, they have this huge wet area between their
houses and Route 96 and then there are. ..Longview too has a pond or a detention
area and if they haven't seen the need to put up a fence, I don't understand the need
for this place.
Board Member Mitrano — It would be an ugly precedent
Board Member Conneman — I don't see how we can act without them here. That's
not delaying. I just think that he'd like to be here and hear what we have to say.
Board Member Thayer — I'd like to know why he put it up.
Board Member Conneman — I want to ask him that question. Doesn't he listen,
doesn't he hear?
Board Member Thayer — And why he put it up with the pine trees on the inside.
Mr. Kanter — I suspect they put the trees there first and then decided that they
needed a fence.
Board Member Thayer — Oh yeah, it's obvious they did that. They could have
transplanted all that stuff.
Board Member Conneman — The other point that I would like to raise is how he's
going to maintain that...those shrubs around there and if he doesn't maintain it, if the
Town Attorney agrees, I think he ought to be fined and bring him to court and
(inaudible) ... he obviously has not listened to anything else we say, so I don't think
we can act on this.
Board Member Mitrano — I think it'would be inappropriate to do the second one.
Chairperson Wilcox — So what are we goint to do with this one?
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 30
Board Member Mitrano — I think we should wait and do both of them. So long as.. .if.
we are going to wait on.the second one, might as well wait on this one.
Board Member Thayer – He can't get his CO anyway until we act on this.
Chairperson Wilcox – Well, he gets a. temporary.
Ladies and Gentlemen; for those of you who have been sitting quietly and politely to
hear a discussion, maybe not of the chain -link fence but of the proposed hotel and
retail outlets, one of which is proposed to be a fast- food ... it's supposed to be a
restaurant with a drive -thru, I don't know if it's fast -food, and we don't have an
applicant here or an agent here. So part of our discussion is do we really want to
proceed,. it's procedural,. Now we have to separate the two because one is a
scheduled public hearing and we have to deal with that either by voting to postpone
it to another meeting and the other is just a sketch plan review but I feel bad for the
people who are sitting here waiting for the applicant.
Board Member Mitrano – I vote to let them speak and postpone...
Chairperson Wilcox – We'll give them a chance to speak.
Hollis Erb, Snyder Hill Road
I was going to urge you to require that the chain -link fence be removed. It was never
part of the original approval. Its ugly. And I was going to mention many of the same
detention ponds that don't have chain[link fences and it just, it just makes that area
worse than it is or than it would have to be. Thank you.
Chairperson Wilcox –Anybody else?
Board Member Conneman – I want to tell
tacky in an attractive neighborhood.
Hollis that I had it written down that it was
Chairperson Wilcox —Would we like to postpone this until such time. ..if the Board's
desire is to ask questions of the applicant because you believe that will help you
make a better decision or is the purpose here to simply to chastise the applicant for
doing something we don't like? So we think...
Board Member Conneman – Well I think he needs to defend himself against my
proposal if he doesn't maintain the landscaping he gets fined.
Chairperson Wilcox – Well I think the issue here is that he.. Let me try to move a
head a little bit here. I think the issue here is does the fence come down or does it
get replaced by something else that is either shorter or a different color or a different
material. My guess is that's what this Board will do.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 31
Board Member Howe — But suppose they couldn't get insurance unless the fence
was up.
Chairperson Wilcox — Right and we don't know whether he needs a fence and if he
needs a fence, it's got to be shorter a different color or a different material and if he
doesn't need a fence, then it goes. And I think that is why we need the applicant.
That's my feeling. We would like the fence to go, but if it needs to stay then we need
to do something to reduce it's impact because it is butt-ugly, pardon the expression.
Mr. Kanter — Susan has a suggestion but I think the comment that if that fence
needs to remain, I don't think that's a given at all. I think this Board could say that
that fence can not remain and if some fence is necessary then you start all over and
propose it to us.
Ms. Brock — That was my comment.
Chairperson Wilcox = Good point.
Board Member Conneman — Jonathan, does that take away the landscaping issue?
Mr. Kanter — Well, the landscaping issue is such that any landscaping that is
approved in the site plan is the obligation of the applicant to maintain. That's typical
of anything, that has nothing to do with the fence.
Chairperson Wilcox — I don't think that we can cover the existing fence with
landscaping. That doesn't solve the problem. So one option is to say the fence
goes.
Ms. Brock — Well, the options to vote on the proposed modification; the proposed
modification is that the installed six -foot high chain -link fence remain. And so you
could vote on that.
Chairperson Wilcox — we vote no it goes away and then in the new app, he has to
come back with a new application to replace it with something else.
Ms. Brock — Or comply with the site plan as approved. Which does not have a
fence.
Board Member Hoffmann — But the revised site plan that they have provided, SP -1,
shows the fence but it doesn't show any plantings. So if we vote on this...
Mr. Kanter— It's a partial site plan, that's not the whole site plan...
Chairperson Wilcox — It's sufficient enough for us to deal with the fence issue.
That's an interesting alternative. Board...
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 32
Board Member Thayer — What's that?
Chairperson Wilcox — To proceed with voting to remove the fence and then if the
applicant wants to have a fence, then they need to come back with a proposal and
tell us why they need it. Yeah, that's an alternative. I think it's up to this Board.
Board Member Hoffmann — Well, I think though that if we are going to be fair to our
applicants, maybe it's not quite fair. Maybe he had an accident and he couldn't get
here so maybe it's not quite fair to vote on something without his input on why they
want a fence.
Board Member Mitrano - I agree with that. Especially since the second one also
involves him and he, the 7:45 consideration of sketch plan review, he would have to
be here.for that. So I agree with you, I would prefer to adjourn it.
Ms. Brock — It is really at the pleasure of the Board how you want to proceed
procedurally. You can do either.
Chairperson Wilcox — Procedurally I should have a vote to adjourn this matter to
such time as the applicant...
Board Member Mitrano — But may I also add that while there are people here from
the public who did anticipate speaking this evening, I would be in favor of hearing
their preliminary thoughts subject to...
Chairperson Wilcox — We will do that when we get to the next item. We'll do the
best we can for them.
Board Member Hoffmann — But they have nothing to react to. We don't have the
applicant here to present the .:.
Chairperson Wilcox — No we don't but we can at least talk about the materials that
are in front of us and they can react...
Board Member Hoffmann -- ...but how can they make comments...
Board Member Mitrano — Maybe they don't have any comments to make.
Ms. Brock — And there would be a public hearing at a future meeting to which this
matter is rescheduled.
Chairperson Wilcox — Yes. And this is a sketch plan review. We will give them a
chance to speak, we will postpone the sketch...he will have to come back again or
do it and the public will, at a sketch plan review, we'll give the public a chance to
speak and should it proceed to a formal application and they come in for a
preliminary approval, we'll have a public hearing for that. We'll do what we can for
them tonight. The problem is that I
and sometimes I just have to say no,
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 33
have run this sort of as a Town Meeting tonight
So what's the Board's pleasure? To defer? I need a motion.
ADOPTED RESOLUTION PB RESOLUTION NO. 2006 - 118
POSTPONEMENT OF SITE PLAN
MODIFICATION AND RELATED SEQR
MOTION made by Board Member George Conneman and seconded by Board
Member Larry Thayer.
RESOLVED
That the Planning Board
Plan Modification -Fence
Redevelopment, Tax Pa
Tree Road and 930/946
Department of Planning,
of the Town of Ithaca hereby postpones the SEAR & Site
for the Rite Aid Pharmacy /Judd Falls Plaza
rcel No's. 62- 1 -3.2, 62- 1 -2.21 62 -1 -1 located at 330 Pine
Mitchell Street until it can be rescheduled by the
Town of Ithaca.
A vote on the motion resulted as follows:
AYES: Wilcox, Hoffmann, Conneman, Thayer, Mitrano, Howe, and Talty.
NAYS: None.
The Motion was declared to be carried unanimously.
Chairperson Wilcox the next Agenda Item at 8:20 p.m.
Consideration of a Sketch Plan review for a proposed hotel and two restaurant /
retail buildings as part of the Phase II Development of the former Judd Falls Plaza
located off Pine Tree Road and Mitchell Street, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No.'s 62-
1 -3.21 62- 1 -2.2, and 62 -1 -1, Community Commercial Zone. The proposal includes'' a
three -story, +/- 60,507 square foot hotel containing approximately 84 rooms and two
restaurant / retail buildings totaling +/- 7,900 square feet. The proposal will also
include improvements to the parking area along with new walkways and
landscaping. 1093 Group, LLC, Owner /Applicant; William A. Paladino, Agent.
Chairperson Wilcox — For the record, Board Member Talty recuses himself for this
item as well.
Ladies and Gentlemen we are in an interesting situation, we don't have an applicant
here. Let's see what we can do in term of sharing information with the public here
and once again we will have to reschedule this for a later time. I don't think we have
to be quite as formal with a vote because this is a sketch plan review and doesn't
involve a public hearing but clearly we have to have the applicant here for this one.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg..34
(Discussion amongst the Board and Staff on how to involve the public, plans that
were available were shared with the public.)
Chairperson Wilcox — What we have before us is a proposal, and this is not a public
hearing, the purpose this evening was for the applicant to come before the Planning
Board and present what they wanted to do and get our reaction to it, both pro and
con, is a 80 -plus room hotel which will be located on the western side of the
property. That would border the cemetery and then along Mitchell Street would, be
two buildings, one of which would be a food outlet with a drive -thru and a second
building, .which they have not signed up a tenant for yet. And what we usually see.
when we have hotels now that don't have restaurants, is you have retail food outlets
next door to them. We don't have much more information than that other than some
black and white drawing. .we have some elevation drawings of what the hotel might
look like and we have a name on the hotel, which says Windgate Hotel.
Board Member Hoffmann = I didn't have a chance to come down and look at the
market study, which apparently is available at Town Hall. Would it be possible for
somebody to comment on that? Did anybody look at it? °
Chairperson Wilcox — I looked at it briefly before the meeting started, I didn't look at
it from a technical point of view, I looked at to see if the people that had been hired,
the consultant who had been hired to do it, had made use of data from Claritas so 'I
could just mention that. I didn't see that they had. I say, in Jonathan's cover memo
that it was available, but I decided that it wasn't worth it to me at this point to review
the market study, but it does exist. It's, I can't tell you what it says at this point, but
when we get to that point, I'll certainly read it to make sure there is sufficient need.
Clearly /...it states that there's need ... they're not going to come in with a market
study that says otherwise.
Board Member Conneman — The other thing is that there is no elevations on this
and it seems to me that that site does have some slope in various ways and it would
be helpful, when he comes in, to have some elevations in there so we know how
much he has to fill, or how much he has to dig. 1.
Chairperson Wilcox — Let me start this discussion here.
Board Member Hoffmann — Can I pass this around?
Chairperson Wilcox — Be my guest.
Mr. Kanter — We also have a large set of drawings on the table over on the side of
the room if anyone wants to just take a look at them.
Chairperson Wilcox — My initial reaction.I Yrn not inclined to want to grant
variances ... or to recommend variances, we don't grant variances, we
recommend... I'm not inclined to recommend variances, whether it's a side yard
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 35
setback or a variance from the requirement that there can't be two drive - thru's within
15000feet.
Board Member Thayer — The only variance would be for the restaurant, right? The
hotel is okay?
Ms. Brock — No, no. The setbacks...
Mr. Kanter — The hotel needs buffer setback variances from the north and west
property lines.
Chairperson Wilcox — And the drive -thru would need a variance because it would be
within 1500 feet of the existing one.
Board Member Conneman — My recollection is that we indicated when we approved
Burger King that we we're not going to make this Elmira Road...that we were not
going to have any more hot dog stands up there. (inaudible) is a hot dog stand, in
my opinion.
Chairperson Wilcox — And hence the zoning says that you can't have two drive -
thru's within 1500 feet. It's pretty clear.
Ms. Brock — also, if either the restaurant serves alcoholic beverages, they have to
be at least 350 feet from a residence, from a residential zone. So, depending on
what happens there, that might be an additional variance that would be needed.
Board Member Thayer — If that's a Mc Donalds, then that...
Ms. Brock — We don't know who the tenants are.
Chairperson Wilcox — We've been very careful with the development up there.
Some people may disagree with us, but I think we've been very careful with it to
make sure that they conform to the zoning. Whether you like the zoning or not, the
zoning exists and we're bound by it, but I think we have been very careful to work
within the zoning to get a good Burger King. Actually a very good Burger King with
trees and a sign in the back and let alone the Rite Aid and how many times they
came and asked us for more signage than is allowed and we said no, no, no, what
do you not understand about the word no. So, the zoning exists for a reason.
Again, we need to hear from the applicant. They could make a compelling case...
Board Member Conneman — But please have them put elevations on it. I can't
make decisions...
Mr. Kanter — Well, normally you would see that at a later point. If there's going to be
feedback to the applicant that this proposal doesn't even make sense, we can;'t ask
them to put contours on that site plan yet.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 36
Board Member Conneman — But Jonathan, part of the decision may be that there is
a contour problem that you either have to did or:..
Chairperson Wilcox — We'll get that if he comes in for approval.
Board Member Hoffmann - But the one thing about this hotel, even just looking at
the footprint on the site plan, it's very large. For that site. And it's not only too close
to the western boundary and the northern boundary, but also on the south it is very
close to that detention pond. If you look at it, I didn't measure out how many feet,
but it's awfully close and just like with that hotel up at the corner of King Road and
Danby Road, it's too big. And they came back several times, decreasing it in size,
very little until we finally felt that maybe it was a reasonable size and I think this
applicant is going to have to. do the same.
Chairperson Wilcox — What about the pedestrian circulation for those people who
walk east on Mitchell Street and then need to be able. ..want to be able to cut across
and get to the East Hill Plaza. I'm not sure, given what we have in front of us, that
we have the pedestrians able to cross ... use the existing walkway. I don't think this'
is a safer placement than what they have available.
Mr. Kanter — It looks like there are four driveway cross things that .. ,
Chairperson Wilcox — You've got across from parking lot island to parking lot islands
in order to make it.
Board Member Hoffmann — Yeah, it's not ideal but 1 think the fact remains that
people are going to take the shortest way. Especially if they are carrying grocery
bags back with them to Maple Wood apartments or whatever. Many of those people
who live there don't have cars and I see them walking back and forth there all the
time. So, even if we were to put a walkway along Mitchell Street all the way up to
the corner and then continue somehow to the crossing, a lot of them would still
choose to cut through this. We'll just have to make sure that if we allow this
development, that we create the walkway in such a way that it's safe.
Chairperson Wilcox — Other concerns? Circulation on the site is a concern to me.
Traffic generated is a concern. I actually voted against the Burger King and my
concern was the traffic on Pine Tree Road. Specifically from Rout 79 towards the
Mitchell Street intersection because it's very narrow through there. There are many
people who walk through there and I was concerned about traffic and remain
concerned about traffic. So traffic studies will be important I think.
The hotel is interesting because very often the peak traffic trips in and out of hotel
are different from normal peak traffic on the roads. So the hotel may or may not be
a additional traffic at peak times. The concern would more be the restaurants or the
specialty retail it says on here.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 37
Board Member Conneman — The dumpster was in a strange place.
Chairperson Wilcox — Yeah, the dumpster is quite a distance from the hotel...
Board Member Conneman — They have no space there.
Chairperson Wilcox -- ...so they put it over there. That's odd. It.would appear they
have tried to wedge a hotel in there.
Board Member Thayer — We have the fire truck issue too.
Chairperson Wilcox — Absolutely, which is raised in Jonathans letter about access;
certainly to the rear of the building, by emergency equipment. That's certainly a
concern.
Mr. Kanter — Yeah, there is no space between the pond and the hotel to get anything
back there.
Chairperson Wilcox — That's right. And that would be worth... Alright...other
concerns? We talked about circulation, we talked about the size of the hotel or at
least the mass of the hotel.
Board Member. Hoffmann— You know, I know that this is not part of this site plan
review but I have heard rumors that Courtside might be sold, perhaps to Cornell.
Board Member Conneman — I have heard the same thing and I don't think we talked
to the same people.
Board Member Hoffmann— I am thinking that as a Planning Board, we should look at
the development overall instead of just piece by piece. I know that's not part of this
development but if we know something, we should take that into consideration when
we look at the development here. And I understand Cornell University also owns
that corner property where there's a little house, a residence, a former residence,
south of the. bank..:
Mr. Kanter — Yeah, that's basically an isolated parcel. It's basically an isolated
parcel.
Board Member Hoffmann— Right, but I can't imagine they are going to let that little
house sit there and not use it forever.
Mr..Kanter = It would be interesting to fit anything on there, given the setback and
buffer requirements in the commercial zone.
Board Member Conneman — Are we allowed to raise that with Cornell?
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 38
Chairperson Wilcox — Well the applicant is not Cornell.
Mr. Kanter — You can raise any zoning issue with Cornell.
Board Member Conneman — I don't mean an application, I mean that informally we
send Jonathan over to say "Hey, you guys got any ideas what you doing with
(inaudible)" and its effect on decisions we make. That's logical.
Mr. Kanter — Cornell is usually very good at communicating when they have a
proposal but when they don't ... you can't send me over and ask a question...
Board Member Conneman -- ...a whole agency doing a master plan..
Mr. Kanter — But not a master site plan.
Board Member Hoffmann— I think one of the things that it would be very useful to
have up here, not on that corner with a lot of traffic though, is a childcare center for
Cornell employees, for instance. That's not the right parcel for it because it's right
with all the traffic, but...
Board Member Conneman — Well it seems to me that we ought to be working with
various people to plan this to be a nice neighborhood area, not the Elmira Road.
Chairperson Wilcox -- Should we give the public a chance? They've been very,
very patient.
Ladies and Gentlemen, this is not a public hearing this evening but this Planning
Board has made it a practice to let the public speak as early as possible. I apologize
that the applicant has not shown up, or an agent of the applicant. We will have them
come back and make a presentation and we will give you a chance to speak at that
time. Nonetheless, you have sat here patiently and we appreciate it and if you
Would like to provide some comments and input, to this Board, we'd very much
appreciate it.
Ingrid Zabel, Honness Lane
I do feel a little strange making comments without the developer and you know, he
can't hear me, but go ahead... A few comments ... one specific about trees. I was
really disappointed in how many trees got cut down in building the Rite Aid and I'd
like whatever you decide, whatever the developer proposes, to try to get some more
trees planted. And then a broader comment, I like having East Hill Plaza, I love
having the P &C and the small businesses there, but I definitely don't want my
neighborhood becoming another Elmira Road with hotels, drive through restaurants;
whether they're fast food or not, it's probably fast food, so I would urge you not to
grant variances for those kinds of things. Thank you. . 1.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 39
Board Member Hoffmann— I should let you all know that Ingrid is my daughter.
Terri Terry, General. Manager, Best Western University Inn at East Hill Plaza
I am. not supportive of this project, since it will be directly across the street from my
hotel. In any event, I've been at the hotel for nineteen years. I've a lot of
experience. I've been in other communities where I have seen this happen,
where.. Yll go back here. Five years ago, this community, the hotels, we were
stable, a couple of years ago two hotels have come in a Hilton and a Hampton that
helped the hotels with the rates, I think, higher the rates, but occupancy overall,
statistics show, Smith Travel Resource and different things, that the occupancy has
dropped 4% in this area. This year, two more hotels are coming and we will see a
decrease again. It shows.room tax dollars, maybe up, but that is because right now,
at least these past two years, with the higher end signs coming in, the Hilton has
raised rates, but what's going to happen is it's all going to go down. Rates will down
eventually because of more competition... I've seen it in Binghamton, this happened
in the late 80's, it happened, the same thing. I'm just not supportive ... On the other
hand, on the non -hotel side, because I have been there so long, across the street
there traffic wise, in back of us there is the Summer Hill apartments that have just
developed that and there are students that walk through all day long, all hours of the
day, going into the plaza, walking across the street ... There has been so many
accidents at that intersection of people crossing over from East Hill to across Pine
Tree there, is what I am trying to say. The senior citizen home in back of us, and all
those people walk, they all go down to the bus, they all walk across the street to the
Rite Aid grocery store, the traffic is just ... and the nineteen years I've seen, it has just
increased so much and another hotel, a big hotel like that...We sit back, we're quiet,
you know it sits back ... there's not as.much traffic, I don't think, they can come in the
side or the front but this hotel just seems so large and, I don't ... I can't picture it all
stuffed in there, actually.
Board Member Mitrano
in the Binghamton area,
the result?
— You have experience with kind of development occurring
when it finally got saturated, did some close or what was
Ms. Terry — Some didn't make it and those who did was everybody was high 60 low
70 occupancy and then everybody dropped and you know, you level off rates go
down and you look at an average room rate in their community and it's much lower.
There are so many hotels. And I see that happening here.
Chairperson Wilcox — So what do you get? Do you get buildings that are vacant or
do you get run down buildings where the owner /operator doesn't have the money
to...
Ms. Terry — Well, what happens is different chains come in, you know, higher -end
sign or something, and everything changes. Say, for instance, Holiday Inn comes in
and they tell you you have to change this, you have to change this, you have to be
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg..40
more competitive with this Hilton coming in, things like that. They can't afford to
make the changes to keep up with the,..
Board Member Conneman — What kind of market study do you think they did?
haven't seen anything...
Ms. Terry — I heard that a market study was done. I'd like to see that, but I heard it
was done quite some time ago and I'd be interested to ask Fred if he had a copy or
he knew but,..
Board Member Conneman — We can look at that and raise that question.
Ms. Terry — Smith Travel Research... they do the research on the occupancy, that
may be something that you can look at and see the occupancy.
Board Member Hoffmann— The hotel at East Hill Plaza is owned by Cornell
University, is that right?
Ms. Terry The land is. We have a land lease with Cornell.
Board Member Hoffmann— Okay, so the hotel itself is not owned by the University.
Ms. Terry — That is correct.
Hollis Erb, Snyder Hill Road
This is still a residential neighborhood in the area around this intersection we have
one motel, one grocery store, one gas station, one drive -thru restaurant and one
pharmacy and that kind of development is sufficient for the neighborhood. Putting in
another hotel, especially one much bulkier than the Best Western, which I would
congratulate for having fit into the hillside, so to speak, just seems to me to be
inconsistent with this being, still, a neighborhood and I beg you not to give any
variances whatsoever; to be extremely cautious about where they are going to place
the signs now because of the obnoxious, gaudy, Rite Aid signs will have to be
counter - balanced by the new hotel signs. It's just inappropriate for a neighborhoodii
area. I looked at the site plan, I saw the care minimum for example, in terms of
landscaping. No, nothing that looks like a large enough area of landscaping for any
true soft- scaping that had any height at all with it. It's just bulky and not appropriate.
And I will do my best to speak when the applicant is here also. Thank you.
Harry Ellsworth, Honness Lane
I am appearing as a tax payer, not another board member. I think a lot of issues you
brought up when you first started talking about this project are important because
they've been a factor in Burger King, so on and so forth. This is a very, very, high
traffic intersection and it's going to increase because Cornell is building, what is it, a
three -story office building, I forget how many offices, 250, and there in they probably
need more places to eat at noon time but that office building is going to increase
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 41
traffic at that intersection. That intersection receives a tremendous amount of
Cornell traffic twice a day coming in from the Route 79. You've talked about the
senior citizens, waling to various places and the Rite Aid's moved across the street
now ... You also have the Cornell Quarters, or whatever they call it now. All those
students walking up there so what you've talked about needs consideration because
most of those students don't have cars and go up to get groceries and so on. It
seems to me that that motel /hotel is quite massive for the site but it also seems to
me that more eating facilities are needed in that area with that office building going
up. So, these are all issues to consider and I don't know why the planners can't give
whoever is going to appear for this project, the flavor of what's going on tonight so
they come prepared to deal with these issues on the preliminary site plan approval.
Chairperson Wilcox — Harry, before you leave, you make the point that putting a
restaurant there may in some ways reduce traffic because for the people who work
there, whether it's Cornell office space in the plaza or the new 60,000= square feet
office building being constructed, by having more choices there it is possible that
those employees could walk in that area rather than driving.
Mr. Ellsworth — That's another issue. Those employees, if this restaurant were to go
in there, are going to be crossing Pine Tree Road walking since it is only like half a;
block to get to these facilities. So the pedestrian traffic is going to increase at that
intersection substantially. As well as there will be some increase, some of the soft:.
off -peak times, but there will be some increase in traffic for what ever goes in there.
Board Member Mitrano — Jonathan, do we know whether that new office building
that Cornell is building will have a cafeteria in it? You know many of the buildings
do, right inside the building.
Mr. Kanter — That's a good question. We did see the floor plan and I don't
remember seeing anything like that in it, probably because it is right next to East Hill
Plaza. We can check on it but I am pretty sure there was not anything like that in
there.
Chairperson Wilcox - anybody else? Fred? Come on....you don't want to be on
the record?
Board Member Conneman — You should get the definition of restaurant when we
face this guy, too. And McDonalds is not a restaurant.
MR. Kanter — Actually the pedestrian and traffic issue relates directly to whether it
should or shouldn't be a drive -thru because if in fact it's meant to serve the
immediate office and other uses there, there is no reason people should have to get
in their cars just to drive to the restaurant.
Chairperson Wilcox — Usually I ask the applicant if there is anything else that they
would like to hear but they're not here tonight.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 42
We heard ... I don't think we mentioned lighting but we always deal with lighting.
Landscaping; I think this Board has a habit of always asking for more landscaping.''.
Come to us with whatever you think is sufficient and I guarantee we'll find places
where you should put more.
I think we've covered just about everything.
Board Member Mitrano — Could Susan ... Susan, could you remind of of what the
criteria are for how we might evaluate this such that if we did say no, totally, to a
hotel, what criteria would we have to base that decision on?
Ms. Brock — Because there are more than 30 rooms in the hotel it needs a special
permit, so you would look at the special permit criteria there in the Town Code,
Section 270 - 200...
Board Member Mitrano — And if it got under 30 ... then we're on to another set of
criteria?
Ms. Brock — Then they wouldn't need the special permit ... in that zone.
Mr. Kanter — Yes, this is the community commercial zone ... that's the larger of the
commercial zones
Board Member Mitrano — So then what would we have to be thinking about in those
terms?
Ms. Brock — If the special permit is required? If it's over 30 rooms?
Board Member Mitrano — No. Say they come in with a proposal that is below that?
Ms. Brock — Oh. Below that number.
Chairperson Wilcox —Then it would be a normal site plan considerations.
Ms. Brock — Well, it's a use as of right. So, because it would be zoned for that use,
you wouldn't really look at need because the Town Board has already made the
determination through the zoning that that use is appropriate in that location, or in
that zone. So instead you would look at issues such as drainage, lighting, traffic,
visual aesthetic determinations..
Chairperson Wilcox — They've determined that under 30 or less, they have
determined that it doesn't have an impact. But if they go more than thirty, then we
go to the special permit...
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 43
Ms. Brock — Right, and one of the things under the special permit criteria are that
the use will fill a neighborhood or community need. That actually is one of the things.
that you can look at. If, in fact, a special permit will be required.
Board Member Conneman — The other thing you should reread is signs. I recently
reread, like this morning, the discussion with this developer about signs and it is less
than intriguing to read it. So, signs will be an issue. If you read that, it will be
unbelievable.
Board Member Hoffmann— There are two things about lighting that came up for me.
One is I noticed that all of the parking lights or the lights in the parking lot or the
lights in general around the new Rite Aid are ... have bluish color light as compared to
a yellowish color light that's all over East Hill Plaza and if you have seen the big
sign, it's kind o a horizontal sign with a light inside ... that has a bluish light too, that
says Rite Aid. I have realized that I personally have gotten to prefer the more
yellowish light because it looks warmer. It looks more pleasant. So I think that in
the future when we do things with developments that are so close to each other, we
have to think about the color of the lighting. And I didn't, until I have seen this now.
The other thing about the lights is that I've noticed that as I drive from downtown on
Mitchell Street up to East Hill Plaza when it is dark, there are some lights on the
canopy of the HSBC Bank which blind me. Now that the trees have been cut down
and they are these kind of spot lights that come out and there's probably an ATM
there and they were put up probably because they had to be put up by the State
requirement and they have probably been there for a long time but we haven't seen
them because the trees shielded them. So, that's something we need to make sure
to correct when we deal with this site plan even though it is not on the same parcel.
But what happens on this parcel affects the other one.
Chairperson Wilcox - We will do what we can. It is tough to go back on another
parcel, legally. We can ask them to be friendly. Absolutely, we can ask.
Mr. Kanter — But on the other hand, I think that Eva is suggesting that the
landscaping plan for this phase 2 site, at least along Mitchell Street, will grow back
and shield some of the glare.
Chairperson Wilcox — We certainly had hoped that more of the trees surrounding
the old schoolhouse, for example, on Mitchell Street would have been retained when
the house was demolished and unfortunately... they weren't.
Board Member Hoffmann -m Not only the trees, but the shrubbery. And you know,
since I live up there, I was able to see what happened. They did not take it all down
in connection with tearing down that house. Most of it came down after that. So it
wasn't a result of taking down the house at all. I think it...
Chairperson Wilcox — It was a conscious decision to remove it.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 44
Board Member Hoffmann— Yes, that's what I think. And I also think that in the future
we are going to have to make our language much, much tougher so that people
can't get away with this sort of thing. Cutting down more than we have indicated
they ought to cut down. It's a very important neighborhood issue.
Board Member Conneman — There is an old joke, Eva, that says a developer is
someone who cuts all the trees down and then names the streets Oak, Maple, Elm
and Cherry.
Chairperson Wilcox — Anything else on this particular agenda item?
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
Ms. Brock — I have one change. On page 45, under my comment, this is when
was disclosing my prior involvement with Ithacare, the fifth line from the bottom of
.my comments, the word Ithaca should read Ithacare.
Board Member Hoffmann — I already passed in my version with some suggested
corrections. So since I have read all the minutes completely through, I can vote for
them.
ADOPTED RESOLUTION:
PB RESOLUTION NO. 2006 =119
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
NOVEMBER 21, 2006
MOTION by Chairperson Wilcox, seconded by Board Member Talty.
RESOLVED, that the Planning Board does hereby approve and adopts the
November 21, 2006 minutes as the official minutes of the Town of Ithaca Planning
Board for the said meeting with corrections.
The vote on the motion resulted as follows:
AYES: Wilcox, Conneman, Thayer, Howe, Hoffmann, Mitrano and Talty.
NAYS: None.
The vote on the motion was carried.
OTHER BUSINESS
Chairperson Wilcox — Tomorrow night at Northeast Elementary School is the
Northeast Stormwater Management Presentation at 7:00p.m. Dan, this is your
baby? This is something that has come about in response to the residents of the
Sapsucker Woods area and their ongoing issues with their drainage issues. And to
some extent, certainly, the proposed new development and the belief that it could
exacerbate their issues.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 45
Mr. Walker — This is a continuation of a 15 -year program of stormwater management
in the northeast, just so people understand that we've done a lot of work, down
around Winthrop Drive, Christopher Circle, the Dewitt Pond and the plan is
proceeding, we've been studying this for a long time and we are getting up to the
point where we can hopefully do some improvements in the Salem Drive area.
Maybe in conjunction with the Briar Wood project, depending on what the Corp
Engineer says, and also in conjunction with the improvements the County is
planning when and if they reach Hanshaw Road. So, we are going to be...my civil
engineer, Kristen Taylor, has developed a good presentation along with Creig
Hebdon, my Assistant Engineer and they are going to be telling everybody what we
have been doing and. then we will be asking for comments and ...
Chairperson Wilcox - You're also going to get back a lot of feedback on the existing
project.
Mr. Walker — As we did a number of years ago.
Chairperson Wilcox — Alright. I plan on being there, any body who has the
opportunity to go and listen.
George, you were at the Department of State last...
Board Member Conneman — Eva was and so was Jonathan
Chairperson Wilcox —Any comments?
Board Member Conneman — My comment was that Lori and Larry, the two people
who were there did an outstanding job. There was one. person who raised a lot of
questions about everything, and in every case they explained it to this person and
they were correct. They reinforced the idea of the Planning Board as independent
and that the Planning Board does in fact, this Planning Board, does things right. I
mean, that's my opinion. I don't know what anybody else thought but, Jonathan, is
that fair?
Mr. Kanter - Yeah. I'd say very fair.
Board Member Hoffmann— I thought it was very good.
Board Member Conneman — I was prepared ... I am always suspicious of people
from Albany, but these two did very well.
Mr. Kanter — I think they are very experienced and knowledgeable and they go out of
Albany so often, inter the hinterlands, that they, I think they are more local than
Albany people. Even though they work for Albany.
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 46
Board Member Conneman — They really have been down in the trenches on all
these issues and they knew a bunch of things that had happened across the state
and I was impressed.
Mr. Kanter — And by the way, we did tape it and the video tape seems to have come
out quite well. So if anyone wants to look at it, we have it-in our office.
Board Member Conneman — The video tape, along with their handout, would be
excellent if you have some...
Mr. Kanter — It's actually on our internal website, but I think it's not formatted to be
on the general town website, it's too big of a file. But if anyone wants to see it we
can make it available.
Chairperson Wilcox — The Town has the official website, www.town.ithaca.ny.us
but Town of Ithaca.com works. You guys grabbed Town of Ithaca and it works.
DECEMBER 19TH AGENDA
Mr. Kanter— It looks like we have that childcare center addition on Warren Road
coming in and then we have a couple of lot -line modifications and then a number of
business items like the 2007 meeting schedule, the recommendation for a Chair,
that kind of stuff.
Board Member Mitrano — I will be absent for it, in Pittsburg.
Chairperson Wilcox — Who's term is up this year?
Mr. Kanter — Ms. Mitrano,
Board Member Mitrano — Yes, and I am afraid I will not be returning. 1 have -taken
on more responsibilities at Cornell, so, this might be my last meeting, and I thank
you all very much.
Chairperson Wilcox — More responsibilities?
Board Member Mitrano — Yes.
Chairperson Wilcox — That's good. Alright so, Tracey might not be able to make the
19th but do we have any other issues?
Mr. Kanter — If anyone would like a copy of the market study for the hotel, we can
certainly make copies. Should we just send it out for the next one? (yes)
Adjournment
Meeting adjourned at 9:02
Final PB Minutes
Dec. 5, 2006 Pg. 47
ubm
Paulette Neilsen
Deputy Town Clerk
TOWN OF ITHACA PLANNING BOARD
215 North Tioga Street
Ithaca, New York 14850
Tuesday, December 5, 2006
AGENDA
7:00 P.M. Persons to be heard (no more than five minutes).
7:05 P.M. SEQR Determination: Overlook at West Hill Light Fixtures, West Hill Circle,
7:05 P.M. PUBLIC HEARING: Consideration of Preliminary and Final Site Plan approval for a modification to
the Overlook at West Hill development located off Trumansburg Road on West Hill Circle, Town of
Ithaca Tax Parcel No.'s 24 -4 -14.23 and 24 -4- 14.24, Multiple Residence Zone. The modification includes
replacing the previously installed unshielded wall pack lights at all exterior doorways and porches in the
Phase 1 a development with new fully shielded wall mounted light fixtures. The installed light fixtures are
decorative in nature, but do not conform with the site plan approved by the Planning Board on April 20,
2004 (PB Resolution No. 2004 -032), which included shielded, full cutoff light fixtures to prevent
unnecessary glare and light spillage. The modification would also apply to all buildings in the Phase lb
development. Overlook at West Hill, LP, Owner; David Brewster, Agent.
7 :15 P.M. PUBLIC HEARING: Consideration of a Recommendation to the Town of Ithaca Town Board regarding
a local law amending Chapter 270 of the Code of the Town of Ithaca titled "Zoning" regarding the use of
Planning Board alternate members.
7:30 P.M. SEQR Determination: Rite Aid Pharmacy Fence, Pine Tree Road & Mitchell Street.
7:30 P.M. PUBLIC HEARING: Consideration of Preliminary and Final Site Plan approval for a modification to
the Rite Aid Pharmacy development located at 330 Pine Tree Road, Town of Ithaca.Tax Parcel No.'s 62-
1-3.2, 62- 1 -2.2, and 62 -1 -1, Community Commercial Zone. The required modification includes
permitting the installed 6 -foot high chain link fence around the storm drainage pond to remain. The
installed fence does not conform with the site plan approved by the Planning Board on December 6, 2005,
which did not show any fence in this location. 1093 Group, LLC, Owner /Applicant; William A.
Paladino, Agent.
7:45 P.M. Consideration of a Sketch Plan review for a proposed hotel and two restaurant / retail buildings as part of
the Phase II Development of the former Judd Falls Plaza located off Pine Tree Road and Mitchell Street,
Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No.'s 62- 1 -3.2, 62- 1 -2.2, and 62. -1 -1, Community Commercial Zone. The
proposal includes a three -story, +/- 60,507 square foot hotel containing approximately 84 rooms and two
restaurant / retail buildings totaling +/- 7,900 square feet. The proposal will also include improvements to
the parking area along with new walkways and landscaping. 1093 Group, LLC, Owner /Applicant;
William A. Paladino, Agent.
8. Persons to be heard (continued from beginning of meeting if necessary).
9. Approval of Minutes: November 21, 2006.
10, Other Business:
11, Adjournment,
Jonathan Kanter, AICP
Director of Planning
273 -1747
NOTE: IF ANY MEMBER OF THE PLANNING BOARD IS UNABLE TO ATTEND, PLEASE NOTIFY
SANDY POLCE AT 2734747.
(A quorum of four (4) members is necessary to conduct Planning Board business.)
TOWN OF ITHACA PLANNING BOARD
NOTICE OF PUBLIC HEARINGS.
Tuesday, December 5, 2006
By direction of the Chairperson of the Planning Board, NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that Public Hearings
will be held by the Planning Board of the Town of Ithaca on Tuesday, December 5, 2006, at 215 North Tioga
Street, Ithaca, N.Y., at the following times and on the following matters:
7:05 P.M. Consideration of Preliminary and Final Site Plan approval for a modification to the
Overlook at West Hill development located off Trumansburg Road on West Hill Circle,
Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No.'s 24 -4 -14.23 and 24 -4- 14.24, Multiple Residence Zone.
The modification includes replacing the previously installed unshielded wall pack lights
at all exterior doorways and porches in the Phase 1 a development with new fully shielded
wall mounted light fixtures. The installed light fixtures are decorative in nature, but do
not conform with the site plan approved by the Planning Board on April 20, 2004 (PB
Resolution No. 2004 -032), which included shielded, full cutoff light fixtures to prevent
unnecessary glare and light spillage. The modification would also apply to all buildings
in the Phase, lb development. Overlook at West Hill, LP, Owner; David Brewster,
Agent.
7:15 P.M. Consideration of a Recommendation to the Town of Ithaca Town Board regarding a local
law amending Chapter 270 of the Code of the Town of Ithaca titled "Zoning" regarding
the use of Planning Board alternate members.
7:30 P.M. Consideration of Preliminary and Final Site Plan approval for a modification to the Rite
Aid Pharmacy development located at 330 Pine Tree Road, Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel
No.'s 62- 1 -3.2, 62- 1 -2.2, and 62 -1 -1, Community Commercial Zone. The required
modification includes permitting the installed 6 -foot high chain link fence around the
storm drainage pond to remain. The installed fence does not conform with the site plan
approved by the Planning Board on December 6, 2005, which did not show any fence in
this location. 1093 Group, LLC, Owner /Applicant; William A. Paladino, Agent.
Said Planning Board will at said times and said place hear all persons in support of such matters or objections
thereto. Persons may appear by agent or in person. Individuals with visual impairments, hearing
impairments or other special needs, will be provided with assistance as necessary, upon request. Persons
desiring assistance must make such a request not less than 48 hours prior to the time of the public hearings.
Jonathan Kanter, AICP
Director of Planning
273 -1747
Dated: Monday, November 27, 2006
Publish: Wednesday, November 29, 2006
WednesdayrtNovember 29; 2006 � THE ITHACAIOURNAL �_
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Town of Ithaca
Planning Board.
215 North Tioga Street
December 5, 2006
7:00 p.m.
PLEASE SIGN4N
Please Print Clearly, Thank You
Name Address
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TOWN OF ITHACA
AFFIDAVIT OF POSTING AND PUBLICATION
I, Sandra Polce, being duly sworn, depose and say that I am a Senior Typist for the Town of
Ithaca, Tompkins County, New York; that the following Notice has been duly posted on the sign
board of the Town of Ithaca and that said Notice has been duly published in the local newspaper,
The Ithaca Journal.
Notice of Public Hearings to be held by the Town of Ithaca Planning Board in the Town of Ithaca
Town Hall 215 North Tioga Street Ithaca, New York, on Tuesday, December 5, 2006
commencing at 7:00 P.M., as per attached.
Location of Sign Board used for Posting: Town Clerk Sign Board — 215 North Tioga Street.
Date of Posting:
Date of Publication
November 27, 2006
November 29, 2006
Sandra Polce, Senior Typist
Town of Ithaca
STATE OF NEW YORK) SS:
COUNTY OF TOMPKINS)
Sworn to and subscribed before me this 29`h day of November 2006.
G"
Notary Public
CONNIE F. CLARK
Notary Public, State of New York
No. 01CL6052878
Qualified in Tompkins County
Commission Expires December 26, 20