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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB Minutes 1996-12-03• TOWN OF ITHACA PLANNING BOARD DECEMBER 3. 1996 FILED TOWN OF ITHACA � Date_.! //� Clerk o! The Town of Ithaca Planning Board met in regular session on Tuesday, December 3, 1996, in Town Hall, 126 East Seneca Street, Ithaca, New York, at 7:30 p.m. PRESENT: Vice Chairperson Eva Hoffmann, James Ainslie, Herbert Finch, Fred Wilcox, Gregory Bell, Jonathan Kanter (Director of Planning), John Barney (Attorney for the Town), Daniel Walker (Director of Engineering), JoAnn Cornish (Planner), George Frantz (Assistant Town Planner). ALSO PRESENT: Evan Monkemeyer, Larry Fabbroni, Andrea Coby. Vice Chairperson Eva Hoffmann declared the meeting duly opened at 7:36 p.m. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann read the Fire Exit Regulations to those assembled, as required by the New York State Department of State, Office of Fire Prevention and Control. AGENDA ITEM: PERSONS TO BE HEARD. There being no one present who wished to speak, Vice Chairperson Hoffmann closed this segment of the meeting. AGENDA ITEM: CONSIDERATION OF A RECOMMENDATION TO THE TOWN OF ITHACA TOWN BOARD REGARDING THE POSSIBLE SUBSTITUTION OF A PARCEL THAT WAS INTENDED TO BE DEDICATED AS A TOWN PARK FOR ANOTHER PARCEL ON OWNER'S LAND. THE ORIGINAL PARCEL, CONSISTING OF 108 +/- ACRES, INTENDED AS TOWN PARKLAND IS LOCATED ON EAST KING ROAD ADJACENT TO THE MONTESSORI SCHOOL, AND IS PART OF TAX PARCEL NO. 43- 1 -3.2. EVAN MONKEMEYER, OWNER /AGENT: Vice Chairperson Hoffmann duly opened the above - mentioned matter at 7:38 p.m. Director of Planning Jonathan Kanter stated that the Town was supposed to receive the 1.8 +/- acre parcel next to the Montessori School for parkland in conjunction with the original subdivision fronting on East King Road. This subdivision included the Montessori School site in 1987. The Town Board, in 1987, was asked to accept the park as a public park, which the Town Board did by resolution, but the deed was never transferred to the Town of Ithaca. Nothing has happened with this parkland until Evan Monkemeyer came into the Planning Department with a sketch plan for subdivision of his East King Road parcel. The current subdivision proposal is called' Ithaca Estates ", and the older subdivision was also called "Ithaca Estates ". The names need to be referred to as phasing, so people will not get confused., Mr. Kanter stated that the Board will have a discussion with Mr. Monkemeyer with regard to what people agree is the best approach for the proposed park. hIn conjunction to that, what would be the best solution for a park in this general area of South Hill. Mr. Kanter stated that he and Planner Cornish visited the proposed park site next to the Montessori • PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 2 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 School last week. There had been some substantial rainfall that turned into snow. Mr. Kanter stated that they saw a bit of surface runoff going over the proposed park site. Mr. Kanter stated that the slope is fairly gentle, but it was very evident that there was quite a bit of water on the site that runs down toward the Montessori School site. There is a stream running across the southern part of the site. Mr. Kanter pointed out on the map entitled "Ithaca Estates Phase II" dated 1987, which was the original subdivision plat for the Ithaca Estates Subdivision, showing the lots running along East King Road, the Montessori School site, and the proposed Town park site. The actual square footage was 77,109, which is approximately seven +/- acres. Mr. Kanter stated that he roughly drew a line where a drainage ditch is that drains to the east through the proposed park site towards the Montessori School site. This area would not be classified as wetland, but there are wet areas associated with the stream system. Mr. Kanter stated that he is glad they visited the site, because he does not think it has been closely looked at in recent years. Evan Monkemeyer of 123 East King .Road, stated that the wetness they saw on the property was attributed to the dike -style dam /pond that is approximately one acre in size to the east of that. There is a drainage way that comes from the east, to the top of the hill from the swamp, heading down behind these lots. There is a drainage swale or ditch that has been improved behind both Phase I and Phase II subdivisions which diverts into the pond. The pond was constructed by the Highway Department a number of years ago, and it does not retain water because it leaks. The water goes out underground and comes up in spots that Mr. Kanter and Ms. Cornish noticed on their site visit. This was never ditched or diverted. Planner JoAnn Cornish asked Mr. Monkemeyer if this site was wet on a normal basis. When she and Mr. Kanter visited the site there was a lot of rainfall. The land had standing water approximately six to eight inches deep in places. Mr. Monkemeyer stated that there is no ditch to direct or control the water. The water would then disperse across the site. The spillway is probably as wide as the board room, which is a large pond when the water flows from the hill. As it dumps into the pond, it would spill out three or four inches deep on the sides. There is no diversion ditch to take the water so it spreads out on the land. Mr. Monkemeyer stated that he mentioned to the School in the proposal of the sale to them, that this could be controlled. There may be a solution to changing the water course to follow another path that would allow the land to be used. Director of Planning Kanter stated that this is a big enough site, so the wet area is only part of the site, the northern part of the stream.area is much drier, and there would be room within the site to do various things. Board Member James Ainslie stated that if the Town gets one and a half more inches of rain, the Town would have the highest rainfall for this time of year in the history of the weather bureau in this area. Mr. Kanter and Ms. Cornish have seen the water at its maximum, which was a good thing because this is probably the wettest year the Town has seen in quite a while. In a normal year, it • PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 3 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 would have never looked like this. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that while reading through the old minutes and from earlier discussions of this property, the recommendations for this park has been for a smaller area park. The proposed park site is too small for any active playing fields, which the Open Space Plan is calling for in this area. This is an additional problem with accepting this piece of land as a Town park, as compared to trying to put together a larger piece of land from several parcels in this area. Board Member Herbert Finch stated that he does not have a problem with the idea of the Town exchanging park sites. His only concern is not to get a piece of land on a hillside where people cannot get to it. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that she likes the idea of substituting the land for a piece of land in the eastern corner, so the Montessori School could add the proposed town park land to their property. Board Member Finch stated that he is not objecting to the land swap. He is not sure that this Board is in a position to tell Mr. Monkemeyer to give the Town the other land as well. The corner Mr. Monkemeyer is proposing to develop fits into the plans at hand. Attorney for the Town John Barney stated that it would be something that Mr. Monkemeyer would do voluntarily. The issue is to surrender the Town's rights and the proposed Town park, by taking the corners of the Monkemeyer properties to make a larger park area. Director of Planning Kanter stated that the exchange is the primary decision tonight. The Town Board has the authority to make the'decision, but this Board could make a recommendation to the Town Board. As the Board goes through the subdivision process for this new subdivision parcel, this Board could set it up to combine the park with the two adjacent pieces of land to make a fairly substantial park. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann asked Mr. Monkemeyer if he is familiar with what the Board is talking about. Mr. Monkemeyer responded, yes. He wanted to thank the staff for a wonderful job on finding all the notes and minutes from the past meetings. Mr. Monkemeyer stated that he is willing to work with the Town in any way he can to establish another park site on the hill, and to have the Planning Staff find something that makes the most sense. There are some elevations that allow people to take advantage of views. There are some level areas where the three Monkemeyer parcels join, which the Planning Staff is interested in. Mr. Monkemeyer stated that he wanted to find out if the Town could have a park on South Hill that would give an active park for a plateau that would be level. The Planning Staff might be able to combine some steep slopes with some views as well as 6 PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 4 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 some level playing areas. Director of Planning Kanter stated that past site visits of the three Monkemeyer parcels has been observed by the Planning Staff. The northwest corner of Mr. Monkemeyer's parcel (3.32) on the map entitled "Location Map: Proposed Ithaca Estates Subdivision and Proposed Park Site Adjacent to Montessori School, East King Road" dated November 26, 1996, was very gently sloped, further east it became more level. Mr. Kanter stated that further west, on the hill, it starts sloping down more and more. The northeast part of the Herbert Monkemeyer Trust Parcel (3.2) is where the slope begins to become more noticeable, and that is actually where some of the nice views are, looking towards the West Hill area. This would not be a good place for ball fields, but it could be combined, such as a parking area, picnic tables, and sitting areas to take advantage of the views. The athletic fields could begin to go eastward from that. The Lenora Monkemeyer parcel, which is north of the Evan and Herbert Monkemeyer parcels, has some very nice gentle sloping land in the south central part of her parcel. Further west it begins to slope more steeply. Mr. Kanter stated that this Board cannot say tonight where the park will go, but can discuss opportunities for combining land for a larger community park. After the Board agrees to this, they could decide what types of facilities would be in the community park. Board Member Wilcox stated that Mr. Kanter is recommending taking the proposed town park site and exchanging it for a piece in the northern corner of the Herbert Monkemeyer Trust parcel, plus adding some land from Lenora and Evan Monkemeyer's parcels to get the suggested Town park. Director of Planning Kanter stated that Planner Cornish has put together some schematic information to give the Board an indication on how much space would be needed for the type of facilities the Planning Staff is talking about. The intent of these drawings is not to suggest any specific location, but to show some options of what the Town could do. Most importantly, to give some good indication of how many acres are needed for a football field, how many square feet are needed for a tennis court, etc. This is the type of information that Planner Cornish has put together. Planner Cornish stated that the Planning staff wanted to give the Board an idea of the spacial relationships of certain types of activities recommended for South Hill. If the Town does go with a park larger than one of the standard neighborhood parks, these larger parks require a lot more space, because a football field and a soccer field are quite large. Ms. Cornish showed the Board what could be done on four acres of land for a park with play fields and a parking area. She also provided numbers to give the Board ideas of how much space activities take. If the Town was to get this portion of the Monkemeyer property for a park, it could be added on to for a larger park in the future. There are several ways to configure "a park of any size. Ms. Cornish stated that there would need to be consideration for how many parking spaces would be needed for a park area. Director of Planning Kanter stated that the Planning staff would need to look at the road PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 5 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 system more closely in order to access this piece of land through surrounding Monkemeyer parcels. These could be talked about in future sketch plan reviews. This area of the South Hill has a lot of potential for a lot of different types of things. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that when she first saw the example drawings Planner Cornish prepared, that she was worried there would be very active activities close to the buffer area. Planner Cornish stated that the Planning staff has thought about that, and assured Ms. Hoffmann that these drawings are only examples to give the Board spacial relationships. If this was actually going to be designed, these would need to be considered. Board Member Bell stated that he understands that the Planning Staff was trying to show the Board how a large community park could be laid out. He would not recommend this to be that way. Not only would the ballfields be close to the buffer zone, but the ballfields would be in back yards. There would not be any room to do anything for spectators or rest room areas. There would probably be room for one ball field, not both of them. Mr. Bell stated that his main concern is the road issue. He has a problem with the incremental approach that this proposal is going through. He would like to see some sort of longer range, bigger plans for all of this. Mr. Bell stated that he knows this is not how this Board does things, but he would like to have an idea of what Mr. 40 Monkemeyer has in mind. This Board needs to know where this would come out onto Route 96, and this Board should get more information before making any decisions. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that on the plans supplied by Mr. Monkemeyer, he has proposed a future road extension to the west. Board Member Bell stated that would never work if the Town decides to have the park there. Director of Planning Kanter stated that this relates to the sketch plan layout of Phase II. Phase II would probably change in configuration if the Town was to do a park like this. The Board is looking at several decisions that all fit together. Mr. Kanter asked the Board if they would be interested in recommending this proposal to the Town Board. The Planning Board was in agreement to push forward on this proposal for a recommendation to the Town Board for further consideration. Mr. Monkemeyer stated that he has told the Montessori School if they needed additional land to the north of their property, plus the land he is considering to sell them with approval from the Town, that those lands would also be available to the School in the future. Attorney Barney asked Mr. Monkemeyer if he has a problem with the concept the Planning Staff is suggesting with the combining corners of the properties. • PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 6 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 Mr. Monkemeyer responded, no. Board Member Wilcox stated that when this Board talks about the Ithaca Estates Subdivision Phase (,.this Board should discuss taking 10 percent for dedicated park land. Attorney Barney stated that there would be a problem if the Town did not do that. As part of the subdivision plans for the new subdivision, there would be a mechanism built in for dedication of a park with an easement for access to the park. Director of Planning Kanter stated that this would be the same as the Buttermilk Estates Park, which if Phase II road never happens the Town would have a right -of -way to get to the park. Andrea Coby, Administrator of the Montessori School, stated that they are in the process of exploring the possibilities of expanding their program through middle school, including seventh and eighth grades. The addition of more land would certainly make it more comfortable to do. Board Member Wilcox asked if the School likes the proposed town park site. Ms. Coby stated that she is concerned about the water, but it does back the School's property. toIt would not make sense to put another building very far away. The Planning Board was in agreement to go to the Town Board with a recommendation to do the land swap for the park land. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann duly closed the above - mentioned matter at 8:14 p.m. AGENDA ITEM: DISCUSSION OF DRAINAGE ISSUES /PROBLEMS IN NORTHEAST AREA OF TOWN, IN PARTICULAR RELATING TO SANCTUARY WOODS SUBDIVISION, LOCATED AT SANCTUARY DRIVE OFF SAPSUCKER WOODS ROAD (DAN WALKER, TOWN ENGINEER), Vice Chairperson Hoffmann duly opened the above - mentioned matter at 8:15 p.m. Director of Engineering Daniel Walker stated that in 1994, the Town of Ithaca approved the Sanctuary Drive Subdivision off Sapsucker Woods Road. During discussions at that time, there was concerns about the wetness of the area in terms of what was going to happen there. In the approved plans there was a road way that would be raised with drainage going to the north with the general drainage patterns of the area. In discussions of the wetness of the area, it would limit basements for these houses. Approximately three weeks ago, the Engineering staff discovered that the Town's water main had been uncovered by a deep ditch. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann asked Mr. Walker if the developer is the one who dug the ditch. ® PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 7 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 Director of Engineering Walker responded, yes. There are two drainage ditches in back of each lot, which were not in the proposed subdivision. There was a ditch dug draining to the south towards Briarwood, which is a concern because the general drainage patterns were flowing north and west towards Salem Drive. There have „been significant drainage problems in the Maplewood, Pinewood, n I e ood a d Salem Drive areas in terms of flooding. r. Lucente has done additional drainage 9 9 work over the past few years for the Briarwood area. There have been increased drainage problems along the south of Salem Drive, where the water goes into the back lots. This drainage system is significantly different than the original proposal that the Board approved originally. The developer made a considuous decision to go with very large houses, which are approximately 4,000 square feet with full basements. Mr. Walker stated that as an engineer, that this would be a very difficult situation with the water table being high in ilthis area. In the process of building the house on lot number 12, the developer realized he put the basement three or four feet below the original grade. They would not be able to get adequate drainage for footer drains there. The developer proceeded to dig a drainage ditch behind these properties, which was three foot deep over the Town's water main that is only four feet deep. The Town's water main needs to be covered if it has not been yet. Mr. Walker stated that he provided some advice to the developer who did not change his mind in regards to eliminating the basements from these houses because of the high water table conditions. Changing the surface water patterns is unacceptable because there are too many drainage problems .to the south of the property now. The surface water from the roadway would primarily drain to the west in ditches, which are approximately two feet deep. During construction of the road, they raised the road profile a foot to stay out of the water more. It would then generally flow to the north through the culvert, which crosses the Town's sewer right -of -way at the northwestern corner of the parcel that Rocco Lucente owns. The Town has an easement for the Town's water and sewer lines from Mr. Lucente. The Town's trail also crosses the west end of the row. The drainage swales run to the north behind each lot to provide localized drainage for the houses. The developer has placed fill in the center of each lot to raise the grade two or three feet. By putting a high -grade house on something like this with a crawl space, it would provide a fairly safe structure as far as ground water is concerned. To get enough grade to drain the footers from the first house, they excavated a two to three foot ditch at the upper end to continue down along the northern boundary lines of the lots along Sanctuary Drive to a point at the western end. Then they proceeded to dig a ditch with a grade draining to the south, which is in the opposite direction the water is anticipated to go. It then jogs slightly to the west and back to the north again. That ditch is approximately six inches to a foot closer to the Town's culvert. This was done in a vertical slope, and was done in the Town's road right -of -way without permission. The developer was informed, and he agreed to correct that situation. Mr. Larry Fabbroni (the developer's Engineer) has prepared a modified drainage plan, which attempts to provide a solution to draining the basements without materially affecting the subdivision as it was intended. Mr. Fabbroni is proposing a self - service drainage system that is an underground pipe to extend back to the lots of number 4 and 8. A 12 -inch drain for the north side and a six -inch drain on the south side would be for subsurface drainage of the foundations. Then these shallow open ditches would be connected in a drainage pattern to the north. This would not greatly alter the surface water flows. It would mitigate the concerns of water flow to the southwest. Mr. Walker stated that the water would eventually enter back into the same general drainage basin S PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 8 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED = DECEMBER 17, 1996 on Warren Road, but the area of Maplewood and Pinewood would be impacted. The developer did agree to fill in the ditch that runs south of Briarwood, which brings the Board back to the original plan. Mr. Walker stated that he just wanted to report this to the Board because if the developer persisted in putting surface drainage to the south it would be a significant problem. It would also be a significant change to what was approved by this Board, so it would need to come before the Board for further review. Mr. Walker stated that he is not going to recommend to the developer that this drainage plan be implemented. He is still going to recommend to the developer, in writing, that houses with deep basements in this soil and water conditions are not recommended as good engineering practice. Mr. Walker stated that the developer's engineer mentioned the same thing to him. If the developer persists in doing this as far as the building code is concerned, the developer does not have to hook up to all the drainage, but needs to have pumps to provide safety to the buildings. Mr. Walker stated that one of the concerns is that this area has been developed with deep basements in poor drainage areas, and the Town has, on an average of 10 to 15 complaints when it rains hard, that people's drains are backing up. The staff is trying to mitigate future complaints, which the Town does not have any real responsibility for. Each lot up stream is of concern because they need adequate access and legal permission to use an easement to drain across other properties. Mr. Walker stated that he has asked the developer to provide that kind of information before they get a building permit to show that they have legal reliable outlets. That would protect the need for permission to cross other properties. Mr. Walker stated that the cul -de -sac is off the todeveloper's property. Steven and Pat Lucente own the area that the actual subdivision is on. The Town has an easement for a trail to cross through Rocco Lucente's land, and the Town also has an easement for the cul -de -sac for the turn around. The Town has the easement for the cul -de -sac until there is a road built. There is one acre set aside for Town park land. Attorney Barney asked Mr. Walker where the footer drain would exit off the subdivision. Director of Engineering Walker stated that there was a ditch dug without permission to exit towards the northwest to an existing drainage way. Attorney Barney asked Mr. Walker if he is talking about the underground drains. Director of Engineering Walker responded, yes. Board Member Wilcox asked Mr. Walker if he considers these buildable lots. Director of Engineering Walker responded, yes, but without basements. This is a seasonal high water table year with very wet soils. It took the developer approximately one year to build these houses because it has been a wet season. The road base has been built at a stable way and the pads were built to be kept above the water table. The water table is within two feet of the surface. soBoard Member Wilcox asked Mr. Walker if the Board should raise the issue that the final • PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 9 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 buildings might be too high according to the Town's Ordinance with the fill and placing the building on top of the fill. Director of Engineering responded no. That would go from the general lay of the land. The developer. filled the lot two feet, then the Town would raise the minimum building height for the house. These houses are at the maximum height for building codes. Board Member Ainslie asked Mr. Walker if the potential owners know the problems, such as Wegman's being built on a wetland with fill. Director of Engineering Walker stated that he mentioned it to the builder and they know this. The builders will be owning these houses because the buildings would be duplex rental units. If the property is under one ownership, the question of maintenance of the drainage system is their responsibility. The developer could sell these buildings because these buildings are on their individual lots. Traditionally, the Lucentes own the houses ten to 15 years before selling them. Board Member Ainslie stated that when this first started out people were coming to the Town saying they had water in their cellars. Even with putting in the extra ditches, these people were very concerned. is Director of Engineering Walker stated that the Town has an earth fill ordinance for the legal aspect of these ditches. This is a legal subdivision, so it does not require a fill permit, but the only fill work that is allowed on this property is something that was approved. The ditches that were dug to the south of this was not in the approved plan. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann asked Mr. Walker if the fill was put under the houses to raise them up was within the limits. Director of Engineering Walker stated that it was within the understanding of the subdivision approval that the developer was going to that. That type of fill placement was consistent because most of the material came from the road construction. Each building permit allows 600 cubic yards of materials, and these amounts were all factored in. Larry Fabbroni of 127 Warren Road stated that he is representing Steven and Rocco Lucente, and that he does not disagree with anything Mr. Walker presented. Mr. Fabbroni stated that whoever dug these ditches was misguided to begin with. When he was brought in, he pointed out to the developer that they could not put the run off to the south because it violates the first rule of run off. They would be diverting water to a different water shed, and would create problems. The plan that is being presented now would bring it back to the approval of what the Board approved for this subdivision. Mr. Fabbroni stated that photographs were taken of the house under construction now, •and the grades are at the elevations of 1080.2 where the pipes are coming out of the footer. The area that drains off to the northwest when it enters into the woods is at elevations of 1073. That is . PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 10 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 a seven -foot drop. The area to the north and west has a natural ponding effect which is adjacent to the sanctuary. It is not the kind of condition that everyone should be concerned about. What Mr. Walker has pointed out has happened on Salem Drive over the last 35 years. When they first started there, they put in 12 to 15 inch culverts. Now these ditches are full and the footers running to the ditch might be approximately six to 12 inches above the bottom of the ditch. When the ditch runs in full amounts, it would cause problems. This particular area in question is at the top of the divide, which is the highest piece of land in the whole local area. The Town water tank is adjacent to this subdivision. In 35 years, the Town is not going to have ditches that are going to be any more full than the day they were developed. Mr. Fabbroni stated that he ordered them to put the 12 -inch pipe in the ditch to fill it over. Last week when the weather was in the low 20's, he did not want the water mains to freeze. In essence the 12 inch pipe was installed behind three lots to remedy the exposed conditions. Mr. Fabbroni stated that when the properties went on the market for the Kendal of Ithaca, they did a market study with a number of realtors. They determined that if they got into a rental or sale condition these houses with (basements have been proven to sell a lot better in the Ithaca market. That is what the Lucentes have been persistent in doing. The developers are taking up all the footprint that the Town would allow under zoning. There is nothing cheap looking about these houses. To the most part, the water would go towards the north and the west. This would be an improvement out of what started to be a bad situation. • Director of Engineering Walker stated that to the east of Winston Court it generally drains behind Winston Court and spreads throughout. Depending on how much water is in the ditches it would pull one way or the other, especially in the Maplewood and Pinewood areas. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that she heard questions about the water that might drain from this development to the west, and asked how it would affect the Town parkland. Director of Engineering Walker stated that the Town parkland in this area is quite wet. Mr. Fabbroni stated that there is an existing four -inch pipe at the end of the storm. This would not impact anything that the Town did in the park because it is bridged over already in the wet areas for the trails. Director of Engineering Walker stated that topographic information from the earlier plans show a swale that flows into the ditch from the east. In Arrowwood, it was flat, and they put three or four feet deep ditches in that are 30 feet wide, and successfully drained the land. The land was acting like a sponge. The water comes out in a hurry and travels down. Some places on Warren Road get washed out. When people from Arrowwood came to the Town, they mentioned Warren Road has never been topped over. This year, the Town has topped over Warren Road three times. It would drain down through Warrenwood and behind Winthrop Drive, and travels into the Village of Cayuga Heights. The Town has a retention pond behind the DeWitt School, which the pond was rebuilt with •the full flows turned in. The State said BOCES was exempt for approval. There might be a possibility for building codes where BOCES should be exempt, but not for land use ordinances. • PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 11 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 Mr. Fabbroni stated that the culvert under Warren Road in front of BOCES acts as a retention area. They have been reconstructing that ditch for approximately six to eight months now. The Town and the County would block the top half of the culvert the way it was first designed, and BOCES would take it. Then someone would replace it again. Board Member Finch stated that there has been some construction done with problems at the Convenient Care Center. Director of Engineering Walker stated that construction has been causing tremendous problems. The people at Cornell University, who owns the property, are in the process of doing a drainage study, which they should have done before they had approval from the Village of Lansing. Mr. Walker stated that he mentioned this to the Village that they should talk to the Town about drainage before approving a project like this again. The Village is proposing to build some type of detention facility there to mitigate the loss of natural storage that the project has created. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that she thinks it is important that the Town does not allow anything to happen to make the situation worse. Particularly in this area where this development is going to be where people have already had a lot of problems already. It would be nice when a developer in this area is doing work to be assured that the developer would make the drainage situation better rather than making the way it was before. Director of Engineering Walker stated that he would be keeping tabs on them. The road was accepted by the Town Board for this project. The Town Board thought all the major drainage work was done, and all that needed to be done was to build the houses. The Town Board thought if there were any problems, that the building permit process would catch the problems, but there were a few holes in that process. If Bolton Point mentioned to the Town that these pipes were uncovered, it would have been dealt with sooner. The engineering staff did a UFPO to request marking water line, and when they marked the water line they put little blue flags over the Town's facilities. The developer must have thought that was the path to follow. Mr. Fabbroni was right when he stated that the design drainage would work fine for these houses, but the only concern is that it is significantly off the lots. There is a lot depending on what happens off site. The 1073 elevation is probably 600 feet away from lot number 12. That would require 300 or 400 feet of drainage pipe to get the water to work. The land owner needs to be aware of this and have the protection of easement to maintain the drainage system. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that she is concerned in regards to having basements built in that area. No matter what the studies have said, she is sure that the people who want basements do not want basements that are going to be wet and need to use sump pumps to keep it dry all the time. Mr. Fabbroni stated that he did not know that there was going to be any sump pumps in these • houses. His thoughts were that the sump pumps would be optional if the Town would not allow the ditches and pipes. • v PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 12 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 DECEMBER 3, 1996 Director of Engineering Walker stated that these houses are going to be gravity flowed, but the general problem is that drainage systems need regular maintenance. Most people do not know that regular maintenance needs to be done because of roots clogging the pipes. Mr. Walker stated that engineers could make recommendations, but that does not mean people would listen to them. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that to summarize what Mr. Walker and Mr. Fabbroni have mentioned tonight, that the Town would not need to worry about what happens on the individual lots with the individual houses because they should be all right in essence, and it would be the responsibility of the developer to make sure there were no drainage problems. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann asked if it is a Town problem. Director of Engineering Walker stated that it would need to comply with building codes. They could physically build this with today's technology to theoretically have dry basements. Every house in this area has a drainage system of some sort. The engineering staff is in the process of. deepening Brandywine because some people have had some drainage problem. There was a swale built in the late 1970's by the Town to dump the water from Brandywine behind the houses. Mr. Fabbroni stated that Brandywine use to flood back into every storm in the late 1970's until the Town built the retention pond in the back of DeWitt School. Director of Engineering Walker stated that when people apply for a building permit, that the staff tries to tell people about any wetland conditions. The staff has the right to ask for any topographic design information to include drainage designs. The staff could ask for full grading plans based on elevation limitations if there are any questions of any possible wetland area. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann asked Mr. Walker if he is satisfied with the improvements the developer is proposing. Director of Engineering Walker responded, yes, as long as they follow through with it and the Town uses the building permit process to go through with it. If they remove any other material, that the legal means to protect the Town would require a fill permit. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann duly closed the above - mentioned matter at 9:07 p.m. AGENDA ITEM: CONTINUATION OF DISCUSSION REGARDING DRAFT 1996 PARK AND OPEN SPACE PLAN, TOWN OF ITHACA (GEORGE FRANTZ, ASSISTANT TOWN PLANNER). Vice Chairperson Hoffmann duly opened the above - mentioned matter at 9:08 p.m. Assistant Town Planner George Frantz stated that the Park and Open Space Plan proposes OConservation District Zoning for the Sapsucker Woods area to avoid further drainage related problems such as the one just discussed. That area is one of a number in the Town of Ithaca where 0 PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 13 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 such zoning can be used not so much to protect sensitive environmental areas, but to channel development away from locations that are simply inappropriate for any high density development. He then introduced the presentation topic, section Chapter 5 of the draft Park, Recreation, and Open Space Plan that deals with the preservation of open space. The plan is to preserve the importance of ecological and agricultural resources of the Town. This document essentially builds on the recommendations that have come down to the Town through the Comprehensive Plan, the 1992 Planning for Agriculture report, the Conservation Advisory Council Open Space Inventory, and the Six Mile Creek report. In the new plan, the staff is proposing tools to protect open space and agricultural resources. The first tool is zoning for areas that would be recommended for conservation zoning, which is the type that has been enacted for Six Mile Creek Valley. A more effective tool to zone for agriculture would be to make agriculture the primary use of an area or have farm provisions that would protect farmers from nuisance suits from nearby ,home owners. There would be some reduction in the development density from the current R -30 zoning. Much of the agricultural zoning is in the outer portions of the Town. The next tool is for the future utilization of cluster subdivision. Cluster subdivisions, especially with Conservation District zoning, could be very effective in preserving major • expanses of open space. For land that is developed as residential lots, 80 percent of the land could be preserved as open space by having one house per every seven acres. In areas that are zoned R -30, where there is public water and sewer, development could be condensed into smaller lots to preserve open space. This would be important in areas where the Town is anticipating future development, so the housing could be pulled away from the edge. The third tool would be a program for the purchase of development rights. What the staff is envisioning with this program is to have the Town step in and purchase the development rights from land owners that are willing to sell them on a voluntary basis. There is the potential to acquire approximately 3,700 total acres in the Town. Purchasing the development rights in areas would keep development closer to the City keeping open space for everyone to enjoy. The primary benefit of an easement program of the type proposed is that the properties remain under the ownership, and stewardship, of private landowners. The property is assessed at market value rate subject to the restrictions on the conservation or agricultural easement. The land protected by the easement continues to be held privately. The fourth tool, is to use some of the existing owners and maintainers of open space in the Town of Ithaca as receptors for additional open space. The staff has already started doing this. For example, the Buttermilk Falls State Park where land was set aside from the Buttermilk Valley Estate Subdivision and is being transferred to the State. This is an example of a parcel of open space that is immediately adjacent to other fairly large parcels of land with large development potential. The staff could use the park and open space mechanism to take land and have it added to those existing areas for permanent open space that is not under ownership of the Town. The benefit from the standpoint of the Town would be to preserve open space in public or semi - public ownership without the Town taking on the liability or the maintenance responsibilities. In summary, this is the open space plan. • PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 14 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 0 Board Member Finch asked Mr. Frantz if there was a reason for not showing the private parks. Assistant Town Planner Frantz stated that the staff has not shown holdings of any private open space areas on the maps. One of the reasons the staff did not locate them on the maps was because it would be like an invitation for people use the private areas. They could be added to the maps along with the State Parks as semi - public parks. Some of the private holders do not want a lot of people to know there is public open space because of a lot of traffic flow. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that if the Town decided to do anything like that for public distribution, the Town would need to check with the owners first. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann asked if an overlay could be done to prevent trespassing to be used only for the Board's discussions. Attorney Barney asked why would the Town want to keep it from the public. Since these spaces are available to the public. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that she was referring to private land which was not opened for public use. Board Member Finch stated that the „private land holders receive tax advantages which they gain by doing this. Assistant Town Planner Frantz stated that it should be categorized as non public open space preserves. Director of Planning Kanter stated that one of things that was helpful while doing the study for the Six Mile Creek Conservation District, was to show lands with conservation easements. That gave everyone the whole picture of the open space area. This might help the Board make some decisions on subdivisions. The staff has a Town map with tax parcels and assessment information which allows staff to put together a lot of information. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that it would be a good idea for the Board to see that. Attorney Barney stated that what is being asked here is for the Town to acquire development rights for ownership for the lands. Attorney Barney asked if it would be fair to tell the Town Board that they need to acquire this to have open space without showing all the open space that the Town already has. Also, we must give the public an opportunity to comment on whether it is necessary to do this or not. Some people might make an argument that the Town does not need a lot of open space in one place because there is a lot of open space in other areas. Assistant Town Planner Frantz stated that the staff is not talking about privately held lands which people have donated for conservation easements to the land trust. The staff is talking about • APPROVED PLANNING BOARD MINUTES - DECEMBER 17, 1996 natural open spaces that are opened to the public. I. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that she does not have a problem with the privately held lands opened to the public, but the ones that are not opened to the public she has a problem with. Director of Planning Kanter stated that if the staff wanted to show conservation easements to the Board, it is public information which is filed in the County Clerk's office with the deeds. It is just that there is no one map showing where these lands are in the Town. There is the problem that people from the public might get the idea that they can go into these areas like they go to a State Park. This is not what the staff wants. Board Member Wilcox asked if they are obtaining some tax advantage from the Town, County, or State as a result of what they have done with their land and if that would be public information. This should be rightly shown on a map as open space. Director of Planning Kanter stated that was correct. The tax benefit that they receive from conservation easements would be on the Federal Income Tax. is Attorney Barney asked if they have changed the law for doing that. Assistant Town Planner Frantz stated that they do not intend to change the law because the land will still be assessed for market value. A parcel of land cannot be reduced because of having a conservation easement on it. The values would remain the same. Board Member Bell stated that it is fascinating to see how much environmentally interesting lands are in the Town of Ithaca. Not only just the quantity, but the variety. There are probably not many Towns anywhere that have this many different kinds of things constituting this percentage of land area. It is nice to see real planning being done by the Town. Board Member Wilcox stated that he would be handing in his comments on the chart entitled "Fig. 5 -2. Recommended Number of Town Active Recreational Facilities" on page 12 of Chapter 5. For example, if one swimming pool is needed for 20,000 people, the Town has 15,000 people at the present time, then a pool would be needed. Assistant Town Planner Frantz stated that Cass Park, Alex Haley, Buttermilk Falls State Park, and Treman Park all having swimming areas. Director of Planning Kanter stated that the next step would be to get feed back from the public to see what they want. 40 Assistant Town Planner Frantz stated that the staff is suggesting that the Town investigate • PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 16 DECEMBER 3, 1996 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 possible consolidation with the City and the Village of recreational facilities. Mr. Frantz passed out Chapter 6 of the Park and Open Space Plan which deals with the cost and how to pay for it, so the Board Members could review the materials at home for the next discussion meeting. Board Member Bell stated that on the West Hill side of the Town of Ithaca it looks great for open space, but across the street into the other Townships there are more mobile home parks and apartment houses. Mr. Bell asked if the Town of Enfield has any guidelines for zoning. Director of Planning Kanter stated that the Town of Enfield was in the process of thinking about a site plan review law, but he is not sure what is happening with that. Board Member Ainslie stated that he could answer Board Member Bell's question. In Ithaca, an average family income is approximately $38,000.00. None of these people who work in Ithaca can buy homes in the Town of Ithaca, so they either go to the Town of Enfield or they go to Odessa to parts that are farther away. It is economics that caused this. Board Member Bell stated that it is not just economic, there is also good planning that could be done for low income people to live in the Town. Bad planning also raises prices. Mr. Bell stated that he does mortgages for these types of people. He does think it is bad planning to allow single wides to string along the road. Mr. Bell believes that the Town of Ithaca should do things to make it possible to have very low income housing. Maybe this Board should talk about having streets with double wide mobile homes on them, not single wides. Board Member Ainslie stated that the economy needs to change. Assistant Town Planner Frantz stated that the Town could put in a nice development of single wides for $75,000.00 or less, but nobody is doing it. Board Member Wilcox stated that the Town of Ithaca Zoning Ordinance does not allow it. The Planning Board had a brief discussion on manufactured housing and double wide parks in the areas surrounding the Town of Ithaca. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann duly closed the above - mentioned matter at 9:54 p.m. AGENDA ITEM: APPROVAL OF MINUTES - NOVEMBER 19, 1996. The Minutes of November 19, 1996, of the Town of Ithaca Planning Board Meeting will be reviewed at the next meeting on December 17, 1996. • AGENDA ITEM: OTHER BUSINESS. f� PLANNING BOARD MINUTES 17 APPROVED - DECEMBER 17, 1996 DECEMBER 3, 1996 Director of Planning Kanter stated that in each Board Member's packet is a copy of the Ithaca College Sketch Plans for the December 17, 1996 meeting. He thought the Board would like to review the plans in advance before the next Planning Board meeting, and he would try to set up a site visit to Ithaca College. Mr. Kanter also stated that there was a flyer handed out to each member for a conference in February 1997, put on by the Associations of the Town's. Mr. Kanter asked if anyone was interested in attending this conference. Vice Chairperson Hoffmann stated that she would be interested in attending if no one else on the Board wanted to go. She encouraged anyone who has not gone to this conference, to do so. Board Member Wilcox stated that there should be a review committee setup to interview candidates for the Planning Board due to terms running out at the end of the year. Mr. Wilcox volunteered to be on the committee. The Planning Board had a brief discussion on how the committee will work. The Town Board will be discussing the formation of a committee at the next Town Board meeting. Board Member Wilcox stated that he has been doing some research on clear cutting forestry in the Town of Ithaca. He would be reviewing materials to get a handle on what the Town should be doing about clear cutting. The Planning Board had a brief discussion on clear cutting in the Town of Ithaca. Board Member Ainslie stated that he would not be attending the December 17, 1996 and the first meeting in January 1997, due to knee surgery he will be having this month. AGENDA ITEM: ADJOURNMENT. Upon MOTION, Vice Chairperson Hoffmann declared the December 3, 1996, Meeting of the Town of Ithaca Planning Board duly adjourned at 10:07 p.m.. Respectfully submitted, Deborah A. Kelley, Keyboard Specialist/ Wutes Recorder Ma ryan Administra a n Secreta , • Town of Ithaca Planning Board.