HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB Minutes 1986-11-04 ��LED
'iOW1i Of ITRACA
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1 TOWN OF ITHACA _ PLANK ING . BOARD
126 East Seneca Street
2 Ithaca , New York
3 TUESDAY .L _ NOVEBER _ 4 .t _ 1986
4 A G E N D A
� ( 5 7 _ 30 _ P M a
Routing _ Buslngss
n%. s —
Approval of Minutes - - June 17 , 1986
6 Report of the Assistant. Town Engineer ,
Robert R . Flumerfelt , P . E .
T 7/ Report of the Town Building
Inspector / Zoning Enforcement Officer ,
8 Andrew Frost
Report of the Planning Board , Carolyn
9 Grigorov
10 7 _ 45 _ P1M.. PUHLIC_ HEARING : Consideration of Preliminary
and Final Subdivision Approval for the
11 proposed subdivision of a 1 . 3 ± acre lot from
a 3 . 34 acre parcel , at 1478 Mecklenburg Road ,
12 Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel
No . 6 - 27 - 1 - 24 . 1 . George Rhoads , Owner ;
13 Robert McGuire , Applicant ,
14 7 _ 55 - 1': M1 PUBLIC_ HEARING : Consideration of Site Plan
Approval for Eastwood Commons Phase III , 70
15 units and pavilion , proposed to be located
near Honness Lane on Harwick Road and Sunny
16 Slope Lane , Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel
No . 6 - 60 - 1 - 25 . 42 , Multiple Residence
17 District , Eastwood Commons Development
Corporation , Owner / Developers Norbert H .
18 Schickel Jr . , President .
Consideration of Recommendation to the
19 Town Board concerning Site Plan Approval for
Lot 33 at Eastwood Commons
20
9000 - PJLL4 .L ADJOURNMENT
21 Susan C . Beeners
Town Planner
22 NOTE : IF ANY MEMBER OF THE PLANNING BOARD IS UNABLE TO
ATTEND , PLEASE NOTIFY THE PLANNING BOARD SECRETARY ,
23 NANCY FULLER , IMMEDIATELY AT 273 - 1747 .
24 A _ OUQB .QL4_ S5Z _ IS _ NECESSARY_ TO _ CONDUCT _ A . PUBLIC _
HEARING .
Town of Ithaca. Planning Board 2
1 'The Town of Ithaca Planning Board met in regular
2 session on Tuesday , November 4 , 1986 , in Town Hall ,
3 126 East Seneca Street , Ithaca , New York at 7 : 30 P . M .
` 4 PRESENT . Chairman Montgomery May , Carolyn Grigorov ,
d 5 David Klein , James Baker , Robert Kenerson ,
6 John C . Barney , Esq . , ( Town Attorney ) ,
7 Susan C . Beeners ( Town Planner ) , Robert R .
8 Flumerfelt ( Assistant Town Engineer ) ,
9 Lori A . Walker ( Shorthand Reporter ) .
10 ALSO PRESENT : Andrew Frost ( Town Building Inspector / Zoning
11 Officer ) , Bob McGuire , Norbert H .
12 Schickel , Jr . , R . B . Allan , R . H . Comstock ,
13 Harrison Rue , Anton Egner , Helen Wardeburg ,
14 Joan Egner , Pam Clermont , Margaret L .
15 Hartman , Paul L . Hartman , J . Gormly Miller ,
16 Mildred B . Miller , James R . Orcutt , Minnie
17 Orcutt , Jim Rider , Louise Rider , Robert
18 Ellsworth , Herbert Deinert , Christine
19 Stratakos .
20 CHAIRMAN MAY * Let ' s start out with routine
21 business and approval of the minutes of June 17 , 1986s
22 MR . Y. ENERSON : I wasn ' t here , but I didn ' t find
23 any errors . I would move that the minutes of June 17th be
24 approved .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 3
1 CHAIRMAN MAY : Do we have a second ?
2 MR . BAKER : Second .
3 CHAIRMAN MAY : A1. 1 those in favor say aye .
, 1
4 ( All say aye )
5 CHAIRMAN MAY : Opposed or abstention ?
6 ( No response )
7 None . So moved .
8 Assistant Town Engineer , tell us what ' s going
9 on .
10 MR . FLUMERFELT : I don ' t have a formal report .
11 I might mention a few things that would be of general
12 interest . Forest Home Drive is "scheduled for its formal
13 opening after many , many months of construction on November
14 10th , this Monday . It has received a temporary surfacing
15 due to the long extended weather that we ' ve had which is
16 delaying the surface and final hot asphalt until spring . PJe
17 have a double treatment surface on , and the road is ready
18 to be opened . That includes the short section where we had
19 a wash out problem just east of the McIntyre Place ,
20 As soon as that ' s open , we plan to take traffic
21 counts for as long as we can before an experimental one - way
22 traffic pattern on Judd Falls Road which is slated to be
23 started on December 1st .
• 24 So that we have a comparison as to how traffic
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 4
1 would move during the time that Forest Home Drive is open
2 before that one - way pattern goes into effect .
3 One other project that I have been involved with
4 for quite an extent the last few weeks is the Hospital
5 access road . The design is nearing completion on that and
1
6 steps have been taken to acquire some right of way
7 necessary for the road coordination . It has been
8 discussed with Hospital people as far as the design and
9 will be with the County people as far as their end of the
10 road . So that is nearing steps where we ' ll have a complete
11 design for that .
12 Also tied in with that , the State ' s
13 consideration of traffic signals at the intersection of
14 Route 96 and the Hospital entrance road . So , those are the
15 major projects which I am involved with lately .
16 I ' m here to aid in whatever way I can with
17 engineering questions . Of course , there ' s been many other
18 smaller jobs which we have been involved in , but I think
19 those are the major ones .
20 CHAIRMAN MAY : Very good . Does anybody have any
21 questions for Bob ? Any areas here to talk about ? Thank
22 you very much .
23 Andy ?
24 MR . FROST : You have your monthly building
I
I
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 5
1 report in front of you . Somewhat active month compared to
2 October of ' 85 in terms of total construction cost .
3 The chart here for ' 85 should show that a
eat 4 significant amount of value of construction . There was
5 some Cornell University and college construction outside of
it
6 that . Compared to a - year ago , things are fairly equal on
7 activity .
8 CHAIRMAN MAYO Thank you . Does anybody have any
9 questions ?
10 MS . GRIGOROV : It ' s nice when you give a note
11 about it , what it was .
12 MR . FROST : Particularly in the past months , I
13 haven ' t shown last year ' s larger projects , but I think it. ' s
14 worth it because it does reflect in value of cost of the 8
15 million dollar project with the college .
16 CHAIRMAN MAY : Thank you .
17 Carol ?
18 745 . GRIGOROV : I gave my report last time .
19 There hasn ' t been a meeting since then .
20 CEIAIRNIAN MAY : Okay , that ' s fine .
21 Susan ?
O
22 MS . BEENERS : Well , as I guess we expected , it ' s
23 time for the pre - Christmas rush before the ground freezes .
24 So , the pace of projects and applications has not
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 6
1 significantly slowed down at all . Basically , what I have
2 been doing is applicant - related processing so I
3 am looking forward to such time as the CLEARS ' map is
4 ready „ It will come together and we ' ll be able to get into
5 some comprehensive planning in January . I basically have
6 to catch up with what the last stage was .
7 CHAIRMAN MAY : When do you see the CLEARS ' map ?
8 MS . BEENERS : That should be in by the end of
9 this month ? The workload is just the thing that is a
10 problem right now , and seeing that we recuperate from
11 certain turnover areas . I am expecting there will be
12 progress made on certain vacancies filled , including
13 assistant secretary . So , whatever you guys do in regard to
14 pass it along , the hiring , I ' d appreciate it .
15 CHAIRMAN MAY : Anyone have any other questions
16 of Susan or comments ? If there ' s nothing , we ' re right on
t 17 schedule . Thank you , Susan .
18 Let ' s open our 7 : 45 Public Hearing for
19 Consideration of Preliminary and Final Subdivision Approval
20 for the proposed subdivision of a 1 . 3 - acre lot from a
21 3 . 34 - acre parcel , at 1478 Mecklenburg Road , . Town of Ithaca
� 22 Tax Parcel No . 6 - 27 - 1 - 24 - 1 . George Rhoads , Owners
23 Robert McGuire , Applicant ,
24 Who ' s telling us about it ?
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 7
1 MR . MCGUIRE : I am Bob McGuire and very briefly ,
2 I am proposing to buy from Mr . Rhoads a 1 . 3 - acre parcel .
3 And in order to do that , it ' s not currently designated as a
4 parcel , I need approval from the Board to subdivide those
5 parts „
s
6 You have in the packet in front of you , a map of
7 Mr . Rhoads ' property with indication of the portion that I
8 propose to purchase from him . And we ' re asking the Board
9 to permit that subdivision to create a lot that I can
10 negotiate with him .
11 MS . BEENERS : I pulled out the tax map , too , so
12 that the Board can see just what parcel it is that we ' re
13 talking about . What Mr . McGuire is talking about is this
14 one ( indicating ) .
15 MR . MCGUIRE : It ' s currently an agriculture
16 zone . The use of that particular portion of the parcel is
t 17 plowed field right now . There is no significant
18 landscaping or dwellings on that portion .
19 CHAIRMAN t•IAY : You ' re looking at 200 feet by 300
20 feet or 299 ?
21 MR . MCGUIRE : That ' s correct .
22 MR . KENERSON : The last one towards Ithaca from
23 the old Bennett house , right ?
24 MR . MCGUIRE : I can ' t tell you .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 8
1 MR . KENERSON : Old chicken barn ?
2 MR . MCGUIRE : Cinder block building up there ,
3 yes .
4 CHAIRMAN MAY : Thank you . It is a Public
5 Hearing . Are there any comments or any questions from
6 anyone relative to this proposal ?
7 MS . RIDER : What does he intend to do with the
8 land ?
9 MR . MCGUIRE : I ' d like to purchase . the land from
10 Mr . Rhoads and the prospect now is to erect a residence and
11 attach an artist studio .
12 MS . RIDER : You mean a private home ?
13 MR . MCGUIRE : With an attached artist studio .
14 MS . RIDER : Yeah , okay .
15 CHAIRMAN VIAY : Any other comments or questions ?
16 If not , we ' ll close the Public Hearing and come back to the
17 Board . Any questions to Mr . McGuire ?
18 MR . BARNEY : I have a couple , if I could .
19 Mr . McGuire , a building on Mr . Rhoads ' remaining piece , how
20 are they occupied presently ?
21 MR . MCGUIRE : I ' m not sure of that . I ' m not the
22 one that should speak to that .
23 MR . BARNEY: I ' d just like to get the
24 information .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 9
1 MR . MCGUIRE : To the best of my knowledge , he
2 resides in one , in the house , and the cinder block
3 building , he ' s using as his artist studio . I indicated one
4 from another here . The residence on your map is the
5 building to the right . And the cinder block building is
i
6 the other large structure .
7 MR . BARNEY : On the left ?
8 MR . MCGUIRE : On the left .
9 MR . BARNEY : Have you been inside the artist
10 studio ?
11 MR . MCGUIRE : Mm - mm .
12 MR . BARNEY : ' What kind of facilities are in
13 there ?
14 MR . MCGUIRE : What do you mean ?
15 MR . BARNEY : For instance , kitchen facilities ?
16 MR , MCGUIRE : Not that I know of .
t 17 MR . BARNEY : Bathroom , I assume ?
18 MR . MCGUIRE : Yeah . I think there ' s a bathroom
19 in there from when the building was used before for
20 whatever chicken operation that was in there .
21 MR . BARNEY : Behind that building is a square
22 building . Do you know what that is ?
23 MR . MCGUIRE : That ' s a shed . It ' s open on one
24 side .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 10
1 MR . BARNEY. : what ' s the other sort of building
2 that ' s below the little things there ?
3 MR . MCGUIRE : That ' s another shed .
4 MR . BARNEY : . For the purposes of looking at this
5 whole parcel , it would all basically be a single - family
s
6 residence ?
7 MR . MCGUIRE : Mm - mm ,
8 MR . BARNEY : One family resides and is using the
9 home facility including - -
10 MR . MCGUIRE : Mm - mm .
11 NIS . BEENERS : As far as remaining frontage on
12 the land , there is 500 feet or so on Sheffield Road .
13 CHAIRMAN MAY : Any other questions , John ?
14 MR . BARNEY : No .
15 CHAIRMAN MAY : Well , our first action should be
16 to look at the Short Environmental Assessment Form . We
17 have a short form filled out . we have a recommendation of
18 a negative declaration conditional upon the submission of a
19 map in a format suitable for filing . Does anybody have any
20 comments on that ? If not , does anybody care to make a
21 motion ?
22 MS . GRIGOROV : I ' ll move the draft resolution .
23 CElAIRNIAP] MAY : You want to read the resolution ?
24 ( Draft resolution read )
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 11
1 CHAIRMAN MAY . Do we have a second ?
2 MR . BAKER : Second .
3 CHAIRMAN MAY . All those in favor say aye .
4 ( All say aye )
5 CHAIRMAN MAY : Opposed or abstention .
6 ( No response )
7 So moved .
8 The Planning Board is acting as Lead Agency and
9 makes a negative declaration .
10 WHEREAS ,
11 1 . This action is the subdivision of a 1 . 3 ± acre
12 lot from a 3 . 34 - acre parcel , located at 1478 Mecklenburg
13 Road , Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No . 6 - 27 - 1 - 24 . 1 .
14 2 . This is an Unlisted action for which the
15 Planning Board has been legislatively determined to act as
16 Lead Agency , and for which a Short Environmental Assessment
z 17 Form has been completed and reviewed at a Public Hearing on
18 November 4 , 1986 .
19 3 . A recommendation of a negative determination has
20 been made by the Town Planner , conditional upon the
21 submission of a map in a format suitable for filing , for
22 approval by the Town Engineer ,
23 THEREFORE , IT IS RESOLVED :
24 1 . That the Planning Board shall act and hereby
I
Q
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 12
1 does act as the Lead Agency for the Environmental Review of
2 this action .
3 2 . That this project is determined to have no
4 significant impact on the environment and a negative
5 declaration of environmental significance shall be and
6 hereby is made , conditional upon the submission of a map in
7 a format suitable for filing , for approval by the Town
8 EnginE! er .
9 CHAIRMAN MAY : Now , we have a draft resolution
10 before us as far as the subdivision . Does anybody have any
11 comments ? If not , would anybody like to make a motion ?
12 MR . KLEIN : I move the draft resolution .
13 CHAIRMAN MAY : Read the resolved .
14 ( Draft resolution read )
15 CHAIRMAN MAY : Is there a second ?
16 MR . BAKER : Second .
t 17 CHAIRMAN MAY : Ise have a second . All those in
18 favor say - -
19 MR . BARNEY * Could we just add that in reference
20 to the map afterwards , submission of a map prepared by a
21 licensed surveyor showing, the proposed subdivision ?
22 MR . KLEIN I will accept that .
23 CHAIRMAN MAY : All those in favor say aye .
24 ( All say aye )
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 13
1 CHAIRMAAJ MAY : Opposed or, abstention .
2 ( No response )
3 CHAIR [9AN MAY : You got it .
4 WHEREAS :
5 1 . This action is the subdivision of a 1 . 3 ± acre
6 lot from a 3 . 34 - acre parcel , located at 1478 Mecklenburg
7 Road , Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No . 6 - 27 - 1 - 24 . 1 .
8 2 . The Planning Board at a Public Hearing on
9 November 4 , 1986 , has reviewed the Short Environmental
10 Assessment Form for this proposed subdivision and has made
11 a determination of negative environmental significance ,
12 conditional upon the submission of a map in a format
13 suitable for filing , for approval by the Town Engineer .
14 3 . The Planning Board at a Public Hearing on
15 November 4 , 1986 , has reviewed a map entitled " Portion of
16 Lands of Carl R . and Edna M . Updike " , undated , on which has
17 been sketched the proposed lot to be subdivided , and two
18 sketches showing the ' location of the proposed
19 residence - studio to be built on the property .
20 THEREFORE , IT I5 RESOLVED
21 1 . That the Planning Board waive and hereby does
22 waive certain requirements for Preliminary and Final
23 Subdivision Approval , having determined from the materials
24 presented that such waiver will result in neither a
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 14
1 significant alteration of the purpose of subdivision
2 control nor the policies enunciated or implied by the Town
3 Board.
4 2 . That the Planning Board grant and hereby does
r
5 grant Preliminary and Final Subdivision Approval to this
ii
G subdivision , as presented on the material described above ,
7 conditional upon the submission of a map prepared by a
8 licensed surveyor showing the proposed subdivision in a
9 format: suitable for filing , for approval by the Town
10 Engineer ,
11 CHAIRh1AN MAY : What is the story here , Susan ?
12 Mr . Schickel has asked that we look into an additional
13 building lot prior . to opening our Public Hearing .
14 MS . BEENEP. S : Yes . The story I guess may
15 require some explanation . One of the conditions that I am
16 reporting is that in the 1973 resolution for Eastwood
17 Commons , there were certain conditions which have actually
18 been superseded by , well , the delegation of Site Plan
19 Approval to the Planning Board in most cases and some other
20 items . What I ' m proposing is that we go with the lot 33 ,
21 and it ' s presently clear in the draft resolution that. I
22 have lot 33 and to make a recommendation to the Town Board
23 with the expectation , if you were so inclined to make that
24 recommendation , that Mr . Schickel would return to our next
TownNof Ithaca Planning Board 15
1 Planning Board meeting for Final Subdivision Approval of
2 lot 33 .
3 It ' s your prerogative as to whether you go with
4 it at this point or after the Phase III hearing .
5 CHAIRMAN MAY : This , of course , has not been
6 published at all ?
7 MS . BEENERS : No . It is just conditional ► a
8 general item which will be treated as sketch plan review
9 with recommendation to the Town Board ,
10 CHAIR [+9AN MAY : Okay . What ' s the pleasure of the
11 Board ? Do you want to look at this now or would you like
12 to defer this and go into our Public Hearing on Phase III
13 and then come back and talk about this afterwards ? What
14 would be your pleasure ?
15 MR . KLEIN : I ' d like to look at. Phase III , I
16 don ' t know how many people ' on this Board served when this
17 project first came up , 1973 . As I look at lot 33 , it
18 doesn ' t mean anything to me . I mean , in terms of the
19 overall . I for one would like to have a little background .
20 What ' s happening in III - - ten _years were phased .
21 CHAIRMAN MAY : Does the rest of the Board concur
22 with that ?
23 ( All say yes )
24 CHAIRMAN MAY : Let ' s go into the Public Hearing
r `
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 16
1 for Phase III and certainly talk about that afterwards .
2 So , let me open the Public Hearing for the
3 Consideration of Site Plan Approval for Eastwood Commons ,
4 Phase III , 70 units and pavilion , proposed to be located
5 near Honness Lane on Harwick Road and Sunny Slope Lane ,
6 Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No . 6 - 60 - 1 - 25 . 421 Multiple
7 Residence District . Eastwood Commons Development
8 Corporation , Owner / Developer ; Norbert H . Schickel Jr . ,
9 President ,
10 Talk to us .
11 NR . SCHICKEL : The original development was
12 approved in 1973 for 176 units . And over the years , we
13 built the first phase and that was some 40 units and then
14 we built Phase II , the villas on the upper side .
15 Basically , the project was approved subject to site plan
16 approval and we approved it , I mean had it approved phase
17 by phase . Basically we built it related to the site
18 utilities . In other words , the site utilities presently
19 dictated much of the phasing and then those site utilities
20 were approved by the Health Department and then whatever
21 other approval was required . Now , the building you are
22 referring to , previously building 33 , the other building is
23 on the cluster that is by Building Number 1 and I think if
24 I just show you this , this is the original .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 17
1 CHAIRMAN MAYO Do you want to put it up there ?
2 Maybe it would be easier and everyone could see it .
3 MR . SCHICKEL : That was Building Number 1 and
" 4 Building Number 33 will be in that location ' or rented like
5 that . It will be a somewhat - - over the years , there ' s
6 been some evolution in the building , - but it will be
7 basically in that location with a common driveway with
8 Building 1 and with it on the utilities for this phase .
9 Then Phase II - - this was Phase I ( indicating ) .
10 This is Phase II ( indicating ) . Then Phase III will be down
11 here ( indicating ) .
12 The thing that is dictating the phasing is that
13 once we build that building , we will build all the
14 buildings that we can build without going back down and
15 starting down here because the sewer runs in such a way
16 that well , in other words , we can ' t build here because the
17 sewer has to run this way . So , we ' d be coming up this way .
18 ( Indicating the South end of Sunny Slope Lane )
19 So , we have come up now with* a plan for
20 Phase III . Basically , road patterns remain exactly the
21 same , the utilities are essentially the same and the number
22 of units are approximately the same .
23 Where this building is , we are proposing a
24 pavilion building to make a common place for a meeting and
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 18
1 for recreation , for maintenance and the kinds of things
2 that we need in a development like this . I guess maybe we
3 ought to look incidentally .
4 Harrison Rue is in charge of construction for
5 use
a
• 6 MS . STRATAKOS : Is there any way we can use road
7 names there ?
8 MR . SCHICKEL : This is Wildflower coming right
9 in here . This is Strawberry Hill Road . This is Harwick
10 Road coming in here . This is Sunny Slope Lane , Sunny Slope
11 section . I think you can see this is Harwick Road , which
12 is the same road that was here and then it comes down like
. 13 this and comes down like this . And when you drive in ,
14 there will be the common building right here . And then
15 we ' re proposing a town house type of unit . There is some
16 variety listed on the bottom .
17 Here are the various - - in other words ,
18 different sizes and different square footages . They range
19 from 1 , 344 to the largest is 2 , 310 . Basically , you come in
20 on the ground level and there will be the living room ,
21 dining room , kitchen and two bedrooms and a bath upstairs .
22 In some cases , they might have a study on the lower level .
23 There would be a recreation room or whatever you want to
24 use it for .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 19
1 One thing that is going to be different is that
2 whereas our present units , the garages are right in the
3 building and there ' s a unit above the garages here where
4 there is a garage and in a number of cases , there is a
5 garage . The garage is separate and you drive into the
6 garage and you go to the garage into a little planted area
7 and then into your front door .
8 CHAIRMAN MAY : I think maybe , if I could , look
9 at the elevation .
10 MR . SCHICKEL : This would be the basic elevation
11 after you come out of your garage . This is referred to as
12 a classic town house . In other words , it ' s a building
13 that ' s. wide . It runs straight through and then comes out
14 at the other side . In • the event that it has ground
15 breaking away , then it has a lower level which comes out on
16 the ground and the ground level comes out with a deck .
17 So that would be the basic elevation . And then
18 you can see it graphs even better in this diagram where
19 here , the garage you ' re driving in and here you come to the
20 open area . You come into the unit and then you come out on
21 the deck here or you come down below and you come out at
22 the ground level . This is a section through it so you can
23 see .
24 Now , in some cases , these all have garages .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 20
1 These do not have garages here . These have garages , these
2 do noir, have garages .
3 CHAIRMAN MAY . Show us a garage . I didn ' t see .
4 NIR . SCHICKEL : The garage is this little
5 building in front . So there ' s a little variety in the
s
6 options as to what is included . There ' s an option that
7 some of the units break out at the lower level and some
8 don ' t .
9 They all have basements , but some of those
10 basements break out at the lower level . I guess that gives
11 you a fairly good idea of how it works . Is that adequate ?
12 CHAIRMAN MAY : We ' ll see how the questions go
13 here . How many units ?
14 MR . SCHICKEL : 70 units .
15 CHAIRMAN MAY : How many garages ?
16 MR . SCHICKEL : Let me figure .
Ir 17 MS . BEENERS : 47 .
18 MR . RUE : It ' s on the long environmental form .
19 MR . SCHICKEL : Do you have that handy ?
20 MS . BEENERS : I have 47 .
21 MR . SCHICKEL : I think it ' s 47 . These do not
22 have garages . That ' s dictated to some degree by the
23 opportunity of the site . In other words , we ' ve designed
24 this so that they have a nice view and it takes advantage
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 21
1 of the site . In other words , on this side , it ' s not best
2 to have garages because they are blocking you .
3 MS . HARTMAN # Where would you put cars if you
4 had a car ? •
5 CHAIRMAN MAY : . It is a Public Hearing , so , let
i
6 us open a Public Hearing for comment now .
7 MS . STRATAKOS : I live on the corner of Honness
8 Lane and Wildflower . I honestly didn ' t know anything about
9 this until I got the notice a couple days ago . I have a
10 couple questions . One , Harwick Road or whatever the name
11 of that road is , is that the driveway type thing that ' s
12 covered over with grass and stuff now on the other side of
13 me on Wildflower ?
14 MR . SCHICKEL : This is where Archibald lives .
15 MS . STRATAKOS : I don ' t know any of the people .
16 MR , SCHICKEL : It ' s not opened as a road yet .
17 It will be open .
18 MS . STRATAKOS : I have a major concern about
• 19 trucks . With * the construction across the street from me on
20 Honness Lane , I have two little kids . I ' ve had lots of
21 problems and dangerous situations with the construction
22 that ' s taking place on the other side . And I am
23 envisioning additional huge numbers of trucks coming down
24 my street . And from Pine Tree down Honness Lane , to get to
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 22
1 this would have to go past my house to turn up Wildflower
2 and would have to go past my house and driveway . If trucks
3 were to come up from 79 and turn onto Harwick , I would
4 probably have less of a problem . I don ' t know if there ' s
5 any kind of restriction permitted since Harwick Road is not
6 yet a road . There ' s got to be some truck traffic for
7 sometime before that ' s finished and becom.es an alternative .
8 I would somehow like to get some protection if
9 it ' s a matter of the hours that the trucks go by or - - the
10 noises are horrendous right now . It ' s really dangerous for
11 my �children . I am concerned about this .
1 -2 MR . SCHICKEL : They are largely not our trucks .
13 MS . STRATAKOS : They don ' t turn down Wildflower
14 with this kind of construction going on .
15 MR . HARTMAN * Paul Hartman , I live on Pine Tree
16 Road . I am not presently concerned with this development .
17 Looking at it , it looks like it ' s quite a change from the
18 type of layout they ' ve had before . This row of houses
19 reminds me of Gommonland which is a lot of landscaping . I
20 am a little bit concerned about that for environmental
21 reasons , if nothing else .
22 I have one other small suggestion , change the
23 name of the road , Sunny Slope , there ' s going to be all
24 kinds of confusion .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 23
1 MR . SCHICKEL : This has been named Sunny Slope
2 for 13 years .
3 CHAIRMAN MAY . It ' s been on there , but you check
4 with ;.tack Miller because of this other Sunny Slope in the
5 County . Have you ever done that ? You know , we don ' t want
6 two roads with the same name .
7 MR . SCHICKEL : I don ' t think there is another
8 Sunny Slope Lane ,
9 CHAIRMAN MAY : But there is another Sunny Slope .
10 Maybe not lane , youu know , that ' s a definite concern for
11 fire protection and emergency equipment . And I remember
12 that was mentioned at the - -
13 MR . SCHICKEL : I do remember that . You were the
14 one guy that - -
15 MR . MILLER : My name is Gormly Miller . I live
16 at 7 - A Wildflower Drive in the development and it seems to
17 me this increases the density very substantially in terms
18 of the scheme as it was originally proposed and which we
19 originally bought into it . And I think that this notion of
20 these rows of buildings is going to substantially change
21 the character of the neighborhood . And I object to it and
22 I think that , I haven ' t counted them up , if: Norbert says
23 70 , there is a lot more shown on the original map .
24 MR . SCHICKEL : No , the same number . Same
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 24
1 number , a lot less overall , but in here - the same number .
2 MR . MILLER : Oh ?
3 MR . SCHICKEL : Yes .
4 MR . MILLER : How many units ?
5 MR . SCHICKEL : You can count them up .
6 CHAIRMAN MAY : Each of these buildings
7 originally was four units ?
8 MR . SCHICKEL : Right .
9 MR . MILLER : So , I guess , however , it does look
10 to me like the amount of coverage of land is substantially
11 greater in this proposed scheme than it was originally and
12 that ' s one thing I think we would want to look at . The
13 garage is , so it certainly would make a difference .
14 MR . SCHICKEL : The garages were underhea+ one of
15 the units and now they ' re separated , part of the building .
16 MR . MILLER : One other thing I ' d like to mention
17 is , I am not sure about how this may occur , but it does
18 strike me , this substantially changes the character of the
19 development by substituting what may or may not be a more
20 dense arrangement , presumably smaller units . That ' s simply
21 the impression I have and I don ' t have anything to
22 substantiate it . I don ' t , however , in respect to the
23 configuration related in number seven , which I have some
24 personal involvement , is that there ' s a lot less distance
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 25
1 between the back of the 7 building , ' 7 on Wildflower Drive
2 and new construction . This is a lot less , whereas there
3 was a lot more area on the original property plan .
r
4 Also , and I ' m not sure about this . Of course ,
5 when we originally looked at it , the sight lines from the
6 second floor to the building below were clearly over the
7 building . I ' m just wondering how much that building right
8 in back of number seven would , for example , block what is
9 now a very attractive view .
10 MR . SCHICKEL : Well , to the extent that right
11 now it ' s an open field , it ' s going to change it . But
12 basically , the elevations are not going to be significantly
13 different from the elevation here . The buildings are about
14 the same height and they ' • re about the same location and
15 they start with about the same elevation . And , of course ,
16 there is a large green , right in here , which will still be
17 there .
18 MR . MILLER : Won ' t it be less ?
19 MR . SCHICKEL : It may be a little tighter right
20 in there than it was shown there .
21 MR . MILLER : I think that ' s true .
22 MS . EGNER : Joan Egner , I live on 8 - B Wildflower
23 Drive . Two questions . One concerns the parking . There
24 are a number of units without garages . Where will the
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 26
1 parking lots be to accommodate those cars ?
2 MR . SCHICKEL : Right there (indicating ) .
3 MS . EGNER : How many will be placed in each of
4 the parking lots ?
5 MR , SCHICKEL : The overall parking rate is
6 between these and these . The overall parking rate is
7 almost: two to one .
8 MS . EGNER : I understand that . How large will
9 the parking lots be , that is , how many cars do you plan to
10 park in those parking lots ? I am not sure that I - -
11 MR . SCHICKEL : Well , there are going to be 70
12 units . There are 133 parking spaces . I don ' t know whether
13 that answers your questions , does it ?
14 MS . EGNER : Well , are they going to be stretched
15 out all together or are they going to be 10 to 127
16 CHAIRMAN MAY . Can you see this plan to see
17 where the parking is ?
18 MR . SCHICKEL : Right in front of the building .
19 MS . EGNER : In front of the building ?
20 MR . SCHICKEL : They will be parking in front of
21 the building here . These are garages and additional
22 parking opposite . It comes off the road , there is a ranch
23 right here and then parking places along in here and then
24 there is an exit here .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 27
1 MS . EGNER : So , that cuts further down on the
2 green space . My second question is what is the distance
3 between seven and the building that ' s just below it . [What
4 is the distance in feet ?
5 MR . SCHICKEL : I don ' t have that dimension
6 but - -
7 MS . EGNER : Can ' t you read it from the map ?
8 MR . SCHICKEL : No . I can ' t read it from the
9 map , but I mean it ' s a significant distance , but it ' s not
• 10 an enormous difference .
11 MS . EGNER : I think that ' s an important
12 consideration how much it ' s backing up to the existing
13 building .
14 MR . SCHICKEL : Yes . I mean , it ' s related to the
15 distance in the whole place , between buildings .
16 MS . STRATAKOS : Is there going to be any
17 designated pattern . When do you - -
18 MR . SCHICKEL : The development is designed , as
• 19 always ,, being a point of importance to us , that it doesn ' t
20 go anywhere . I mean , the only people that are inclined to
21 come in here are people that are destined for the
22 development so that it is a passageway to someplace else
23 which , you know , you have in cases - -
24 MS . STRATAKOS : I haven ' t had a problem with
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 28
1 traffic . I see another additional 70 . When did you say
2 Parkview Road will be done ?
3 MR . SCHICKEL : Yes . That will done fairly early
4 on .
5 CHAIRMAN MAY : Yes , ma ' am ?
6 MS . CLERMONT : My name is Pam Clermont . And my
7 perspE! ctive is specificially different . Ply husband owns
8 the property right to the southwest . There ' s about five
9 and a half acres below this development . There ' s new
10 opened land that we plan , at some point , to build a fairly
11 nice one - family house on and that ' s where we plan to live .
12 I guess a couple of my questions have to do with
13 distances . I am curious as to what the distance between my
14 boundary and the back of the building is .
15 MR . SCHICKEL : The minimum distance is 30 feet
16 from the building ; that is , from the deck to the property
17 line , but here , it ' s a lot more - - in other words , anywhere
18 along here , it ' s 30 feet from the property line .
. 19 MS . CLERMONT * What ' s the time frame for
20 building these units ?
21 MR . SCHICKEL : Well , it will be based on sales
22 and basically , we ' ll be building down in this area first
23 just as we have built along here . We build as sales take
24 place but , you know , it could be a number of years before
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 29
1 we get: up in here .
2 MS . CLERMONT : [where is the common building
3 here ?
4 MR . SCHICKEL : Right here ( indicating ) .
5 MS . CLERMONT * Is the selling price of the new
6 units going to be approximately what you ' ve got now ?
7 MR . SCHICKEL : Original units are selling in the
8 neighborhood of 75 , '000 . These units have sold for 110 , 000
9 to 150 , 000 and up , and these will be selling in the
10 neighborhood of 120 , OOO . and up . Maybe even a little lower .
11 Possibly 110 , 000 .
12 MS . CLERMONT : I guess my final concern is
13 something that we ' ve had a problem with and that is the
14 sewer system that will be incorporated into this . We ' ve
15 had some complication with that whole thing and my
16 understanding , about a year ago , from Mr . Fabbroni was at
17 some point during this development , that was supposed to
18 become a covered sewer system .
19 My major concerns are that the sewer system at
20 some point be controlled and have the capacity to take all
21 the drainage off . This construction , as well as the
22 development itself because it ' s the flow towards - - right
23 across our land . The drainage tendency is across our
24 pro pert: y .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 30
1 CHAIRMAN MAY : You don ' t mean sewer , you mean
2 storm water ?
3 MS . CLERMONT : . Right , drainage , the sewer system
a_ is , I guess what he referred to it as .
5 MR . SCHICKEL : No , storm water .
6 MS . CLERMONT : my last concern is ? I agree there
7 is a change in the appearance of the development . It
8 disturbs me a little bit . My view of Eastwood Commons as I
9 stand on our property now looks like several different
10 houses kind of , you know , set around . This makes it look
11 like we ' re looking at an apartment complex . The kind of
12 expense that we ' re thinking of putting up on that property
13 for our home when you have 30 feet away , from our boundary
14 straight across , a very extensive building complex is a
15 little bit different than what I envisioned when I saw this
16 first map up above of separate houses . So , I guess that ' s
17 my main concern along with the storm water drainage that
18 would come directly across . Mr . Fabbroni walked our
19 property with us and said that we definitely had to be kept
20 a watch on because there are drainage things that come
21 across our property already .
22 CHAIRMAN MAY : Thank you .
23 MR . SCHICKEL : If I could comment on that . The
24 storm drainage was rather extremely negotiated in the
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 31
1 original proposal . It is remaining the same . It basically
2 interrupts and intercepts all the water from this property
3 to the property below . In this area back in here , there ' s
4 a larcle pipe and there ' s a swale going all the way . So ,
5 you don ' t need to worry about that .
6 CHAIRMAN MAY : You ' re bringing it all back down
7 to Route 79 ?
. 8 MR . SCHICKEL : No . As you recall , certain areas
9 were divided this way . A portion of it was diverted to
10 here and it was divided and that division is still the
11 operative principle .
12 MS . CLERMONT : As I understand it , at some point
13 there is supposed to be a sewer pipe coming out and
14 spilling into the stream and there were certain very
15 restrictive and several considerations about putting in rip
16 rap . Right now , it ' s just plowed and it drips right into
17 the stream and there is erosion and other problems .
18 MR . SCHICKEL : There ' s the rip rap and there ' s
19 the pipe and it ' s all exactly as you described . You ' d have
20 to see it , but at this point in here , it ' s a draw and then
21 it becomes a pipe . From here on , it ' s a pipe and it ' s all
22 a pipe , even larger than was specified .
23 MS . CLERMONT : That goes into the creek ?
24 MR . SCHICKEL : This part is going down to here
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 32
1 and then over here ( indicating ) . This part of the storm
2 drainage goes into the creek and with this rip rap right
3 there - -
4 MS . CLERMONT * So , none of the new construction
5 will drain into the creek ?
6 MR . SCHICKEL : Yeah , part of it will .
7 MS . CLERMONT : The stuff along the lower
8 boundary .
9 MR . SCHICKEL : Well , this part there , is the
10 catch basins that pick it up and this part right here , the
11 storm drainage comes down here and goes out and into the
12 creek and then it ' s starting from here . Everything from
13 here over there goes that way . Thn this little portion
14 down here comes this way . Then there ' s a catch basin right
15 here . There ' s a pipe down to here , right to here
16 ( indicating ) .
17 MS . STRATAKOS : Where does right to here mean ?
18 Where does it go ?
• 19 MR . STRATAKOS : It ' s where - - basically ,
20 between - -
21 CHAIRMAN MAY : Between my property and the
22 Kings ' . That ' s where it is .
23 MS . STRATAKOS : Does it go down to 79 ?
24 CHAIRMAN MAY : It ' s a stream on the western edge
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 33
1 of my property .
2 MS . STRATAKOS : I don ' t know where your property
3 is . Could you say ?
4 MR . SCHICKEL : Also catch basins here that run
5 it this way , so , it ' s divided up .
6 CHAIRMAN MAY : My house is the white house on
7 the corner of Honness Lane and - -
8 MR . SCHICKEL : He ' s got the sheep .
9 MR . DEINERT : I am Herbert Deinert . I live in a
10 dust bowl that used to be Honness Lane . How much time do
11 you anticipate until the completion of that project ?
12 MR . SCHICKEL : I could give my hope for the
13 answer , but it will be based on sales . . We are hoping to
14 step up the velocity from what it has been . I mean , we
15 built 73 units - in 13 years , We think that this will go a
16 bit faster than that but , you know , that remains to be
17 seen .
18 By optimistic , what I ' d like to see happen is
19 that we would build , say , 20 units a year . Three to five
20 years to build out the whole section would please me very
21 much . I am prepared to do it at whatever - the pace of the
22 market is .
23 MR . DEINERT : In other words , between the
24 construction that is going on the other side of Honness
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 34
1 Lane headed by a good friend and neighbor , Gladys , and
2 yourself , you are intending to turn this or are turning
3 this into a construction site for a considerable number of
4 years , right ?
5 MR . SCHICKEL : well , I think that ' s true .
6 MR . DEINERT : well , also between yourself and
7 Gladys , you ' re creating a variable satellite down on the
8 outskirts of Ithaca . This is where I would like to enter
9 the sentiment expression before I admire the previous
10 building you have put up .
11 MR . SCHICKEL : I think you ' ll admire the new
12 ones , too .
13 MR . DEINERT : This looks like visual clutter .
14 It seems to me a complete and different concept from the
15 concept that you used to employ . This is not going to look
16 as beautiful , not to speak of the density that comes with
17 the increase of occupants .
18 MR . SCHICKEL : we think it will look as
19 beautiful , we agree that it is slightly different ,
J
20 although , many things are the same , but so were the
21 original buildings different. from what was there before .
22 MR . DEINERT : But you , yourself must admit this
23 looks different . I have one other questionwhat is
24 Phase IV going to look like ?
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 35
1 MR . SCHICKEL : This is it .
2 MS . STRATAKOS : This is an approved plan , this
3 phase has been approved ?
4 MR . SCHICKEL : The construction .
5 CHAIRMARI MAY : This site plan has not been
6 approved at this point .
7 MS . STRATAKOS : Phase III has been approved ,
8 there ' s a potential approval in the near future , isn ' t
9 there ?
10 MR . SCHICKEL : We ' re now seeking site plan
11 approval for Phase III .
12 MR . ALLAN : I am Bob Allan . I live on
13 Strawberry Hill Lane , Incidentally , Strawberry is also a
14 familiar name , but I .guess if it ' s germane to this hearing ,
15 I ' d like to know how Norbert plans the ownership of the
16 community building . Is that. something that would be
17 allowed ?
18 CHAIRNIAN MAY : Certainly ,
19 NIR . SCHICKEL : What we propose is that the units
20 in Phase III , the owners of the units at the end of the
21 development will own the community building and it will be
22 structured in such a way that the Phase I and II will have
23 the option to use it on some type of membership basis and
24 if they want to use it for meetings . I would hope that it
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 36
1 would serve the whole community . We ' re anxious to do that .
2 I would have liked to have built it sooner , but
3 the fact is that this is the stage in the development when
4 it has been possible to contemplate it . But our concept
5 now , one point that maybe I should mention , that is this ,
6 the lower phase we ' re seeing as allied by separate
7 association .
8 So , that association would own the community
9 building and I feel that it doesn ' t burden the present
10 owners . In other words , some of them might aunt to
• 11 undertake that extent and some might not . And the people
12 that are buying into the Phase III , they will know what
13 they are undertaking .
14 MR . ALLAN : Part of their cost - -
15 CHAIRMAN MAY : Wasn ' t the pavilion in the
16 original plan ?
17 MR . SCHICKEL : We talked about it . I didn ' t put
18 it on the map . It wasn ' t on the plan , we did discuss it
19 at the hearing at that time .
20 MR . ALLAN : So , there would be a possibility of
21 renting the facilities , but no mandate to buy a part as far
22 as - -
23 MR . SCHICKEL : No obligations to do anything ,
24 but hopefully , we can be mutually beneficial , too .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 37
1 MS . STRATAKOS : I guess now I realize this could
2 take 13 years . When do you plan on building Harwick Road
3 or whatever the name is ? When can that accommodate trucks ?
4 It ' s a very great concern , you know ,, where I live and what
5 they ' re doing across the street . I have to carry ropes and
6 bicycles attached to me . We don ' t have any sidewalks .
7 MR . SCHICKEL : If trucks go by you , they ' re
8 somebody elses .
9 MS . STRATAKOS : If they go two ways on two
10 streets , it would cut down on the number going by me .
11 MR , SCHICKEL : I would say next spring , summer ,
12 that road would be in place .
13 MS . STRATAKOS : The trucks that have been going
14 down the street have not been going mostly into your area ,
15 so , you ' ve not been causing a problem so far .
16 MR . SCHICKEL : We haven ' t been building but , you
17 know , that ' s directly proportional to building .
18 MS . STRATAKOS : I would like it to at least be
19 split up somehow .
20 MR . DEINERT : I have one more question . I am
21 not quite sure to whom I should address it . Twenty years
22 we have lived on Honness Lane . Everything has changed
23 except the street itself . It was paved once and the sewer
24 was built on the other side of the street . Are there any
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 38
1 plans for Honness Lane now that we will have a temporarily
2 increased amount of traffic ?
3 Right now , my major complaint on Honness Lane
4 would be that nobody observes the speed limit , which many
5 years ago was posted at 35 , but I don ' t think anybody
6 drives at 35 , not down hill and not up hill . The main
7 question is are there any plans , let ' s say , for widening
8 Honness Lane , putting signs on one side or both sides ? If
9 so , will the adjoining property owners have to pay a
10 substantial portion of the cost for the new construction ?
11 CHAIRMAN MAY : This would be the wrong place for
12 that . The Town Board would be the right place to ask that
13 question . I can ' t answer that ,
14 MR . DEINERT : One question I would ask is when
15 they ' re going to take some of the crown out of the Honness
16 Lane . We ' re getting more and more cars passing . That
17 could be another problem .
18 One other question in relation to the density ,
19 not similarly to this development here , but to all of these
20 others that appear to be major developments on Honness
21 Lane , is that the fact that the area seems to be growing so
22 fast . Does your Board determine or does the Town Board
23 determine the area density in the neighborhood of this kind
24 or doesn ' t anybody ?
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 39
1 e MR . SCHICKEL : Well , there are densities , yes ,
2 but we were essentially limited by a zoning ordinance as to
3 what can occur , but up to that point , then , you know - -
4 MR . DEINERT : But you scrutinize all these plans
5 in relation to the others so that isn ' t exceeded ?
6 MR . SCHICKEL : We try to , yes .
7 MS . STRATAKOS : I am sorry to ask so many
8 questions . You don ' t get too many chances . You just said
9 this wouldn ' t be the place to ask about the road . My
10 understanding , there is a study going on about roads in the
11 Town . I would think that if there "s no coordination
12 between your people and the study , then you should be able
13 to ask. anywhere or bring it to your concern . There should
14 be some coordination between that plan and the next 13
15 years of traffic .
16 CHAIRMAN MAY * From a comprehensive planning
17 standpoint , we do make recommendations to the Town Board .
18 So , if you have a specific road you have something
19 specific , what you want done , the Town Board is the place
20 to go to get it , not this Board . We don ' t have any direct
21 authority .
22 MS . STRATAKOS : I guess I am saying , if
23 construction staygwith us 13 years , the plan itself should
24 somehow be built into the overall as it is directly
Town of ' Ithaca Planning Board 40
1 related .
2 MR . HARTMAN : I ' d like to ask a question . Refer
3 back to this first map over here ( indicating ) . This , as I
4 gather , this is now being replaced by this . This is in
5 character with all the rest , Why did you change what was
6 in back of that , because it seems so odd .
7 MR . SCHICKEL : The thinking is dictated by
8 making the plans , kind of development possible , and to take
9 advantage of the opportunity on the site . I agree that it
10 has a. slightly different character than that , but
11 basically , they ' re going to be very nice homes . The
12 landscaping is going to be very attractive . I think once
13 they ' re built , people will be absolutely charmed with them .
14 So , I :mean , you know , you take it just a little different .
15 MR . HARTMAN : What you got is so nice now ? I
16 hate to see it spoiled .
17 MR . SCHICKEL : It is nice , but you know , we had
18 a hard time convincing people that that was nice , too .
. 19 MR . EGNER : Anton Egner and I am in the business
20 of designing , as most of you know . The character of the
21 proposed development now is a lot different than what is
22 there . Now , I think all of us bought into the development
23 because of what was there and because of what we saw on the
Q� 24 map . The new character , you know , fads change , times
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 41
1 change , 13 years has gone by , but it ' s distinctly urban .
2 It distinctly - - I may say there is no more density , but
3 there is probably no less than 10 feet between the
4 building , probably no more than 50 feet between the corner
5 of the building and number 7 . There are judgments from
6 this distance .
7 The 30 feet to the property line , I guess , if
8 the neighbor with her five acres decided to develop it , it
9 wouldn ' t , inside of putting a single - family house there ,
10 which presumably 13 years from now she could do that . She
11 would be facing a solid w.all except for 10 feet between the
12 buildings . So , I could feel that there is a distinct
13 change in the character and I ' m not ready to say that I - -
14 yeah , I am ready to say I don ' t really care for the
15 character . - I like the other character because you can see
16 between the buildings . You can see through them .
17 I don ' t think you are going to see through these
18 at ground level . I am also concerned about almost 20
19 garages in a row that are facing the street . You can
20 landscape them , you can do a lot of this . I am concerned
21 about that kind of character basically , it was landscaping .
22 I don ' t: think , again , that ' s the kind of character that
23 most of: us who own in the area we have looked at .
24 I don ' t question the differential in heights
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 42
1 that you wouldn ' t be seeing anything different over, the top
2 of the roofs , but you sure as heck aren ' t going to be
3 seeing through the buildings because there are no sight
4 lines anymore that you can see at the lower level which
5 have all been destroyed .
6 I think that is why these are looking denser and
7 because you had four units before , I think you lost some
8 units when you went to three , so , your overall density is
9 going to be the same . On this , you probably have a little
10 bit more density than you showed in the previous one .
11 These are only eyeball things I am looking at . I wouldn ' t
12 have done it that way I guess is what I am saying .
13 CHAIRMAN MAY : Are there any other comments from
14 anyone in the public ? Anybody else that wishes to say
15 anything ? If not , let us close the Public Hearing and
16 bring it back to the Board for additional questions and so
17 on . I think there will be a fair number of additional
18 questions . Bob , have you looked at this plan at this point
19 and tried to evaluate the impervious surface of this versus
20 the other and looked at the drainage at all ?
21 MR . FLUMERFELT : No , I haven ' t , but I believe
22 that Larry Fabbroni gave that close evaluation and I
23 haven ' t gone over what he did before , but I am sure that
24 was done . I ' d be glad to do whatever additional is needed
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 43
1 or whatever hasn ' t been done in that respect .
2 MR . BARNEY * At this specific plan ?
3 MS . BEENERS : Yes . Larry looked at one version
4 of this specific Phase III plan , made some suggestions and
5 those suggestions were incorporated . It was resubmitted
6 and Larry basically gave what I call a preliminary
7 approval , something which would be subject to further
8 examination and approval by Bob .
9 CHAIRMAN MAY : Again , just looking at it , my gut
10 feeling would be the surface run off on there might be
11 substantially greater and faster than the original plan .
12 MR . FLUMERFELT : Just. an estimate , from this
13 distance , it does look that way to me . It looks like a lot
14 more impervious surface .
15 CHAIRMAN MAY : Impervious surfaces , do you mean ,
16 down in the culverts resulting in much higher velocity and
17 much greater amounts ?
18 MR . FLUMERFELT : If pipe sizes have been
19 increased .
20 MR . SCHICKEL : We just did that generally on
21 principle , but I . would say if you look at the impervious
22 surfaces , you ' re probably not taking into account the
23 parking areas that are shown there .
/I� 24 MR . FLUMERFELT : I am trying to see those , too .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 44
1 MR . SCHICKEL : My guess is there may be a
2 small increase in the amount of impervious surfaces for the
3 reason that the garages are not tucked under the building ,
4 but since these are in the original building , one of the
5 units was a one - story unit . I don ' t think when you measure
6 it off it will be all that different . It may be slightly .
7 CHAIRMAN MAY : When you say slight , what do you
8 means percentage - wise ?
9 MR . SCHICKEL : I better not speculate . We can
10 take a count on that .
11 CHAIRMAN MAYa I think that ' s something that
12 definitely needs to be done .
13 MR . KLEIN : I have a whole bunch of questions ,
14 but I think one is sort of our authority in -this case ,
15 which I guess my question is to John .
16 I will try to simplify things . If Mr . Schickel
17 wanted to proceed with Phase III with no change to his site
18 plan that was approved in 1973 , we probably would not even
19 be involved , am I correct ?
20 MR . BARNEY : No . You are still involved . Each
21 phase is subject to the Planning Board , if indeed not the
22 Town Board . Approval would be involved .
23 MR . KLEIN : Since he has a fundamental shift in
24 what he received his approval for , both in terms of site
J
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 45
1 plan , numbers of buildings in a cluster , you know , would we
2 review this in terms of cluster regulations ? At this
3 point ,• it seems like he opened up a whole issue of really
4 what we can review . At this particular point , I would say
5 it ' s our authority that goes far in this thing . I tend to
6 look at it in the cluster right approved as a multiple
7 residence prior to our having a cluster ordinance and you
8 look at it in terms - -
9 MR . BARNEY : It ' s kind of an old ball . It was
10 back in 1973 as I understand it , but it ' s been regulated by
11 both the multiple residence district requirements of our
12 zoning ordinance and the cluster regulations , and both the
13 regulations have been looked at for the purpose of , as I
14 understand , the ownership on this is going to be the same
15 as the other ownership , each individual .
16 MR . SCHICKEL : You say the ownership of the - -
17 MR . BARNEY : Each individual unit .
18 MR . SCHICKEL : - - is going to be owned by a
19 single family .
20 MR . BARNEY : Each will separately own . It ' s not
21 going to be - -
22 MR . SCHICKEL : That ' s right .
23 MR . BARNEY : Again , the condominium concept , S
24 except it ' s not a condominium because the people actually
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 46
1 own the underlying piece of land where it sits . It ' s
2 really the cluster development .of the single - family homes ,
3 clustered together . When the original plan was put in
4 place ,, there was a limit of four units that could be
5 clustered into one building . That ' s been changed now to
6 six in our cluster regulation . It would change from four
7 to six: in a couple of areas . It is consistent now with our
8 cluster regulation, but not consistent with what they were
9 back in 1973 .
10 So , in terms of review , a very broad power
11 precedent directs you to have site plan approval , project
12 review , approval process and also on the cluster
13 regulation , we again have site plan approval . And then to
14 go one step further in this purpose was a resolution that
15 was adopted in 1983 , which required the Town Board to
16 review unless they delegate back to the Planning Board ,
17 which as far as I know , has not occurred . The drainage
18 plan that has to be approved by the Town Board , the final
19 drainage plan before building permits can be issued and
20 some other items .
21 CHAIRHAN MAY , John , correct me if I am wrong ? I
22 - think right at the moment , it is the Town Board who has
23 final review of this in all aspects . The only thing we can
24 do is recommend .
•
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 47
1 Now , there ' s fair reason to believe that they
2 might delegate it back because the law ' has changed since
3 this original approval occurred , but at this point , I do
4 not think we have any final authority at all on the plan .
5 MS . GRIGOROV : It says here site plan approval .
6 CHAIRMAN MAY : The way the actual resolution is
7 written , it is by the Town Board ,
8 MR . BARNEY : I find a little ambiguity in that .
9 I think there is one possible reading of that resolution ,
10 probably what was intended .
S11 CHAIRMAN MAY : It was definitely what was
12 intended in 173 whether or not that still exists .
13 MS . GRIGOROV : Flow about Phase II ?
14 MR . BARNEY : There is a provision that any
15 determination which is to be made by the Town Board
16 hereunder may be delegated to the Town Planning Board and
17 insofar as such delegation may be permitted .
18 I thought the staff people , Susan and myself , I
19 don ' t know , we would make a recommendation to the Town
20 Board that the site plan review would be delegated back to
21 the Planning Board ,
22 CHAIRMAN MAY : Sort of expected that was going
23 to happen , but obviously at this point , since it has not
24 happened , it looks like we do not have any final authority
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 48
1 at this point .
2 Any other questions other people have ?
3 MR . KLEIN : I believe Susan mentioned it , we do
4 have problems with distances between the buildings ' either
5 in the cluster regulations or in the multiple residences as
6 it presently is written . So , that ' s an area that has to be
7 addressed .
8 I didn ' t bring my cluster regulations . What ' s
9 the buffer zone ?
10 MR . BARNEY : Thirty feet .
11 MS . BEENERS : Thirty feet .
12 MR . KLEIN : The distance between the buildings ?
13 MS . BEENERS : Thirty feet .
14 CHAIRMAN MAY : That ' s 15 feet .
15 MS . BEENERS : Cluster regulations is 30 . That ' s
16 why I :have that waiver thing . I mean as far as what my
17 understanding is of the way the multiple residence zoning
18 fits into here , Section 281 of the Town Law permits the
19 Planning Board to make quite a bit of modification in
20 regard to what we are trying to examine in this plan as far
21 as what is a part of a multiple residence district . It ' s
22 clear that in the original site plan that was approved , the
23 Town Board was looking at , well , it was using 281 of the
24 Town Law and actually was making some modification of
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 49
1 multiple residences because it was approved as a cluster
2 development as well .
3 CHAIRPIAN MAY : Prior to the time of the making
4 of the cluster regulations ?
5 MS . BEENERS % Yes . Prior to having our local
6 cluster ordinance .
7 CHAIRMAN MAY : Norbert , you have 70 units in
8 Phase III . How many units were originally in Phase III ?
9 MR . SCHICKEL : Well , we can put them up here .
10 CHAIRMAN MAY : How many buildings ?
11 MR . SCHICKEL : 17 times 4 .
12 CHAIRMAN MAY : That ' s 68 . Did you count
13 building 20 in that ?
14 MR . SCHICKEL : No , I took that out of there .
15 Now , the overall density has gore from 176 to 146 .
16 MR . COMSTOCK : Did you count building 33 in
17 there ?
18 MR . SCHICKEL : I didn ' t count that .
19 CHAIRMAN MAY : Are you still anticipating that
20 you ' re going to have to pump sanitary sewage for buildings
21 32 and 31 ?
22 MR . SCHICKEL : We never contemplated pumping it ,
23 and we have put this manhole down about 20 some feet so
24 that we wouldn ' t have to . We don ' t anticipate pumping
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 50
1 sewage! at all .
2 CHAIRMAN MAY : You were originally going to
3 pump ?
4 NIR . SCHICKEL : No . We designed it so we didn ' t
5 have to . It was one of those things we kicked back and
6 forth , but we designed it so it wouldn ' . t have to be pumped .
7 We don ' t like that .
8 CHAIRMAN MAY : Any other questions anybody has ?
9 MR . BARNEY * Where ' s your list ?
10 NIR . KLEIN * Well , I had some other questions to
11 Susan . We briefly talked about it terms of where it ' s in
12 violation of the cluster zoning . Mainly , it ' s really the
13 30 foot distance separation . How about the height of the
14 buildings or is there any question , it ' s a three - story
15 structure ?
16 MS . BEENERS : Height of a building . No building
17 shall be more than 30 feet in height and I believe we
18 determined that we ' re looking at it and it gets into a
19 problem as to how the height is actually calculated of 27
20 feet - isn ' t it Harrison ? Isn ' t it 27 feet here and about
21 24 feet: at this point here ( indicating ) on the two ends of
22 the building how that is actually - -
23 CHAIRMAN PLAY : Didn ' t we at one time look at an
24 average between the two as being the - -
0
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 51
1 MR . KLEIN : Well , sometimes we look at the
2 height: of the building that faces the street , whether it
3 dropped off the back . We had that on multiple residences .
4 We looked at it that way .
5 CHAIRMAN MAY : We tried to figure out some way
6 that made sense and I think we have looked at it several
7 different ways as we actually tried to get it on an average
8 that would clear the 30 feet . If you were to take an
9 average of the front and back - -
10 MR . SCHICKEL : It wouldn ' t exceed 30 feet .
11 MS . BEENERS : As it reads in the definition ,
12 it ' s the distance from the lowest point of grade to the
13 highest point on the roof , which - -
14 CHAIRMAN MAY : Which would mean taking that
15 lower level to the peak . And if that ' s 27 feet from the
16 road too the peak , I thin {; I can see without too much
17 question that section exceeds 30 feet to the lowest point .
18 MR . SCHICKEL : Per my interpretation , this is 27
19 feet and this is I mean , if you ' re going down a
20 hill - -
21 MR , KLEIN : We ' re talking about the east line or
22 whatever , its total height ?
23 MR . SCHICKEL : The height at any point above the
24 ground is under the requirement .
• Town of Ithaca Planning Board 52
1 MR . KLEIN : Including the back ?
2 CHAIRMAN MAY . No . That wouldn ' t be true .
3 MR . SCHICKEL : It would make a ridiculous
4 development if you ended up having the ground out here , I
5 mean , when the opportunity to take advantage of that - -
6 CHAIRMAN MAY : Well that - -
7 MR . KLEIN : I just bring that up to serve as
8 another area to be concerned about . My general comment is
9 that I ' d like to comment about things . Actually ,
10 Mr . Egner , I think said it very well and other people here
11 as well , I am a little bit perplexed why you have made such
12 a radical change in terms of character of the cluster .
13 MR . SCHICKEL : We have responded to the market
14 throughout the development . In other words , if you look
15 at - - we started with these . Then we went to a rather
16 large one - story unit here and that ' s , when the interest
17 rates were 17 percent and so forth . And now , we ' re feeling
18 the need for a different type of unit . Right now , we feel
• 19 that that ' s what the people want and need . They need a
20 little bit more space and so that ' s what this is . It ' s
21 really in response to what we ' re hearing , we listen , we try
22 to adapt to that .
23 MS . GRIGOROV : So , the reason you changed the
24 design is to make bigger units , that ' s why it ' s - -
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 53
1 MR . SCHICKEL : Not really bigger , in fact , some
2 of the other units are considerably bigger , but it relates
3 to the units that we ' ve been building . The one - story units
4 covered a lot of ground for the unit . These units were all
5 two - story units . And the larger units up in here are , you
6 know , quite large and two of the units are single - story
7 units and , you know , maybe we ' re more aware of the
8 drawbacks as well as the assets and we ' re always trying to
9 overcome them and try to capitalize on the view and cross
10 ventilation and a number of features that you ' re trying to
11 get into the building here .
12 This presented an opportunity to have everything
13 with the right kind of a unit to have all the pluses , have
14 the cross ventilation , to have the view and to be very
15 level , to have a nice level road and so forth , quite level .
16 So , these are the considerations entered into .
17 Also , we will be able to offer a better value in
18 terms of cost per square foot . They will be somewhat more
• 19 attractive in that regard . we ' re offering single - story
20 units right now . we ' re offering both types and , you know ,
21 there ' s a market for both .
22 The other thing is that these units , the larger
23 units up here , we built four buildings of the villa , one we
r
24 built four buildings of the villa twos . And we built three
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 54
1 units of the villa threes and plus the original units . So ,
. 2 you know , we ' ve got quite a range of facilities and also we
3 wanted to not be in competition with our own by years . We
4 wanted to be doing something different and creating a
5 situation where we ' re not directly competing with that .
6 That ' s not a big consideration because it really isn ' t an
7 issue . It ' s one of the considerations .
8 MR . KLEIN : But again , in the original scheme ,
9 there seems to be a 'better - -
10 MR . SCHICKEL : It ' s a little different .
11 MR . KLEIN : - - sensitivity for open space .
12 MR . SCHICKEL : The sensitivity to open space ,
13 too , but it ' s slightly different and we think better , not
14 than the original units , we think it ' s superior for the
15 given location , better utilization of the property and
16 we ' ll make a more attractive development than simply
17 repeating what we ' ve been doing before .
18 You know , I ' ll give you some examples of what I
19 mean , but take for instance , if we built a villa down here
20 below the road , it ' s different when they ' re above the road
21 and we drive in and the way the garage goes and so forth .
22 But also , they have gotten quite expensive and we feel that
23 there is a market for that and we built for that market ,
24 but it ' s somewhat limited .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 55
1 We think , you know , these fall between the two .
2 These are more expensive than these and ' less expensive than
3 these „ Basically , what we ' re trying - -
4 MR . KLEIN : It ' .s really economic . I think
5 basically it ' s an economic decision on your part .
6 MR . SCHICKEL : No . If I could say to you we ' ve
7 gone through about - - I get 12 or 15 planning studies to
8 get the optimum utilization of this site from this
9 standpoint . We ' re not people that would do it just for
10 economics . I mean , it ' s a matter of doing it to make a
® 11 beautiful development and that ' s what we care about .
12 That ' s the only thing we really care about .
13 I say that no one is going - - Tony would have a
14 different view . There is no uniquely right solution to a
15 practical problem, but we believe , and I think we believed
16 that the original units would be very nice . We believed
17 that Phase II and two units would be nice . We ' re
18 absolutely convinced that these will be very nice and they
19 will be appreciated by the owners and by the neighbors ,
20 too .
21 CHAIRMAN MAY . Susan , how many acres does
22 Phase ]: II encompass ?
23 MR . SCHICKEL : I don ' t have that on the tip of
24 my tongue .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 56
1 MR . RUE : 8 . 49 , 8 1 / 2 .
2 CHAIRMAN MAYO Eight - and - a - half - acres , Three
3 and a half per acre would be vastly exceeding it in this - -
4 the density in Phase III on the land is much higher .
5 MS . BEENERS : Well , this is the application of a
a 6 cluster to a multiple residence zone . If he did what was
0
7 originally approved , the 176 units would have been 9 . 3
8 units per acre . As proposed , the total for the Eastwood
9 Commons project would be 7 . 7 units per acre because he has
10 reduced the total number by 30 units .
11 This phase . though , the Phase III is around eight
12 units an acre compared to the previous phases which are
13 around seven , if that makes any sense .
14 MR . KLEIN : What partof the cluster regulation
15 do we comply with since it exceeds the density ?
16 MR . BARNEY : That ' s why you have the legislation
17 in 1973 which created - -
18 MR . SCHICKEL : Seems to me in the original
19 approval , the density and those things were basically
20 approved .
21 MR . KLEIN : Yes , officially they were , sure .
22 CHAIRP=iAN MAY : Well , what ' s your pleasure ? I
23 guess I am concerned about the drainage . There ' s been . a
24 number of concerns expressed about buildings . What would
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 57
1 you like to do ?
2 MR KLEIN : What ' s down here is to recommend
3 something to the Town Board ,
4 CHAIRMAN MAY ; The other thing is that if we
5 wish to , we can adjourn it and - -
6 NIR . KLEIN : Did you give us a revised draft
7 resolution ?
8 MS . BEENERS : Revised draft resolution , , yes .
9 MS . GRIGOROV : So , you ' re expecting us to pass
10 it on to the Town Board with the recommendation ?
11 MS . BEENERS : I was expecting what you might do
12 was to make a recommendation to the Town Board that they
13 will , among other things , delegate the final site plan
14 approval to the Planning Board . That ' s in the resolved
15 section which is basically the different things that I am
16 recommending that you recommend to the Town Board mainly to
17 get this item with the right board for any further
18 approval .
• 19 CHAIRMAN MAY : How long has the Tompkins County
20 Health Department , Highway Department and State Department
21 of TrCansportation been advised that you ' re recommending us
22 as Lead Agency ?
23 MS . BEENERS : They have a 30 day - - they were
24 just notified .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 58
1 CHAIRtrAN MAY :
We really need 'to give them the
2 30 days before we take any action here then to - -
3 MS . BEENERS : I sent the material out as soon as
4 it was possible once I got it .
5 CfiAIRRIAN MAY : They should have an opportunity
6 to respond if they wish .
7 MS . BEENERS : Yes .
8 MR . KLEIN : I have another question . Susan , on
9 the draft resolution 4 . E1 , could you explain waiving the
10 parking requirements on the side of the road ? I don ' t
11 quite - - between the 173 resolution , there is that
12 requirement that no parking spaces will be located within
13 the boundary of any public street or highway because of the
14 narrowness of the site and what Mr . Schickel is trying to
15 do between Sunny Slope Lane and that western boundary , you
16 know , at the bottom of the page , there ' s a problem where
17 the parking spaces are encroaching perhaps about five feet
18 into the future right - of - way .
19 CHAIRh1AN MAY : That ' s not shown on the plan , is
20 it ?
21 MR . BARNEY * The scale , it is . I think the
22 highway right - of - way , the road itself is 25 feet in width ,
23 it ' s the paved portion . The portion of the Town will be 50
24 feet if you take that parking area , it ' s to the south of
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 59
1 the road and actually to the north as well as both sides
2 will encroach on it by five feet on that Town highway
3 right -- of - way .
4 MS . BEENERS : This side is okay . The ones that
5 are on the east side of Sunny Slope , those are okay . Those
6 are outside of the 50 feet right - of - way , scaled up on the
7 large map .
8 The ones on the west side of Sunny Slope - -
9 MR . KLEIN : Are in it ?
10 NIS . BEENERS : Are about five feet in .
11 MR . KLEIN : Is that a restriction on the
12 subdivision in general though ?
13 If we have required parking off the 50 foot
14 right - of - way , I think it would be assumed to be a
15 restriction in the cluster regulation I guess is all I
16 could say .
17 MS . BEENERS : Because of the fact , I mean , the
18 road would be - - so it would be encroaching into - -
. 19 CHAIRMAN MAY : What you ' re really doing is
20 recommending that five feet be taken off the right - of - way .
21 That ' s what you ' re really doing in effect and I don ' t think
22 that that ' s something we ought to start precedence on
23 doing .
24 MR . KLEIN : It would affect somewhere down the
0
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 60
1 road , somewhere down the line regrading of the road or
2 ditches or something . They don ' t have enough room to work ,
3 is that what it is ?
4 MS . BEENERS : Well , in this case , I mean , you ' re
5 dealing with curves rather than ditches and in fairly
6 contained situations - -
7 MR . KLEIN : The Town Engineer doesn ' t see this
8 as a problem ?
9 (VIS . BEENERS : Bob , do you see this as a problem
10 with the resolution , the right - of - way by five feet on that
11 side ? Curves are proposed there . I judge that the
12 drainage could be handled within the paved street lines
13 with catch basins and culvert pipes , but I ' m not trying to
14 imply that reduction of the right - of - way is okay , it ' s not
15 in the policy , just that the drainage can probably be
16 handled .
17 MR . FLUMERFELT : There are other considerations
18 that just come to mind . In heavy snow storms , you have to
19 plow snow from the streets and you could conceivably end up
20 plowing snow into those parking spaces on the west side of
21 the street , It might be a very infrequent occurrence , but
22 those are some things that should be given consideration , I
23 think when we talk about narrowing the right - of - way
24 requirement .
_ I
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 61
1 XS . GRIGOROV : Did you figure out we can ' t do
2 this now ?
3 CHAIP, t1AN [SAY : Well , I have questions about
4 whether or not we should . I have a question about whether
5 or not: we should do the environmental assessment without
6 having given the affected agency an opportunity to answer .
7 I also think there are still some questions on this plan .
8 The right - of - way of the road , I have some
9 concerns about that . I have some real concerns about these
10 garages and buildings .
11 MR . KLEIN * Offhand , I ' d say in your resolution ,
12 I think maybe it ' s too comprehensive . Isn ' t the real
13 question that we ask the Town Board to give us the
14 authority to review and approve or disapprove Phase III ,
15 across the board , subject to whatever rights they would
16 reserve normally and then we can review it so it would kind
17 of put the cart a little bit farther behind the horse by
is stipulating some of the modifications we might approve to
19 the site plan and then also at the same time asking them ,
20 can we approve it , then we ' ll get it back again and we ' ll
21 look at these again .
22 It seems to me , we should get the Town Board to
23 grant 'us to review it as we normally would review it .
24 MR . BARNEY : It ' s fine with me .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 62
1 MR . KLEIN : To me that ' s the sequence it should
2 be .
3 MR . BARNEY : The reason they were all sent out
4 was to highlight for you what the changes are that are
5 being requested or would be necessary to pass in order to
6 adopt this particular plan .
7 MR , KLEIN : I would tend to list them as
8 potential changes or something so we ' re still going to
9 review it .
10 CHAIRMAN MAY : Is it appropriate for the
11 Planning Board to ask the Town Board to pass this back to
12 us ?
13 MR . BARNEY : If you want to give us the sense
14 that you ' re willing to do that , I think we can get an
15 agenda item on the Town Board meeting next week to
16 determine whether they want to kick it back to you or not .
17 One area which I think the Town Board has to deal with - -
18 CHAIRMAN MAY : 4Covenants is still the area that
. 19 the Town Board has to - -
20 MR . KLEIN : We never approved those .
21 CHAIR [+IAN MAYO We don ' t want to . That ' s one
22 that they should definitely - - I think there is no question
23 that the Planning Board will be more than happy to review
24 it . If: they want to pass it back to us , I don ' t think
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 63
1 there ' s any question about that .
2 MR . BARNEY * I don ' t think they will form the
3 resolution . Do we have it on the agenda ?
4 The reason it was set apart this way , the Town
5 Board meets November 6th or something like that . They
6 won ' t meet again until December and if this particular plan
7 were to meet with the Planning Board approval , that ' s the
8 issue they have to make in order for it to be approved .
9 It ' s not in conformity with the resolution adopted by the
10 Town Board . When this proposal was originally adopted in
11 1973 , , recital of all these changes are changes that would
12 have to be made or waivers that would have to occur
13 relative to that original law .
14 we could go through this proposal and have it
15 sent back to you and you review it and then you ' re going to
16 have to perhaps have it sent. back to the Town Board in
17 December . If you were going to accept this plan or have
18 the plan modified somewhat by this plan , that would require
19 the change in the original ordinance . I think this is alifll
20 bit of a short cut to say to the Town Board we recommend
21 these changes be adopted . You adopt the changes and then
22 send it. back to us , and we ' ll review it for final site plan
23 review .
24 CHAIRMAN MAY : I think if we were looking at the
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 64
1 original Phase III , that would make some sense . It seems
2 to me like we have far too many changes here to do it that
3 way properly . I think - -
4 MR . BARNET : It ' s up to you . This is your
5 decision .
6 CHAIRMAN MAY : - - on that , I would be
7 uncomfortable . I certainly would be uncomfortable with
8 saying to this at this point , we ' re going to accept this
9 plan :if they just turn it over to us .
10 Other members of the Board speak , also .
11 MR . BARNEY * Let me suggest that at some point
12 whethE! r you send it. to the Town Board , they authorize you
13 to review it , I think it ' s likely to . happen , you ' re going
14 to have to address this plan .
15 Now , the question is : Is it proper to address
16 it tonight or wait a month ? I am not sure a great deal is
17 benefitted in waiting a month . If you don ' t like the plan ,
18 I think probably it ' s not inappropriate to say so tonight .
19 Let Mr . Schickel go to the drawing board and come up with
20 something else .
21 MS . GRIGOROV : Should we go into anymore
22 discussion without having decided ?
23 CHAIRMAN MAY . I guess - -
24 MR . KLEIN & We ' re still saying in item four if
• Town of Ithaca Planning Board 65
1 these modifications are represented by the Town Board , we
2 are going to get it back to review the site plan , and the
3 subdivision plan resolution still calls for us to get it
4 back ?
5 MR . BAKER : what happens when it goes to
6 approval ?
7 1MR . KLEIN : I am not trying to drag this out
8 intentionally , but it is - - I think we said in the
9 beginning it ' s a very unusual circumstance . Since I have
10 been on the Board , we haven ' t had this kind of
11 circumstance .
12 MR . BAKER : Maybe we need a different kind of
13 resolution .
14 CHAIRh1AN MAY : Do you care to make one ?
15 MR . BAKER : The plan is the problem . •
16 CHAIRMAN MAY : Unfortunately , we have the
17 problem of exactly how to handle it .
18 MR . BARNEY : Let ' s go through the resolution .
• 19 Some of the things need to be addressed regardless of what
20 you do ..
21 The first one , that , the proposed modifications
22 herein be considered an action excluded from environmental
23 review , pursuant to Town of Ithaca Local Law No . 3 , 1980 ,
24 Section III , because the project was originally approved
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 66
1 prior to November 1 , 1978 . There again , our recommendation
2 basis , this is again only a recommendation . It ' s raised in
3 the form of recommendations .
4 Item two , that the Planning Board act as Lead
5 Agency in the environmental review of the site plan and
6 subdivison plan for Phase III of Eastwood Commons as a Type
7 I action .
8 Item three that certain modifications be - - I
9 think we would try for one . You ' re not prepared to
10 determine this tonight .
11 4B ( 2 ) , that ' s up to you . Maybe you ' d want to
12 review on that .
13 MR . KLEIN : Yeah , okay .
14 MR . BARNEY * 4C ( l ) would be the - - 4C ( 2 ) , that
15 seems to me that would stay . 4D ( 1 ) would probably stay .
16 4E ( 1 ) you may want to hold on that issue . You can delay
17 that now and make a determination later . 5 ( 1 ) and 5 ( 2 ) ,
18 maybe you ' d want to wait on it until you make a
19 determination on the plan . 6 ( B ) probably could stay in .
20 That ' s not binding on you to accept six units to a cluster .
21 It would give you the flexibility if you wanted it . 7 ( C )
22 would stay in . Three would remain , I would think . Four
23 you could hold on to depending on the outcome of any
24 subsequent review . Three you would probably want to hold
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 67
1 on until subsequent review . Four , presumably at this point
2 in time doesn ' t make too much difference . In fact , I would
3 say anything after one , we probably should wait for final
4 determination on the plan .
5 MS . BEENERS : That the Planning Board could
6 waive certain requirements .
7 MR . BARNEY : Now , you could approve - - you could
8 make approval that the Town Board would normally have to
9 make .
10 NIR . KLEIN : we can ' t override a Town Resolution ?
. 11 MR . BARNEY : Not unless they authorize you to do
12 that , which I suppose we could have them do . At this point
13 in time ? I think maybe one is appropriate .
14 CHAIRMAN MAY : Did you say to leave in one ?
15 MR . BARNEY : One , yes .
16 CHAIRMAN MAY : Leave that in ?
17 MR . BARNEY : That ' s the one that ' s kind of a - -
18 I think there is no hurt in leaving that in . If that ' s
19 indeed your feeling , you ' re merely recommending this to the
20 Town Board .
21 MS . BEENERS : That ' s a modification to the law
22 and not site plan approval which would still be the Type I
23 action .
24 CHAIRMAN MAY : I think it should have . That ' s
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 68
1 one of the things it seems like it really is environmental
2 review .
3 CHAIRMAN MAY : Modification of - -
4 MS . BEENERS : Modification of authorizing the
5 distract .
6 CHAIRMAN MAY : Okay . I see , excuse me . All
7 right . You ' re right . That ' s fine .
8 MR . KLEIN : Paragraph two is the most important ,
9 or roman numeral two ?
10 MR . BARNEY : Yes .
11 CHAIRMAY MAY : Yes ,
12 MR . BARNEY : Exactly .
13 MR . KLEIN : I am not sure we have to go past
14 that .
15 MR . BARNEY : Well , it ' s certainly true that the
16 C ( 1 ) would still continue the approval of the water and
17 sewer plan and drainage plan . If you have those two
18 delegated to you , that would remove the need for the
19 specific authority to approve , but not that it hurts to let
20 it stand out there .
21 CHAIRMAN MAY : Three should stay in there ?
22 MR . BARNEY : Yes . Three , but delete 4A ( 1 ) ,
23 4B ( 2 ) , leave in 4C ( 2 ) 4D ( 1 ) . Delete , 4E ( 1 ) . Delete 51 and
24 52 . Leave in , 6B leave in 7C .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 69
1 CHAIRPIAN MAY : Yes . We ' ve have two threes here .
2 MR . BARNEY : I wouldn ' t take the credit for
3 that .
4 MR . KLEIN * The second three is four .
5 MR . BARNEY : Three should be four .
6 CHAIRMAN MAY : Leave four , four should be left
7 in , also , which is not five .
8 MS . BEENERS : Oh , three should be left in as
9 four ?
10 MR . BARNEY : Right . Paragraph one of the new
11 five would be left in with everything else basically .
12 CHAIRMAN MAY : Are we both saying the same thing
13 this is five now ?
14 MR . BARNEY : This is five here ( indicating ) .
15 This stays in and then just put a line through all those .
16 CHAIRMAN MAY : We have three and all of a sudden
17 we have four .
18 MR . BARNEY : These are references . These are
19 references to the paragraphs in the original resolution and
20 that ' s why it ' s - - I think it reads , Monte , that the
21 Planning Board does recommend that the following
22 modifications to the noted sections of the February 26 ,
23 1973 , resolution and these are noted section by section .
24 As Susan raised an interesting point of 4B ( 2 ) ,
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 70
1 the original resolution calls for the sidewalk , bicycle
2 path to be constructed from the district to the East Ithaca
3 Recreation way , I ' m sorry , to Woodcrest , extending it or
4 contracting it .
5 MR . BARNEY & We want to change that so it ' s no
i
6 longer to Woodcrest but to the bike way . So , 4B ( 2 ) - -
7 CHAIRh1AN IaIAY : I don ' t have any problem with
8 doing that , I don ' t believe . How do the rest of you feel ?
9 M.S . GRIGOROV : We pass foot walks or pass bike
10 ways , I don ' t see what they have to do with each other .
11 Was there a reason for the original pathway ?
12 MS . BEENERS : It was before we had the bike way .
13 MS . GRIGOROV : Woodcrest was more like - - was it
14 just for recreational to go to Woodcrest ?
15 MS . BEENERS : It was to be able to - -
16 CHAIRMAN MAY : Actually , the path to Woodcrest
17 would be a better path to the school . Basically , the path
18 is going to take you out on Maple Avenue ,
19 MS . GRIGOROV : No , take you to Mitchell Street ,
20 MR . SCHICKEL : It ' s a very unlikely thing that a
21 path through to Woodcrest can be done because of the rights
22 of the owners , but there is the possibility of a little
23 swap and making it to the bike way , which is a level way
24 right over Mitchell , two blocks down to the school , which
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 71
1 is really a better way .
2 In fact , it ' s not practical to go down Woodcrest
3 and I don ' t think the people would use it .
4 MS . GRIGOROV : It ' s a benefit to the people who
5 live .there to be able to - -
6 MR . SCHICKEL : The people in our development
7 would choose the bike way every time . And I think the
8 people on Woodcrest would prefer it . It ' s kind of a chance
9 to do a little swap .
10 CHAIRMAN MAY : It doesn ' t actually come to the
11 bike path anywhere on your property .
12 NIR . SCHICKEL : This is right along the bike
13 path .
14 CHAIRMAN MAY : Yes , okay .
15 MR . SCHICKEL : We ' re talking about doing a
16 little path right there .
17 CHAIRMAN MAY : 67hich would be within your
18 property ?
• 19 MR . SCHICKEL : No . A Mrs . Orcutt would like to
20 have access to this property and the thought would be to
21 trade - - well , it ' s a little complicated , but there is a
22 restricted part in the deed here that constrains if it ' s
23 never used as a road , it ' s all impediments to the title , we
24 get rid of that , we give that up and with her agreement , my
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 72
1 proposal would be the association trade access here for a
2 right - of - way through here .
3 We build the road , we build the path .
4 MS . GRIGOROV : Just. a path not a road ?
5 MR . SCHICKEL : Yes , just a path .
6 CHAIRMAN MAY : Okay , if that works out , that ' s
7 fine . Is there any problem with doing it on the other side
8 of the line if that didn ' t work out ?
9 MR . SCHICKEL : When you say - - on which side of
10 the line ? Let me say that , it isn ' t like it ' s all a
11 one - way street . In other words , if they were to grant that
12 right - of - way , we ' re giving something in return .
13 CHAIRMAN MAY : Yes , okay . Now , you say that
14 isn ' t built that way ?
15 MR . SCHICKEL : No .
16 CHAIRMAN MAY : What ' s the change ?
17 MR . SCHICKEL : Those are Phase II buildings and
18 there ' s a driveway right along that property .
19 CHAIRMAN MAY : I see .
20 MR . BARNEY : While you have that out , one
21 question I meant to have asked before , the proposed
22 construction , this has all been conveyed hasn ' t it through
23 the residence ?
24 MR . SCHICKEL : Yeah .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 73
1 MR . BARNEY : In the proposed construction the
2 people in the building are complaining about the closeness
3 to the building , does it cross this line ?
4 VIR , SCHICKEL : In the diagram , it may be , but
5 it ' s not - -
6 MR . BARNEY : When I look at that , it ' s like you
7 were - -
8 MR . SCHICKEL : I think that has to be adjusted a
9 little bit . But in other words , we would not propose to
10 build on association property .
11 NIR . BARNEY : Same building down here , the one on
12 that diagram there , one of the diagrams that building had a
13 little - - is it that building or - -
14 MR . SCHICKEL : No . That ' s - - I know it ' s
15 your - - I guess maybe it was up in here . It was . like - -
16 1 CHAIRMAN MAY : One thing I am having a little
17 difficulty with , the original as far as I know , the Town
18 Board requirement is to have two access roads and Harwick
19 was supposed to have been developed actually in here .
20 MR , SCHICKEL : It was agreed that it would be
21 developed in due course .
22 CHAIRMAN MAY : Yes , that ' s right . It was never
23 with the intention of being this long originally anyway .
24 MR . SCHICKEL : Yeah .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 74
1 CHAIRMAN MAY : But that is part of the original
2 requirement of phase - -
3 MR . KLEIN : Two ,
4 CHAIRMAN MAY : Yes . So , that ' s part of the
5 present property owners ' property , right ?
6 MR . SCHICKEL : No . This will belong to the Town
7 and it: will be dedicated to the Town eventually . The way
8 this is proceeding , we own the property and we annex to the
9 association as units . are developed one piece at a time .
10 Now , originally , we did quite a big piece all at
11 once and then subsegently , we ' ve done it as the units have
12 been sold .
13 MR . BARNEY : Is Phase III planned building by
14 building , or , it ' s not going to be like Phase I ?
15 MR . SCHICKEL : No . We may do more than one
16 building at a time , but it will be incremental . It has to
17 be because the financial burden of carrying it is
18 impossible otherwise .
19 MR . KLEIN : When was Phase II approved ? What
20 was the date that Phase II was approved ?
21 MS . BEENERS : September 178 .
22 - MR . KLEIN : September 178 ?
23 MS . BEENERS : Yes .
24 CHAIRMAN MAY : Well , we should - -
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 75
1 MS . GRIGOROV : It ' s hard to believe it wouldn ' t
2 be - -
3 CHAIRMAN MAY : We could - - somebody could make
4 this :motion with these deletions if you wish to ) which does
5 nothing but really advise the Town Board that we would
6 recommend to them assigning us .
7 MR . KENERSON : So , it has to come back anyway ?
8 CHAIRMAN MAY : Absolutely ,
9 MR . KENERSON : Does this preclude another step
10 if we were to do this now to get the Town Board to approve
11 it , we ' d still have to do it later or what ? It ' s sometimes
12 a critical factor .
13 MR . KLEIN : Theoretically , if we make this , we
14 pass this , the Town Board could decide they don ' t want us
15 to review it and they could pass it as the submitted
16 amount , correct ?
17 I mean , that would - -
18 MR . BARNEY : I don ' t think the Town Board is
19 going to do anything with the site plan without your
20 approval or disapproval without a recommendation or lack
21 thereof: .
22 MR . KLEIN : But they could , right ? I don ' t
23 think they will .
24 MR . BARNEY : I ' m not sure they can without
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 76
1 the - - Susan is reminding me there are provisions here for
2 site plan approval that does require a recommendation .
3 They don ' t say they have to follow your recommendation .
4 MR . KLEIN : They could actually keep all the
5 power ?
. 6 MR . BARNEY : They could say we ' re not going to
7 delegate to you . We would like to get your recommendation
8 and it: will bring us back to the state we ' re at tonight . I
9 can ' t speak for the Town Board . My guess or the sense I
10 have of the Town Board , they will probably delegate to not
11 really look to see too much of it back at their level . I
12 could be wrong , but that would be my guess .
13 CHAIRMAN MAY : Anybody care to make a motion ?
14 MR . KLEIN : I will move the draft resolution as
15 the second draft resolution as it ' s been modified .
16 MR . BAKER : Second .
17 CHAIRMAN MAY : We have a second .
18 MR . KLEIN : Do you have it written up for the
. 19 record or crossed out properly which one we left in ?
20 Should I review that again just for - -
21 MS . BEENERS : We have it .
22 ( Draft resolution read )
23 CHAIRMAN MAY * All those in favor say aye .
24 ( All say aye )
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 77
1 CHAIRMAN MAY : Opposed or abstention ?
2 ( No response )
3 ADOPTED RESOLUTION : Recommendation to the Town Board :
4 Consideration of Modifications to a February 26 , 1973
5 Resolution of the Town Board establishing a Multiple
6 Residence District and a Cluster Development therein on
7 Honness Lane , and Consideration of Site Plan and
8 Subdivision Approval for Phase III of Eastwood Commons .
9 WHEREAS :
10 1 . This action is a consideration of Site Plan and
11 Subdivision Approval for Phase III of Eastwood Commons ,
12 70 units and pavilion , proposed to be located in a Multiple
13 Residence District near Honness Lane on Harwick Road and
14 Sunny Slope Lane , Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel
15 No . 6 - 60 - 1 - 25 - 942 .
16 2 . The Town. Board on February 26 , 1973 , resolved to
17 establish a Multiple Residence District and a Cluster
18 Development therein on Honness Lane , such District also
. 19 known as Eastwood Commons .
20 3 . The Planning Board , at a Public Hearing on
21 November 41 1986 , has reviewed the following plans :
22 " Eastwood Commons - Phase III , Honness Lane , Ithaca , New
23 York " by Schickel Design Company , Inc .
24 " Site Development Plan " , dated August 4 , 1986
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 78
1 " Site Grading Plan " , dated August 4 , 1986
2 " Landscaping Plan " , dated August 4 , 1986
3 " Town Houses , Elevations " , sheets A - 1 and A - 2 , dated
4 May 1 , 1986
5 " Pavilion , Elevations " , sheets A - 3 and A = 4 , dated
6 September 24 , 1986
7 " Eastwood Commons , Honness Lane , Ithaca , New York , " by
8 Schickel Design Company , Inc . , and James Engineering
9 " Site Storm Drainage " , dated September 17 , 1986 ,
10 revised October 10 , 1986
11 " Site Water and Sewer " , dated September 17 , 1986 ,
12 revised October 10 , 1986
13 " Details and Notes " , dated September 17 , 1986 .
14 4 . The Town Planner on November 4 , 1986 , has
15 recommended that the Planning Board act as Lead Agency for
16 the environmental review of this Type I action , and has
17 recommended a negative declaration of environmental
18 significance for this action , provided that the action is
• 19 deemed to be in conformance with all necessary land use and
20 zoning regulations . The Tompkins County Health Department ,
21 the Tompkins County Highway Department , and the New York
f,
22 State Department of Transportation are potentially involved
! 23 agencies which have been notified as to the Lead Agency
24 recommendation .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 79
1 THEREFORE , IT IS RESOLVED :
2 I . That the Planning Board recommend and hereby
3 does recommend the following to the Town Board :
4 1 . That the proposed modifications herein ( to the
5 aforementioned February 26 , 1973 , resolution ) be considered
6 an action excluded from environmental review , pursuant to
7 Town of: Ithaca Local Law No . 3 , 1980 ,
8 Section III , because the project was originally approved
9 prior to November 1 , 1978 .
10 2 . That the Planning Board act as Lead Agency in
11 the environmental review of the site plan and subdivision
12 plan for Phase III of Eastwood Commons as a Type I action .
13 II . That the Planning Board recommend and hereby
14 does recommend to the Town Board that , except as
15 specifically provided in this resolution , the Town Board
16 delegate to the Planning Board all review and consideration
17 of approval of final site plans , including drainage plans ,
18 pursuant. to Paragraph 8 of the February 26 , 1973 , Town
19 Board Resolution establishing a Multiple Residence District
20 and a cluster development therein on Honness Lane .
21 III . That the Planning Board recommend and hereby does
22 recommend to the Town Board that the following
23 modifications to the noted sections of the February 26 ,
24 1973 , Town Board Resolution establishing a Multiple
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 80
1 Residence District and a Cluster Development therein on
2 Honness Lane , such District also known as Eastwood Commons ,
3 be made :
4 4 . B . ( 2 ) . The developer , at his own expense , shall
5 construct a sidewalk and bicycle path from the Multiple
6 Residence District as established in 1973 to the East
7 Ithaca Recreation Way on the former Lehigh Valley Railroad
8 right sof - way .
9 4 . C . ( 1 ) . The requirement of approval by the Tompkins
10 County Highway Department and the New York State Department
11 of Transportation of curb cuts and drainage surface and
12 subsurface waters from the site is to be waived , pending
13 concurrence of these agencies as to the proposed
14 designation of the Planning Board as Lead Agency for Site
15 Plan and Subdivision Approval .
16 4 . C . ( 2 ) . The requirement of approval of the Water
17 and Sewer Plan for the Project by the Tompkins County
18 Health Department shall remain a condition of final site
19 plan approval . The requirement of approval of the Water
20 and Sewer Plan for the Project by the Town Board is to be
21 waived .
22 4 . D . ( 1 ) . The requirement of approval of the drainage
23 plan by the Town Board is to be waived . The drainage plan
24 accompanying the final site plan shall be approved by the
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 81
1 Planning Board and the Town Engineer .
2 6 . ( b ) . The requirement that such units shall be
3 built in clusters not exceeding four such units in each
4 cluster shall be modified to permit a maximum of six units
5 in each cluster .
6 7 . ( c ) . The requirement of final site plan approval
7 for each phase by the Town Board shall be waived and shall
8 be modified to require final site plan approval by the
S
9 Planning Board .
10 IV . That the Planning Board further recommend and
11 hereby does further recommend to the Town Board that the
12 declaration of covenants , conditions , and restrictions for
13 Phase III of Eastwood Commons be subject to approval by the
14 Town Board .
15 V . In the event that the modifications of the
16 February 26 , 1973 , Town Board Resolution as hereinabove set
17 forth are accepted by the Town Board , the Planning Board
18 will proceed with review of the final site plan and the
• 19 subdivision plan and will consider approvals thereof , in
20 accordance with the Town of Ithaca Subdivision Regulations
21 as . adopted by the Town Board on March 2 , 1984 , in addition
I
22 to which the following conditions shall be part of such
23 Final Site Plan and Subdivision Approval :
24 1 . Concurrence by the potentially - involved agencies
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 82
1 cited herein as to the designation of the Planning Board as
2 Lead Agency for environmental review of the Final Site Plan
3 and the Subdivison Plan .
4 MR . KLEIN : One other thing , I think Bob was
5 perhaps getting at this thing in some respect that has been
• 6 like a sketch review , I mean , conditions for development in
7 that t- hey ' ve got some idea of what they want to do and they
8 bounce it off us to get our reaction . I think this has
9 been a nice presentation . It ' s been very well developed ,
10 better than what we normally see for a preliminary review ,
11 but so the developer leaves with a sense of the Board and
12 I ' d just like to throw out that maybe we should give
+0
13 Mr . Schickel , what the sense of the Board is asAwhere to we
14 feel this proposal - -
15 MS . GRIGOROV : I do bear in mind these
16 developments have always been pretty innovative , turn out
17 very well . It ' s got to be better than it seems .
18 CHAIRMAN MAY : I do think you have heard
. 19 considerable concern from both - - some of your residents ,
20 some local neighbors and also from the Board on it . And
21 so , you may want to consider whether or not you wish to
22 make some changes on it prior to your coming back for site
23 plan review .
24 MR . SCHICKEL : It represents right now our
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 83
1 considerable judgment after many months of work , so I mean ,
2 I have heard what you ' ve said . I mean , if somebody says ,
3 " I don ' t like it , " somebody says they don ' t like it . I
4 mean , I guess I need a little more guidance from you . I
5 mean , I have heard things but , you know , you ' re the
6 deciding body and I feel that a good case can be made for
7 just the way it is .
8 Let me just review what I ' ve seen . One is that
9 it hasn ' t - - in terms of the overall pattern , the road , the
10 access? the density , for drainage , there ' s been no change .
11 The necessary tools which show how the drainage would be
12 allocated , we have followed .
13 CHAIRMAN MAY , You have made a change in
14 drainage . You have changed the size of the pipe and amount
15 of impervious surface . And until such time you are
16 actually able to state what the difference is , I wouldn ' t
17 accept that statement .
18 MR . SCHICKEL : The change in the size of pipe ,
i g p p
I .
19 that was something that I didn ' t expect to be used against
20 me . In other words ? I did it just as a generous thing .
21 CHAIRMAN MAY : I think you did it wisely , just
22 from looking at this .
23 MR . SCHICKEL : I didn ' t do it because I thought
24 it was inadequate pipe . It ' s just in looking in the future
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 84
1 and knowing the concern of neighbors , I wanted to be
2 absolutely certain that they would have absolutely no
3 reason to be unhappy with it . That ' s why I redid it . I ' ll
4 change it back if that was so on that score .
5 Now , the other things , in other words , the
• 6 drainage we have followed the plan as it was approved , but
7 you want a calculation on that , I think that ' s a fair
8 statement . In some way , this picks it up and carries it
9 away even more effectively than the other because you don ' t
10 have free water just running as much as the catch basins
11 and so forth . But you ' ve given me something , Monte , that
12 is concrete and I can deal with it and I need any other
13 concrete suggestions you might have .
14 CHAIRMAN MAY , Well , I think another definite
15 concern is the distance between the buildings . The fact
16 that you ' re going to be looking at a wall of garages there
17 on the one hand and site distance through those buildings
18 is going to be just next to impossible .
19 MR . SCHICKEL : To what ?
20 CHAIRMAN MAY : Next to impossible .
21 MS . GRIGOROV : What ?
22 CHAIRMAN MAY : To look through those buildings .
23 MP. . SCHICKEL : There is a sense of enclosure
24 here . This along the road , you drive into kind of a
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 85
1 courtyard , so to speak , where the parking is . It isn ' t
2 like a wall of buildings . It spaces it out , it ' s outdoor
3 spaces that are created and these buildings are - - some of
4 them are 20 feet apart . I mean , _you know , if you ' re saying
5 you won ' t accept the garages in the front , that would be
6 the end of the plan . I mean , that ' s basic to it . I think
7 it ' s a need of a combination of facilities here that is
8 going to be very attractive . But , you know , it needs to be
9 understood three dimensionally .
10 CHAIRMAN MAY : One of the things that you ' ve
11 done , correct me if I am wrong , you ' ve got all your
12 elevations , but you don ' t ever have an elevation of looking
13 at the garage or looking at a building - -
14 MR . KLEIN : Or looking at the whole street .
15 CHAIRMAN MAY * I think your architect did that
16 for a very good reason ? I really do .
17 MR . SCHICKEL : We ' re showing you right here
18 ( indicating ) .
19 CHAIRMAN MAY : No . You don ' t have an elevation
20 from the street looking at the garage in and I - -
21 MR . SCHICKEL : We can supply that .
22 CHAIRMAN MAY : That ' s one of the things that
23 would need to be done in my opinion .
24 MR . KLEIN : Basically - - pull up that section ,
Town of Ithaca Planning Hoard 86
1 that side elevation again . If you project the peak of the
2 garage towards the town house , you know , it ' s really about
3 a second window sill and , you know , I think that ' s kind of
4 your perspective of the street . What you ' re really going
5 to see is clusters of three garages . It will actually look
6 like ranch houses in there and they ' re going to be
7 obscuring the vision of the town house .
8 CHAIRMAN MAY : You lost all detail of the town
9 houses including probably most of the vegetation .
10 MS . GRIGOROV : What do you mean lost it ?
• 11 CHAIRMAN MAY : It ' s going to be behind - -
12 MS . GRIGOROV : The people that live there will
13 enjoy it .
14 CHAIRMAN MAY : It means you wouldn ' t see - -
15 MS . GRIGOROV : It means they will have privacy
16 there .
17 MR . SCHICKEL : These are design. questions I
18 really think in the end . You could simply see our work
19 wherever it is and I would be happy to have you look and be
20 glad to show you slides and pictures or whatever . You can
21 look at: anything that we ' ve built and I can show you lots
22 of projects right here in Ithaca and around the County .
23 We care about the country . We care about the
24 design . We are not going to be doing something that is
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 87
1 just grossly unnecessary . It ' s a design question . I
2 mean - -
3 MS . GRIGOROV : The other houses you design , I
4 mean , they have privacy , things built up around them which
5 is an. advantage .
• 6 MR . KLEIN : It ' s somewhat ironic that actually
7 your pavilion is more from the vocabulary of Phase I
8 and II . The vocabulary of the pavilion looks a lot more
9 like Phase I and II than it looks like Phase III .
10 MR . SCHICKEL : Well , it ' s all the same .
11 MR . KLEIN_ : Well , in terms of a very long , you
12 know - -
13 MR . SCHICKEL : It ' s a different building , I
14 mean , it ' s - -
15 MR . KLEIN : The materials are the same ?
16 MR . SCHICKEL : This represents a very
17 conscientious ► carefully considered judgment by one of the
18 country ' s top designers , I am referring to my brother ,
19 Bill , who is without a doubt , he is an outstanding
20 designer . The proof is in his work .
21 There is the plan and whether you fully realize
22 what ' s going to happen in here from that plan , that plan
23 may be inadequate on our part , if we haven ' t given you the
. 24 elevation you want and that sort of thing , but I have
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 88
1 confidence in it . I have confidence it will be an
2 extremely attractive addition to the Town of Ithaca ' s
3 inventory . And I think it will meet the needs for a lot of
4 people that we haven ' t been able to meet . And I think
5 you ' ll find that people - - we do expect that this will
6 appeal to a slightly younger crowd .
7 In other words , we ' ve found in the villas , the
8 large villas , one story , that ' s responding to retirees . I
9 mean , to people who need a one level thinking , you know ,
10 about older years and things like that . And we ' ve had to
11 respond to that . The original units are two - story units .
12 We have units above garages and we feel that this is - -
13 it ' s not •a reflection , it ' s an improvement to get the
14 garage' s separated and to create that little planting area
15 between . It ' s going to be a very attractive nice thing and
16 also the space , I think in the front of the garage between
17 the garage and street is an enclosed space , if you ' re
18 looking at the planting plan .
19 MS . GRIGOROV : Oh , yes .
20 MR . SCHICKEL : It ' s hard to read , but basically ,
21 that ' s quite an enclosure created so you drive into kind of
22 an enclosed - - in other words , this planting along here ,
23 not trees , there ' s trees , too , but then there is planting
24 in between the trees to create - - when you come in here you
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 89
1 drive into this enclosed space and there are garages and
2 walkways and there are little smaller scale spaces and then
3 there is a penetration through the building .
4 If you ' ve ever been up - - well , you don ' t have
5 any of these . The best example would be in Europe where
6 you have buildings and then there ' s an archway and then
7 there ' s a narrow place that goes through and then you see
8 the hills over and that - - in other words , it ' s all part of
9 an experience . It doesn ' t mean it ' s just sitting there
10 looking out , it ' s a total experience .
11 We ' re very confident of the enduring value of
12 what we ' re proposing .
13 CHAIRMAN MAY : Bob , as you ' re looking at this ,
14 not only are we cutting down the right - of - way for the road
15 which you ' ve got a planting there right tight to the curb
16 and you ' re going to have some problems when you ' re plowing
17 snow . Either it ' s going to wipe out that vegetation or the
18 snow is going to kill it .
19 MR . SCHICKEL : What is the minimum width for a
20 Town road , minimum width ?
21 CHAIRMAN MAY : For the paved - -
22 MR . SCHICKEL : For the paved portion of the
23 road .
24 MS . BEENERS : They call for 20 feet and 4 foot
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 90
1 shoulders and here you have 23 .
2 MR . SCHICKEL : We have 28 feet to the outside .
3 And we basically - - you could pile the snow on each side
4 and right on the pavement and still have a side of the road
5 like for instance , on Honness Lane , which has a lot of
6 traffic , you got a ditch on each side .
7 CHAIRMAN MAY : We ' re not piling any snow up on
8 the shoulder . I mean , it ' s going into the ditch .
9 MR . SCHICKEL : My point is that - -
10 CHAIRMAN MAY : 20 foot plus two 4 foot
11 shoulders , that ' s what you made this paved area , 28 feet
12 and that would be the Town requirement , 20 foot , plus two 4
13 foot shoulders , paved shoulders .
14 MR . SCHICKEL : Well , you ' ve go it so . . . .
15 CHAIRMAN MAY : But right now looking at that ,
16 there really isn ' t anyplace to put the snow but to push it
17 on through and eventually you run - -
18 MR . SCHICKEL : You could put it on . the shoulder ,
19 I mean , this is a very important point if you really want a
20 nice looking development . I mean , the one thing that we
21 feel everyone on Wildflower who drives that road , we wish
22 the road could be narrower . We have plenty of parking off
23 road , you know , we prefer that it be narrower if it could
24 be .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 91
1 CHAIRMAN MAY : There ' s a lot of reasons for that
2 width , emergency vehicles and snow plows and what have you .
3 NIR . SCHICKEL : I respect that .
4 CHAIRMAN MAY . Okay ,
5 MS . BEENERS : Are some of your plantings in the
6 existing parts right up to the curb or are they set back ?
7 MR . SCHICKEL : No . I would say they are set
8 back a little , but you see here ? I mean , you got the road
9 and you really got three roads . In other words , you ' ve got
10 the parking and the road with it and we ' ve been fairly
11 lavish in getting cars totally off the road .
12 CHAIRMAN MAY : That ' s what we have to do , yes .
13 Any other questions you have specifically ? if
14 not , why - -
15 MR . SCHICKEL : Are you telling me - - I am having
16 a hard time reading you . . Are you telling me you won ' t
17 accept the garages ?
18 CHAIRMAN MAY : I would say right at the moment ,
19 I am not happy with the garages at all . Until you can
20 convince me or show me they are going to look nice - -
21 MR . SCHICKEL : I think I can convince you they
22 are going to look nice .
23 CHAIRMAN MAY : I am not saying I wouldn ' t accept
24 a garage , but this presentation , I guess I would say that .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 92
1 But , you know , that wouldn ' t be fair without giving an
2 opportunity - -
3 MR . SCHICKEL : But you have given me the - - yes ,
4 it will look nice .
5 CHAIRMAN 14AY : Anything else ?
6 MR . SCHICKEL : Well , I was hoping very much that
7 you could approve that one building in Phase II because
8 that - - we have a unit sold . I am very anxious to get it
9 started immediately .
10 MR . KENERSON : You ' re talking about 33 ?
11 MS . GRIGOROV : Is this an addition to - -
12 MS . BEENERS : It ' s a recommendation .
13 CHAIRMAN MAY : This would have to be a
14 recommendation to the Town Board .
15 MR . SCHICKEL : Do whatever you have to do on
16 that . That building will come under Phase II all the way .
17 MR . KLEIN : What is the change ?
18 MR . SCHICKEL : Really no change .
19 CHAIRMAN MAY : It ' s in Phase III .
20 MR . SCHICKEL : No , it ' s in Phase II .
21 CHAIRMAN MAY : We just said here ' s the line .
22 Here it is ( indicating ) . The line is going through , so
23 that ' s III right , John ? Isn ' t that what we just said or
24 did I miss something ?
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 93
1 MR . BARNEY : Let ' s backtrack for a moment . I
2 think you ' re right , Monte , he ' s in Phase III . In that ,
3 correct me if I am wrong , Phase II went around - -
4 MR . SCHICKEL : It ' s an extension of Phase I .
5 MR . BARNEY : What Norbert is saying , the style
6 and character of the building is where it follows on what
7 has been in other areas .
8 MR . SCHICKEL : It ' s going to come under the
9 declarations of the present units , and it ' s going to be on
10 the utilities , and it ' s going to be in that location and
11 this is a different association and a different - - just
12 different .
13 MR . BARNEY : Maybe . No question , you ' re right ,
14 Monte , Phase I , II are these and this is Phase - - you
15 didn ' t make a map . It ' s based on information you brought
16 into
- -
17 MR . SCHICKEL : It ' s an extension . It ' s the last
18 building of the present - -
19 CHAIRMAN MAY : Well , number one , if this is to
20 be approved , then I mean , Harwick Road has to be built .
21 MR . SCHICKEL : No .
22 CHAIRMAN MAY : I would not approve it then
. 23 personally . The frontage on it is Harwick Road .
24 MR . SCHICKEL : The road comes right here . it
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 94
1 was always intended that that driveway would serve this
2 cluster and we built this building and this building to
3 follow , That driveway is already in place and the
4 utilities are all there . I mean , it doesn ' t make sense to
5 build that road . This road will follow as soon as we ' re
6 dealing with this , but I mean , I think it ' s not - -
7 CHAIRMAN MAY : I state that road was part of the
8 rest of the development . The intent was to have that there
9 for emergency access and 'for the last four , five years ,
10 you ' ve been plowing snow down on it and blocking it off .
11 We talked about that on a couple occasions .
12 NIR . SCHICKEL : It should be kept feasible .
13 CHAIRMAN MAY : But it hasn ' t been .
14 MR . SCHICKEL : Normally , it hasn ' t been , but
15 sometimes the Town. of Ithaca pushes snow there .
16 CHAIRMAN MAY : It ' s not the Town of Ithaca , come
17 on . I would be absolutely firm in saying I would not agree
18 to 33 without the road being - -
• 19 MS . GRIGOROV : It ' s not near that road .
20 MR . SCHICKEL : You ' re putting, a terrible burden
21 on me .
Ij 22 CHAIRMAN MAY : It ' s there ( indicating ) .
23 MR . KLEIN : It shares a common drive .
24 MR . SCHICKEL : Only one has access now then this
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 95
1 building would have it , too . It ' s the same identical
2 driveway . It ' s identical . This building is in place and
3 that ' s the driveway into it .
4 MS . GRIGOROV : This is proposed , right ?
5 CHAIRMAN MAY : No . This is proposed . It does
6 have a common driveway , but this road should have been
7 completed prior to that .
8 MR . SCHICKEL : You ' re shifting lot 33 , which is
9 really Phase II . You ' re changing the map . Really , you ' re
10 making lot 33 a part of Phase III or part of - -
. 11 CHAIRMAN MAY : That ' s what he is proposing .
12 MS . GRIGOROV : You ' d end up with more units
13 then .
14 MR . SCHICKEL : I an, proposing . I didn ' t even - -
15 to be honest with you , I didn ' t even know that wouldn ' t be
16 acceptable just because I understood that it was part of
17 that cluster , but Susan pointed out to me that this was
18 defined , it needed to have that , but I would say that I ' m
19 asking that this be approved , but it ' s the last building of
20 this thing and we need to get it done . I ' ve got. a unit
21 sold . People are waiting for us to start and there ' s no
22 chance with the time frame you ' re talking about to do that .
23 CHAIRMAN MAY : But I would say that the road
24 needs to be built also and should have been built prior to
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 96
1 now .
2 MR . SCHICKEL : You ' re placing that condition on
3 me at this point ?
4 CHAIRMAN MAY . No . I think this is in
5 Phase III , so , that ' s still within the right of - -
6 MR , SCHICKEL : Like I said , I am going to build
7 the road in due course . It ' s a large expenditure and it ' s
8 something that ' s going to be coming and it ' s obviously what
9 this whole request on Phase III is about . And I think we
10 have met every commitment that we ' ve made and I ' m asking
11 that that building be approved . I mean , we haven ' t moved
12 it . It ' s just exactly - - it would place a very large
13 burden on me if you would refuse to approve that building
14 or make it contingent on building the road . We ' re going to
15 build the road in due course and that ' s what we always
16 represented , that we would do it , was my understanding .
17 We ' ve got, approval every step of the way and I
18 never had any , at any point , committed ourselves to do
19 anything different than what we ' ve done and we ' ve never
20 been asked to do anything different than what we ' ve done .
21 I mean , this access right now to this building , there ' s
22 sewer and water , all the utilities are there .
All we ' re saying is we want to be able to et a
23 1 y g 9
24 building permit and go ahead and build that building .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 97
1 MS . GRIGOROV : How does that leave us for total
2 units ? Does that add four more units to the total you were
3 figuring ?
4 MS . BEENERS : That would still be withinthat
5 total figure .
• 6 MS . GRIGOROV : It ' s still within ?
7 MS . BEENERS : It would be within the 176 units
8 originally approved .
9 MR . SCHICKEL : We were counting that building
10 in .
11 MS . GRIGOROV : Oh , you were ?
12 MR . SCHICKEL : We would hope that you would
13 consider that whatever the Planning Board needs to do on
14 that tonight .
15 CHAIRMAN MAY : Susan , you ' re saying that there
16 would be a total of 76 units in Phase9I and II ?
17 MR , SCHICKEL : When that building is completed ,
18 there will be 76 units in the first two phases , 76 units .
19 CHAIRMAN MAY : What was approved in Phase II ?
20 MS . BEENERS : Well , 11 through 25 , so that ' s
21 what - -
I
22 MR . SCHICKEL : Well , we didn ' t have a
Y
23 building - -
/r 24 MS . BEENERS : - - 51 units , I think .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 98
0
1 MR . SCHICKEL : Those were four - unit buildings .
2 CHAIRMAN MAY : They were originally approved as
3 four units . Some of them were built as two , but there was
4 no approval on lot 33 given as part of Phase II ?
5 MS . BEENERS : Correct .
6 MS . GRIGOROV : Where ' s the 15 feet between the
7 buildings ? This is only 15 feet here between the new
8 building here .
9 MR . RUE : 35 .
10 MS . BEENERS : What I am proposing here is that
11 you waive the distance between the building so that because
12 this design is for this building , it is similar to what
13 they ' re proposing for Phase III with the courtyard and the
14 garages , So , there ' s only 15 feet between the garages and
15 the main building .
16 MS . GRIGOROV : Oh .
17 MR . BARNEY : Say it _ once again , I am sorry , I
18 misunderstood . It ' s not the same format of units ?
19 MR . SCHICKEL : This map - -
20 CHAIRMAN MAY : It ' s a completely different
21 building . I don ' t know how it sits on the lot , I ' m not
22 sure .
i
23 MR . SCHICKEL : It sits - -
24 CHAIRNIAN MAY : No . Where it sits on the lot
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 99
1 lines we ' re showing a sharp line here on this map and then
2 we ' ve got this and I don ' t know where it even sits on the
3 lot . I don ' t even know where the building sits .
4 MR . SCHICKEL : Well , this corner is back 30 feet
5 from the property line .
6 CHAIRMAN MAY : Well , that doesn ' t tell me
7 anything . There ' s no other dimension on there . That.
8 really doesn ' t tell us anything .
9 MR . SCHICKEL : You have to scale it .
10 CHAIRMAN MAY : Well , I guess in all truth , there
11 isn ' t any way it would be appropriate for us to take action
12 on it . Anyway , that information isn ' t complete enough . We
13 have to know where the thing is to be able to act on it .
14 MR . SCHICKEL : The building is 42 feet long and
15 15 feet: and the garage is 20 feet .
16 MR . RUE : That ' s 35 feet from the existing
17 building to the garage .
• 18 MR . KLEIN * That ' s Susan ' s number C ,
19 modification - - she ' s got modification of pertinent yard
20 requirements . The set back is what you ' re requesting ,
21 Monte , right ?
22 CHAIRMANMAY : That ' s right , but I don ' t know
1 23 whether there is enough room to do it even - -
24 MR . SCHICKEL : The building is well back from
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 100
1 the right - of - way .
2 CHAIRMAN MAY : Well , that ' s entirely a
3 possibility . It might be , but we certainly don ' t have
4 sufficient information there to know it is .
A
5 MR . SCHICKEL : If I put some dimensions on this ,
6 will that help you ?
7 CHAIRMAN MAY : I don ' t think that I would be
8 very comfortable with just sitting here putting dimensions
9 down unless we knew they were right .
10 MR . SCHICKEL : I will commit myself to
11 dimensions .
12 PIR . KLEIN : It looks like it ' s set back around
13 25 feet from the end of the road .
14 CHAIRMAN MAY : Are you satisfied with the
15 drawings ?
16 MR . BARNEY * Not really when it ' s an entirely
17 new design . If it was like the other - -
18 CHAIRMAN MAY : Anybody here feel we ought to
19 take action on it tonight ?
20 MR . SCHICKEL : Could I make one impassioned
21 plea ?
22 CHAIRMAN fIAY : You can make one impassioned
23 plea , but I think , you know , this is - - it ' s a really - -
24 it ' s out: of order . It ' s not sufficiently complete and we
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 101
1 should not - - we would be out of order .
2 MS . GRIGOROV : Is this for three - dwelling units
3 and the garage ?
4 MR . SCHICKEL : Three - dwelling units and garage .
5 MR , KLEIN : Three town houses basically make
6 town houses like new ones .
7 MR , BARNEY : This sketch plan , Norbert , I am not
8 sure that building is all on the property . Is the property
9 line running basically like this ?
10 CHAIRMAN MAY : John , you ' re bringing up a very
11 good point , really you can ' t tell . It looks like all those
12 garages are over the property line . And I can ' t accept
13 that even if I were happy with it anyway .
14 MS . GRIGOROV : Which property line is it. over ?
15 CHAIRMAN MAY : This one ( indicating ) .
16 MR . BARNEY : I am not sure you have a right to
• 17 construct the garage that ' s going to be made available to
18 someone else .
19 MR . SCHICKEL : No , it ' s not available to someone
20 else . Let me say , for instance , when we had deeded that
21 whole thing , we were still coming along and building
22 within - -
I
23 CHAIRMAN MAY : There is really insufficient
24 information for us to deal with properly and I am sorry ,
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 102
1 but that ' s - - we would be remiss in our duties if we were
2 to accept that .
3 MR . SCHICKEL : Okay .
4 MR . KLEIN * I don ' t care about the road as you
5 feel about it . I am satisfied with the driveway , but I
6 don ' t think we have sufficient information on the same plan
7 to approve it .
8 MR . SCHICKEL : What do you require in order
9 to - -
10 . CHAIRMAN MAY : Well , we ' ve got to have a map
11 that shows the property lines and locations of - -
12 MR . BARNEY * A map that outlines existing
13 property lines that show where this building is going to
14 go .
15 MR . SCHICKEL : I would say that to the extent .
16 it goes over the property lines , over to the area that ' s
17 already conveyed some sort of demonstration from either the
18 declaration or whatever governs here that they are clearly
19 right to do that or a consent or some sort of document from
'I
20 the resident association and again , they permit it
' 21 absolutely right to do that .
i
22 CHAIRMAN MAY : We want to know what the building
23 is
going to look like .
24 MR . SCHICKEL : We have a whole set of plans for
Town of Ithaca Planning Board 103
1 the building .
2 CHAIRMAN MAY : If that ' s what the building is
3 going to look like , that ' s fine . That will be fine .
+�, 4 The Town Board taking it , I don ' t think they ' ll do it .
J
:. 5 MR . BARNEY * The problem I guess I have , I think
6 they would have also , again , it goes back to the overall
7 problem that it ' s a change in - - I understand more so than
8 anybody else , you ' re going from a concept where the garage
9 itself is contained where there were units and garages all
10 integrated into one building to a different concept , you ' re
. 11 moving garages . What amounts to three units side by side ,
12 which may be a better design for whatever reason . It ' s not
13 a design not simply to what has been done throughout the - -
14 CHAIRMAN MAY : I think we ' re way over our time
15 here . Let ' s adjourn this meeting . We need to talk about
16 our South Hill member and I will try to get back to
17 everyone by telephone .
18 ( Adjourned at 10 : 27 PM )
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