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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB Minutes 1979-01-09 TOWN OF ITHACA PLANNING BOARD 4 � 3' WORK SESSION TUESDAY , JANUARY 9 , 1979 �r A Work Session meeting of the Town of Ithaca Planning Board was held on Tuesday , January 9 , 1979 , in the Town of Ithaca Town Hall , 126 East Seneca Street ( second floor ) , Ithaca , N . Y . , at 7 : 30 p . m . PRESENT : Chairman Henry Aron , Liese Bronfenbrenner , James Baker , Montgomery May , Carolyn Grigorov , Patrick Mackesey , Lawrence P . Fabbroni ( Town Engineer ) , Barbara Z . Restaino ( Planner ) . ALSO PRESENT : Fred G . Marcham , Mayor , Village of Cayuga Heights ; Trustee Ron Anderson ; Trustee David Allee ; Jack Rogers , Village Engineer ; Joel Tallmadge , WTKO , Chairman Aron called the work session to order at 7 : 45 p . m . DISCUSSION OF THE MATTER OF THE PROPOSED IVAR JONSON SUBDIVISION OFF TEXAS LANE , 9 LOTS - TOWN OF ITHACA , 4 LOTS VILLAGE OF CAYUGA HEIGHTS . Chairman Aron greeted the Mayor of the Village and the Trustees and thanked them for coming . Mr . Aron stated that he received a petion from the Texas Lane resi - dents at his home and noted that Supervisor Desch had also received a copy . Mr . Aron read the petition , dated January 1 , 1979 , as follows : O' " Currently there is a proposal to develop land between the end of Texas Lane ( Extended ) and Sienna Drive . We believe it would be a serious mistake to have the traffic from this development exit onto Texas Lane because of traffic considerations . At the present time it is often necessary to wait minutes and sometimes several minutes to exit from Texas Lane onto Triphammer Road . Additional cars . exiting from Texas Lane would worsen this . We believe this development would best be served by an exit to Sienna Drive . We request that the Town Board consider the development with an exit from Sienna Drive . Se specifically request that in no case should the board approve an exit of this development onto Texas Lane . " The Petition was signed by 43 Texas Lane residents . Mr . Aron stated that he is not an expert in traffic - - the Town Engineer , Mr . Fabbroni , is with a master ' s degree from Purdue University . By way of discussion , Mr . Aron said that if there are , say , 40 to 60 automobiles leaving onto Triphammer Road , and if they all leave at once , which could happen since there are approximately 29 houses and one could say 2 cars per house , that would be just about 60 automobiles , and then ® we add the 9 lots in the Town of Ithaca , 13 lots including the Village ® of Cayuga Heights , with , again , 2 cars per house , we would have 86 auto - mobiles , let us say 90 automobiles to contend with - - is that a major traffic problem ? Mr . Aron noted that Texas Lane is the proposed access way right now . He stated that if we go with Siena Drive , we will have a reverse situation , Plan,ning Board - 2 - January 9 , 1979 and another petition will arrive from the Siena Drive residents . ® Mrs . Bronfenbrenner pointed out that the problem is not one of petitions , it is that the Planning Board has given preliminary subdivision approval to the subdivision with a Texas Lane entrance . Mr . Fabbroni stated that it is difficult to comment just on the traffic aspect and make a recommendation on access because so many other things have come up in the discussions . One of the first was drainage to the rear lots in the Texas Lane area ; also , standing timber , in particular two rare old trees that were important to the neighborhood as a focal point ; also the " knoll " . The problem is , aside from the Siena Drive people want Texas Lane and the reverse , these other things began to complicate which access would work the best to maintain all these features . Mr . May stated that the two things that , really , the residents brought . to us , were drainage and traffic and the two were discussed in great detail . He said that Mr . Fabbroni made an analysis of the traffic impact and he convinced him ( May ) that it was not the problem that every - one thought it was . Mayor Marcham stated that the Village does not know how far the Planning Board of the Town has committed itself . . He said it appears you have committed yourself to preliminary subdivision approval . He asked how far the Board has committed itself to Mr . Jonson ' s subdivision ? ® Mr . Aron replied that the Board has committed itself to preliminary subdivision approval with many conditions . Mr . Fabbroni stated that preliminary subdivision approval is a committment to a proposed subdivision layout with topo map and drainage and roads and lots preliminarily laid out . Mr . Fabbroni read from his traffic report which was presented at the December 19 , 1978 , Planning Board Public Hearing on the consideration of preliminary subdivision approval , as follows : " If thirteen lots were eventually developed , the total projected traffic increase by worst projections would be 130 more cars a day , 13 cars per hour if all distributed over the highest 10 traffic hours of the day , or roughly one more car every five minutes . From a planning standpoint this is a minor addition to the traffic load of any street . Distribution of traffic is fairly uniform in the peak hours of travel in the morning and afternoon . It is safe to assume that a maximum of six additional cars will require access in any highest fifteen minute period of the day . Based on the above , traffic load is not an over - riding consideration when comparing Texas Lane and Sienna Drive access alternatives . From a blind planning viewpoint , an access from both streets would be beneficial to local circulations problems . However , given the public input and weighing that against the real necessity , one access is sufficient . It is only in times of tragedy , e . g . tornadoes or fires that the second access is as human a consideration as privacy , children in the streets , parks , etc . " Planning Board - 3 - January 9 , 1979 Mr . Fabbroni added that from an ideal point of view , the ideal access would be from both Texas Lane and Siena . ® Mr . Jack Rogers disagreed , pointing out the problems of traffic on Triphammer and Hanshaw . Mr . Fabbroni said the traffic runs about 10 , 000 on Triphammer and 5 , 000 to 6 , 000 on Hanshaw . Mr . Rogers noted , referring to the number of homes on Texas Lane that a 50% increase would be added to what is already there if 13 more homes are built . Mr . Fabbroni stated that this was a good point , but , Blackstone Avenue is not a perfect engineering feat . Mr . Anderson pointed out that in terms of getting on to Triphammer , both exits would be best . Mr . Allee was not sure . Mr . Rogers agreed that coming out on to Triphammer is a problem and added that if the access to the subdivision were to go out on to Siena you would run into less traffic . Mr . Allee said that the people in the 13 new homes would be better off going out on to Siena . Mr . Rogers stated that he would like to suggest another layout which he had drawn up . He said it involves an oval with no cul de sac and would preserve the park . He noted that there is some cut and fill , the grades are not bad , and there would be gravity flow for sewering . The proposal was passed around the table . There followed considerable give and take between Mr . Fabbroni and Mr . Anderson in re the layout of the proposed lots . Mr . Aron pointed out that Mr . Jonson owns 50 feet of land coming off the Texas Lane turnaround , and added that if he builds one or two houses he does not have to have Planning Board permission , does he ? Mr . Fabbroni said that that was correct . Mr . Fabbroni went on to say that if he went ahead on that basis , the Board would be in no position to have to approve what he forced it into - - but that is past news . Mr . May commented to Mr . Rogers that his plan is interesting and he noted that it ends up with a 300 ' lane , 20 feet in width . Mr . May added that there is never any way it could be dedicated as a Town or Village road . Mr . Rogers said , yes , by design . Mr . Fabbroni asked if the Village would issue permits on that kind of lane ? Mr . Rogers replied , yes - - we have some - - and cited Strawberry Lane as an example . Mr . Fabbroni said that under Town Law we have to give road access to every lot . Mr . Rogers said that he thought of the private lane approach because of the need for mutual cooperation approach used in the snowplowing between the Town and the Village on Texas Lane and so there could be the same sort of thing on Siena Drive . Mrs . Grigorov noted that Mr . Rogers ' plan shows 10 lots in the Town . Mrs . Bronfenbrenner asked if the people on a private lane hire there own snowplowing people ? Mr . Anderson said that they do . Mrs . Bronfen - brenner asked about fire protection . Mr . Anderson said that the Village Planning Board - 4 - January 9 , 1979 Fire Department takes care of Strawberry Lane just the same as any Village street . He noted that in the case of Strawberry Lane it is a little tricky backing out , but it is done . Mr . May thought that the problem would be with parties . Mr . Anderson said that the residents would have to have the same sort of self - regula- tion that the people on Strawberry Lane impose upon themselves . Mr . Anderson also noted that there would be a fire hydrant within 600 ' . Mrs . Grigorov asked if there were anything legal to make these residents cooperate with each other ? Mr . Mackesey answered , through community associations or , in a few places , where they are tied into by a deed reference . Mr . Aron asked where this lane funnels out to ? Mr . Rogers indicated Siena Drive to Blackstone . Mr . Anderson noted that the adoption of that plan ( indicating ) would bring the Board into a beehive with some other people . Mr . May said that the plan is interesting and added that he must say he was a little sorry that the Board had not seen it before , but realis - tically , he did not see it now being adopted . Mayor Marcham stated that the Village had made every effort to see Mr . Jonson and has been unable to get him to meet with them . There followed further discussion of the meaning of the preliminary ® approval . Mayor Marcham said that he did not want to put the Board on the spot , but it would seem that they ( Town and Village representatives ) were wasting their time . The question was asked - - what if Mr . Jonson likes this new plan ? Mr . Aron asked about the lane that Mr . Rogers drew on this map and asked if it starts in the Village of Cayuga Heights and extends into the Town - - or is the end the Village line ? Mr . Rogers said the proposed lane is all in the Village . Mr . Aron asked again if the Village does give building permits for homes on a 20 foot lane . Mr . Rogers stated that they do . Mayor Marcham pointed out that Mr . Jonson is developing plans , and , if the Village representatives had not come here tonight , and nothing happened , he would come before the Planning Board again and you would give advice and he would , perhaps , modify his plans . The Mayor asked if it would be appropriate for this Board ( Planning ) at this time to say - - we have seen another solution and we would like you ( Jonson ) to consider it immediately and see how it suits your interests in develo - ping . Mayor Marcham added that it would be ridiculous to sit back now and wait until he brings everything in before saying such a thing . Mr . Aron stated that he saw no problem with that himself - - to have Mr . Jonson come in and talk with the Board on this , and with the Village representatives present also . Mr . May felt that it would be appropriate to have him come in and talk with Mr . Fabbroni and not bring it necessarily to the Board at that time - - it would not be necessary to reconvene the Board for that . Mrs . Bronfenbrenner pointed out that the Board does not have the Planning Board - 5 - January 9 , 1979 option to throw out the preliminary approval completely . Mr . Aron asked if Mr . Fabbroni would call Mr . Jonson . He said he would most certainly do so . Mr . Fabbroni asked if the Village would be receptive to this kind of lot layout given all the many problems we have faced in this proposal ? Mayor Marcham replied that he had not seen it , but if Mr . Rogers drew it up , he is sure it is okay . Mr . Anderson felt that it would be possible for Mr . Jonson to get an easement for sewer if he wanted to . Mr . Anderson commented on a gravity flow sewer system coming around both sides of that oval since the Village is very concerned about pumping situations . He noted that it would be cheaper to do it at once , not in steps . Mayor Marcham mentioned one issue recently alluded to is an urgency of coming to terms with Mr . Jonson because of financial committments . The Mayor felt that that is not a wise basis on which to give permission . Mr . Rogers said that Mr . Jonson has said that he was coming to the Town first and then the Village of Cayuga Heights and added that that is bad on his part or wrong on ours . Mr . Rogers said that he uses that as leverage - one against the other . Mr . Anderson noted that Mr . Jonson had said that it really did not make any difference to him whether he went out one exit or another - - Texas Lane or Siena Drive . Mr . Fabbroni commented that some of those lots on the new approach are not 15 , 000 square feet - - lot # 5 is certainly not . Mr . Fabbroni went on to say that he thought that what will interest Mr . Jonson is the seven lots in the Village and not four , but he would have to purchase more land . Mr . Aron stated that he thinks it is important for municipalities to get together , and he said that he believed the Board did invite the Village to both meetings on December 5th and 19th . Mayor Marcham replied that that was correct . Mr . May added that it would cut down on animosity between the Town and the Village people . Mr . Fabbroni stated , moving off the subject somewhat but nonetheless related , that he had spoken to Mr . Rogers in the middle of last winter about field surveys for the early summer . He stated that he has developed general mapping on three main drainage areas in the northeast and that in the next few months will finalize the data and draw a few conclusions . He said that if nothing else , it will give a picture of where the water comes from . There followed a brief discussion of the pond concept at DeWitt Junior High School . The new traffic counters that Mr . Fabbroni now has were also dis - cussed briefly . Mr . Fabbroni said that the traffic data will be forth - coming . Mr . Fabbroni thanked the Village very much for their help over the years when the Town did not have counters . . Turning lanes coming south on North Triphammer into Hanshaw - - not in the Village - was discussed briefly also on a give and take basis of ideas . Planning Board - 6 - January 9 , 1979 ADJOURNMENT The Planning Board Work Session of January 9 , 1979 , was closed at 9 : 40 p . m . The Town and Village representatives present all felt that the evening had been well spent . Respectfully submitted , Nancy M . Fuller , Secretary . the flower basket Dec . 28 1978 105 DRYDEN ROAD ITHACA, NEW YORK 14850 607 - 272-5672 FLOWERS & PLANTS SENT WORLD WIDE Jonathan G . Bradley 1. 05 Dryden Ed . Ithaca , New York 14850 Mr . Henry Aron Town of Ithaca 126 E . SL;6neca St . Ithaca , New York 14850 i Dear Mr . Aron : i It is with much r4gret that I must give up my appointment to the Town Planning Board . Due to unforsene changes I will no longer be a resident of the Town of Ithaca , l effective the firt of January . I hope that the work of the planning board will continue in the fine manor that it has in the past . 160 A; `` ! January 1 , 197 .9 Town' Planning Board Town . of : Ithaca Ithaca , - - New York Dear Board 'embers i Currently there - is a proposal to develop land between the. end ' of Texas - Lane ,' ( Extended;) and Sienna' Drive We . : beIIeve - At- would, be -- a •' serious - tistake. . to have , the ` traffic from this development- exit- . onto , Texas- Lane . because of traffic . c;onsiderations , : . A:t t_he> .presen,t �t. ime� _it is often : necessary . "-to1' "wait minute' " sand ' soteti ffie;s- - several . rdinut .es to exit.. fromTexas ,Lane . ont %o ' Tri •phammer' 'Road ; Additional cars : e�xi ting - from Texas Lane '-' would :rworsen t,hi s'. ` We: be � -•this'% deve_lopment would best be served by an- e n- - exi- t to Sienna - Drive We regbes-t - that the Town- Planning ' Boar' d consider -the development with ` an - exit from . Sienna - Drive : We , specifically . request - that - in , no - case ` should the : : board: approve an exit . of this .development .ont'6 ,k _ Texas . Lane :; ' ; Yours 'since-re � ` • :moi . � / �C-��� . U ' Lltrk J Al 3,c? M 110 ol IeOVIV t: t ti 49 14 CJ Ic Ali ! G , 43 Y TOWN OF iTUACA 126 EAST SENECA STREET ITHACA, NEW YORK 14850 January 4 , 1979 Hon . F . G . Marcham , Mayor Village of Cayuga Heights 836 Hanshaw Road Ithaca , NY 14850 Dear Mr . Mayor - Thank ayor -Thank you for your letter of December 20 , 1978 in reference to the proposed Ivar Jonson subdivision off Texas Lane , The Town of Ithaca Planning Board will be meeting on January 9 , 1979 , at 7 : 30 p . m , in the Town Hall , second floor , 126 East Seneca Street , Ithaca , NY . As you can see from the enclosed agenda , we have set aside the entire meeting as a working session . We would be most pleased to have you and any part of your Board attend and we hereby extend to you our most cordial invitation . Yours very truly LOY Henry Aron , Chairman Planning Board of enclosure k . VILLAGE OF CAYUGA HEIGHTS Office Hours 836 HANSHAW ROAD Telephone ' 9 A M. - 4 P.M. ITHACA, N.Y. 14850 607457=1238 December 20 , 1978 :d �w 1978 Mr . Henry. Aron TOWN OF ITHAC4 Acting -Chairman _ Planning.^ Board _ . Town of Ithaca 126 E . Seneca' - St . Ithaca , N . Y . 14850 Dear Mr . Aron : You were right when you said to Shailer ' Philbrick that you had invited our Board to meet with yours and had suggested that we appoint, a commit- tee of four to survey the proposed new development . Our opinion was that the appointment of the committee was not - appropriate and that , we should go, forward by way of Shaffer Philbrick and Ron . Anderson , both of whom had - interested themselves deeply in the problem and who had special knowledge - of the area. Our mode of procedure looked towards a prelimin - ary meeting with Mr . Johnson before we approached your Board . As you know , our attempts to meet with him have failed despite thefact that we have prepared some substantial alternatives to his development program , think it wise for . our Board , or such part of it as I can assemble , ' to meet with yours and I find that the first week of January may well prove the best period in which to arrange a meeting : Please let me know , if such a meeting would be convenient to your group and offer me some alter native times . _. Yours sincerely , F . G . Marchain , Mayor Village _ of Cayuga Heights FGM : ak . ~ f VILLAGE OF CAYUGA HEIGHTS Office Hours 836 HANSHAW ROAD � � (1`elep qne 9 A M. - 4 P.M. ITHACA, N .Y. 14850 ��pp 6 ig TpWN 9 OF ITH January 10 , 1979 Mr . Henry Aron , Chairman Town of Ithaca Planning , Board 126 East Seneca Street Ithaca , New York 14850 Dear Henry : Let me say again how grateful we are for the opportunity to attend your meeting Fast night . I shall be grateful if we may learn what Mr . Johnson ' s response is to the proposal Mr . Rogers offered . From our point of view it would be ideal if it were possible to discuss with Mr . Johnson and with your Board the possibility for development inherent in this plan and perhaps one or two other proposals that may come to the surface in the course of our discussions . Yours sincerely , C . n l F . G . Marcham , Mayor Village of Cayuga Heights .1 I all. 1. • ' t 40 1 Wednesday , January 10, 1979 YFHACA JOURNAL 17 lettiers - to the journal Planning . board appears to accommodate builder Editor, The Journal : I It appears .that there has been a . 4 distortion .of the facts concerning 1 Texas Lane residents and the pro=. ! posed development of Ivar Johnson . 1 Mr . !- Johnson stated at the Town Planning Board meeting of Dec . 19, 1978 , that residents had expressed a 'desire for Texas . Lane to be used for access to his development and that . I the 'street ' not go through to Siena Drive. It should be made clear. that ! the petition was — initiated and circulated by the residenfs of Texas Y Lane themselves and not by Ivar :4 1 Johnson as was implied by Mr. John- son at the meeting and announced on the . radio news program the follow- . ing day. In fact, Mr. Johnson has. at no time ! questioned the residents about their ti desires .either - by - petition or any other manner. Texas Lane residents . feel very strongly that this street : should under no circumstances be extended . The traffic problem is already horrendous and it is felt that Mr . Johnson could find an alter- ' lter- ' F native route, without making . a . ' through street, which would , serve his development more efficiently for ! everyone - concerned . Mr. Johnson has stated that ' his main reason for using Texas Lane is that the well- developed trees and shrubbery would provide a pleasing entrance to his development. It appears that there is little concern for traffic but much concern for Mr. Johnson 's com- mercial success . I feel strongly that;. • alternative *routes ' have not been adequately.discussed , but rather that. the Town Planning Board has . tried to accommodate, Mr. Johnson .com_ pletely. - Lorraine B . Chase y 210 Texas Lane