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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB Minutes 1974-09-17 • TOWN OF ITHACA PLANNING BOARD REGULAR MEETING SEPTEMBER 17 , 1974 A regular meeting of the Planning Board of the Town of Ithaca was held on the 17th day of September , 1974 , in the Town Offices , at 108 E . Green St . , Ithaca , N . Y . , at 7030 p . m . Because of the number of citizens present for this meeting - - apprc% imately 100 in number - - the Chairwoman declared that the meeting would be moved to the Common Council Chambers of the City of Ithaca , 108 E . Green St . , 3rd Floor , Main Building , PRESENT : Chairwoman Barbara Holcomb , Robert Scannell , Robert Christianson , Sam Slack , Maurice Harris , Lawrence Fabbroni ( Planning Engineer/ Zoning Officer ) , Reynolds Metz (Assistant Zoning Officer ) . ABSENT : Arnold Albrecht , Jack Lowe , Daniel Baker , ALSO PRESENT : Mr . Otto Schoenfeld , Mr . Harry Hamilton (Attorney for Mr . Schoenfeld ) , Mr . Frank Liguori ( County Planning Commissioner ) , Mr . Harry Missirian ( County Planning Dept . ) , Bob Bruce ( County Board of Representatives ) , Alan Goodman ( reporter Ithaca Journal ) , Radio person - nel , and approximately 100 citizens . The Chair declared the Meeting opened at 7 : 55 p . m . SCHOENFELD DEVELOPMENT NORTH OF BURLEIGH DRIVE - --PRELIMINARY APPROVAL DISCUSSION Mrs . Holcomb announced that in view of the time spent to move the meeting to Common Council Chambers and having discussed the matter with Mr . Harry Hamilton , Attorney for Mr . Schoenfeld , and the members of the Planning Board , the discussion of preliminary approval for Mr . Schoen- feld ° s development of approximately 18 acres with 41 units north of Burleigh Drive would be adjourned to September 24 , 1974 , at 7 : 30 p . m . in the . Town of Ithaca Offices , AREA BEAUTIFICATION COUNCIL Mrs . Holcomb announced that she had received a note from Mr . Walter Schwan , Town Supervisor , stating that he had received a letter from Mrs . Robert S . Boothroyd of the Area Beautification Council asking for names of persons who could represent the Town of Ithaca on the Area Beautification Council . No names were suggested for this Council at this meeting . 8 : 00 P . M . - DISCUSSION WITH MR . FRANK LIGUORI ? COUNTY PLANNING COMMIS SIONER , OF THE PROPOSED CIRCUMFERENTIAL ROAD PROPOSED BY THE COUNTY PLANNING DEPARTMENT Mrs . Holcomb stated that Mr . Frank Liguori was present to discuss the feasibility report prepared by Mr . John MacNeil , dated August 1974 . She pointed out that this is not a Public Hearing , but a meeting of the Planning Board , open to the public , at which the Planning Board will receive information from and ask questions of Mr . Liguori . She stated that if. a point is reached where the Planning Board members have all their questions answered , the meeting may be opened to questions from ' Town of Ithaca Planning Board - 2 - September 17 , 1974 • the citizens present . She said that the Report under discussion at this meeting is merely a proposal . It needs to be discussed . It is not final in any way . It does focus on discussions that have been • going on for many years , Mrs . Holcomb then turned the meeting over to Mr . Liguori , Mr . Liguori stated that he did not hope to give the Planning Board members the complete information on the total crosstown road proposal within the time we have tonight . He hoped to get across the ° concept ® . He stated that there will be plenty of time for meetings with interested groups or citizens . For example , a meeting has already been arranged with the Northeast Civic Association for October 16th at the Northeast School . He stated that the entire Ithaca area is experiencing growth , how- ever , it would not be considered rapid growth . The existing roads for moving people from one place to another are becoming inadequate and many are already inadequate . The road systems have not kept pace with the growing number of people and the growing amount of traffic . All traffic funnels into the City of Ithaca like spokes of a wheel . Many are narrow , steep and winding . Individual plans have been proposed over the years . None have been successful . The only major improvement is really Route 13 , Route 13 functions very nicely as part of the loop system . The crosstown proposal fits into this loop system very well the County thinks , not perfectly , but well enough . Warren Road is a very high capacity road . North and South . At present Warren Road into Forest Home into Judd Falls and then into Slaterville Rd . functions as a desire line . If there were such a road as Burns Road , say situated where Pine Tree Road runs into Slaterville Rd . , then Coddington Rd . would be connected to this loop concept . If such a road as Stone Quarry Rd . were closer to NCR and Ithaca College and Morse Chain , it would serve as a part of the loop road too . Mr . Liguori stated that the Feasibility Study is now complete . Now we have something to study and work with . It will bring the whole mat- ter out into the open . He wanted to discuss the concept this evening . The individual alignments will be discussed later . He saw a danger in getting hung up on particular details . There is a possibility of using existing roads , i . e . , Warren Rd . could function as part of the concept . It already does . Maybe it should continue to do so . We could also do nothing . However , this new concept provides major solutions to many problems . It makes it unnecessary to rebuild present roads . An Origination and Destination ( 0 & D ) Study has not been done . We have been criticized for this . Some people say that O & D studies are absolu • tely necessary . Mr . Missirian will discuss the matter of 0 & D studies , and the rationale for their not being taken . There will be some done . In 1970 a very deep 0 & D Study was undertaken by New York State DOT . We will have these results hopefully and they will be plugged into this Study . This concept evolved over many years of working with the Town of Ithaca , Cornell , Ithaca College and major businesses . Mr . Liguori stated emphatically that Mr . John MacNeil conducted his study independent of the County Planning Dept . , although some data was of necessity supplied by the County Planning Dept . Mr . Liguori now turned the discussion over to Mr . Harry Missirian . Mr . Missirian stated that a 1962 0 & D Study prepared by the DOT was not sufficient . Then in 1970 the NYS DOT conducted a very complete , . Town of Ithaca Planning Board � 3 - September 17 , 1974 study , which was very expensive . They had the complete cooperation of the County Planning Department . The results have been completed and they are on tapes . Prof . Meyberg of the Cornell University College of Engineering is in possession of these tapes . ® With the help of Mr . Fabbroni , Mr . Missirian presented for the Planning Board and the public a series of maps and plans of large size and color . He noted that those maps presented here are only a part of the entire series of maps and plans available to the public which are viewable at the County Planning Office at 128 East Buffalo Street . A brief description of the maps and plans presented is noted below : 1 . Two maps , one larger than the other , plotting the major em- ployers in Tompkins County dated 1972 . The three hills were clearly shown . The three hills have little connection between them . The only way to get to each hill is to go down into the City . Mr . Missirian said that there must be a better way . Destination areas were shown on maps . Parking spaces . 61000 parking spaces for Cornell University . 4 , 500 parking spaces for Ithaca College , Morse Chain , Therm , NCR , Ithaca Gun , etc . 2 . Existing Land®Use Map , e . g . , commercial in red . 3 . Zoning in Ithaca area , e . g . , Dryden residential in yellow , Cornell and I . C . in turquoise . 4 . New Construction and Landmarks Map . Scenic and historical places . Mr . Missirian stated that the County Planning Dept , has been sensitive to these areas and has tried to stay away from disturbing ® them , but has tried at the same time to open them up for visual experim ence from the road . 5 . Utilities Map . Mr . Missirian stated that the County has tried to be practical as to what a proposed road would do to existing utilitie . and proposed utilities , i . e . , the impact the circumferential road would have on these systems . 6 . Traffic Volumes Chart . Dated 1970 but Mr . Missirian said that they have more updated information . They have considered the question where do you live and where are you going ? 7 . Slopes and Soil Conditions Map , 8 . Sensitive Areas Map . i . e . , where borings might be required to determine what kind of soil has to be worked with in a given area . 9 . Cornell University Arboretum Plan . Mr . Missirian stated that $ 100000 . 00 was spent on this project . We have decided on a certain corridor because of this plan , We had suggested another corridor but we accepted Cornell ° s facts . Mr . Missirian stated that as far as the 0 & D study is concerned these tapes are available , however , he does not have them in the office . They are of a very sophisticated nature . He said that the County has ® added a lot of information to it . Mr . Missirian then turned the meeting back to Mr . Liguori . ' Town of Ithaca Planning Board - 4 - September 17 , 1974 Mr . Liguori stated that he was sure that the members of the Plan- ning Board realize that the Town of Ithaca plays a very large role in the development of this plan for a circumferential road . He pointed ® out that it is not just the " County ' s Plan " . He declared that the County Planning Office wants complete participation by the Town of Ithac Mr . Liguori then called upon Bob Bruce , the Town of Ithaca representa- tive on the County Board of Representatives . Mr . Bruce stated that as long as he has been on the County Board he has been on the County Planning and Works Committee . He stated that he used to be a biker - he is no longer a biker . It is not safe to bike in the Town of Ithaca . The problem of roads has been with us for many years . Cornell University has not cooperated . They will not give any- thing away in spite of the fact that they are a prime destination source for traffic in the Town of Ithaca and the City of Ithaca . We ( the County Board ) are concerned about roads like Warren , Pine Tree , Hanshaw , Anyplace we put the proposed road is going to impinge on somebody ' s interest - - even if we put it nowhere . The County Board is going to hold hearings on this matter . We are not going to hear it on an indi - vidual basis . It will be on a whole County concept . It is not an isolated problem . We are urging people to contact their County Reps . , . their Town Reps . , and work together . Talk to your neighbors also . Mr . Bruce then turned the meeting back to Mr . Liguori , Mr . Liguori stated that the County Planning Dept , is preparing graphics with various corridors laid out . They will soon be available to the various Boards and the public . Mrs . Holcomb asked if there were any questions from the Planning Board members for any of the three speakers . Mr . Robert Scannell pointed out that we have seen some very beauti - ful maps prepared before this feasibility study was done . He felt that the maps really have nothing to do with the proposal . He stated that the study done by Mr . MacNeil is a very poor one . He said that Mr . MacNeill has prepared a study from County plans e this is not what should be done by a good feasibility study . Mr . Scannell felt that the Study presented was not deep enough . Mr . Liguori referred to the leakage of the study into the newspa- pers prior to the actual issuance of the copies of the study to the various boards and the public . He stated that reporters were at a meeting that dealt with matters not full in scope . Mr . Liguori further stated that Mr . MacNeil ' s conclusions were reached independently . The County Planning Dept . did not author this plan . This is a concept . The specifics have not been decided as of now . We are asking you to agree with the concept . Mr . Bruce , speaking to Mr . Scannell , stated that he was very angry . He declared that Mr . Scannell was impugning the County Planning Dept . He added that there are only a limited number of alignments available . He told Mr . Scannell not to take issue with the study . Mr . Scannell stated that the problem is obvious - there is no question about the problem . He declared that he did not intend to be derogatory towards the planning staff . The problem has nothing to do with the present staff . He repeated that the study is based on the past . Feasibility studies should come up with some facts not what a lot of questions are . Mr . Sam Slack asked how the concept of a total loop road with Town of Ithaca Planning Board - 5 - September 17 , 1974 existing Route 13 a four - lane highway and the proposed loop road only two lane is compatible . Mr . Liguori explained the proposed road as a very modern two- lane ® road . 601 ROW or even an 80 ' ROW with 81 or 12 ' shoulders . It will be a controlled access road in that the Town of Ithaca would control where the major accesses are - such as access to new developments , major sub- divisions , institutions . It would not be open to every homeowner to each lot . He stated further that the County Planning Dept . did not envision that a four- lane highway is needed . There is nothing to indicate that one is needed at this time . Mr . Maurice Harris asked if drawings will be available indicating where these proposed corridors will go in terms of property owners . Mr . Liguori stated that these will eventually be available , but this is a very long way away . We have to have it accepted by the municipalities first . The idea has to be accepted first . Mr . Robert Christianson asked in connection with the 0 & D Study done by the State in 1970 if it were conducted in the summertime . Mr . Liguori said " NO " it was done in September and October as traffic from the student population is very heavy . " Mr . Lawrence Fabbroni asked Mr . Missir.ian to please point out the nodes " of development . Mr . Missirian stated that the County Planning Dept . has made extensive studies - dozens of studies . Air photos . They came up with five proposals out of these . Then we finally came up with one or two alternates . They took some things as a given . They. knew that Route 13 was going to be realigned in the Valley . The nodes on South Hill were determined to be Ithaca College , Morse Chain , NCR , Therm , residents on Coddington Road . A point was established just between Morse Chain and NCR . They had to limit themselves to a slope of 5 % , therefore , the route off South Hill to the Inlet Valley ended up at the entrance to Buttermilk . If they were to go South of Ithaca College they would have double the length of road because they start from a higher elevation and must double back half way down the hill . Another node was considered to be in the Ellis Hollow and Pine Tree Rd . area . This is a very desirable and growing node . The loop road pro - posal skirts Eastwood Commons . Another node is in the Northeast aw Village Green , Cayuga Heights , warren Road and three schools . The Department is not coming up with one proposal . There are 1 , 2 , 3 aiter - nate proposals . The County Planning Dept . has some they prefer . Mrs . Holcomb now asked if there were any further questions from the Planning Board . There were none . She then opened the meeting to ques- tions from the floor . Sabina Johnson , 10 - 1F Lansin A ts . East . I am from California . We say the more highways you ui , the more traffic you attract . What everyone is avoiding here is the use of mass transit . Mr . Liguori stated that there is a study in which the County Plan- ning Office is cooperating being done under a Federal Grant by Prof . Meyberg of the College of Engineering . This is a two year study on ® needs and methods for mass transit . Most of us have too high expecta- tions of what mass transit can do for us . Dennis Severance , 503 Warren Rd . You talk about the Cornell proposal and you bent the road to the West , Are you going with the Cornell Plan ? Mr . Liguori stated that Cornell and the Planning Office were working Town of Ithaca Planning Board September 17 , 1974 independently , Mrs . Holcomb stated that probably the origin for Cornell ° s concerns for the corridor that Mr . Missirian has referred to is that the Town of Ithaca put on their maps in 1968 a proposed road which Cornell was aware of . The Cornell Plantations area was being redesigned in the early 1970 ° s and because the Town of Ithaca plan was the only one they knew about they left a corridor which followed the proposed Town alignment . Mr . Severances What is wrong with the original proposal by the County showing the road bending to the east to meet Route 13 ? Mr . Liguori said that it was too much in the future probably and does not just meet the needs of the present . Mr . Liguori also pointed out the outboard and inboard roads listed in the MacNeil Report , David Gorman , 132 Muriel St . : Are you dealing with MacNeil ° s proposal or the County ' s ? No reply . Mr . Gorman referred to a letter from the DOT which has been purported to have been received stating that the DOT will not fund this proposal in any way . Mr . Bruce stated that the Count• cannot build even the bridge over Fall Creek . If the State will not and the County cannot , where does that leave us ? Mr . Liguori replied that in 1969 or early 1970 we signed an agree ment with the DOT to do a County wide transportation study . They did the 0 & D Study and that is all . We have said that we can wait no longer . We are sorry that they feel that they have not been involved in our plans . It is true that they have made no committment . It is also true that they have not lived up to their previous committment . Mrs . Doris , 404 Salem Dr . : Mrs . Doris expressed grave concern over the safety of the children in the area and especially as concerns Warren Rd . Mr . Liguori stated that they recognize this problem . They have not gotten into the details of this . They will study the problem before they set the final alignment . Margaret Oaksford , 203 Muriel St . : Were there any considerations in determining these corridors about the residential areas ? Has there been consideration given to established neighborhoods ? Mr . Missirian stated that he did not being the settlement maps which show housing and developments . They have tried to maintain the integrity of these exis - ting neighborhoods . So far we have a minimal of housing units to be displaced - 14 units of houses so far . 50 , 000 people are being served in a multi-million dollar project . They have density maps also at the County Offices , Mrs . Oaksford noted that new highways do change the complexion of neighborhoods . Mr . Missirian stated that the County is very sensitive to the needs of neighborhoods and the safety of the children . Robert Bruce : We are very concerned with what you are asking . We are concerned with serving the prople who live in this community without destroying the property of the people that we are serving , yet we are bound by engineering needs . Herbert Mahr , 103 Judd Falls Rd . s I am concerned with the sequence of • events . There has been a going back and forth between various institu- tions and the County Planning Board . Will there be a similar back and forth process for the public ? Will there be a time for proposals given and second , when will that happen? Mr . Bruce stated that the County Board has not called public hearings as yet . They will be called probably within the next month . The decision will not be looked at i Town of Ithaca Planning Board September 17 , 1974 before we have heard from the people in the community . • James C . King , 537 Warren Rd . : We are talking about two roads _ one for immediate use and another outside of it for the future problems . Mr . Liguori stated that we are talking about two concepts , One of outer loop and one of another loop . At the present time we are not presenting an outer loop . The suggestion is there that at some time there could be an outer loop , Erich Knobil , 306 Warren Rd . : Mr . Knobil asked when and where the Northeast Civic Assoc . is meeting on this proposed loop road . He was told on October 16 , 1974 , at the Northeast School , Elizabeth Morris , 303 Muriel St . s Where is the proposed road in the Northeast ? Answer - between Muriel and Warren Rd . and across Hanshaw in that vicinity . Mrs . Morris then asked if that proposal would provide for any future expansion for BOCES . Mr . Liguori said that it would be necessary for BOCES to acquire additional land . Robert Bruce : Please bear in mind that these are all possibilities that you are discussing . They are not absolutes . Mrs . Morris : If this joining of the roads were done in the future - 10 years say - perhaps we should look to the needs in the future and not try to accommodate just the needs right now , Mr . Liguori stated that the controlled access concept would hope to avoid this problem . Sam Slacks I have sat on this Planning Board for several years and it • has always been my purpose to project ahead . I would like to follow up on the lady ' s statement just made . I think we should project ourselves just a little farther forward with respect to an inner or outer loop . I have a problem with a corridor in a high population area or through a node . Instead of routing the traffic inward , why not out -- radiate them out . Why is this not a planning concept ? Applause , Mr . Liguori said that the problem is that that concept assumes that people want to go out of the area . Our concept tries to reach the people and carry them where they want to go . We are not trying to by-pass the area . Mr . Slacks I can leave the schools on Warren Road and go over to Route 13 up to the Gas and Electric and pick up Route 366 and go to Ellis Hollow and get to Pine Tree and be home before I could go down Hanshaw and through Forest Home . Mr . Missirian stated that they are working in the Department on a comprehensive plan to 1995 . Tompkins County will have a population of 95 , 000 . We have now 80 , 000 . An increase of approximately 15 , 000 into the urban areas . There is a frame of about 20 - 25 years ahead of us that we have considered - population figures , employment figures , Dennis Severance : How does this concept get accepted ? Robert Bruce : After the Public Information Meetings and after people have had complete opportunity to voice their opinions and we submit any changes to the County Planning and Public Works Committee , we will have Public Hearings to make further changes . After that it will advance to the next steps . Erich Knobil : Can this project be brought to public referendum? Mr . Liguori said that there is one move that mandates a public referendum . That is if we have a bond issue . I do not know if there is a permissive ' Town of Ithaca Planning Board September 17 , 1974 referendum referred to in Town Law . Mrs . Holcomb commented that in Town Law we are not allowed to have an advisory referendum . Mr . Missirian stated that they are going around neighborhoods rather than going through them . We go very close to Forest Home and in no way disturb the area . Nevertheless people could go to the circumferential within a half a mile . We will go as close as possible to neighborhoods to serve them and will leave them free also . David Wyatt , 415 Warren Rd . 90 Most of the concerns are with the possi- bilities . Do you suggest that all the possibilites are equal possibili ® ties ? Mr . Liguori stated that in the MacNeil Report they are merely alternatives . They are somewhat equal in that they are all proposed for your reaction , It is pretty clear that there ought to be a corridor somewhere in the vicinity of Warren Rd . Mrs . Holcomb commented that they are all equal in that they all have problems . Florence D . Burger , 501 Warren Rd . . Do we get the whole thing or not ing7 Mr . Liguori said ' No It is a whole concept , yes . Certain segments will be impractical to build perhaps . Or perhaps it will not function if one part is not built . Mr . Bruce commented that because of the way this works , e . g . , I live here and work there , it would be fine by me to build the part of the road that I want , However , we must arrive at a community solution . We cannot build one part that will serve one area at the expense of another , Dan Hoffman , Spruce Hill Rd . o Will there be an Environmental Impact Statement ? Mr . Liguori said yes , there will be a comparable statement . Florence Burger ; This is going to cost millions of dollars - - where will it come from? Mr . Bruce stated that they will not raise taxes . They hope for State assistance and Federal participation . There may be a bond issue . David K . Wyatt , 415 Warren Rd . 0 All the planning maps seem to stop at Route 13 . Have you looked beyond Route 1307 Mr , Missirian stated that our studies are done County-wide , MOTION by Mr . Sam Slack , seconded by Mr . Robert Christianson ,* RESOLVED , that this meeting be adjourned until Tuesday , September 24 , 1974 , at 79030 p . m . for further discussion with Mr . Schoenfeld . There was no further discussion and the Chair called for a vote . All members present voted aye , Carried unanimously . ADJOURNMENT The Chairwoman adjourned the Meeting at 109050 p . m . Respectfully submitted Nancy M . Fuller , Secretary _ . i iAlA Kr art; � �- ---- --------- - �-cJ XL C3)- W t may, h-� , 1 0�� �`,�'. V p , � • Pqfv kilo k CA-3 w , Ale ! /7�2 -w,� - ----- Ll 14 1: y u r ' LO r � J � � --- f -