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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB Minutes 1972-07-06 TOWN OF ITHACA PLANNING BOARD EXECUTIVE SESSION July 6 , 1972 A special working meeting of the Planning Board of the Town of Ithaca was held on Thursday , July 6 , 1972 , at 7 : 30 p . m . in the Town of Ithaca Offices , 108 East Green Street , Ithaca , New York . PRESENT : Chairwoman Barbara Holcomb , Robert Scannell , Daniel Baker , Maurice Harris , Robert Christianson , Peter Francese , Planning Consultant , David Cowan , Zoning Officer , Town Councilman Robert Powers , and Town Councilman Noel Desch , ALSO PRESENT : Mr . Erdman , Developer for Beacon Hills , Mr . Erdman , Engineer for Beacon Hills , Mr . Frank Brosso and others , Architects of Beacon Hills , and Mr . David Gersh , Attorney for Beacon Hills . ABSENT : Sam Slack , Frederick Scott , Arnold Albrecht . The Meeting was brought to order at 7 : 45 p . m . by Chair - woman Holcomb , PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT ON SOUTH HILL , " BEACON HILLS " , AT EAST KING ROAD AND TROY ROAD , The Beacon Hills , deveiopers presented a revised plan which resulted from the informal discussion with the Planning Board follow - ing their presentation of their Proposal on June 20 ; 1972 . See Minutes of that Meeting . • Mrs . Holcomb stated , " The whole idea of the commercial area being on tY;ie South side of East King Road rather than the interior of the development gives me the willies . It will be necessary to cross East King Road on foot , or drive a car there . All the traffic will channel into King Road East and into the parking lot at the commercial area . " Additionally , Mrs . Holcomb expressed deep concern about the, length ' of the cul de . sacs . Mr . Brosso rejected this as no problem . There was a discussion of the ring road and the internal roads . The developers stated that only the ring road will be deeded to the Town of Ithaca.. Mrs . Holcomb asked .'_ f the interior roads will be ,adequate for �' i : r, rotection , and if Fire Chief Weaver had been consulted . Ther •- c,i -, s no specific answer to this question , but Mr . Brosso said that ,: t: = re could be a reduction in the problem of the length of the cul de by increasing the quality of materials . No further. e1ab ^ y Tion of this statement waw" made , a 2 - Town of Ithaca Planning Board July 6 , 1972 At this point , Mr . Noel Desch , Councilman , and member of the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca , asked Mrs . Holcomb exactly what is the purpose of this special meeting , Mrs , Holcomb said that the Planning Board agreed that it would be useful at this point to have the Town Board hear this propo - sal since it was such an extensive one . The Town Board has the res - ponsibility for the re - zoning and the Planning Board felt it important that they react. at the beginning stages . She continued to say , that it was her feeling in reading the present Zoning Ordinance that at the time of re - zoning the plan has to be set , In view of the amount of money being expended to arrive at that point , it is only fair to the Developer to have heard as much input as possible . Mr . Desch asked how will this plan be phased . Mr . Brosso said that the last time table was four years , but this will change as a result of the meeting with the Planning Board of June 20 , 1972 . Mr . Robert Powers , Councilman , and member of the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca , asked about what the Developers had done to tabulate traffic counts , •; The Developer stated that they had figures on the number of automobiles that the development will generate , but that they had no official traffic counts . He further stated that they will make the exits more or less functional , Mr . Powers asked whether this would be done before the project is completed or in the future . It was stated that it would be done during the construction . Mr . Powers then asked , if there were more cars coming onto King Road East , would you add more exits ? The answer was no . Mr . Powers then said how many automobiles do you anticipate ? The answer was 960 . Mr . .Desch asked if they could see a blow -up of a typical group of clusters , Mr . Brosso showed the Planning Board and guests a blow - up of two clusters . It showed guest parking , private roads , and grounds which would be maintained by the owners or by a neighborhood associa - tion . Mr . Powers asked who uses the golf course . Mr . Brosso said that many people would use it - the owners , neigbbcrs , and outsiders on a membership basis , Mr . Desch wondered how the Developers will satisfy the problem of lot lines and outer limits of a golf course . It was stated that Mr , David Gersh , the attorney for Beacon Hills , is working on this gr;.estion . It appeared that the problem of ownership is still up - 3 - Town of Ithace. Planning Board July 6 , 1972 in the air . Mr . Desch felt that there is a problem in how the Develo - per is going to describe the approach they are going to take to this project , Mr . Francese stated that he felt that it is density that is the over - riding factor . A cluster of four dwelling units in a building is permissible in a cluster development in an R - 15 Zone . Under New York State Law , it is possible to do this under R - 15 and our existing Ordinance , There followed a long discussion of R - 15 and the old Ordinance and the proposed Ordinance . It was agreed that the new Ordinance should be much clearer with regard to R - 15 , Mr . Francese said that business commercial must be approved by the Town Board . The discussion returned to the Beacon Hills Development itself . Mr . Brosso said that the commercial area will be 10 or 11 acres . There will be 4 areas developed as multiple totalling 30 acres , plus 7 acres for a school . There will be 441 total units of multiple . • Mrs . Holcomb then read a Legal Memorandum from the Office of Planning Services which referred to Section 281 of Town Law , This indicated that i; he Planning Board ; when so empowered by the Town Board could provide for clustering in a residential area as long as the overall density as provided for in the Zoning Ordinance was not exceeded , Mr . Powers expressed concern as to whether or not the • Town Board has delegated this power . Mrs , Holcomb said that she feels that they have and Mr . Desch concurred . Mr . Desch asked what was the overall plan for commercial development in the South Hill area , Mrs . Holcomb said that the Mat Associates development area is different from this proposal , It would be Business B . This development ( Beacon Hills ) is more Business A . with the exception of having a restaurant and an Inn , which is Business C . Mr . Powers wondered if there would not be a great deal of competition . Mrs . Holcomb continued , " It is the business of having the commercial area across the road that bothers me because it might be dangerous , If it is inside the development , then it would seem to serve those who live there . " Mr . Powers queried , " If , for example , someone were living in Apartment #8 and wanted to go to Troy Road , just how would he go ? " Mr . Brosso said that he would probably use the interior road , It will be 60 , wide , He repeated that the ring road would be T Town of Ithaca Planning Board July 6 , 1972 a dedicated highway . Both Mr . Desch and Mr . Powers asked about the large problem of snow and snow removal in that area . Mr . Brosso stated that - the developers do not want a project designed by the highway engineer . Mr . Francese asked the Developer why he increased the number of multiple housing and lessened the number of single .family units . Mr . Erdman , the Developer , stated that it was a matter of feasibility since the number of units has been reduced to three per acre . In a sirailar development in Penfield , New York , near Rochester , the density is 42 per acre . Mr . Erdman went on to say that rentals will be $ 247 , 00 per month and up . There will be one and two bedroom apartments , with no studio apartments and no three bedroom apartments . The development known as Beacon. Hills is patterned after Heritage Village near Hartford , Connecticut , The feasibility question becomes apparent when one sees that at Heritage Village they have 1 , 000 acres and Beacon Hills has 200 acres at 3 units per acre . . In Heritage Village the �. owners ' association pays a fee for maintenance , This fee is included in the rent , but it covers only maintenance for the campus , This fee does not cover services to the recreation area such as a golf course . Mrs . Holcomb then referred to the question of a school for that area or a place for a school . A school for approximately 400 students would :require 7 acres of land . The State requirements are K through 6th Grade , a minimum of 5 acres up to 200 students , and • then an increase of 1 acre per 100 students after that . The School District has usually wanted more acreage than that . For Grades 7 through 12 , 10 acres are required for 250 students , up to 15 acres for 500 students , and 1 acre per hundred after 500 students . A Bus Stop space is nE% eded off the road , Mrs . Holcomb received her infor - mation from the School Board as to the number of acres required per student . Now the Developers presented a number of slides for the Planning Board and guests to view . The slides were of Heritage Village in Connecticut , a similar development in Penfield , N , Y . and the Beacon Hills site , They stated that exterior lighting and signs will be provided in keeping with the mode of the development . Also it was noted that the owners ' association elects its own Board . There were intermittent questions from the viewers . Mr . :Francese pointed out that the area is in fact zoned • R - 30 . The members thought that this was a very interesting question . The Town Board should look to this fact . Mr . Erdman said that the plan is not quite solid on the Country Store . It will be approximately 100 , 000 sq . ft . There is parking there . It is screened . Town of Ithaca Planning Board July 6 , 1972 Mr . Erdman referred to the Inn/Motel . Phase 1 of the Development calls for 40 units . He said this is needed as a service to people who come into town . Mr . Powers said , " I do object to the commercial area on the other side of the road . I would like to see it integrated into the cluster development as far as possible . I would like to see means of access - walkways or overheads . " The Architect said that it was the type of land within the development , the steep grade , the rock , etc . , that prompted the placing of the commercial area across the street . Mr „ Scannell expressed concern over children eventually having to walk to school across the King Road , Mr „ Erdman replied that this development is geared to older people with less than one child average . Mr : Francese indicated that he felt that it would be years and years before this school area would be used . Mr . Powers wondered if the, School Board would even buy it . • Mr . Erdman continued by saying that he felt strongly that we are in a growth belt right here . It is also a very wealthy area . He also said that dropping the density from 42 to 3 per acre poses very real problems to the worth and beauty of the project . Mr . Powers stated that he feels that both the roads ( King Road East and Troy Road ) are problems , but if people choose to live there , then the roads are made to .fit the situation . Mrs . Holcomb said that the County Highway Engineer , Frank Liguori , :suggested that we discuss this development with the County soon . Mr . Desch said , " You have a very good plan except for two triangles of multiple . I would hate to see us approve a cul - de - sac for either of these especially the Northeast one . " Mr . Powers said , " I admire the development but I would like to see the size of the commercial reduced . " Mr . Desch said , " I do not see how we could allow this one without reducing the size of the other one ( Mat Associates ) . " Mr . Erdman said , " I would like to say that if we are willing to take this kind of risk and put in this kind of money , we are entitled to some consideration . " Mr . :Desch said , " I am not convinced that this will not work as a commercial development . " Mr . Erdman said , " I will build the services first . There will be no neon signs , no strip commercial . " Town of Ithaca Planning Board July 6 , 1972 Mr . Erdman continued " I am goingto ask I want to get started now . We feel el it iimortanttoor the order . et mortgage comm :ittments now before the election in November . oThere may be some belt 7tightening after . I want to begin the inital stages immediately . " Mrs . Holcomb said , " You still have the water problem , " MIS . Gersh indicated that there is an important water meeting next Monday , July 10 , 1972 , and then it could be at least 90 days before! an answer is forthcoming . Mrs . Holcomb said , " I do not think you can operate on a hope . The Town is hamstrung too . Are they willing to allocate all their units to one development now ? One approach could be a condi - tional approval based on the allocation of water :' Mr . Powwrs asked how many firm requests do you have for prople who want to build developments ? How many people have put in these requests ? Mr . Francese replied , " Schickel , 160 units of condominiums ; 100 units for (sroff Kennilworth ; 300 Mat Associates who are looking for developers „ Outside of the Town there are 800 units for Telandis in Lansing . Also out Route 34 in Lansing 150 units ; there is some activity in Dryden and the City of Ithaca just approved a Mobile Home Park . " Mr . Desch said that he felt that the Planning Board should recommend to the Town Board that we operate on a total basis , not piecemeal . • Mr . Erdman said , " There would be no risk if we operate under the present zoning and just sold off lots . We are taking a risk and so are you . " Mr . Francese mused about the schedule of events that could take place . Planning Board - July 25th , Town Board - August 14 , Public Hearing - September 11 , Mr . Desch thought we should get together with Mr . Buyoucous to set up a memorandum of understanding , so that there is no confusion as to the order of things . At this time there was a discussion of the plans that must be presented . Mr . Desch outlined what is needed - water , sewer , utility lines , telephone . There was also a further discussion of the time schedule . Plans have to be presented to the Planning Board and then a recommendation made to the Town Board , Mr . Brosso stated , " With all due respect , this is the only place that does it that way . Normally it is in this order . A general resolution to re - zone upon acceptance of a preliminary plan . " Now , Mrs . Holcomb read from Page 19 , Article IX , Site Plan Approval , of the Zoning Ordinance . • - 7 - Town of Ithaca Planning Board July 6 , 1972 Mr . Gersh made a quick interpretation of this section . He said that :it is a general plan that seems to be referred to , Mips , Holcomb said , " If vie accept this interpretation , the second time around you will have to go the route of Planning Board ; Town Board and Public Hearing , Mrs , Holcomb continued to enunciate a clarification of the order of things . First of all , there would be an approval of the cluster , then we must go through multiple and commercial and business , Zoning approval will have to have tied with it the mechanics of how this will work - maintenance , home ownership , etc , For example . i. f there are streets before there are people , who main - tains the streets , Mrs , Holcomb now asked , " Do you feel a reasonable satis - faction with what has been presented ? " Mr . Christianson replied , " Absolutely , " Mr . Harris said , " Yes . " cluster , " Mr . Scannell said , " Too much multiple and not enough ' Mr . Christianson said , " The way they are spread out , I see no problem . " Mr „ Scannell said , " It is not location , it is numbers . I would rather see the acres loosened up and more cluster , " Mrs , Holcomb said , " The recreation area is still across the road . " Mr . Scannell said , " About the school - . if you are going to put it therE! , I would rather see it removed entirely . " Mr . Powers asked , " Has anyone asked the School DJstrlct about this matter ? " Mrs . Holcomb repeated her previous statement about her discussion with Mrs , Martha Allee of the School Board . Mr . Christianson said , " I am the one who brought it up and I would be willing to drop it . " Mr . Francese asked the members of the Planning Board how they would feel about raising the density from 3 per acre to 32 per • acre and cutting down on the multiple , Mr . Francese pointed out that there is really no such thing as a single family dwelling because our Ordinance allows an apartment in a single family dwelling , Mrs , Holcomb added , " We set the upper limit at 3 because it is possible to have every single family dwelling be a double ( a total of 6 per ;acre ) , " _ 8 _ Town of Ithaca Planning Board July 6 , 1972 Mr . Francese continued " If You o to per acre you � Y g 32 p � would increase the number of units by 75 ( cluster ) . If the land for the school wE! re released , you would add 75 more cluster . That would give a total of 785 units . ' Mrs . Holcomb then asked , " How does this multiple compare with Kennilworth ? " Mr . Francese replied , " No where near . That was 17 units per acre and 'this would probably be 11 . " Mr . Scannell wondered about putting the middle of the Development in cluster and the school area into multiple . All agreed that this would be much better . It would be 11 the same density approximately with 800 units . Mr . Scannell said , " You do that and I would go along with it 100% . " Mr . Desch said , " A second exit must be in there ( for the Northeast multiple ) . " Mr . Gersh asked , " Can we rely on this and go ahead with a . � new revision ? " It was agreed that the Developer could rely on this opinion . Mr . Francese outlined the requirements and the status of the proposal at this moment . He said , " A cluster development of 3 . 5 units per acre with two ( 2 ) multiple residence districts with a • maximum density of 11 units per acre . One multiple residence district will be the tr'Langular parcel next to Troy Road . The other multiple residence will be thez,: seven acre parcel South of the shopping center . The rest of thEl development would be in a cluster of 3 . 5 units per acre with the Exception of the commercial development . The commercial area would consist of 10 acres on the South side of King Road East . " Mr . Christianson said , " That 3 . 5 units per acre seems to be a happy figure , " He also said , " I would like to see this agree - ment of the Planning Board shown in the Minutes as a Consensus . " Mr . Christianson continued by asking if this should be put in the form of a Motion in order that it be possible for the setting of a Public Hearing on July 25th . It was agreed that it has to be in the form of a Motion . Mr . Christianson said , " I so move . " Mr . Scannell seconded . The Motion was passed . It was discussed that the purpose of the Public Hearing is to consider the re - zoning of six parcels of land on King Road East belonging i-. o Beacon Hills Ltd . , one parcel from R - 30 to R - 15 ( cluster ) , one parcel to Business " A " , one parcel to Business " C " , and three parcels to Multiple Residence . L Town of Ithaca Planning Board July 6 , 1972 1 ie At this juncture , the members of the Planning Board discussed some of the items which will come up at a Public Hearing , Mrs . Holcomb stated that the form of the zoning request is going to be very difficult going with Mr . Buyoucous . She foresaw real problems in trying to separate the Business " A " and Business " C " for re - zoning . A question was asked - if this zone is re -zoned R - 15 cluster , can we stretch it to include tennis courts and swimming pool ? The present Ordinance would allow this . Mr . Desch said that he would like to see all this in the newspaper prior to the Public Hearing , Mrs . Holcomb asked if all were in favor of holding a Public Hearing for the purpose of re - zoning on the 25th of July . The answer was yes . ADJOURNMENT . There was a Motion for adjournment from Mr . Scannell . It was seconded by Mr . Christianson and passed . The Meeting adjourned at 10 ; 45 p . m . FURTHER DISCUSSION , Following the meeting , Mr . Powers , Mr . Desch , Mr . Francese: and Mrs . Holcomb met for approximately one -half for discussion . • Respectfully submitted , Nancy M . Fuller , Acting -Secretar,.