HomeMy WebLinkAboutPB Minutes 1972-04-25 / TOWN OF ITHACA PLANNING BOARD
April 25 , 1972
The regular monthly meeting of the Planning Board of the Town of Ithaca
was held on Tuesday , April 25th , 1972 , at 7 : 30 p . m . in the Town of Ithaca Offices ,
108 East Green Street , Ithaca , New York ,
PRESENT Chairman Barbara Holcomb , Daniel Baker , Robert Scannell , Sam
Slack , Maurice Harris , Robert Christianson , Peter Francese ( Planning Consultant ) ,
Reynolds Metz ( Assistant Zoning Officer ) ,
ABSENT : Arnold Albrecht , Frederick Scott .
Prior to the commencement of the meeting , Mrs . Holcomb passed a sheet of
population figures among the members of the Planning Board . A brief discussion was
held about population growth in the Ithaca area and its potential . It was stated
that a 1 % growth is the figure used by the Tompkins County Planning Department .
The meeting was brought to order by Mrs . Holcomb at 7 : 40 p . m . There were
12 people in the audience .
APPROVAL OF MINUTES .
The Minutes of the April 4th , 1972 , meeting were presented and it was moved
by Robert Scannell that they be accepted as read . The Motion was seconded by Mr .
Maurice Harris and passed unanimously .
The Minutes of the March 21st , 1972 , meeting were presented and it was
moved by Mr . Robert Christianson that they be accepted as read . The motion was
seconded by Mr . Robert Scannell and passed unanimously .
PARK COUNCIL .
There was no report from Park Council .
ZONING OFFICER .
There was no report from the Zoning Officer .
At this point , Mrs . Nancy Krook requested permission to speak from the
audience . She wished to bring to the attention of the Zoning Officer that the area
of the old P & C and Ide ' s Bowl is in deplorable condition . She stated that garbage ,
papers , etc . , are continually blowing into the Cemetery . She also wanted it known
that the F B C also, piles its garbage all over the place and is not only a fire
hazard , but is an ugly mess . She asked that the Zoning Officer take a look at this
area . Mr . Metz said that this would be done .
PLANNING CONSULTANT.
Mr . Francese began by discussing the planting screen at the Kennilworth
Shopping Center on Judd Falls Road . He stated that at the last Planning Board
meeting it was decided to wait until the Fall when the County Engineer has finished .
The Town can use the Escrow to do with what they want if Kennilworth does not
complete the planting .
-4p, Mr . Francese stated that the issue of Speed Limits will be discussed later .
Mr . Francese stated that Mr . Willis Hilker will be coming in at 9 : 00 p . m .
Because there is no water available for his proposed construction on Northview Road ,
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Town of Ithaca Planning Board - 2 - April 25 , 1972
he would like to go to one well . This would mean that when and if the Moratorium
imposed by the City of Ithaca on Water Hook-Ups is lifted , Mr . Hilker can more
easily and cheaply connect into it .
Mr . Francese then discussed the water situation with the Board Members .
He stated that he was thinking very seriously of suggesting that binding arbitration
be set up , to remedy this dreadful situation . He stated that he had suggested
this to Mrs . Ann Tones , Councilwoman . He said that he will follow this up with her .
At this point , Mrs . Holcomb requested permission to shift the May meeting
dates to May 9th , 1972 , and May 23rd , 1972 , The May 9th meeting will be a working
meeting to discuss the Zoning Ordinance , May 23rd will be the regular meeting of
the Planning Board . This plan was acceptable to the Board .
Mrs . Holcomb then asked for any statements from the audience .
Mrs . Sharon Meyer read a prepared statement to the Planning Board . A copy
of this statement is hereby attached and made a part of the official Minutes . Mrs .
Holcomb thanked Mrs . Meyer and asked if there were any other statements to be made .
Mrs . Nancy Krookispoke and referred to a letter sent to the Chairman of the
Planning Board by Mrs . Carmichael . She asked if this letter had been received and
Mrs . . Holcomb stated that it had . She ( Mrs . Krook ) wished to reinforce this letter
herself and repeated that Mrti Carmichael had stated that the prodosed 'developments
in the Snyder Hill Road area would mean a neighbourhood of 75% apartments and 25%
houses .
Mrs . Holcomb asked if anyone else wished to speak . There was no further
discussion from the door .
PROPOSED REZONING OF ENOS PYLE ' S LAND FOR THE SCHICKEL ENVIRONMENTAL DEVELOPMENT CO .
Mrs . Holcomb began this discussion by reading from the present Zoning
Ordinance of the Town of Ithaca . She read from Page 19 , Article IX , Section 46 ,
ss . 1 , 2 , and 3 .
Mrs . Holcomb stated that her interpretation is that at this point the
Planning Board cannot recommend a rezoning to be enacted right now . It would be
possible to make a recommendation dependent upon the fulfillment of certain
requirements .
Mrs . Holcomb then asked for comments within this general framework with
regard to the proposal for this 16 -acres .
Mr . Robert: Scannell stated that drainage is his only concern . He said that
he is pretty much in favor of this development .
Mr . Sam Slack indicated that the entrance and the traffic patterns were
his major worries . He cited the problem of getting from Honness Lane on to
Slaterville Road .
Mrs . Holcomb pointed out at this point that she has asked Mr . Marion
go Morey , the Town Highway Superintendent , to look into the intersection whether or
not there is a development . She stated that the new State Engineer will go with
him .
Mr . Robert Christianson asked if there is any time limit as to how long it
takes to complete such a development . Could there be problems connected with the
Town of Ithaca Planning . Board - 3 - April 25 , 1972
economics of this type of thing ? If it took too long and cost too much money ,
would it discourage another development or two or three?
Mrs . Holcomb stated that she plans to construct a chart which will show
all the approved and proposed plans for development in the Town of Ithaca .
Mr . Francese wished to point out at this time that the Schickel
Development is not apartments .
Mr . Sam Slack asked if it is correct that there has been no approval of
condominiums .
Mrs . Holcomb and Mr . Francese replied - yes .
Mr . Francese indicated that this development was one of part wall owner-
ship which is a slight variation of the pure dondominium .
Mrs . Holcomb asked if there were anyone on the Planning Board opposed to
this type of construction .
Mr . Christianson stated that he felt that all were in agreement but with
reservations on traffic , water , drainage .
At this juncture ; Mrs . Holcomb stated that she wished to place on the
table the following words : This was not a motion . " The Planning Board looks with
favor upon the proposal of the Schickel Environmental Development Corporation to
develop condominiums on a 16 - acre parcel off Honness Lane , not to exceed 160 units .
When an acceptable site plan showingbuilding layout and elevations roads
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recreation areas , green spaces , walkways , buffering areas , and also , a detailed
drainage plan showing connections to existing drainage ditches and culverts , have
been presented to and accepted by the Planning Board , the Planning Board will
recommend rezoning of this 16 -acres from R- 15 to R - 10 . "
Mrs . Holcomb asked for comments .
Mr . Norbert Schickel , developer , stated that the final decision as to
whether he builds actual condominiums as legally described or a planned unit
development has not: been made . He described a Condominium as being a home where a
person owns the space within his structure . He does not own the land . The building
continaing the homers is owned in common undivided interest . A Planned Unit
Development is where a person owns his own building with a party wall and also owns
the land under the building . The rest of the land is owned by a Homeowner ' s Assoc .
of which he is a member .
Mr . Sam Slack stated that the Planning Board is approving of the plan upon
favorable conditions .
Mr . Robert Christianson said that this was a reasonable approach .
MOVED by Mir . Robert Scannell , seconded by Mr . Maurice Harris and passed
unanimously the following :
" The Planning Board looks with favor upon the proposal of the Schickel
Environmental Development Corporation to develop condominiums or planned unit
development involving home ownership on a 16 -acre parcel off Honness Lane , not to
exceed 160 units .
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Town of Ithaca Planning Board . - 4 - April 25 , 1972
When an acceptable site plan showing building layout and elevations , roads ,
recreation areas , green spaces , walkways , buffering areas , and also , a detailed
drainage plan showing connections to existing drainage ditches and culverts , and
acceptable traffic pattern outlined , have been presented to and accepted by the
Planning Board , the Planning Board will recommend rezoning of this 16-acres from
R- 15 to multiple residence district . "
Mrs . Holcomb stated that this recommendation will be passed on to the
Town Board ,
PROPOSED REZONING OF THE EASTERN HEIGHTS PARCEL ON SNYDER HILL ROAD ,
Mrs . Holcomb stated that the exact same provision of the Zoning Ordinance
as previously read applies to this proposal .
Mr . Robert Christianson stated that it was his feeling that this proposal
is very grey and that the Planning Board does not have enough information to make
a proposal .
Mr . , FrancEse stated that he had had a long conversation with Charles
Warren , realtor . Fie had a feeling that there might not be any apartments put in on
this site . There is talk now of a recreation area being built in this area . It
would be quite larcie with tennis courts , perhaps a swimming pool , etc . Mr . . Francese
stated that it was his feeling that it would be a quasi -corra *rcial area like a club .
Mr . Francese stated that clubs can be in an R- 30 zone .
. Mr . Maurice Harris said that this was tried in the Northeast area and voted
down because it was too expensive .
There was a discussion at this point as to just what was happening here .
It has been on the table for to long .
Mrs . Holcomb stated that she was not in favor of the apartment proposal .
She cited the hill on Snyder Hill Road but thought that it might be improved if the
crown of the road were improved .
Mr . Robert Christianson said that if everything was so bad , why do people
want to move there ?
Mr . Robert Scannell stated that it was because people wanted to go out
into the country .
Mr . Robert Christianson felt a paradox here . The area is so naturally
geared to the people that are there . The paradox is that it is so hard for people
to get from West Hill to Cornell that they go here to live . He stated that what
this Town really needs more than anything else is a bunch of good roads. He went
on to say that if we do nothing here , then does somebody just over the Town Line do
something ? For example , he cited West Danby . There is heavy traffic from there
over which we have no control .
Mr . Sam Slack said that one can look North of Ithaca all the way to Genoa
and the density has tripled . Pine Tree Road and Snyder Hill used to be way out in
. the country . He thE! n asked , just where are we in this proposal ?
Mr . Frances.e stated that the Town Board has asked the Planning Board to say
something to the Town Board , whether or not this is a good site for development .
The Town Board really owes it to the people to answer this proposal . It is now
uneconomical to develop it as presented in 1968 , so they are looking for other ways -
apartments , recreation area , etc .
Town of .Ithaca Planning Board - 5 - April 25 , 1972
• Mr . Robert Christianson suggested that the Planning Board recommend that the
proposal presented four years ago be rejected . He said that perhaps one could say'.
as an amendment " riot for multiple " .
Mr . Robert Scannell stated that he felt that two proposals need to be
answered - the old one and the new one presented at the Public Hearing ,
Mrs . Holcomb read a possible resolution , as follows : "The Planning Board
does not look with favor upon the proposed development by Eastern Heights Corporation
on the upper side of Snyder Hill Road at a density greater than would be allowed
under the present single- family R - 15 zoning , and , therefore , recommends that this
area not be rezoned R- 10 for the following reasons : 1 . Lack of an alternate road
down from Snyder Hill . 2 . Present condition of Snyder Hill Road with steep grade ,
high crown , and deep drainage ditch . However , the Planning Board would look with
favor upon a single- family cluster development for this area which would help to
alleviate the problems and expenses of developing this area for single -family
dwelling , and which would not seriously increase the density in that area ,
A brief diiscussion was held and then Mr . Robert Christianson MOVED as
follows
That the Planning Board recommend to the Town Board that the 260 unit
apartment proposal of four years ago be rejected ,
And further , the Planning Board does not look with favor upon the
development of the . Eastern Heights Corporation property on the upper side of
Snyder Hill Road at a density greater than would be allowed under the present single -
family R- 15 zoning , and , therefore , would not recommend that this area be rezoned
to multiple residence district for the following reasons :
a . Lack of an alternate road down from Snyder Hill .
b . Present condition of Snyder Hill Road with steep grade , high crown , and
deep drainage ditch .
However , the Planning Board would look with favor upon a single- family
cluster development for this area which would help to alleviate the pr*blems and
expenses of developing this area for single- family dwellings , but which would not
seriously increase the total density in that area .
Mr . Sam Slack seconded the Motion .
The Motion was discussed . Drainage was mentioned . Sewage was discussed .
The old sewage system is in , but can it handle a new set of houses ?
Mrs . Nancy Krook spoke from the floor and wished it to be placed on the
record that Eastern Heights has not taken care of its existing drainage problems .
Also from the floor it was stated that no one has contacted the Eastern
Heights residents about any recreation areas .
A vote was held with all ayes being voiced with the exception of Mr .
Robert Scannell who abstained from voting .
PROPOSED CHANGES TO WILLIS HILKER ' S DEVELOPMENT ON NORTHVIEW ROAD .
Mr . Hilker .stated that he is seeking approval of a change made by the
Health Department to his development on the basis of the water situation . He is
Town of . Ithaca Plannng. Board - 6 - April 25 , 1972
asking approval of a . chan_ ge to Lots 1 and 11 . Mr . Hilker ' s plan is on file in the
. Town Office . Mr . Hilker stated that he can use the sewer available . He has written
authorization from the City of Ithaca .
The question was asked if this whole area has to go to wells , whose res -
ponsibility is it to put in a water system? The answer was that possibly if there
were a road , the Town would put in a system .
Mr . Francese felt that it was extremely unlikely that the Town would accept
the road without a water line .
Mr . Hilker said that then he would have to put in the water :
Mr . Christianson felt that it would be the responsibility of the homeowner
to put in his own water .
Mr . Hilker said that there would be one well per lot on numbers 1 and 11 .
Mrs . Holcomb asked Mr . Hilker if he had public water , where would the line
go ? Mr . Hilker indicated this on the map .
Mr . Hilker, stated that if the wells were put in and then the water is
released , the money spent on the wells would be down the drain .
Mr . Francese stated that he still does not believe that the Town would
accept a road even if perfect . Mr . Francese suggested that Mr . Hilker should talk
to Mr . Schwan , Town Supervisor , re road and water .
Mr . Robert Christianson asked if it would be possible to have one well and
serve the whole thing ?
Mr . Hilker replied that a community water system has a lot of problems
legally and the tim.a involved is very long .
Mr . Robert Scannell MOVED and Mr . Robert Christianson seconded that the
Planning Board approve the revised plan for Mr . Willis Hilker ' s subdivision on
Northview Road involving the installation of wells on Lots # 1 and # 11 as approved
by the Health - Department . The Motion was passed unanimously .
SPEED LIMITS .
Mrs . Holcomb recalled for the Planning Board members that the Planning Board
had submitted a recommendation to the Town Board for the Speed Limit of 35 m . p . h .
W
n one area . This was tabled by the Town Board ,
Mr . Francese stated that three people from the Department of Transportation
came down to talk with the City and he was there . He said that Charles Ames in
Syracuse is the man to see .
Discussion was first held about the Slaterville Road and Route 366 Area
Speed Limit question . The criteria of the Department is that roads are for cars and
they will under no circumstances grant an area speed limit for anything other than a ,,
4P totally closed subdivision . There is absolutely no way to have an area speed limit
in the area we are talking about .
Mr . Sam Slack asked by what means does one get a 35 m . p . h . speed limit?
Mr . Francese replied - no way .
Town of Ithaca Planning Board - 1 - April 25 , 1912
Mr . Francese stated that the problem is that everybody wants a 35 m . p . h .
speed limit in his own area and then speeds in somebody else ' s area . However , Mr .
Francese wanted to point out that the Department of Transportation does not preclude
individual roads heaving limits . Therefore , he would recommend a 30 m . p . h . limit on
Snyder Hill Road . He wished to make the following recommendations .
1 . Reinforce to Mrs . Constance Cook that we must become a Suburban: Town .
2 . Certain roads be recognized ashaving two characteristics - high traffic
and high number of dwellings . These are primary target areas for sidewalks .
3 . The Town ought to put back on the table the business of hiring a Town
Constable .
Mrs . Holcomb spoke to the question of the Suburban Town . She said that Mr .
Schwan , the Town Supervisor , was going to go ahead with this plan , but is now having
second thoughts since he has heard it said that it means that everybody comes in to
ask for a reduction in their particular area .
Mr . Scannell suggested that one way of eliminating such a happenning would
be to set up a list of roads in order of their needs .
Mr . Francese felt that one thing the Town needs is a Capital Budget . 4He
said that it is
per time that the Town considered such a move .
Mrs . Holcomb said that it was her understanding that a Capital Budget set
. up is not possible under a First Class Town . She went on to say that what might . . .
possibly be done is to say that the Town is going to spend $20 ,040 a year for - the
inext- five years improving Snyder Hi 11 Road .
n�
The question of a pedestrian way was raised .
Mr . Scannell said that a long time ago he stated that the Town should get
a Town Engineer as well as a Planner . He thinks it is tis a to look into this again .
Mrs . Holcomb wondered if we should go to Bolton Point for a water.7system ,
the Engineer needed there would not be needed full time and could perhaps serve in
another capacity too .
_Y
Mr . Francese cautioned against setting up an unwieldy bureaucracy,
Mr . Sam Slack then asked about the Stop . Signs that he had made a �&Xotion
about a while ago .
Mr . Francese said that he was to talk to Mr. Howard Stevenson about this
Motion but he has not as yet .
Mr . Sam Slack also mentioned the placement of stop sign on Ellis . tloTlow
'Road at the intersection with Judd Falls Road .
The following Motion was made by Mr . Sam Slack . - Moved timt,._the following
be. . recommended to the Town Board by the Planning Board :
That the area from Slaterville Road to Ellis Hollow Road be 35a.� .fi . along
Pine Tree Road ; 11 P
That Snyder ..Hill Road be 35 m . p . h . from Slaterviile - Road o Pipe Tree Road ;
1 '
Town of Ithaca Planning Board - 8 - April 25 , 1972
That Honness Lane be 35 m . p . h . from Slaterville Road to Pine Tree Road ;
• and , Thai: there be an area speed limit of 30 m . p . h . in Eastern Heights
Subdivision ,
This Motion was seconded by Mr . Maurice Harris and passed unanimously .
Mrs . Barbara Holcomb Moved that the Planning Board strongly recommend to
the Town Board that action be taken through Mrs . Constance Cook and the State
Legislature for the Town of Ithaca to become a Suburban Town ,
This Motion was seconded by Mr . Robert Christianson , and passed unanimously .
Mrs . Barbera Holcomb Moved that the Planning Board strongly recommend to
the Town Board that consideration be given to the establishment ,of a Town Constable
or Police Force for traffic control in the Town of Ithaca .
This I'lotion was seconded by Mr . Robert Christianson , and passed unanimously .
Mr . Robert; Christianson moved that the meeting be adjourned . Mr . Sam
Slack seconded the Motion . Unanimously passed . The meeting adjourned at 10215 p . m .
Respectfully submitted ,
• Nancy M . Fuller , Acting- Secretary .
To : The Town of Ithaca rlanning Roa. rd . April 24 72
I urge the Planning Foard to deny at this time any zoning
changes for subdivisions or developments in the area bounded
by . Rt 366 - Town of Dryden Line - Rt 79 . ' Town of Ithaca
line .
There is presently no '%Iater available ; construction could not
start for a long time . ?,re cannot afforod to approve many
hundreds of apartment units only to find ourselves not
knowing at a later time which develppers are still actively
planning to go ahead . .
There is presently no committm, ent by the Town of Ithaca to
build roads �, .carrying the , aoded traffic from these develop
ments and bypassing . exi6ting neighborhoods , before the
apartments go up . This to me is reverse priority *
ode are at present in the unique . position of having too many
proposals for development in the above mentioned area . Shouldn , r
we then pick those projects that are in the best interest
of the Town ? But - to do so we ought to define first what is
in the best i nteMt of the Town .
The situation in the mentioned area suggest> a model solution
A public announcement should be made by the Town Board
stating that the above mentioned " neighborhood " is now ready
for full , final development . Proposals by individual developers
and landowners can be submitted by September 1972 .
The plann ' ng Board in consultation with area residents should
in .the meantime decide on goals : 'What should be the over—
all�density in the area ? '° 'hat should be the ratio of apartment
units to family dwellings ? should developers planning low -
and middle income 'Housing be given preferential trOatment
in some areas ? Should there public pla-ggrounds , parks ? Where
should the local teeenagers meet9Which road netwok is necessary
Bkc cle paths , walkways ? This is truly the responsibility
of he Flann �: ng Board . You will be judged in later years .
for what i ou now create .
In the fall with a firm goal at hand the Flanning Foard will
t-4ofe�a be able to decide in a rational way which mixture of
development will be in the best interest of that part of
our town *
In the same way part after part of the Town could be ratio -
nally developed . First sewers and water , then goals , then
proposals .
Sincer� ,l(� �—
Herbert Nahr
103 Judd Falls Rd