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HomeMy WebLinkAboutTB Minutes 1972-08-28.. I /ff TOWN OF ITHACA ADJOURNED BOARD MEETING Following an adjourned meeting of the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca held on August l4, 1972., which followed k regular meeting of the Town Board of the Town of IthacA held on August 7, 1972, an adjourned meet ing of the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca, Tompkins County, New York, was held at the Town of Ithaca offices at 108 East Green Street, Ithaca, New York, on the 28-th day of August, 1972, at 7:30 p.m., at TOT) which there were ^ PRESENT: Walter J. Schwah, Super-vlsor Andrew Wi McElwee, Councilman Noel DeAchi Councilman Robert if; PoWdrs, Councilman i 'ALSO PRESENT: James V* puyoucos^ Town Attorney Mrs, Barbai'a Holdomb, Chairman, Planning Board Peter Ki .Ffancese, Planning Consultant David Gersh, Attorney for Beacon Hills Dev. Paul Erdmah, Develdper for Beacon Hills Dev. Ellis Erdman, Developer for Beacon Hills Dev. Richard dandier. Architect, of Handler and Grosso, Beacon Hills Willis Hilker, Developer f6r Hilker Subdivision on Northview Road West Representative from Radio Station WVBR Representative from Radio Station WTKO Representative from the Ithaca Journal Approximately 30 interested Townspeople. Supervisor Schwan called the meeting to order at 7:45 p.m. He ^ announced that this was an adjourned meeting. ACCEPTANCE OF NORTHVIEW ROAD WEST FROM WILLIS HILKER Supervisor Schwan asked Mr. Hilker if he had raised the manhole on Northview Road West and Mr. Hilker replied that he had located it and was in process of doing so. Motion by Supervisor Schwan; seconded by Councilman Desch, RESOLVED, -that based on raising the manhold to grade and on the basis of Mr. Marion Morey's favorable recommendation on the road and Attor ney Buyoucos* recommendation of the acceptance of the deed, the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca accepts Northview Road West (herewith described, thus allowing Mr, Hilker to proceed: ALL THAT TRACT OR PARCEL OF LAND situate in the Town of Ithaca, County of Tompkins, State of New York, being the easterly portion of the 60 foot strip of land shown as 'Northview Road, West on the "Subdi-vision Plat - South Hill Estates, Coddington Road," Ithaca, New York, made for Hilker Construction by John S. MacNeill, Jr., dated October 22, 1971, approved by the Planning Board of the Town of Ithaca on December 21, 19715 Planning Board approval re-vised April 25, 1972, and approved by the Tompkins County Health Department on April 25^ 1972, and a copy of which was filed in the Tompkins County Clerk's Office on May 9> 1972, being that portion of North-view Road, West which lies easterly from the East boundaries of Lots 3 and 8 as shown on said map, and j which 60 foot strip is bounded and described as follows: Beginning j I at a point in the westerly line of Coddington Road, said point also being the intersection of the westerly line of Coddington Road and the southerly line of North-view Road West (proposed), as shown on a map by John S. MacNeill, Jr., PE-LS, entitled ^'Subdivision Plat - South Hill Estates," and dated (revised) 22 November, 1971; thence running N32 33'31"W along said westerly line of Coddington Road a distance of 60 feet to a point; thence running S57^26'29"W a distance of 122.79 feet to a point; thence running westerly along the arc of a circle to the right, having a radius of 100 feet and a central angle of 72 28*56", a distance of 126.51 feet to a point; thence running westerly along the arc of a circle to the left, having a radius of 260 feet and a central angle of 33^43'31"^ a distance of 153.04 feet to a point; which point is the Southeast corner of Lot #3 as shown on - 2 - August 28, 1972 n said roap: thence South 6 11'5^" West 60 feet to the Northeast corner of Lot #8 shown on said map; thence running easterly along the arc of a circle to the right, having a radius of 200 feet and a central angle of 33 ^3*31", a distance of 117.72 feet to a point; thence running easterly along the arc of a circle to the left, having a radius of 160 feet and a central angle of 72 28*56", a distance of 202.41 feet to a point; thence running N57°26'29"E a distance of 122.79 feet to the place of beginning and containing 1.12 acres of land more or less. Unanimously carried. PUBLIC HEARING; BEACON HILLS DEVELOPMENT, KING ROAD EAST AND TROY ROAD Proof of posting and publication having been presented. Supervisor Schwan officially opened the Public Hearing on the proposed Beacon Hills Development in the Town of Ithaca at King Road East and Troy Road. Mr. David Gersh, attorney for the Beacon Hills Development, spoke to the members of the Town Board and to the people in the audience. He described the development as being clustered housing with foot paths, bicycle paths, a pond, foot bridge, having a park setting, tennis courts, swimming pool, golf course, and club house, a country store across the road acceslsible through an underpass for the use of the residents of Beacon Hills and others, Mr, Gersh stated further that there had been careful attention to the ecology of the area, landscape, preservation of trees. He stated that the northerly part of the site is very wooded and the trees from that area would be thinned out and moved about on the site. The buildings will be designed to fit into the topography of the land rather than on a level site. He stated further that the architects will enhance his presentation of the proposal which is copied from a site in Connec ticut, Mr, Gersh then presented to the Board a properly executed affidavit of service by mail of notice of the Public Hearing to the neighbors of the development. Now, Mr. Handler of Handler and Grosso, Architects, presented for the Board and the people a slide presenta tion, He stated that the slides to be shown are of similar sites upon which the present Beacon Hills development is modeled, not copied, as stated by Mr. Gersh. The first development shown was of Heritage Woods in Parmington, Connecticut. The development is on the old Victor Borge Estate with the original house being used as a restaurant. The slides were of duplexes, fourplexes and how they are integrated as cluster condominiums. The selling price of these apartment homes is in the $29,000 to $39,000 bracket. The pictures showed open land, privacy, village center, paths, streams, integra ted design, garage grouping, outdoor parking. There were also slides shown of a development in Southvury, Connecticut, along the same lines showing also the shopping center. Mr. Handler then showed pictures of a similar project in Rochester called Rock Lake which uses an old quarry. By way of contrast, Mr. Handler showed by slide what this same project in Rock Lake would look like if it were based on a typical subdivision which uses row houses set along a road. He also showed pictures of another subdivision in Rochester which is the typical set-up at 2 units per acre and another one in Henrietta at 2.4 per acre with row after row of houses. Then came photos of the proposed Beacon Hills site, Mr, Paul Erdman showed the people the boundary lines of the proposed development at the corner of Troy Road and King Road East. Councilman Desch asked where Schuylkill Investors property line is. Mr. Erdman replied that all the Beacon Hills parcels are owned by Schuylkill Investors. Councilman Desch then asked if he were correct in thinking that Schuylkill Investors do not own any other property surrounding the proposed development. Mr. Erdman replied that he was correct. Mr. Handler continued with the slides of the land owned by Beacon Hills indicating where the shopping center would be, the clusters, the multiple, the pond, etc. He also showed an aerial map of the area. Then came the actual project map. There will be three entrances to the development, one on East King Road, the main n n - 3 - August 28, 1972 entrance off King Road East near Ridgecrest Road and one off Troy Road near the pumping station. The project map showed the entire develop ment as it will look with multiple housing, cluster housing, a six- hole golf course, pond, etc. This was followed by a drawing of two typical clusters. On this drawing there is shown one car space per unit, but the Planning Board has requested that this be changed and Mr. Handler stated that it will be changed. He indicated the place ment of the private roads and the one dedicated road which is a ring road on the project. There was a Data Chart shown with information such as the acreage (185) and total number of units (800), etc., how ever, this data is being changed somewhat to conform with the recom mendations of the Planning Board. Mr. Handler stated that the Phasing Plan will be shown later since it is being changed from the preliminary one shown here. There was a slide showing the artist's concept of how the buildings will be put on the site. Prom the floor there came the question of just where does the motel go and Mr. Handler said that the proposed Inn will be in the commer cial area. There was another question as to the capacity of the Inn and it was stated to be about 4o rooms. Another question came from the floor as to whether the Beacon Hills Development owned property up to the back lot line of homes on Ridge crest Road. It was determined that since the lots on Ridgecrest are 300 feet to 400 feet deep that the Beacon Hills land does go back to the lot lines on Ridgecrest* Mr, Gersh wished to point out that the slides showing a typical subdivision plan, i.e*, row after row of houses running along a road, are in the presentation merely for illustrative purposes to show that this plan is much more imaginative. Mr. Handler now presented the plans for Phasing of the project as required by the Planning Board. PHASE I 20 clusters of varied housing units 226 units Pond Country Club, pool, etc. One hole of the golf course and the putting green PHASE II 17 housing clusters I92 Three holes of the golf course Commercial area 30,000 sq. ft. PHASE III 13 housing clusters l49 Multiple residence 198 Final two holes of golf course Mr. Handler continued with an outline of the taxes that could be received by the Town from this development. He compared this develop ment to the Town's standard R-15 area equalization rate of $37.37 per thousand of assessed valuation, plus water and sewer benefits. The Beacon Hills Development will have a density of 4.6 units per acre, the standard subdivision without apartments is 2,1. The total tax income based on our (the Town's) equalization rate and the best judgment that Beacon Hills has is $436,000 as opposed to $341,000 on a standard subdivision. There would be 2,480 people vs. 1,462 in a single family development. Students - 536 vs. 546. School tax - $635 in a standard vs. $487 in Beacon Hills. Automobiles - 9^0 vs. 702 in a standard. Length of dedicated road in Beacon Hills is 782 feet vs. 2,480 feet of road in a standard subdivision which the Town has to maintain. r - ^ - August 28, 1972 Mr. Handler continued with his comparison of the Beacon Hills Develop ment and its plus features as opposed to the standard development. There will be more usable open space, more convenient commercial and service areas, the traffic flows will be cut down because of the cul- de-sacs, site preservation such as good use of trees, retention of topography, etc. The plan is in conformance with existing master plans of the Town iand the Zoning Ordinance, The project provides a way of life rather than Just another housing project. Further, they compared 12 existing P,U,D, developments, avoiding the ones in Cali fornia because of their enormous size. The average P.U.D. is 7.1 units per acre - Beacon Hills is 4.6. The cost of rentals or sales moderate to high middle income. Automobile traffic on the site is NOT in relation to the size of the development because of paths, private roads, etc. There are three entrances and exits. The road patterns are designed to avoid short-cuts to discourage through Traffic and high-speed traffic. Automobiles are hidden on the site by clustered garages. I'he green area wanders all the way through the projebt. There will be no ill effects on the environment; they intend to add to the landscape. In the phasing of the development the early emphasis is on housing and a cross-section of dwellings will be con structed in each phase. The facilities of the development are avail able to outside people. All of the commercial area is buffered and the whole project is visually tied together. The developers have considered public safety. Green goes through the entire project, not Just a park in the middle. No point in the green area is more than 150 f'®et from the dwelling unit. The traffic within the development will be slow. There will be a quality of living not normally found in apartment type living. Mr, Paul Erdman stated that at the present time there is water on Troy Road. There is a pumping station there. The developers expect to tie into these mains. There are sewers up Troy Road, up King Road East and up Ridgecrest Road, As for drainage, the developers recog nize that this is a real problem and they will develop a comprehensive and complete drainage plan. There is a culvert existing along and across Troy Road that will be helpful. They will develop a detailed plan for approval by the Town and the County. Supervisor Schwan now asked if there were any further questions from the Town Board. There were none. Mr. Schwan now opened the public hearing to those present in the audi ence, Mrs, Carol Swift, Juniper Drive Mrs. Swift was not sure of her figures but it seemed to her that there was a 10,000 person differential between the figures presented by the developer and what she felt was the actual. She thought she had heard■the figure of 1,462 people if the zoning were 2 units per acre and2,480 in each of the projects in question. In view of this, she asked exactly what is allowed in an R-15 zone. She understood thatunder present zoning R-15 allowed 2^ houses per acre. Mr. Prancese spoke and stated that she was in error in her use of the 10,000 person figure. There was a difference of less than 100 per sons if the project were under R-15 as opposed to R-30, Mrs. Swift agreed that she was confused by all the numbers being men tioned. Supervisor Schwan Mr, Schwan asked the developer Just how many acres they do own. The reply was 189 acres, Jim Lacey, Troy Road Mr. Lacey was very upset that this developer could be allowed to tie into existing water and sewer lines which the people of South Hillhave paid up to $1,000 and more for. He asked if there is going to be a proposal to pay back the people of South Hill for their expenses incurred in the creation of their water and sewer lines. n n r - 5 - August 28, 1972 Supervisor Schwan Mr. Schwan stated that the Town of Ithaca has dissolved its water and sewer districts. He further stated that as far as this developer is concerned, their land was assessed on January 1972 when they acquired it. They are obligated in no way to pay anybody back. Mr. Lacey Mr, Lacey stated that it is a shame that many people have lost their land because of exorbitant taxes levied on them at the time from the water and sewer charges. Supervisor Schwan Mr. Schwan asked Mr. Lacey just who had lost their land. Mr. Lacey Mr. Lacey replied that nobody really had —^ as yet, ^Councilman Desch Mr. Desch stated that if this project should be developed, then the debt for the water and sewer will be paid off much faster. Mr. Lacey Mr. Lacey asked how many units of water (referring to moratorium) taps are you allocating to this project? Supervisor Schwan Mr. Schwan stated that this project will not come out of the 400 units allocated to the Town for one year. He thought that maybe fifty units could be allocated in the future. Mr. Lacey Mr. Lacey wished to point out a very serious drainage problem on this area. Supervisor Schwan Mr. Schwan stated that the Board is very well aware of the drainage problem as well as the Planning Board. He stated that the Town Board will make no decision on this proposal at this Hearing and before they do, they will walk the land personally. Attorney Gersh Mr. Gersh wished to have it clear that he gave Mr, Prank Liguori (County Planning) and the County proper notice of this meeting. Mr. Herbert Monkemeyer Mr. Monkemeyer expressed concern about the allocation of water taps to this development. He asked specifically if the Town had guaran teed 50 units to this development. Mr. Monkemeyer felt that he had priority in the allocation of any water taps. Supervisor Schwan Supervisor Schwan stated that it has been some time since Mr. Monke meyer has approached the Board with his proposal. However, he stated that Mr. Monkemeyer could still count on his priority. - 6 - August 28, 1972 Mr. James Carey Mr. Carey referred to his letter to the Town of June l4, 1972. Supervisor Schwan iMn Mr. Schwan indicated to Mr. Carey that he falls in another category apart from this Hearing. He assured Mr. Carey that the Town Bo^rd proceeding with the matter concerning him as quickly as possible. Mr. Ellis Erdman Mr. Erdman wished to have the Town Joard take note of the fact that the developers are well aware of tlib water problems of the Town of Ithaca. He stated that they are reteearching the use of artesian wells. Attorney Buyoucos Mr. Buyoucos asked Mr. Erdman if he were going to present a plan show ing artasian wells as an alternative; Mr. Erdman said that they will. Supervisor Schwan Mr* Schwan recalled that this is a Similar situation as the Kennil- W3rth development. It was determined there that wells can only be used so long as water is not available. Mr; Schwan stated further that it should be clear that this project will not spring up over night. it will be built only as fast as they (the deVeloper^ can sell them. pt Mr; Ellis Erdman Mr. Efrdman wished to make it clear also that there Should be no con fusion between phasing and years. The fact that there are three phases does not mean that it will be finished in three years. The financing is being maneiged on the basis of phasing. Mr. Bert Swift^ Juniper Drive Mr, Swift stated that it seems clear then that some of the things promised to someone buying on this development might take ten years to be accomplished. He felt that it was unethical to sell people on an idea that may take years to be fulfilled. Mr. Ellis Erdman Mr. Erdman wished to state that, for instance, the first hole of the golf course is in the first phase for illustrative purposes to show those deciding to locate there the relationship of the land to the clustered housing. Mr. Bill Brown, Ridgecrest Road Mr. Brown said that he would like to know the percentage of the con dominiums that will be rentals. Mr. Erdman answered that they would rent them all. He further stated that all of the first phase at least will be rental. Mr. Richard Creel> Ridgecrest Road Mr. Creel asked why the golf course in its entirety was not in the first phase as it was before. Mr, Erdman replied that it was a matter of economics. He stated that because the multiple part of the project is not in the first phase, the twenty clusters will not support the golf course. Additionally, the developer has been re stricted in the commercial area. r pi r - 7 - August 28, 1972 Mr. Creel also wished to know if the developer is committed to con struct all of the holes of the golf course. Does the Town Board re quire the six holes of the golf course, or, could the developer put houses on the golf course holes at some time, Mr. Francese The Planning Consultant stated that this is not possible. The developer is committed to the approved plan. He is committed to the density of the cluster at 3.5 units per acre and the multiple at 11.1 units per acre. Mr. William Messmer, Coddington Road Mr. Messmer wished to inquire about the pond. He wondered what would happen if it turned out that the pond could not be built. Mr. Handler, the arthitect, noted that liners could be used to construct the pond if there were difficulties. Mr. Harold Smithy 509 Coddington Road IMr. Smith wished to relate a story to the Town Board concerning a monument that was demolished on his property dUring the construction <of the original water and sower district; These lines run right under Ihis property. It seems that the trucks and other equipment destroyed ."his marker. At this point, both Mr. James Buyoucos and Mr. Schwan stated that his monument will be put back. Water and sewer benefit *was assessed after the dissolution resolution to part of his land. Mr. Smith was erroneously told prior to the referendum that he would have no benefit. Mr, Smith continued by stating that all the water from this development must come across his property. He has previous ly lost about 30 acres of his land. He wondered if his 30 acres is flooded, is it still considered to be accessible? The matter was not pursued. Mr. Wilkinson, 316 East King Road Mr. Wilkinson wondered just how many square feet will be black top roads because when you put in black-top the run-off is increased. He estimated about 80,000 square feet on the ring road, plus the paths. Mr. Paul Erdman Mr. Erdman stated that there would be retainers and also the pond would be there to absorb water. Mr. James Carey, 61O Coddington Road Mr. Carey presented a Petition to the Town Board signed by approxi mately 180 residents of South Hill opposing the rezoning of the Beacon Hills property in order that they might develop the land. The Petition read: "TO: THE TOWN BOARD OP ITHACA WE, the undersigned residents of the Town of Ithaca, OPPOSE the proposed rezoning from R-30 to R-I5 cluster of I62 acres and of 18 acres from R-30 to Multiple Residence, along King Road East and Troy Road, as well as the 10 Acres of the south side of King Road East from R-30 to Commercial, all as proposed for the "Beacon Hills" devel opment, and as recommended by the Town of Ithaca Planning Board on August 1, 1972, for the following reasons: (1) Housing unit density in the area would be thereby in creased by over 2.4 times the presently permissible (R-30) density. Present home owners in the area built or bought their homes relying upon the existing zoning limitations to less than that density. r - 8 - August 28, 1972 (2) The existing and probable future character of the area (viz. mostly single-family homes on 30,000 sq, ft. lots under R-30) would be adversely affected by this encroachment of more intensely- developed housing, multiple housing and commercial zones, as it would substantially lower the value of our existing homes, and would seri ously increase burdens of traffic, congestion, and drainage. (3) No one has demonstrated any real need for this intense use in this location, nor that it fits any comprehensive plan of development of the Town* (4) Such a drastic intensification of density-use in such a large area should not be permitted without a referendum among area residents, and without at least a year*s interim waiting period be forehand. The Petition was duly j^resented to the Board and noted. Supervisor Schwan Mr, Schwan stated that this Petition stresses the R-30 Zoning. He wished it to be clear that once water and sewer are available, it is economically necessary to have an area zoned R-15. Mr, Carey added that it did not mean R-I5 cluster. Mr. Schwan stkted that it is the multiple part of the project th^t seems to put the density up. Mr. James Buyoucos^ Attorney Mr. Buyoucos stated thAt it would be most acceptable for the people of South Hill to set up a Committee advising the Town Board. They "would welcome suggestions and plans relative to drainage, density, etc. w 14rs. Johann W. Gebauer, 117 Ridgecrest Road Mrs. Gebauer wished to know the effect this development would have on South Hill School. Mrs, Barbara Holcomb, Chairman, Planning Board ♦Mrs, Holcomb stated that she had spoken with the School Board rela tive to the impact on South Hill School and was informed that they did not anticipate any need for increasing the size of the school. The over-all picture of the district is that there is an excess of space throughout the district. There would be re-drawing of district lines before there would be further construction. Mr. Creel Mr. Creel wondered if there is an excess of space, why does he have a fourth grader in South Hill School with 34 children in the class? Mrs. Holcomb replied that she thought that there are two things mixed up here -- teachers and space. Mr. Bert Swift, Juniper Drive Mr. Swift stated that he wished to speak negatively on the proposed project. He said that he approved of Mr. Buyoucos's suggestion and would propose that the citizens of South Hill get together and come up with some data to be presented to the Town Board. Supervisor Schwan Mr. Schwan stated that there is no intention on the part of the Board to pass for or against this project at this meeting. There is no drainage plan as yet, and the project will not receive an answer until that is presented. If! r n n - 9 - August 28, 1972 Mr, Ellis Erdman, Developer Mr. Erdman voiced his firm objection to the Board's sitting on this proposal and keeping the developer out on a limb. He urgently re quested that the Board give him a decision whether or not they are to be granted the rezoning at this meeting. He suggested that such a decision could be contingent on an acceptable drainage if it is R-15 cluster and let them go forward with selling lotsi Supervisor Schwan Mr. Schwan stated that there was some misunderstanding of the problem here. If there is a drainage problem creeks^ etc*, it will be taken care of. If it were an R-15 subdivision the density would be approximately the same. Mr. Ellis Erdman Mr. Erdman said in view of all this, can 1 say that this is an R-15 zone? Mr. Schwan emphatically said no* He stated further that he doubted that the Board would deny R-»15 zoning; With water and sewer and the underground wiring requirement^ it is not economically feas ible to develop under R-30 zoning. It was Mr. Schwan's opinion that if someone wanted to keep an fefea open and undeveloped they should buy it and leave it undeveloped; Sharon Staz, 117 East King Rofetd stated that South Hill is commonly referq^ed to as "apart ment hill. She referred to the Monkemeyer project which is on the way. She said that there has been no demonstration of need for this development. Also, there has been much discussion about the protec tion of cars inside the development, but what about cars on the way to and from work. She noted that there are only three exits and en trances from the development — one on Troy Road and two on East King Road. She questioned whether the Planning Board and the Town Board ever listen to the people on South Hill. She wondered why do we always concern ourselves with "more" and not with the people who live there. Mr. Gersh^ Attorney Mr. Gersh stated that he thought that Mr, Schwan had answered Miss Staz when he stated that if someone wants to preserve land and keep it open then they should buy it. A developer did buy it. He further stated that the Planning Board, to the credit of Mrs, Holcomb, has gone into such detail and has done such an extensive amount of work so as to get a plan that is in the best interest of the people. The plan has been revised extensively. Since June there have been five hearings. Mr. James Carey Mr. Carey said that he felt it was necessary to project this whole issue beyond South Hill. He said that Mr. Gersh calls the people of South Hill fearful people, and he said that this is probably correct -- they are fearful of a PandorA's box that could open the entire Town to overdevelopment, Mr, Carey further stated that R-15 is nothing more, nothing less than, multiple housing under another name. ,If the Town can amend R-15 to cluster on South Hill, they can anywhere in the Town. Mr, Ellis Erdman Mr, Erdman read from two articles in the New York Times from the year 1967 in which Heritage Village was honored by receiving a first award for development of homes. He wished to point out that this develop ment is not just another building project. 1^9 n n - 10 - August 28, 1972 Mr. Harold Smith Mr. Smith stated that he appreciated Mr. Erdman's comments and he asked if the same opportunity for cluster housing will be available to anyone else. Mrs. Barbara Holcomb, Chairman, Planning Board Mrs. Holcomb felt that there was a misunderstanding here. It is quite apparent that in any Zoning Law cluster housing can be allowedi The density cannot be increased over the density allocated in an R-15 zone. The only thing that can be increased is the green area. Mr. Peter Francese, Planning Consultant Mr, Francese stated that theoretically this same developed could build one building 10 storeys high right in the middle of the area and leave all the rest of the land green, so long as the over-all density of the acreage involved was not more than allowed. Cluster is not a substi tute for building houses in rows along a road; Mr. Ellis Erdman, PevelQper Mr. Erdman wished to add that all of the wiring and eVen the TV lines will be buried. There will not everi be I'V anntennae Visible. Supervisor Schwan Mr. Schwan wished to add to Mr. Francese's statement by pointing out that the golf course and the pond are in the plans because of the use of the cluster approach to development. Mr. Harold Smith Mr. Smith stated that one cannot ignore the multiple section of the project. Supervisor Schwan stated that it is not greater than R-15 with cluster at its greatest density. Miss Sharon Staz Miss Staz felt that perhaps the people here were hearing but not listening. She stated that it was her reading of what the people present were saying was that they think it is beautiful and I might like to live in it, but I do not want to live next door to it. She further raised objections to the numbers of trucks that would be gen erated during the lengthy construction of this project. Mr. Peter Francese, Planning Consultant Mr. Francese wondered if there would be objection to trucks if this were any other type of development, Mr. Bert Swift Mr. Swift wished the Board to look to the over-all consequences of planning piece by piece. Supervisor Schwan Mr. Schwan stated that the consequences are R-15 zoning. The Town Board does not want to be accused of wasting our land as in other towns. Mr. Creel Mr. Creel said that he would like to remind everybody that there is another apartment development on the other side of King Road in the works. He further stated that if the multiple and the commercial areas were removed he would like the project better. He also stated that he would very much like to see a three-dimensional mock-up. He felt that Heritage Village sounded great. - 11 - August 28, 1972 Mr. Ellis Erdman, Developer Mr, Erdman said that if the Town Board gives its approval, the Plan ning Board has to sit on every plan they present as the project goes along. He further stated that it was a matter of money -- how can the developer go to the extent to which everyone is talking if they ^ do not have any approval whatsoever. He stated that they do intend j to make a model. He asked if the Town Board had ever had a model presented on any project. Mr, Schwan stated that they had had a model for Eastern Heights. Mr, Swift Mr. Swift agreed that the project was beautiful and that he agreed with the cluster condept. However, he was very concerned with the school. He stated that he particularly chose to live on South Hill because it has a varied enrollment. Supervisor Schwan Mr, Schwan stated that when the development of the northeast part of the Town was takihg places there was only one school -- Cayuga Heights, It was very old and outdated. Since that time Cayuga Heights school ha.s been partly torn down and rebuilt and the Northeast School was buiilt to house 60O children. Mr, Swift Mr. Swift felt that the times have changed. There was a difference in the philosophy of spending money for schools then, Mr. Schwan stated that it was his opinion that the school district builds schools as they are needed — after the fact. They do not build a school and then wait for it to be filled up. Mr. James Buyoucos, Town Attorney Mr, Buyoucos stated for the record that this type of question cannot be submitted by the Town Board for a referendum. The Town Board is delegated the power by the State to make decisions. Only specific items defined by the State Legislature must be subject to referendum. However, the people can come in and make their opinions known and make specific points for consideration by the Town Board. Legally this project cannot be submitted to a referendum. Mr. Buyoucos also wished to ask Mr, Erdman one question. He stated that the developer is assuming that every unit will be rented, at least in Phase I. He wanted to know just what the number of persons per unit will be. Mr, Erdman stated that there will be no studio apartments and no three bedroom apartments. The average number of people per unit in a one bedroom unit is just under two; in a two bedroom unit it is about two and a half, Mr. Buyoucos asked if the developer envisioned renting to more than two unrelated individuals in any unit. Mr. Erdman stated that he did not. Mrs. James Carey 1 Mrs. Carey stated that many developers have been faced with the |_ problem of not renting the units as easily as thought. She also stated that the total density of unrelated people is three in a two- family unit. Mr, Creel Mr. Creel urged the Town Board to protect the morale of the people on South Hill, He asked the Board to keep in mind that the South Hillers* morale is going up and the Board should be aware of this. Supervisor Schwan Mr, Schwan reminded the people that the Town Board was very much aware of the South Hill people as shown by the Board's action in the water and sewer dissolution in July, 1971. r r - 12 - August 28, 1972 Mr, James Buyoucos, Town Attorney Mr. Buyoucos wished to inake sure that everyone present understood the cluster concept. He repeated that in terms of density, there could not be a higher density as a result of cluster, Mr, Creel For clarification, Mr, Creel asked Mr, Schwan if he were correct in stating that the density would be the same in cluster but the differ ence would be in the total project including the multiples Supervisor Schwan Mr. Schwan replied that Mr; Creel was correct, Mr, Schwan recalled that Ceracche proposed a cluster housing development on 100 acres of land on the Mecklenburg Road in I968, tJnder R-15 zoning he was allowed 210 units and under cluster he was allowed 210 units. How ever, the people in the area misunderstood the meaning of cluster and petitioned against it; But the project actually died because City water was not available, Mr. Creel Stated that the whole con cept of cluster, standard and multiple is admirably clear and it is the multiple that pushes up density, Mr^ Schwan stated that that was not the points The point is that the area proposed for multiple has to be rezoned for multiple, Mrs, Barbara Holcomb, Chairman, Planning Board Under present zoning and also under new proposed zoning there is what is termed a.floating zone -- multiple. In any residential zone — that is, all three types, after due consideration and based on its merits, you can have a multiple zone. It is still possible to have a multiple zone anywhere, Arthur L, Berkey, Christopher Circle Mr, Berkey noted that at present the property is zoned R-30, He ask ed for an explanation about it becoming R-15 when water and sewer is available. He wanted particularly to know whether it is mandatory or permissive, Mrs, Holcomb stated that it is permissive. It is a Health Department requirement to have R-30 when no water and sewer is available, R-15 is proper when water and sewer are available. As areas in the Town have been developed the Ri-30 zone is diminishing. Presently the Health Department is requiring much more than 30,000 sq, ft, because of the percolation of the land in the Town, Mr. Berkey continued and said that presently there are 162 acres in this development zoned as R-30 and the Town Board must rezone this area. He asked what data does the Town Board have to show that there is a sufficient need to justify this zoning change? Mrs, Holcomb stated that there are two parts to this question. The Planning Board has recommended a rezoning from R-30 to R-155 and, they have looked with favor upon the development of the multiple and commercial areas, Mrs. Holcomb stated further that the Planning Board does not have the power to say that a particular development can go ahead because of need, Mr, Berkey repeated that the Planning Board has not considered the first question of need, Mrs, Holcomb stated that that is not within the jurisdiction of the Planning Board, to reject a plan be cause of a particular Board's decision that there is no "need". The Planning Board has said that this plan is satisfactory for develop ment, after extensive consideration, because somebody bought the land and wants to develop it. Mr, Berkey asked just why it should be changed now and Mrs, Holcomb replied that it is because water and sewer is available. Supervisor Schwan Mr, Schwan stated that in effect the R-30 zoning is meaningless here, Mr, Creel Mr, Creel stated that the R-30 zone is not meaningless to the people because it assures a certain lot size. - 13 - August 28, 1972 Councilman Desch Mr. Desch pointed out that since the land is now under consideration for development and water and sewer is available the R-I5 zone becomes the proper zoning. Mr. James Carey Mr, Carey said that it could be developed economically under R-30. He referred to a neighbor who just bought land up there to develop. Mr. Schwan pointed out that the person referred to has purchased a lot which fronts on an existing road and on a water and sewer pipe, and also in that case since he bought one lot he could have overhead wiring. Councilman Desch Mr. Desch stated that strip development would be very difficult up there because the Beacon Hills land is land locked. It is much more desirous to have a big development rather than one at a time or four at a time. Mrs. Holcomb agreed and referred to the land values now as opposed to previous years. Mr. Arthur L* Berkey Mr. Berkey referred to the Forest Home area where the Town is taking over a road and two bridges. The Town took over the road and bridges from the State. In the future fepairs must be done by the County. This was all done to allow the Town to maintain a one-way bridge. He stated that the same kind of consideration accorded to the people of Forest Home must be given to all groups in the Town. ADJOURMBI^ The Public Hearing was closed at 10:00 p.m. by Supervisor Schwan. Respectfully submitted. Nancy M. Fuller Acting-Secretary