Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutTB Minutes 1989-01-12TOWN OF ITHACA SPECIAL BOAPD MEETING January 12, 1989 At a Special Meeting of the Town Boaird of the Town of Ithaca, Tarpkins Coimty, New York, held at The Mayers School, 1251 Trumansburg Road, Ithaca, New York, on the 12th day of January, 1989, there were: PRESENT: Noel Desch, Supervisor Henry McPeak, Councilman Shirley Raffensperger, Councilwanan Robert Bartholf, Councilman Patricia Leary, Councilwoman David Klein, Councilman ALSO PRESENT: Robert Flumerfelt, Town Engineer John Barney, Town Attorney PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE The Supervisor led the assemblage in the Pledge of Allegiance. PUBLIC HEARING TO CC^SIDER A LOCAL LAW REZONING A 15.86 ACRE PORTION OF TOWN OF ITHACA TAX PARCEL NO. 6-24-4-14.2, LOCATED AT 1290 TRUMANSBURG ROAD, 48.86 ACRES TOTAL, FROM RESIDENCE DISTRICT R-15 TO BUSINESS DISTRICT "B", AND WITH RESPECT TO THE PROPOSED REZONING OF A 12 ACRE PORTION OF SAID TAX PARCEL FROM RESIDMCE DISTRICT R-15 TO MULTIPLE RESIDENCE DISTRICT Proof of posting and publication of a notice of a public hearing to consider a local law rezoning a 15.86 acre portion of Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 6-24-4-14.2, located at 1290 Trumansburg Road, 48.86 acres total, fixxn Residence District R-15 to Business District "B", and with respect to the proposed rezoning of a 12 acre portion of said tax parcel from Residence District R-15 to Multiple Residence District having been presented by the Town Clerk, the Supervisor opened the public hearing. Supervisor Desch stated that the focus of tonights hearing will be the traffic information that has been discussed back and forth with seme disputes on numbers, seme disputes on inpacts and secondly the matter of low income housing v^ch is a rather new aspect that came out of the special meeting we had on September 28, 1988. He stated that he was sure there were a number of questions that people have to bring before the Board. He stated that he would like to ronind folks to address their questions to the Board and vrfiat he would try to do is: If there are questions involving the developer or various members of the staff, he wDuld try to bring the right person in to give the answers. The first order of business will be the subject of the traffic information. The architect has pursued that matter further and brought forth seme information. The first step, he felt, that was appropriate was for the developer/consultant to make a brief presentation of those figures. Robert Leathers, Architect for the developer stated that after the last meeting they decided that in fact the only way they could have a clear handle on \tot the traffic is doing is to hire a consiiltant v^o could in fact be objective and could give them information that Town Board Minutes 2 January 12, 1989 would answer a lot of the questions that have been arising. In looking at the traffic, there are three ways that you can look at the traffic, three critical issues involved here. One, the traffic that actually would be increased or decreased in the Octopus. Two, viiat it will do to the traffic as in fact it is going to be existing and entering the hospital grounds. And three, the traffic that is actually going to be proceeding through the intersection or in and out of the developnent. The later of these, in other words the one that addresses v^ether or not the traffic would change and be altered as far as the flow of traffic. He stated that he should mention that all three of these, we were looking at with three different aspects to these. One, vdiat is it today? Two, \diat would it be if the present zoning were in fact used and it was developed? In other words it was just housing put on this land, single family housing. Three, vhat would happen if in fact it was developed as proposed with a ccmbination cormercial and multi-family housing? Mr. Leathers went on to say, let him address the first two that he mentioned before. One, v^at would happen as far as the traffic at the Octopus? The Traffic Consultant found that if in fact the property is developed with the combination of multi-family and commercial that the amoimt of additional traffic at the Octopus would be less than if the property were to be developed as a single family residential. Relative to that, cosrparing the proposed development to existing conditions it would indeed increase the traffic at the Octopus. But the increases were very minor which means in v^at Tony did was look at rush or peak hours. For instance, in the morning hours it was foimd that there would be an increase of six vehicles proceeding North at that peak hour and twenty vehicles proceeding South. Given the total coimt at the Octopus at that hour that is a very minimal impact on the Octopus. The second related issue, the traffic as it exits and enters the hospital, it was found that there would be no delay for exiting and entering the hospital grounds. So therefore it would have no iirpact on the hospital entrance. The third issue, a much more conplicated one, will there be delays in the traffic as it flows on 96? The level of service, in other words \^ether or not in fact this is an acceptable delay is measured by "A", "B", "C", "D", "E" different categories. The categories for the flow of traffic did not change on any of the hours or any of the conditions or any of the various forms of traffic. Now that doesn't mean there weren't delays, frankly. It means that the categories meaning for instance, there is a "B" category vdiich is acceptable and in fact reasonably good category did not change because that goes frcm a certain seconds to another seconds. The actual delays, the best way to lock at it is to say v^t was the maximum delay, the stop delay at the maximum time was for the North bound traffic on 96 in the afternoon peak hour. And there would be an increase frcm the present or existing conditions of approximately five seconds, 5.1 seconds to be precise. That is ccnparing it with existing conditions. If in fact it was developed as all single family housing, and you ccmpared the ccstmercial multi-family to the single family housing there would be a delay of 2,4 seconds on the stop delay on that same North bound traffic. So we are talking about minimal increases in delays as well. In both of those cases and those are the worst case conditions. So based on that we felt that that answered the concerns on traffic and yes, even though there were delays these were not excessive and not unacceptable. That summarizes vtot was in that report. George Vignaux, 1470 Trumansburg Road asked if that was an average based upon a certain nimiber of cars vdiich you came up with the 5.1 second delay? TOny Richardson replied, yes that was the average delay. Tcfwn Board Minutes 3 January 12, 1989 Mr. Vignaux asked, how many cars was that based on? Mr. Richardson replied, all the people going through the intersection. Mr. Vignaux remarked, if 1,000 cars are going through the intersection and 999 are not delayed at all but one of them get held up by traffic turning into the new development and that one has to sit for fifteen minutes and you are averaging it into 1,000 cars you come up with 5.1 seconds. Is that how you did your figures. Mr. Richardson replied, that was an average, yes. Mr. Vignaux replied, so there could very v^ll be substantial delays for isolated cars, with other cars moving at the normal rate. Mr. Richardson replied the average doesn't come out as obscured as that. There are quite a few vdiicles that go through without delay. An increase of 19 seconds to 24. That's an average delay of 19 seconds. A person in attendance asked, did you make your study in good weather or bad weather? During vhat season? Supervisor Desch asked Mr. Richardson to come front and introduce himself. Mr. Richardson introduced himself, saying he was Tony Richardson and that he worked in the Department of Civil Engineering at Cornell but he wished to point out that his involvonent here was not through Cornell. His involvement is as an independent consultant. He stated that he was also doing a County traffic study and traffic survey and this was totally independent of that survey and study. Lee Schafrik, 1491 Trumansburg Road stated, we have at the bottom of the hill presently something that was designed for vho knows what vhich causes traffic delays exceeding the entrance to the hospital at times. It was designed to meet certain standards vhen in was put in in 1965 or '66. The time delays that you are talking about is at todays traffic, \hat happens tomorrow? What happens five years from now? Do we have another octopus out there in six years? Mr. Richardson replied, all of the analyses were done on the basis of the inpact today rather than trying to project vhat might happen ten years from now. Mr. Schafrik replied, that is not planning is it, if we plan for today? Jane Schafrik, 1491 Trumansburg Road stated that she would just like to ask Mr. Richardson if he tried to drive through the Octopus last Friday morning and would his projections be the same if he did. She stated that she left her house at 25 minutes of 9:00. She stated that her house is one mile and four-tenths past the hospital and three miles from the foot of the hill. She arrived at her office on North Cayuga Street at 9:15. That's forty-five minutes or more to get four miles in solid traffic lines. Coming out of her driveway she was in a line of traffic that was stopped at the light at the hospital vhich could not proceed because the traffic in front of it was stopped for the light at the bottan of the hill. She stated that she was very much interested in the 5.1 seconds delay. Town Board Minutes 4 January 12, 1989 Mr. Richardson replied that he does not use the road. Mrs. Schafrik asked if the projection was made on a corputer? Mr. Richardson replied, yes. Supervisor Desch stated that he vould like to point out that in conjunction with the Neiderkom Study, Mr. Richardson did do a pretty detailed traffic analyses of that v^ole corridor so this is not a foreign environment that he was working with. Athena Grover, 1486 Trumansburg Road asked Mr. Richardson if his study was made during good weather like summer or was it made during the winter? In the summer we have extensive tourists here, even in the evening there is activity at Cass Park v^ere they have to have a policeman down there to direct traffic. So vdiat is your answer to that? Mr. Richardson replied, the survey of the traffic was done on November 9, 1988. The predictions of traffic increases and traffic volumes from development was based on the national average standards published by the Institution of Transportation Engineers. Celia Bowers, 1406 Trumansbuirg Road stated that she had a four page report and that she had had lengthy conversations with Bruce Brittain v^o unfortunately has the flu and is a colleague of Tony Richardson and has been on the phone because he is sick, helping me to make the presentation because he disagreed very strongly with the conclusions that Mr. Richardson has reached. He is also a resident of Ithaca. He is also a traffic expert and she did feel that it was perhaps as the Board has got an input frcm one hired consultant vdio is an expert in the field that they should also have the benefit, even though Mr. Brittain can't be here in person, of the other side of the picture. S\:55ervisor Desch remarked that he assumed the developer had your information that you presented at the September meeting. Mrs. Bowers replied, actually vtot happens is she had been trying ever since she heard that Mr. Richardson did a stu^, she called him immediately and Mr. Richardson, as a hired consultant was hired by Mr. Leathers could not give me this information about the study. She then called a Board member v^o very nicely asked Sue Beeners to xerox her v^t they had in the Town. Which actually was not, v^en she got it two days ago, was not a copy of Mr. Richardson's study vAiich makes things very hard because it's very hard to contradict scmething v^ien you don't have all the facts and figures. But it was Mr. Leathers outline of vdiat Mr. Richardson had said. She stated that she was afraid that was all she was able to get a hold of and that is vAiat she is responding to. Supervisor Desch remarked, your four pages is related to strictly traffic? Mrs. Bowers replied, one hundred percent. Supeirvisor Desch asked Mrs. Bowers if there was anyway she could summarize it? Mrs. Bowers replied, let me say this, she thought Mr. Leathers spoke for just over five minutes and if she spoke for just over five minutes shut her off. Mrs. Bowers remarked, this was done this afternoon, it's rough but she thought seme of Idie facts ought to come before the Board. 135 Warren Road Ithaca, NY 1^50 Janijary 13» 1989 JAN I 7 UbJ Dear Ithaca Tcun Board HezDber, Due to a continuing bout with the flu, I felt it inappropriate to attend the Town Board hearing held at the Mayer School on January 12, 1989 concerning the proposed Kyong Development, I understand that Celia Bowers spoke at this meeting and attributed certain remarks to me, 1 have not yet heard the tapes of this meeting, nor have 1 seen the tran scription, but from talking to several people who attended the meeting, I have a general idea of what was said. I would like to take this oppor tunity to set the record straight, • I have had no formal training in traffic engineering, and would never attempt to pass myself off as an expert in this field, • I conducted no analysis of traffic on West Hill, When informed by Celia that she had come up with niarabers which differed from Tony Richardson's, I simply recommended that she discuss this matter with Tony in an attempt to resolve the discrepancies, • I know Tony to be a thorough and conscientious traffic engineer, I feel that his honesty and integrity are beyond reproach, I would be deeply offended if remarks attributed to me implied other than the statements detailed above, I sincerely regret any incon venience or damage to professional reputation that this episode may have caused. Sincerely, Bruce Brittain xci Gene Ball Susan Beeners Celia Bowers Mrs, Song Kyong Robert Leathers Tony Richardson John & ffyrtle Whit comb Town Board Minutes 5 January 12, 1989 Mrs. Bowers then stated that she would like to cxxnnent briefly on the traffic study carried out by Mr. Richardson vdio is a private consultant hired by Bob Leathers. She stated that she would like to stress that he is a private consultant because several people have called her saying they thought he had sane connection with Cornell but he has already very honestly said yes indeed he does. She stated that she had absolutely no doubt that Mr. Richardson's ability to cotpute traffic figures is one hundred percent excellent. However, she stated that she did have several reservations about the methodology v^ch he used to acquire his data. And the stands of objectivity \^ich he has assumed to take the latter point first. Mr. Richardson is a paid eitployee of Mr. Leathers and Mrs. Kyong v^o have of course a vested interest in proving that their proposed shopping mall and multi residence apartments will not adversely affect traffic at the intersection — at any place in Ithaca actually. For exanple, the Town Board did not hire Mr. Richardson, the Town Board has, one presumes, no vested interest in this matter, it would have been better in her opinion for this study to have been hired out by an iirpartial body. The trouble with having the developer hire sonebody is that Mr. Richardson's first input into the study would have cone from people vdio have a vested interest in the result. This can be of great iirportance, for example Mr. Richardson assessed the car trips per day irtpact of the Kyong land developnnent R-15 zoning at 940, she had romded the figures. She stated that she personally using the same research books that he used estimated the number of extra car trips per day generated by R-15 zoning at 650. A difference of over 30% or almost 300 car trips per day. She stated that \^en she asked Mr. Richardson on the phone last night how he cotputed the density of houses allowed under Town of Ithaca R-15 zoning, he replied the Kyong developers gave him a figure v^ch he used in making that corputation. Now, vdien she made that computation she called Mr. George Frantz v^o gave excellent lanbiased and Ithaca specific information. In fact because of the particular kinds of infrastructures \diich are required in the Town of Ithaca R-15 density is considered to be no more than 2.2 houses per acre, hence Mr. Richardson's figures for R-15 development are 300 more than vdiat Mr. Frantz says. Now she stated that she preferred to deal with Mr. Frantz figures because she felt he was inpartial, he is hired by the Town, he has no vested interest. And he is also giving us Ithaca specific figures. One can't blame Mr. Richardson for being mislead but it is the kind of thing that can happen when somebody vho has a bias point of view hires somebody else to do a study. Mrs. Bowers went on to say that she found Mr. Richardson's figures as the inpact of traffic at the Octopus equally dubious. Mr. Richardson claims that the mall plus 60 apartment imits would generate fewer car trips per day at the Octopus in rush hour then would the 61 houses allowed at that site under R-15 zoning. Again, she believed he falls into error of generalizing from other localities, he says that only six cars would go through the Octopus from Ithaca to the Kyong project in peak rush hour traffic from 7:00 to 8:00 in the morning. Now vtei she spoke to him last night, she said you know you are going to have twenty shops there, the major population in the Ithaca area is in the City. Isn't it likely that the people vdio are hired to work in these shops will be coming through the Octopus and going to work and hitting rush hour traffic. Well Mr. Richardson then pointed out that most shops don't open until 10:00 so the assumption was that the people working in these stores would not be meeting rush hoiar traffic. However, she stated that she did have a shop, and that she had hired people, one does not in fact ask ones employees to ccme to ones store at the time one is planning to open the doors, one has to be there for deliveries, one has to be there for cleaning people, one has to be there for set up, display of goods, vdiatever. Town Board Minutes 6 January 12, 1989 this kind of thing takes time. Again, in this particular study in this particular place for this particular town, she believed that his figure of six people caning to the mall betv^sen 7:00 and 8:00 in the morning is probably absurd. She stated that she did not believe that one can indeed make any accurate predictions because one doesn't know viiat stores are going to be in that mall, one doesn't know vtot hours they are going to have, one doesn't know how many employees these people are going to have. Si:pervisor Desch asked Mrs. Bowers vdiat was the number she gave corparing it with the six? Mrs. Bowers replied that she could not ccme up with a number because she did not know how many people were going to be working there. She did not know \^en they could be ccming to work. She stated that all she could assert is that if there are twenty stores there the chances are that sane of the people working that are working in the store are going to be ccming from Ithaca. And with her experiences as a retailer, she could assure the Kyongs that people go to work earlier than the store opening. Mrs. Bowers went on to say, now Mr. Richardson's figures, taken frcm the same book, say that \ander R-15 zoning, thirteen people would ccme through the Octopus intersection to the Kyong project during 7:00 and 8:00 in the morning. Now, she stated that she found this impossible to understand and she felt Mr. Richardson tried to explain it to her on the phone, she found his explanation incotprehensible. She stated that she spoke to Mr. Bruce Brittain and he said "ugh". That's not exactly a scientific ccnment but she felt we were talking blind here. She felt we were taking averages frcm other places and applying them to a very specific situation and she did not feel this was the way to get at vdiat is going to happen here. Supeirvisor Desch remarked, that he thought Mrs. Bowers was going to read her statement. Mrs. Bowers replied that she couldn't because she couldn't read her writing. Supervisor Desch requested Mrs. Bowers to try and wind xip her statement. Mrs. Bowers replied, that she was almost finished now. She went on to say that, in addition Mr. Richardson claims that the multiple residence apartment dwellers will generate much less car traffic than the same number of people would if living in their own hones. She stated that she had checked the same volumes that Mr. Richardson is using and indeed, in general, over the vdiole United States of America it is the case that people v^o live in c^>artments travel by car and generate fewer car trips than people vdio live in their own hcmes. If you take the case of New York City you will see v^y this is the case. People vdio live in New York City, they don't own a car, they go out they take a cab or a bus to vdiere they want to go. The figures that Mr. Richardson is using are figures generalized over the whole of New York State or the v^ole of the County. But we are not an urban center, we are, I mean, this is a rural area. If people live in the Kyong apartments and they don't have a car they have an option of using a taxi \diich is very expensive in the Town or getting a bus. Now the bus service here starts at 6:45 and ends at 5:30 P.M., okay? She stated that she did not think that a lot of people are going to want to live in Kyong apartments viiere there will be no restaurants, no cinema, giving up all possibility of interaction after 5:30 at night with out all this extra expense of calling a cab or calling a friend to drive them places. She felt that in this situation, in a rural Town Board Minutes 7 January 12, 1989 situation rural apartments you will find the same number of residents will be driving cars and causing traffic iitpact as would be causing traffic iitpact if they lived in single family hcmes. So in conclusion, Mr. Richardson has, she believed, done a very s\:perficial and very generalized study based on sanevdiat dubious data at times. This is not an independent accurate detailed picture of a particular place with specific demographic and geographic features. Route 96 and the neighborhood of West Hill is not average place USA. It is an individual mix of hills and lake, college. City, Octopus, medical facilities. Mr. Richardson's study deprives us of this individuality and is thus fatality flawed. She stated that she would like publically to thank Bruce Brittain for his efforts. Mr. Leathers replied, \dien in fact we contacted Tony (Mr. Richardson) we wanted to contact Tony sinply to get this objective opinion. It is inappropriate for the Board to hire scatieone or at least the Board hadn't suggested that, we would have been glad to have the Board hire sanebody. He was sure Mrs. Kyong would have been more than happy to have someone on the Board other than her hire someone. But the fact is, he pointed out even though he (Mr. Leathers) had stated this in the beginning that he would be objective and he had to be objective and Mr. Leathers felt he had been. And he felt that most knew Mr. Richardson well and know the work he has done in this community and he did not feel it was at all fair what has been said that he was not going to be objective. We gave him the most accurate information we could find too and we did not distort that information in any fashion. And yes, he does have to use standards but vdiat else can you rely on and he certainly did make it locally specific. He always does, he is a professional and Mr. Leathers felt Mr. Richardson was the best that could be found anyvhere, anyvhere near here. Mr. Leathers stated that he felt that the information that he put together was accurate and very well done. Town Planner Susan Beeners stated that she just wanted to clarify v^at is permitted in R-15 districts. Ms. Beeners stated that 2.2 to 4.4 units per acre is the range. 2.2 units per acre is a lot developed with a single family house, 4.4 if there was an accessory apartment in each house and so one should understand those figures. Mrs. Rosalind Grippi asked, how many houses in an R-15 zoning can be built on that acreage because of course there has to be roads, etc. Town Planner Beeners replied, the 2.2 to 4.4 is how we calculate and that includes not only the lot but also the share of the 60' road right-of-way and a share of the potential open space dedication with that. Ben Bqynton, Wilkins Road stated that he would just like to make a ccmment, the study Mr. Richardson did he did not believe took into account the negative trips that he personally would have to make downtown for a quart of milk and things of that sort. He stated that he would not be doing that six or seven miles that he ordinarily did if there is seme sort of service facility, nor will the people who are patients or professionals at hospital have to go downtown for lunch. It will be convenient for a lot of people. He felt that seme of the ronarks that have been made tonight are boardering on libellous and he wished that it were not so. He ccmplimented Mr. Richardson on his study and he hoped that Mr. Richardson would continue to serve us here. Mr. Richardson replied that there are two types of negative trips, one they did take account is allowed for in the standards. We did not take into account the number of trips that weren't on that road Town Board Minutes 8 January 12, 1989 that would have gone sonie\^ere else but in fact are now going there. They are actually a new trip on that adjoining road but we didn't subtract those trips fixjm vdiatever roads they were on at the itonent. Chris Gail, 337 DuBois Road, Town of Ulysses, stated that regarding their being no iirpact on egress or entrance to the hospital, she stated that it was her understanding that vdien there are opposing turns that in general it has an effect of slowing down all approaches to an intersection. She stated that she had been trying to keep a close track of the alignment of the proposed roads through the proposed development vdiich has sort of been all over the map. She asked if any of the figures that were used based on an alignment of a roadway with hospital entrance or did they all assume that the roadway into the proposed development would be located not directly oj^site to the hospital entrance. Mr. Richardson replied, all of the calculations were based on the assuription that the roadway would ccme in the hospital entrance, at the signal, primarily at the best entrance from a safety point of view. Normally you would try not to bring a development road onto a main road unless you are coming into a signalized intersection v^ere you have seme control. Ms. Gail replied, so if that was the area how do you esqjlain that there would be opposed left hand turns and yet that would not slow down traffic coming in and out of the hospital? Mr. Richardson replied, there is a minor effect on the traffic coming out of the hospital turning left. But no significant effect. Gouncilwcman Raffensperger stated that she had a question about the information that you started with. She stated that she had raised scatie questions before from the narrative we have from the developer and she stated that she would really like to check and see v^ether or not this is the base data you used so that we can understand it better. She went on to say, in the narrative the total of 150 persons or 2.5 persons per unit is used for the multiple, for R-15 the projection is 3.2 persons per \anit plus an apartment of 1.8 or 5.0. She stated that she had raised her concern about these figures many times in the past but in the Town of Ithaca it would be very unusual to have an R-15 zone that had that many units with an average of 5.0 persons per lot. She stated that vdiat she wanted to be assured of is that this is not the base data that you used to make these projections for traffic. Mr. Richardson replied, the R-15 residence occupancy was 2.5, that was county wide average also. There was nothing that had an occupancy of 5. Gouncilman Klein asked, vhat density per acre? How many units per acre? Mr. Richardson replied no, in terms of density per acre the R-15 was about 2.5 residences per acre and assuming a 12.5% of the residences would have apartments so in fact it comes up to about 3.0. Mr. Leathers remarked, vhat happens as mentioned before by Ms. Beeners, we used 2.5 frankly based on the 15,000 feet which is allowed per lot, that is the allocation. We then took into allowance for road and vhatever. How you look at those roads can affect what you ccme up with. There is a minor difference between that 2.4 and 2.5, we did ccme up with a slightly different calculation but it was very, very close. We did not give him Tcfwn Board Minutes 9 January 12, 1989 numbers of people per unit, we merely gave him the number of units that we would be working with. Councilwanan Raffensperger remarked that Mr. Leathers could see her concern since in this narrative \diich you presented Mr. Leathers replied that he did not know v^ere the number five came frcm, he did not think that Mr. Richardson ever worked with five and they had never given him the five. Councilwoman Raffensperger replied, well it's in your proposal, Mr. Leather replied, five? Oh that goes back vdiat happened was the figiares he was working with were not those figures because we went back and challenged our own figures. Councilwoman Raffensperger replied, this is the question she was asking and in order for the Board to judge the validity of any kind of a study we have to know vtot kind of base data has been used and that was her question. Mr. Leather assured Councilwoman Raffensperger that Mr. Richardson didn't even have those figures. That figure of five wasn't even part of vdiat he did. Supervisor Desch remarked, vdiile we are on that subject of density, vAiat was the average number bedrooms per apartment that is being planned. Mr. Leathers replied, frankly we have not established that. We are probably talking about and average of two. The high side would be frcm three bedroom apartments that we have talked about, there would be scjTie one bedroom apartments and some two bedroom apartments. So the average would be two. Councilwoman Leary asked, how many vehicles did you assume would be generated by the multiple residences? Mr. Richardson replied, the total vehicle trips frcm multi-family dwelling both in and out are 460 trips a day. Councilwoman Leary replied, the morning peak would have 20 cars going through the Octopus, vdiere would the other 440 be going? Mr. Richardson replied that is 460 per day. In the morning peak hour frcm multi-family we are looking at a total of 40 trips. There are two questions, vdien they come out of the developnnent v^ich way do they turn, we assumed that 80% of the work trips would in fact go beyond the Octopus. Now frcm figures he got today that was an over estimate there is actually not going to be that. County wide frcm the survey we had 48% of the trips frcm the West Hill went across the Octopus to work. 52% stayed on this side of the Octopus. Councilwoman Leary asked, how does that figure with only 20 cars an hour in peak time, it seems sort of low. Mr. Richardson replied, yes it is a low number. There are not going to be that many trips generated in that one hour of peak travel. There are not that many units and in fact spread out. Councilwoman Leary remarked, you figured on 460 per day in and out, most of the people will be working, mostly you have to leave during rush hour and come back during rush hour. You say 80% of them are going through the Octopus. Town Board Minutes 10 January 12, 1989 Mr. Richardson replied no, 80% of them will go beyond the Octopus. Rosalind Grippi, 423 East Seneca Street remarked, we are talking about the future and not the present so she was a little puzzled that this is calculated on a basis of a li^t being opposite the hospital but that she had picked up a plan that showed the access to the Kyong property relative to the three different option that may in fact, one of vdiich will be put in place, and none of them show the access to the Kyong property to be directly opposite the hospital light. In fact, one is right next to our property so that even though it feeds the ccmmercial v^ch is at the South end of the Kyong property its on the North end of the Kyong property just South of ours so that the question of v^ere the cars will be coming from as they exit or enter the Kyong property is highly questionable until we get results of the DOT's study and their determination. Doria Higgins, 2 Hillcrest Drive stated that she thought it was extraordinary that tonight, v^tever it is Januaary 12th, you ask v^t the density of this development will be for the entire project. And he answered, we have not established the density. Ms. Higgins remarked that she thought it was appalling that this development has gone through this many stages of discussion involving the public, involving the professional staff and involving yourselves without that question having been addressed until tonight. Mrs. Raffensperger quoted scmething about 2.5 people in the EAF, the EAF language goes scmething like this, it say "lets say its 2.5 people per unit". And then it says "the total could be 155 people per unit". This kind of vague terminology should have been at the very beginning, it should not be now on the night that you are conterrplating voting on this development. John Bowers, 1406 Trumansburg Road remarked that as he understood it there were 460 cars generated on an average per day. Mr. Richardson replied, trips. 230 going out, 230 going back. Mr. Bowers replied fine, now you are saying that at a peak hour, that's sort of an average of roughly 21 an hour or scmething like that throughout the 24 hour day. Yet you are saying that only 20 go in and out at the peak hour. So \diat's happening all the other hours? Could you explain this on the board? He stated that he really don't xmderstand it. Mr. Richardson replied that vtot he said was there were 40 going in and out in the peak hour. Mrs. Bowers remarked that she would like to know the number of cars that are actually going into and out of the Kyong development between 7:00 and 8:00 A.M., the peak morning rush hour under the change in zoning. Mr. Richardson replied, at the entrance to the development on Route 96 there is a total of, including multi-family and cotimercial in the rooming peak, a total of 39 trips entering, 37 trips leaving, between 7:00 and 8:00 A.M. Jan Schafrik asked if there had been any consideration given to the great possibility that the two bedrocm units would be occupied by three unrelated students, either graduate or under graduate students, \^o would each own his own car. Because they would be going at different times of the day back and forth to their classes so there would be the possibly of tripling the nuniber of cars per unit. And also v^ether any consideration is given to the fact that if even a one bedrocm unit was occupied by a married couple, one of Town Board Minutes 11 January 12, 1989 the spouses works North and the other one works scmevdiere in the Ithaca area, vAiere there also would be two cars. Not a single car or one and one half car per unit. Mr. Leathers replied, vdiat is happening is that we certainly feel with a lot of reason that there is not in fact going to be that many students and we are going to be gearing these rentals more towards the working person, particularly in the hospital and that is up on West Hill. Now that is number one in answer to all these students you are talking about, there is no reason to believe and we certainly aren't and Mrs. Kyong from the beginning is not setting up housing for students. Now that doesn't mean seme students might not rent it and we are not going to be prejudiced against students but given the location it is less likely that we are going to have that many students. Secondly, the numbers of cars that we used, we did not determine and Tony did take into account, in fact vhat he might reasonably expect from these types of units given an average of two bedrooms per unit. Jane Schafrik asked if she could respond to that. She stated that she would like to say for the people v^o are here and the members of the Board that she was a full time professional real estate salesperson and she had worked in the business for six plus years. She stated that approximately five times a month she answers telephones for a minimum of three hours. In that period of time she has never had a single request for a rental unit in the Town of Ithaca on West Hill. In Trumansburg, yes. She stated that Tuesday was the last day she answered the telephone, for three hours between 11:00 and 2:00 and that she had five requests for rentals and that all of them were for multi-student housing. She was sure there was a need or there may be a need but it has not been demonstrated and from that point of view she had seme expertise. Roger McCcmber, 1128 Trumansburg Road stated that there were two things here, number one we have a friend, a next door neighbor in the City that they go to Ithaca College. Their parents bought a home in the City he turns it over to the kids and now the City police have all kinds of problems. If the parents put up the money how are you going to stop it? Number two, he did not think anybody had taken into consideration if it going down Wilkins Road, the traffic down Bundy Road, v^t is going to happen at Bundy and 96? Sonehow or other there is going to have to be another light put there because there is no way anybody is going to come out on Bundy Road. Mr. Richardson remarked, this point about the student traffic, if there is student residences at that, students living there, then almost certainly they are not going to be traveling between 7:00 and 8:00 in the morning. Pat Whittle, 271 Bundy Road stated that she would just like to conment on the apartments because she has a building next to her house with apartments and that she had been renting apartments for fourteen years and she loved to rent to working people but she could count on one hand the number of working people, it always is graduate students. We don't like to rent to undergradiaates but graduate students love to live in the Town of Ithaca. There are usually two people in each apartment whether it's a husband and wife or two that aren't related that each have their own apartment, always and there are a lot of cars. Gene Ball, 1317 Trumansburg Road asked, are we planning for the future? We are talking about the present, we have a hospital across the way. He felt that hospital was going to change its cotplexion and he felt the population of Tcmpkins County was going to change tremendously fran all the building that is going on and Tcwn Board Minutes 12 January 12, 1989 in ten years you are going to have a need for expansion in that hospital. You also have services that are sonev^t lacking. You have to go to other regional hospitals to have this kind of service. He stated that he was sure this hospital was going to expand and in this area you are talking about we have not planned or thought about future traffic in that hospital area. He felt it was very disconcerting, you are just talking about one snap in time \^en you put this information together, the future is more irrportant. Supervisor Desch stated that he felt it was time to move on to the question of low income housing. He asked v^o would like to address this question. Doria Higgins stated that before she spoke about low income housing she would like to make the point that she felt this discussion has been based on verbal assurances of v^t the density would be and she felt it should be written into the plan. It should be written into the EAF before the Board votes on it. She stated that she understood that since she handed the Board members a written statement yesterday, that the ordinance has been changed and that now the proposed law reads that formula eight will be used to determine the rent amount for the Kyong low inccme imits. She stated that she would like to make the point that using this formula, v^ether it's written into the ordinance or not would still allow the Kyong's to charge more for the lew inccme units than is currently being charged on West Hill for upper middle inccme units and more than is being charged in the City. She stated that she had checked other places since then so that we knew the other major apartment units in the Ithaca area are charging considerably less than vdiat would be called lew inccme rental on the Kyong thing. She stated that she thought that the vdiole second page of the ordinance vMch deals with low inccme tenants, their characteristics and deals with rental is absolutely meaningless in that it is absolutely unnecessary. Supervisor Desch asked Ms. Higgins if she had shared that information with the developer? Ms. Higgins replied that she had not but that she would share the information with them. Ms. Higgins went on to say, to fool yourselves that you are helping low inccme housing is silly. She stated that she would like to say though because there is one other question, she had three questions that she wanted to bring up. There is one question that Mr. Klein asked when he was on the Planning Board, that Dr. Lesser asked and that she had asked several times, that other people on West Hill have asked you and that is vdiy should you rezone 15.86 acres to ccmmercial "B" for the Kyongs v^en they tell you they only plan to ccnmercially develop 21,000 square feet? And the fact is that once you have rezoned to commercial you will not have any legal leg to stand on in turning them down vdien they reapply to you with proper site plans and ask to develop it ccmmercially. She stated that she has spoken to people in Albany v^o are familiar with these laws and that she had spoken to a person locally, and that he was perhaps the most familiar locally than anyone else. Ms. Higgins remarked that her other question was, vtot do the Kyongs plan to do with that 21,000 square feet? We have been given generalities we do not know and lantil you Icncw v^t is going to happen there, until you know the density you cannot talk about traffic, you cannot decide vhether this development is for the good of the carmunity or not. Jane Schafrik showed rental information on the blackboaird. Copy attached to minutes. Town Board Minutes 13 January 12, 1989 Mr, Leathers replied that the developer certainly does not expect to cone back to the Town and ask thon to pay the difference. The fact is, we have put figures together our figures are not the same as yours and the fact is that we can build these and can in fact make a profit, you have to make a profit to stay in business and rent these at the reduced rent. Frankly, and he stated that he was speaking very honestly, Mrs. Kyong is not the typical developer, in fact she may not make as big a profit in sane things but she really does want to provide affordable housing and she wants to provide affordable housing to low incane people. And is ccnroitted to that because she believes in it. It is a bit different and it may be hard for you to believe but it is the truth and she will rent these. He went on to say that one of the things he might connent about in terms of this vehicle, the equation that has been established. We may find an equation or a vehicle that will even be better later to provide affordable housing to low incane people. And we may be able to develop that in the next few months to actually charge more affordable rents. The point that you are making we are well aware of vdiat they are charging and Mrs. Kyong intends to be carpetitive and to be charging less than they are charging. Supervisor Desch stated that he would like to go back to the question raised on the legal limitation on the number of square feet of canmercial that is permitted. Town Attorney Barney replied, the Town of Ithaca Zoning Ordinance vdiich is probably not the one the people in Albany are all necessarily familiar with, provides that vAien you rezone it must be rezoned in accordance with a general plan and that has to be brought to the Town Board and the general plan that has been presented to the Town Board right now shows 21,000 square feet of carmercial space. For there to be any change in the ccnitiercial space there must be a resubmittal of a new plan and the plan must again be approved by the Town Board. Doria Higgins stated that vtot she wanted to esqilain and she felt a number of people in the audience did not understand was that once that figure for the low incane housing is established and in this case in the Coimty, not just the Kyong development because the Kyong's haven't given any figures, for a person for instance it's $428 a month. Now the low incane person goes to the apartment, v^chever one they chose, and they say this is our rent and the person says this is all he could afford is $200. Once he has established the fact that he is a low incane person then he gets help fran HUD and they pay the rest. So the developer doesn't rent out at that low figure, he rents at the figure he requests. Town Attorney Barney replied, that's subsidized housing and that is not vhat is here. John Bowers asked if there was anything in this ordinance to prevent a student or several students fran caning on and saying we qualify as low incane people, therefore, let us rent one of the apartments? Town Attorney Barney replied, there you are starting to cross over into civil rights areas and the answer in all honesty is there is nothing that would prohibit somebody from, if they were legitimately a low incane person, as a student, fran not being able to qualify. Mr. Bowers replied, several people here have pointed out on the basis of their own experience, that there have not been requests, apparently demand fran low incane people on West Hill for apartments, on the other hand there obviously is sane demand on the Tcfwn Board Minutes 14 January 12, 1989 part of students for apartments on the West Hill. Are these apartments going to end up just going to students? Mrs. Grippi asked, has there been another zoning ordinance like this one for a private developer without subsidy from the government for low income in the Town of Ithaca? In other words, is this the first? This kind of thing \^ch says you give us 25% low income house and we will support you as a condition of you zoning? Town Attorney Barney replied, this is ground breaking. Mrs. Grippi went on to say, number 6 on that zoning ordinance says that if any of this is declared by a court to be illegal or something to this language, then this does not effect the rezoning so that if this isn't tested now they may.... and she stated that she hoped none of the Board members would vote purely... .we may get rezoning without this very sensitive condition of low cost housing....and she felt that may be someone should look into the legalities of this first, if such a contract is legal, she was not sure. But it is puzzling to her, it would be nice majte if it stands but maybe it won't stand mait)e it doesn't stand much of a chance, she was not sure. Town Attorney Barney replied, we are sensitive to that, there are a couple of things that are a little protective from the Town' s standpoint. One is, this was in effect a voluntary grant or act on the part of Mrs. Kyong to offer to do this and the legislation reflects that vdiich he thought would tend to ameliorate the possibility of a court setting it aside. It would be very difficult for someone to come in and say that they had offered to do it, now as part of the legislation they wanted to upset the legislation and take that out of it. Secondly, we have put in a provision that says that in addition to the local law, that we are talking about tonight, that there will be a restrictive covenant inposed on the land that have essentially the same limitations in them. Which is an independent kind of contract that could be enforced not only by the Town but anyone else that was effected adversely if one of those covenants was not followed. But as he had indicated, there was no guarantee in the legal world but from vdiat looking we have done, it's a unique kind of proposition and he thought some people on the Town Board felt it was an opportunity to try and meet an issue that a number of people have been talking about and this is one way to try and do it. Whether it will be 100% successful fifty years from now he didn't think anyone could predict that. Judy Cone, 211 Perry City Road, Trumansburg, New York, in the Town of Ulysses stated that she had not had a chance to look over the new law, she asked if there were any restrictions on the Kyong's, say if the land was rezoned would they be bared in any way from selling this land tomorrow? If the land was sold tomorrow will the restrictive covenant still be in effect and would the low income housing still be in effect? Supervisor Desch replied, the answer is yes. Ms. Cone said her other question was, if they wanted to change the square footage or the density they would have to come before the Board again. If they were, for financial reason or whatever, got into trouble with their development half way through and came back to the Board and said, well we could make it if only we had this, that or the other, the tendency of the Board is to say well we can't let you flounder right now and to give in. It's just common business. So saying this is forever, once that area is rezoned and Town Board Minutes 15 January 12, 1989 then acme back to get a different rezoning is generally pretty easy. Supervisor Desch replied, it may or may not be but you are right it is not forever cast in concrete. Chris Gail remarked that professionally they did a fair amount of business with Ithaca Neighborhood Housing and she knew them very well and she took the opportunity to discuss this proposed issue with Henry recently. She stated that she had discussed with him at length viiether he felt there was a need for low inccroe housing in this location. She stated that she certainly applauded Mrs. Kyong's interest as someone who has done extensive remodeling with the overall effect being to create affordable housing and she certainly welccamed people Tdio had greater resources than herself and most of the rest of the people who have been involved in joining in that ccamraunity wide effort. She thought though realistically seme of things that have been presented involving new construction would cost to initially put in this location at the tax rate of this particular location that we may be looking from a county wide perspective at locating vdiat is very much needed in an inappropriate spot. For instance, vdien we were speaking of traffic earlier it was brought up that it would be very difficult for an average individual to live, even in an apartment, at the proposed development without a car. That in and of it's self has a big iitpact on whether or not the target individual of low inccme is going to be appropriately housed in this kind of locality. It may very well be more appropriate to consider this kind of low inccme proposition somewhere closer to the City limits where walking to and frcam work might be a more reasonable consideration. Again, we can talk in terms of people vdio work at the hospital but quite honestly people \^o work at the hospital are overvdielming professionals. Of course there are seme people in hous^eeping, there are seme people in maintenance but someone with a nurses income, a doctor income is not going to be a low income. Right now Ithaca Neighborhood Housing has extended its target area to include Route 96 quite a ways the hill and if in fact vdiat the Board is interested in is the creating of more low income housing then we need to look more closely at the work the Ithaca Neighborhood Housing has been done in the renovation of existing housing to accommodate low income persons. By and large its a far less expensive way to go, it's almost always less expensive to renovate an existing building then it is to start new from scratch. And in may cases she thought that you also get a better mix in terms of not segregating low income persons in one particular area but distributing them throughout a neighborhood. She thought also that she would want people to consider very closely whether vdiat they are doing is, putting it rather bluntly, back room vdieeling and dealing, if you give us \tot we want in terms of low income housing availability we will give you v^t you want in terras of rezoning for commercial against the expressed interests of the surrounding neighborhood. Celia Bowers remarked that it was her understanding that private rent control was tried in New York City and has been for a period of years, it was her understanding that the restrictive covenant might apply to the original owner of the property, might, but that they have been repeatedly thrown out by the courts after the sale of the property. If Mrs. Kyong sells the property, or if she doesn't intend to sell the property but after her decease the property changes hands, the new person ccmes along and says hay, I'm not making sufficient money on this, she stated that she believed that that aspect of this kind of control has been thrown out by the courts on many occasions. Does this accord with your knowledge of this situation? Town Board Minutes 16 January 12, 1989 Town Attorney Bamey replied, that he was not aware of restrictive covenant being thrown out except in circumstances v^ere there is a change in a circumstance. The mere change of ownership does not void them. He stated that he was not familiar with vtot Mrs. Bowers was talking about and that he would have to go look at that but his guess was that if those were thrown out they were probably scmevhat rigid in their application of limitations so it made it perhaps economically inpossible to sustain the property and the property ran the risk of becoming a kind of blight, that could not pay its taxes, for instance. The law that we have here has built into some flexibility and in fact there was seme discussion v^en we were drafting the law, should we put absolute dollar limits and that didn't make sense. It was tied to an index namely, the Housing and Urban Development medium income so that as time passes five years, six years or ten years from now obviously vhat constitutes low income in an absolute dollar sense will be different so he thought the basis for removing or setting aside those restrictive covenant was the inability to make a proper yield. He did not thing that would apply to this situation here. Mrs. Bowers asked, two unrelated people, students rent a one bedroom apartment, is this rental based on the unit or the income. If two people rent the unit can rental be increased to put up each persons income or Town Attorney Bamey remarked, let's start back so everyone imderstands. This law as it is drafted is not tied to the income of the tenant, the rent is not tied to vtot the tenants income is. The rent is tied to an objective independent standard which is 30% of 80% of the medium income for one person if you are dealing with one person, for two family which could be related or unrelated. You would take both persons income, add them together, that would be the unit that is attorpting to rent the unit and then you would see do they meet the low income test v^ich is a different test but the rent that is charged is not related to that. Rosalind Grippi read the following statement; "I. From the beginning, v^ien the Kyong project first came to attention, three objections among others were put forward by citizens and the media: 1. We lacked a decision on the Route 96 problem, including the crucial Hospital entrance, and the resolution of the Octopus. 2. We lacked a coherent cotrprehensive plan for West Hill. 3. The citizens wanted to be heard to assure that zoning laws provided—that the character of their neighborhoods be protected and that neighborhoods would not be adversely affected by zoning changes. Since those early meetings we have moved forward with promising developnents: 1. Last week the Town Boards, with input from community representatives, have named and voted to contract a consultant planner to work with the community toward comprehensive planning. 2. The DOT, following appropriate public hearings and community input, are now in the final stages of a decision on Route 96 (possibly with a redesign of the Hospital access) and resolution of the Octopus. Town Board Minutes 17 January 12, 1989 3. As individuals and ttoough newly fonned neighborhood associations, people of the Town of Ithaca have beccme, on their own, inforned and inquiring citizens ready to benefit the Town's long range planning if Town officials make use of this valxiable, primary source on neighborhood needs and concerns. To grant the Kyong rezoning is to thrust aside the constructive possibilities just now opening to us. II. TherB are aspects of the Kyong project that have not been fully considered. We give the example of the access and main roadway of the proposed project. At the August 8, 1988 Town Board hearing on the Kyong project, Mr. George Frantz discussed Kyong access in relation to the DOT's three options and concluded that the access would be on old Route 96. The following citations are frcm the Minutes: "Councilman Cardraan questioned, then the proposed intersection for the development would be old 96? George Frantz replied, it would be on old 96, yes." Last week, understanding that old 96 is destined to be eliminated in front of the Kyong property, we requested plans at Town Hall for the proposed Kyong access. Mr. Frantz showed us three, one for each of the DOT options; each springs directly fran the new 96 roadway. What will Town Board Motibers vote on? A Kyong project that will access on old 96? A Kyong project that will access with Option 1? A Kyong project that will access with Option 2? A Kyong project that will access with Option 3? If you vote for the Kyong project you are saying the road is not a factor that matters. But it is one of the factors that are crucial. Option 3, for example, shows the Kyong entrance not at the South end vtere the ccmmercial center would be located, but at the North end—sandwiching the Chapel and Schoolhouse between Hayts Road and the "Kyong" Road. It appears that the latter road is wider than Hayts Road in order to accoiinodate the heavy traffic it must serve—a multiple housing district, a ccmmercial mall and residential traffic through to Hopkins Road. We also asked to see the plan vdiere "Kyong Road" joins Hopkins Road. We were told it is not yet drawn, it is in the future. We point out that that is what planning is supposed to serve (i.e., future). A plan is a design to be realized in the future, anticipating v^en future beccmes present. If you don't know the design of the roads, you cannot ascertain the full impact the project will have on the camtunity. The road and entrance for a project of this magnitude cannot be worked out after rezoning. It is not a little cul-de-sac in an R-15 subdivision. Because of the magnitude of the Kyong project, its roadway and entrance may be more detrimental to its neighbors, immediately North and West, to the larger neighborhood, to Hospital and emergency services and intermunicipal ccmrauters than you would want to coninit this ccmmunity to and we ask you not to venture it. Town Board Minutes 18 January 12, 1989 Another exairple of poor planning; We ask you to notice our property adjoining the Kyong project at its North border. Conmercial A zoning is directly opposite and is considered an adjoining property therefore the Planning Board. If the Kyong property is rezoned there will be Business B to our South, and our property is left isolated R-15. We aren't big property owners and we have been overlooked. This is not good comprehensive planning — indeed, not cotprehensive at all. The Kyong proposal ignores Kyong's neighbors. We ask you to vote against rezoning. If the Kyong proposal is rezoned, it is xmreasonable to expect our property to remain R-15, and you have received correspondence from us and our attorney that speaks to this problem. What is the rush? We have been told that comprehensive planning may take a year or more; that awaiting Route 96 determination is delaying; that the Kyongs cannot wait. But vdiat is a year or two vdien generations to come will be affected by your decision? To cite from the Town's 1959 draft conprehensive plan: "Finally, and most irrportant to the success of (any) plan is the attitude of the people and their representatives toward it. A planning program, v^ether regional or local, cannot hope to succeed unless it has the unequivocal support of the citizens and their leaders." The people of West Hill do no want rezoning of the Kyong property. We hope the Board appreciates and listens to their input." Sxpervisor Desch closed the public hearing and turned the matter back to the Board and noted that the first matter before the Board was the Environmental Assessment. He asked the staff vtot was the status of the Environmental Assessment? Town Planner Beeners replied, we have reviewed the information on the traffic impact and also the implications of vtot the affordable housing consists of as proposed. Essentially the information further supports cnjoc reccnmendation that a negative determination of environmental significance be made for this project. Councilwcman Leary stated that she had questions about some of the things that were raised. Supervisor Desch asked if there were questions about the environmental assessment, not the proposed local law? Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked that unfortunately these are always so tied together that many of us feel uncomfortable in trying to isolate the discussion of the Environmental Impact Statement from the broader question. So maybe what Councilwcman Leary is saying, if we might have a broader discussion then we might be able to resolve both the local law and the environmental assessment. Supervisor Desch replied, fine. Councilwcman Leary remarked, the latest version of the low income housing section was written last night and she wanted to check with the developers to see if they had talked with their attorney or anyone or is this acceptable? Mr. Leathers replied, yes. Councilwcman Leairy went on to say, the law establishes a ceiling beyond vdiich the lent may not go but v^en it gets down to the protective covenant level that still would go through Board approval so the specifics can be worked out v^ere actually the rents are lower than that but in the law itself it just guarantees Town Board Minutes 19 January 12, 1989 it won't be higher than that but it can go lower later on. She went on to say that she also had questions about the traffic. You say 20 cars leave the development in the morning, half of them go through the Octopus and the other half don't, from the multiple family. Mr. Richardson replied, 39 actually. 32 leaving, 7 coming in. Councilwoman Raffensperger stated that she really did not have any questions, she had some concerns vMch might be addressed at this point or later it really doesn't matter. She went on to say that still remaining, as far as she was concerned, was safety and traffic with safe access to the hospital, the Cliff Street capacity and the Octopus at present is a problem. She stated she was very respectful of the traffic kinds of projections that Mr. Richardson made but common sense and experience tells so many of us that this is a prc±)lematic area that the addition of the kinds of traffic that we are talking about, not just from the present proposal but fran v^t she considers to be an inevitable increase in vtet will be done on that site has to be a problem. She stated that she considered environmentally questionable the number of acres that have been requested for rezoning because it is not proportional to the number of square feet of commercial that is requested. When she considered history and she lived in the East part of Ithaca near the Judd Falls shopping center vbich was originally planned and designed and approved as a neighborhood shopping she was only too aware of kind of almost inevitable incremental growth v^en you have the land to do it on. She stated that in her opinion Business "B" is not suitable in all of its aspects for this site, nor does she think the scale is appropriate if there is continued development on it. Additionally she thought that all she had to say on this one time, that she really did respect the kind of proposal that has ccrae to us, it has many affirmative kinds of elements to it. She stated that she would hate to see it completely vanish from consideration for the Town but primarily she felt it was not timely now. With the Town's increased on going efforts in comprehensive improved planning, the City's planning study for the West Hill area and their stated desire to cooperate with the Town of Ithaca in a costprehensive plan for the area, the uncertainty vMch she hoped was soon to be resolved concerning the Route 96 alignment, it seemed to her that the rezoning of this land and its development is really one of a commitment of land and resources and constrains our future decision making in a way that she did not think is acceptable right now. Town Engineer Robert Flumerfelt remarked, that in his review of the traffic considerations of this project, vdiich has not been in the depth of the conplete study that was done by Dr. Richardson, but he felt that he could just best sunmarize in looking at all the data that this project does not, although it increases the traffic at this intersection sonevbat in its present configuration, it's not a great increase. It's not an increase that would change, vhat traffic engineers call the level of service at that intersection in any of the approaches or traffic movonents and just to sunmarize, he felt it was just a minor change but not terribly significant with the size of the project that is proposed. And as far as intersection safety, he felt it would have a very minor effect safety wise. Councilwcman Leary stated that she had a general ccmment on the project. The one thing that we know about that everyone can agree on is that it is very controversial and many people have opposed it especially the ccramercial aspect and especially the size of the rezoning. She went on to say that it has been pointed out, well earlier the consultant on the traffic has been questioned because he was hired by the developer. We are about to hire a Town Board Minutes 20 January 12, 1989 consultant/planner and spend the taxpayers money on it and she thought given the controversy and the clear opposition by so many people that it might be better to wait until we have a clearer direction from a consultant/planner \dio can't be accused of being partial. This would be an impartial professional evaluation and she thought would, especially in her conversations with people from West Hill, v^o have supported the hiring of this planner she felt it would alay seme of the fears or just the major concerns that people have expressed over the months. Wie can wait a few months and ask this planning consultant to give us seme direction, not only just about this project but about vdiere the needs are in the Town, v^ere do we need low income housing, v^ere do we need coimercial? At this point she stated that she would feel that it was inprudent to vote on this even though she was inclined toward the project and she felt it had a lot of potential before we have seme of these questions answered down to the basic point of satisfying the residents of the West Hill cemrmmity. She did not think it would be appropriate for the Board to approve it right now. Supervisor Desch asked Councilweman Leary if she was suggesting that the scope of the work that the consultant was hired to do be modified at this time to include this evaluation? Councilweman Leary replied yes, to include this. Supervisor Desch replied, it means that other things vdiich may be more inportant are going to be distracted from. Councilweman Leary stated that she did not mean to take away from any of overall evaluation because she felt this was needed v^en you look at any specific project and especially now vHnen you have the planning going on in the City for West Hill, she felt it was a good opportunity to just link all that together. And just not rush ahead, it will mean a very major change and she stated that she would feel much more comfortable voting for something that has wider ccmmunity support and she felt the Board did not have a hope to get that unless we dononstrate that we have at least explored the questions as thoroughly as we possibly can and now that we have this planner coming on it is a great opportunity for it. Councilman Klein stated that he basically shares a lot of the same thoughts and comments that have been expressed by Councilweman Raffensperger and Coimcilwoman Leary and as he had said earlier vdien this was before the Planning Board he did think that the proposal although it has some potential good features about it there is still a lot of uncertainty. The Route 96 issue is primary and the fact that we have taken the steps to hire this outside consultant, he felt the Board was SGme\^at jimping the gun. He stated that he did not necessarily think the Consiiltant had to be given a slightly different direction at this point. His process will take half a year and perhaps more and he felt the West Hill area that he will get to as he goes through his work and yet if we go right now and accept this double zoning change we are really subveriiing his efforts in seme respect and he felt the Board owned it to themselves to get his analyses. He thought there have been articles in the paper, noises from various City officials about how they are voting on the Octopus depending on v^at the Town is going to do, etc. As a Councilman here he felt unccmfortable that nobody has talked to the Board and he did not feel it should be played out in the media. He felt the Board did need a dialogue with the City, we are concerned with the traffic County wide and there are a lot of things going on. He did not think anyone would particularly suffer if we really put this off and he did not feel that was a cop out. But he thought the Board could, without feeling bad about it. Town Board Minutes 21 January 12, 1989 put it off until the Board can really make a decision v^ere we have a little more framework to make that decision in. Supervisor Desch stated that he would like to ask the Town Planner to address the question of dialogue with the City, as a matter of fact there has been quite a lot of dialogue. Town Planner Susan Beeners replied, there has been a good amount of dialogue with the City on West Hill planning matters. We have reported to them and kept a very close contact with them as far as trying to establish seme coordination in open space, residential character meetings as we get around. In fact today at a small meeting we were mentioning that indeed yes we had our morning meeting with seme Planning and Development Board members of the City, we had one of our Town Planning Board members there as well. Then we also went to a work session looking at West Hill. The Tewn Planner went on to say that at both meetings the consensus seemed to be viien we did mention that we indeed did have a hearing tonight on Kyong was a laugh and good luck and we are not worried about such a small project because we think it will fill a need for that quart of milk and will relieve seme of the pressure on the Octopus. That has been the consensus of our discussions on West Hill Master Planning. There will be seme further meetings scheduled v^ich will also involve the Town Planning Board, bringing them and Planning Development together to discuss vdiat has certainly been blown out of proportion in the media in the past couple of days. Councilweman Raffensperger replied, all this occurred today, was she right? Town Planner Beeners replied, all of that happened today. Now in our reviewing this specific project and in speaking with planning professionals at the County, at the City, scame of the consultants that we interviewed to retain for this planning/consultant job, we have not sensed any great objection to a site that happens to be located opposite the only major intersection at the present time and a very significant future intersection, probably on Trumansburg Road. We have just not had any sense of disagreement. Supervisor Desch suggested the Board get back to the question of the environmental assessment, he felt that was the first step. Supervisor Desch stated that he would move the question, just to get it started. RESOLUTIOJ NO. 20 Motion by Supervisor Desch; seconded by Councilman McPeak, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby declares a negative determination of environmental significance for the Kyong project. Supervisor Desch asked if there was any further discussion about the environmental aspect. Councilweman Raffensperger stated that she was never very clear exactly v^t the consequences of a vote is on the Environmental Assessment Documents. If this Board was to vote that there was a significant environmental potential in this project, vdiat then would be the effect of that? Town Planner Beeners replied, well for one thing you would have to define exactly viiat the potentially adverse iitpacts were. Town Board Minutes 22 January 12, 1989 Councilwonan Raffensperger replied that she was just asking about the vote. In other words, then does it require a full enviroranental impact statement or v^t? Town Attorney Barney replied yes, the finding of significant environmental impact requires you to stop all further consideration of the actual merits of the proposal until an environmental irtpact is prepared and accepted and then studied. Si:pervisor E)esch asked the Board if they were ready to vote on the motion with respect to the determination of negative significance? Councilwcman Leary remarked if we voted no, in other words that think there is would this then go to that planner or could it then go to that planner to work it up? Supervisor Desch replied that he would assume that was a separate decision. Town Attorney Barney replied, it is a rather unique set of responsibilities that flow from a finding of environmental inpact in the sense that there is a scoping process that it must go through to determine v^at it is that we want the impact statement to deal with. Normally it is prepared by the applicant or the developer. Councilwcman Raffensperger stated that the reason she had asked the question was that even though it was obvious she was opposed to the proposal for rezoning she was not going to vote no on this because she did not think at this point that it was appropriate to require the developer to do a full environmental impact statement. That is why she wanted to clarify v^at the requirement would be. Supervisor Desch replied, if we were to do that we would have to begin specific things that they would have to look at that we would consider a significant impact. (Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary and Klein voting Aye. Nays - none). Supervisor Desch asked if there were any other ccninents in respect to the local law? Councilwcman Leary remarked that she thought the Board ought to table it. Supervisor Desch replied, based on your earlier statement? Councilwcman Leary replied yes, based on v^iat eveiryone has been saying that we should table it and refer.... Councilman McPeak remarked, \diat you are saying is that you would like to make a motion that says that we refer the question of rezoning to the ccmmercial consultant that we are going to hire? Councilwcman Leary replied, no. She thought it should be considered this professional but not just this, she did not want to divert the she just did not think the Board should vote on it now, okay. She did not think the Board should turn it down and she did not think the Board should approve it. She thought it should be put on the back burner and let the planner look at it, but in considering everything else she did not want to make this the only thing that he does. Tcfwn Board Minutes 23 January 12, 1989 Supervisor Desch asked, v^at do you want your tabling motion to say? Councilman Klein asked, how specific does it have to be? Councilwcanan Raffensperger replied, a table motion can just be a motion to table, you don't have to justify it, but we are not si:^posed to discuss it either? Si:?)ervisor Desch replied that he thought you had to state v^t it was you were tabling, that was his only problem. He asked if Councilwcman Leary was tabling further consideration of the local law, or are you tabling scmething else? The Supervisor went on to say that he thought it would be unfortunate to table the matter because it would be totally unfair not only to the developer but the ccniramity as well to sinply table the matter after we have spend seemly countless hours of staff time, consultants time or vdiatever. Attorney's time, etc. That to him would be an injustice to the process that we have been so carefully going through. He felt the Board owed it to themselves to vote one way or the other, vote the proposal either up or down so everybody leaves the rocm knowing vdiere we are. Coimcilwcman Leary asked, what about referring it to the Planning Board? Supervisor Desch stated that he felt it was too late, he stated that he had offered that reccramendation back in Jxme and nobody got very excited about the idea. If that had been done back then perhaps we would have had the answer by now. He stated that he was synrpathetic about the decision not to do that because there are other general issued that the Board needs to get on with and deal with. But on the other hand you can't have it both way he thought. The time has cane to make a decision. Councilwcman Leary remarked that she hated to see it go down the drain is vdiat she means and she would like the Planner to consider this proposal v^en studying everything else. Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked, if there were to be a negative vote basically on the resolution we have before us tonight, it does not necessarily mean that the project is forever down the drain, after all the consultant is to proceed in an orderly fashion in his consideration of the Towns comprehensive planning process and she would assume that in the course of that kind of a process we would have sane of the questions answered that we seem to have about this proposal and others too. Councilwcman Leary replied but then they would have to go through that v^ole course again. She asked if the Board felt that was fairer than just suspending action on it and asking the Planner to look at it? Councilwcman Raffensperger stated that she was not very happy about the idea of the Planner looking at any proposal in isolation. She stated that that was one of the reasons she thought that we needed a Planner to help us irrprove our cotprehensive planning process is because we look at too many things in isolation. Councilwcman Leary replied, this would be part of looking at the overall. Councilman Klein remarked that he supposed the Board could go ahead and vote on it and if it gets turned down it will still be there in the record and certainly the consultant vdien he get to West Hill, we can make seme decisions on how West Hill should develop and what Town Board Minutes 24 January 12, 1989 West Hill might look like, certainly this development or other might cane back. If people would really like to know \^ere we stand than he felt that maybe we should go ahead and vote. Si^jeirvisor Desch replied that he thought Coimcilwonan Leary had a good point though, there is a difference between v^at Councilman Klein said and vtot Coimcilwcman Leary is suggesting. What she is suggesting, at least as he hears it, is that in all fairness to the ccninunity the consultant should look at the specific proposal in seme context in the process of doing his work. He asked Councilwcman Leary if this was v^t she was suggestdLng. Councilwanan Leary replied, yes. Councilman Klein stated that he thought he could agree with that statement. Supervisor Desch asked, if there a consensus that irrespective, assuming that the vote doesn't pass, that this is something that at a point in the near future the consultant would be asked to do? Councilwcman Leary replied, to look at this in the context of the overall. Supervisor Desch replied, right. Coimcilwoman Raffensperger asked, the consultant will do vAiat? She stated that she guessed that she did not imderstand vhat was being said. The consultant at this point will do vtet? Councilwcman Leary replied that vdiat was said was that this should be included in scope of his work in addition to his general charge of looking at the Town's needs. Supervisor Desch replied, the real question is for the consultant to reccmmend vhether this proposal is an appixpriate land use at this location in this context of density and number of units, square footage, etc. Councilman Klein remarked that he was not sure he had to do it in Phase I. He has a certain set of tasks to do in Phase I and in the course of his work as he get into other phases this would be part of it. Si:5)ervisor Desch remarked, then your proposal to table would enable this Board to schedule a public hearing at seme point in the future, once again take up the matter as it is presently drawn? Councilwcman Leary replied yes, without having to go through the v^ole they can always withdraw if they get sick of waiting. RESOLUTION NO. 21 Motion by Councilwcman Leary; seconded by Councilman McPeak, RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby table the motion on the Kyong rezoning with the understanding that the Board wants this to be considered by the consultant/planner as part of the scope of the work after Phase I. Si:5)ervisor Desch called for a roll call vote. Councilman Bartholf Voting Aye Councilman Klein Voting Aye Town Board Minutes 25 January 12, 1989 Councilwonian Leary Councilman McPeak Councilwcman Raffensperger Supervisor Desch Voting Aye Voting Aye Voting Aye Voting Nay ADJOURNMENT The meeting was duly adjourned. Town • . • ^SOVm OF ITHACA AFFIDAVIT OF FOSTING AND PUBLICATION Jean H. Swartwood , being duly' sworn, say that I am the Sown'.Clerk of the Town of Ithaca,-Tompkins .County, New - f" •yqrkj that the following notice has-been duly posted on the sign.board^ _ of lie Town Clerk of the Town of Ithaca and that the notice^ hai been V" duly published in the local newspapers (Ithaca .Journal) ". ; . ; : * See* Attached'. . • • • * *« • Location of sign' board 'used for posting.* flaih" Entrance pate of Posting I December ,30. 198-8 pate of Publication: January 2, 1989- T<^n Clerk; Town o£ Ithaca STATE OF NEN lORK COUNTY OF TOMPKINS OF ITHACA ss. 19 Sworn to «na ouisotibia b.fot. «. Ihi. LEAH B. CARPENTER ^ ^LEAH B. CARPENTER Notary Public, Stata of Nmv YoNi Qualified in Tompktns Co. No. 4797177 m My Commission Expiroa April 30, IBSIcJn " -Notary Public / TCWN OF ITHACA NOTICE OF PUBLIC HEARING PLEASE TAKE NOTICE, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca will meet and conduct a pi±»lic hearing on January 12, 1989 at 7:00 P.M., at The Mayers School, 1251 Trumansbtirg Road, Ithaca, New York, to consider a local law rezoning a 15.86 acre portion of Town of Ithaca Tax Parcel No. 6-24-4-14.2, located at 1290 Trumansburg Road, 48.86 acres total, from Residence District R-15 to Business District "B", for the proposed developnent of a neighborhood caimercial service center, and further, with respect to the proposed rezoning of a 12 acre portion of said Tax Parcel from Residence District R-15 to Multiple Residence District, Oo Hyon and Song Ja Kyong, Owners, and will at this time hear all persons - in favor of or opposed to the adoption of said local law. Jean H. Swartwood Town Clerk PUBLISH: January 2, 1989