HomeMy WebLinkAboutTB Minutes 1988-05-24TOWN OF ITHACA
ADJOURNED BOARD MEETING
May 24, 1988
At an Adjourned Meeting of the Town Board of the Town of Itiiaca,
Tcnpklns County, New York, held at the Town Offices at 126 East
Seneca Street, Ithaca, New York, on the 24th day of May, 1988,
there were:
PRESENT:
AI£0 PRESENT:
Noel Desch, Supervisor
Henry McPeak, Councilman
Shirley Raffensperger, Councilvranan
Robert Baridiolf, Councilman
Patricia Leary, Councilwanan
Raymond Bordoni, Councilman
Thcmas Cardman, Councilman
Richard Ruswick, Town Attorney
Lyle Neigh, Ithaca Fire Depa2±ment
Ed Bredbenner, #5 Fire Ccrrpany
Gloria Howell, Fire Caimissioner
Robert Earle, Fire Comdssioner
Bill Gray, City of Ithaca Engineer
Thcsnas Mills, 108 Pineview Terrace
Daniel L. Rhoads, Captain #1 Fire Corpany
David Cornelius, Fire Ccsnnissioner
Edward M. Olmstead, Chief, Ithaca Fire
Department
Karl Schmid, Fire Caimissioner
Sean Killeen, Canmon Council
D. K. Reeves, City of Ithaca
J.C. Gutenberger, Mayor, City of Ithaca
Dcminick Cafferillo, Deputy Controller,
City of Ithaca
PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
Supervisor Desch led the assanblage in the Pledge of Allegiance.
PUBLIC HEARING TO CONSIDER THE FIRE STATION BUDGET AND OTHER FIRE
SERVICE MAITERS
Proof of posting and publication of a notice of a public hearing to
consider the Fire Station budget and other fire service matters
having been presented by the Town Clerk, the Supervisor opened the
public hearing.
Supervisor Desch noted that by way of sane background, although the
matters before us do not, by law, require us to hold a public
hearing they are irrportant enough firm many aspects amongst v^ch
cost is one factor. Also, for those v^o may not be familiar with
Town procedures, vdien we foimally take on additional bonded
indebtedness any action by the Tcwn Board in that regard is subject
to permissive referendum and following and during that public
hearing the Town Board is required to show that v^tever borrowing
is involved is in the public interest. In this case obviously, it
is not the Tcwn that is directly borrowing the money, however, the
dollars are the same no matter v^o borrows it particularly since
our credit rating, in the case of the City and the Town, are
Town Board Minutes 2 May 24, 1988
identical. During all the borrowings that we did for the sewage
treatment plant there was viirtually zero difference in the rate
that we obtained either on a tennporary financing basis or a
permanent bases. The Supervisor went on to say that there are
basically three major areas to consider this evening, one is the
request from the Chief and staff for additional personnel, secondly
is the matter of proceeding forward with the replacement of major
fire equipnent and third is the matter of the construction of the
two new fire stations, one on West Hill and one on South Hill.
Supervisor Desch went on to say that basically the request for
additional paid personnel is outline in detail in the Chief's
memorandum to the B& A Conmittee dated March 31, 1988 v^ich, as he
remeambered it, was made available to this Board at our April
meeting, shortly after it was produced. He stated that he felt
that the documentation that the Chief has provided is self
eij^lanatoiry, we do need to have the opportunity to ask questions of
the Chief or the Fire Conmissioners or anyone else v^o has been
involved in this matter so far. As you all know, the six year fire
contract between the City and the Town does incorporate a freeze on
the number of paid positions so any change would be an amendment to
the contract. For the benefit of those \^o have not seen the
tabulation put together having to do with tax rates, he stated that
he had done a breakout of each of the major areas so that it was
clear \tot the tax rate would be with each of the ccmponents of the
various requests. In the case of the personnel, the average Town
share of the cost and it is a bit arbitrary because the Town's
share changes each year of the contract, it increases by a percent
or so each year. He stated that in calculating it he had taken an
average of those percentages and it turns out that the cost figures
as described in the Chief's memorandum, including fringes, vMch
had a gross amount of about $675,000, the Town's share of that
number would be scmething in the order of between $150,000 at the
start and $200,000 by the end of the contract vMch has an
irrplication of from $.80 per thousand on the tax rate to $1.00 per
thousand on the tax rate. The assessed value of the fire district
being roughly twD hundred million. The Supervisor asked the Fire
Chief if he would care to corment on the tiining and status. He
noted that to his Imowledge, Common Council had not at this point
in time considered the matter at great detail.
Sean Killeen, Common Council member replied that at this point not
at all although we have been aware of it for two years. It's not a
new request.
Chief Edward Olmstead stated that the thirust of that was, he
thought, the result of a meeting of the budget ccnmittee v^ere this
issue had been brought to them about two years ago and at the final
budget deliberations for the 1988, we again discussed that with
directions from the budget committee of Coninon Council was to go
back to the new Board of Fire Cdtmissioners who would have the Town
representation, go back through that again and see if the Board
still felt that was the direction we wanted to go based on the
other things we were doing. So that was taken to the Board of Fire
Commissioners at thedlr February meeting for review and questions.
The Board acted on this at their March meeting, unanimously, that
they supported this request and it then went back to the Budget
Committee for their consideration. The Budget Committee, at that
time, said we should take this information, along with other
^ information, to the Town because of all the things we were
considering this was the one that was going to require the most
discussion and he felt the thrust was to get a joint Fire
Commission, Common Council, Town group to sit down and deal with
the personnel matter as a specific item so that we could explore
all those things in sort of a committee fashion and see vdiere it
fits in because the issue is both costly and complex.
Town Board Minutes 3 May 24, 1988
Chief Olmstead went on to say that at the Budget meeting he did not
think it was their intent to asked for decisive action one way or
another because his understanding frcm Ccnmon Council was that they
wanted to not do that at either level but to pursue the discussion
and deal with that i^ole issue.
Si;5)ervisor Desch asked \tot the likely timing would be, fixan the
Ccnmittees processing of the v^ole matter?
^ Councilman Killeen replied that there was a concern about moving
ahead on the personnel aspect because you do these as career
ajpointments, it's a twenty year coimitment, for openers. We
wanted to scmehow be sure that the volunteer recruitment canpaign
was fully addressed and undertaken to see v^ere the balance exits.
These things are tied together and preonpt the drawing up of a
hiring timetable. The City side does not want to see this
personnel series of decisions in anyway be hostage to the prior two
steps of facilities and equipment.
Supervisor Desch renarked that he assximed that Councilman Killeen
takes into account the existence of two new stations.
Chief Olmstead replied that the vdiole thing was a system that the
hiring of these people would allow the time to get them through the
required four to six months of training so that vdien the facilities
became functional the additional personnel, one in each station
would be out there, so that there are two persons in the stations.
It was also a staggered hiring as we could not handle all twelve
people at once.
Supervisor Desch remarked, the main thrust of your objective is to
have coverage on a first shift basis of two people.
Chief Olmstead replied, three. It will probably work out, with our
es^rience, of scmething like 2.4 because you can't quite cover one
position with five people. One of the changes we are making in the
system is that we are going with a task force or central station
with four satellites so we are providing towards the satellite and
one of the reasons for putting a person in Central is to serve all
areas with seme additional people and try to make up for the
increase in calls.
Councilman Cardman asked, the personnel issue then is directly tied
to the new fire station? You don't have the fire stations without
them?
Chief Olmstead replied, well you could, that decision could be
made. The problon we get into is that we are taking, and he noted
that he was looking at this frcan a number of different aspects, one
is that we are taking the resources viiich were primarily within the
City and we are now spreading them out over a much larger area. We
are also taking and putting people much further away so that we are
talking about a single person five minutes away frcm nearest
support, supposing they all move in the same direction. When you
have people in the station, whether volunteers are in the station
or school is in session and you have bunkers there or everybody is
in the building you have seme flexibility but the only dependable
thing, and he did not mean that in a negative way about the other
parts of the manpower system but the only thing that you can assure
yourself of is that the people on duty are going to go. There is
nothing in our operations that is predicated on the basis of one
person acting on there own and we are legitimately concerned about
the safety of those people v^ether they get into either an
emergency medical situation or a fire situation v^ere they are
ccnpelled to act and they do not have the support. He stated that
two people were not recognized anyvAiere as an acceptable minimum
Town Board Minutes 4 May 24, 1988
but we are looking at the reality of vdiere we are caning fron and
v^ere we are heading. In the discussion between the City and the
Town, one of the things we agreed to do was take this issue and put
it out in the contract because it was a difficult issue to resolve
and we understood that. He felt that this was vdiy the language,
vdiich he felt he might interpret the language a little different,
than Supervisor Desch does. There definitely is a number that is
the basis for the contract but then there are provisions for either
unilateral additions of personnel, either the City or the Town
^ could add personnel without the consent of they other, they would
pay all of the costs. We did sane staffing increases in the Fire
Department, we asked for sij^^rt fran the Town. They were just
things that we were driven to do and the one thing we thought we
would have sr^^rt for was trying to irrprove the training program.
There was no support fran the Town on that and the City is paying
the full cost of that, even though the Town get the seirvices fran
that.
Councilman Bordoni asked, with the closing of Station #5, for
exanple, and the assumed closing of Station #6, and then
effectively he would assume because Station #5 has been closed for
scmetirae that manpower usage has been spread out and utilized in
other areas. But with the closing of Station #6 vdien the new
station on West Hill is in operation, does that still dictate that
you need the additional twelve?
Chief Olmstead replied, we are still working on the same number of
stations. Station #5 was just squeezed into Central Fire Station,
we haven't reduced the number of people on duty. Our view of the
fire stations vdiich are being built is that they are not new
stations and that would indicate that we were adding. In fact,
vhat we are doing is relocating two fire stations within the City
into the Town. The manpower issue is only one-third of \diat we are
looking at. If we try to do that with all career personnel we
would probably be looking at hiring scmething like 40 to 50 people.
We are not even hinting on a third of that, we are sanevhat under
that and it is strictly a function of the number of calls we are
responding to and the area that we are serving and the likelihood
that that is going to increase at a predictable 10% a year if the
last twenty years of history is any indication. At sane point, in
this thing, we have to deal one way or the other, either by talcing
away services or providing personnel to deal with a dramatic
increase in v^t we are being asked to do with fewer people than we
had twenty years ago on all levels.
Councilman Bordoni asked the Chief if he ejqjected to be to full
caiplement by the end of construction?
Chief Olmstead replied, that was the target that \^en the station
came on line we would have people ready to go into the station. At
the beginning of the construction period, as we first put it
together we would bring one person on duty around the clock vdiich
was four people or one person per shift and then about half way
into the construction period we would add eight more people, they
would complete their training period at just about the same tine
that we would be opening the new stations so that we would not have
any lag. The issue that drives us there is the issue of safety for
the people, more than anything.
Sipervisor Desch remarked that one of the problans he has is in the
timing, that's why he asked Alderman Killeen the question, is that
it seems to him logically that the utilization of resources would
probably be much more effective if we had the new stations open
with the incentive to bring a higher volxmteer corp and broading of
their duties before taking on a major ccstponent of additional paid
people. He stated that that was the feeling that he was getting
Town Board Minutes 5 May 24, 1988
that it was almost a disincentive to significantly increase, as far
as volunteers go, the paid end of it. Recognizing the Chief's
concern for safety vdiich is certainly a valid one. You have to
have a corp of people there at all time that are effectively
trained, v^ether they are paid, volunteer or a caribination.
Chief Olmstead asked if the Si:pervisor was saying that paid people
are disincentive to volunteers?
Supervisor Desch replied, in terms of adding to the ranks to that
extent during this time frame.
Councilman Bordoni remarked that he did not know if he understood
that.
Supervisor Desch replied, if a yoimgster at Ithaca College has an
opportunity to become fully trained and do a full range of fire
fighting activities and yet it's like the promotional aspects in
any job, if you have a career person v^io was just brought on and is
going tiiough the training phase himself, it going to be pretty
tough to conpete and have the incentive to participate on a full
level as a volimteer in that kind of environment, new station or
not, particularly if the volunteer duties are as limited as they
are currently.
Chief Olmstead replied that he thought that was really a matter of
the policy attitude of the fire department because if there is one
thing we have done in the last three years we have made a very
intense ccsnnitment to make it one fire department. We have
integrated the training activities, the fire fitting activities.
There used to be seme real class distinctions drawn between the
ccstpanies themselves and between the career and the volunteer
people. There is a natural deviceness in a systen v^ere you bring
scraebody in to work for you but before they can even go on shift
they have to go through something like 750 hours of training and
scmebcxfy else v^o comes in on a volunteer capacity and has to go
through 45 hours of training in a one year period. We recognize we
have a longer period to bring people into the fulfillment of the
training role for that volunteer role or bunker role and a lot of
that is experience and the truth is that people kind of choose
their own path at how active they want to be. Our way of making
that system work is not drawing a distinction that used to be drawn
and understanding that everybody in the department has a specific
role in carrying out the final mission of the fire department. He
felt that in a large extent, vhat they were trying to do is to be
defensive to the high level of demand on the services of the fire
department and trying to make life better for those people v^o
right now have the maximum opportunity to ccme in and do almost
anything they want in terms of the level of activity and the number
of calls they go to and are being driven out by just that very fact
that there are too much, they don't have any way to get away from
it.
Supervisor Desch asked how much of your departments role in the EMS
service is driving the need to increase the paid personnel?
Chief Olmstead replied, the Bnergency Medical Service account for
30% of our present business and we see that, if it follow the
national norm, that is going to increase more than anything but
gradually. The national norm right now, if you are involved in
transport, is about 70 to 75% of your total calls. If you go
outside of Ithaca that is v^at you find in the departments that
transport. He stated that he felt it was going to be a significant
factor and it's the one tangible service that will continue to grow
with donand.
Town Board Minutes 6 May 24, 1988
Si:5)ervisor Desch asked if it was fair to say then that 30% of the
departments operational costs, other than equipment and debt
service could be attributable to that?
(Zhief Olmstead replied no, because you would have to base your
operational costs only on reactive services and the truth is that
reactive services going to alarms, going to incidents accounts in
terms of total hours to scmething like 5% or less of the total
time. It's a very labor intensive operation in terms of training,
maintenance, public education, fire prevention, there is labor pool
vdiich is utilized. Most of that is done at the convenience of the
public \^ch doesn't mesh with the schedule of volunteers. If you
tried to pin down EStiergency Medical Services it would be about 5%.
Supervisor Desch remarked, we had sane fun trying to do that seme
time ago.
Chief Olmstead went on to say that if all you do is go to a call
and don't do anything else it's a lot easier to cost out.
Supervisor Desch remarked, the training is a big factor.
Chief Olmstead agreed, noting training, public education, code
enforcement, inspections, hydrant inspections, hydrant tests.
There is a lot of stuff going on that never went on before and all
of those things were things that were supposed to have been done,
were not being done and we picked the things vdien the insurance
services officers came in, we picked those areas that made sense to
us in terms of the operation of the department and were most
critical in the rating of the ccmmunity for the purposes of fire
insurance.
Councilwcman Raffensperger stated that among all of the material we
have received she had scmething that is called an alarm response
surrmary. She asked if those alarms that are so designated, do they
include the emergency medical services or are they purely fire
alarms?
Chief Olmstead replied that that included all calls. That 3,000
number includes the emergency calls. Emergency medical services
started in mid-year 1979.
Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked, then she was correct in
reading that in 1967 you had a total of 366 alarms of all types and
in 1987 had almost 3,000. In 1967 you had 42 paid firefighters and
in 1987 you had 44. She went on to say that she sees average
volunteer response vMch has almost gone down in proportion to the
number, so obviously you are operating then with a lot fewer total
of volunteers and career.
Chief Olmstead agreed with Councilwanan Raffensperger's figures.
He went on to say that he thought they peaked out, in terms of
volunteer growth, in 1963 in terms of average response. Seme
things have happened since 1967 and one has been the decline in the
size of the ccmpanies, the decline in the numbers of people v^o are
willing to give as much time, and sinply we don' t caipete
successfully for their time. Monthly we break out the response by
exactly vdiat it is.
Councilman McPeak asked if there was any way to recover seme of the
EMS costs from Blue Cross/Blue Shield?
Chief Olmstead replied, there are seme provisions for third party
recovery for transportation but not for the basic life support.
What happens in the advance life support is that the expendable
materials end of being replaced by the hospital so in fact the
Town Board Minutes 7 May 24, 1988
patient ends up paying for the solution so there is scxne recx)very
although it doesn't go directly to the fire ccnpanies. Vfe are not
involved in those types of materials so it is not a factor. We
spend about $2,000 to $3,000 a year on consumable supplies for
emergency medical services.
S\:qpervisor Desch asked vdiat the success rate was last year in
tracking volunteers?
Chief Olmstead replied that he would have to say that we are still
at a break even or less in terms of numbers of people \dio leave or
pass away. The biggest flustration he sees with the oorrpanies is
trying to recruit people and keep then interested.
Daniel Rhoads, Captain Catpany No. 1 and Chairman of the Fire
Captains stat^ there were a couple of things he would like to
bring ip. First of all, on Chief Olmstead's request for manpower,
the volunteers look at it this way on the outlying stations. If we
have a fire out there and that particular area you have only one
man manning that particular station and he gets on the scene there
isn't much he can do with just one man there. That's one of the
reasons that we have actively recruited more volunteers and
hopefully more bunkers but there is no guarantee that we are going
to get them. Secondly, one of the biggest problems we have in
recruiting is the sheer number of alarms. We have vdiat we call
bum out, people go for three or four years and then for
example, last year he stated he went on 338 alarms, Lyle went to
six hunted and some. Gary went to 300. Seme people can continue
the dedication year after year after year but seme people also get
to point v^ere they just say they can't do it any more, physically
can't do it any more because of the sheer number of alarms. We
still do recruit people though, we get then highly motivated and
they do say with us, we are able to retain them. But he felt there
should be seme addition to the paid manpower to cover those
*** outlying stations for the simple reason that you have to have
enough manpower on that initial attack in there you cannot do much
with just one man manning a station.
Lyle Neic^, Ithaca Fire Department stated that he thought that the
one it&a they were talking about was intervention time. A fire
truck on the scene with one person does not constitute intervention
time. One person going into a structure v^re there is suspected
or actual fire is really in violation of departmental rules. That
person has little more than he can do except stand there and wait
until scmeone else get there to help him. To seme degree he stated
that he agreed with Supervisor Desch's cotments about possible
negative effect on recruitment because you "already have people
there" there is a possible effect there but he did not think it was
going to be a make or break situation. He felt, in fact, if we
play the game right we might make it an advantage rather than a
disadvantage. When we put new bunkers in they have a very minimal
level of training. When you bring a new member on board they have
a very minimal level of training. If they have scmebody there with
the Big Brother type attitude and the people play the game
correctly, these people become a role model in effect and he felt
give confidence to the new people rather than a negative attitude.
There has been a rather dramatic turn around in department, in the
recent past, \diere it has become one department more than ever
before in his span of time in the department which is rapidly
approaching the 40 year mark. We are a lot closer to being one
department now than we every were before.
Supervisor Desch ronarked, another way of saying that is you are
not adding to any given location a number of paid people that will
be overvdielming.
Town Board Minutes 8 May 24, 1988
Mr. Neigh responded no, adding in his judgement.
David Cornelius, Board of Fire Ccnmissioners stated that the thing
he wanted to point out was that in the ten years he had been in the
department, as far as recruiting volunteers goes, he would say that
out of every thiree to four volimteers that we take in as new
meiribers we may get one that is really active and stays active for
any extended period of time. So you would really have to recruit
in fairly large nimbers of volunteers to get a workable number that
that is going to stay with you and become ccnpetent fire fighters.
Chief Olmstead noted that since he was appointed Chief, in 1985, we
have had 14 people retire and leave the department. They have been
^ , replaced. Out of the 14 we hired, 11 of those people were and
still are active volunteer fire fighters except for one person vdio
is an Ithaca volunteer and cannot volunteer because of the federal
laws. Two of those people right now are chiefs of their
department, two of them are assistant chiefs. One of the people we
hired left Eastern Ambulance as a paramedic to ccme in to what we
are doing, one was a police officer and one has a family
connection. We have not made a secret of the fact that our best
pool, our best resource of people for recruiting employees into the
fire department that we have, are frcm the volunteers.
Supervisor Desch asked, of the 14 persons hired how many were from
the Ithaca area prcper?
Chief Olmstead replied, out of 52 people on the last test there
were only two city residents on the entire list and about half of
the 52 were frcm out of the County. That gives you an idea of
composition. Of the people who are volunteers you have Groton,
Mecklenburg, Ithaca, Dryden, Brodktondale, Slaterville, Cayuga
Heights, Vama.
Supervisor Desch asked, of the 52 taking the test were most of them
volunteers at seme point?
Chief Olmstead replied that this was something he did not know.
That is something we find out when we get into the selection
process.
Coimcilman Cardman stated that he had one last question. Did he
understand correctly frcm Alderman Killeen that the Ci-t^ has not
yet committed to any increased staffing yet, he asked if this was
correct?
Alderman Killeen responded that they have not yet had this specific
of a discussion as we are having right here yet. We have had it in
past years focusing upon various appointees but in March we
deferred it so we have not done it as you are tonight.
Comcilman Cardman replied, so we vrould be taking the lead on the
question?
Supervisor Desch replied no, not necessarily. It's the kind of an
issue that, and he felt the Chief would agree with him, that his
presentation over the past several years has been in the context of
the budget process and what you are really trying to do is work
toward that review process into the next budget period.
Chief Olmstead renarked that there was a $60,000 seed put into the
restricted contingency fund for possible personnel increases in the
fire department. He noted he stated "seed" because he thought the
exact words were good faith money. It was not anything we could
get at absent the necessary steps and he sensed it was more an
Town Board Minutes 9 May 24, 1988
issue of jointly going through and then at scane point separate
decision would be made rather than everybody going on their own.
Councilman Cardman asked if there were three components we are
being asked to decide, the building, the equipment and the
personnel or is it really one or may be two issues that are very
linked?
Chief Olmstead replied that he felt \tot was ittpending was what is
inmediate, in other words if we don't fish or cut bait on the fire
stations we are not going to make the September start, we aren't
going to make the construction season. We are prepared to be out
to bid within 45 days for twD new pumpers. He went on to say that
^0^ he had been authorized to proceed to bid for pumpers and heavy
rescue will follow that in about another month or so. So those are
things vMch are on going, the only thing which would unseat that
would be, an actually the decision doesn't ccme until the bids are
awarded. We are telling you we are going out to bid but v^en we
ccme to the point of saying here is the low bidder and then he has
to go back to Ccmmon Council and get their approval of the bid even
though we have a budget out there. The same thing has to happen,
if you do not have mutual consent frcm both the City and the Town.
Say the Town said no or if the City said no he woxild have to go to
the other one say do you want to pick up the v^ole tab.
Si:pervisor Desch ronarked, in that sense our meeting tonight on the
issue of equipment and stations is more critical in terms of
timing.
Coimcilman Cardman remarked yes, but we are spending a lot of time
on this issue.
Chief Olmstead replied, but tMs is the one that is going to cost
you the most for the longest period of time. He stated that in his
Chief's Position Statement he kind of saw that as the inmediate
issue and then there is this other issue and he really imderstood
how that drives your decision process on the other things. We are
on the brink on the other stuff right now.
Si:5)ervisor Desch renarked, v^t we are looking for is an
educational process so that we have before us the inplication of
the whole program. The Supervisor went on to say that the Chief
had made reference to the adding of five fire lieutenants of the
six fold increase in the service area, he asked the Chief if he
would care to tell the Board a little bit about his algebra on that
one?
Chief Olmstead replied, right now there is a five to six square
mile area in the City of Ithaca and v^en we add the contract area
on that we are talking about 30 square miles so that is v^ere you
would get the geography. What happens under the new contract, our
response used to be an officer and an engine that v^t the old
contract said, now the new contract calls for a full structural
response vtoch means we pull sixty percent of the on duty force to
vdiere ever the alarm is and v^atever the percentage of alarms are
in the Tcwn that means that every time that happens we are pulling
that out of the center of the service area. We are also driven by
all these other things vMch are just picking and we are trying
to get more supervision of programs and multiple calls at the
lowest si:ipervisory level and the lieutenants are the lowest
supervisory level and that would provide for two lieutenants on
duty around the clock to cover a fairly large area. We are in
situations now where it is not unusual to have multiple alarms, not
at the same place but having two or three or four alarms and they
are close enough together that we are trying to cover. We had this
the other day, three in a period of time with two on East Hill and
Town Board Minutes 10 May 24, 1988
we got a third one at Ithaca College and a Emergency Medical call
downtown. All of this happened at once. Again in terms of trying
to supervise things, if we were really going to do it right and
this is my definition of right, we would be looking for more than
that but we are looking to see v^t we can do a step at a time as
cpposed to going to what makes sense.
Supervisor Desch remarked that it sounded like the achieving of
equality in delivery of service is more the driving force for the
increase.
Chief Olmstead replied, it a ccmbination of the quality of the
service and the demand for the service plus all the other things
which are going on.
Supervisor Desch remarked, so we will be talking again about this
at budget time \^ch will be coming up all too soon.
Alderman Killeen remarked that it has been his e^^jerience that in
the last four to five years they have never stopped talking about
it. There will have to be a decision at budget time because of the
various forms of budget decisions. The first decision he felt were
the buildings and the equipment, the personnel, as Supervisor Desch
has said, relates to this and should be fully understood.
Chief Olmstead added, last year vdien we got to this point in the
budget, it was the November budget meetings, and his question then
was that he had given the information to them back in J^ril and
nobody had asked any questions, if we have any discussions v^y
don't you go back and talk to the Commissioners again. He stated
that he didn't want to end up in November again and he felt some
work should be done together, individually and collectively before
we get there so that the questions are answered in that time when
you can breath and not v^en you have a six hour meeting trying to
go through all the budget pressures.
Supervisor Desch remarked, having gone through the analyses with
the inplication on the tax rate will put us much better position to
work with you on that. The Supervisor went on to say that in
regard to the equipment. Chief Olmstead also gave us his view of
the plans for replacing the fleet and Dcaminick Cafferillo has put
together seme financing approaches in order not to end vp with the
situation vdiere we are double loading payments in any year. He
noted the debt retirement would be over a three year period. The
first package would be awarded as soon as the bids were in, if they
have been approved by both parties. Then the next one would be in
1991. There would be a little bit of double loading but the
iitplications of cost would be fairly small. The Si:pervisor went on
to say that the inpact on the Town fire protection district tax
rate of the Town's share of that first rou^ly $700,000 equipment
package is about $.40/$1,000 of assessed valuation. The other end
of the spectrum and for a \f^le there will be about the same level
of major repairs to equipment simply because of the level of
deferred maintenance the Chief is dealing with in the fleet, so
really vAien you are talking about equipment costs you are really
talking about $.80/$l,000, probably for the next four or five
years.
Chief Olmstead asked the Supervisor if the numbers were based on
todays assessed valuation or does that include a projection of
growth in assessed valuation?
Si:pervisor Desch replied, it includes a projection of about 4 to 5
million increase per year within the district. That is vdiat we
have been experiencing. The Supervisor asked the Chief if there
was anything he wanted to add to v^at he had provided in the past?
Tofwn Board Minutes 11 May 24, 1988
Supervisor Desch noted that the first package does not include a
ladder truck.
Chief Olmstead replied that's correct, the ladder is in the second
package.
Supervisor Desch stated that the Board should keep in mind that
they should decide as soon as they can so that the process can move
forward. He asked if the full Canmon Council had approved the
financing schedule of the first equipment package? He noted that
the B&A Ccmmittee had approved the package.
Alderman Killeen replied yes, both the equipment and the new fire
stations.
Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked, the equipment figures that you
have just been giving, does this include was is on this sheet
designated as equipment repair and equipment replacement, or only
equipment replaconent?
Supervisor Desch replied, both are included.
Lyle Neigh stated that he would urge the Board to favorably look
upon this request for equipment because we are riding on pieces of
apparatus now, a reserve engine that the cab swoops down so the
door won't latched half of the time there are gaps that you can
stick your \^ole hand through. We have apparatus that you can't
open the doors from the inside. Seme of us have strongly suggested
that the Chief put into the budget this year, under equipment, a
request for a flat bed trailer so we can retrieve the equipment and
transport it back and forth to the garage. Ihe v^eels are being
run off of the equipment and from both a safety and availability
point of view this seriously needs approval.
Chief Olmstead ronarked that the equipment maintenance is really a
combination of two things vdiich both end up as deferred
maintenance. One is to keep something nanning a little bit longer
and two is when you huy it initially can you get it a little
cheaper. We tried some things in 1980 vMch were repeats of things
we did back in 1957 and it didn't work any better now then it did
back then except the technology was different and the equipment was
better but we have had the same exp)erience and that is that you
need to spend some frightening amounts of money either v^en you buy
it so that it is not going to wear out or you need to spend
frightening amounts of money on an annual basis to keep repairing
it so that it doesn't quit. If a dump truck breaks down it doesn't
help the job but nobody is anxiously waiting at the other end.
Coxmcilman Bordoni remarked that he felt one of the things that
should be said is that with the experiences the fire department has
had in the p)ast with faulty and inoperable equipment that it
scmetime became less enchanting to become a volunteer because
people, particularly those that were very dogmatic about attending
fires and responding to alarms, would get pretty disenchanted once
they found out that it seemed on a every other month basis their
companies tinick would be in some garage for repair for a month or
two at a time. It became a lot less exciting to becatie a
volunteer, it makes a big difference, firetan take a great deal of
pride in participating in their p)articular company and v^en their
company's truck is habitually out of operation it becomes less
exciting and less attractive and less worthwhile.
Chief Olmstead noted that in 1971 as part of the State mandated
reduction of the work week for policemen and fire fighters which
took thorn from 48 to 40 hours a week, the City of Ithaca eliminated
two position in the fire department. One was an engine company
Town Board Minutes 12 May 24, 1988
position. We used to run seven engines instead of six and we also
had a dispatching position. So we were actually staffing ten
position and now we are staffing eight. Ccnpany 4's engine tecame
the reserve engine and was taken off the line so effectively that
wasn't there and it wasn't going on calls and Ccmpany 4 shortly
thereafter ceased to function, it's still there but it's having a
very difficult time functioning. One reserve engine used to be
enough but it's not enough anymore so now we ended up pulling 7's.
Deferred maintenance irtpacts the volunteer systan. He went on to
say that it's not just the volunteers but the people vdio work with
this stuff all the time and are under the gun to get there and to
perform and to do sanething they are really connitted to are more
than just a little unhappy v^en it doesn't run.
Supervisor Desch asked, how much of the total fire department
repair bill is done inhouse?
Chief Olmstead replied, first initial maintenance is done by the
fire fighters. Up until recently we had most of the repairs done
by the Department of Public Works vrfio we paid for materials only,
there was no labor cost. What we ran into was the maintenance
level that we put on them, they were never really staffed to handle
that. It got to the point vhere the quality of work was going down
and the people v^re just trying to do too many things. About a
month to six weeks ago we starting contracting the work out to a
private garage and we are getting very good service out of that.
It is going to have a net effect this year of driving our
maintenance budget over and so you will probably see out of the
total dollar budget of thing done for maintenance you will probably
see sanething like 85% is job out work.
Supervisor Desch noted that since there was no one present vho had
not been through the long process of Master Planning, selecting
architects, working over designs, worrying over cost he stated that
he would not go back over any level of detail. Fundamentally vje
started out for better or worse with an atteirpt to bring about the
construction of two new fire stations at $600,000 per station. All
of the architects vdio were interviewed were clear in their
statenents that they could do the job within that budget. Of
course v^at neither the architects nor vre knew particularly v«ll at
that point in time was the inplications of the tWD sites vdiich had
not been chosen particularly at that point. He stated that he had
to say that the site selection process and the site review process
probably went as smoothly as any joint process he could remember
being involved with. That moved forward very nicely. However, the
architect in presenting his schematics made it very clear that the
total cost of the station if we were to incorporate the full
requested program would get us into the range of more than double
the $600,000 cost per station. City Engineer Bill Gray took a
first cut in caning 155 with sanething in the order of $300,000
worth of cuts vMch were discussed at considerable length at our
fixe station meetings and in most cases found to be unacceptable to
the majority of the fire department folks and ultimately to the
connittee. Toward the end of 1987, the Town in response to Toni
Egner's Novanber 16th reduced design v^ch was roughly 7,500 square
foot building involving six bunker roans, a small meeting roan,
slightly smaller apparatus roan indicated that it would be
canfortable with increasing the budget to $900,000 providing that
that reduced program were incorporated. The Fire Station Camittee
following a fairly veil attended meeting and a lot of caments fran
volunteers and other people and so on, balked at the idea of
reducing the program. Late in 1987, the Chief convinced the Fire
Station Cotmittee that a $900,000 building could be achieved with
the original space if the quality were reduced through the use of
different materials such a wood trusses, etc. The architect then,
through recarmendations fron the Fire Station Ccninittee and
Town Board Minutes 13 May 24, 1988
consequently both governing bodies went back and performed a design
development stage \^ch we see on the table \diich produced a
$900,000 building. Now several months later nobody wanted because
nobody wanted to spend the money to maintain it. So we are at the
point really where we were back in November with the choice as to
\diether we once again consider an increase in the budget or indeed
make the hard nose decision to cut the scale of the building back.
Supervisor Desch went on to say that in seme ways Dcminick
n Cafferillo, Deputy Controller for the City triggered some of the
i I discussions by having gone back through and done some additional
financial analyses and having talked with the Bond Counsel v^o
indicated that the Class C building could only be financed over a
15 year period. He stated that he then went back, following the
B&A Committee meeting and did a spread of 20 years on a $900,000
building \^ch would be of the same fire resistance as Mr. Egner's
Novaiiber design. He stated that he went through and projected the
implications on the tax rate if we proceed as the City now has done
in approving the budget at $1,150,000 per station. The first
probably four years, it is clear that the Town would be paying 70%
of the new construction costs, so that the difference between
station cost at $1,150,000 and $900,000 is about $40,000 per year.
The question becomes v^ether or not we can justify that
differential in terms of the borrowing and the tax rate. And also
the question of vtot happens if the agreement that we have with the
City is not extended beyond 1992 v^ch would then mean obviously
whatever we build the Town is paying 100% of the cost. There are
both pluses and minuses in that regard, if the Town were to in
three or four years go to it's own volunteer force there might be
seme more powerful incentive to having a bigger facility. Those
are the issues, there are a nxjmber of questions that are involved
with this v^iole issue, one is v^at is the level of program that we
can justiify in terms of the likelihood of bunker space to be
occupied throughout the system, there is also the renovation
j package vMch also started out at an estimated cost with scsme
! i architects estimates involved with it, at $600,000 and that now is
up to $1,000,000.
Karl Schmid, Board of Fire Cotmissioners stated that at their last
meeting of the Board of Fire Ccmmissioners they asked that he speak
to the TOwn Board tonight. He went on to say that the proposed
fire houses are being built assuming that a ccmbined volunteer paid
fire department will continue to be, in being in the foreseeable
future. In other words we are assuming that we are going to be
able to buck the trend that has been here in Ithaca and nation wide
of fewer and fewer people volimteering to become fire filters.
There is a lot of speculation of vdiy this trend is, everything from
people talking about both spouses working, the number of calls
going up to 3,000 calls a year now versus 300 just a decade ago and
other society trends. The bottom line is, the trend has been away
from volunteering and we are assuming we are going to be able to
buck that trend and the new fire houses are one of the means by
v^ch we hope to attract volunteers. The latest design vdiich
Supervisor Desch talked about provides, we feel, adequate space for
bunkers the people \dio actually live in the fire house in exchange
for their services of being available to respond to alarms. There
is kitchen space and meeting space for coirpany meetings, social
gatherings, etc. Overall we feel that the new fire houses are
^ quite nice but in the process of keeping the cost down several cuts
' have been made which we consider scmevfliat penny-wise and dollar
i foolish. Specifically there are three items, v^ich he stated he
would like to present in order of ascending costs and the
difficulty in accorplishment. The first issue is tile floors, the
fire house as proposed now, it calls for concrete floors throughout
the living space. We feel that as a minimum our rooms should match
dorm rooms. The prime source for recruiting bunkers are college
Tc3wn Board Minutes 14 May 24, 1988
students. It's not the only source. We do have bunkers vho are
other than college students but they are the prime source. We feel
our rocnus are in carpetition with dorm roans in effect. The dorm
roans are the model for the current design. He stated that he took
upon himself to talk to Mr. Egner and he has no problon putting in
tile in the living space as an add alternate, in other words have
it in there as an alternate and if it canes within budget to award
the tile floor. We feel strongly that it shouldn't even be an add
alternate, the tile floor should be in the living space.
Mr. Schmid went on to say that the second item we feel strongly
about is air conditioning. He stated that in Ithaca one might say
air conditioning is not a must but keep in mind the fire houses
will be built along busy highways with loud road noises and at
times the fire houses will have large numbers of people. Again we
are trying to use the fire houses to recruit people as a means of
recnaiting people so we feel that air conditioning is sanething
that should be included. At this point we have a hot air system
designed into the building and air conditioning is a relatively
easy thing to add to the hot air system. He stated that again he
had spoken to a few engineers vho talk about $5,000 to $6,000 and
again he spoke to Mr. Egners vho can make it an add alternate very
easily. The Commissioners feel it shouldn't even be an add
alternate that the air conditioning should be included as a part of
the building. The third item the Ccnmissioners raised at the last
meeting was individual controls. That adds a real canplexity of
the v^ole issue here because if we are going to individual roan
controls we would have to redesign the heating system, we would
have to go to a four pipe systen with hot water and chilled water
going into the roans and we are talking about a substantial
increase in cost, probably $30,000 to $40,000. He stated that
again he took it upon himself to talk with sane mechanical
engineers and vdiat they are telling him is that if we have air
conditioning with the hot air system and if it is designed well an
occupant could regulate the heat in his room with the dairper. It
certainly would not be as good as individual thermostats with the
hot water system and chilled water system. The Board v^o sent me
here felt rather strongly about individual thermostats and after
doing a little more investigating and telling you that would be a
fairly substantial redesign and a fairly large expense.
Mr. Schmid went on to say that in sunmary then the Board of Fire
Caimissioners would like you to support the new fire houses, the
1.15 million dollar fire houses, and in addition they would like to
see tile in the living space, air conditioning and individual roan
thermostats for the living spaces. He stated that he would add
parenthetically if you can't support the individual rocm
thermostats because of the cost we certainly feel strongly about
the tile floors and air conditioning with the hot air system.
Supeirvisor Desch remarked, in the case of South Hill at least you
have a northern exposure vhich will not expose you to the heat of
the Sim one part of the living space and not on the other so that
you get into a prc±)lem of temperature zoning. We do have that
advantage. West Hill you are facing east and will get a little
heat in the suitmer morning sun perhaps.
r*j
Mr. Schmid renarked, but on South Hill you also have the fairly
steep slope with truck traffic rumbling by and people wanting to
close their window to the noise and yet needing the window open for
the ventilation.
Si:^)ervisor Desch replied, if you had just the coil you could do
that.
8ST
r
Town Board Minutes 15 May 24, 1988
Mr. Schmid stated that he spoke to Mr. Egner and the hot air system
they are putting in can take the coil. If you go back two years
fron now and put it in you will probably spend an extra $1,000.
You would actually save a little if you put the air conditioning in
right now.
Councilwoman Raffensperger stated that she was not clear on the
cost, she didn't think Mr. Schmid had said how much tile floors
would cost.
Mr. Schmid replied that he was guessing that between the tile floor
and the air conditioning we aren't talking about more than $10,000
or $11,000 per station. If you go to the individual thermostats
^0^ then you are talking $30,000 to $40,000.
Councilvonan Raffensperger asked if there was no zoning in the
heating?
Mr. Schmid replied, that is correct.
Councilwoanan Raffensperger replied, none v^atsoever?
Mr. Schmid replied, one. Well actually there are two, one in the
living space and then one in the apparatus roan. He went on to say
you can also have two thermostats but it would still be one zone.
You could have a second thermostat over ride the one. If you put
one in a colder space and one in a warmer space you could over ride
but it would never be totally satisfactory and that is a concern to
the Board of Fire Coimissioners.
Supervisor Desch remarked, but you are trying to use the same duct
for heating and cooling and that is the problem.
Mr. Schmid stated, if you go to individual thermostats you can't do
that you have to go a hot water and chilled water system.
Councilman McPeak remarked, an individual thermostat is more like a
hotel not a dormitory because as he could recall the only air
conditioned dorms we had at Cornell was the Residential Club.
Mr. Schmid replied as far as he knew, Cornell doesn't have any air
conditioned dorms.
Lyle Neigh remarked that he did not have any figures to back it up
but he would submit to the Board, that since we don't know the
level of use for these rocxns that over the life of the building you
may save more than enough to pay for the better quality heating and
air conditioning sinply by the ability to close down and control
the heat or air conditioning in the roans that are not being used.
We hope we can fill them up but over the life of the thing he would
submit to the Board that they might very well save the cost of that
with the cost of utilities.
Si:pervisor Desch remarked, clearly over twenty years you would. It
might not be too much less but those costs are going to go up too.
Mr. Nei^ remarked that he would assume there would be a damper.
Supervisor Desch added, so that you could get seme kind of control.
Mr. Schmid remarked that with the proposed system the only control
you are going to have is with a damper and there will be scmeone on
the comer roan vho is going to be to cold and demanding that heat
be brought up, you certainly would have to lock up the thermostat
because you know scmeone is going to walk down the hall and turn it
up and the next guy is going to turn it down.
Tcjwn Board Minutes 16 May 24, 1988
Coimcilman McPeak asked if the figure quoted of 1.15 million
include the tile floor and air conditioning?
Mr. Schmid replied they are as add alternates and vdiat we are
saying is they really shouldn't even be alternates.
Supervisor Desch remarked, they are pretty small.
Chief Olmstead stated that he would take a different approach to
this since the Board had all the numbers in front of them and you
j do your own thing on the spread on the tax base. But that he felt
that one of the things we are trying here is to keep it consistent
and viable. Mr. Egner has a model he built of the fire stations
and he built it out of the gray cardboard and he felt at least it
was accurate because it seemed to reflect sane of the stuff we were
seeing there in terms of the sinplicity and space and the color is
also right because he was talking about bleached Texture 1-11 that
would cone out gray. But, he went on to say he also saw a problon
with taking those people who cost you the least of this vhole
system. They are not free and he was not going to tell you that
volunteers are free in fact he did not feel there was an
appreciation of the true cost. But you know v^at the cost of
twelve more people would be and they will negotiate a contract
increase every year. The people vdio give their time vdiether they
give it to the cotpany socially, they just cone there and hang out
and keep the corpany going because they don't go to fires any more
or they are active and they go to a fire or the people vdio live in
the stations, he felt you have to deal with the reality of people
vdio go in and out of that fire station in all weather v^en no other
people go out, and they go out in the summer and they sweat and
they get hot, they are uncanfortable. In the winter they sweat
they get hot they get cold they get frozen, they get wet and this
vdiole thing and he felt that for v^t it would cost to do that in
terms of the quality of life for those people it's a nickel dime
^ proposition. He went on to say that he wanted to also tell them
that he did not think you could rob out of the program scmev^ere
else. We are down to a basic station here, there aren't any extras
in the stations and he felt for the relative costs of this things,
particularly vdiere you have the choice to make the decision later
it's relatively inexpensive.
Si:pervisor Desch asked vdiat was it that drives you, for exanple, to
eight bunker rooms versus to six?
C3iief Olmstead replied, vdiat drives us to eight bunker rxxms is
that we try to keep the size of the bunker program the same and he
thought we were different by one. Of particular concern to the
City is a part of the ccarmitment of this system is to inprove the
overall quality of the bunker program. Wie did a large
decentralization which pulled the largest number of people out of
Central Fire Station v^ere there was the most activity and the most
interruption and the most difficult space to manage and distributed
them more evenly around the system. He stated that he did not see
it as a program increase, that number is v^at came out of the
systen appimch which gave us the same number of people, the same
number of bed and not trying to make it any bigger or any smaller
just to make the quality better than it is now.
Si:pervisor Desch asked vdiat was the occupancy rate right now?
I i
i Chief Olmstead replied as of this moiming, about four but school is
out. Before school was out we were only running atxDUt eight
people.
Supervisor Desch asked vdiat the capacity was?
Town Board Minutes 17 May 24, 1988
Chief Olmstead replied, with a capacity in the area of 35 to 40.
Councilman Bordoni asked if this was the capacity of all the
stations?
Chief Olmstead replied, that's all five stations.
Sij^jervisor Desch asked Lyle Neigh if it wasn't true that in the
renovation program that the bunker rooms in that program will have
^ individual control.
Mr. Neigh replied that he did not know.
Chief Olmstead responded, yes because it's a four tube system.
They are already air conditioned.
Daniel Rhoads remarked that one thing he would like to add to Chief
Olmstead's renarks is that one thing we are trying to do with the
stations, etc., is to get enough bunkers so that we can have a
bunker on duty one night and the next night he is off, he doesn't
have to respond to a call because the other bunk rocm will go,
being able to alternate. As it is if somebody bunkers into Central
or one of the other stations every time that alarm goes off he
goes.
Lyle Nei^ added, an active volunteer over the course of a year may
respond to several times more in the number of alarms than a
specific paid person because of the shift rotation of the paid
people. This is a point v^ch is frequently overlooked. If you
will recall early on, he had ccmmitted for Ccaipany No. 5 if we had
a good working facility that met certain minimal requirements,
v^ch he would not go into right now, that we would ccaranit and have
ccirmitted on behalf of that membership, that we will go out and
mount a very active recruit program to try to fill this thing up.
^ If we get to spartan in this thing, if we don't get on a
ccnpetitive basis, \diether we like it or not, and that he was a
taj^yer also don't forget, with such things as college roans or
the roan down the street it seems all too many of the student
population today don't give a hoot about the rent costs, they are
looking for something more than it cost than in rent. They want
something that is a little better and we have to address that
problem. Volunteerism is, as the Chief pointed out, not without
cost but on the other side of it there is also costs for those of
us v^o volunteer, there is a very significant cost. Very frankly
we think we have a very legitimate right to ask a little bit back
for that. His own case, for exanple, he felt he could safely say
that he had responded to more alarms in the Township than anybody
else in the department has as a volunteer. He stated that it has
cost him a lot of money and he is willing to do it and he has been
willing to do that, his record proves that, but don't pull the rug
out fron under us.
Supervisor Desch remarked that he did not want to argue with him to
much but spending $900,000 per station is doing quite a lot.
Mr. Nei^ replied, we cannot have less than vtot we have. We have
to have at least vdiat we have.
M Councilwcman Raffensperger stated that she would like to make a
I conment about seme of these amenities she had heard talked about
and characterized in less ccnplanentary ways than that. She stated
that she did not think it was just a matter of being corpetitive,
she felt it was really important that the people in the fire
department both the volunteer and paid people understand the value
that we put on their services and she thought it was just like the
schools if you are too spartan she felt you are showing that you do
Town Board Minutes 18 May 24, 1988
not value the functions and the individuals vdio are performing
those functions. She felt this sends the wrong message,
particularly now v^en we have two new stations that will need more
volunteers. She felt it was a big mistake to cut back on seme of
these very small things that will make a great deal of difference
to the people vdio work there.
Supervisor Desch asked Councilwauan Raffensperger if she was
including six versus eight bunker roans in definition? Is that an
^ amenity?
Councilwonan Raffensperger replied that that is not the kind of
thing she was talking about. She stated that she was talking about
the thermostats, the air conditioning, the tile.
Councilman Cardman asked what was the cost difference between six
and eight?
Chief Olmstead replied that there was an architectural cost if you
figure 500 square foot per station.
William Gray, City Engineer remarked, the building itself is
$120.00 per square foot for the site work and everything else. The
building itself is more like $70 or $80, so if you save 500 square
feet at $80 a square foot you will save $40,000.
Chief Olmstead added, you will spend seme of that in architectural
fees vMch you will have to renegotiate because the design is far
enough along. He stated that he did not know what the number is.
He felt there was scmething significant in that cut, that is a
program reduction, that is a reduction in what we are now set up to
do and trying to do.
Supervisor Desch remarked that before closing the hearing the Board
should here fron the Chief on the traffic lights v^ich are not in
the budget for $1,150,000.
Chief Olmstead replied, the traffic lights will not appear in the
budget one way or another. The decision on vdiether or not there
will be traffic lights will a decision of the New York State
Department of Transportation. If they deem then necessary they
will pay for them, if they say they are not necessary we can't put
them in so one way or the other if they say yes, they pay for than.
Town Supervisor Desch asked Mayor John Gutenberger about the
question of sewer on West Hill with Cornell, how do we take that
into account?
Mayor John Gutenberger replied, we have made Cornell a coimter
proposal for their proposal. We don't have an answer yet but we
will have it soon, the Board of Trustees are meeting this weekend.
But that he did not have an answer tonight.
Supervisor Desch remarked, then we don't know if anything should be
included in this budget, at this point or not?
Mayor Gutenberger replied correct, but that he was optimistic.
William Gray ranarked that the question came up earlier whether the
proposed budget included floor finishes or heating in the
alternates, it does not. The alternates consisted of parking lot,
putting in the emergency generator in, a block finish as opposed to
a Texture 1-11 and the internal fire protection system. There were
no changes proposed for the heating system, there were none for
interior finishes so they were not part of the add alternates.
Town Board Minutes 19 May 24, 1988
Councilman Cardman remarked, so they were not a part of the
$1,150,000.
Councilwcman Raffensperger remarked, all those things he said are
part of the $1,150,000, that's the difference between $900,000 and
the $1,150,000?
Supervisor Desch remarked, you have to be careful how you answer
that.
Mr. Grey replied, they make the difference between he thought
$95,000. The architect never made it down to $900,000 per
building, in order to get to that nimiber you would have to make
changes in the program, including changes like reducing the number
of rooms and other adjustments.
Supervisor Desch remarked, you have to go back pretty much to the
plan that the architect did in November vhich provides a small
meeting room, a small meeting room and a little bit smaller
apparatus roan.
Mayor Gutenberger stated that he had been reminded that the $24,000
for the sewer work on West Hill is in the dollar paraneters.
Sii^jervisor Desch replied, no there is no amount for sewer included
in the budget. The dollar amount is zero. If you look at Mr.
Egners design development li^xiate that he did following the B&A
Ccnmittee meeting it specifically makes reference to the fact that
there is no money in there for sewers.
Councilman Cardman asked for clarification, between the $900,000
and the $1,150,000.
Chief Olmstead replied that the original design was for 1.2 million
we got back to $900,000 by taking the same type of materials for
I construction, a smaller building, a reduced program, reduced
support systems for the buildings, generator and things like that.
Then he stated that he came back and said this is itrpacting my
ability to deliver, build a cheap building but don't mess around
with the program because that's the people, that's the thing that
is going to make it work. The we went back and had a cheap
building with a full program and then the realities of vdiat that
would cost in terms of deferred maintenance and that we could not
bond it for twenty years v^ch was one of the assumptions we went
with all along. So we have kind of ccme almost full circle.
Councilman Cardman asked, in your estimation what do we have now at
1,150,000, you said we had a reduced program?
Chief Olmstead replied, we have a builddlng v^ch can be bonded for
twenty years which is the existing program of the fire department
with no amenities.
Councilman McPeak asked if the building would have eight bunker
rocras or six?
Chief Olmstead replied, eight.
Councilman Cardman asked, with no amenities?
Chief Olmstead replied, no amenities. No air conditioning no floor
covering.
Councilman Cairdman asked, no generator?
OIT
Town Board Minutes 20 May 24, 1988
Chief Olmstead replied the generator is there. The building
support systems are in there. The fire protection for the
building, the fire alarm system which has to be, the generator.
Councilman Bordoni asked, the amenities bring it to v^at, 1.3
per station?
Mr. Gray responded, the original architects proposal with floor
finishes, pitched roof was 1.3 million. He stated that he did an
**1 estimate based on the original proposal at a million and a quarter.
, He stated that he had prepared a memo recapping all of this for the
Chaiiman and if the Board wanted a copy and then ask anyone of
several people vdiat all the numbers are you heard. That recaps a
long series of different budgets.
Carl Schmid remarked that he felt it was clear that the sense of
the Board was that they support the total program with the
amenities and we feel that for the building to be an effective part
of this total volunteer effort it is important that we have that.
It is certainly the feeling of the Board that we cannot guarantee
that we are going to get volunteers even if we build the fire
station with all the amenities but he feel kinds of strongly that
we won't be able to if we don't build a decent fire house and a
fire house that has the amenities that encourage people to want to
live in there and want to service.
Councilwcman Raffensperger asked if the Fire Caimissioners frcm the
Town of Ithaca, and she noted they were both setting there, have a
reccmroendation or ccmments for us.
Carl Schmid remarked, they patted me on the back and sent me in as
spokes person.
Chief Olmstead ronarked, he was leaving a position statement frcm
I i the Fire Chief for the Board to read later. He went on to say that
i I as a parting ccrament he would like to ccmment on the add placed in
the Ithaca Journal. It is biased and screams out that something
bad is going to happen financially and he felt people have that
opinion one way or the other. He went on to say that the proposal
for everything we are doing here is the result of six years of work
and three years of intense meetings by the City, the Town, the Fire
Ccnmissioners and just about everybody we could get into the room.
People told us v^at they wanted and vdiat they wanted to do and that
helped structure a contract. About the only place you can say
there is a program increase is the request for additional
personnel. We see it as the relocation of two fire stations frcm
the City of Ithaca into the Town. Renovations of existing stations
are not a program increase. We are taking existing stations that
are anyvdiere frcm twenty to eight-five years old and saying they
have to be fixed so that we can keep a strong ccramitment to
ccatbination career and volunteer fire department. It is very
important to all of us and we do have a commitment to that and it
is very important to our survival. We aren't guaranteeing it is
going to work. These are seme pretty big numbers but it is a
gamble we are willing to take because we do have the ccmmitment to
it and that he did not know the number, may be the 50% is the
number.
pw) Supervisor Desch replied, that is the number.
i
Chief Olmstead went on to say that the City had seme number too but
there was seme concern on his part and the captain, etc., that this
is not accurate frcm the facts that we issued.
Town Board Minutes 21 May 24, 1988
Councilvonan Leary agreed with the Fire Chief that it was not an
accurate representation. She stated that she had a meriK) vMch
covered this and other issues and then read the following;
"The recent add in the Ithaca Journal for the fire services pi±>lic
hearing scheduled for May 24, 1988 was published without the final
approval of the Tbwn Board and included wording specifically
objected to by Board meambers in the preliminary draft. Part of
that objection was to a specific percent of tax increases".
1
^ , Lyle Neigh stated that Ccstpany No. 5, as he was sure other people
in the Ithaca Fire Department as he mentioned earlier, have made a
ccstmitment that we want to make this syston work and as soon as we
see sauething concrete in regards to the building of new fire
stations we start to formulate a plan. We will be asking each and
every person here for assistance because we have got to go out into
the Town of Ithaca. The Town of Ithaca is now not virtually
represented in the volunteer ranks, there are a few from the Town
of Ithaca but not many and that will be the thrust of our
recruitanent. We are going to need help and we will be asking each
and everyone of you vhen that time canes.
Councilman Bordoni remarked that he felt vhen that time comes you
will find this Board very receptive and most willing to help
because it's all to our mutual benefits to share in this adventure.
Supervisor Desch added, it's going to take all of us not just the
Board but Ithaca College, Cornell, the vdiole ccmraunity.
As no one else v^ch to speak, the Supervisor closed the public
hearing.
The Supervisor went on to say that the first item of business
should be the equipment matter. If someone should adopt a
I resolution it should make reference to need to authorize the
i borrowing of $700,000 for the acquisition of fire equipment to
replace the 1968 pumper 906, 1975 puiiper 905, 1981 rescue vehicle
901 and the amount of the borrowing would be $700,000 to be paid
back over three years.
Councilman Cardman stated that as we vote on these individual
packages, and that he was only speaking personally for himself, he
was not voting for any 50% tax increase, that's not the message he
was sending to the public. We are sending the message to the
public that we feel that this is an activity that we feel must be
undertaken for the general well being of the ccnmunity and that
during budget time we will make every effort to keep the tax rate
low. That this is not going to drive a 50% tax increase.
Supervisor Desch remarked, although it will contribute
significantly.
Councilman Cardman replied that it may contribute but it may also
mean that we look at other programs that may necessarily need to be
reduced or abolished or \(diatever when we prioritize vdiat we do in
the budget.
Councilwaman Raffensperger remarked it had been her e3q)erience
^ over the years too, that residents of the Town of Ithaca have been
extraordinarily willing to pay for services v^ch they themselves
want and benefit frcm. She stated that she did not think we have
ever had great difficulty as long as we can show them that we are
paying for services that they wish to have.
Supervisor Desch remarked, surely in the case of the equipment.
I I
I !
Tdwn Board Minutes 22 May 24, 1988
Councilman Cardman added, in the case of all of them because most
of the people who have talked to him about it and after having
discussed it with them that we were not ccranitting to a 50% tax
increase seemed to take a much different view of vhat we were
attempting to do, to provide protection for the entiire Town in
cooperation with the City.
EQUIPMENT
RESOLUTION NQ. 151
i I
Motion by Councilman Bordoni; seconded by Councilman McPeak,
RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby
authorize the borrowing of $700,000 for the acquisition of fire
equipment to replace the City of Ithaca's 1968 puitper number 906, a
1975 pumper number 905, and a 1981 rescue vehicle number 901, said
borrowing to be paid back over a three year period.
(Desch, McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary, Bordoni and Cardman
voting Aye. Nays - none).
Supervisor Desch stated that on the subject of the fire stations
project budgets, he roninded the Board that there was a resolution
on the books vhich designates a $900,000 project cost per station.
So there would need to be a resolution adopted to change that or
modify it or vhatever the Board would choose to do.
Councilman McPeak asked if the Board was considering the 1,150,000
million project cost?
Supervisor Desch replied, if that is yoior pleasure but he felt that
he must tell the Board that he would be voting against any
increase. However, the figure to be considered was up to the
. I Board.
Councilwoman Raffensperger stated that she would like to clarify
the numbers. She noted that the tax rate, for example, in 1989
presumably with the $900,000 per station cost is 4.12 per thousand
and the rate of 1,150,000 per station the cost per thousand is 4.30
and increase of $.18 per thousand more, is that correct?
Coimicilman Cardman asked, we are talking about $.18 more per
thousand for 200,000 between $900,000 and 1,150,000?
Si^rvisor Desch replied, that includes the increase in the
renovation costs fron $900,000 to $1,000,000. It represents in
total a $600,000 capital increase.
Councilman Cardman asked if this was separable?
Supervisor Desch replied, it's reducible but not really separable
you can cut it but you have to do both.
Councilman Bordoni asked vdiat would happen if we go to 1.3?
Supervisor Desch replied, probably another $.10/1000.
: Councilman Bordoni remarked, before you think about changing the
I $900,000 and you have three choices, you can stay at the $900,000
level you can go to the $1,150,000 level or you can go to the
$1,300,000 level. What you have to keep in mind ^en you make
these choices is that the $900,000 level is the basic original
amount that we were considering. The $1,150,000 level is the
station that has the eight bunk rooms, it has the generator, it has
Town Board Minutes 23 May 24, 1988
the sprinkler system but it has no tile floors, it has no
thermostats, it has none of the things we have been talking about
tonight. The $1,300,000, as he understands it, includes the
generator, the eight bunk roans, it has the sprinkler system, it
has the pitched roof, it has the tile floors and the air
conditioning and individual controls or at least louver controls.
Councilwonan Raffensperger asked, how did we get to a million three
if we added $50,000 for the heating system, about, and the air
conditioning and the tile floor?
William Gray replied, a million three is the architects original
number for his design and completion in October.
Coxmcilwoman Raffensperger asked vdiat was authorized in the City?
Councilman Cardman remarked, we can pick a number but a million
three no one is talking about a program that is costing a million
three and then now you say this was the architects original figure.
Supervisor Desch replied, the Fire Cotmissioners recommendation
that you heard from Karl Schmid is that the amenities be included
vMch would probably potentially get you to a million two. He
stated that he was not sure about a million three.
Councilman Cardman remarked, but the City hasn't
Chief Olmstead stated that regardless of vAiat number you put on
this the bid structure still has add alternates so that v^en you
get the real number you have the real choice. We had some
structuring in that bid so that we could
Karl Schmid remarked, if you go to the individual thermostats you
really don't have an add alternate, you change the design of the
heating system.
Councilman Bordoni remarked, and that's \diere your cost of $40,000
comes in?
Councilman Cardman asked Alderman Killeen if the City had agreed on
1.15 M.?
Alderman Killeen replied yes, times two. That is the figure the
City Council has been working with.
Councilman Cardman noted that the 1.15 does not include all the
amenities.
Councilman McPeak remarked it could, it depends on how the bids
come in.
Supervisor Desch replied that it was unlikely, it's unlikely that
you can afford the individual controls, it would mean a redesign.
It is not clear at all, as Karl Schmid said, that the total cost of
going to that system isn't going to be a lot more.
Councilman Cardman remarked, but the Chief's basic program that
will meet the needs of vtot you say we should have is in the 1.15M.
It doesn't give you every amenity that you want to attract bunkers
but
Chief Olmstead replied, right. That number came before the Board
of Fire Cotmissioners meeting. The Board took Council's action and
said wait a minute. That's something that happened after the fact.
The Board went back to the original program that was put together
by all of the people vdio participated in that, so the Carmission is
8iT
Town Board Minutes 24 May 24, 1988
really saying that they are really calling for the v^ole program.
The number is somewhere between 1.15 and 1.3, he was not sure.
Councilwcman Leary stated that it sounded like if they were to go
with the thermostat, the individual thermostat control, that really
couldn't be an add on it would have to be part of the basic design.
Chief Olmstead replied, you could bid two systems as an alternate
and you got seme additional design cost in there in the biddingp*| process.
' Councilman Cardman remarked, then really vdiat we are talking about
from the $900,000 building the maximum the Fire Caimissioners are
reccnroending is $.28 for thousand. We are going fran a $4.12 to
approximately $4.40.
Supervisor Desch replied, $.28 to $.40 depending on, if you end up
paying for 100% of the cost down the road. He felt you have to
keep this in mind presuming it is not going to happen but you still
in terms of the debt retirement need to keep that in mind.
Councilman Bordoni remarked, we still need a motion to either vote
on the $900,000 level or change.
Supervisor Desch replied, you already have a motion on the books
approving the $900,000. If you want to change that a motion
increasing it is ne^ed.
Councilvonan Leary remarked, vdiy don't we increase it to the Board
of Fire Ccninissioners level?
Supervisor Desch replied, you have a couple of probloms in doing
that. If that's your wish that is fine, but there are two
problems. One is timing, the longer we delay in getting the
I I architects work done vdiidi means you have to have some coxinter
I action by Common Comcil to match \tet it is you want to do.
Comcilman Cardman remarked, so we would be messing the process up?
Supervisor Desch replied, you would be potentially delaying it.
Councilwanan Raffensperger stated that she was not totally clear
about idiat the Board was proposing to do is going to cause delay.
What is going to cause delay?
Supervisor Desch replied, the longer you delay in ccnpleting the
design and getting it out to bid the greater the risk on costs is,
interest rates. Soon interest rates are going to start rising they
already are showing signs.
Dcminick Cafferillo, Deputy Controller for the City stated that
there is a possibility of the interest rates increasing but he
could not predict how much at this point. The Council has approved
going out to bid, there are several bid alternates or several items
still in question. The City would have to amend our authorization
at the time our bids were received and at the time we agree on v^iat
is going to be in as an alternate and vdiat will not be in as an
alternate. At that point in time we will adjust our authorization
^ either upward or retain the current authorization. We have given
i authorization, at this point in time, to go to bid with the
estimates and the bid alternates.
Councilman Cardman asked, not to exceed 1.15 million?
Mr. Cafferillo replied, right. That's the understanding. We
haven't technically changed our authorization as yet. But the
081
n
I (
Town Board Minutes 25 May 24, 1988
understanding is is that if there is a cooperative agreement that
we would go to the 2.3 for both stations.
Supervisor Desch remarked, but if you were to include individual
controls on the air conditioning you can't give the architect clear
directions to proceed on that unless you have taken action as well,
so you would have to amend your action.
Councilwcman Leary asked how soon could the City do that?
Councilman Cardman remarked, or would you want to do that. There
are two questions here.
Alderman Killeen replied, frankly he did not think the City would
do that lontil they get a response on the bids.
Supervisor Desch replied, you would have to do it, you would have
to redesign the system. You either redesign or you don't.
Alderman Killeen replied, true. The e35)editious thing, it seems to
him, is the Town Board's concurrence with vdiere the City is now or
at 1.15. At a subsequent time this figure may be adjusted as
Deputy Controller Cafferillo just said, for the reasons vdiich would
be your options as well. To move off dead center we have to either
stay with $900,000 or come to 1.15 and we can adjust it later.
Councilman Cardman asked the Supervisor, if we went with the figure
of 1.3 maximum, how would that hinder then in going to bid with the
City being under us and Mr. Cafferillo's ejqjlanation that that is
an estimate and that there may have to be adjustments. Would we
not be sending the signal that we would be willing to go to 1.3?
Supervisor Desch replied, but you couldn't give the architect the
direction to do that unless the City had agreed to it.
1 ' . . - . -
i Councilman McPeak remarked, in order to be consistent we should go
with the City figure.
Councilwcman Leary remarked, and they can still, if they want to,
they can add on the amenities?
Councilman Bordoni replied, that is the option that the City has
but if the Town wants this as part of our resolution it would have
to be so entered, he felt.
Councilwcman Leary replied, well that is my point. If we agree
that these amenities are actually necessities then vdiy don't we
authorize that now instead of having the City do it and then we
have to do it again and they do it again, back and forth? Why
don't we just approve vdiat we think is necessary and then let the
City do \diatever it has to do?
Councilman Bordoni replied that he thought the City's task is to
approve the 1.15 and review the costs of the add ons and then vote
for funding those in addition to the 1.15.
Councilwcman Raffensperger questioned, after the bids ccme in?
Councilman Bordoni stated that his suggestion would be to do it the
same way the City is.
Councilman Bartholf remarked that we have working on this fire
ccninittee for a long time, we have been back and forth, back and
forth on prices and cutting and he felt that if we do set this
figure then are we still going to be kabitzing about putting these
Town Board Minutes 26 May 24, 1988
station \jp because this is putting us back. We were supposed to be
breaking ground in Decen±)er?
Supervisor Desch replied, well you have the risks of the bidding
climate in Ithaca vAiich is a very difficult bidding climate. There
is no guarantee that you will meet this budget. You may be back
here setting together struggling once again. That's v^y we must
move forward as rapidly as possible with vdiatever decision it is we
choose to make.
FIRE STATIONS PROJECT BUDGETS
RESOLUTICM NO. 152
ffotion by Councilman Cardman; seconded by Councilman McPeak,
RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby
authorize the expenditure of $1,150,000 per station, total of
$2,300,000, based on the architects May 5, 1988 design development
report.
(McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary, Bordoni and Cardman voting
Aye. Nays - Desch).
City Engineer Gray stated that he was still hung rp on one item.
He understood what the Board wants on new stations but he had a
estimate of approximately one million dollars on the renovations.
Supervisor Desch replied right, we should adopt a resolution
regarding that. He asked the Boaord what was their pleasure on
this? He went on to say that the resolution on the books for
renovations is $900,000. The current architects estimate,
particularly in relation to the asbestos problems is one million
dollars.
Councilwcxnan Raffensperger asked vdio's estimate is this, it that
also included in the architects estimate of costs on May 5th?
Supervisor Desch replied no, previous.
City Engineer Gray remarked that it's the last page of his ^ril 25
memo. The overall project budget would be 3.3 million dollars.
Councilman Cardman remarked, this is only $100,000 more than you
were planning all along?
Supervisor Desch replied, right. However, in the beginning it was
based on the architects estimates at $600,000.
FIRE STATION RENOVATIONS
RESOLUTIOJ ND. 153
Motion by Councilman McPeak; seconded by Councilman Cardman,
RESOLVED, that the Town Board of the Town of Ithaca hereby
authorize the expenditure of $1,000,000 for renovations based on
the architects estimate.
(McPeak, Raffensperger, Bartholf, Leary, Bordoni and Cardman voting
Aye. Nays - Desch).
Town Board Minutes 27 May 24, 1988
City Engineer Gray asked if he was to assume that these are
separate, are you adopting a budget of 3.3 million or is the Board
adopting or are you adopting two different budgets?
Councilman Cardman asked viiy Mr. Gray was asking?
Mr. Gray replied, because he was the guy v^o eventually has to keep
track.
Councilman Cardman asked if Mr. Gray was suggesting we should be or
should not be.
Mr. Gray replied that in once sense he guessed he did not care
because when the bids cane back it was easier for him there if it's
one project with one dollar figure and then when one goes over and
the other sane in under, if all cone in over we don't care.
Supervisor Desch replied that when the bid packets are put together
you have to have the contractors bid on each separately because the
shares of the costs are different. The Town's share of the
renovations is 27% and the new construction is 70%, so you really
have to keep separate.
Deputy Controller Cafferillo remarked that they were set up as two
separate projects, construction of new stations and renovations.
iUXrOURNMENT
The meeting was duly adjourned.
Town Clerk
98X
ATFiDAv/r or fimxjcAriOK
fSi^
The Ithaca Journal
of ^ork, ?Iomjjkm« Cmxni^,
Lciug duly rw*oni, deposes
And uys^ tL&t Le resides is ItHfics., County Asd stsite Aforesaid And
ttitt be is . clerk ^
of Tta Itbaca Journal a public newspaper printed and published
in Ithaca aforesaid, and that a notice, of whidi the annexed is a true
oop>', was published in said paper
tnd that the first publication of said notice was on the
day of mS'S:..
-
/'*7 ^Subscribed and worn to before me, frKic
rf iKdLdLdLL iQ^
^<dtssr3$?^tt{iSrstI
JEAN FORD
Notary Public, State of New York
No. 4654410
Qualified in Tompkins County
Commission expires May 31, 19./« /
TOWN OF ITHACA ; •
NOTICE OF PUBUC HEARING
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE, that the
Town Board" of "the Town ,of
n llhoco willjheet dnd conduct
o public hearing on AAoy 24,v
19fe, ot 7:00-P.AA, ,o.t tlje'
Town Holl,"-\l2d^ tost Seneca ^
Street. Ithdcb,' New'.York to. j• consider. )he.fi>e.^tatjpn Jjud-
get oWd other fire sen/Ice mot-..
. ,ters-arid ,wlU. fit. this, time ihedr-'
, all persons If) fovpr of pr op
posed fo.said..iTiotters. . V i'
V'f Jedn H..Swartwooy
: -Town Clerk
AAoy :•