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ORDINANCE DEPT. I
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Box 86 � ',It 1 al Town of Lansing
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Lansing , New York 14882
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Planning Board Meeting
6/ 12/00
7 : 00 PM
Lansing Town Hall — Board Room
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Time: Agenda Topics
7:00 PM Meet with Town Attorney to Discuss Private Roads
7 : 30 PM Approve Minutes of 5/22/00
7 :45 PM Public Hearing - Richard Page - Subdivision
Tax Map # 12 .- 1 - 15 . 31 , Old Orchard Road
8 : 15 PM Public Hearing - Richard Thaler - Subdivision
Tax Map #40 :3-2 . 1 , Whispering Pines
8 :45 PM Report of Committees
9 : 00 PM Open for discussion and/or any other business
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Town of L
3 Monday , June 12 , 2000 ; 7 : 00 PM PLANNING BOARD
4 PLANNING BOARD MEMBERS
5 ('Denotes ➢rte)
6 * Brad Griffin , Chair * Jacoba Baker
7 # Larry Sharpsteen * Lin Davidson
8 * Viola Miller David Hatfield
9 * Gregg Travis
10
11 * Bud Shattuck, Town Councilman
12 * George Totman , Zoning and Code Enforcement Officer
13 PUBLIC PRESENT
14 Steve Barnes • 615 Lansing Station Rd, Apt. D- 14
15 Rick Page 212 Cedar Cove
16 Ron Bednar 1157 Warren Rd
17 Pat Gillespie 1155 Warren Rd
18 Kathy & Dale Riegle 1169 Warren Rd
19 Dick Thaler Asbury Rd
® Roy & Nancy Ives 1133 Warren Rd
21 Jim Murphy 1 Arrowood Lane
22 Mary Teft-Wright 9 Whispering Pines Drive
23 Patrick Wright 9 Whispering Pines Drive
24 Maureen Cowen Baker 2 Whispering Pines Drive
25 Caren Baldini 10 Whispering Pines Drive
26 Peter Grossman 32 Chase Lane, Ithaca
27 Dave & Karen Cole 6 Arrowood Lane
28 Kristen Burt 2 Arrowood Lane
29 Kathy Kemple 4 Whispering Pines Drive
30 Matt Shulman Lansing Community News
31
32 GENERAL BUSINESS
33 Brad Griffin called the meeting to order at 7 : 07 PM . Lin Davidson stated that David Hatfield called to say that he
34 would not be able to attend this meeting .
35 Brad Griffin entered the following as judicial notice .
36 Subdivision Rules and Regulations , Town of Lansing, Effective Date : January 16 , 1991 , Page 41
37 Private Roads — Those roads which, in general , are used to provide access to one lot only and arc not to be
38 dedicated to, or accepted or maintained by the Town. If provided to serve more than one lot, a private road
shall be constructed to meet Town specifications for right-of-way, grad and cross -section, as approved b y
the Town Engineer,
•
41 Rich John stated that he was not aware of that provision of the subdivision regulations . Mr. John stated that he was
42 not sure that. the Town Board was aware of it either. Mr. John stated that there have been several private roads •
43 built over the course of the years that he does not think they were built to town specs . Brad Griffin stated that he
r
2 Town of Lansing Planning /loan/. June 12, 2000
1 thinks it is pretty clear Rich John stated that it is a question of what the Town wants. Brad Griffin stated that it is
2 in the ordinance so they have to go by that . Brad Griffin added that on Page 6 of the Subdivision Rules & •
3 Regulations it says ` No approval of a preliminary plat can be given prior to official action by the Town Board
4 concerning the roads . " Brad said his recollection was that Mr . John had stated that had been done in this case .
5 Rich John read the section regarding private roads . Mr. John stated that he did not Lwow if this was limiting the
6 town specs to just those things listed or if it might also include the surface as well. Brad Griffin replied that he
7 would have to take it at face value.
8 George Totman stated that if a private road had to meet town specs, there would be no point in having private
9 roads . hin Davidson stated that sonic people may want to have their exclusive use or they may not want to pay for
to the paving. Rich John stated that it would depend on whether they wanted to enforce this or enforce something less
11 than full town specs . Rich John stated that the Town saves some money when there is a private road, and the
12 developer saves sonic money . Mr. John explained that there is a calculus that a developer would use, and they
13 would figure if they add an additional amount per foot, it will be a town road and it would be out of their hands
14 entirely. Mr. John stated that if they make those two figures close enough he does not think a developer would even
15 consider building a private road .
1.6 Brad stated that the questions the Planning Board came up with were related to matters of safety, emergency
17 vehicles, and the limitations to the liability of the town.
• 18 Viola Miller stated that she does not think they can say that no private roads are allowed, but they can say how they
19 go. Viola stated that in the past, where the private roads were accepted by the town as necessary, they did it
20 according to their specifications . Lin Davidson stated that he thinks it was less rigorous than that. Lin stated that
21 they got the fire chief to go down and say that he could get a fire truck down it and that was as far as it went. Brad
22 Griffin stated that, clearly the authority and jurisdiction would not be that of the Planning Board, but that of the
23 Town Engineer .
24 Gregg Travis stated that the Town Engineer might have different specs for a town road and for a private road . Lin •
25 Davidson stated that he thinks it should be an engineering decision, not a decision of a fire chief. Rich John stated
26 that, from a process standpoint, you could look at it in one of two ways . Mr. John stated that you could have some
27 specific standards for private roads that are different from that of public roads . Mr. John stated that you could also
28 look at it from the standpoint that it is a free country and that they could build the road however they want, but that
29 they would have to have emergency access and that they would be able to maintain the road where there is a
30 functional agreement that everyone that lives there is going to sign and have to be responsible .
31 Brad Griffin stated that this part of the ordinance clearly establishes a competent authority to do that. Brad stated
32 that it is not the part of the Planning Board to second guess the EnginCer or the specs . Brad added that he feels
33 relieved that there is a direction that competent authority is established . Rich John stated that he thinks this could
34 be fleshed out a bit, to say what specifications are not going to be covered by a private road and do some sort of
35 connection to what the specs would be for a public road, just so that someone who is looking at the subdivision
36 regulations would not see any ambiguity . Mr. John stated that in looking at this, it could be interpreted to say a
37 private road has to meet the specs for a public road and he does not know that it says that . Mr. John stated that he
38 thought it was saying that you have to meet certain specs that the Town Engineer says is acceptable for this
39 emergency access issue .
40 Bud Shattuck stated that is sort of what brought up this issue. Bud stated that Mr . Page stated that he built the
41 road according to the Town Engineer. Bud stated that the Town Engineer had given specs to Mr . Sovocool , who in
42 turn gave them to Mr. Page , Bud stated that the Engineer had never seen die road, that he had only given an overall
43 preview of what he wanted . Bud stated that that particular road was already there, but Mr . Page is going to be
44 adding on to it . Lin Davidson stated that he thought what triggered it more than that was the fact that all of a
45 sudden they could have more than 4 houses on a private road . Lin stated that this has implications to greater cause •
46 problems . Rich John stated that when you only have 4 residences on a road, it is not going to be a very long or
47 heavily trafficked road, but when you start adding more residences you increase the densities that are going to be
48 traveling on it and increase the likelihood that there is going to be emergency vehicles going there.
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3 Town onLansing Planning Board, June 12, 2000
1 Viola Miller stated that there is one other item she would like Rich John to address . Viola stated that she can cite
0 instances where there were private roads, where the developer is no longer there, and the people thought the new
owner would be taking care of the land . Viola stated that there was never anything that says who has to take care
4 of that road . George Totman stated that since he has been here, when there is a new private road, there is a draft
5 that has been signed which was developed by the Town. Attorney, and agreed to by the Town Board, where it was in
6 the deeds that they have to take care of the mad and they could never come back and ask the Town to take over the
7 road . Lin Davidson asked what the maintenance of the road is, if someone has the charge to go down the road and
8 make sure it is suitable each year for a 25 -ton truck to go down it. George Totman replied that Pete Larson does
9 not have anything to do with private roads . George stated that he can not give out any permits or anything until the
10 fire department gives their approval . Lin asked if the fire chief, or whoever is appointed to do it, is capable to make
11 the decision that a certain culvert is in such a condition that their trucks can get across it . George stated that they
12 have been doing it and they have not had any problems . Rich John stated that since that is a function of the fire
1. 3 department, it would probably make sense to have this conversation with the fire department. Lin Davidson replied
14 that there was an engineering component as well.
15 Rich John stated that the Town has had some difficult situations because of older private roads , but now the
16 agreement for a private road is very explicit, that it is not going to be a public road .
17 Lin Davidson stated that he thought it was nice that their ordinance is complete. Brad Griffin stated that he was
18 : • comfortable, for the particular situation involved, that this gave a direction of competent authority. Brad thought
19 this gives the Town a reasonable response to a problem situation . Bud Shattuck asked Rich John if he thought
20 more should be added to the ordinance. ML John replied that he thought it gave general direction and it leaves it in
21 the Town Engineer's hands, but it seemed lace it had potential ambiguities in it.
22 Gregg Travis stated one thing they should keep in mind is that in some areas you could have multiple dwellings .
23 Gregg stated that once you get more than one lot you could have a lot traffic because you could have 2 lots with a
total of 50 dwelling units . Viola Miller stated that she would like the attorney to resolve the way it was worded .
Viola stated that she could not see that any multiples are necessarily allowed in the town because it does not
26 specifically say so . Viola stated that it was written in the ordinance pertaining to changing something, but not
27 adding new ones . Gregg Travis disagreed with Viola ' s interpretation_ George Totman stated that when they were
28 looking into the- apartments to go in on North Triphammer he consulted with the Town Attorney and they agreed
29 that they were allowed. Viola Miller stated that she could not help what they agreed to, she is telling them what it
30 says _
31 Larry Sharpsteen stated that they have another problem if they wanted to talk about the apartments . Larry
32 Sharpsteen stated that the old ordinance, which covered that area, did not allow apartments in low-density . Larry
33 stated that by any planner's definition apartment buildings do not belong in a low-density zone . Larry stated that
34 their problem legally, as he sees it, is that they are not allowed to make any ordinance less restrictive than the
35 previous ordinance. Rich John stated that he was not aware of any restriction on changing the laws to make them
36 more restrictive or less restrictive . Bud Shattuck stated that he called Kevin Crawford at the State, and he told him
37 exactly the same thing . Bud stated that you could change them and change them back again . Viola Miller stated
38 that you have to hold public hearings . Bud Shattuck agreed . Bud stated that that had obviously happened because
39 this change had happened recently. Viola Miller stated that it was not done in a specific public hearing.
40 Larry Sharpsteen stated that with the public hearing aside, they were left with the fact that they have an RI district
41 that is not RI , it is not low-density because somebody wrote to allow apartment buildings in a low-density district .
42 Larry Sharpsteen stated that they no longer have a low-density district. Viola Miller stated that they were not
43 conforming to the Comprehensive Plan . Larry agreed .
44 Brad Griffin stated that at the last meeting, they did frame a resolution to this particular point. Brad stated that
Sthere is a limit to the remedies they may effectively seek . Brad stated that they might all be unhappy that the draft
they conveyed was not adopted or presented at a public hearing as they wrote it. Brad stated that they have framed
47 that correction and forwarded it to the Town Board for consideration . Brad stated that beyond that he does not
48 know what reasonable thing they are going to do at this time. Lin Davidson stated that he thinks that is reasonable .
49 Larry Sharpsteen stated that he is relieved to hear that they may not be actionable because they arc not supposed to
50 make an ordinance less restrictive . Brad Griffin stated that he thought they were all relieved to hear that it may not
4 Town of Lansing Planning Board, June 12, 2000
1 apply in law or liability to the Town, but it certainly was not their intent to lessen the amount of protection that
2 existed in any zone by imposing a new ordinance . Rich John stated that there were extensive public hearings on •
3 that zoning ordinance and it was talked to death. Mr. John stated that when it came down to it, people seemed
4 satisfied .
5
6 Approval of Minutes of 5/22/00- Page ', Line 29 . . . Brad Griffin corrected . . . .they built the road . . . Page 3. Line
7 9 . . . Jackie Baker corrected . . . .plots of record . . . .Line 12 . . . Brad Griffin corrected . . . if no dimension . . .Line 16 . . . Brad
8 Griffin corrected . . . .that in the ordinance . . . Line 17 . . . Brad Griffin corrected . . . .going to be new . . . Line 22 . . . Larry
9 Sharpsteen corrected . . . moved to revise _ . . Line 32 . . . Brad Griffin corrected . . . The Board agreed.
10 Larry Sharpsteen moved to accept the minutes as corrected . Lin Davidson seconded . VOTE: ALL iN FAVOR_
H MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY .
12 Public Hearint — Richard Page Subdivision, Tax Map # 13. 4- 15.31.
13 Brad Griffin called the public hearing to order at 7 :47 PM . Brad read the public notice .
14 Viola. Miller stated that she would like a better description of the road that is planned and how it has conic about .
15 Viola stated that they have to consider this before they could go to a final decision. Rick Page replied that the road
16 was already constructed under the advice and guidance of the Town Engineer and the specifications he made to
17 them . Brad Griffin stated that for the interest of all, the Subdivision Rules for the Town of Lansing state that
18 private roads are those roads which, in general, arc used to provide access to one lot only and are not to be
19 dedicated to , or accepted or maintained by, the Town. Brad added that if it is to serve more than one lot, a private
20 road shall be constructed to meet Town specifications for right-of-way, grade and cross -section, as approved by the
21 Town Engineer. Viola Miller stated that it would mean that the Planning Board must be given the approval from
22 the Town Engineer before they can make a final decision . •
23 Brad Griffin stated that there would have to be some assurance that it was done before they sign a final plat . Larry
24 Sharpsteen stated that he did not think they needed stamped drawings, just a simple letter from the Town Engineer
25 stating that. he has reviewed it and it meets the specifications . Rick Page stated that he was confused as he built the
26 road under the advice and guidance of the Town Engineer. Viola stated that all Mr. Page would need is a letter
27 from him then , if that was what was done. Mr. Page stated that that would have been nice to know before he came
28 to this meeting. Viola Miller stated that it is in the regulations .
29 Gregg Travis asked Mr . Page if he had a drawing or a rough sketch of the cross section of the road. Mr . Page
30 explained that it was a 15 ' base with 15 ' of geo . cloth widthwise, and there is about 6 -8 " of crusher run on top of it .
31 Gregg Travis stated that they did not know if that mettown specs because they did not have a town drawing to tell
32 them that. Mr. Page stated that the did what he was told to do by the Town Engineer . Brad Griffin stated that if
33 Mr Page has the Town Engineer indicate to the Planning Board that this was complied with, it would be a
34 reasonable approach . Mr. Page said ok.
35 Larry Sharpsteen asked if this was a preliminary plat approval . Brad Griffin replied that it was for a final plat .
36 Viola Miller stated that it was a preliminary, they have to do a public hearing at die end of a preliminary in order to
37 give the final. George Totman stated that that was not the way they talked about it at the last meeting.
3 $ George Totman stated that he meets with these people before they come to the Planning Board . George stated that
39 the way he explained it to them was that the Planning Board approves of where the road is going, the lay out of the
40 lots , etc . and the Town Board approves the roads . George stated that is the way they did it up there. George
41 explained that the Planning Board approved the subdivision, but he could not give a building permit until the Town
42 Board approved the road . George stated that is the way he has always operated here, now he does not understand
43 what they are doing. George stated that someone better explain it to him before he talks to someone else. Brad •
44 Griffin stated that they could move for approval, but the signature on the final map would await some final
45 assurance from the Town Engineer that it has been complied with .
46 Larry Sharpsteen motioned to accept the final plat and authorize the chairman to sign the final map when he has the
47 letter from the Town Engineer. Viola Miller seconded .
a
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5 Town of Lansing Planning Board, June 12, 2000
1 VOTE : Larry Sharpsteen Aye
1 Viola Miller Aye
Gregg Travis Aye
4 Jackie Baker Aye
5 Brad Griffin Aye
6 Lin Davidson Abstained
7 MOTION CARRIED .
8 Lin Davidson motioned to dose the public hearing at 8 : 10 PM . Gregg Travis seconded . VOTE: ALL IN FAVOR.
9 MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
10 Discussion on Multiple Dwellings in R1. District
11 Matt Shulman stated that he was curious because he had been hearing some conversations about some multiple
12 dwellings going in off of North Triphammer. Matt Shulman asked if that was something that came before the
13 Planning Board or if that was a false-official rumor or possibly fact . Brad Griffin stated that they understand there
14 is an application and that George has indicated to the Board that he has checked with counsel and that is allowed
15 under the ordinance . Brad added that the Board, at the last meeting, felt that the intent of their original draft to the
16 Town Board was not represented. Brad stated that die Planning Board framed a recommendation to the
17 Town Board that that subject be revisited.
IS George Totman stated that a building permit has not been applied for. George stated that before the person spent
19 any money on the project, he wanted to know if the Town was going to approve of it . George explained that that
20 was when he went to the Town Board and the Town Attorney to get an opinion . George stated that the person has
21 been assured that the way the ordinance has been written now that it is ok . George added that the man was working
22 with the health department on the septic systems and has a layout of what it is going to look like. Matt Shulman
asked how he could go about getting more information , George Totman stated that Matt should talk to the person
•
involved . Matt asked who that was . George Totman stated that it was Ron Ronsvalle .
25 Matt. Shulman asked where it was going to be located . George Totman replied that it was the triangle piece of
26 property on the corner of North Triphammer and Hillcrest. • Bud Shattuck asked if it was on the north side of
27 Hillcrest. George replied that it was on the north side. Larry Sharpsteen drew a sketch of where the property was
28 located . Bud Shattuck asked if George knew if Mr. Ronsvalle was planning multiple buildings or just one . George
29 replied that it was more than one. .
30 Viola Miller stated that Brad had said there were public hearings, but she believes there should have been a public
31 hearing to change the zoning . Viola stated that there were public hearings that were just general for the whole
32 town, but there was never any specific hearing on changing the zoning. George Totman stated that if he remembers
33 correctly, the way it was advertised that it was changing the ordinance that they already had. Viola Miller stated
34 that yes, but it was primarily an addition to it . Viola Miller stated that, in the past when there has been a change in
35 zoning, the people in that area were notified that there would be a change in that particular section or area , Brad
36 Griffin stated that his recollection was that all the residents of the town were notified . George Totman stated that
37 that was correct. Viola Miller stated that was ok, she stands corrected . George Totman added that they were very
38 careful in stating that it was not a new ordinance, that it was a revision of the old ordinance .
39 Financial Report
40 Jackie Baker stated that they had spent very little money, as of April 11 , 2000 they had spent $ 225 . Jackie Baker
41 stated that they still had $ 5 ,274 . Jackie explained that the money spent was for Planning Federation Membership,
42 Southern Tier Building Officials Association, maps, and office supplies . Bud Shattuck stated that the maps he had
43 made up for their planning purposes for the second meeting of the month will probably be charged back to the
0 Planning Board . Bud stated that he had received a statement, but not a bill for those . Bud stated that the maps
• were rather extensive because he had all the overlays put in.
46
47
6 Town of Lansing Planning Board, June 12, 2000
i Public Hearing, Richard Thaler - Whispering Pines Subdivision , 'Fax Map 1140.-3-2. 1.
2 George Totman gave each Board member a letter from the people in the Whispering Pines subdivision. The •
3 members of the Planning Board read the letter.
4 Brad Griffin welcomed the public on behalf of the Town of Lansing Planning Board . Brad Griffin read the legal
5 notice , Brad Griffin opened the public hearing at 8 : 15 PM .
6 Dick Thaler explained his proposal . Mr. Tinier stated that the reason he went with 2 -acre lots is that they are now
7 in the wooded area as opposed to the open area where the first two phases were . Mr. Thaler stated that they wanted
8 to preserve as many of the trees as they could . Mr. Thaler explained that the placement of the homes was going to
9 be in such a way that a minimum amount of destruction of the trees was going to happen . Mr. Thaler added that
10 they also have less ground cover in the new area, and with a 2-acre lot they would automatically qualify for a sand
1 i filter as opposed to a lateral septic system .
12 Mr. Thaler addressed the concerns listed in the letter. Mr. Thaler stated that the road would not be a direct route to
13 Warren Road . Mr . Thaler stated that as for the water pressure concern., it is hoped that sometime during the next •
14 few years there will be a connection between Water Districts 9 and 14 in order to level the water pressure between
15 the two systems . Mr . Thaler stated that the restrictions on the lots would be the same . Mr_ Thaler stated that he
16 was very much concerned, as were the neighbors , about preservig the woods . Mr. Thaler stated that as for the
17 turn around, he did not have any objection to moving the turnaround to the south . Mr . Thaler stated that the long
18 terra plan for Arrowood Lane was that there would be a connecting road that will go to the north , that would then
19 connect with another road that will connect with Warren Road, just as it was shown with the original plan . Mr.
20 Thaler explained that the reason the whole plan was not laid out was because when Lany Fabroni went out there,
21 he found that when the county redid Warren Road, they blocked off the natural drainage, therefore the stream that
22 goes through the wooded area is backed up . Mr. Thaler stated that one of the things they need to do is sit down
23 with the highway superintendent and have him put in a sluice along Warren Road so the natural waterway would be
24 re-established. Mr . Thaler explained that once that is done, they will know what the drainage is on the property and •
25 they can lay out the rest of the lots . Mr. Thaler stated that there was also an architect working on having a sign
26 constructed of brick and wood for the Whispering Pines subdivision .
27 Brad Griffin stated that they would like to give everyone whom wants to speak the opportunity to do so . Brad
28 asked that everyone clearly stated their name and address for the record .
29 Debbie Wood stated that one of the issues that Mr. Thaler did not address was the one having to do with the speed
30 limit. Ms . Wood stated that she has been known to go out and stop school busses and a lot of trucks that are
31 speeding along at 40 miles an hour. Mr . Tinier responded that he could not establish a speed limit, that the Town
32 Board does that with the permission of the State . Mr. Thaler stated that they would have to make a petition to the
33 Town Board . Bud Shattuck stated that he thought they already approved that for that road through the Town
34 Board a couple of months ago and were now waiting for the State to respond . George Totman stated tint normally
35 it is done by having a petition for a specific road, but in this case it was done on a universal basis with a lot of
36 roads involved, looking at the safety of the town and it was passed on to the State. Mr. Totman stated that it was
37 done by the Lansing Highway Superintendent. Ms . Wood asked if that included Hillcrest . Bud Shattuck replied
38 that it included all of Hillcrest. Ms . Wood asked how long it would take to get that approved . it was explained that
39 it depends on how long it takes the people in Albany to act on it , Viola Miller added that the State does not always
40 approve it .
41 Dale Riegle stated that his first indication of any of this was the letter he received a week or so ago . Mr. Riegle
42 stated that he came with more questions than comments . Mr. Riegle stated he was just looking for more
43 information about what was going to be happening across the street from his house . Mr . Thaler explained that
44 when the original subdivision was filed, he did not own the Berick property and now what he wanted to do was add
45 that property to the Whispering Pines subdivision so it has the same restrictions . Mr. Riegle asked where the
46 connecting road would connect onto Warren Road . Mr . Thaler responded that it would probably connect where the •
47 house is. Mr. Thaler stated that he made a commitment to the Planning Board and to the Town Board that it would •
48 connect to a road that would come back from Grandview . Mr . Thaler stated that the house will eventually be torn
49 down and the road would be just north of that. Mr . Riegle asked how many lots that parcel along Warren Road
r . . -. :, ,
7 Town of Lansing Planning Board, June 12. 2000
I would be divided into. Mr. Thaler responded that it would be divided into 4 lots, but he was asking for the
• approval of 3 lots right now.
3 Jim Murphy asked how much of the original subdivision plan had been approved by the Planning Board. Mr.
4 Thaler stated that the original plan was approved in phases . Mr- Thaler stated that he submitted the whole plan to
5 the Town because it included the connection of a road . Mr. Murphy asked if the whole plan was engineered and
6 designed . Mr. Thaler responded that it was not. Mr . Murphy asked if he had it approved with just this kind of
7 design . Mr. Thaler stated that lie had preliminary approval . Mr. Murphy asked if the Board members were
8 familiar with that layout . Mr. Murphy stated that he thought that was an approved subdivision, that he bought his
9 lot based on what was going to be in the neighborhood . Brad Griffin looked at the plan to which Mr. Murphy was
10 referring. Brad stated that it was the original conceptual plan from 1986 . Mr. Murphy stated that he thought that
11 plan was shown to every homeowner that bought a lot . Mr. Murphy stated that his question was whether the
12 Planning Board approved that design in 1986 . Mr. Thaler responded that the Planning Board approved the
13 subdivision in a preliminary manner and told him that he would have to come back in phases and that was what he
14 was doing .
15 Mr. Murphy stated that he would like to ask the Planning Board something . Mr. Murphy stated that that was the
16 original proposal in 1986, and it looked like a pretty well designed layout. Mr. Murphy stated that most of the
17 people were concerned because this new phase was not the neighborhood they bought into . Mr. Murphy asked if
- 18 any of the present board members were on the Planning Board at thaftime , Larry Sharpsteen replied that he was .
19 Viola Miller also stated that she was . Larry Sharpsteen explained that what Mr. Murphy had was a conceptual
20 layout for the entire subdivision . Larry stated that at the time, the subdivision was approved to go forward in
21 phases . Larry Sharpsteen stated that the Planning Board approved of Phases I & II . Larry stated that this is a
22 proposal for a change to the overall schedule, proposed as Phase III . Larry Sharpsteen stated that over 14 years a i
23 lot of things change . Larry stated that the flow through an area may change, more land may be acquired, and the
0 subdivision regulations allow for more land to be added or taken away as an adjustment to the original plan . Mr .
Murphy stated that he understood that, but what he was saying was that the original design looked pretty good .
26 Mr . Murphy stated that with the changes, he probably would not have bought his lot in this neighborhood .
27 Mr, Murphy stated that if water or septic was an issue, then shouldn 't they be looking at sewer systems or what
28 other alternatives they have, other than changing what looked like a pretty good design to a design that dead ends a
29 neighborhood differently than what they were shown when they bought their lots . Brad Griffin stated that given
30 Larry Sharpstecn 's response, was there a particular remedy Mr. Murphy sought or would recommend . Mr .
31 Murphy stated that Mr . Thaler could stick with the original design and just take two lots and make them l lot where
32 there is a water problem and preserve the neighborhood the way it was designed . Mr. Murphy stated that if you put.
33 water and sewer through , it solves the whole problem . Mr . Thaler replied that 14 years ago, when he first came to
34 the Town with this subdivision, it was presumed that within 5 years they were going to have sewer. Mr. Thaler
35 stated that they are now 14 years later and they still do not have sewer. Mr. Thaler stated that what he trying to do
36 what Mr. Murphy said and combining two 1 -acre lots into one 2-acre lot . Mr. Murphy replied that you could do
37 that same thing taking the original design and combining two lots and still maintain the streets .
38 Mary Wright stated that she does appreciate that Mr. Thaler wants to preserve the trees . Mrs . Wright asked Mr.
39 Thaler if there were no trees there when he submitted the original proposal . Mrs . Wright stated that she was one of
40 the last people to buy directly from Mr. Tinier and that was three years ago and he was talking about the same
41 proposal then . Mrs . Wright asked what has changed so much in the last three years . Mrs . Wright stated that since
42 he thought they were going to get sewer and now they have been waiting 14 years and still no sewer, how do they
43 know the water pressure problems would not be the same 14 years from now . Mrs . Wright also asked how the
44 additional houses going to be built would impact them . Mrs . Wright stated that another concern was that she
45 bought her house because it was on a street that was not accessed very much . Mrs . Wright stated that it looked like
0 this would be a shortcut from Warren Road unless there would be some configuration that would discourage it.
Mrs . Wright stated that another concern was what Mr . Thaler planned for the middle of the lot, as it was not
48 shown . Mr. Thaler responded that it would depend on whether or not the proposal for sewer goes through . Mr .
49 Thaler stated that it is his understanding that there is discussion between the Town of Lansing, City of Ithaca ,
50 Town of Ithaca, Village of Lansing, and the Village of Cayuga Heights . Mr. Thaler stated that it was his feeling
51 that the engineer that designed these lots, Mr . Fabroni , intentionally left that area blank in order to maximize the
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8 Town of Lansing Planning Board June I2. 2000
1 atmosphere of the environment based upon whether or not there is going to be sewer. Mr. Thaler stated that if there
2 is not going to be a sewer, then probably what is going to happen would be that there would be a retainage pond •
3 with the road configuration the way it was originally. Mr. Thaler stated that the reason they dead ended
4 Whispering Pines Drive is because you would be right in the middle of a very densely wooded area and lie did not
5 want to take out more trees . Mr. Thaler explained that with Arrowood they could go to the north to the road that
6 was in the original plan . Mr. Thaler stated that the whole design is the best use of the land, and with that he wanted
7 to keep the environment.
8 Mrs . Wright said that back to her original question, what has changed in the throe years since he sold her the
9 property . Mr. Thaler replied that in order to get the houses in there he had to go to 2 -acre parcels to avoid having
10 to take out the trees for the septic systems .
I 1 Caren Baldini stated that her lot was covered with trees when she bought it and they spent a lot of money taking
12 down trees and that was not a concern at the time . Ms . Baldini stated that she bought the land with the intention of
13 what the neighborhood was planned to look like when they were shown the map . Ms . Baldini stated that on that
14 map there was supposed to be two more lots to the east of her, not a turn around as shown on this proposal . Ms .
15 Baldini stated that she could honestly say that she would not have bought the lot with a turnaround next to her. Ms .
16 Baldini stated that she is requesting the turnaround be moved because she does want it next to her and because it
17 will take down more trees. Ms . Baldini stated that there is already a turnaround on the lot past the Wrights . Mr.
18 Thaler stated that that lot has been sold and there will be a house constructed there . Mr. Thaler stated that he
19 would do anything he could do to accommodate Ms . Baldini as far as the turnaround is concerned . Ms . Baldini
20 stated she would like the Planning Board not to approve the plan until they see the plan , *hen the turnaround has
21 been moved .
22 Rue Chagoll stated that it seems to him there are a few open ended issues that he thought should be weighed . One
23 was the issue of sewers that Mr . Thaler had addressed by combining lots and another that continues to be of
24 concern to him was water service . Mr. Chagoll stated that it was not Mr. Thaler ' s fault, but something that Mr . •
25 Chagoll had a concern about as a homeowner, Mr . Thaler had addressed with hope that things might improve with
26 a combination of water districts . Mr . Chagoll suggested the Planning Board consider that, and put some
27 contingencies on an approval . Mr. Thaler stated that he would be willing to dedicate a right of way for water to
28 conte up from District 9 to District 14 , because it was his understanding that that eventually should be done
29 because of the water pressure problems . Mr. Thaler stated that he had said that to the Town Board and now was
30 saying it to the Planning Board that he is willing to give that right-of-way for that pipeline to be put in now if they
31 are willing to accept it. Mr. Murphy stated that in the development process, isn ' t the developer responsible for
32 putting water into the future lots ? Mr. Thaler replied that was correct, but they are responsible to do so as they
33 develop the lots . Mr. Thaler stated but if they want it now, he would be glad to give them the right-of-way, but that
34 it was not his cost to do it now, he would do it as he develops the land .
35 Patrick Wright stated that he empathized with Mr. Thaler not being able to present a whole plan until he gets more
36 information . But on the other hand as Mr. Wright looked at what was being proposed it struck him that there was
37 going to be 2 to 3 acres of blank space behind those two lots . Mr . Wright stated that that does not seem wise to
38 him to go forward without, not necessarily an approved plan, but at least some information about what was going
39 to happen between the current neighborhood and Warren Road . Mr. Wright stated that he thought that was where a
40 lot of the concerns around the neighborhood were .
41 Ryan Sun stated that when he saw the new map , one of the concerns he had was that the new road seemed to have
42 the potential to connect to Warren Road very quickly. Mr. Sun stated that he understands that Mr . Thaler can not
43 really disclose the potential plan for the rest of the subdivision. Mr. Sun stated that he is an engineer and he is
44 really concerned about any design where there is something behind it and he wished they had more information
45 about what is planned . Mr. Sun stated that he is very concerned that people will use it as a shortcut between
46 Warren Road and Hillcrest. Mr. Thaler stated that he was concerned about that also and it will not happen . •
47 Mr . Murphy asked Mr. Thaler if he would use his original design if they had sewer in that neighborhood . Mr.
48 Thaler stated that he would probably go with the 1 -acre lots . Mr. Murphy stated that from a community
49 perspective, wouldn 't it be better to push for a sewer district and go with that design rather than chop up a
50 neighborhood . Mr. Thaler replied that he had been trying to get a sewer district up there ever since he was the
If : v • . . .
9 Town of Lansing Planning Board, June 12, 2000
I Town Attorney, which was in 1987 . Mr. Thaler stated that there has to be an agreement and right now there is not
• a sewer agreement . Mr. Murphy asked if the Planning Board was the board to get that ball rolling .
3 Larry Sharpsteen responded stating that Town of Lansing Planning Board and Town Board have been trying to get.
4 a sewer district developed for close to 30 years. Larry stated that they have been completely shut out historically
5 by the City of Ithaca. Larry stated that the current developments in the inter-municipal sewer district cooperation is
6 a direct outgrowth of the Town of Lansing sitting down and deciding to build their own sewage treatment plant,
7 getting a combination of private and public funds to do so and getting the permitting process going with the
8 Department of Environmental Conservation (D . E . C) .
9 Larry added that the plan was to get a sewer treatment plant in the Town of Lansing to serve the central area and
10 the area this subdivision is i.n, was in the third phase of that plan . Larry stated the D . E. C . thought it was a really
11 good idea, but wanted it pulled in with the concept of regional cooperation, and said they would fund the project
12 withloans , amounting to about 70% of what was needed except that Lansing would not be able to build their own
13 treatment plant, they would have to take an alternate plan and construct a trunk feeder to the Cayuga Heights plant
14 or to the City of Ithaca. Larry stated that there was also about $7 million dollars in it to develop improvements to
15 the City of Ithaca plant. Larry stated that it has been in committee for about 14 months and no one has put pen to
16 paper. Larry stated that the City seems to want assurances that the Town of Lansing will promise to curtail
17 residential and commercial development, and they also want water from Bolton Point.
18 Larne Sharpsteen explained that it has not been a lack of planning, but has been a lack of cooperation to allow them
19 to proceed.
20 Kristen Burt stated that what she was hearing was that there is not really a feasibility that sewer would come into
21 play before this plan comes into play . Larry Sharpsteen stated that was correct. Larry added that even if the
22 approvals happened tomorrow, there would be about 3 years of construction time . Kristen asked if there was
anything they, as a community, could do to speed up the process . Larry Sharpsteen stated that unless they can vote
in the City of Ithaca there is not much they can do. Larry added that the Sewer Committee, the Planning Board and
25 the Town Board of the Town of Lansing had been working cooperatively on this for about 4 years .
26 Mr. Murphy stated that in answer to his question, looking at this development plan, it was because of the sewer that
27 they are going to hack up a nice neighborhood. Larry Sharpsteen stated that he does not see how reducing density
28 hacks up a neighborhood . Larry Sharpsteen stated that Mr. Thaler' s plan uses the land up, and there would be
29 fewer people living on it . Mr. Murphy stated that the people that already bought there bought 1 -acre lots . Larry
30 Sharpsteen stated that he was sure they probably had the option to buy a second lot. Mr. Murphy stated that is
31 exactly what he is proposing, have someone buy two lots if they have water or sewer problems .
32 Dick Thaler stated that he has waited three years to do Phase III . Mr. Thaler stated that the lots he thought were
33 going to be developed first were going to be the ones closest to Arrowood . Mr. Thaler stated that he was shown the
34 plans for the house that is planned to be built, and he thinks they would all be pleased . Mr. Thaler stated that there
35 would also be a spec . house built by him and a partner that will be somewhere in the range of $ 350 , 0000 on one of
36 the 2-acre lots . Mr. Thaler stated that he did not want to have a scrambled subdivision any more than they did .
37 Mr. Thaler stated that his hands were tied because of the inter-municpal cooperation. Mr. Thaler added that he
38 does not want to wait another 3 years to see what is going to happen . Mr . Tinier stated that he does not want to
39 have a raceway from Warren Road to Hillcrest and he wants to help with the water pressure and he will meet with
40 the Town Board to see if they can work out something .
4 t Caren Baldini stated that the point remains that what Mr . Tinier in proposing is totally different from what they
42 were told , Ms . Baldini stated that she wanted to ask the Planning Board some procedural questions because she
43 had never been there before . Ms . Baldini asked how the things that Mr . Thaler said he would consider doing would
44 be incorporated in whatever the Planning Board decided tonight .
® Brad Griffin reviewed the concerns listed in the letter. Brad stated that deed restrictions are not matters that are
46 imposed or enforced by a planning board, they are by private arrangement. Dick Thaler stated that the could tell
47 them that they were going to be the same . Brad stated that in the matter of water pressure, they would not second
43 guess the Town Engineer' s estimate of that. Brad stated that in the matter of the speed limit, as Mr. Shattuck had
49 indicated, that was already underway. Brad stated that in regard to the turnaround, Mr. Thaler has indicated that
1. 0 Town ofLansin Planning Board. June 12 2000
1 he would review that with the residents to see if there was a more favorable accommodation . Brad Griffin stated
2 that as for the long term plan, he would say that there are limits to what Mr. Thaler or any developer could foresee. •
3 Peter Grossman clarified that the subdivision regulations require that any restrictions that are going to be part of a
4 subdivision be approved by the Town before sunning the final plat. Dick Thaler stated that that was originally done
5 and that was why he said all restrictions would stay the same. Larry Sharpsteen stated that since this is the third
6 phase of an existing subdivision, the Planning Board proceeded on the understanding that the covenants and
7 restrictions were in force for this phase, just as they did for the second phase . Larry Sharpsteen stated that the way
8 the subdivision regulations are written., in a phased development, they stay as originally presented until they are
9 presented as being changed . Larry added that in point of fact, if they arc changed and people are living in the
10 subdivision, it has to be approved by the residents . Larry stated that no change in the covenants or restrictions have
11 been presented .
12 Jim Murphy stated that they were concerned with the design of the lots. Mr. Murphy stated that the design kind of
l3 dead ends the street. Mr . Murphy stated that if someone wanted to take advantage of how many building lots you
14 could get in they could extend the road and come up with a plan of how they would do it. Mr . Murphy stated that
15 this just puts lots at the end of the streets and almost land locks the road for future growth . Viola Miller stated that
16 Mr. Thaler was requested at the time to do everything according to Town specifications as far as roads were
17 concerned and he will continue to have to do that and he also gave the Town the written understanding that there
I8 would be an easement given to connect roads . Viola Miller stated that there has been a plan since 1986 for
19 connecting the roads .
20 Peter Grossman asked Mr . Thaler if his recollection was correct, that Mr. Thaler indicated that the connector to
21 Warren Road was not intended to be a direct connection to Arrowood. Mr . Thaler responded that that was correct,
22 it would be perpendicular, at a 90 degree angle, go to the north, then another 90 degree angle and then go to Warren
23 Road . Mr. Grossman stated that thatwas similar to what was proposed originally . Mr. Thaler replied that it was
24 similar except that there would be 2 -acre lots rather than 1 -acre lots so there would not be as many . •
25 Larry Sharpstecn stated that although it might not be a bad idea for Mr. Thaler to provide a revised general plan , he
26 thought it would be a mistake for anyone to construe any revised plan for the uncompleted portion of the
2? subdivision, that is not under consideration as a phase of development at this time, to be cast in stone.
28 Debbie Wood asked if the overall plan for any new lots would be for single family dwellings . Dick Thaler
29 responded that they would absolutely be single family dwellings .
30 Gregg Travis asked Mr . Thaler if the next phase would be for the rest of the property . Mr. Tinier stated that it
31 would not as there were too many acres . Mr . Thaler stated that the next phase would go to the north rather than
32 toward Warren Road ,
33 Peter Grossman asked, if by some miracle the sewer was passed, would phase four or five be 1 -acre lots again . Mr .
34 Thaler stated that lie would like to see that happen . Mr. Grossman stated that Mr. Thaler is reserving some
35 flexibility then . Mr. Thaler agreed .
36 Mr. 'Thaler stated that he would get together with the engineer and Ms . Baldini within the week to discuss the
37 turnaround , if that would be ok with Ms . Baidini . Ms . Baldini replied that it would be, as long as Mr. Grossman
38 was available .
39 Larry Sharpsteen motioned to adjourn the Public Hearing at 9 : 15PM until July 10, 2000 . Lin Davidson seconded .
40 VOTE : ALL IN FAVOR. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY .
41 OTHER BUSINESS
42 The Board discussed the minutes of the EMC meeting.
43 Man Shulman stated that he attended a meeting on June 9, 2000, at the DEC about the sewer. Matt. stated that •
44 Steve Parkas also attended . Matt stated that it was not contentious, but it was a difficult meeting. Matt stated
45 there were two scenarios presented . One was the base plan , which is what they were pretty much familiar with
46 which included the State contributions and added three new things for the next round of funding . Another was
47 called the bare bones plan, which stipulated that there was no additional money coming in, showing the same plan,
11 Town of Lansing Planning Board, June 12. 2000
1 but the cost shifted from state supported to Lansing ' s local benefit district . Matt Shulm.un stated that there were i
•40questions raised about what money might be available. 'There were other people competing for this money.
Viola Miller stated that she had always wanted to say that if there was anything anyone wanted brought up or
t
4 discussed at the Plzuining Federations meetings, please give that to her to take to the meeting.
5 Bud Shattuck stated that on Tuesday, June 13 , 2000, from 4 : 00-6 : OOPM , the Freedom Of Information Officer will
o be at the Town Hall to answer questions from all the towns .
7 Bud Shattuck stated that, at some point, they need to get those maps out and start doing some planning . Bud stated
8 that they have not talked about a second meeting in June, but he thought the Town Board was still asking how much
9 planning they were able to get done. The board discussed having the second meeting. The next meeting was set for
to June 26 at 7 : 30 PM .
11 Larry Sharpsteen stated that in regards to the EMC, he had been approached with the suggestion that the Town of
12 Lansing Town Board and Planning Board and the Village of Lansing Boards meet together for the presentation of
13 the UNA by the EMC . Larry stated that he suggested they take that to the Town Board, but that from the Planning
14 Board standpoint, there becomes a point where a group gets too large .
15 Jackie Baker motioned to adjourn at 9 :47PM . Lin Davidson seconded . VOTE : ALL IN FAVOR . MOTION
16 CARRIED .
0