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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2000-04-10 _ T;, Seneca Falls I : Au : Jrn � 1:40WN of LANSING Vcire of Industry, Agriculture and Scenic Beauty " •C 34111 G ' 1>4, N Town of Lansing ` , , ;y ORDINANCE DEPT. yl �` � t1 Box 186 \( � ' 1 Town of Lansing Lansing, New York 14882 ti ' To Ithaca Planning Board Meeting 4/ 10/00 7 : 30 PM Lansing Town Hall — Board Room gend a • Time: Agenda Topics 7: 30 PM Open Meeting , Approve Minutes of 3/27/00 7 :45 PM Subdivision Request from Richard Page Jr. Parcel C Tax Map # 12.- 1 - 15 . 31 Review Activities of Planning Board Concerning the Town of Lansing Land Use Ordinance Committee Reports Any Other Business One Deems Important to Bring before the Board . 4 • Page 1 1 TownofLansing 2 3 Monday, April 10 , 2000 ; 7 : 30 PM PLANNING BOARD 4 PLANNING BOARD MEMBERS 5 (•Omuta present) 6 * Brad Griffin , Chair * Jacoba Baker 7 Larry Sharpsteen * Lin Davidson 8 Viola Miller David Hatfield 9 * Gregg Travis 10 1 I * Bud Shattuck, Town Councilman 12 * George Totman. Zoning and Code Enforcement Officer 13 PUBLIC PRESENT 14 Rick Page 212 Cedar Cove Rd 15 Richard Page, Sr . 210 Cedar Cove Rd 16 Steve Barnes 615 Lansing Station Rd 17 18 GENERAL BUSINESS 09 Brad Griffin called the meeting to order at 7 : 32 PM . 20 Brad Grimm stated that Herb Beckwith had given courtesy calls to notify Town bodies of the fact that AES 21 Cayuga is releasing news of a multi -million dollar project reducing the pollution produced by the plant by up to 22 95 %. 23 Brad Griffin stated that he and Larry Sharpsteen met with the Town Board on April 5 , 2000 . Brad stated that they 24 portrayed the pros and cons of site plan review in the RA district. Brad stated that they just wanted to do it from a 25 philosophical standpoint . Brad added that they did not expect a thumbs up or thumbs down from the Town Board, 26 but to give them something to think about . Bud Shattuck stated that he had called each of the board members ahead 27 of time to let them know Brad and Larry were coming and he spoke with them again afterwards and it certainly 28 seems like a reasonable thing to do . 29 Brad Griffin stated that some time ago he prepared, on behalf of the Planning Board, a deposition on the 30 Ottenschott property. Brad stated that one could say that it was one of many acts the Town took that really lit a 31 fuse . Brad stated that he thinks it is moving into a situation that is going to benefit the Town for a long time to 32 come . 33 Brad stated that, in perhaps a more positive possibility, he thinks they can not only recognize examples of very 34 adverse developments in the town, but also recognize businesses and residences that have created very good 35 examples of land use in the town . Brad stated that his thought was that in cases where they notice, within the town, 36 exceptionally good land use in business and industry that they recommend to the Town Board some special 37 recognition . 38 Larry Sharpsteen entered at 7 : 39PM dis19 Lin Davidson asked if' Brad had in mind a set of overall standards . Brad responded that he did not know, that is Sri one of the questions they would have to think about . Brad Griffin stated that back in history when he supervised 41 other human beings, the very best part of it was catching people doing something right. Brad stated that he hopes 42 that still works . Lin Davidson agreed . • 2 7bwn of Lansing Planning Board, April 10, 2000 1 Approval of Minutes of 3/27100- Page 2. Line 3 . . . Jackie Baker corrected . . . stated that he asked . . . Line 5 . . . Brad 2 Griffin corrected _ . . stated he spoke with . . . Line 22 . . . Brad Griffin corrected . . . restraining order . . . Line 35 . . . Larry 3 Sharpsteen clarified . . . the Planning Board has to accept . . . l'a.2e 4, Line 6 . . . Brad Griffin corrected . . . Larry 4 Sharpsteen stated that he does not think . . . Line 24 . . . Brad corrected , . . make sure things are done right . . . Larry 5 Sharpsteen motioned to accept the minutes as corrected . Lin Davidson seconded . VOTE : ALL IN FAVOR. 6 MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY . 7 8 Rick Paue , Subdivision Request .Tax Map #12.-1.4531 - Rick Page explained that last summer he bought 2 9 parcels of land from Roger Sovocool . Mr Page explained where the property was located and stated that he built 10 the road clown to this properly . Rick Page stated that what he would like to do is subdivide one of the lots into three 11 parcels , all of which are more than 3 acres . Rick explained that. lots I and 2 joined the existing road that is already 12 constructed . Rick Page explained that Roger Sovocool had proposed a corridor there for future use . Mr. Page 13 explained that it would be his plan to construct that corridor by July because the conditions now are not good for 14 making a road , it is too wet . Brad Griffin asked who would own the road once it was constructed . Mr . Page 15 replied that Mr . Sovocool would own the road . Rick Page explained that the agreement between him and Mr . 16 Sovocool was that Mr . Page would build the roads and Mr . Sovocool would own them . Mr. Page stated that 17 anyone who has property on this road has a right of way established for use of the road . Brad Griffin asked if it 18 was a permanent easement. Mr. Page replied that it was . 19 Lin Davidson stated that it was a private road and that there must be sonie criteria that it must meet for emergency 20 vehicles and such . George Totman stated that it must be built so that police and emergency vehicles can go in and 2 I out . Lin Davidson stated that it must have to have a crown and some degree of base . George Totman stated that 22 up to this point they have used the services of the Town Engineer to tell them how to do it . Rick Page stated that 23 they build it to the specifications the Town Engineer has laid out for them . Lin Davidson asked if the exiting road 24 was built to his specifications . Mr. Page said yes . Lin Davidson asked if Mr. Page would say it was built right . 25 Mr . Page said yes . Lin said that it was built to the Town Engineer' s specifications . Mr . Page replied that it was . 26 Lin stated that he does not see any crown on it or anything, but as long as it makes the people happy, he just wants 27 to make sure the "Town is not going to be looking at the other end of it . Rick Page stated that the built the road, they 28 were scrambling to gel it in before winter last year so it is not completely finalized, which he plans to complete as 29 soon as the weather permits . Lin Davidson stated that he understands there is a construction season, but there is 313 not. a lot of width and currently he does not think that it is to the standard of the other road that comes in to the 31 south side , Rick stated that he would say this road is built better than that one . Rick Page explained that the built 32 from the first stream over, and what Lain is talking about is the existing road that has been there for years and that 33 part has not been touched . Rick stated that he and Roger plan to use the road association hinds to get that up to the 34 same grade as the other, but they ran out of time last year . Lin Davidson stated that lie could understand that . 35 Brad Griffin asked if there was some indication of the topography on this site . Brad explained that once the 36 Planning Board made a visit to a site they were about to approve and the site looked a lot different than the paper . 37 Brad explained that they were looking out into a gully where the septic systems would have to hang 100 feet in the 38 air , Rick Page stated that this is gradual grade. Bud Shattuck asked George Totman if lie had an elevation map . 39 George replied that he did not. Mr. Page explained the grade on the site. Brad Griffin asked what would be the. 40 greatest grade on the proposed road . Dick Page stated that in tenn.s of percent of grade, he was not prepared to 41 answer that; but stated that it is certainly flatter than Cedar Cove and parts ofAlgerine . Larry Sharpsteen asked if 12 they had some old topo maps from when Roger Sovocool did the original subdivision . George Totman looked 43 through Mr . Sovocool ' s file, but did not have a topo map . Rick Page stated that this would not be a difficult thing 44 to build , estimating that at most it would be a 30 foot rise over maybe 200 Feet. Larry Sharpsteen stated that was 45 about 15 percent . Mr . Page explained where the significant drops were on the map . 46 Brad Griffin stated to George that this was not an official application and asked if that was correct. George 47 Totman replied that he assumed that it was . Gregg Travis asked what phase of the application they were supposed 1110 48 to be looking at . (tick Page replied that he assumed it was the approval phase . Rick Page explained that he has 49 been talking with George Totman and Rich John, going over the issues that may arise, got the letter together and 50 filled out the application . 3 Town of Lansing Planning Board, April Q 2000 1 Larry Sharpsteen asked that in the past, hasn ' t the Planning Board been held to the standard that they have not been ®2 able to approve subdivisions on private roads . Larry stated that he was thinking specifically of a division of land 3 that was attempted to be made south of Ross Road and the subdivision was not allowed because it was off of a 4 private road . George Totman replied that he gave the Planning Board members a copy of the Town .Attorney 's 5 determination of policy stating that they were wrong . Bud Shattuck agreed, stating that is when the Town was 6 thinking they were only allowed so many lots on a private road . George Totman stated that through the Town 7 Attorney and the State Department ' s Attorneys, it was decided that that information was not true and they did not S know where the Town got that information. 9 Lin Davidson stated that they do not have an application, they do not have a SEQRA, and asked why they do not 10 have that . George Totman replied that they have to do a SEQRA on everything . Lin asked what the process was 11 here. George 'fotrnaam stated that he forgot to give them the SEQRA, that it was his fault. Rick Page stated that he 12 did not understand what they were talking about . Larry Sharpsteen replied that it was a State Environmental 13 Quality Review Act, a short form filtering, like a questionnaire that the applicant fills out , The Planning Board 14 reviews it and a determination is made as to whether a short form is enough or if a long form needs to be done . 15 Larry stated that it has to do with potential effects on the land, and they are also supposed to take into account 16 historical and archeological applications, effects on wildlife acid plant-life . Brad Griffin stated that it is a form that 17 the applicant submits and that the Planning Board completes . George Totman gave a copy of the SEQRA form to 18 Rick Page, stating that he is supposed to fill out the front and the Planning Board does the back . George apologized 19 stating that it was his fault that he forgot to give it to Mr . Page . Brad Griffin stated that they have always had an 20 application as well . Rick Page stated that he filled out an application . Brad replied that he did not have that . 21 George Totman showed it to Brad Griffin and stated that he sent that to everybody for the February meeting . Brad 22 Griffin stated that he remembers getting notice of it, but not the application . 23 Lin Davidson stated that there is also a drainage aspect to the SEQRA application . Larry Sharpsteen stated that gli4 what Lin is talking about is that the percentage of each lot that is going to be developed into impermeable or 15 impervious materials, or in other words, the amount that is going to be covered by pavement or by a roof, has an 26 effect on the gathering of water and the run -off and that has to be taken into account too. 27 Larry Sharpsteen stated that his concern was that they were doing something in which the precedent was established 28 in the opposite direction . Larry stated that they have already turned down subdivisions that, on the surface, look 29 the same to him . Larry asked if that means those people are going to turn around and sue the Town , Brad Griffin 30 stated that George has apprized them that the previous view was incorrect so whatever that liability may be , he 31 cannot answer . George Totman replied that he asked the Town Attorney that same question and his response was 32 that they would be in worse shape, knowing what they know now if they kept following that. 33 Gregg Travis explained that the Planning Board has to classify the subdivision as a major a minor because once 34 that determination is made, it determines what process they need to go through . Rick Page stated that he thought 35 that was all the preliminary work he did ahead of time. Larry Sharpsteen replied that based on the minutes they just 36 approved of the previous meeting, the first time this came up it was just a discussion, not a formal action on an 37 application . Larry stated that they have not assigned any designation to it. Gregg Travis stated that they need to do 38 that , then they can tell Mr. Page what the process is . Rick Page stated that he was curious as to how someone could 39 sell him a piece of land saying he can subdivide it, when there is a chance that it can not happen . Larry Sharpsteen 40 stated that whether a seller needs to disclose the Town ' s subdivision regulations to the buyer, he can not argue that 41 right now. Larry stated that what he recommends to his clients when they are going to buy land, is to check out that 42 town 's zoning and subdivision rules and regulations, before buying so they know what they are getting themselves 43 into . Larry stated that the law does not prevent someone from selling you a piece of property if you want to buy it, 44 what you can do with that property afterwards is strictly regulated . Rick Page stated that he has specific wording in 45 his deed and in the agreement he had with the bank on what he can do with this land , Larry Sharpsteen replied that ani46 they are not saying that he can not do it, what they are trying to do is determine that he can and then make sure that 7 it is done properly. Brad Griffin stated that Rick ' s purchase did not preclude him from going through the process . 48 Brad stated that they have certain standards for an application and he thinks that to be fair to that, there needs to be 49 an application and a SEQR.A sheet . r • h 4 Town of Lansing Planning Board, April 10. 2000 l Brad Griffin added that he does not think it is unreasonable,easonable, asart. ofthe standards, that. they cy take a look at the 2 topography of the property . Brad also added that the question Mr. Davidson brought up about the road is not nit- • 3 picking, it is very much geared to Mr. Pages ' best interests . Rick Page replied that he understands that and they 4 had discussed it in the meeting he had with George, Rich John and Steve Farkas . Mr . Page stated that lie 5 understands that it is important to make sure there is access for emergency vehicles , George Totman replied that in 6 the past, when the Planning Board approved a subdivision, they have left the approving of the road to the Town , 7 Larry Sharpsteen stared that as far as emergency vehicles , the Fire Department. is not under the jurisdiction of the 8 Town Board and they are the ones that make the final decision what roads their people go up and down so that may 9 be someone else thatshould be contacted . George Totman replied that the Town has already contacted them . Larry 10 Sharpsteen asked if they had it in writing. Bud Shattuck stated that it is the minutes of the Town Board meeting_ l I George Totman stated that the Planning Board approves of the subdivisions , but the roads are approved by the 12 Town Board . Larry Sharpsteen agreed that the Town Board approves of the roads but, not to be disrespectful, the 13 Fire Department determines what private roads their equipment goes down . Bud Shattuck stated that is a separate 14 issue . Bud Shattuck stated that along that line, the Town has contacted them and made them aware of the possible 15 elongation of that road and if they have problems or concerns they will contact Mr. Page and deal with that. 16 separately . Bud stated that it does not have anything to do with this subdivision . Bud stated that it is at Mr. Pages ' I ; own risk if he chooses not to keep this road up . Larry Sharpsteen replied that it does have something to do with it 18 to the extent that the Planning Board has to tell him that it is at his own risk, and that is his whole point, 19 Larry Sharpsteen stated that he has a USGS map of the area and lie thinks they could use that to review it. Larry 20 asked Mr_ Page if the Town Engineer has given him any advice as to the size of the ditches and culverts . Rick Page 2 replied that the Town Engineer gave the specs to Roger Sovocool and Rick built the road to those specs . Larry 22 Sharpsteen asked Lin Davidson if he was talking about the ditches and things that would be required to prevent 23 oversized discharge and erosion . Lin Davidson agreed . Rick Page stated that he would do whatever • is required for 24 the road . They discussed the location of the culvert. Rick Page stated that the culvert is oval and he thinks it is 7 25 feet high by 1 I feet wide. Larry Sharpsteen stated that an oval culvert will flow more water than a round, which is 26 probably good . Rick. Page explained that one area is now a peach orchard , Larry Sharpsteen stated that until such 27 time as this is approved, they are going to want to know how the run-off is collected and fed down to the culvert . 28 Rick Page explained that the entire area along the road is a berm that forces the water down to the creek . Larry 29 Sharpsteen replied that it should be indicated somewhere on a plan . Larry added that any redirection of water 30 should be put on the plans . 31 Gregg Travis stated that the title block on the plans should be changed . Gregg Travis read Sec . C on page 4 of the 32 Subdivision Rules and Regulations of the Town of Lansing . Gregg explained that because it is not fronting on a 33 public street it does not quite fit the description of a minor subdivision . Gregg stated that it puts it into a different 34 category and it is up to the discretion of the Planning Board . Rick Page stated that he specifically made this a 3 lot 35 subdivision so that he could avoid the added expenses of a major subdivision . Gregg stated that. the Planning Board 36 has their discretion to leave it as a minor subdivision . George Totman stated that what. the Town Attorney has told 37 him , as long as the Town has accepted it as a private road; it is a road . George Totman stated that he could not 38 give a building permit for lot #3 until the road has been accepted by the Town as a private road , George stated that 39 it is just like Lakeview or any other subdivision . Bud Shattuck stated that that is the way he sees it. 40 Gregg Travis stated that they need to take action and classify the subdivision . The Board discussed the requirement 4 1 for the contours on a topographical map . Brad Griffin stated that it was either 2 ' or 5 ' contours . Larry Sharpsteen 42 asked if everyone would be okay with it if an overlay were done with the USGS 10 ' contours, which would not 43 require Mr . Page to have the land surveyed again . Brad Griffin stated that would be a reasonable attempt to show 44 the topography. Lin Davidson agreed _ Larry Sharpsteen told Mr. Page that if an overlay is not possible without 45 causing him a great deal of expense, the Planning Board would accept. a blow up of the USGS map of the area 46 Brad Griffin read the requirements for a sketch plan on Page 13 of the subdivision regulations . Mr. Page stated 47 that what they were asking for is the topography, general location of tree masses, culvert, and flows of water. Rick 48 asked if it was okay if' he did it in his software. program . Brad Griffin responded that any reasonable depiction 49 would do . Rick stated that he will have the land surveyed , the pins set, the map redrawn and the title block 5U changed . Gregg Travis asked if NYSEG still had an easement, Rick Page explained where the easement is, stating 51 that the land is what they call forever wild, meaning no one can build on it according to an agreement between r 5 Town of Lansing Planning Board, April 10, 2000 1NYSEG and Mr . Sovocool . Dick Page explained that there will be an easement given for the underground lines to ® 2 go across Rick ' s property to the other properties . Dick Page stated that they will be installing the lines, and the will 3 be responsible for them unless -NYSEG wants to take it over, as NYSEG has that option . 4 Lary Sharpsteen moved to accept the sketch plan for a minor subdivision with the modifications that they have 5 noted , items on page 13 of the Subdivision Rules and Regulations and the change in the title block . Gregg Travis 6 3cconded . VOTE : ALL IN FAVOR . MOTiONED CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY . 7 Rick Page asked whom he should consult about the drainage issues . All agreed he should speak with Dave Herrick . 8 Rick Page asked if it is at the next meeting where he would get the approval of the subdivision. Brad Griffin said 9 yes, if all the information they requested is there . The next meeting will be May 8, 2000 . Rick Page stated that he 10 appreciated their time. I Brad Griffin stated that in the best interest of applicants and the Board, they should do what they can to make sure 12 that when an applicant conies in it is tnily with a complete application . Lin Davidson agreed . Brad added that it is 13 the only fair way they can respond to everyone that comes before them and do it in a way that not only meets the 14 letter, butthe intent of the law. Larry Sharpsteen and Gregg Travis agreed . 15 Gregg Travis stated that he is going to review how subdivisions and number of lots are determined . Gregg stated 16 that you can start out with a large lot, split it up into three and that is a minor subdivision . Gregg stated that you 17 can take any one of those three lots and divide that into three, is that a major or not? Lin Davidson stated that they IS have been there with Kippy Buck . Bud Shattuck stated that there are minimum lot sizes that you can institute . 19 George Totrnan stated that he does not understand what the problem is . Brad Griffin stated that it is the same 20 question that was raised before . Lin Davidson stated that he thinks you get the same problem with a major 21 subdivision , if you get to a certain point and you are going to have 1 acre lots, driveways , and going to build 22 houses , a lot of water is going to be coining down . Lin stated that you are going to do a drainage system for a road a3 with 3 houses on nine acres and all of a sudden you take those 3 lots and divide them into 3 one acre lots and you ,4 put in "X " much more roof and "X" much more driveway , prettysoon you have more water going down that ditch . 25 Lin stated that if it had been a major subdivision with 9 houses to begin with, you would have been allowing for it 26 and planning for it. Bud Shattuck stated that he thinks it would take effect each time they subdivide. Lin Davidson 27 asked what they were going to do, go dig the ditches out each tine ? Lin Davidson stated they should do it right the 28 first time , Larry Sharpsteen stated that with the new Non-Point Source Erosion Control Regulations that are going 29 to go into effect in the next couple of months, it will not make a bit of difference whether ifs a major subdivision , 30 minor subdivision , private road, town road, back driveway or farmer ' s field. Larry Sharpsteen stated that if they 31 are doing it now, it is not something they need to learn how to do later . Bud Shattuck stated that Dave Herrick 32 vent to Syracuse for that training . Larry Sharpsteen replied that he had the training with the old one . 33 Lin Davidson asked how they deal with that particular issue . Lin stated that if 20 houses are going to be there in 5 , 34 10 or 20 years, why arc they not planning for it now . Lin stated that it is very punitive on the first person in there 35 but . . . Larry Sharpsteen stated that he agrees with Lin . Larry stated that it is not like they are asking the first 36 person to give the land away and not be paid for the work that he is doing . Larry stated that the days of taking it 37 easy, because it is just someone selling off an acre of land to pay his taxes are gone . Larry said they need to do 3 $ what they did here. Bud Shattuck stated that they have the letter of the law in front of them and if they follow that, 39 then there is not anything else they can do at this point . Larry Sharpsteen stated that what they did tonight was not 40 outside what they are expected to do, they did what was reasonable and prudent for someone in their position . 41 42 DISCUSSION ON LAND USE ORDINANCE 43 The Board agreed to the following changes : 44 Pave V-9. Sec. 504 , Schedule 11 45 Minimum Road Frontage in RA to 100 feet with public sewer or water and 150 feet without public sewer or water. 46 They decided to put a star under Minimum Road Frontage denoting a footnote on the following page. " 1 • 6 Town of Lansing Planning Board, April 10, 2000 Minimum Road Frontage in IR should be 75 feet with public sewer or water and 75 feet without public sewer or 2 water . 3 Page V- 10 - FOOTNOTES FOR. SCHEDULE II 4 Add footnote: When the applicant is faced with limits arising from road configuration or natural features may be 5 reduced, on a case-by-case basis with a decision by the appropriate board , but in no case less than the flag lot 6 requirement of 20 ' . (i , c , cul-de-sac, corner lot, flag lot) 7 Brad Griffin stated that he read through the rest of the Ordinance from where they left off until the point where the 8 appendices begin . Brad stated that the only thing he found wrong was a typo in Sec . 602 . 3 . , which had already 9 been corrected in everyone else ' s copy of the ordinance . 10 The Board agreed to have the proposed changes made to the Land Use Ordinance for the Town Board to review. I I The changes will be clearly defined . The Board agreed to have Brad Griffin take a look at the proposed changes 12 and do a polling of board members by phone in the absence of another meeting. 13 OTHER BUSINESS 14 Larry Sharpsteen stated that there was a note that possibly should not have made it into the minutes of the last 15 meeting . Larry Sharpstcen motioned to delete the sentence on Page 2 , Line 34 . . . Ceerge-added-t-hat . . _ Lin Davidson 16 seconded . VOTE : ALL IN FAVOR . MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY , 17 Brad Griffin stated that for the next meeting the agenda should include Mr . Page ' s subdivision , Bud Shattuck will 18 get the map, with overlays, prepared by Dave Herrick for the next meeting as well. 19 Town Board Liaison - 20 Bud Shattuck shared information on seminars to be held on May 11 , 2000, at TC3 and on May 12, 2000, in 21 Rochester . 22 Bud Shattuck stated that in preparation for Larry and Brad coming into the Town Board sleeting, he called the 23 County Planning Department to see how other towns in the county handle site plan review. Bud stated that the only 24 Town Board ' s in the county that do site plan review is Dryden and Lansing. 25 Larry Sharpsteen asked Brad Griffin if lie sent the letter to the County Planning Department stating that the Town 26 of Lansing does have a Comprehensive Plan . Larry stated that the other day he was nudged to have his written 27 report on the activities of the Town of Lansing for the EMC newsletter. Larry stated thathe pointed out that the 28 Planning Board is currently in the process of reviewing their Comprehensive Plan and the Land Use Ordinance. 29 Brad replied that he would write the letter . 30 Lin Davidson motioned to adjourn at 9 :45 PM . Larry Sharpsteen seconded . VOTE : ALL IN FAVOR. MOTION 31 CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY . 32 Submitted by Robin Cornell . I .