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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1997-05-29 • TOWN OF LANSING Planning Board Tuesday, April 29, 1997 ; 7 : 30pm PLANNING BOARD MEMBERS (* Denotes present) * Larry Sharpsteen, Chair * Jacoba Baker * Viola Miller * Brad Griffin * Lin Davidson Al White * Robert Todd * David Lippert * George Totman, Zoning and Code Enforcement Officer LANSING TOWN BOARD * Jeannine Kirby, Supervisor * Larry Tvaroha * Jeff Cleveland * Herb Beckwith * Paul Butler PUBLIC PRESENT John Homa 48 Teeter Road • Peter Delorme 186 Buck Road The Town of Lansing Planning Board met with the Lansing Town Board for a joint meeting to discuss the Proposed Zoning Ordinance . Larry Sharpsteen opened the meeting at 7 : 34p .m. John Homa appeared before the Planning Board not knowing it was a work session. He was told when he called the Code Enforcement Office that is was an open meeting and wished to be noted in the minutes as attending . Mr. Homa has a problem with prior commitments made by the developers of the subdivision on Teeter Road. He has acceded to meeting with the Code Enforcement Officer and will bring the issue before the Planning Board at the May 12, 1997 meeting . Proposed Zoning Ordinance Larry Sharpsteen asked the Town Board if there were any specific questions they had or would they like to start at page one and go through the Ordinance item by item? Robert Todd wanted to • know what the Town Board ' s general impression was . Robert stated the Planning Board had not heard anything from the Town Board whether they had a problem with the Ordinance or if they • Town of Lansing Planning Board Tuesday, April 29, 1997 Page 2 liked it. Larry Sharpsteen stated he had heard around town that the Planning Board themselves did not like the Ordinance they just. completed. Larry remarked he was going to speak for the rest of the Planning Board in saying they have come to a consensus on each and every individual item. There have been disagreements, but what they have presented to the Town Board they feel they can live with, good for the town as a whole and workable. Robert agreed. Larry Sharpsteen continued by saying they had a lot of varied philosophies on the basic ideas of zoning but they had worked very hard in coming up with something that is workable . Larry Tvaroha felt that when you work on something a piece at a time it seems acceptable, but when you' re done and take a look at the whole thing it seems too big a bite for one time. Larry Sharpsteen asked if it was too big an area? Larry Tvaroha responded too big an area, too many restrictions and too much detail. Viola asked if he was talking about the zoning part or the site plan review section? Herb Beckwith stated he found in many cases it was very confusing. In one instance, it was not permitted and then allowed with special circumstances . Larry Sharpsteen explained it was difficult to answer questions on generality, it was easier to answer questions on detail . Larry Sharpsteen remarked regarding the size of the area, they put together an Ordinance that would go for the whole town. As far as the size of the individual zoned areas, it was according to the feedback, that the Town Board felt R1 should go as far North as Buck Road and across . Larry Tvaroha stated that may have come from the Town Board at one time, • but with public input we may be going back and forth. Larry Sharpsteen stated he and Jeannine sat down for a couple of hours and went through various items trying to deal with restrictions in different areas. Larry felt maybe a workshop with some role playing and putting it into hypothetical use could demonstrate how user friendly it really is . Larry Sharpsteen looked at Jeannine Kirby stating that she was satisfied and didn' t feel it was as complicated as it looked when she got right down and used the tables . Jeannine nodded and agreed. Lin Davidson noted that Herb had problems with inconsistencies and wondered if there was a given area he had checked off that they could take and work through the tables? Herb stated in R1 (Residential-low density) Section 503 , Schedule I, C . Business Uses, 9 . Residential (home) business or occupation, requires SC -Special Conditions Apply 802 . 9 . Herb stated if you then go to 18 . Retail Sales, Not Permitted, he found that very confusing . Larry Sharpsteen stated they had talked about that specifically and the big objection in residential districts with businesses is a lot of traffic, yet several people do have workshops in their homes that do sell at flea markets and the farmer' s market. Larry clarified the difference is the daily flow of traffic, if you have a business with a lot of cars going in and out, then it will probably be objectionable in a residential area. Herb stated he had a problem with that in certain areas of R1 , where he lives on Ross Road • is surrounded by agriculture . • Larry Sharpsteen proceeded in explaining some of the history pertaining to that area and why it is all R1 . Originally there were three zones established in that area, RA(Rural Agricultural) and • Town of Lansing Planning Board Tuesday, April 29, 1997 Page 3 where R1 is, they had two different zones, Lake Highland and Lake Shore zone. After feedback from their consultants and Planning Board members, it was felt there were too many precincts and too cumbersome . By making that all R1 , low density housing would keep uses out that would be excessively damaging to the slopes and bluffs around the lake. Larry Sharpsteen stated they were open for suggestions, they kept it that way only to simplify things . Robert Todd recalled extensive discussions concerning that because there are quite a few businesses in that area. Herb did not want to see it so restrictive that it would limit someone in having a business especially one on a retirement income. Herb also stated he really would like to see zoning make it through the whole town but had concerns about the restrictiveness of it and felt there were a lot of people in this town that wouldn' t buy it. He did not want to see it go down and have to wait 20-30 more years . Herb wanted to see the Ordinance less restrictive at this point to get it through then over the years as people come in and ask to make it more restrictive they can do that. Herb also brought up the issue of no mobile homes in Rl . Herb felt some mobile homes built after 1995 are built as well as stick built homes. Larry Sharpsteen stated the Planning Board had numerous discussions regarding mobile homes . Lin Davidson pointed out that R1 also extends to Grandview Drive and Hillcrest. Lin stated it does have an impact on a neighborhood and zoning can be an economic issue and it is perfectly legal to pursue that if a mobile home were to go in those areas . Larry Sharpsteen asked George if mobile homes were allowed in R1 in the • South end that was already zoned. George responded they were not allowed. Larry Sharpsteen stated that was another reason they could not make it any less restrictive than it already is . Larry Sharpsteen remarked they could go back to the original plan with another precinct but to bear in mind that R1 allows business but not retail traffic. Lin stated there was also the issue of parking, not just the in and out traffic . Robert Todd asked Herb when referring to the proposed zoning map, where would he cut off R1 ? Herb responded he felt he would draw the line at Pinney ' s subdivision, since it ' s all agriculture until Lansing Station Road. Viola stated this goes back to their original plan. Larry Sharpsteen responded that they tried to simplify things by having fewer precincts but if that is what it takes, they will do it. Lin Davidson asked if they should specify mobile homes newer than 1995 ? Herb stated he wouldn' t have a problem with that, he felt a new zone was needed. Viola stated the reason for the restrictions was to protect the Lake front. Larry Sharpsteen stated they had the line 3 ,000 feet from the railroad tracks to get it up and past the bluffs . Robert Todd asked how far the RA would be pushed down? Larry Sharpsteen felt a joint field trip should be taken because Lansing Station Road is quite steep . Viola wanted to make sure it was pointed out that the reasons for the restrictions was because of the bluffs and slopes along the lake . Everything could be RA and then make a Lake front precinct. Robert asked how far was R1 from the lake and stated 3 ,000 feet was a pretty good distance from the lake. Viola stated they could consider changing the distance from the lake, putting it all RA and having a lake front precinct. Larry Sharpsteen felt by going back to what they originally had with the lake front precinct and restricting certain activities like commercial • and parking lots, they could come up with something. • Town of Lansing Planning Board Tuesday, April 29, 1997 Page 4 Viola stated one reason she remembered they were doing this is because water was going out 34B , does that make a difference with a new precinct? Herb stated the water district is only 300 feet going out through there unless another district is formed. Brad Griffin asked if they wouldn' t anticipate further demand in tapping of that line on 34B ? Herb felt you would see Lansing Station Road form a district. Larry Sharpsteen stated they were forgetting Viola' s point. The Planning Board had already been approached by someone at the top of Algerine Road asking for a 60-acre subdivision. He was not allowed because he did not have water, what happens now if someone were to come to the Board and it' s in a RA with only subdivision rules and regulations to control that. Viola asked if the main concern with that area being in R1 was the fact that mobile homes were not allowed? Herb felt that was only one reason, retail was another. Viola hoped they would be able to stop proliferation of businesses stretched out all over the town. Larry Sharpsteen stated they were trying to keep all the commercial together and centralized instead of cheesy commercial development on both sides of the road which shuts off the back lands. Site plan review triggered by commercial development in the RA you would have some control and protection. Larry Sharpsteen wanted to make sure they were all in agreement in making some adjustment on • the lake bluffs . More restrictions lower down and easing it up further up . Larry also asked if 1 ,000 feet was reasonable? He suggested measuring it, by either chaining it or using a wheel, he could consult Dave Herrick. Both the Town Board and Planning Board agreed. Larry Sharpsteen stated they also needed to look at the other side of town, from Buck Road and VanOstrand Road down to Peruville Road to the town line. That was all RA before and now it is also R1 . Herb felt they should create an R3 because there are areas out there where mobile homes could be set up. Larry Sharpsteen wanted to make clear that R3 would have every restriction that a low density would have except allowing mobile homes built after 1995 . Larry Sharpsteen could conceivably have a problem with making that R3 along Peruville Road because they could potentially see that become commercial. That would be an area that might be appropriate for motels, this would not be set in stone and could be changed at a later date . Viola stated there were Town' s around us that have had to change an area because of something that was being developed or coming in. Larry Sharpsteen stated they have specifically left in the administrative clauses concerning strict rules that can be changed and strict rules that cannot be used to exclude development or uses. They had the choice of writing it in or not, even though it was a state rule, but sometimes when it' s not written down it doesn't exist. • Viola asked the Town Board if that is how they all felt. She wanted to make sure they all had discussed these issues and agreed with the changes. Jeannine stated yes and they all appreciated all the hard work they have put into it. It was not a bad plan, it ' s just that they have all lived • Town of Lansing Planning Board Tuesday, April 29, 1997 Page 5 through failures of zoning and they do not want to see it again. She felt they needed to expand on the existing zoning and work toward what they have established in this plan. That was the general opinion when they reviewed it together. Jeff Cleveland asked Larry Sharpsteen if he understood correctly that in an area of RA, if a group of homeowners came in and wanted to make it more restrictive, were they trying to avoid that? Lin Davidson responded that question was brought up with spot zoning. Larry Tvaroha asked for spot zoning to be defined. Larry Sharpsteen stated they were told they could not have little commercial islands because that was spot zoning . Larry Tvaroha wondered what size would be considered spot zoning? He added if the people on Conlon and Buck Road who are asking for restrictions came to the Board requesting for changes, how many miles or what size of an area would be accepted? Larry Sharpsteen stated it was possible for a neighborhood to petition the Town Board for changes in their area. It was a question to having little islands of four or five houses that can' t happen. Larry Tvaroha wanted to see something in writing instead of everyone making up their own definitions . George Totman did not think there was a definite square footage or definition of spot zoning written, but he would look into it and see if he could find something. Viola Miller stated Lansing was partially zoned now and to decide to go up to the North Lansing and zone a section there would be considered spot zoning. If the whole town is already zoned and a few homes want to change it, she didn' t feel there was any reason it couldn't • be done. Jeff Cleveland felt it should be researched. Robert Todd thought the Town Board deserved to see something on paper as to what spot zoning was, everyone here seems to have their own version. Brad Griffin replied he had been concerned with spot zoning not only because it was an issue of fairness, a lot of towns have been sued over it, but the courts hold the town' s feet to the fire to assure the zoned areas are homogeneous in character. The assignment of those areas should be consistent with the provision of the comprehensive plan. Brad gave an example if he and Jeannie wanted to throw property together to create a new zone that would certainly be considered spot zoning. Jeff Cleveland stated they should get some legal opinions . Lin Davidson wanted to know if that should be brought up to Scott Chatfield? Both the Planning Board and the Town Board agreed. Jeff Cleveland stated again, in an effort to get zoning through the whole town, it should be less restrictive and then if the neighborhoods would like to come in, they can. The feedback he is hearing has not been positive, he is very apprehensive that it would pass by keeping areas such as Buck Road and Peruville Road as R1 . He was not blaming the Planning Board, he knew the Town Board had input as to changing that to R1 , but felt if it is kept as Rl the Ordinance may not pass. Jeannine agreed, and felt they needed to keep it as simple as possible. Larry Tvaroha stated it wouldn't be locked in stone, it would just be something to present at a public meeting and if the people want more restrictions, then it can be changed back to R1 . It was easier to put it out as less restrictive and if the people want it more, it' s a lot easier to change it. If you get the people that don' t want it, they won' t want it forever if it' s too restrictive . • Larry Sharpsteen asked for some structure in presenting the Ordinance . He suggested having one • Town of Lansing Planning Board Tuesday, April 29, 1997 Page 6 public informational meeting, four neighborhood meetings, another public informational meeting and then action on a public hearing . Viola felt it should be done very quickly. She also felt the neighborhood meetings should be done simultaneously, if not you end up with something you can' t handle . Larry Tvaroha stated he liked the idea of the neighborhood meetings, otherwise you end up with the same three people coming to every meeting, talking about the same parcel of land. Larry Sharpsteen suggested have two meetings going on at the same time, one in North Lansing and Ludlowville, and the next night Lansingville and South Lansing . Larry asked if the Planning Board felt they could get together between now and May 12th with the changes? No one objected. Site Plan Review Larry Tvaroha thought they should have a general discussion on Site Plan Review(SPR) . Jeff Cleveland' s broad concern was that it was used in too many areas . Jeannine stated she did not want to see Lansing like the Town or City of Ithaca. Jeff Cleveland gave an example of a church in Schedule I, B . 2 . , couldn' t something be on paper or put in writing in an effort to avoid coming before the Planning Board? Lin Davidson explained the reason would be traffic, rearranging the parking area or driveway to make if safe for all parties involved. Jeff wondered • if it could be worded for traffic issues only? Larry Sharpsteen read from 701 . 5 , Storm water drainage, erosion control, off-street parking, water and sewer facilities and site lighting . Larry also read 701 . 1 . The purpose and intent of site plan review is to provide for Planning Board review and approval of site plans for certain uses. For example, would storm water run off be channeled properly or run onto the neighbor' s yard? Some of these things are not looked at, that' s why there ' s site plan review. Jeff Cleveland asked if these things could be in writing for George to hand out to people to avoid public hearings and meetings? Herb agreed and stated it would help eliminate public hearings that can be expensive for advertising. Jeff clarified he realized that some will need a public hearing, but for a majority of the situations could just have a piece of paper specifying what needed to be done . Robert Todd stated they could spend hours talking about details and then when they finally do iron out the specifics, someone will find fault with it. It certainly sounds simple to put it on paper, but the Planning Board spent hours going over these things . Larry Sharpsteen agreed with Robert and stated they found so many pages of individual circumstances they were writing down for each use that they felt site plan review was the best option. Robert added it was site plan review or the Ordinance would end up three times as big as it is . Larry Sharpsteen suggested they could perhaps have some site plan review that didn' t trigger public hearings. Jeannine and Herb stated they were asking just for some basic guidelines . Viola recalled reading somewhere that if it affects a neighborhood then a public hearing should be held. The normal issues of lighting and parking • would not need a public hearing. George stated what has happened in the Town and City of Ithaca to stop a lot of projects is the SEQR process. He further explained that with site plan • Town of Lansing Planning Board Tuesday, April 29, 1997 Page 7 review comes the SEQR process with a public hearing. If you had what Jeff is asking for, a list of what was required or allowed you could avoid SEQR. Lin Davidson stated the SEQR process is being misused. Larry Sharpsteen remarked that the way the Planning Board views SPR and the way Scott Chatfield described it with the controls that are on is a way to solve problems . It allows the flexibility for the targets of the comprehensive plan, maybe it is not needed for things like churches . Larry Sharpsteen felt there were certain things that do need SPR, one is anything that goes on in the business or commercial districts . Another is any commercial development in the Rural Agricultural areas . Paul Butler stated one of the problems he found with zoning is the Dutch Mill development. The berm that was required cost the owner a lot to development and didn' t accomplish a thing. Larry Sharpsteen stated it was diluted so much because there was so much objection over it. The Town wasn' t given the authority or an Ordinance at any time to go there and see if they lived up to the letter of the intent of that berm. The berm got put there but none of the plantings that were suppose to go on it ever went there, that' s why it doesn't work as a screen. If the town makes a commitment to do something this time, the Ordinance will give them the muscle to get it done. Brad Griffin stated the objective clearly is more important to communicate than the specifics . In Jeff s point, it may be possible to do away with some of the SPR if some standards are set. Brad • felt there were two arguments to counter George ' s view, one would be less flexibility. On given sites there would be fewer options given to accomplish the same objectives and the other would be to have somebody of analysis to make sure those standards are met. Larry Tvaroha remarked that personally he just did not agree with SPR at all but felt they were doing this for the people and want to provide the people with what they want. If listening to the input from the informational meeting they will hold and the people want it, that' s what should be done . Larry Tvaroha thinks it has too much potential for misuse, favoritism and the cookie cutter approach. If you have one or two people who dominate a board, everything comes out looking the same without any original thought. Larry also stated he would keep an open mind about this. Larry Sharpsteen asked that they go through and point out specific ones that shouldn' t have or don' t need SPR. Robert Todd suggested taking one district at a time. Start out the Commercial- Mixed Use (B 1 ) which is green on the proposed map which is either not permitted or SPR is required . Robert wanted to know how the Town Board felt about that. Larry Sharpsteen stated it allowed more uses such as a complete mix of residential, commercial and business in an area that would allow private developers plans to fit in with the long range plans of the Town. Viola felt it was absolutely necessary to do it there if it didn't get done anywhere else. Larry Sharpsteen went on to the next area which was Commercial-General Business (B2) . There are a lot of uses that are just flat permitted, then such things like apartment buildings and Townhouses would be all right to have them there, but felt that there should be some sort of • review. • Town of Lansing Planning Board Tuesday, April 29, 1997 Page 8 Jeannine Kirby stated when she and Larry Sharpsteen sat and went over the Ordinance, they talked about having a chart for each area. Jeannie felt if someone stated they lived in R1 and asked what their limitations were, you could just hand them that section and not go through the whole nine yards of the Ordinance . Larry Sharpsteen didn' t feel that was a problem since the Ordinance was on a word processor. Jeannine felt it would be less confusing . Robert agreed. It was the consensus of the Planning Board to separate each district. Jeannie thought it would be a good idea to do it before the neighborhood meetings . It was agreed that it would be less confusing and easier to explain to the neighborhoods, only what pertained to them. Peter Delorme objected to having two meetings on the same night because he lived on the border of two districts . It was explained to Mr. Delorme that the meetings would not be held by districts but divided by neighborhoods, which may have two or more districts within them. Viola suggested they look over how they would divide the neighborhoods very carefully. Jeff Cleveland wondered why a Bed. and Breakfast would be permitted in moderate density but needs a SPR in low density? Larry Sharpsteen explained that low density is the most restricted zone and would have residential areas such as Autumn Ridge and Lakewatch. It would be on the same lines as retail sales, would it be suitable to have a lot of strangers in and out of a residential neighborhood of a low density area? Larry Sharpsteen stands open to changing that if need be. • Viola stated they had no idea of a Bed and Breakfast and some of them had almost become the size of hotels. George stated they were governed by the State, only four people were allowed and could only serve breakfast. Larry Sharpsteen asked what was the Rose Inn? George stated the Rose Inn is not a Bed and Breakfast, it was an Inn and they follow different rules and are inspected differently. Jeff Cleveland suggested waiting for the peoples ' feedback before changing any definitions at this point. Jeannine felt in the Southern end, they may want to see it more restrictive than it is right now. Larry Sharpsteen stated the whole point of a zoning ordinance is to uphold the comprehensive plan of the community. If an item is forbidden, but the Planning Board and Town Board feel it' s good for the community, then that should also be considered. Viola stated a variance could always be applied for. Robert Todd stated the Town Board has to be the ones to finally vote on it. Robert wanted to hear what the Town Board has to say and to accommodate them, it' s not the Planning Board that' s accountable . Larry Tvaroha stated they want to hear what the people say . Robert stated there are people who are totally against regulation and those who want to zone it up tight. He felt the Town Board would have to ultimately make the decision. Lin Davidson seconded that. Jeannine felt the plan should be the least harsh to begin with, then if a neighborhood wishes to petition for something stronger they can do so . Viola stated SPR could be pulled out but that • would mean rewriting the Ordinance. Larry Sharpsteen felt there were probably places it could be pulled out, but if the Town Board is satisfied with the idea of getting public reaction on SPR, • Town of Lansing Planning Board Tuesday, April 29, 1997 Page 9 then he was satisfied. Viola asked if there would be a big informational meeting first? Herb asked if there would be an opportunity to put something together for people to look at before a public meeting? Larry Sharpsteen stated the newspaper has agreed to publish the draft when it' s ready. He stated they would have to have copies available of the whole ordinance at a cost. Herb suggested every page should have draft printed or stamped on it. George stated after the Ordinance is passed, then separate districts would be available in the Code Enforcement Office. Larry Sharpsteen stated he felt that if the only changes would be R1 along Peruville Road and along the lake up 34B that could be done fairly rapidly. The changes can be drafted here by the Planning Board and given to Tom by May 12th. Robert Todd questioned what was decided to do with SPR. Larry Sharpsteen responded they were going to leave it as is for now until they got public input. Larry Sharpsteen asked the Town Board to play around with some wording that could be added to the administrative portion that would restrict the use of SPR from being a weapon. Jeff Cleveland suggested getting advise from the Town Attorney . Lin Davidson felt Scott Chatfield • would be better qualified to answer that. Larry Sharpsteen asked Lin to contact Scott to see if something could be written to curb abuse. Larry Sharpsteen asked the Town Board other than the SPR, was there anything else in RA that was too restrictive? The Town Board felt there wasn't anything else. Herb Beckwith questioned the section on Private Roads . George stated that was changed and made additional copies of the amendments to the Proposed Zoning Ordinance and distributed them. Larry Sharpsteen asked if there were any concerns with the Industrial/Research area? There was discussion on the land surrounding Milliken Station and NYSEG. Viola stated one reason IR was on both sides of the road near and around Milliken was because they did not want IR on one side and residential on the other. Viola also added she didn' t think they wanted to leave the center of a road the dividing line between districts . If the people want residential on one side then it would be 300 feet from the road and a new road would go in for development anyway. Larry Sharpsteen suggested asking people that have worked with the Planning Board in the past to help bring out the people in the neighborhoods that are in favor of zoning. Viola thought those involved in the 2010 project could step in and help . Larry Sharpsteen had approached Linda Hirvonen to help bring out those people in her area that were for zoning . He felt the community needed to get out and hear the facts at these meetings instead of the rumors circulating at the • coffee shops . Peter Delorme objected to the Board' s moving R1 to the South of Buck Road. His concerns were allowing the go-cart track to go in if the district was changed. Mr . Delorme asked how he would go about keeping R1 , 300 feet above Buck Road. Jeannine remarked that is what • Town of Lansing Planning Board Tuesday, April 29, 1997 Page 10 the public meetings are for. Larry Sharpsteen told him when the Ordinance is in place, the neighborhood will have the opportunity to petition the Town for a change . Jeannine suggested putting something in Matthew Shulman' s newspaper that anyone with concerns can address them at the public informational meeting The next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, May 6, 1997 at 7 : 00pm to make changes to the Proposed Zoning Ordinance as discussed in this meeting . The changes will then be voted on at the Planning Board' s regular meeting to be held Monday, May 12, 1997 at 7 : 30pm. The draft copy will then be presented to the Town Board. Larry Sharpsteen thanked the Town Board and stated the Planning Board will get the changes to them as soon as they could. Lin Davidson made a motion to adjourn this meeting . David Lippert seconded. VOTE; ALL IN FAVOR; MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY This meeting was adjourned at 9 : 41 p.m. Submitted by Sue Davenport • •