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Home My WebLink About1981-03-26 • TOWN OF L h .j_ NG PLANNING BOARD S S Date : March 26 , 1981 Time : • 7 : 30 P . M . ® Present : Chairman V . miner , R . Briggs , J . Cleveland , D . Hardie , L . iiirvonen , T . Kick , H . Ley , L . Montague Guest : T . iederkorn , Planning Consultant I . T . Niederkorn - Development Policy Review V . Miller - At present we have low , , Medium , high and rural agriculture districts . I ' d like to point out that practically everything that isn ' t already zoned is , except for the lakeshore and some area that is north and to the east , already in an agriculture district . That might make some difference in our thinking . It has been suggested that we might want a :Lakeshore and also a conservation district to be formed . ;Mould you like to . add to this ? H . Ley - Do you think we need a lakeshore district ? T . Niederkorn - Think about density . How dense is it now ? R . Briggs - New construction might affect the area . V . - Miller - The Health Department , it is felt by the Town Board , has not answered to the problems on the lakeshore . Should we let it wide open for change , someone could come- in and tear down ten or fifteen cottages and put up a high rise on the lake which no one wants or that type of thing . " Zoning As A Means And Not An End , " • by James A . Coon and Sheldon W . Damsky is one of the best things that I have ever read on zoning and I would hope that we might get . copies for everyone on the Board to read carefully so that we would be better able to answer questions from the people . Also , a copy for each member of the Town board . They say that the whole idea 41, of zoning is that the municipality should have a rational means to a address unique development problems . That is what we are essen- tially trying to do . D . Hardie - We talked about the lakeshore being just one lot deep , but that is not quite SD . When you go to the lakeshore from 34 -B , , you might want to maintain a different character and try to main- tain something different there then rural agriculture . Cemetaries - what ' s wrong with the land down Lansing Station Road ? Joan ( Hardie ) seemed to think it would be a shame to use that beautiful area for such a thing . Maybe we should consider following 34 -g all the way down , same slope , Finkledeys ' subdivision , we probably should consider not just one lot deep , on the lake call it Some - thing different . V . Miller - Well expressed . Does anyone else have something to add to that , what we might call the lakeshore and snow far to bring it? T . Niederkorn - To what extent can we nibble into the unzoned area and get away with it ? We decided to try to zone the whole town and I ' m wondering if we had the areas now unzoned as more or less unclassified . D . hardie - I. personalay think that we :_nou. ld Lry something different with that strip . T . hiederkorn - It might be a prudent thing to extend that strip west . of 34 -D and then down to the lake 500 ' to 1 , 000 ' from the highway . Give similar treatment to both sides of the highway . S . Cleveland - I ' d like to raise one question with regard to absentee ownership . What would be the ramifications when dealing with a lot 111 of non - town residents ? T . Niederkorn - The closer you get to the lakeshore , it would be - the case , the rest would be local people . Let ' s assme a strip parallel to the lakeshore and 34 -B exists as a district . Ide , must identify it so that the people can tell if they are in or out . Call it the lakeshore district . - 1 - • T . Niederkorn - Development Policy Review - continued . D . Hardie - The restrictions in there might not be a lot different . Just designate it . There is something a little different there. T . Niederkorn - You can do that with the language . R . Briggs - Is the lakeshore high density then? T . Niederkorn - I don ' t know . It ' s pretty dense already . R . Briggs - At $ 200 . 00 a foot , the cost is high . S . Cleveland - I ' d raise another question . In terms of this as being o ne of the most environmentally fragile areas in the town , in terms of future development , the whole question of sewage and o ther problems , does the Health Department have special things applied ? The DEC gets involved . T . Niederkorn - Yes , the Health Department does . The DEC is involved only if it is a large enough subdivision , five or more lots . ✓ . . Miller - Isn ' t that being treated differently from the Health . Department point of view ? L . 'Hirvonen - They didn ' t seem too concerned about the situation. at Lake Ridge . V . Miller - Perhaps it is up to us to go back and write up our own . system . T . Niederkorn - You are safe if you say that the minimum lot size should be one acre. . S . Cleveland - How is the area on the west side of the lake , the Towns of ' Ulysses and Ithaca , zoned for lake frontage ? T . Niederkorn - I ' m not sure . I know that those lots are about 50 ' wide and run 400 ' deep . S . Cleveland - I know that last year between Taughannock and Sheldrake there were about eight units constructed , a mixture of seasonal and year-round residences . 41) T . Niederkorn - I know it ' s possible to have a 50 ' wide lot in the Town of Ithaca , 20 , 000 sq . ft . possibly . That doesn ' t help much . You need width for a septic system . S . ' Cleveland - I think the other aspect is the uniqueness of the shore, ' line in Lansing , large blocks of it remain undeveloped . Wise planning for the future would be to consider how that area will be ' developed . R . Briggs - The railroad will stymie a lot of growth in that .area . S . Cleveland - Yes , that ' s true . Back farther from the railroad , we have one home on the bluff , on the edge of it in Finkledey ' s . We. still have some additional land to develop , south of Portland Point . T . Niederkorn - It ' s conceivable I suppose that you might have two districts, one from the top of the hill east and the other one from the top of the hill west . Probably different in character , down by the lake all packed in , above lighter . V . Miller - Something to consider about this home being so close to - the edge of the bluff - it ' s safety * T . Niederkorn - Let ' s call the conservation district , which we don ' t have at the present , " K " ( as suggested by D . Hardie ) . Next one would be rural agriculture , let ' s assume that that is the area not now zoned . Let ' s assume that we have two areas of intensive . ` residential development - one of which will be a single family h ousing , the other will be called multiple family , a variety of h ousing types . Commercial is very limited , basically it is a neighborhood , convenience type of thing , not large . Industry . . 110 Research would range from Morse Chain to some small things out on. , 34 . Lakeshore , as we discussed . Conservation District would be a strip of land adjacent to Salmon Creek from Ludlowville north. however wide that would be we don ' t know now . I also have another one along the Gulf Creek . With those as general outlined' of Where the districts are and a general description of what the districts are I think we should go through this list of general - 2 - • T . ' Niederkorn - Development Policy.. Review - continued . permitted uses and see where everyone feels they should be. per- , muted . Get a consensus . V . Miller - Back in 1971 this was the Conservation District ,. ( She passed along a map to T . Niederkorn ) . It is essentially the same as the one in our book . T . Niederkorn - If you feel that the words that are used in various planning activities are too wordy or we need a better definitioa of them , a more precise • explanation necessary , I ' ll make a note of that . . If they are too broad and they should be subdivided I can do that. . I can add or eliminate, as there is room for changes.. There are four types of choices that we have to make ; either per, mitt.ed as an out -right use , the zoning officer gives them a permit . If there are certain conditions that you feel should apply , yes , it ie alright as long as - you set back from the right -Of -way 50 ' or: whatever the conditions require that have to be written down some - where , the building inspector. determines whether the conditions have been- met . Something unique you feel may or may not be com- patiable with the area , a special permit is required and that . re- quires more elaborate presentation to someone to decide and then a public hearing is set . Again there are . a number of special- condi- tions that apply for a special permit but there are also general conditions for the reviewing board to accept or reject . Gives you the most control . Leaving it blank means not allowed in that. area . V . Miller - One more tiling we talked about , something to think about. , We started out with " open area " instead of agriculture . Undevel - oped area . R . Briggs - To stay " open " nothing is permitted ? V . Miller - You treat it as a zone , it ' s open , whatever you choose., R . Briggs . - Is there a set of rules to live by in an ag district ? D . Hardie - It ' s more of a protection , terms of taxation. for the people in the district . If NYSI:& G , let ' s suppose , decides to put in a substation , it has to be treated differently . The. farm - - land is to be protected , preserved . T . Niederkorn - We can change names and call . them whatever you want . R . Briggs - Let ' s try to be more practical . There are more people against zoning then you realize . I feel we should have zoning . I put anything goes in the ag district because that was where the opposition was and let ' s keep them happy . V , Miller. - " Open area " allows that . • S . Cleveland - Is the concern of the reactivation. of zoning plans coming from the Town Board ? R . Briggs - Yes . S . Cleveland - Let ' s move forward . If the Town Board rejects it, . • that ' s it . D . Hardie - We have to be loose with it somewhere . R . Briggs - Let ' s not be ridiculous , let ' s be moderate . S . ' Cleveland - I ' m aware of the anti - zoning forces in this state. . V . Miller- - I hope that we. can put this together tonight . , that.. we: can Come up with an idea of what we are planning to do with zoning , that we . can come up with a letter of what our plans are:, what our concept is , then go to the Town Board , possibly at - a special . :- meeting and ask them if they are for it. or against : it . III S . Cleveland - Let them resolve the Franklin. Drive problem . T . Niederkorn - ( 601 . 1 ) Open area as we call it . is pretty much a " hands off " thing . It sets up a legal framework within . which the Town Board could addrestrictions later on . . Permit • eyery - thing in the ordinance , no restrictions whatsoever , and you ' ll still have opposition . . Do you still want crop farming • in low single family areas ? - 3 • - T . Niederkorn - Development Policy Review - continued . S . Cleveland - I raise the question in terms of permitted uses . of crops requiring pesticides , , aerial crop dusting in low or medium 110 areas . I think we have got to define the nature of crop farming in that area . Then , possibly a special permit . T . Niederkorn - Pesticides , herbicides , fertilizer , not allowed ? S . Cleveland - Depends on the nature of it , . • T . Niederkorn - Someone will have to enforce this , who ? H . Ley - Norm Stanton. . T . Niederkorn - It will have to be described so that he can decide what to do . R . Briggs - You certainly can eliminate the overuse of crop dusting , raw fertilizer . B . Hardie - We don ' t have very much use of crop dusting , -only - used in an emergency situation when the crop is growing and something unusual . comes in , has to be stopped . For Norm to have to make this decision , it would be very difficult . The size of machinery makes it not a little business anymore and yet there is quite a lot of land there. . V . Miller - Where is the low density area? And where will the open areas be ? Quite a problem . T . Niederkorn - Let ' s keep in mind that if some of these areas have crop farming there now , it will continue most likely . L . Hirvonen. - This does not change with change of ownership . R . Briggs - Maybe we need a better definition on crop farming . Truck- farming , would that be allowed ? D . Hardie - That ' s . picked up in commercial gardening . Briggs - ( 6.01 . 2 ) Do you want structures permitted in the conser- vation area? T . Kick - Yes , I think so . YOU need special conditions for conservation. area . L . Hirvonen - Set backs includes creeks and streams - T . Niederkorn - Yes , there would be that too . We don ' t want special conditions on everything here . H . Ley, - Can you define the conservation area? T . Niederkorn - I see it as an area environmentally sensitive , possibly . Salmon Creek Valley right now , however wide you define it . H . Ley - Looking at the map , the conservation area is really the water- shed . T . Niederkorn - Yes , actually it is at the bottom . of the slopes . . If that ' area had a heavy waterfall , it might flood . H.. Ley, - I know what comes off the hill . T . Niederkorn - They were hoping to prevent a lot of unnecessary devel- opment close to the creek . D . Hardie - ( 601 . 3 ) I excluded dairy farming from any place except rural or conservation . T . Niederkorn - However , if you have the lakeshore district wide it. might go in there . H . Ley - How wide will it be ? To Ludlowville Road ? Not to go to 34 -B, I think . . Anything east from there is farming anyway . L . Montague - It ' s downhill from there , Ludlowville Road . T . Niederkorn - Let ' s assume that it will be a substantial distance from 34 -B , 4000 ' or SO , is it still dairy farm land west of there? D . Hardie - No . 0 D . Hardie - ( 601 , 4 ) Same deal as dairy farming . L . Hirvonen - I don ' t know what scale we are talking about . - Neighbors near me are raising chickens . Should the scale be defined ? S . Cleveland - 10 , 000 layers make it a poultry farm . L . Hirvonen - - What if someone took offense of the chickens and the roosters that wake me at 5 : 00 in the morning? R . Briggs - Let ' s put a number on them . - 4 - Ta. Niederkorn - Development Policy Review - continued . • T . . Niederkorn - Is there some kind of a name we could put on that ? Raising a small amount of animals ? D . Hardie - Can ' t write it in , I think the Town Board has to sometimes look the other way . T . Niederkorn - Special permit might do it , limit the number . You are talking about a lot of open space in this area , open to development . V . Miller - We may have to go back to open area within a certain. dis tance , a motorcycle at 5 : 00 in the morning is worse to me than a roos- ter crowing . Maybe we have to go further to noise abatement in certain areas , to control it . L . Hirvonen - These people have sheep , a turkey , geese , a horse , a mini farm . T . Niederkorn - What ' s the size of their lot ? S . Cleveland - They have about fifteen acres or so , a pond , lots of woods . T . Niederkorn - We could call it some different - domestic farm? ✓ . Miller - What we are saying is that that was the wrong place for • them to build . D . Hardie - They thought it was " a great spot . There is quite a trend to homesteading . H . Ley - Is it classified as a farm? S . Cleveland - $ 10 , 000 . gross sales - no - small scale . Add the word " commercial " to poultry farming . L . Hirvonen - May I ask why you say commercial raising of livestock , except hogs ? Why no hogs ? T . Niederkorn - Well , simply put , hogs are notorious for their smells . S . Cleveland - Not any worse then poultry farming . I would say that commercial poultry and hog farming be put in the same category. 410 T . Niederkorn - Are there any commercial poultry farmers in Lansing? L . Montague - Yes , Tom Todd . ✓ . Miller - Commercial raising of livestock , where allowed ? Hundreds of acres of open land now in those zones . T . Niederkorn - Maybe we should reduce the size of the zones . L . Hirvonen - Does this mean that hogs are not allowed to be raised in. the Town of Lansing . R . Briggs - Not in agriculture ? S . Cleveland - You have to allow it . L . Hirvonen - Where can you raise hogs ? V . Hiller - Put it under livestock with beef cattle and horses . D . Hardie - Take out the hogs . • T . Niederkorn, - (601 . 7 ) Typical ideas would be a minimum of threeacres . Of land , cannot be housed 200 ' from lot line , manure cannot be . located 200 ' from lot line . R . Briggs - There are people who want a horse in medium density . Should be permitted if they have ten acres of land . - S . Cleveland - With special conditions . T . Niederkorn - Special permit is necessary allowing everyone to present their views . T . Niederkorn - ( 601 . 8 ) Let ' s correct that to read , " household pets " and eliminate the word , " animals . " H . Ley - Kennel could be bad , the noise , the smells . . . . D . Hardie - Why did people move there ? They don ' t want to have kennels in residential areas , such as Franklin Drive . III L . Hirvonen - ( 601 . 9 ) I think that it should be near the people , veter- inary hospitals . S . Cleveland - If it is defined that there will be no open boarding facilities . ✓ . Miller - It should not be allowed in any residential area . ✓ . Miller - ( 601 . 10 ) There should be special conditions to make sure the - 5 - . T . Niederkorn. - Development Policy Review - continued . stands and signs that are put up for the summer are taken down at the end of the season . 410 L . Hirvonen - Norm ( Stanton ) said that this is difficult to enforce . T . Niederkorn - There should be ample space for cars to pull off and park there . R . Briggs - Where are permanent stands and signs allowed ? V . Miller - That would be under commercial . S . Cleveland - What about if someone comes in with a truck andsells off it ? T . Niederkorn - Temporary probably . T . Niederkorn - ( 601 . 13 ) Townhouses are commonly described as being a multi -family dwelling of three units or more , side by side with a common wall . Se Cleveland - ( 601 . 14 ) I don ' t think apartments or multi dwelling units should be allowed in rural agriculture . It is in conflict with farming interest , difficult to maintain the integrity of the open land area . V . Miller - They don ' t belong in there . I don ' t want to compromise on that . R . Briggs - Why not in commercial? T . > Niederkorn - The commercial district will be small . If you had a large commercial distl_ ict , it would be a good spot . R . Briggs - ( 601 . 15 ) What about the mobile home thatis used as an office ? I mean more then temporary , a field office . S . Cleveland - For a used car dealer . T . Niederkorn - No problem , not a dwelling . Lakeshore area for mobile homes ? V . Miller - No . They can be moved in and out too easily . L . Hirvonen - We must look closely at that one . People think it ' s a • great way to go . R . Briggs - . The shape fits so - well . V . Miller - ( 601 . 16) Can we take modular right out and leave it with dwelling ? T . Niederkorn - That ' s what brought about the fight on Franklin Drive. R . Briggs - We need a better definition of modular . There will be more coming . D . Hardie - What about Cima ' s . With sewer and water coming , people might say there is no reason for such a large lawn , maybe put a modular home inbetween lots . H . Ley - Are there any deed restrictions there ? • T . Kick - Alex Cima wouldn ' t go along with it . D . Hardie - . If everybody got together and decided to change it . . . . V . Miller - The National Homes that were brought in there at first , - they almost look like a modular home . T . Kick - A precut home is not a modular home . V . Miller - I know that . Some modern homes are pretty hard to dis- • tinguish between . Are we doing this because our thinking is colored or are we thinking it through? V . Miller — ( 601 . 17 ) Do we want that much density in conservation? We wanted large lots . D . Hardie - Cluster housing means that they would be bunched together with a lot of open area . H . Ley ( 601 . 18 ) How many people now rent out commercially on the lakeshore ? L . Hirvonen - But this implies that there would be more then one unrelated person living there . R . Briggs - A rooming house would mean that you rent one bedroom and share a common bathroom . L . Hirvonen - I ' d hate to see someone rent out by the lake and have people in and out all of the time . - 6 - lyi . I" T . Niederkorn - Development Policy .Review - continued . • V . Miller - ( 601 . 19 ) I think this should be special permits all . the frill way through so that they can ' t just be stuck in , have to be reviewed . Definitely not allowed in the conservation area . . It ' s such a small area . S . Cleveland - You need goodp'larniing for mobile home parks . {f , - i . T . Niederkorn - Special conditions would be better . . S . Cleveland - -( 601 . 25 ) I.--- feel we should have special permits put in . so that we can monitor the type of activities that they plan . V . Miller - .(' 601 . 27 ) . I ' d like to know what " social " means , What aboutthis off -track betting thing ? Would - that be allowed in? Anything , we once said , was commercial would need a special permit, Let ' s cut out the word " public " and leave it private . Let ' s not . 47 spread these things out . We do not have very adequate police pro -- tectioe in this county and if you leave it public they would have to be better protected then if it were social . T . Niederkorn - ( 601 . 30 ) Let ' s scratch out " hospital " " and other such buildings , or institutions . " . - T . ' Niederkorn - ( 601 . 30 -A ) Let ' s add a new one and call 13 " Community± homes for the handicapped . " . D . Hardie - I think we should make a list of what we wantincluded in- that . t H . Ley - It should include the types of conditions to be there , i whether it is drug related , mental health or whatever . • T . Niederkorn - Some states will riot allow them to be excluded . Let 's- come back to that one . Hi L . Hirvonen - ( 601 . 31 ) I put it underinedium with a special. . permit because a larger population would need something like that . Alb- T . Niederkorn - ( 601 . 35 ) Snomobiles , outside seasonal , conditions could be not to be stored in front yard and possibly limit the number of vehicles . This could be added . D . 'Hardie - . What about a business to store seasonal vehicles? L . Montak;ue - Could be profitable . T . Niederkorn - ( 601 . 37 ) Let ' s scratch out " or studio . " T . Niederkorn - ( 601 . 46 ) Mobile home sales should be allowed wherever :; mobile home parks are . T . Niederkorn - ( 601 . 57 ) I ' d like to make another addition, . the con . . version of existing houses into apartments . We could limit this . to ' three, or four dwellings , whatever you want . • V . Miller. - Special permits would be needed if three or four apart - j . ments as this would increase traffic and parking problems . S . Cleveland suggested the following additions be made to the list : '. 601 . 58 - Private airfields 601 . 59 - Hunting preserve 601 . 60 - Storage of toxic and hazardous waste . ' 601 . 61 - Junk yards 601 . 62 - , Natural resource - drilling and explorations 601 . 63 - Wind generation and alternate energy sources . S . Cleveland - ( 601 . 60 ) Putting special permits on this would force the government to take care of their waste on their own land .. T . Kick . What if every town said that ? " Can ' t put it on our land . " What will they do with it ? S . Cleveland - You ' ll see more and more processing facilities on the . . Aft state ' s property . ,._: , T . Kick - But then the state would have to have property in almost4 . every town . - • S . Cleveland - They can wove it on state highways . Kick - What about an industry being restricted from moving their eir 1 toxic wastes on the road ? S . Cleveland - We are talking about long term storage ° . T . Kick What does storage mean to you ? -7 - ' - T . Niederkorn - Development Policy Review - continued . D . Hardie - Why not say disposal ? V . Miller - I think we should look into that one a bit more .. V . Miller - Good planning does not allow things to be strung all over the countryside . V . Miller - We do need some people to work with this project , from various neighborhoods if , we hope to get it through . Please try . to think of someone from your neighborhood so I can talk with them . D . Hardie - Shouldn ' t we present this to the Town Board first ? S . Cleveland - Yes . Let ' s do our work first and then go to the Town Board and then to the people . • T . Niederkorn - More voices to be heard means more time involved . V . Miller - - I ' d be glad to meet with them on my own time . D . Hardie - I ' d like to hear from the Town Board first , how they feel about our work . V . Miller - I thought it would be effective to show the Town Board that - ' we do have support . S . Cleveland - Should we ail go in as a group ? Maybe if would be best for you to go and talk to them first . V . Miller I don ' t want to walk in alone .. Tom , ( Niederkorn ) can we . have a letter worked out to the Town Board before our 13th. meeting ? T . Niederkorn - Yes . • Next Meeting - April 13 , 1981 - 7 : 00 P . M . Please note new time . T . Niederkorn suggests that the members draw up • districts as each member sees them . Adjourned : 10 : 30 P . M . • cern AP , • -8 -