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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1981-03-11 TOWN OF LANSING SING PLANNING BOARD / . . Date : March 11 , 1981 • Time : 7 : 30 P . M . 4111 Present : L . Hirvonen , R . Briggs , S . Cleveland , T . Kick , V . Miller , . L . Montague- Absent : D . Hardie , H . Ley Guests : Robert Mortlock , Florita Mortlock , T . Niederkorn , Planning Consultant . I . T . Niederkorn - Development Policy Review T . NiederKorn spread out aerial maps for the members to look - over . He suggested that the members look at the districts first : : Hey pointed out the difficulties at the Village line , the Village: has low density , 60 , 000 sq . ft . lots without sewers , 30 , 000 sq . . ft . lots with sewers .. He felt that the Triphammer area:- .would be developed in the future . R . Briggs - Would you have any objections to designing .our . - definitions of these areas along the Village line sothat.: • . we can incorporate them? T . Niederkorn - No problem but it doesn ' t seem to be a . rational thing to do . It ' s hard to imagine that in. twentyfive or 4 thirty years in the future that this area will still . be in . 60 , 000 sq . ft . lots . It ' s not economical , not efficient .. The closer you get to where the utilities are concentrated- , the higher the density deviopment follows . • L . Montague - Rural residential is a bad description for that corridor ? V . Miller - Very bad . Are you saying that we can ' t call that - high density - the area 300 ' or 400 ' from the Village line back by the architect ' s place , down through there ? We : have . no high density in the Ton . We have a right for apartments . Why not there ? Sewer and water there already . L . Montague - We aren ' t really changing anything for the . people . . that are already there . V . Miller - There really isn ' t anything 'there on Burdick .. We could bring roads down there , maybe from Triphammer or up from East Shore Drive , all open land , should consider it for Sale as high density .. Just because the Village doesn ' t . want - - us to do that , we still could do it . T . . Niederkorn - The north side of Burdick Dill Road is Village and zoned low density , their low density is single slily - ' dwelling . They don ' t allow multiple housing there. = . ' H . V . Miller - Is there any reason why we can ' t have it ? T . Niederkorn - No . S . Cleveland - Is there a need for high density in the Town? V . Miller - From a tax base purpose there is , helps to pay for sewers and water . T . Niederkorn. - Is that area all sewered ? T . Kick - For all practical purposes it is , it ' s in the Village . V . Miller - Fisher ' s land is not on sewers . East Shore Drive is no - T . Kick - They are putting pipes in . down there . V . Miller - Any locality should have high density , some area for apartment houses , we don ' t want commercial in that area . T . Kick . We have apartments now , on Warren Road . Why not make that high density ? . • V . Miller - No sewers over there . T . Kick - They are studying it . • V . Miller - The request for high density had come in from people . I ' m bringing it up for your consideration . I don ' t want the whole area , limited not to cause any problems , probably no high rises . - 1 - • • Development Policy Review - continued . T . Niederkorn - What about south of Cherry Road ? Make that a multiple fap ' ly area , does it make sense ? ® V . Miller - Could be . Not a main artery , it would mean bringing in traffic not already there . Traffic is already on Trip- hammer in the area that I ' m talking about . Wouldn ' t go over to Bush Lane , traffic is not heavy there , road is not oriented for it . S . Cleveland - The controversy that surrounds high density , • looking at tie total picture , my concern is that there would be opposition to apartments from residents already in that area . You ' re looking at a total zoning package . I see red flags . V . Miller - There has been some requests from members of the Town. Board that we consider some area for high density . A limited area . R . Briggs - Medium density would do it ? T . Niederkorn - Medium density allows multiple family with sewers , 6 , 000 sq . ft . per dwelling , seven units on an acre , with sewers Not very dense . R . Briggs • - Medium density might be as far as we . want to go . • L . Montague - You ' re talking about town houses ? . T . Niederkorn - Yes . S . Cleveland - Not high density . I can see medium but not high. . L . Hirvonen - I think it ' s a good place to consider for medium • density . We have been wondering how to use it . . It ' s . been _ brought to our attention that the possibility of water and sewers is very high . Should we conform to the Village or - III make it medium and use it as a corridor to go north? It might ' be wise to do so . L . Montague - Actually what it does is extend this medium . density over _ to the lake .. What are the limitations in a hazard zone ? V . Miller - You can ' t have multiple housing there . , T . Niederkorn - No public assembly , no schools , churches . . . Mul tiple housing, no problem . Noise could be a nuisance there. . L . Montague - Would that be written in the deed ? That you would have a problem ? T . Niederkorn. - Yes . ✓ . Miller - Let ' s look at the lakeshore area , carved out , differ - ent . They arevery concerned , feel we have no handle on their problems . • R . Briggs - Will we have to allow mobile homes in low and -.rural ? T . Niederkorn - You can ' t exclude them entirely . You allow them. - in hemin rural . If they want to control the lakeshore , it ' s • pretty much built up . I don ' t know if we won ' t be in trouble if we zone that little strip and have the rest of the northern part of the Town unzoned . We may have to go back to an unclassified zone . That did get shot down before . There was special legislation to shoot it down . S . Cleveland - Shot down by the Town? T . Niederkorn - State level legislation was passed that . this Town only could zone a portion . We could test it again . We did make a strong case before . Their argument wasthat we could . come along and change it . It think it would be difficult to zone that strip , to justify it . L . Montague - If the residents want it zoned , no problem? T . Niederkorn - You could do it , but you must justify it . • ✓ . 'Miller - There are many acres of open land that is not in agriculture , as well as some that are . Can we write this up that on acreages of certain amounts that farming can be con- - 2 - • Development Policy Review - continued . tinned or not in a zoned area . It bothers a lot ' of people . There is a possibility of forty acres now for sale ; ; it . . is Wm ® a medium density zone , no farming in there unless ,. tt . i;.s "'' already going on . If they sell this land , it would } not be for development , but for farming or livestock . The people who own open land want to keep it open and be able : toaford ii L . Montague - What about other towns , people who . live ' aaeiIg Lake Ontario , Erie , the St . Lawrence , they own cottages . Do they have zoning ? T . Niederkorn - Most of them allow high density on the , lakeshore , but they are also otherwise zoned . L . Montague - So they do have a band . T . Niederkorn - We went so far in the northern part of the Town so as riot to have any restrictions on land use , or signs or parking . Still they didn ' t go along with it : V . Miller - I think we ought to try again with an unclassified zone . s S . Cleveland - I ' m for that . T . Niederkorn - Unclassified means that whenever you want to make a change it has to be brought to the attentionof the Board . • You have the ag districts now , they are protected . S . Cleveland - In essence , you are zoned when you are in an ag district . • T . Niederkorn - Pretty much the same . Let ' s get into the Zoning _ Ordinance , establish new lines , uses , density of housing . We - could possibly have three residential districts as unclassified plus the Lakeshore . If medium density allows multiple family 410 that might be okay to start. with . Where to draw the lines ? Low density - no multiple family , that ' s still okay . . Maybe . V . Miller - No tralers ? T . Niederkorn - Do we want. mobile homes in low density ? Or exclude them? They can be excluded from wherever you don ' t want them . L . Hirvonen - The Village only allows trailers with special permits in low density . They require a public hearing. . T . Niederkorn - Mobile homes should be looked at in a total picture and not in terms of the Horvath development . They are not bad . • R . Briggs - I ' ll tell you what is happening , with the current market , more and more people are buying mobile homed . $ 32 , 000 . not an unusual price for one . T . Niederkorn - You could also say that you allow mobile homes only in mobile home parks . V . Miller - Some mobile homes are better in appearance then some single family dwellings right next to them . R . Briggs - We have to allow them in somewhere . T . Niederkorn - They have the northern end of the Town . V . Miller - Can we write this too with the zones so that in any of the unclassified zones or agricultural zones thatif anything commercial goes in it can be only done by special permit ? T . Niederkorn - I don ' t think you can do that . • Miller - I ' d like to see instead of Pr unclassified zone , a 410 large open zone that ' s agricultural , something of that nature , specifying certain rules and special permits for anything commercial . R . Briggs - Do you think it would fly ? V . Miller - Yes I do . R . Briggs - You don ' t think that a non-restricted zone area could be easier to sell ? V . Miller - I ' d like to try it . What about someone putting in • - 3 - Development Policy Review - continued . something terribly distasteful adjacent to the line ? T . Niederkorn - Do you want to try to zone the whole Town or : bring at least the whole Town under the provisions of zoning? MOTION : S . Cleveland made the motion that the Planning Board develop a total Town zoning ordinance for the , Town of Lansing . T . Kick seconded it , carried unanimously . T . Niederkorn. - How do you want to handle the northern end of the Town ? Any restrictions ? In the leastrestricted . area , what kind of things do you think should be included, covered ? L . Hirvonen - Set backs ? T . Niederkorn - Set backs from the road . What about lot sizes? There are two basic things to consider , lot sizes - is one and , types of uses is the other . You already allowed anything but anything that was not agricultural or residential would require special permit . The Board of Zoning Appeals would have to approve them . R . Briggs - At a public hearing ? L . Hirvonen - A special permit requires apublic hearing . T . Niederkorn - What about density medium lot size , should we: skip that at this point ? • L . Hirvonen - The Health Department will regulate that . T . Kick - 200 by 200 now . T . Niederkorn - Set backs and sign control - the Town already wants that . L . Hirvonen - What about building permits ? . T . Niederkorn_ - It would be required especially for all non- residential , all special type uses . Is it important . to pick out certain roads and bring up set backs? V . Miller - On corners it is , close to intersections . S . Cleveland - You suggest selling overall zoning? T . Niederkorn. - We can ' t put on undue restrictions . S . Cleveland - Zoning protects them and it makes the framework_ , for the future . Basis to control good land use . ' T . Niederkorn - How about a small list of prohibitive uses? S . - Cleveland - Pick out some popular ones and list them . T . Niederkorn - Medium density is presently about right ? : L . Hirvonen - As to size of lots ? • T . Niederkorn - 6 , 000 sq . ft . with sewers , 20 , 000 sq . ft . . without .. Is that reasonable ? If the Health Department restrictions are - more restrictive they always take precedent . L . Hirvonen - I thought we wanted to make some changes . T . Niederkorn - More dense ? S . Cleveland - Medium density meets the need . T . - Niederkorn - What about apartments ? All on package sewer plants S . Cleveland - What about the apartments on Warren Road ? Are they On a package sewer ? T . Kick - By the airport ? They have septic tanks . They had problems with them . Had to switch from sand filters . T . Niederkorn — Let ' s work on mobile homes at the next meeting . Continue on Article VI , visualize the range of zoning districts . It would facilitate things . IIs Reorganization for 1981 L . Hirvonen presented the proposed slate of officers for 1981 ; Chairman - V . Miller , Vice - chairman - D . Hardie , Treasurer T . Kick , Secretary - L . Hirvonen . MOTION : S . Cleveland made the motion that the Secretary cast one ballot for the proposed slate . C . Montague cast one unanimous ballot . , —4 — • III . Minutes from previous meeting . Correction _ dated January 26 , 1981 - change to February. 9. , 1981 MOTION : T . Kick moved to accept the minutes as corrected . S . Cleveland seconded , carried unanimously . • IV . Other Business An application for approval of a sign was submitted to N . Stanton by Jacoba Baker for Baker ' s Acres , 1106 Auburn Road , North Lansing . The sign is to be located on her property , measuring 6 ' x 7 ' , about 50 sq . ft . in size , black script lettering , 25 ' high , 40 ' from the road . S . Cleveland - Mr . Niswinder ' s sign ( corner of Lansinville Road and 34 -B ) measured six square feet and it does comply . Why couldn ' t Bakers L: se a state sign? That is a state road . I ' d like to see it considered . They ' d be eligible . ' L . Montague - I think we ought to send them a notice about that . T . Kick . - Are there any restrictions on how many feet off the ground ? S . Cleveland - Munsons would be eligible for a state sign . They are on a primary road . They have the costs , materials and other specifics from the Department of Transportation . Has this application gone to the BZA ? L . Hirvonen - Not if there is no objection from us . If it falls within the ordinance , Norm ( Stanton ) will take care of it . S . Cleveland - Look on page 51 ( Land Use Control Ordinance ) , Section 1502 . 5 " Home occupations : identification signs shall . bear only the name of the person residing on the preaises and the profession. or occupation being conducted on the pre - mises . Such signs shall be located within the property lines of the premises identified , shall not exceed one in ® number and nine square feet in area and shall be non-flashing . . R . Briggs - It doesn ' t seem to coffiply . L . Montague - Look under # 6 , " Business establishment , retail stores , restaurants , banks and insurance companies : iden- • tification signs shall not exceed two in number the aggregate of which shall not exceed 50 square feet in area . . . " • L . Hirvonen - And it cannot be no more then 25 ' off the ' ground , or higher then two times the overall height : of the sign which- ever is more restrictive . T . Kick - Why is this considered a home occupation? . R . Briggs - It ' s a greenhouse on their property . L . Montague - The building was built specifically for : abusiness and not as part of the . home . S . Cleveland - Let ' s use the state signs , they ' re attractive , better . I feel very strongly about that . L . . Montague - I agree . L . Hirvonen - I wonder if they are referring to Section 1502 . 13 ? " For all other non-residential uses : identification signs not to exceed one in number or be greater then 50 sq . ft . in area . " R . Brigs - I don ' t like 50 sq . ft . signs . L . Montague - Is this attached to the house ? T . Kick - No . The greenhouse is attached to a potting Shed , an. apartment . It ' s between the barn and that before you get to the road . It ' s definitely not attached to the house . L . Montague - Then it ' s a business establisn.ment . T . Kick - It seems to me that it could be considered that . S . Cleveland - It ' s a business establishment vs . a home occupation' L . Montague - Right . It ' s separate from the house . S . Cleveland - I ' d like home occupation defined for me . L . Montague - A home occupation be definition is a business within the home . - 5 - Other Business - continued . • S . Cleveland - It doesn ' t say anything about being in the home , just business operated on the premises . Subject to inter_pre - tation. it seems to me . AllL . Montague - What we don ' t need is a lot of big signs on the . highway . L . Hirvonen - This is being considered as a business and I asked Norm why it is not being considered as a home occupation and he said he is just following the pattern the BZA set . They allowed the Munsons a 20 sq . ft . sign . S . Cleveland - What ' s the sense oZ having a Zoning Ordinance if they are not going to apply it ? L . Hirvonen - Norm said that he felt it was certainly open to, question . I think a letter on the Planning Boardd ' . s part would be appropriate . We have nothing to do with it . As far .as ' I know , the BZA have not approved it . The Bakers have applied for a permit . I don ' t know if it has been granted . R . Briggs - Let ' s recommend that it not be approved . L . Hirvonen - At the moment the sign is about 42 sq . ft . but they will want to add attachments as the seasonal items come along . T . Niederkorn_ - According to your ordinance , this is not a home occupation . R . Briggs - I ' d like to resign from this board - everything ' we try to do we are ham strung by rules and regulations . There is no way that that sign should be allowed in a residential area . T . Kick - Is that a residential area ? R . Briggs - Sure it is . MOTION : S . Cleveland made the motion that this Board should raise two questions to the BZA : with regard to the Jacoba Baker sign permit regarding the nature of the occupation whether the pro - posed sign comes under home occupations Article 1502 . 5 and whether this sign should be considered eligible for a State Department of Transportation sign as it is located on a . • primary state highway . Seconded by L . Montague , carried unanimously . • L . Hirvonen - This will go to the BZA with a copy to Norm Stanton . S . Cleveland - There should be a clarification of whether this is a business establishment or a home occupation . R . Briggs - Isn ' t that near Tisdales ' , there are four to eight apartments there , a big farm house , seems to me that this is a residential area . S . Cleveland - It ' s unzoned . R . Briggs - Forget that that is unzoned . How can we allow a sign like that there ? L . Hirvonen - The Planning Board has nothing to say about whether_ the sign will be approved or not , all we can do is have input . S . Cleveland - Another thing , a precedent has been set in terms of the Munson request . The BZA will do what they want . L . Montague - We want a strong voice . Precedents' can be broken . L . Hirvonen - I ' d like to suggest that if you people are unhappy with the sign ordinance that we get together and revise it . It ' s worked before with the trailer park ordinance . R . Brigs - Can we do it without zoning ? L . Hirvonen - We did it in the past so I would say there is a very good possibility . R . Briggs - I have no objection to the sign , just its size . T . Niederkorn - This is an awkward situation . The BZA has nothing to do with it . What authority they have ? If you don ' t have zoning , you should have no zoning board of appeals . The Town must be taught this . - 6- • . Other Business - continued . { . V . Miller - The Town Board ' s reasoning On this is that they had a sign ordinance before zoning came in the Town . They in- ` . corporated it as part of . the zoning and made it town-wide 411 and I never did quite understand that . T . Niederkorn - You can have a sign ordinance if you want one but there is no such thing as a zoning board of appeals ,., they have no jurisdiction . V . Miller - That ' s a nice thing to remember when you are talking to them . L . Hirvonen - Would it be better to have a sign ordinance that is not incorporated in a zoning ordinance ? T . Niederkorn - Yes . It wouldn ' t differentiate between. a home occupation or a business . There would be no judicial board of appeals to determine one thing or the other . L . Hirvonen - We should consider this . I suggest that we dis - buss this at our next meeting . V . Franklin-Maple Drive • L . Hirvonen - You all received a letter from Florita Mortlock representing their neighbors requesting zoning changes in their area . R . Briggs - Are you sure you can lock up your area ? F . Mortlock - Yes . Definitely . R . Mortlock - We felt we were protected from trailers . It was quite a shock to us to find out we weren ' t . T . Kick - At the northern end of your property , there are trailers already . What about those people ? F . Mortlock — That area will not be affected . 111 T . Kick - How far are you going above Franklin Drive ? R . Mortlock - Armstrong , Franklin and Maple Drive . Not to Triphammer . S . Cleveland - Does it include the trailer on the north side of ' Franklin Drive on the corner of Triphammer ? F . Mortlock - No . S . Cleveland - That trailer was removed and then replaced by. another trailer . Was there a violation by that act ? L . Hirvonen - I believe you are allowed to do that, replace a non- conforming structure already existing there with another non- conforming structure . S . Cleveland - Are we looking at the total picture of zoning needs ? We could be confronted with the same thing again . L . Hirvonen - Let ' s look at an entire area rather then a ' very small segment . V . Miller - In other wards , if I read you all right , you think it would be a wise idea to delay action on this until we can look at the whole area and ask for a larger incorporated area . L . Hirvonen - One of the things that we have to consider is that Once a change is made for a segment of medium density area or low density area then it has to apply to all of the other medium or -low densityareas in the Town . We can ' t just take . your area and say that this is what has to be done . F . Mortlock - Why not ? We were under the impression that that was what spot zoning was going to do . T . Niederkorn - That can be done , sure . That ' s not really scot zoning as such . It does not benefit only one single property owner ,. I ' m not sure it ' s a sound zoning or planning procedure . ' We should discuss the options - if it ' s just a ' question of keeping trailers out and if it ' s a question of definition there is no reason that the Town Board couldn ' t act on it -7 - Franklin-Maple Drive - continued . immediately . It would apply everywhere in the Town , where • there is zoning . No problem with that . It ' s when you start changing a zoned area from what it is now to something else to accommodate one or two dozen properties that are basically the same as any other property , the same category , that I begin to say it is not sound . Obviously the definition of a mobile home must be improved . F . Mortlock - When this man applied for a permit , he applied ' for a modular home . It is not a modular home . We have a modular home in our area . We need help with the definitions . T . Niederkorn - There is a basic policy question_ here - do we permit mobile homes on single lots anywhere ? You are hoping for no mobile homes . The ultimate protection . What they should do then is if they feel it is important for that area , it is equally important for all areas . Should they be excluded from every area ? F . Mortlock - I understand . We have property taken off of the market because of this . Don ' t know what the reaction • will . be . We have immediate problem tnat these two pieces of property are wanted to be put back on the market but they are . afraid . that two trailers will be put on them . We need immediate protection. • L . Montague - Tom , can we run into a discrimination thing here ? T . Niederkorn - No . There is so much of this Town that is not zoned , for mobile homes . L . Montague - I ' m talking about spot zoning , if we are saying that no longer can we put certain types of dwellings on • them? Are we going to be brought up on this legally ? T . Niederkorn, - No , I don ' t think so . We ' re not restricting the value of them . L . Montague - Yes we are . Trailers have a minimum value . R . Briggs - Do you know what that is right now ? They ' re running $ 30 , 000 to $ 40 , 000 . T . Niederkorn - Generally speaking if there is any place for mobile homes in the ' Town there is no discrimination . L . ' Hirvonen - The Village doesn ' t allow trailers anywhere . S . Cleveland - The purpose of zoning and land use controls is to respond to this question . We don ' t see it as a question of . discriminating against mobile homes . We are determining those areas where they can or cannot be allowed . We need pro - • tection for orderly land use control and that is zoning . V . Miller - It occurs to me that we have a certain number of areas in this Town that are zoned , some low density . I think that we are trying to say that at least within_ the zoned areas that • we have to incorporate the same rules and regulations pertaining to their low density that we would have say in another low density area of the Town . That is what we have not had yet the chance to address . I think that the feeling of this Board is that if we give this protection - what we do for one low density area we must do for the others in low density areas . We- need more time for this . Hopefully we are going forward with this as quickly as possible andwe will be able to react to their request very soon . R . Mortlock - Can you give us a timetable on this ? Hirvonen - We had hoped to , et a lot done by December by June , hopefully . I think that one of the things thattweoja have to do before we even het into the various areas is . that . • we have to update our list of definitions . It . wou.l. dn ' t do us any good to change the zoning in your area by definition if it were no longer applicable . That has to be done first . • -8 - Franklin-Maple Drive - continued . • • T . - Niederkorn - Does the Town Board want to adopt the Zoning Ordinance by piece -meal or all at once ? V . Miller - My feeling is that they want to do it all at .once . T . Niederkorn - We are thinking about adding minimum area not zoned and changing stuff already there , probably changing . some of the contents itself . It will be a fair size package . V . Miller - - One of the things that will help us is that we have people like this , willing to come forth , back us up and • will help us with the Town Board so that when we are through we will have a . much better picture of the whole Town . This is very important for people to come .. forth . R . Briggs - Would we need a public hearing on any changes in the Ordinance ? • V . Miller - Yes . Change one word and you will need a public hearing . L . Montague - Anytime you want to change things you get more negative reaction then positive . ,. The people who want it will sit back and not fight for it , they think it will happen anyway . ' We need positive reactions as to what we want town-wide . We need td showewe are doing something . - R . Briggs - Okay , first we put together a package , set a dead - • line , submit it to the Town Board , have a public hearing . They go to the public hearing , we don ' t . . V . Miller - That ' s correct . We have o convince the Town Board , go back and forth with them .. T . Niederkorn. - I think we need leaverage for the whole package . May be able to speed it up . 410 R . Briggs - The bottom line is that if the Town Board does not accept our package , does not act , we resign as a body . V . Miller - That ' s a fine idea . T . Niederkorn - We can get a lot done . Need to shift focus on zoning rather then . a Master Plan . Master planning can be highly overrated . V . Miller - We have a Master Plan . Let ' s work on the zoning ,. • L . Hirvonen - I think that in all fairness to the Mortlocks we should have a consensus of opinion from this Board .. . They have been going on with this problem for many months . V . Miller - I appreciate their concern and their coming in and we do . wish to act on it , their concern is valid . On a long range , if it can ' t be done I feel reasonably sure that on a small range it can be done and will be done . Hopefully they understand our position and recognize what we are trying to do . R . Mortlock - Can you give us a timetable ? V . Miller - I hope for summer . We need to sell it . We need people like the Mortlocks to help us sell it . S . Cleveland - By June 1st ? T . Kick - What percentage of the Town Board has to approve it ? V . Miller - A simple diajority does it . F . Mortlock - We approached the Town Board first , twenty of us . They said not to make it too big . L . Hirvonen - We have all of your correspondence on file . : F . Mortlock - And we have yours . We make copies of them and pass ® them around the neighborhood . We also have meetings . T . Niederkorn - I think we can be done by June 1st . Let ' s get to work on it . Next Meeting : March 26 , 1981 . Please note - Thursday evening . Adjourned : 10 : 00 P . M . cem - 9 -