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Home My WebLink About1981-02-09 TOWN UE- LANbiNG i:' LAi\ NING • 1:SOAhD f /f i ?Date gid- �zfi, a6 -981 �_ei„,_, , v, / z ,�/ �/= /., /yj 1 . Time : 7 : 30 P . M . * ' Present : Chairman D . Hardie , B . Briggs , S . Cleveland , L . - Hirvonen , : Y;;, • . T . Kick , H. . Ley , • L . Montague Absent : V . Miller . . .. " Guest : T . Niederkorn , Planning Consultant I . ' Development Policy, keview. . T . Niederkorn started the meeting by - having; the members present go over the revised draft of the Development Policy and the permitted uses in the Zoning Ordinance . The ' policy and then the proposals ,H • - . 1 ' will follow as in the original plan . He noted that basic . land development controls are solid justifications for going ahead with the proposed plan . He had received a ' letter from the . State saying s' : , that they do not know of any case law saying that 'this is . either . ; . . poaitive or negative in terms of isolated zoning . The State feels �� .�� .that it is acceptable with a document to justify it . - 1 D . Hardie - On # 2 , Development Intensity - I thought that . we :. should include the Lakeview area , north of Peruville Road , the - P1yers area . T . Niederkorn - That will be alright . ` H. . Ley . - Once you ' re past Lakeview , it ' s a rural area . ' L . - Montague - Would that include Fiddler ' s Green ? D . Hardie - Yes . I, . Montague - There ' s always a possibility of future development . ' D . Hardie - You mean to continue it right up 34 -B? • H . Ley . - Beckwith ' splace . . . . H. D . Hardie - Talked with . John Thompson about his place . He worked ' ' 410- , - :4 the original plan . _ He felt it was " the only thingto - dowith P y that beautiful section . We could ' go up to , at least theFlynms ' . They, certainly would be interested . ` .: T. . Niederkorn - The next road up would be Ross ? _ We talked about ' going all the way out to Cayuga County . - - . D . Hardie - Politically speaking , you ' re taking in two of ' the . Howells properties , Bud and Charlie Howell . . • -L . Hirvonen - One of the things that we talked about was making : .the . - lake.: .shore a .. separate area to study . When we went over ... the Planned Use Regulations we didn ' t consider the lake • shore ' as low s: or medium because it has different needs , but as a different study . ,, , T . Niederkorn -. : Opportunities are .. uecoming more limited . . ,' We'' could revise the Zoning Ordinance and extend it - further northif' you_ felt farms were suitable . - : . R . Briggs . - Even if you go to Ross Road , you ' ll hit Howells . ' • S . Cleveland - What ' s thesignificance of the Howells in this ? . R . Briggs - Anti - zoning . . L . Hirvonen - I ' m not :sure if this is the way it was done , but some - one said to me that whei, Triphammer was zoned the committee. that worked on it here hac, . only taken the zoning to Asbury Road and • Some of the neighbors further north on Triphammer who thought that ' . they would like to be ' included were questioned . Would : that be an idea for us to use ? If the Board set a line , could we avoid hassles by polling the people and finding out what they want , how far we could take it without causing a furor ? • R . Briggs - Take what ' s there and try . to add to it later on . . D . Hardie - Have you ever done anything like this , Tom? • T . Niederkorn - No problem . The bigger the area the more you can justify it . You will need a public hearing . • H . " Ley - Do you mean to canvas them? L . Hirvonen - No . A Public hearing once a plan has been proposed . . . - 1 - . . Development Policy Review - continued . , T . Niederkorn - Pick out the Lakeview area , no longer rural , people want zoning . . sr . . . H L . Hirvonen - I ' m concerned about the area that we outlined in the Myers area . D . Hardie - Too much ? L . Hirvonen - I ' m worried about the people on Wildcrness Road , they might not want it . D . Hardie - McMillans and Gardiners , I know , they may not be opposed to it . L . Montague - Page 2 , are we making statements about utilities . S . Cleveland - I ' m concerned about agriculture . Agricultural areas in northern part of the Town are riot affected , is there one ag district ? . D . Hardie - Yes , it ' s part of a larger ag district . . Takes in a tre - rnenduous part of the Town . When you compare the ag district to total Town - it ' s a large portion of the Town . T . Kick - I have a comment on utilities , the realisticway of look ing at it with regard to water and sewers . We stipulate the ' size of the lots ( 200 ' x20. 01 ) and in affect you are saying that you are keeping the . population to a minimum so the land can. absorb - . the wastes . But you create a monster with the cost . ;; What comes : first ? Bwollow the cost - reduce the size of the lot; , . can ' t . break the circle , put the house on the side somehow so you can sell a lot to build on , don ' t know the solution . . . We ' llnever. have water or sewers unless we have a larger tax baseto • spread it out . Every year the cost will go higher . . : L , Moata iue - That ' s what I question about " ultimately provided . " � D . Hardie - Continue . to read it , " . . . where major growthactivity :- is\ expected or desired . " ' That does limit it . T . Kick - The cost is unbelievable . In affect it ' s adding . another school tax bill plus the cost of water plus the cost from the road to your house . . You can ' t . sell that . S . Cleveland - That was the projection six months ago ? . T . ` Kick - Now it ' s even higher . T . Niederkorn - I suppose one thing you could do is make . • larger lot - • sizes , possibly three acres ; : iinirnum , big enough to subdivide . You . could divide it into three lots . Build your house in the middle so as ' not to straddle future lot lines . When. sewers come, ' eubdivide and ' sell off two lots . Would that be feasible ? . T . Kick - My example with theschool tax is based on the assessed valuation . If you go . by frontage , the farmers will get zapped . 'D . 'Hardie Horky would have to sell off lots , no choice . - T . Niederkorn The only place where you are going to get . sewers ~ in . , the next twenty years is probably going to be an extension of . the Village - system . T . Kick - The biggest problem that we have in the whole Town ' is Lud - . ---nWille . It ' s the furthest point from the plant . T . Niederkorn - Do you think that will be a problem ? T . Kick - I hear that raw sewage is being dumped into the creek • right now . T . Niederkorn - We must look to Ludlowville and the surrounding area . It has the largest base to su , port it . That ' s within striking distance of the plant . `' L . Hirvonen - That ' s one area we . left out . , . T . Kick . - Getting into the water thing , the Lakeview area has the worse problem with water in the Town and once again •it - is the furthest point from Bolton . H . Ley - Ludlowville has both problems . - • T . Kick - Our area is way down in water , we ' re getting sulpherw. D . Hardie - The first sentence is fine . - 2 - . • Development Policy Review - continued . T . . Niederkorn - Wording is okay . I added " . . . or where sewage disposal is already a problem . ® S . Cleveland ' - Change one word , " these vital services may ultimately " We have to face the reality of inflation , the energy crisis , the expanding; tax burden may alter the growth patterns . H . Ley - I don ' t think Ludlowville is the point for sewers . L . Montague - I agree . T . Niederkorn - I quarrel with t . e word , " may " . You ' ll get no growth without utilities . It seems to me that you will have to say that these vital services will have to be provided - ix order to have major growth in the area . • S . Cleveland - Okay . But there is a reverse migration trend right now due to the energy crisis , cost of commuting . T . Niederkorn What we- ' re really trying to do here is to develop some justification I' or land use or development . . Cannot support it without sewers . No sewers - no density . Simple . By • adding that . other thing , " where sewage problems already exist . " If there - is a health problem they will have to do something about it . When we get to land use for Ludlowville , what about a disposal plant there ? It ' s not zoned . T . Kick - My personal opinion is to put a plant there , sewer and water . It ' s the lowest part of the Town from a gravity point . . • Let it flow down . T . Niederkorn - I ! 11 make a note of it . T . Kick - Economics say to do it . Don ' t know what they ' ll say . L . Hirvonen - If Myers doesn ' t bet a fishing wharf , maybe we ' ll ® yet it there . Cheaper . T . Niederkorn - The last part of tine utilities paragraph reads , • " . . . . the actual construction of water and sewage lines , will be related to long-range land use plans rather then engineering possibilities . " How realistic is that ? Those . who need them , . will want them . It ' s economics versus planning . T . Kick . - What about holding tanks ? hire the Town to pump them . R . Briggs - A collection spot ? Removed on a time basis ? T . Kick Yes . S . Cleveland - How can we afford to do it ? D . Hardie - Not septic tanks , holding tanks . I think Sid is saying we can ' t afford to do it . Raw sewage is riot good . But so far . - . , , . _ .: r H no problems . Can we afford to do something about it ? ' . . - T . Kick - Look what happened to Lake ' Erie . Do you want that here ? • D . Hardie * 1 dont see .that same development in Ludlowvifle. T . Niederkorn - What about taking the first sentence out . of A ? . , What is a realistic approach to Town land on edge of the Village ? Would it develo if utilities were available ? p Not much develop- n.: ment down . there ribht - now . • • D . Hardie - Is it partially due to the individual who owned the land ' S . Cleveland - This could ctian6e with change o1 ownership . D . Hardie - Across from Burdick hill ? T . Kick - The Village doesn ' t want development there . - L . Hirvonen - The Village doesn ' t want us to encourage development • there in the southern end of the Town . They refused our Zoning Ordinance after we tried to accommodate ours to theirs , . • 0 H . Ley - If Lymand Fish wanted to develop his square mile , ' they . wouldn ' t let him do it ? T . Niederkorn - If he followed their requirements they would have to let him . They don ' t want it . What about the Cayuga Hei , hts pl • - 3 - . - • Development Policy Review - continued . L . Hirvonen - I heard they were refused . T . kick - They were refused on cost . They wanted it equitable . ®. That ' s my understanding . T . Niederkorn - Do you think tree Village will extend up Triphammer' T . Kick - Yes , up to a few hundred feet of the Town line . D . Hardie - Up . to Cherry Road ? T . Kick - Yes . L . Hirvonen - They couldn ' t ; et their funding if they didn ' t . . T . Kick - We are part of that district . T . Niederkorn - They have to allow it . 1' , . ey have low density , what about commercial - residential ? T . Kick - They are concerned that 'Triphammer will become another Elmira Road . • T . Niederkorn - What does this group think ? - _ L . Monta 'ue - There ' s a lot for sale on the corner of Oakcrest . T . Niederkorn - That ' s a very small parcel . . L . Hirvonen - I don ' t think commercial will go any further . The Village won ' t allow it . A good start is the renovation of that house . • H . Ley . - What are we' looking at ? A few hundred families from the Morse Chain expansion coming in? T . Niederkorn Page 3 , . Commercial Development of Town should be limited . We won ' t show strict commercial development out Triphammer' . L . Hirvonen - I . agree , w« ole strip should be one zone . Personally , thinking about the Horvath Drive people , maybe medium density , can it be medium density next to Village low density ? D . Hardie - We could do it with low density . Maybe this one first . ' • T . Niederkorn - You all agree with # 7 ? No problems ? T . Kick - You are aware that the Village is trying to deemphasize Triphammer and make Warren Road the main route for traffic ? They want to widen - Warren Road . : T . Niederkorn - Is that what you want ? Hillcrest will get heavier _ with traffic.. L . Montague - It is now . S . Cleveland When Morse Chain comes in the traffic will really increase . D . Hardie - You can conclude that some new people from' Morse Chaim will . move into . Lansing . . . . S . Cleveland - When that plant is completed it will be a, • good time • . to sell . Realtors are trying to list property now . AJ . Hirvonen - I ' d like to ask a - question - on - # 6 . You use the words " . . . . by use of an official map showing present and future roads , " • The Town Board has to go over this . Will they . accept it ? Also , " . . . . a continuing , five year program for maintenance "and - improve - ment will be established . " Is that a proposal ? T . Niederkorn ° - Makes sense to me . My inclination is to suggest it • to them , that they bring it up , argue it , present it , to the people , budget it . ' We will suggest that this will be the policy . D . Hardie - Should the word , " should " instead of " will " : be used ? T . Niederkorn - Maybe we could make it all in the present . D . . Hardie - We want leadership in planning . That ' s what this is 1 all about . . L . . Hirvonen - Look at jig - Natural Resources . You combined some of • the things from the old plan . Look into section C ( # 10 ) . We hashed this over before . The Town does riot want any new financial responsibilities with parks . We took it out . T . Niederkorn - No cash value ? - 4 - Development Policy Review - continued . L . Montague - That ' s right . AI' T . Niederkorn - That ' s too bad . If the `Town took the Cash- value . they could maintain the parks . L . Hirvonen - The Town felt it was a hardship , prevented developme: T . Niederkorn — Well , then let ' s eliminate it . L . Hirvonen 10 -A , " The Town has assumed initiative in developing parks and open spaces and intends to continue with this effort is new opportunities arise . " As need arises might be better . T . Niederkorn - Okay . R . Briggs - The Town has the first right of refusal on the railroai lands . It was turned down flat . They weren ' t interested . S .. Cleveland - It would be better on the tax rolls . D . Hardie - Let ' s look at the present Town lark , lots of different situations . Park idea would be more acceptable and necessary . I see your point Tom . Take the cash . If population increases the Town might think parks were a necessity . T . Niederkorn - The developers pass the cost onto the . buyers any - . way . Would establish a precedent . Could be put back in . - Anything else ? ` T . Kick - , Do you like #12 Lorne ? ( Energy Conservation ) '. -L . Montague - Certainly . We ( NYSE& G ) have been doing it , for the past few years . T . Kick - Speak for Lansing , is it true ? I don ' t believe it . _The Town has not been doing it , that nuclear plant , ' the - Town didn ' t . fight for it . . R . Briggs - Basically , their strongest position was that they didn ' t oppose it . T . Kick - The Town did not fight for it . . D . Hardie - They encouraged it , but they didn ' t fight for it . L . Hirvonen - " development of potential energy resources which might exist and will modify land use controls . . . . " I don ' t understand your use of " will modify land use controls. " . T . Niederkorn Only thing to make sense now is situply , requiring this in rear and side yards - modify - soften restrictions on : : height requirements . Solar , windmills . Do it soft . The Board of Appeals could pass a variance for solar : heat . S . Cleveland - : A question are we seeing an increase in the number of towns passing regulations on tree cutting ? This "ii not . heavily forested land , ' As inc eases in wood demand come , there is a 30% projected increase in woodcutting . D . Hardie Do you mean the use of wood as a fuel ? ' L . Montague - It ' ll be .higher then that . ` S . Cleveland We need wood lot management . There have been three . cases in the state right now where absentee land owners return tc their land after a year or so and find it clear cut . Are there any regulations for enforcing this ? We must be realistic to provide guidance with harvesting of wood . T . Niederkorn .. - Could be included . Very interesting thought . Under Natural Resources . S . Cleveland - The Town recognizes the value of its natural resource . . T . Niederkorn - We can add a new paragraph . S . Cleveland - This is important for the future . Upwards of 1 , 000 acres in Allegany County have been clear cut . In terms Of visual effect , erosion , the DEC is concerned . Chippers go in , blow the . trees right out , draw it away in trucks for particleboard . How do we deal with that ? T . Niederkorn - It might be difficult to control in this Town , for the land owner not to clear cut . - 5 - Development Policy Review - continued . : S , Cleveland . - It could happen right here . Very important . L . Hirvonen - You took out the section on drainage ways . ; Would that ® be relevant ? Is there a definite hazard , an erosion problem in gorges ? T . Niederkorn - I put it in under Parks and Development . D . Hardie - I thought you were going; to say something in #12 , Sid • - , : about gas drilling . S . Cleveland - There is a known reservoir in the Town . In 1943 they drilled here . ' D . Hardie - With the decontrol of gas , it would make it . more valuable . A well might be drilled in such a position We might . consider it to be commercial development in a residential area . S . Cleveland - In terms of noise , air pollution , a rotary drill , . it could be tremenduous . D - Hardie - But , still , we should encourage it . , T . Niederriorn - A limit should be set , unless some resid4a14to owner . Z . Cleveland - Big question in Chautauqua County right now . . Big problem there , L . _ Monta 'ue - Whole area has the problem , Erie , Wyoming , Counties . Tom Todd ( Davis Road ) has been approached . D . Hardie - There is no doubt that there is gas here. Another Change we might see due to the energy crunch . . S . Cleveland - What about the building of future transmission lines through fhe area? L . Montague - Not - since the plant won ' t be built here . Have full . capacity now . T . Neiderkorn . - We could add #15 , Environmental Assessment . We irshould add that the Town is concerned with environmental assesamen impact . Areas all over not zoned . S . Cleveland - Do we have any designated wet lands in the Town? T . Niederkorn - A few . Did you get into zoning? II . Review of Low Density Changes ' : ' L . Hirvonen - Yea . Not many changes . D . Hardie - You should have a set of our minutes , give youan idea of what we are doing . ( C . E . Montague will send last two minutes of the meetings to T . Niederkorn . ) T . Niederkorn - When you change things from rural to low density , all . the things ,would apply . Do you feel uses were . appropriate ?- ;' D . Hardie - We said , let ' s go to low density residential ' and See how it fits this area we were looking at . We have four things to ask yc L . Hir� onen A neighbor of . mine has a . greenhouse and a small gardening business . Is that - under crop farming? It ' s a small thing , she ' s . . . not licensed , but she sells . , • D . Hardie - I question crop farming . I said crop fanning is large machinery . . R . Briggs - I object to crop farming in low density . L . Hirvonen - I look at this from my small area and that is , one reason why I want to change that main area on Tripharnrner . - It should go residential .. There are areas like Myers and Ludlowville , : people will object because they have a little of this and a little of that , can ' t be rural . D . Hardie - You are saying that medium density would allow . them to - Mr ve more restrictions ? . . T . eaericorn - Low would be more restrictive . . .R . Briggs - I agree , - . L . Hirvonen - I don ' t know how to differentiate between them . - ' R . Briggs - Figure it this way , the more dense the population , the more services they willneed , more things are permitted . -6 . . Review of Low Density Changes - continued . S . Cleveland - Is John Hicks in an ag district ? 4 D . Hardie - Yes . No problems there . Now allowed in low but allowed in ag . T . Niederkorn - We could put in a definition on crop farming . L . Montague - Commercial farming ? . L . Hirvonen . - Not unless licensed . ' L . Montague - To me , it means tons of vegetables all at one time . I . Hirvonen - Right . I see commercial gardening being , sometlilig . big , like McGuire ' s , _ licensed . ' D . Hardie - Let ' s restrict crop farming from low density .: Next one - accessory buildings and road side stands - residential area - can ' t see it . T . Niederkorn - In a Medium or low density . You nave road side stands right now . L . Hirvonen - Norm Stanton turns a blind eye towards them , a seasonal thing . R . Briggs - Maybe there : should be a time period to it , have to take down the signs . . . S . Cleveland - Temporary or seasonal thing - change . T . Niederkorn - Will make a note of it , it ' s seasonal . ` L . Hirvonen - We wanted to add a new one for mobile and ' one for modular homes . • . . ` R . Briggs . - Two new categories , two different ones . ` D . Hardie - My thought was to change it to rural , slash out the L . T . Niedericorn - Why not call them dwellings ? Will change them ix definition section . L . Hirvonen - We want you to make up the definition . R . Briggs - Four people came up with four different ideas on what ® the definition said . D . Hardie - What ' s cluster housing? T . . Niederkorn - Cluster housing is a technique whereby you can . reduce the minimum lot size , for instance one hundred units on ' onehundred acres , as long as the residual land is set up for • community use by the landowners . It ' s partly an • answer to make lot sizes smaller , cluster homes together , use rest of it for sewers , recreation . . D . Hardie -. home occupations ? ' L . Montague - . Our . question was , when does it become not , a home occupation ? When a barber adds a chair or two to his basement operation , does that make it no longer a home occupation? T . Niederkorn - This definition doesn ' t seem to say that you can '. t limit the number of people working there . Could be hard to enfo : ' Z . Hirvonen - We added asteriks on C special permits . R . Briggs - So you could have control of it . • • D . Hardie - Keep it commercial , not cluttered with home ' businesses . R . Briggs - Homes should not be allowed in commercial . T . Niederkorn - But you do already have them there . S . Cleveland - You ' ll . see those increasing . D . Hardie - Cabin or cottage ? , L . Hirvonen - No problem , we decided to treat them, differently . . D . Hardie - We are concerned with seasonal storage , the abuse of it , . T . Niederkorn - That is a problem to control . Perhaps a special. : condition applied to. one or two only . I ' ll redesign it. . • _ p„: : Special permits needed . . T . Kick - I think it ' s perfectly okay , if enclosed like Cima ' s . D . Hardie - Maybe if some people complained about this being put ix , we should leave it out ? T . Niederkorn - L M H' C only ? D . Hardie - Rural okay . . L . Hirvonen - Take a drive down 34 -B , it can look pretty shoddy-. . - 7 - . . Review of Low Density Changes - continued . . D . ' Hardie 601 . 34 - define the definition of studio . il . . , . . , T . Niederkorn - Any thoughts ? You want to Know what it is - Sounds like an artist or a musician to me . D . Hardie - TV and radio transmission towers . There is a problem with ham operators , private transmitters . - T . Niederkorn - We could possible control the height of the towers : R . Briggs - They come through your home appliances . T . Niederkorn. - Not a zoning matter . Can control the : height of tr towers only . Retail sales , will that be allowed 601' . 36 ? - L . Hirvonen Medium density areas need services . . T . Niederkorn - Shouldn ' t be in . If Triphammer is rnedium , retail would go along with it . R . Briggs - The southern area of Lansing - confine them there . . T . . Niederkors - Make it a commercial district . None there at all . D . Hardie - What do we want not in there with regard to low densit ' T . Niederkorn - Why just low density ? - D . Hardie - I thought ' we should take one category at a time . . T . Niederkorn - Applicable elsewhere , all of the usesin all of, th districts. . Should establish a commercial district ' They all require special permits almost . Some might not be appropriate anymore . - L . Montague - Gas utilities not needed an asterisk . 7 . D . Hardie - We should go a step further Tom . Give us Yan assignmen for our next meeting . T . Niederkorn - Take it use by use , number by number , . make notes . . with- your questions, mobile home versus modular home . L . Hirvonen - Would you like me to read the definitions that you sent to us ? T . Niederkorn - Yes . . Please see enclosure of letter from T . Niederkorn to D . Hardie giving the definitions . III . Re ©rganization for 1931 MOTION : S . Cleveland made the :notion that the reorganization be postponed until the March 16 , 1981 meeting . Seconded by T . Kick , carried unanimously . IV . _ Minutes from previous meetings November 24 , 1980 - S . Cleveland moved to accept the minutes . ' L . Montague seconded , carried unanimously . - December 8 , 1980 - Page 1 . D . Hardie - We do have guide lines . ' ' There . ( sp . correction.- They . ) Page 4 . L . Montague - Ten years ago there. were . no modular homes . As far as Norm Stanton is concerned ` a mobile home and a single family . dwelling are two different things . ( Delete . ) S . Cleveland moved to accept the minutes ` .as correcte R . Briggs seconded , carried unanimously . • January 12 , 1981 - unapproved - no quorum present . January 26 , 1981 - . unapproved - no quorum present . V . . Franklin Drive . The people from Franklin Drive spoke to T . Niederkorn about tonih 010 meeting . D . Hardie told B . Bush ghat we were working on their pro : ject and felt we were doing a good job . B . Bush said theymight turnit over to the Town Board if we weren ' t going to do , something . about it . D . Hardie felt that the Town Board looked tows for suggestions . L . Hirvonen asked if we had been given suggestions about changes they wanted . D . Hardie felt that all they wanted to -8 - Franklin Drive - continued . • do was strike out mobile homes . P . Hardie suggested to them to • form a citizen ' s committee not just for their road but for getting other people involved . No motion was made . T . Niederkorn - They asked for a copy of the letter that I sent to you with the definitions . I didn ' t see any reason for inkD . Haraseth` Ydu ' re being employed by the Planning Board and if • . they want your help they should hire you . T . Niederkorn - I telt we were working on schedule and told them that . There were many changes we were discussing . Why don ' t you send it to them? L . Hirvonen - I ' ll make a copy . H . Ley - Are the people still so upset there ? No one would dare to put a mobile home in . T . - Niederkorn . - Yes . • • T . Kick - I saw Pete Welles and asked him how come he didn ' t come along with his neighbors . He said he has been awfully ; busy . I told him I couldn ' t possibly speak for the Board , but that they should have gone after Horvath . Get someone who did something wrong . They waited too long . NextiMe.eting r March 11 , 1981 - please note change of day to Wednesday . _ . T . Niederkorn will be present . Other Meetings - Public hearing on fishing pier proposal at • Myers Park , February 10 , 1981 Adjourned : 10 : 00 P . M . • • cep • • • • • - y _ ;$