HomeMy WebLinkAbout1968-06-27 JOINT PUBLIC HEARING BY THE LANSING TOWN BOARD
AND THE LANSING PLANNING BOARD
4111 June 27 , 1968
The hearing convened at 8 : 05 p . m . , Mr . Harris Dates in the chair . He
introduced the memb �floffhthe Town Board and the Planning Board . Town Clerk
Jane Bush read the /fio ce o the hearing . The Chairman then explained the purpose
of the hearing and the procedure to be followed in conducting it . He then asked
Mr . Niederkorn , the Town Planner , to take over at this point . Mr . Niederkorn.
further explained the purpose of the meeting and the fact that he would review
the proposed regulations . He stated that the purpose of the subdivisionreguletions .
is to profice for the Town of Lansing a document by which it controls the subs'
division of land in the township. It is very difficult to change something once
it is donw ; if it is not done properly at the beginning , then the town has to live
with it , or can at its own expense make the necessary changes . ' The regulations
can also be looked at as the technique by which the community can to some extent
control its ownfuture and reduce Osnisna possible future expenses to a minimum .
Mr . Niederkorn followed this by a review of the definition of a minor subdivision ,
after which he started with page 2 of the proposed regulations and alternately
read and explained the material ;
cQ . (Roger ) Would , the leasing of a lot for a trailer be a minor , subdivision ?
A . No ; a lot that isno being sold is not a minor subdivision .
Q . The differepte between ec major and a minor subdivision is too restrictive .
. A . Yes , if you sell one lot , that . is_ a subdivision . A seller is allowed to
sell one lot at a time four times before it becomes a major subdivision .
(Referred , to 402E of the proposed regulations . ') The intent was thna -atttheroad
rules and regulations cannot be gotten 'aropnd by selling one : lot / a°t ime
over and over again and perhaps getting cutting off access . to the road from
the back of the property..
Q . Definition of "contiguous . " Can space be left between the lots ?
A . After - yea- get - epetoetheeceurtk- leermyeneean4eave . This word probably should `
be removed . And / the passage should read " ft ta be., " not " it must be " declared
a major subdivision .
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Q . (Howell ) If a person buys one lot , does he have to go through all this formality ?•
A . He comes before the Town Board just once . The person buying it doesn ' t have to
go through anything .
Q . (Roger ) In this plan for a manor subdivision , in submitting a sketck to the
Town Clerk , would the Clerk accept it ?
A . (Williamson ) A survey map has to be made by 'a duly certified surveyor . So
a sketch plan could be filed with the Town Clerk , but not filed with the County
Clerk .
Q . ( Niederkorn) What proof of title do you have if it isn ' tfiled ?
A . (Williamson) When the County Clerk gets a deed , the assessor makes up a card .
'he attorneys heop by filling out a transfer sheet . The assessor can thus
/identity it on the assessment roll and the new tax map .
• Q . (Howell ) Isn ' t it a bona fide sale until this has been fulfilled ? .
A . (Williamson ) You can ' t prevent a sale .
Q . (Howell ) If I don ' t
go through the formality , then I have violated the law ?
A • Yes , and you would be punished under the terms of the law .
i .
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Q . ( Selden) How did you arrive at one lot ?
A . The intent here is to adhere to the State Law . The Town could establish this
number or almost anything they wane _I corder to establish a positive control
the Town Board wished to review all the transactions . The law i itten
• that watt#!it , e itxiot ) nib�, fortunatikunni T (ef . la e((L *eY it .
And they ire n plcssedbt . 210 so . a ``
e)wV
1 0I ) . C
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Q . If I get 50 feet from ne 1 Oniver ity , does it have to come before the .
A . / ( N}} ����d ? ( ? ' .r. '` `_ ( c' . OJ ) 4 ( di ) C1 (OCT)
b , 0451 ersity ddesn t lithe to comply with this . They are trea as any
other municipality . ? i , : 1 .5‘';
( ff ) r. • , ,N : ( i ; '; � , a )
A . (Williamson ) Count and ow institittiona don ' t have tO omply , butt don t
know about the University, . . , , :d � ' ( . , ` 4,1 )
(Niedertorn ) Generally Cor{tell anthe community have very good relations ,
and Cornell would complyjyith a ny , regula .tions sgc., tp . `',41 • , ' )
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• Q . • On existing property that . 4 is not meet the Board of Health regulations ; th4he.
Town ? , , . . .
A . This doesn ' t have to do with . existing. properties t ' qt only with property . fel
sale . ' The . Board of Health hoe ,laws : onthe books kto deal With. violators . .
Q . Does this recognize any suhdivisions already filed ?
A . This does not affect any al lady filed . . . .
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Q . Does the Health Department, heed to approve any single resident' ? . : r
A . All must be approved . The Board ' of Health approva7 ' must be submitted, with the
plan . The Board of Health riles apply to a five - lot subdivision . Even 'At
' single residence : must get ,approval , but it i$ not quite as difficult as upder
a subdivision ,ruling . .
• • . .
Q . (Howell ) What determines the amount of fee ?
A , . - This is se.* by the Planning Board . It is arbitrary and ranges , fromnothing up
to whatever they may assign . � .
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Q . (Rowell That goes for selling only one lot ?
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A . No , the sale of one lot stops with the first step , : ..
. Q , , Section 404 says . the . minor . subdivider must pay a $ 5 fee .
A . If one lot is being sold , it may be for purposes of putting in a salvage lot
or something else unsatisfactory , to }neighbors . In these cases the Planning
Board at its option can require that a final plat be submitted . It is not
mandatory that they immediately approve . even a minor subdivision . In these
cases there : is a $ 5 fee fir filing the final plan .
At this point Mt . Niederkorn emphasized the fact that where it is impossible
for the subdivider to comply with the requirements , these can be waived .
Q . Isn ' t there a regulation that all streets must be 60 feet wide ?
A . We would have to review this . (Mr . Howell believed that 50 feet is the present
regulation . )
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Q. According to what the Planning Board tells us , there. is no _, longer any such
thing es . deed - end streets . '
. A . (Niederkorn) Believes the Town Board, has reconsidered this , and this ruling
may be changed . ' , ' '
3 .
Q . If you don ' t own the land on both sides of the road , you couldn ' t dedicate
enough to make 50 or 60 feet if the road is originally only , say , 30 feet .
A . Not if you don ' t own land on both sides of the road .
• Q . This just about puts an end to private lanes .
A . This is a case where anexception can be made . There is provision for waiver .
If it is intended to be a private road , the subdivider must so state , and then
the Town will not have to take it over . It must be stated onthe plat that it is
a private road .
Q . What about if after a while the people want a public -road ?
A . We are protected on that by the regulations . They specify that each lot must
have access to a public road .
Q . What happens to the streets in the subdivision ?
A . b illiamson ) � The planning Board wouldn ' t approve anything like this , and
banks wouldn ' t approve a house on a private land .
(Niederkorn ) If there was a lot down by the 'lake it would not be a requirement _
that this would ,conform to the .. regulation , , but that wpuld be only for a driveway , .
not a lane :
Q . There ought to be something in there that the same street bannot have two names .
A . The regulations so state .
Q . If you have a long , narrow piece ofland apd put . street through the middle
of it , ;dp you have to break it up , into' blocks as you go along ?.
A . No ; there will be many cases in which this can ' t be enforced . If you had a lot
2500 feet in area , the Board might require a 50 - foot easement eome,,here along ,..
the line ,
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Q . How would you take care of these "town houses " in connection with sewer regulations ?
A . "Town houses " are usually rented. Renting doesn ' t apply ; 01117 sale applies .
Q . Suppose someone wanted to put in a 25 - family unit on a single lot where there
is no sewer .
A . It doesn ' t apply unless you want to sell. land .
Q . Why is it that even a lot 10Qx300 Wastes the laud ?
A .
Q , Who maintains the land given by the subdivider ?
A . It is being established for park
purposes . It can be maintained by the town
or by the ' peeple living in the subdivis #.gn or there can be established a special
recreation . distribt, #or teh area in part cular a
town would be ' re�uired to 8o �ih and � � ichhe, t park is located . Then the
that would beintmaintain it . There could be an association `
ly own all ofthis .
Q . (TOM) Wou44 anybody want 40 or 30 kids screaming near
next to a ple9$ro4iud thy , if they lived right
A . 0947 the kids who live in that particular subdivision would be playing there .
Many people do want to live next playground .
Qe (Roger ) Hoe is the landed to the payment rate ?
• A , Yqu ' find out what thefront ,foot acreage is and then multiply it by 600 .
Q . How much money would the man who has ten lots have' to contribute ?
A . If valued at $ 1 a square foot , he would have to give the value of 6 , 000 aquae
feet . He would have to give the equivalent of $ 6 , 000 .
4 .
Q . So if you sold , mad you would be giving the value of three lots .
A . If you have /f5 , 000 square foot lot and you
a foot . It is directly related to the value of the500landgou are paying 10 cents
• Q . What good does it
do to give the land for a playground ?
A . It could be used by the town to buy land nearby for a general play area .
Q . Where does the money go ?
A . Into a special fund , not the general fund . It is unconstitutional if itgoes
the general fund.
• into _
Q • (Mrs . Dart . Would like t
than ¢Drt) Wo ' cdti be p , see . the wording chan$ed to ppt . it into a positive way
) 1
gfaated . "curbs , gutters , ' and ' sidewalks shall be
:'thosj , stud where- tp$ ffic is , heavy • or Where Population is ' soientrated . "
1
provided
�� A •� The , Chai�n pointed out that the makingof '
' The BSairma tst do ed o this suggestion does ' not mean that
this . (Mre ,• Dar signified ignified that she realised . this .,.) .
Q . (0040 - - Does this mean that t
A . If you are in . a subdiv cion he sewer line must run . along the street ?
• „ � � .: f , Y90 h�sye to conform tp the
9 . 7V' I .. subdivision regulations
Dora. tp@ a!�dixide� '. have; provide- •
E . i
t0 .
tho` bre to thea master ( ? ) ?. • . ® the trnnB�J li g ,pr ate�C', { ?} or ust-
A , yhe trunh• . iipea sive . pa , ,.®
rebabl ' . P the system • The subdivider ' qts
tli P ; 9 e �.11l have to:Out in the utilitieolr �' Qo d ' . e connects '
to soother #'p4d ` to0141140400s ;
f cq► wherever .0 roes
• connect the utilities ; , Every subdivider Mill ;haveta °different
. cage: . wejcaae. b, . state, now just whet it wihl - 'be for
Q . will t!#a4 , J sash sbairtzdtr . ; � :' s - .
li be put' Ln by the
A . Yea , , �it will be / � gewet , district ? . . .
� o ,.. Y, ', the !Ccs . if . the a id . toed ' , r
serves.. ;fhe ' egttre area � � ; $e 4}n las d® slid the is " lice
f •'41t • goes in :front of :your don tttave to put that in at Your total eacpenae ,
. Pe Y
+ , .ey
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`� (Howard ) , lloesa' t think the courts . would '
� • j drainage .. you. uphold the re
run o f . You : coni l:sa&to thedt inn e`onc!would �.
d to . the loge 24- P .9 ' wh9lg area : so that the drainage would run
A . if 'we ac � Pr°Pertq .�. ,.. .. .
eept .a. .road and t#a , . . - • ; , • - ._
d•itcl larger than are :. thi it won
and then somebody blacktops ;`�e . whsle acre ofproperty , � ld '�� bo' needed ,
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floods ? ., y • whose fault is It ifthe
. '(Questioner .. area
If it '. s in the -road it ' s . the . Cove ' s. ptob1em , i f i ' s np,
qr :�Q problest ,
rwb . , , umac . , � :. . r ,. r ,.,.. • t °P Property ,
it ' s the q
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Q . Doesn ' t think they could - " ' ! ' ' ` 1 " ' : ,
prevent your subdivision bec {
ease of p dopn$ tralcm problem .
ONSeldenl If you run t
but ' ou c ' 4e water out of its natural drainage areal =you ' re al'i a�,i t
3r + R . sMi e . - Sh
Dates : AllAl ]. that . •'. ' $
we are cr ins to ' 'do i is to 'maBt
what is needed , do 2 ,7 : inti s : ' O' a the ct q z f be io _if t4at ,is
. : . , the P °tech of theca ,
p mandhtory . td : plant the tree ? . " - � '. •
d ,
x �, ,.. R- It may be this is superfluous . The whole ordinance is a suggestion,Are you sarin$ Youcre teliin8 the proug8estion,
sh `his property.? ' a . ', `. IT property owner how he must or must not
• 4 • , Ke ° re not telling him how ; we ere. ‘� � •
each lot if there is not o erg he must shrub it . Hp east puha tree on
one there .
Q . (Selden) Is that a
A . It ' s a guarantee • perforseance bond ? ,
50
Q . Are two- inch trees standard ?
A . They ' are a caliber not too expensive to put in , and big enough so you won ' t rum
over them with a lawn mower .
• Q . What court is that ?
A . Supreme Court ;
Q , flow are ' they going to determine what are "existing subdivisions " ?,
_ A . Anflhing on file by the time' the ordinances passed are existing subdivisions .
I :\ Perhaps `ft should be defined re . If it is a subdividipn that has been started
but not completed , th' a arming Board can consider that p$rwhich his been
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t"completed in accordance with the new ordinances . �;4mc Bgard . ca not touch the
5g•� 1pts�'4'tt$edy filed , Mit b�hly the ones oa liked :' '
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41 The Chairman called for statements or requests for clarification . • Theprocedure
was ' ekptaiiia4 by Mt . Williamson : The Town Board could "refer a OM it back- to the
Planning Board and ask fimmeiwm _ that the suggested changes be reviewed , based
on the anigest one ' mdge bt this ° 4►eeting . : Then the Planning Board will refer.--it to .
• . the Town A940 , , If the chenges . were other than Minor changes it would be necessary_ .
' to holy' another_; pubttp ' hearifg . ' 'A# ter . that , if MOirma . there Were no major changes.
the TflygJ 1 d.'could. .': .4OFrt` fit. and ' it _4bI4 . he r' .b pwa:,. ; t vat - The.;. � of
the .hid ' i�ie is *lfo` . gee( ISli4ghdtion$ an4 then rote* thel . 3ublielitiee tint ' iote
on ails ,. Imo , tbet ;TO n !Ord •:dees4 , The Law requiresIthat : rthe4oralUencet;$411f$ t*be
effectlye ;': wntil adoptedx ,by • the ; To�gn .. Bo04 Tr. '. . , 1117 17 ,t; .' • • RC i ' . . ' Lt .
. , /
;rQ . I , a_ , $, $aarmet : aeliB , o# . four qtp.. aE14d . - sos#ebodyA tier wa�nter. .,tocbuy .an --:add #l�ignal . . -I ' ,
'ten . ,acres , is 9Ch$ t otte more lot ? , , ,
A . If he ' Wenta- tb ' bhy. Yb acres , you ' wouid°, bring it to the ?lsnning . Boa1d . . . Their con,-
• v veyanee :Mnat' co&eto the Planning Board unless . it -!. e for ' the 'eat s area . Even
if W fot ' i I gatden' of agricultt e .
Q , (Roger ) Any time you sell /any part of, your farm you must come before the Plann$ng
Board . e 6,/ . n i e .r :u f I E i .{. a ; CI s . . ' s . . i 1, 1 ' . , • ii I . : .‘ vL. .
A . Yes , , that ' s true . , J 7 . - . , f Iw . i ;
Q . #0W often ' .will you tellowe- .aeet ? ciE : . ' ' , . r f . 1• f1. ,_ , ;MI
A . - Yoia . could hapole 25 or 5Q at one . sitting .
Q , What is the minimpm amount of time.: that a ; amaior :developer can get approva } from the
time he dreams it up unUt , :h, ;ta %arte - se !Ling . . lots ? c v • , ,.; ;z: : : ri r. •' }-
;. A* t, L, 1Ie< Bgarti , •$I,ban . ass t' . It ip ten dere . .Then liter iht9 4ubmitrertt> *ttch the
Board must ( following a pµblic heariag ' within thirty daya ) actfthin 45 days .
The Boraard must act thii 75 days, . sfter. :. receiptfog the - 1444 plawo The total
is 12Q days 0 • . ;.. 4. . .. • : ,.u.:
, I • . '..i• 1 . • I • :r I.r
go , Suppose he brought in a 4441 000 - . L ; :'. - ; , s : ; z, . .
# , We would he flee to ; aubaait a . . pre4 44ry ,-Pkat : '4041,0410 ( h0 ragnined : to csai it
a p;0444sery anduq tial Plot : , r 'coultd hevf = the galog subdiyieior approved
kr; ; tbie . same ; n$ght a9d ' atatt roads , 0444;48 . etceu"r rt '; : •
i! Q . (11401e0(11401e0Don ' t yoy} thin$ it would be a good idea to include the Board of Health 1
'
L -,$niauum requirement f?? 4and , .where they don ' t require a health plan ?
jA `
-I ; Mind : be 4O014404 end • pt.�t •'il as an append ix , ;
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We hall an ad hoc committee of 'a ; Bosrtcd ' 01 Health that agreed on this a cquple
of years ago and it would be helpf4 to -the developer to spell this ou} . \ \
A . This . could be done . 'r . 1 `
} ,. „„ A
6 .
• 1°he remark was also vada that a 1
consulted for a wort awys mould find this out as soon as he would b®
bags .
Fisher : You don ' t have to submit a lot plan for an acre lot to the Board of Health .
It the lots are big enough you tan sell
es A . Can be included , but the Board of Healthstillhas es tonapp p
• approve the septic system .
° Q . Is it required to heye a let
t A . ire Sr. a lot of other
legal .
h points that do this , but no one in this area . It Is
---------1/4,...___ ,......„..._
Sugpoted a visor subdividion should be allowed to have f ? elf
g As to landscaping , he dogs not believe it is proper for any o�tf ° !
the landscaping os a lot . y ordinance to prescribe
of hand It could resat* , but Aot prescribe . , On all transfer
1 I come where
the
intention is not to be subdivided at the tine ' of transfer should )
Board . A transfer of undevelopedorI
mot have to come before the Board if the use is nottobe Chang d . purposes should
buyer could came before the bed • The �
beads 1burdensome . Planning Board later on . As the ordinance now
u ensome . If it was known that it vas
the thee of sats , that would be one thi going to be a subdivision a
mmg ; but not , ottierwiae .
( LawyerIONSalsnanengnimIng
from the cit b Farmers ate acquiring more land and lett
y uy the house . They want to do this in 24 hour . lmm8 someone
is !►sold be token as a suggestion . s The n sa d
ager : The diatitign is so
Hoge no The di to se ever smell between a minor and a mo e e Planning Bthat . )�
page 3 , Aroviaioaor ole lot seise before the Planning Board .
1� • age 3 , s spelled requiring a final plat is too strict,
�� veil o pe d out the minimum requirements for lots . to etarto i pith .
parcel of land , the buyer has to b that these
quires to
exist . But to require everyone ��!� aware that these reqw,reysnts
defeat the purpose of the rd9 to come in , especially in sales ®f Eurus loe4 , would
111,
Conlon : say that * person has a house and an extra lot l
parcel . Men! times 709 can 'sell this h �0ilcbSc , It may be in one
b cel . Men! tines
this el off , and keep the lot ,
9; ropos but in hes o Elinor subdivision . . TJp►ver this set
do ' not apply .
Peels , ' 'lander that situation the seebdivi i n you regulatioe the ns
A . That is Correct .
Q . Giller
If you could say that there is to be no c
Nie ; does *his satisfy the questions being asked ? haute in the land we by the
Moser) : Not eatirgiy .
o Isle , s ? thinking is that the impo tentthi ,
e , has the Poing ef . deyel9 nt ng hers i# nqt the point
it ,; then .be should Cain in . IPE . So as soon O rho an logits to develo
should e . be the point of Bale ;rem;remA to B , but j
the point at which B hellos to develop
the the property . i
• $h�crs :
This is just. stet e
Pot 0c roads . � 11se , °P hove argued shout . You coo soli that
Q you can sell four ' lot But Plt lot You
dcn . t !►fat to be burdened with every transfer / ire , do ' You drew the line ' You
ly
> can woil thaw in and we ' ll rail
theeiRoger : rou caf control it elms the liana of no roads be
. � 4Reqlgphd .
dere • TMt ' a �h 1�e holm ,
.inor � i divided i tete 4
s.. div>� < ;i,jor and
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7 .
• " Roger : I don ' t think you can control transfer of real estate . The seller should/faove
it to justify the sale . Too much burden is bing put on the seller .
Statement : A good job well done .
GI
The Chairman stated that he has been contacted by two lending institutions which said
that they approve . of the basic ideas of the overall
He thanked the portion of the proposed regulations . .
people who had come Out to this meeting end given their .suggestions /
for ' thebenefit of the Town Board and the Plain i
go over this . If any major changes are made , t $oar& They will take Circe to
here will be another public hearing .
The Chairman adjourned the meeting at 10 : 10 pan .
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4111
• Minutes
LANSING PLANNING BOARD
June 27 , 1968 : Town Hall
Executive Session
Present : Mr . Showacre , Chairman ; Mrs . Viola Miller ; Messrs . Cima , Edmondson ,
Ruzicka
This meeting was convened at 10 : 20 p .m . , immediately following the
adjournment of the Joint Public Hearing by the Lansing Town Board and the
Lansing Planning Board . The Chairman stated that the recommendations and sug -
gestions made during the hearing would be considered and thenssent to the Town
Board .
Moved by Mr . Edmondson , seconded by Mrs . Miller , that the statements
and suggestions be transcribed and distributed to the members of the Board
and to Mr . Niederkorn, and action will evolve from this at the next meeting of
the Planning Board . This was unanimously carried .
• It is hoped that Mr . Niederkorn can handle this by the next meeting ,
which will be on July 8 .
The meeting adjourned at 10 : 25 p .m .
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