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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1967-05-24 Minutes LANSING PLANNING BOARD May 24 , 1967 Special meeting • PRESENT : James Showacre , Chairman ; Mrs . Viola Miller . Messrs . Paul Barron , Alex Cima , Frederick Edmondson , John Ettinger , Herbert Ley Also attending : Mr . Arthur Reed , of Syracuse , New York (prospective planner) The meeting was called to order by the Chairman at 8 : 15 p . m . Presentation by Mr . Arthur Reed Mr . Reed presented his personal qualifications , education , and previous positions . Among the communities he has worked in are the following : DeWitt , Lysander , Camillus , Baldwinsville , Ontario County , Village of Webster , the Town and Village of Ticonderoga , and suburban renewal in Syracuse . It has been his experience that those communities which have a tendency to finance the improvements directly rather than by state or federal • aid have also a tendency to continue with the use of the planning board and technical services , with the planning board to help them make their decisions . Mr . Reed does not keep a large staff employed . He has observed large firms which subsidize planning , but his office is only for planning . He uses outside help for drafting , economic studies , fiscal studies , but writes ordinances himself , makes the land use studies himself because he feels that that is the way to learn all about the territory . He has a branch office in Erie , Pennsylvania , where a substantial work pro- gram has been under way . There have been a good many sewer and water studies in farming communities . He has also been working under 701 operations in the Erie area . Is working now in the Carthage complex (six communities in the Carthage area) , but this work will terminate in the fall of 1967 . He is in the final stages of the study in the Town of Ontario , and just beginning one in the Town of Elbridge and the Village of Georgia . There are also four communities which he serves on a con- sultation basis . Salina and Liverpool have voted not to go ahead with their programs . He could work on the Lansing Town program after fall of this year . He is working on water plans for three counties in Pennsylvania and several in Ohio . • Question 1 Answered Question 2 Answered Minutes , LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 24 , 1967 , Special meeting Page 2 • Question 3 What are the basic planning studies that you ( the Consultant ) feel this town ( Lansing) must take ? The normal ones . However , very often the state puts things into the scope which the town may not need , but which the planner must supply . Showacre What is the extent of the study of agriculture in 701 ? Reed Has had some experience lately in the Town of Ontario in determining the amount of orchard land versus farm land , fallow land , etc . , and the effect of fruit farming on the economy of the community . In the determination of natural resources he does not present a soil map of the usual kind , but one which shows what land is good for residential purposes , or for agricultural purposes , etc . ; even a layman can inter - pret such a map . He has not seen a 701 program which goes beyond this . Growth of the community should be guided by the availability of utilities . A zoning ordinance can prevent the clustering of houses . Question 4 How much can a Town expect to spend on a plan ? How much of a Town s annual budget should be spent on planning ? Estimates $ 20 , 000 more or less . Question 5 Answered . • Question 6 Will you employ consultants ? Who ? And for what aspects of the work ? ; For fiscal analysis , Paul Byers ; for population analysis Dr . George Myers ; for economic base studies , Barclay Jones ; engineers , a Rochester firm. Question 7 Who on your staff will direct the Lansing project ? How much time will be spent in Lansing ? He himself would be the principal for the Lansing program . Question 8 How much time will be needed ? Twenty- four months , starting in September or October . Question 9 Fee ? Difficult to say . Question 10 What must a Town do on its own , and over a long period of time to implement and achieve a Plan ? Members of the Board have many and varied responsibilities ; should attend meetings and take an interest in what is going on , and become • familiar with the jargon so that if necessary they can present the various matters to townspeople and neighbors , members of churches and service organizations . All of this tends to play down the uproar which a zoning ordinance causes . In DeWitt the wording was developed to their satisfaction , and then the Board met with everybody who could Minutes , LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 24 , 1967 , Special meeting Page 3 • possibly have an objection . After this the comments were analyzed and this was followed by a series of about six meetings held throughout the Town . The matters were explained , and after that the Planning Board could recommend the program to the Town . Patience and keeping after the matter will eventually break down the resistance . It ' s a long , hard row to hoe . You may have attorneys who have had experience with and know as much about zoning laws as the Planner . There never seems to be too much opposition to subdivision regulations . Good legal advice is needed on how to carry them through and enforce them . Mr . Reed left at 9 : 25 p .m . The members of the Board then discussed their evaluations of the three professional planners who had been interviewed . Edmondson MOTION , duly seconded , that Egner & Niederkorn be awarded the contract . Edmondson They can do the job and do it well , and they are here and it is a "natural . " The other oto can do a good job also , but we have certain local advantages by having these two local men . I have never known them to make enemies . • Miller My only objection to Mr . Niederkorn is that to me he does not seem to relate to people as closely as I wish someone working in Lansing would do . It worries me profoundly to think of his going out to face a group of people in Lansing . Could he relate to them ? If we are going to get the plan accepted this is one of the most important questions . Edmondson I can tell you in confidence that when Egner and Niederkorn drove back that night they talked about this , and when I saw Egner the next day he mentioned that they had not expressed themselves as earnestly that evening we interviewed them as they should have . Miller This is the thing I would not want them to do before a group of Lansing people . Edmondson When these men are with trustees they know how to talk to them . Tom is earnest , quiet , and sure of himself . He is not a salesman and would not go out of his way to be more than that . Showacre Which of the three could be hurt the most if they did not produce ; if people became sour against them ? The people in Syracuse ? It wouldn ' t make too much difference , but to Egner & Niederkorn it would make a tremendous difference . Edmondson My one concern is that the planner we get pay equal attention to the agricultural interests , and not let the farmers think that we are isolating them . • Barron Ray is too enthusiastic , and thinks his way is the only one . He fails many times to consider the people who were before him and the people after him . I am not saying that he is wrong , but am just pointing out Minutes , LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 24 , 1967 , Special meeting Page 4 the disadvantages . He comes from a government - regulated country (Norway ) , 0111 which has a socialistic government . You can ' t get enough farmers to come to one meeting to be able to find out their interests . Ettinger My interest in the planner is that he shows consideration to our agri - cultural section and that they are represented in our planning , and not ignored . Showacre In the past I have looked at the overall scheme of things and anticipated a person who knows the region and has to produce because he lives here . I anticipated that from the work he has done in the past there may be some weakness in the agricultural area , and also anticipated the use of volunteers in the six-month interval , that maybe to some superficial extent run a rather complete basic study of our own as an introduction to what the planner is faced with ; and anticipating this I talked to Ernie Cole and asked him what we might do to emphasize the agricultural end of it by bringing in Dryden and Groton , and then suggested that Pete and Herb talk with him and outline some problems so that this study could be presented to the Planning Council group to emphasize that this is a real need . I personally would lean toward Egner & Niederkorn . I personally can work with Tom . Barron The important thing is which one of the three will relate with people , rather than with the Town as a whole . Cima I lean towards Tom Niederkorn . I have seen him in open discussions and • he knows Lansing and its problems . I also saw him when he was being humiliated at an open meeting , when he was being attacked , and he was cool and smiling . I think he could do the job . Miller I go along with all of this . We all have to face the fact that we can ' t possibly satisfy everyone . I think that as far as working with the farmers in this area , they are not different from anyone else , in that it takes a group with some inagination and determination to carry it through ; and you can ' t expect everyone to agree , Ley I agree in general . Cima Niederkorn has put a lot of time into this Town . Showacre This will not end the work of the Planning Board by any means , to select a planner . We hire someone , but we must assume equal responsibility and everybody must have tremendous effort to put into this work . Barron They are going to have a tiger by the tail when they get hold of this . Ettinger Isn ' t it the work of the Planning Board to write the plan with the planner ? He does the writing , but the Board does a great deal of the work . Edmondson There will be a great deal of work and constant meetings . • The Chairman then took a roll call vote on the motion , as follows : Minutes . LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 24 , 1967 , Special meeting Page 5 • Barron yes Cima yes Edmondson yes Ettinger yes Ley yes M'. iler yes Sbowacre yes Thanks are to be expressed to the other two planners for coming down for interviews . Mr . Edmondson will write the letters . Members of the Board expressed to Nr . Edmondson their gratitude for the caliber of the prospective planners he had brought before them , Ettinger Worked on this with the highway superintendent and the DEAD END chairman of the Planning Board . Mr . Sharpsteen has approved this . ORDINANCE DEAD- ENDS RESOLVED : That roads , streets or thoroughfares in the Town of Lansing shall be allowed to terminate without exit to another existing road , street or thoroughfare if they are constructed according to one of the following : 11111 1 . Permanent Dead -End Roads - Must end with a circle meeting the following specifications ; Minimum Radius of a center mall shall be 50 feet with a 60- foot right - of-way , making an outside diameter of 220 feet . They shall be a minimum of 600 feet and they shall not exceed 1100 feet in length from the center of the intersection leading into the dead - end to the center of the dead - end circle . Construction , including drainage of mall , ditching and seeding must meet specifications as set forth by the Town Highway Superintendent . 2 . Temporary Dead - End Roads - May end in a T design meeting the following specifications ; Each wing of the T must be a minimum of 60 feet from the center of the main road with a 60- foot right - of-way for each wing . They shall not be less than 600 feet nor more than 1300 feet in length from the center of the intersection leading into the dead - end to the center of the top of the T . Construc - tion , including drainage , ditching and seeding , must meet specifications as set forth by the Town Highway Superintendent . BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED : That no temporary dead - end road shall terminate without an easement to adjoining properties , for the • purpose of continuing the terminated road or street to an ex- isting road , street or thoroughfare . BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED : That the determination of whether the termination of a road , street or thoroughfare will be a permanent Minutes , LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 24 , 1967 , Special meeting Page 6 • or temporary dead - end shall be made by the agent of the Town having this authority . Edmondson We don ' t have to submit this just because they asked for it . This should be ma=de a part of the cuhdivisic;n regu- lations . Tom Nieder'kern will go to work immediately on this for us . Ettinger Explained the necessity for the ordinance - to ease a builder ' s problem conc2rned with this :Tatter , Edmondson Agreed that this changed the situation ,, Ettinger MOTION ( seconded by Mr . Ley) : That the dead - end regula- tion be accepted as written , and presented to the Town Board . The Chairman took a roll call vote , as follows : Showacre yes Miller yes Ley yes Ettinger yes Edmondson --estir- • Cima yes Barron yes MOTION , seconded , that the meeting adjourn , at 10 : 45 p .m. • Discussion of planner interview ; May 24 , 1967 FOR INTERNAL USE ONLY • Edmondson Reed has performed a very good job . He is a charming and persuasive man , and very capable in the planning field . He has very few limita- tions . Tends to work out of his own hat , which is a very interesting way to work , instead of building up a large staff . He hires very good consultants . His background was initially urban work , city planning , urban renewal ; but in the last five years he has been doing a great deal of town and 701 work , which qualifies him well . Vatet has done a • mass of towns and private work , whereas Reed has worked in various strata of government work . Had given him some background on the Lansing situation , and he is willing to work with this situation . He does not feel that volunteers are going to interfere with his work ; in fact , this kind of help would be needed at some stage of the work . He would have to make his own check in order to make a preliminary plan . These people have to go around on the land and check it for land use ; he would have to recheck any population study made by volunteers . Any good planner may make mistakes , but they will insist on checking as closely as they can . In the case of a population study there might be one or two or three individuals in the community who could do this without faults . A projection must be made from a base figure , but it is not limited to only the area itself , and includes many factors . The difference in costs does not make much actual difference , because the Town pays only one - sixth . The highest priced would be the Vatet organization , which has the highest capabilities in organization per- il sonnel and the greatest amount of accomplished work in the State . Vatet has greater efficiency of production and abilities and skills involved , and more flexibility . Showacre On the other hand , a large firm has the additional overhead in "make - work " in slack periods , so Reed is not paying for "make -work " in slack time . Edmondson Egner & Niederkorn are perfectly capable and have done a lot of work . I would have no qualms about their work . Miller I have no question about their capabilities , but the one thing is that with a town like Lansing , the fresh aspect of people from outside and with more experience in more areas might get an answer better than someone who is right here . Edmondson You might be right . The only prejudice in the case of Niederkorn is that he has been here so long and has worked so hard for relatively little progress in the Town and City of Ithaca , that this might be a factor . Miller It seemed to me that he had his mind made up ahead of time . Edmondson He came into this area with an open mind almost ten years ago , and so by now he has made some decisions . • Ettinger Is he still as open minded ? Edmondson It could be that he has made up his mind about some things . This is a very good point . INTERNAL USE ONLY 5 / 24 / 67 2 . • Miller I would just wonder whether our people in the Town here who have to work with him might think they already knew what should be done . Edmondson This is balanced by the thought that he has greater accessibility and is right on the scene . Ettinger I like the aspect of the man being right on the job , and for that reason think that Niederkorn or Reed would be preferable . Niederkorn has things that I can ' t overlook - he is in Ithaca and can ' t duck you ; he has to live here , and maybe this is something to think about . This is the one strong thing that I have for Niederkorn . I was impressed with Reed . Vatet would be responsible for the job , but would not be the one doing it . This community is so split that it almost requires that someone live here for a year . Cima Almost all communities are like that . Showacre We have to consider the Town of Ithaca , the City of Ithaca , Dryden , and Cayuga County . We have inter- related problems , and all are somewhat associated with the southern part of the Town . Niederkorn may have a little more experience in this inter- relationship , which could be of great value to the Town of Lansing . Miller One thing that has been bothering me is that there are very real prob- lems in the southern part of the Town , and Mr . Niederkorn has pointed • this out ; but it is just as important what is done in the northern part , and I think this is too easy to overlook ; but I am not sure we can do anything soon enough , and the planner should think in terms of all parts of the Town . Showacre Anyone who walks around would see all of the problems . Miller Vatet had noticed quite a few problems in the northern part also . Showacre Drogin also outlined a few problems in the northern part . He spent all day going through Lansing before he met with us in the evening . I don ' t believe any planner is going to dictate what is to be done . If the Planning Board is on the job , they will know what some of these problems are , and will have to give same direction ; and as a result there will have to be a meeting of the minds . This Board needs to be a representation of the whole Town . Barron Can Mr . Edmondson give us any incidents of towns that have had a plan and then abandoned it ? Edmondson Even cities have done this . One of the most successful cities in terms of increased land values is Houston , which has no zoning ordinance and is a classic example of a city under growth conditions but with some enlightened government which has been successful in producing tremendous gains without zoning ordinances . • Denver voted out a planning format . They are , however , beginning to lose industries . You could go through a thousand examples of success or failure in this , but in the State of New York you could probably find twenty where towns such as ours have profited by planning first and then implementing the improvements . INTERNAL USE ONLY 5 / 24 /67 3 . Barron How was the profit incurred ? Edmondson It is accrued through grant aid , which permits the town to grow with federal and State participation . The most important part of it is that land values increase ; residential areas , agricultural and industrial areas as well . This is not reflected immediately , but over a genera- tion . Failures are very obvious . County planning is also coming up in Cayuga and Chewing Counties . There is a possibility that it might happen here . But we can ' t wait for that , and must move rapidly on the Town operation and then move into the county . 410 •