Press Alt + R to read the document text or Alt + P to download or print.

No preview available

The URL can be used to link to this page

Home My WebLink About1967-05-22 Minutes LANSING PLANNING BOARD May 22 , 1967 : Town Hall • Regular Meeting PRESENT : James Showacre , Chairman ; Mrs . Viola Miller ; Messrs . Paul Barron , Frederick Edmondson , John Ettinger , Herbert Ley ABSENT : Mr . Alex Cima Also attending : Mr . John Vatet , Planning Director , Sargent -Webster - Crenshaw & Folley , Syracuse , New York Ray Arson until 9 : 25 p . m . The meeting was called to order by the Chairman at 8 : 15 p . m . Minutes of the meeting of May 8 were approved after the following corrections were made : page 3 , last paragraph , delete the amount of the investment ; page 4 , fourth paragraph , the name should be " Bair " rather than as shown ; page 5 , under DEAD - END REGULATION , the word "not " should be inserted between the words "has " and "committed . " Edmondson Announced that the Board of Supervisors was also holding a planning meeting , but that Mr . Dates had not informed this Board of the • meeting until after the plans for this meeting of the Lansing Planning Board had been made . The Town Board might logically change its mind about a Town Planning Board if a movement to develop county planning evolved . The Planning Board ought to consider such a possibility . Mr . Showacre is to obtain a report from Mr . James Lee on this matter. At this point the Board proceeded to interview Mr . Vatet . The Chair - man turned the meeting over to Mr . Edmondson , who conducted the inter - view . Vatet Could not present the slides he had tried to have ready for this meeting , but will show them at a later date if the Board wishes to see them . Had covered the Town , and photographed many good things and many bad aspects . He himself lived in the Town of Lansing in 1947 . The pictures show contrasting things , such as the differences in Graham Road because of the lack of zoning . There is a lot of sporadic subdivisioning here and there in a large part of the Town . Also there are juxtapositions of non -related land use . These elements are aspects which could become much worse if not caught very soon . There is always a tremendous variety in the kinds of problems existing in the Town . The Town will have to learn to live with trailers . Taggin Wagon is an example of an excellent trailer court . The answer to the trailer • problem is not to ban trailers but to set up sensible regulations . Can see no objections to trailers in farming areas , provided the same regulations are applied as to other one - family housing units . The problem here is one which is usual in rural communities - - a great Minutes , LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 22 , 1967 ; Town Hall , Regular Meeting , page 2 • deal of resistance to regulations until it is too late . Norwich is an example , and Lake Luzerne . The problem is not what to do , because you can come up with sensible laws and plans ; but in a area which is in transition from rural to urban , the problem is to get planning ac - cepted before it is too late . This is a very difficult thing , and something in the minds of the people in the town which must be over - come . Sometimes people have to see the problems before they are willing to see them solved . The problem resolves itself down to some one person in the form of a building inspector saying what can be done and what cannot be done . The federal government will not accept planning unless there is effective legislation . Edmondson Are you telling us that without a zoning ordinance there will be no 701 grants ? Vatet The progress report which must be initially submitted to the federal government must be resubmitted every year . This covers seven specific elements of community activity . One of these is the comprehensive plan of the program , which consists of a specific set of basic steps , of which zoning ordinances is a part . The first submittal has several pages covering these elements , and the questions must be answered yes or no . If the answer is yes , they want to know when it was adopted , and the particulars . Then you are also asked to schedule actions in - tended for the following year . So when they come back to the re - certification they compare what you have done with what you said you • were going to do . If there is a good comparison they continue the certification . If not , they may refuse to certify . There are a number of federal programs for which the State certification or recerti - fication of a local program is necessary . These involve grants from the federal government . All of these federal programs are insome way or other tied to each other , and a comprehensive community plan is a keystone to the whole business . If you are going to engage in com - prehensive community planning , it is well to consider from the start that this is going to involve enforcement . Plans without acquisition of the land for the realization of the plans actually accomplish nothing . The plans which have gone furthest and accomplished the most are those in which the townspeople were the most involved . The worst were where there was friction . The town board should be fairly well aware of what the planning board is doing . Edmondson Asked Mr . Vatet about his background as a planner , and what he has Question 1 done in Pennsylvania and New York State along planning lines . Vatet Is a graduate of Cornell and took his degree in Architecture in 1936 . Worked in public housing in Washington for about three years . Was in the Air Force for a while , returning to Cornell in 1947 to do graduate work . Then worked in 1953 - 54 with a planning firm which is no longer in existence , and also with Donald Belcher . Subsequently he went to Pennsylvania , and worked for Russell Black until 1960 ; then to Kentucky , where he was a city planner for several years . Then returned to this area in March of 1963 , to become Planning Director for Sargent - • Webster -Crenshaw & Folley , where he has been ever since . He has ex - ecuted 701 work all over the State of New York , some of the places being Dunkirk (a community project in the ) Thousand Islands , Delhi , six towns in Niagara County , Caledonia , Lyman , Sullivan County , four Minutes , LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 22 , 1967 ; Town Hall , Regular Meeting , page 3 • towns and three counties in Dutchess County , three towns and three villages in Northeast Wayne County , Luzerne , a village in Otsego County - in fact , their work is mostly in towns in New York State , and they have worked in communities from Plattsburgh to Sullivan County , and from Hudson to Dunkirk . Question 2 Have any important physical developments resulted in any of the towns as a result of your planning work ? One in the process now involves the Dunkirk -Fredonia region , where the connecting link between the two villages is overcrowded and becoming more so all the time . There was only one way to get to the thruway and that was through a plaza . It was found out that the Niagara Power Com- pany was planning to move one of its rights of way and its power line . The community is now going to get part of the right of way for a thorough - fare . In the case of Fallsburg , in Sullivan County , this town realized that recreation is their business , and they are spending a good deal of money to support their hotel business . They acquired a park ; they were able to get the grant because the acquisition of a park was in progress . In Cohoes they feel they can relocate the main road so that it can be tied into the main net instead of its being off on a dead end . • Question 3 What are the basic planning studies that you ( the Consultant ) feel this town (Lansing ) must take ? We never go into a community and program asking that the planning board members do any of our work . If they want to do the work , that is another matter . We ask that the planning board members very critically review the work and read the reports and criticize them , so that at the end when there is a summary of the report there has been a counter - check all the way through . Any work done by the planning board would have to be rechecked by us . The only way to do a job is to get out and do it yourself , and the requirements of the government are specific as to how these things must be presented . Any work the planning board would do we must check , and you must check us . Question 4 How much can a town expect to spend on a plan ? How much of a town ' s annual budget should be spent on planning ? Between $ 5 , 000 and $ 6 , 000 . This is a hard question to answer before you can put together a program . But there is nothing extraordinary about the Lansing program . Question 5 How large is your office ? How many men will work on the Lansing Project ? luestion 6 Will you employ consultants ? Who ? And for what aspects of the work ? We would like the job on our terms . We are an AEP firm employing 225 , most of whom are architects and engineers . The planning staff runs • from 10 to 20 . We have a sort of unofficial agreement with a con- sultant group in Syracuse to do population work , economic work , and fiscal work . We have used them as our consultants for years . We would be willing to employ other eonsul. tantR . but would rather -have our own . Ainutes , LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 22 , 1967 ; Town Hall , Regular Meeting , page 4 • Question 7 Who on your staff will direct the (Lansing ) project ? How much time will be spent in Lansing ? No matter who directs the project , dr . Vatet would be doing a great deal of the work himself . He is involved in most of the projects they are engaged in now . If Lansing were to start tomorrow , probably the director would be John Felt . Question 8 How much time will be needed ? From 1963 through the latter part of 1965 there was about four to six months ' time between the selection of a planner and the authorization of costs . Then things froze up and for a period of at least a year and a half there were no project approvals at all . Then the objections be - came very loud and there were many systems of priorities that were put forward , and in the end the clamor became so loud at the local level that they put them all through . Miller What would be the difference in time necessary to finish the work if we were to select a plan not on 701 ? Vatet You could start the work tomorrow . On the conclusion of the work there would be some saving in time , but not a terribly significant saving . One of the things that we help a community to do is to meet with a con - sultant a good many times over 24 months . If you wanted to accelerate the program you could meet twice a month . But no matter what the • planning board does , you have the problem of acceptance by the community , and that has to go slowly . I have found that the best way to get to people on a local level on a local issue is in face - to - face meetings . People as a rule do not read very much , so you can ' t get too far by publicity ; but meetings in which the public is invited to talk to the planning board or the consultant are more effective . Certain parts of the program seem to be more important to the public , and we discuss them at community public meetings three or four times during the program . In Delhi we had a two -day open house where we displayed plans , etc . This is a way of getting personal reaction , which , although it may be antagonistic , is sometimes better than no reaction at all . Showacre Are you working with any group outside of 701 ? Vatet In the recent past we worked out of 701 , three or four years ago , but fewer and fewer communities have wanted to go non - 701 until the freeze occurred ; but very few can afford to do this . fluestion 9 Fee ? Difficult to give a firm figure . Cur fees are now based on what it has cost to do the work , plus a factor of 4% . Edmondson Time plus two and a half times principal ' s fee ? • Vatet Time plus 2 . 75 takes care of everything , including the principal ' s fee . The labor ratio works out about 2 . 4 . Question 10 Passed . Minutes , LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 22 , 1967 ; Town Hall , Regular Meeting , page 5 4111 Ettinger Xf you did our project , how many people would you have working at it ? Vatet It would vary from time to time . There would always be a principal planner and always part of the office staff in Syracuse . From time to time economics people would be here in the field . In the Dutchess County project we have had three people over there in the last week . Ettinger Would the principal have other projects , or would this be his only one ? Vatet Usually the person has three or four projects of this size . This is the average workload , and this is the workload approved by the State . No person would be fully employed on only one job of this size . We give our people enough jobs so that they always have work to do of one kind or another in the various projects . Ettinger If 701 money became available in two or three months , would your firm be able to start at once ? Vatet Yes . Miller Does one of the employees stay here , so that he gets to know many people ? Vatet We do a great deal of field work , and talk to many people in the com- munity , and so get to know them . Nobody would be living here , but • there would be constant contact . Showacre Would you require office space in the Town ? Vatet Only for field work , to park a few work maps or come in out of the rain . The Town Clerk ' s office , or something like that , would be suf - ficient . This has never been a problem . Showacre What about the requirement that the town supply you with space ? Vatet In the list of questions that goes in on the application this is one of the questions , and we always say that a satisfactory arrangement has been made . There has been no case where there has been any expense to the town or any issue . Ettinger Of the 701 projects which you have done , have the majority of them been accepted , or have they been put on the shelf ? Vatet So far as zoning is concerned , usually there is a lag . Sometimes there is a lag of a year or a year and a half between the approval and the public hearings . One of the things that is a prerequisite for the suc - cess of a planning project is handling one nagging individual who keeps after the project and the people . In Fallsburg they have such an in- dividual and that is why their plan will be a success . In Pomfret there is another such individual . • Miller Have you ever had the experience of going into a town where there was a negative feeling and the people had become enthusiastic later about the project because of your work ? Vatet Fallsburg and Lockport are that way . Minutes , LANSING PLANNING' BOARD , May 22 , 1967 ; Town Hall , Regular Meeting , page 6 Miller Does this take diligence on the part of the planning board to get the people involved in it ? Vatet I think so , but can ' t guarantee it . Ettinger Thinks the climate can be changed . Vatet Agreed with this . Said he would leave a number of copies of preliminary reports they have made in the past on various projects , as well as a capital budget for one of the projects they have been working on . Showacre The Planning Board has generated some activity in planning interest in basic studies , etc . , among a larger group than just the Planning Board , and one of the problems is to create interest in the Town . This can also be quite a problem of timing , in that you build the town up ready for something , and then perhaps a lag of a year or more occurs before anything is done , because of lack of funds , etc . This is of some con- cern to the Planning Board . Vatet One thing to remember is that planning is not a one - shot proposition . You have to work at it all the time . It keeps getting out of date and must be kept in progress all the time . Showacre At the same time it may not be wise to try to initiate steps on a vol - untary basis that will be duplicated later , or initiate something that 4111 the volunteers may put up some clamor to continue ; then you get to the point of almost no return . If it comes to the point where you have local professional people volunteering to perform basic studies , then these people want to see what is being done ; somewhere along the way the professional planner is going to step into the picture , and it is a matter of timing as to whether you will slow these peopld down . Or do you allow them to proceed and then the professional backs up somewhere along the way and starts over again ? Do you proceed with subdivision ordinances ? Vatet You could proceed with anything that does not discriminate . If you want to enact subdivision regulations now , if they apply evenly , that is satisfactory . The same thing is true of a trailer ordinance . It is not wise to deal with value judgments ; but so long as you apply con- trol equally throughout the town it is satisfactory . If you do get into 701 and are accepted , you have to have subdivision plat control power . We always start in with subdivision regulations . You need to have a trailer ordinance , subdivision regulations , and junk enforcement . Mr . Vatet left at 10 : 05 p .m . Mr . Arthur Reed is to appear before this Board on Wednesday evening , • May 24 , 1967 . Ley Seymour Smidt has informed him that the Council is working PLANNING on base maps , and will be at this work Tuesday or Wednesday night . COUNCIL Minutes , LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 22 , 1967 ; Town Hall , Regular Meeting , page 7 • Showacre Had talked with him this evening , and he wants to meet with a group of those who know the people in the Town , because he wants resource people who can head up various study teams . The Council wants to continue with this kind of work ; we don ' t want them going out with question- naires throughout the Town . One comprehensive census is about all that the Town can take , so they are going to have to organize beforehand and get one comprehensive census survey . Ettinger Is this group getting back into the local field ? Ley Not yet . Showacre The first and third Mondays are their meeting nights . Smidt wants to get together with people on the odd Monday . Ettinger Would like to urge that this group somehow start getting into this . If someone like Aasen can talk to these people , the Board might hear that the people want planning . Miller They are going into the communities and answering questions . Ley It should be organized more fully . Showacre Right now we may be at a plateau . We should be open to new blood . When we find what we need , we should go and get it , and then those people will open things up for us even more . Smidt , Bratton , and other key men are willing to take on responsibility . The Town Board meeting the other night gave us an oppor- tunity to re - emphasize our role , namely , what the Planning Board is doing and what they can do . This came up when Mr . Howell said that the dead - end decision had been given to the Planning Board and they were going to tell Mr . Horvath how to do it . Again , we had to explain to Mr . Howell that the Planning Board can do nothing until the Town Board acts on the matter . The Planning Board would be glad to make a recommendation to the Town Board , and then they could accept the recommendation and enact a regulation . The Planning Board is now charged with the responsibility of coming up with a recommendation on the dead - end question . This would eventually be part of the subdivision regulation . Showacre They still want a trailer park ordinance . TRAILER Ettinger Is this a unanimous feeling ? PARK • Miller Impossible to tell ; it makes a difference how they feel ORDINANCE at the time it is presented . Showacre They want the Planning Board to present something . Minutes , LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 22 , 1967 ; Town Hall , Regular Meeting , page 8 1110 There will be a special meeting of the Planning Board SPECIAL on Wednesday evening , May 24 , to interview Mr . Arthur Reed , after which there will be consideration of the ORDERS selection of a planner . Edmondson Will be away during the month of June , and would like to participate in the decision ; so it would be either the 24th or not until July . Ley What is our status with regard to the relationship be - tween the Planning Board and Mr . Lee ? Showacre Mr . Lee is a good friend of the Lansing Planning Board at this point . Ettinger Harris Dates has the dead end regulation in his bag . DEAD END We had the regulation drawn up in rough draft form , which Dates has and will return so that a Xerox copy REGULATION can be made . No real report on this ; the Town Clerk has a rough JUNK draft . REGULATION Showacre There is a snag in that as originally written in the TRAILER trailer ordinance , no travel trailers are to be al - lowed outside of a trailer camp ; but by the same token ORDINANCE we don ' t have a trailer camp , so I can see where this would run into serious objections . Ettinger Wishes an "until such time " provision for this situation . There is a Togo:: regulation against camp trailers , but there are several in the Park every weekend . He has called Harris Dates and told him about it every weekend , but Dates does nothing about the situation . Showacre Has gone over the ordinance several additional times to check out dimensions , etc . , and it still seems that on nine acres it is possible to put only seven trailers per acre . By shortening up some of the dimensions it is just slightly over seven on nine acres . A perfect square where you can get maximum utilization of the area is not realistic because the parks do not come in perfect squares ; which means you are diminishing the number of units per area . You have more wasted space and may have used lots containing 4 , 400 square feet because the extra cannot be used for anything . Edmondson Such things as landscaping , etc . , are variables , and I would be willing to accept any ordinance that is well thought out . • Ettinger My concern is not how many trailers can be put on an acre , but having a good job done . Fifty feet is adequate for a buffer if we have the right to approve the planting . Edmondson When you ' re writing a regulation you have to have something Minutes , LANSING PLANNING BOARD , May 22 , 1967 ; Town Hall , Regular Meeting , page 9 • definite . We have to give the Town Board at least some- thing to argue about . Showacre Nine acres provides for just about 50 trailers . Ettinger We should submit one good standard ordinance to them and let them fight over it and send it back to us , and then we can work over it andl resubmit it . All we are saying is that this is a proposal and there can be some give and take . There can be a compromise . Showacre Shall we have two ordinances , one for trailer parks and one for trailer homes not in parks ? Ettinger We should present it all at one time . Showacre Then we have to have some sort of clause about camp trailers not in trailer parks . Edmondson Certainly we ' re going to foment recreation with our plan , so there will be travel trailers and travel trailer camps . On the other hand , there must be some discrimination be - tween the travel trailer and permanent - type trailer . This causes a great deal of trouble , related to sanitation , vagrancy , etc . • Ettinger We need an ordinance against travel trailers not in parks . They park from Myers to Ludlowville from Friday nights to Monday mornings , There would have to be eiscretion in the enforcement of this law , It was decided to consider the ordinance at the meeting of June 13th , and that the Board members would take turns reading it between tonight and the meeting of the 13th . Ettinger Would like to ban meetings start at 7 : 00 p , m , so that NEW they could 'ie over by 10 : 00 p ,m . BUSINESS MOTION : To adjourn , 10 : 55 p . m . Seconded . Passed . ., Discussion of planner interview ; May 22 , 1967 FOR INTERNAL USE ONLY • Edmondson This man is one of the best in the State . Miller He did just what I wanted done ; he projected the program in such a way that I could understand it completely . Edmondson There is a kind of game here , as you ' re beginning to see . The production capacity of this firm is extraordinary . All firms do not do all of this fancy big production work , which of course is in- cluded in the fee . Their cartographer is extraordinarily good . Their economic consultant is not so good , and if we gave them the job I would want another economic consultant to be hired . Showacre Do we have access to the full report out of which they make their deductions ? Edmondson Yes ; the reports are only one- tenth of the data collected . You have access to all of it . Showacre Does this become the property of the town , or do you merely have access to it ? Edmondson It is always available to you , but it is too expensive to reproduce • completely . Showacre If we had the file , would they have a copy of it? Edmondson Yes , they would have a copy of the material . They keep the original copies of the material they publish . Showacre Is there any way that we can determine the value of the residual material that is not shown in the published report ? Edmondson It would be very difficult to do so . Showacre The usefulness of the material generally is in the way it is presented . •