Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout1974-10-08 MEETING OF THE GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD Held Tuesday , October 8 , 1974 at the Town Hall , Groton , N . Y . 20 to 9 - 10 * 30 P . M . PRESENT : G . Totman , Chairman * D . Payne , Vice -Chairman* Z . Kane - Secretary* H . Fink R . Gleason* D . Chase * F . Scheffler* Be Bucko - Town Attorney* H . Dow - Town Supervisor's J . Bell - Recording Clerk* * - Denotes those present . G . Totman : We ' re calling the meeting to order . We won ' t approve the minutes of our last meeting because I forgot to bring them with me to be honest about it . We ' ll approve them at the next meeting . I ' m very sorry . I don ' t know how I missed bringing them . Tonight we have two or three things coming before us . One , the Committee that has been studying the ordinance , as it relates to commercial uses . The Town Board asked us to study it and the if it would be feasible , or possible , to make suggestions to make more land available for commercial use . And Don Chase , Don Payne and Harvey Fink have been studying this . And then the Town Board has , I guess you would say , gone on record suggesting changing the ordinance in the northern part of the Town to create a commercial or medium intensity zone and , under Section 1601 of the ordinance , it stays that when the Town Board initiates a change like this , the Planning Board has to study it and make a recommendation . Be Bucko : I don ' t think that ' s compulsory . Is it in the ordinance ? G . Totman : I ' ll read Section 1601 aloud (which he did ) . Be Bucko : 0 . K . , good . G . Totman : So we have no other choice . And so I asked Hicks Dow- .and Ben Bucko to come tonight to ( 1 ) have Hicks listen to our proposed changes or I should say the report from our committee and ( 2 ) to have Ben here to answer any questions as it relates to the suggested Town Board ' s decision to amend the ordinance . 0 . K . - 1 - a > G . Totman : that opens us up for discussion . It would be my preference , Hicks and Ben , to listen to the committee ' s report as to their findings before we go into the other , if it ' s alright . B . Bucko : It ' s alright with me . D . Chase : First I must apologize for my tardiness and holding up the start of the meeting . I don ' t have anything actually prepared to present to the Town Board - - G . Totman : They understand that , you are reporting to the Planning Board and then we will report it to the Town Board . D . Chase : First of all , I think it ' s Harvey and Don ' s feelings , the same as mine . If it isn ' t , let me know . We saw some things that we thought would help the situation as Hicks asked us to took at it with the rezoning and to clear up some ambiguities that are in the ordinance and so forth , and the things we have looked at have been additions and corrections to the ordinance mainly in how a land is being used . We , by no means tried to go over the whole zoning ordinance , only the specific land use activities section to clear up some things that presented the problem that we had here with Lewbro more than anything else , that would give us some clear -cut decision making . Things in these land use activities as to where they could go and where they couldn ' t go and if something came up that wasn ' t specifically set forth , and what kind of action should the person take who is asking for this . And , so , basically what we did was starting off - - I don ' t know if everybody has a copy of this , - - but we did go through each one 6:f these land activities , I think through about 46 or 47 . Some we changed , and some we didn ' t , but , again , it ' s only our logic and our opinion that we felt it ought to be this way and certainly if the Planning Board has any corrections or suggestions would appreciate them bringing them forth too because we , by no means , thought that we should be the complete governing body on this . Anyways , the ' first - thing we thought should be changed is land use activities . we wanted to put the - - right to the right of that where it says "Areas Where Activities Are Permitted" * indicates activities we feel " special" should be added before permit in there rather than just " a permit . " B . Bucko : When it says it in Article 10 I think it says special permits . D . Chase : If it wasn ' t in there , then all you would need fs ,: a permit ; which I guess could be a permit of any nature . B . Bucko : You could argue that . I can see what you ' re getting at but right after that it says " See Article 10 " so you ' re arguing sematics there . I ' m not objecting , just saying as far as the Court is concerned it wouldn ' t make any difference but I think you ' re right . D . Chase : Now , George , did you want us to go right down through each one of these ? G . Totman : Just like you have it there . - 2 - L D . Chase : Again , don ' t feel as we go through these they are , by any means , conclusions . We saw them as only logical ways of reporting the Town situation . On the first one that says crop farming we didn ' t change that at all . (At this point Mr . Chase said no point in my recording all ( of this that he would give me a copy of it to xerox . ) R . Gleason : In 601 . 2 if you are going to expand low intensity and make it a commercial zone , I would think that you would have to have some provision for logging not to be excluded from these areas as ; they have a considerable amount of timber . D . Chase : That ' s true , Roger , but if you look at the land use map it ::_ s ' all zoned agriculture and this medium commercial zone is very con - centrated and small . R . Gleason : What I ' m getting at - - - - G . Totman : They are not changing this , they are leavint it the way it is . R . Gleason : 0 . K . D . Chase : I think by changing these , wouldn ' t have to do that . Would it make sense , Don and Harvey , to read Section 602 ? That would explain how anything that is not set forth here , what action we would take . We just thought you just couldn ' t put down every single word , adjective and verb on land use activities because maybe another year from now it could be outdated . We thought we ought to explain what action people should take who wanted to use the land for something else . H . Fink : Maybe I ' m just trying to save time , - - this could be quite lengthy but the point that we work on , especially Section 602 , if it isn ' t in here should it be in here . G . Totman : To clarify that Ben , if you look in 602 right now it stands : " . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . are expressly prohibited . " D . Chase : We tried to rewrite that . B . Bucko : Let me tell you something , that would be thrown out by the Court ! G . Totman : They are suggesting changing that to read as follows : " . . . . . . . . . D . Chase : Section 602 , we think , should say something like this " all land use activities not specifically set forth in this article shall require , in writing , changes for review of the Planning Board and approval by the Town Board . 602A should say "No decision shall be made by the Town Board until such Planning Board review has been completed and a report issued . If the Planning Board fails to act within 30 days , the Town Board shall assume a favorable report . 602B ought to say something like , I assume this should be corrected 3 D . Chase : by our attorney '`.if it doesn ' t read just right " the Town Board shall hold a public hearing by advertising in the official news - paper at least 30 days prior to the date thereof and 602C should say something like this " the Town Board shall within 30 days reach a decision . Some discussion was held on these changes by all present . G . Totman : We have established now , what the intent of the Committee is , It has thrown this open for comments of the people present , which is food for thought . We can ' t make all kinds of decisions now and whatever we , as a planning board , present to the Town Board they can change as they see fit . B . Bucko : I don ' t think from the short discussion now that this is what you are going to say , G . Totman : No , We hive heard comments but think we should move on now and hear the rest of the report . B . Bucko : Let me ask you one question . When you studied all these land use activities and you want to cut out low intensity and so forth . Did you consider the land uses on the map and relate to it ? H . Fink : No we didn ' t , it still has to be - - B . Bucko : In other words , there may have to be changes in the land use activities . D . Chase : We did have the map in front of us and we tried to , as much as we could , make our changes in accordance with the existing areas . B . Bucko : Alright , did you propose any changes ? D . Chase : We didn ' t propose any changes in the map . B . Bucko : In effect you are saying you may be putting something that is commercial all over the Town in agricultural ? D . Chase : So ? B . Bucko : Which in my opinion throws out the ordinance . G . Totman : 0 . K . , let ' s go through it now and see what we are proposing , We ' re down to 601 . 4 poultry farming . You ' re excluding low in that , right ? D . Chase : Low on 3 and 4 . 601 . 5 isn ' t changed . 601 . 6 no change ; 601 . 7 no change ; 601 . 8 we added M with an 601 . 9 we added M ; 601 . 10 no change . 601 . 11 we excluded an * on A . Same for 601 . 12 ; 601 . 13 we added an A ; 601 . 14 and 601 . 15 no change ; 601 . 16 we added an * for each category A L and M . 601 . 17 no changes 601 . 18 no change ; 601 . 19 we added an * for A ; 601 . 20 no change , 601 . 21 no change , 601 . 22 we added a L zone and - 4 - D . Chase : and three * - special permit required ; 601 . 23 we added M ; 601 . 24 we added M ; 601 . 25 we added L with an * ; 601 . 26 we added A and L ; 601 . 27 we added A , and now have to ask Don and Harvey a question on 601 . 28 , What did we want to do there ? D . Payne : I think this is something we want to discuss - - travel trailers , what does that really mean ? We should go back to that one . D . Chase : 601 . 29 we added A . 601 . 30 we added A and L with an Z . Kane : For both of them or just the L ? D . Chase : 601 . 30 we added A and L and an * on the L ; 601 . 31 we added A ; 601 . 32 we added A and L ; 601 . 33 we added A and L and three * ; 601 . 34 we didn ' t change ; 601 . 35 no change ; 601 . 36 we added A and 2* one for A and M ; 601 . 37 we added A and an * ; 601 . 38 we added A ; 601 . 39 we added A ; 601 . 40 we didn t change ; 601 . 41 we added A ; 601 . 42 we added A with an * ; 601 . 43 , 601 . 44 , 601 . 45 and 601 . 46 haven ' t changed . G . Totman : Alright , let ' s go back to No . 601 . 28 , I think , if I remember correctly , Ben , now you were there at the time and Roger I think it was . When we talk about travel trailers then we were talking about the establishment of a travel trailer park not travel trailers per se in somebody ' s backyard . Be Bucko : Yes , that ' s right . H . Fink : That ' s a duplication then because we already have that - 601 . 190 G . Totman : Then , actually we should eliminate 601 . 28 , Z . Kane : No , no - an there was something about that . R . Gleason : It refers back to your mobile home , - - Z . Kane : No , that was a special category , I asked about that . You mean that you can ' t keep travel trailer by own house and was told yes but not if somebody hooks it up and lives in there . Be Bucko : I think Zama is right but my own personal feeling is there should be more explanation or drop it but it should be tied in with the mobile home ordinance . Some discussion was held on this by Z . Kane , R . Gleason , Be Bucko and others . H . Dow : I think , to the average person reading this , they would assume we were talking about parking a travel trailer . More discussion was held on this by Be Bucko , Z . Kane and others . G . Totman : What would your interpretation of what we should do with this right now ? - 5 - B . Bucko : I ' d leave it there until we can study it some more . G . Totman : We ' re going to leave 601 . 28 and suggest a further study on this one in our recommendations , 0 , K . Now we have gone through all of the suggested changes from the Committee . Back to Ben , - - you said before we started off - - I ' m just wondering now if you understood really what they were going to report on when you said it would throw the ordinance out ? B . Bucko : I ' ll make an observation here . You have just destroyed your land use districts . If you take a look at it , - - let ' s just take some - - you have your zoning map and here are all your blank spaces here , - - all agriculture , - -you want to control land use activities and to - - - - - - - - - - - - - it , You don ' t want a residence here and a gas station here and a warehouse here or a mobile home trailer and /or something else , That ' s the purpose of zoning to channel growth in an orderly fashion and if you do what you are planning to do - - you could have a ware - house with saw mills , trucks coming in and so forth - - then over here there could be industrial manufacturing plant with products . Where is your orderly growth in the Town ? You have everything scheduled all over the Town and that is the reason why you spent some $ 6 , 000 odd dollars on 701 Plan to show where orderly growth should go . If you put things like that here and there nobody is going to develop that for residential so what do you have ? D , Payne : The 701 report also said that the Town of Groton isn ' t going to grow . B . Buckoo I don ' t believe that , - - Route 222 is growing and will grow . We didn ' t expect Elm Street to expand , Look at Dryden . You have right on Peru Road apartment houses being constructed . If the Town wasn ' t going to grow who would invest their money in it ? Right , So it ' s going to grow but if you allow a mish mash of things to occur in the Town special permits are going to be handed out because they are going to get tired of hearing people complain , D , Chase : 0 , K . So where do you put a lumber yard ? B . Bucko : Right now I think it ' s in industrial . D , Chase : That ' s that in ? B . Bucko : Medium ; in other words I would have preferred , - - from writing up two ordinances for other towns , we said - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -and so forth and then defined the thing , Some discussion was , held on this by Z . Kane , D , Chase , B . Bucko and others , D , Chase : 0 , K . so then you ' re saying we put a place like a lumber yard in McLean or Route 222 ? B . Bucko : That ' s the way it stands now . Evidently you might have to expand that area , - 6 - H . Fink : Two problems - - I think the main thing is if we went out there and picked an area on the map that would be for medium intensity you go up and they have to be willing to go along with the zone change . Be Bucko : No . You recommend it and the Town Board approves it . D . Chase : Then why are we talking about a little area . We should be talking about a big area . What ' s left ? H . Dow : It ' s 100 acres . D . Chase : But Lewbro own 50 acres of it . Be Bucko : Bishop and Jensen D . Chase : No access . Be Bucko : It could be , - -how do you know what is going to happen ? D . Chases I know . G . Totman : Alright , Ben , let me ask you a question . I know what you are talk - ing about when you are talking about R1 , R2 and R3 zones . We don ' t have that here but in looking at these land use activities , and I ' m sure you have in the past ; haven ' t you seen some ambiguities in this . For instance , a veterinary hospital in a L intensity . They even put it in the Village ordinance and I raised the ques - tion and Jim Buyoucos said the only reason we put it in there is there was one already down there . So you have it in a housing area so you want a veterinarian to come in there with a bunch of howling dogs and other animals , - - now who will build a housing development where a bunch of dogs are around or cows ? D . Payne : But yet our ordinance stated before it should be either in agricultural or L not in the M . B . Bucko : I ' m talking about a veterinary hospital in low . D . Chase : But I ' m saying this is in our ordinance but not in M where you are trying to push industries . Be Bucko : I ' m more concerned about some of these things that are in the residential area that are businesses and as far as the agricul - tural area is concerned you have almost eliminated the agricul - tural area because you are combining it with agricultural and business because it will be so speedy once it starts growing you won ' t know which way to turn . H . Dow : If different businesses came along today with these proposed changes , how are you going to plan around them ? D . Payne : They are going to get in anyways the way our ordinance is . Be Bucko : No , I ' m talking about commercial things . D . Payne : Lewbro has already proved that . - 7 - r B , Bucko : Wait a minute , the case has got to be decided yet . I ' m going to fight like hell to prove it ' s the proper thing . Some discussion was held on this by G . Totman , B . Bucko and others . G . Totman : As I stated earlier , the Town Board last night decided to hold a public hearing on a proposed zoning change which , under Section 1601 , states that any such action initiated by an agency other than the Planning Board requires the Planning Board ' s review and recommendations . Now , could I ask Hicks - - what I ' d really like you to do or explain to us , - - the thoughts as near as you can relate - - the thoughts of the Town Board as to why they want to make this part of the Town changed from agricultural and medium intensity because there are seven members of the Planning Board and we are all here tonight and this wasn ' t initiated by us , it was initiated by the Town Board and to act on this thing would like to have somebackground as to why it ' s needed . Relate back to what you asked us to do in the first place . H . Dow : The Town Board is aware of the fact that our ordinance is limited . It has been aware of that for a long time and , like all boards , they had so many other matters to deal with that they didn ' t act directly to do much about the zoning ordinance . The first step being to authorize the Planning Board to study our area here to find if there are possible places where more commercial growth could take place . It has been already pointed out that even though we have a designated area it isn ' t available to us . Now in the aftermath of the Lewbro attempt to find a place for their cement business , the Board has been contacted by many people , the Supervisor has been contacted by many people , and the Town Attorney has been contacted by many people , and as the days have gone by , the evidence seems to be quite strong that more people want industrial growth than do not . Now the Town Board had received a petition on August 1 , 1974 from people interested in the Lewbro installation . As a result of receiving this petition the Town Board has called for a public hearing on October 29th to hear arguments advanced by both sides in the issue . This information will equip the Town Board to make a decision based on what may be considered the best interests of the majority . G . Totman ; Thank you . I would like to open this up now for comments . We have got to make a written decision and send it to the Town Board before the Public Hearing . B . Bucko : May i just say somethih.g , too - - the Lewbro case , I think , has emphasized the need for study of the zoning ordinance to enlarge the industrial area to take care of industries like Lewbro ' s or to put them in different locations because the areas defined for industrial now is limited , not available , and so forth and the comments at the hearing evidently expressed from people from outside the area or not adjacent to it , expressed the feeling that this Town cannot afford to lose industries and should keep them and try to attract more so this is a second reason why there is - 8 - B . Bucko : another reason for other industrial areas to be created in the Town and , so , since the petition is before the Board , even though it is for the same area , - - the Town has a legal obligation to go ahead with the hearing but it has to have a recommendation from you pro or con and has to make the decision on its own and find facts on its own to justify a zone change or disapprove it and the clause in their 601 was done primarily to have your .-'. input , as supposedly the Planning Board has more expertise on this , to help them make this decision . G . Totman : 0 . K . What would your interpretation be of the type of report , either pro or con , to this request from the Town Board . Do you think that in making the report the Planning Board , - -now I ' m being smart , - - should just say yes or no or should they make a detailed report if they are ruling in favor of it , say like that the land is no good for anything else , or what ? B . Bucko : As detailed a report as you can , no matter why way you decide to go . G . Totman : 0 . K. H . Dow : And I might add that would be very much appreciated . B . Bucko : They don ' t have to accept your recommendation but it will be quite a help to them in making a decision . G . Totman : 0 . K. we have to decide what we are going to do . B . Bucko : Let me say this . The Planning Board should look at what is an industrial area , what are some of the factors that make certain areas better for industrial use than residential . Don ' t worry whether they are valid or not , just express your opinions . H . Dow : Now the Town Board has accepted the suggestion that we go see the land itself and walk on it and size it up for ourselves . If you could do this too , - -walk out and look it over and get ideas as to what this adds up to . G . Totman : 0 . K . - members , - - let ' s have some comments . What your personal comments are on this . Z . Kane * We ' re not expected to make a decision tonight , are we ? D . Payne : We have to before the 29th . R . Gleason : Remember back when we came up with the recommendation that it would not be against the spirit of the ordinance to have this changed , - - somebody went down and looked at it . Some discussion was held on this by B . Bucko and all the members of the Planning Board . G . Totman : The hearing is on the 29th so we have to meet and make a written decision and present it to the Town Board before the 29th of this month . I think before we g6rhome I would like to discuss - 9 - G . Totman : this a little bit while Hicks is here to answer any questions that might help and then will schedule another meeting and sit down and write up our decision to the Town Board but , between now and then , I think either all of us , or a committee of us , should go up there and look over the land that is involved so we can intelligently talk about the land that is there . May - be , in your opinion , 2 or 3 people could go up there as a committee . If that ' s what you would wish then we could do it that way but I think somebody from this Board should go up there and look over the land . Can I have some comments ? D . Chase ,* I have some questions before I do anything , - - looks to me like we are being pulled two different ways right now . Hicks asked us to do something to incorporate some commercial and industrial things but I don ' t have the time to spend on more after our mak- ing recommendations tonight and now it looks like we ' re headed in an entirely different direction in rezoning , - - maybe I ' m wrong , D . Payne : I think right now what has happened is there has been a formal request to the Town Board , D . Chase : What area are we talking about ? D . Payne : This has been a formal request , Don , they have to take action on it . W�Vhave : to make . _recommendation either pro or con on this particular request . F . Scheffler : That half of this is owned by Lewbro G . Totman : To make it clear , - - this idea of this zone change did not originally come from the Town Board , - - it came from a petition they received from property owners in that area . What we have to be concerned with - - there ' s a legal petition pre - sented to the Town Board and they are honoring the petition and are calling for a public hearing and will vote after that and , because of that action , we are called upon to make a decision . As long as the request for the zone change has been declared legal then we are obligated to make a decision one way or the other . We ' re supposed to take a look at that land , make a decision as a Planning Board , as it relates to land uses in the Town of Groton , - - in our estimation does that land lend itself more to that type of business or to something else . The problem we are faced with right now , Don , as I see it , is there has been a hearing set up . Some discussion was held on this by all . D . Chase : Let them get some other time , let them have a special board meeting if they have to know this before they decide on this other . If they have to have this information before they can make a decision let them hold a special meeting . What I ' m saying is I hate to see Harvey , Don and I spending so many hours working on this and then to me it looks like it is going to be washed right down the drain . H . Dow : We ' re trying to do just this one part of town right now . D . Chase : I realize that . I ' m saying you should have this information prior 10 - D . Chase : to that , H , Dow : A zoning ordinance is so involved , you just simply can ' t fore - see or foretell anything that is going to develop because you don ' t know . This happens to be the issue at the moment . D . Chases I understand that but I also understand that if these things were approved you probably wouldn ' t have got a letter like that one and it might not be a bad idea to wrestle with that thing beforehand . H . Dow : Probably we would have to hold separate hearings on different parts of that because they are not all related . That suggestion effects the livelihood of a lot of people . D . Chase : I appreciate that but who is supposed to make those decisions , the Town Board? H . Dow : Yes , we have to react by law in serving the best interests of the majority of the people of the Town and I don ' t believe - - D . Chase : I ' m not sure you ' re doing that by honoring that . Some discussion was held on this by D . Payne , D . Chase , H . Dow and others . H , Dow : It would be pretty hard to change the zoning ordinance per se in toto because that is what would have to be done . I didn ' t count the number of changes you suggested but there were probably a quarter of them all . More discussion was held on this by H . Dow , D . Chase and others . R . Gleason : There ' s a time limit involved in that thing . Z . Kane * We haven ' t even discussed this thing yet . Doesn ' t the Town Board have to discuss the committee ' s report ? I wish you would set up our other meeting , I really do have to go home , George . G . Totman : Let ' s set up our other meeting so Zana can leave . Thursday , October 17th at 7s30 P . M , Don wants to know why the public hearing was set for October G . Totmans 29th , H . Dow : I don ' t know that there was any particular reason , - - everybody was in accord . I think there is a sense of urgency here because people investing money down there , for one thing , want to know and we ' re obligated to do something and let them know . I think that adds a lot to setting it in October . Re pectfuIly submitted , J seph ' ne Bell - 11 -