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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1974-07-16 GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEETING Held at the Town Hall Groton , N . Y . Tuesday - July 16 , 1974 - 8 PM - 10 PM G . Totman - Chairman * D . Payne - Vice -Chairman Z . Kane - Secretary H . Fisk D . Chase F . Scheffler R . Gleason* J . Bell - Recording Clerk* * - Denotes those present . G . Totman : 0 . K . Does anybody notice any errors in the minutes ? D . Chase : Yes , one correction of one statement I Made . Not that it ' s very important but on page 7 , second paragraph up . What I meant to say was look into the areas already zoned that we have and see if those people would want to sell their land rather than look for people who wanted to sell land and then rezone it . I guess I ' m satisfied with the way it is . G . Totman : If there are no other corrections or errors , the minutes stand approved as written . There ' s really not a lot to bring up tonight , except for a couple of things we talked about at our last meeting - - - what Don was talking about and the request from the Groton Town Board asking us to look into and study possible ways of making more land available for small businesses or industries . After our last meeting , I asked Don Chase , Don Payne and Harvey Fink if they would get together and meet with Hicks Dow to see exactly what they were looking for and then study the ordinance and I will ask Don to report on that in a few minutes . They did meet with Hicks and I met with them and Hicks laid out about what they had in mind and then the group met afterwards . Last night I attended the Village of Groton ' s Public Hearing on their zoning ordinance . My impression was that they made a very good approach to it . Just for information , there wasn ' t anybody at the hearing that was against the zoning ordinance and I think it was quite significant that one of the features of the ordinance limits any future placement of trailers in the village except in trailer parks . It was conducted quite well , - - there were some - 1 - G . Totman : concern questions but no feeling at all of resentment and , afterwards , at their Board meeting they passed it so the Town and Village both now have an ordinance law . Since our last meeting , I got a call one night from a Mrs . Krager on Cemetery Lane Road out of McLean asking if I would come up and help solve their problem which was a land problem . They have a couple of trailers up there , and wanted to sell some land , - - in fact I guess to a daughter who is getting married and they applied for a permit from Dana which was refused because they didn ' t have enough road frontage , so I tolk her the only other alternative they had was to see the Planning Board and maybe we could help them to develop a subdivision which maybe would make it legal for them . I went up there and looked and it looked like they really don ' t have enough right of way to make a road for a subdivision . I showed her a copy of the Subdivision Regulations and suggested they come over to the Town Hall and pick up a copy and then make out an application for a subdivision if that is what they want . Then after they got it made out we would go over it with them to see if it - was made out correctly and would call a special meeting to see if it was feasible to do it . That was about two weeks ago and have heard nothing from her since so what has transpired from then on I don ' t know but thought for information would let you know what happened there . If there are no questions will now ask Don to report on their meeting re . studying our zoning ordinance . I might say , be - fore Don makes his report , he ' s an important person , I saw his picture in the paper . Did you see that ? Z . Kane : What paper is that ? D . Payne : The Cortland paper . G . Totman : He ' s managing the - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -bank in Syracuse , now . 0 . K . , Don , D . Chase : Tuesday Don 1PayaeTcHar:veyzF., nk and myself met to try to do some research on the Town , looking at the map to see how we would approach this to get some significant response to what Hicks wanted us to do . Looking at the map we couldn ' t seem to come up with a plan of action but there was something we sort of stumbled on looking at our zoning ordinance . We were looking at the restrictions and I guess I sort of suggested what would happen if we - - - do you have a copy of this , Frank ? - - if you take a look at , for example 601 : 42 indicates " Industries . . . . . " and the only zone can have that in is medium intensity and 601 . 44 , which is pretty close to what he wants to do is "commercial . . . . . " we were just thinking if they had just added the word "cement works " in there would have been able to put that in an agricul - tural zone . Looking this over realized you can do more things in an agricultural zone than you can in any other so we were going to - - later on we noticed that Section 602 says "all land use activities . . . . . " which means that they shouldn ' t have issued him a permit anyways . So it really limits them pretty well to 2 - D . Chase : the wording in here as to what industries you are going to have . So , we are suggesting , jointly I guess , that we can accomplish as much for the Town by analyzing and reworking these zoning restrictions and requirements as we could by attempts to rezone before we really have anything to put into any re - zoned areas and we might create more problems in the future by rezoning than we would by trying to reorganize this just a little bit and ' then everything that goes into any one of these zones , agricultural or whatever , if we put an asterisk ( * shall have a special permit ) beside it can pretty well control what comes into the town . We all felt this would give us as much leverage as the Town needed to control plus open it up for some industries . One other thing up at the top it says 11601 - land use activities . . . . . . " There ' s some vagueness to that we think it ought to say it permit so wonder if it should be - changed to say " special " permit up there also . G . Totman : Section 10 , you said ? D . Chase : On the next page , Article 10 , H . Fink : Did you read that second paragraph under that by the way , I see the Board of Appeals has to give that , - -right ? D . Payne : Special permits ? Yes , G . Totman : That says a special condition or a permit , D . Chase : The point we are trying to make is there ' s quite a difference between a permit , it could be a building permit or a special permit . We are suggesting you add the word " special " permit to "permit " ',` Some discussion was held on this by G . Totman , D . Chase , H . Fink , Z . Kane , D . Payne and others . G . Totman : What you are saying is put the word " special " in front of "Permit " ? D . Chase : That is what we are going to suggest . D . Payne : We are just wondering if there is some confusion here between Dana and the Board of Appeals . G . Totman : Dana admits his mistake . He assumed this meant cement works and gave them a permit to start and he realized later he had made a mistake . D . Payne : This is true but , again , it would be clearer to anyone washing to start a business if that was in there , H . Fink : If we refer to this as a special permit doesn ' t the Board of Appeals have to issue the permit that Dana issued ? - 3 - G . Totman : That ' s right . H . Fink : So he made a mistake but it ' s evident this has to go to the Board of Appeals . More discussion was held on this by all present . D . Payne : The ones Don mentioned , - -44 and 42 are only examples . We feel the whole thing should be gone through before we go any further and would like to suggest to the Toww)Board that maybe what they want could be accomplished by revamping the Land Use Activities part ( 601 ) of the ordinance . Isn ' t that what you are suggesting , Don ? D . Chase : Yes . Z . Kane : What you are saying is make the ZoningirOrdinance fit the Town . It ' s flexible and can be changed any time it ' s needed . H . Fink : Section 602 points out what zoning says . It should be changed . D . Payne : Section 602 is too positive . F . Scheffler : Why not wipe the thing right out and issue special permits for any business that wants to come in here ? Z . Kane : And then the ordinance will fit the Town . H . Fink : In other words , give everybody a special permit and then you can choose what you want , - - whether it would be advantageous to have it or not . Z . Kane : And not open it to something you don ' t want . D . Chase : That is our official suggestion , I guess , to the Planning Board and if its your charge to carry it to the Town Board , then I guess we ' re asking you to do that . G . Totman : 0 . K . Then with their consent to follow this thing through , this Committee will then go ahead and start working on these and then bring it back to the Planning Board for suggestions as to what should be changed - - 0 . K . as soon as I hear back from the Town Board you get your Committee together again , Don , and start working on this . D . Payne : Hicks suggested we phone different people in the Town on this . One of the reasons we didn ' t really care to go along with that particular suggestion is that people change their minds from day to day , year to year , month to month , and who knows areas closed right now might be open six months from now so you could not give a positive view for the Town itself as to where in - dustries could go . G . Totman : Yes , I agree with you and think it would turn the Town into a tizzy when you really don ' t have anything to offer them . With - - 4 - G . Totman : out having a public hearing first , broad coverage by the press to explain what you are doing so people would under - stand ahead of time , before you called them , you would be starting all kinds of rumors in the Town . D . Chase : We also feel that even if we did rezone this zoning thing does need reworking . G . Totman : 0 . K . I ' ll find out from Hicks and their normal regular meeting is the first Monday of each month , sometimes they hold special meetings if they have something special pendL ing , - - I ' ll see how soon we can get together with them , - - the sooner the better . Why don ' t we leave it that unless you hear from me differently we ' ll all plan to meet with them , or at least one representative of the committee and myself , and will let Hicks know we are going to do this and have him give us a spot on their agenda for that night . 0 . K . Thank you , Don . Don , at our last Board meeting you had a communication from Webster and VanFleet regarding HbLocrv!< - - - - - request for a subdivision and you answered their letter . Have you heard anything back from them ? D . Payne : Never heard anything . G . Totman : We never got a written request for the subdivision , did we ? D . Payne : Said he would be in touch as soon as he had the necessary information . G . Totman : Alright . To my knowledge there is nothing pending for our Board right now . Does anyone know of anything ? Except for the question that Roger Gleason asked at the last meeting about his possible subdivision . D . Payne : Zana Kane answered a letter from Mr . Duffy . G . Totman : Did you get a response back ? Z . Kane : zli sent it to Dana , not to him . D . Payne : Haven ' t heard anything but we probably won ' t . R . Gleason : I can say something about Duffy . He has approached me to buy some more land , or lease enough land if I don ' t want to sell , since I own just to the north there . I told him I would have to think about it . I ' m still thinking . I don ' t think that having him lease anything would solve the problem so the only thing would be to sell him and I ' m not sure I want to . G . Totman : One other thing the Planning Board worked on that hasn ' t come into being yet is the franchise for cable TV for the Town of Groton , - - this affects mostly Peruville and the McLean area . We had assumed that everything had been signed - 5 - G . Totman : by the Town Board , Mr . Ceracche and were waiting for the State to give their approval . We learned last week that the formal signing by the Town Supervisor and Mr . Ceracche has never happened and they sent the preliminary proposed franchise to the State for their opinion but was a question between the Town Attorney ' s interpretation as to the changes of the fringe area , which hasn ' t been settled , and have held up the signing all this time and until they get their signatures on it the State won ' t approve it so after I heard that I called Ben and then L- called Mr . Ceracche to get his version of what I had heard and Mr . Ceracche ' s only comment was that if we want to get cable TV we ' d better get Ben to get it- dbwmAo him to sign so , supposedly , tomorrow afternoon Mr . Dow and Mr . Ceracche are supposed to be getting together to sign the franchise . That was my latest news this after - noon . It ' s unfortunate that that happened because , according to Ben , the State gave tentative approval and are just waiting for these signatures . At our last meeting , Roger asked us to ask Ben Bucko , our Town Attorney , to render an opinion as to the procedures for an application for a subdivision when a person is not sure just what prospective buyers want in size of lots as pertaining to major and minor subdivisions . Since that meeting I ' m sure that Roger has been in contact with the Town Attorney and , correct me if I ' m wrong , Roger , but the Town Attorney has advised you to take those two parcels of land that you have and apply for two minor sub - divisions . If I remember clearly Old Stage Road goes this way and Lick Street that way . The two parcels of land you are talking about , one is in here and the other down here ? R . Gleason : Right . G . Totman : Your place is here and there ' s another house here by the name of this other land , eventually someday might want to sell it and when you do would have to apply for a major subdivision and so the next thing , then , is for you to decide if that is what you want to do and make a formal application out for two minor subdivisions for now . I asked if it would be possible to have hearings on both dti: the same night and it was recommended to me that if you apply for them at the same time , we could schedule two hearings for the same night , one at say 8 P . M . and one at 8 : 30 P . M . You would have to have two separate sets of sketches and everything else . Any questions ? D . Payne : I don ' t understand that at all . Z . Kane : Me , either . D . Payne : The way that looks to me right there , - - it ' s still one big parcel of land being split into three sections . R . Gleason : I have separate tax deeds , theytre separate lots . Some discussion was held on this by all present . - 6 - D . Payne : Supposing the subdivisions get approved , - -what would they be subdivided into ? How large re . parcels of land are you talking about ? R . Gleason : This is one of the problems , - - I don ' t know . D . Payne : You - would have to know what size you are talking about . R . Gleason : 55 acres in one and 35 or so , Ism not sure , in the other . More discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , D . Payne and others . G . Totman : Ben has looked into this and says it ' s legal what Roger wants to do . R . Gleason : If I go beyond this , it immediately becomes a major sub - division and some place in the regulations it says the Planning Board may nodify some of these things as long as the interests of the Town are served and actually two minor subdivisions will do the job , you still have control over it . If I was putting in roads or had to put in drainage or anything like that , then right off it ' s a major subdivision but no putting in of roads would be involved as far as I ' m concerned . At least that ' s my understanding with Ben , - - one reason he said this is because there would be no in- volvement of roads or drainage . D . Payne : Have you considered meeting the County Health Regulations ? R . Gleason : Well , I have to get that and that is something I would do . G . Totman : 0 . K . Are thwre any questions now ? R . Gleason : I ' m going to try before the next meeting , if I decide to 1, go ahead . When I start figuring out what it costs to do all this , might change my mind . G . Totman : Roger , in all fairness , this is something ,new for us to talk about a subdivision when the owner is one of the members of the Planning Board so if you d.ink you are going to be doing this between now and the next meeting I ' m going back to Ben and ask him if there ' s a question of legality if you sit in on the meetings while we discuss your subdivisions . R . Gleason : No , I would stay away from them . I talked to my lawyer and he said to stay away because I shouldn ' t be here when you are discussing mine . Some discussion was held on this by all present . G . Totman : The Town Board has given us authority to approve subdivisions as we see them . We go to the Town Attorney for legal opinions or if there ' s something we are doing that he doesn ' t agree with so we don ' t get the Town in trouble and he gives us his opinion . - 7 - G . Totman : ' As I read this , on page 33 here , it doesn ' t say Roger Gleason has got to have his - whole land surveyed to get a minor subdivision , it says "tract " and as far as I ' m concerned this is what we are going to go by that tract of land you - want to make into a minor subdivision is what we will look at . It ' s the same thing , using Irma Lyons ' for an example . She bought a tract of land and then said she wanted to make a minor subdivision in that tract of land and this is the same thing , in essence , that you will be doing . You are taking a .tract of land out of your farm to make a minor subdivision . . We don ' t care about the whole 150 acres in that plat there . It says " tract " in here , not all the land . More discussion was held on this by all present . G . Totman : 0 . K. , then , you ' ll decide what you ' re going to do ? Ril.4 Gleason : Yes , G . Totman : In discussing all this , it gets right back to one of our responsibilities , as we are dealing with the ordinance and regulations , one of our responsibilities in the general law is to not only be in charge of regulations but to keep re - evaluating the ordinance we have and make suggested changes to the Town Board as we see them so if there is something wrong with them we don ' t biame the Board , it ' s our responsibility to look these over and recommend changes to the Town Board so these are some of the things we should be looking for . 0 . K . Roger hasn ' t decided yet whether or not he will file for minor subdivisions but I think we ought to go through this thing and if there ' s one question there may be others and if we have his application for the next meeting will take it on the agenda and also bring suggested changes for the re - gulations to the Town Board so do your homework and read this thing and see if there are other things like maybe under definitions that word " tract " should be changed . Some discussion ,iwas held on this by Z . Kane , F . Scheffler , D . Payne and others as to changing the word " tract " to something else . G . Totman : There being nothing coming before this Board that I know of for sure , other than what you are talking about Roger , unless someone wants to have a regular scheduled meeting during the next 4-weeks , I ' ll leave it that I will call a meeting if we get a request to do something or otherwise we ' ll take the month of August off and meet in September . I ' m not decreeing , - - I ' m suggesting . Unless we get a request for a subdivision or something special we will hold our next meeting in September . R . Gleason : I guess there would be one problem with that , - -what about my 10 days before regular meeting ? G . Totman : When you ' re ready , call me and I ' ll call a meeting . R . Gleason : 0 . K . , - - just wanted to know . - 8 - G . Totman : In the meantime we will bring this up and try to get some - thing ironed out . I think I might ask some other attorneys on other Town Boards that I know and see what they are doing with these sort of situations . Now our committee will meet and revamp this and we will meet with the Town Board at their meeting the first Monday in August , - - right ? Don Payne moved the meeting be adjourned . Harvey Fink seconded the motion . (Motion carried ) . Respectfully submitted Jose hine Bell 9 -