Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAbout1974-05-21 V JOINT MEETING OF THE GROTON TOWN BOARD AND GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD Held at the Town Hall Groton , New York , Tuesday May 21 , 1974 TOWN BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT : TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT : H . Dow - Town Supervisor D . Payne - Chairman L . Baker - Town Clerk Z .-Kane - Secretary Be Bucko - Town Attorney D . Chase P . Shurtleff H . Fink V . Metzgar L . Sovocool OTHERS PRESENT : V . Rankin D . Snell - Zoning Enforcement Officer J . Bell - Recording Clerk The meeting was called to order at 8 P . M , by Mr . Dow , H . Dow : The first order of business is to nominate a chairman . V . Metzgar : I nominate Hicks Dow , L . Sovocool seconded the nomination and Mr . Dow assumed chairmanship for the meeting . H . Dow : This meeting is just an informal gabfest to discuss the question that has come up within the last few days on a possible zoning change on the north end of town along Route 38 up to the Lock Town line and if it should ever become effective it would involve the property sold by Julian Brown to the Lewbro Company and the adjacent properties all situated on the east side of Route 38 , Now I could go a little farther and state that the proposal we have been discussing , but it ' s only in the discussion stage , is that property which will be north of the property line between Lewbro ' s and Julian Brown ' s and west of the Bishop , Jensen property line and bounded on the west by Route 38 and properties owned by Evans , Larkin and Anderson . ' The Whatman property is north of them . Will bring you all up to date and bring you the background of the initial proposition and the problem here and , at the end of the meeting , we can probably decide on giving up or doing something on it . So , I sketched this thing on the board here . It isn ' t drawn to scale but it ' s something we will all understand when we picture it . As you go down toward Mineral Springs going to Locke on Route 38 come across the Locke Town line . Now then , along this highway we have property owners by the name of John Evans , who owns 3 parcels No . 4 . 5 , 5 and 6 and 4 . 3 is Mr . Larkins and then this out here is Whatman ' s to the north of this property recently purchased by Lewbro . Now formerly all of this belonged to Julian Brown and he reserved that corner and sold the rest of this to Lewbro ' s but also retained this bottom half here . There is Whatman , Lewbro , Julian Brown , Julian Brown , Jensen and Bishop . Now on our zoning map you will notice that this is agricultural . Right in here is a narrow band of low intensity out here along the highway like this so crossing here into this Lewbro property 75 ft . wide is low - 1 - H . Dow : intensity and this is agricultural and therein lies our problem be - cause they want to put their cement mixing business here beside the creek on this north knoll and that is agricultural and according to our zoning cannot put that kind of industry or commercial property in an agricultural zone . They could have a sand and gravel pit here but to mix cement can ' t do that and the only way we can accomodate them and let them put their plant there would be to change our zoning so it would be medium intensity from here to the Town line and that is the purpose of our meeting basically to discuss whether or not we want to do that and Ben is going to outline the procedures we would have to take and , after getting all the facts together , we ' ll go on from there . P . Shurtleff : Hicks , this would be in this new property area but wouldn ' t go south of this ? H . Dow : According to our last discussion going to cut it off here . L . Sovocool : Wouldn ' t that be spot zoning , you can ' t do that , can you ? H . Dow : Would have to assume Whatman would go along but tonight will have to decide where we are talking about . Do you want me to read this page in layman language ? B . Bucko : Go ahead , read it . I ' ll tell you the legal ramifications , Mr . Dow read alound "Method of Zoning Procedure " which was from Town Law 264 and 265 . B . Buck6 : Can I say something ? The problem that you have , ladies and gentlemen , is that Lewbro is buying this property and it is in a low intensity and agricultural zone which is prohibited . To change it would be considered spot zoning and this would be illegal . So the reason the Town Board discussed this Saturday and felt the Planning Board should be involved in this , because evidently Route 222 is the only area which has medium intensity where this kind of activity can grow so , consequently , these people have no place to go in the Town , nor would any other industry have a place to go in the Town , so think it ' s a two - fold program whether you can do anything for these people and , secondly , for the Planning Board to start looking at other places , medium intensity , where industries could go . To include this area would be spot zoning so therefore the Board is considering including all of this area in medium intensity ;whether this is a logical step , that is something for the Board to decide . You have this as residential all the way through here . P . Shurtleff : I would like to know something . How did they arbitrarily pick that area for medium intensity on Route 222 and not have any other set up at that time elsewhere in the Township ? B . Bucko : My understanding , from attending 701 meetings , and there were a lot of them , was that medium intensity industrial that was the logical area for industrial to go . Route 222 was there and it was going to be developed and when you have industries you want arterial highways going to that area and , so far as wager and sewer is concerned , sewer is going down hill , water going across - - only reason they picked that area . P . Shurtleff : But there was no opposition to that area at that time but could very well be to this prospective area , - 2 - B . Bucko : It isn ' t as highly developed and here it ' s residential and when you look at zoning maybe this area and Chipmans Corners Road were all residential . 38 going south was all residential and 222 was picked on the basis of road access and so forth . P . Shurtleff : But if this had been included as medium intensity at that time the chances are wouldn ' t have been opposition to it that there would be now . B . Bucko : I don ' t know . It ' s speculation , - -who knows ? D . Payne : This doesn ' t show under our Subdivision Regulations , does it , Ben ? B . Bucko : No . Has nothing to do with building houses or laying out streets , or anything else . Strictly picking an area and saying you are going to change the zone from low intensity and agricultural to medium intensity and industrial . D . Payne : 0 . K . , - - that ' s going to be a parcel of land . This down below is still owned by the same person , - - right ? B . Bucko : Right . D . Payne : And up in the corner there , still owned by the same person ? B . Bucko : Right . It has nothing to do with subdivision regulations . It ' s a housing development cluster planning an industrial park but an in - dustrial park has to have a zone change . P . Shurtleff : If this was changed to accommod6te Lewbro does that mean couldn ' t build houses there any more ? B . Bucko : No , in industrial zones , houses are allowed . P . Shurtleff : But not the other way round ? B . Bucko : No . Z . Kane : But what would be allowed in that medium intensity now besides an industry like this one ? Seems like a lot of other types of in- dustry could then come into the same area ? H . Dow : This is the issue we are dealing with right here , Zana . ( Mr . Dow showed Mrs . Kane the part of the zoning ordinanace involved . ) Z . Kane : What I ' m getting at is how much do these people have to fear by this change ? B . Bucko : It ' s unlimited , anything that you see in here would be allowed . P . Shurtleff : Do you have a formal petition from these people about this ? H . Dow : This was brought to my house by John Evans . (Mr . Dow presented a petition from the people in the area for all present to look at . ) B . Bucko : Everyone on this side of the road is entitled to protest and if they do have - 3 - B . Bucko : got to have more than a majority of vote by the Town Board . The Planning Board have no decision to make on this . D . Payne : 0 . K . Does this require a public hearing ? B . Bucko : Right . No . 1 the Board of Appeals could not overrule the Town Board or the Planning Board , can only overrule Dana who is the enforcement officer . You people appointed a zoning commission to come up with the ordinance , 701 planning commission and other people and once they gave it to you you had a public hearing , passed the zoning ordinance and the Town Board is the only one that can change the ordinance except in certain places where the Planning Board has things to do in subdivision regulations . Alright , once they pass it , Dana enforces it for you . Let ' s say they asked for a building permit here . He denied it . They said he is wrong and should have a variance then they go to the Board of Appeals who vote on it and say yes or not . If a neighbor protests they have to go to Court . However , if you want to change the ordinance from low to medium intensity zone it has to come to the Town Board who will change the map location of the district and so forth and then it goes to the Courts after that . D . Payne : Recently Dana requested the Planning Board look into and investigate the same type of operation in the south end of the Town of Groton . B . Bucko : Right . D . Payne : And I think this is the same case . B . Bucko : Right , they filed an application with Joe Wargo and he was ready to publish the notice and I told him no it was not a variance and they were advised they had to go for a zone change and Portzline had the property surveyed and all of a sudden I got an inquiry last Friday from a neighbor down there asking how come they can go in this area and the same situation exists here as there . D . Payne : Is everyone here aware of our findings on Dana ' s request 2 H . Dow : The Portzline case you mean , Don ? D . Payne : Yes . I have a letter that the Planning Board gave Dana on our findings . (Mr . Payne read this letter aloud . ) P . Shurtleff : That was academic because it wasn ' t zoned right in the first place . B . Bucko : It could be rezoned but ifs only one parcel is�p that would be spot zoning so would have to get Cotanches , Portzlines and all the others down there to agree to the same thing we are talking about here . D . Payne : 0 . K . those were our findings but had no actual decision there and were not involved in a direct yes or no . P . Shurtleff : You are just raising these points . D . Payne : And as I say - you should consider the same points here . - 4 - H . Dow : Ben , did you hear anyone say how many acres are involved here ? B . Bucko : It ' s about 30 . You have about another 30 which would be about 60 acres . H . Dow : I was assuming from where that bottom line was it would be about 30 acres and Lewbro would be buying around 12 , wouldn ' t he ? B . Bucko : No , he ' s buying about 30 acres and Dennie Lawrence was going to buy about 15 acres . More discussion was held on this by H . Dow , B . Bucko , D . Payne and others . D . Chase : You say that they want about 30 acres out of a total of 60 . B . Bucko : They have 30 acres , - - that would accommodate them , - - 1 , 22 3 , 5 , 6 , 4 . 3 and 4 . 5 the Town Board is drawing in to avoid this spot zoning . Z . Kane : What Don wants to know is how much you will be rezoning . D . Chase : I think that would be significant . B . Bucko : The biggest consideration here if you get a law suit is to find that you are zoning this area as industrial in opposition to these people over here , - - if you don ' t have that covered , - - forget it , you ' re going to lose in court . Z . Kane : What are you talking about ? Say it again , - - I lost you . B . Bucko : I ' m saying if the Town Board goes for this to accommodate these people , drawing this in in opposition to people who want it residential and if you change this to industrial the only basis is to accommodate these people . You are not doing it as an overall plan . Some discussion was held on this by Z . Kane , B . Bucko , L . Sovocool and others . L . Sovocool : Actually there is no other land there for industrial . Z . Kane : They could put a gas station in there or anything else they wanted to if it is rezoned . B . Bucko : There are 50 different uses for it once it is changed . V . Metzgar : What I think Lou is saying is that the land that is left is very poor . Z . Kgne : Right , but you can see how these people would feel . B . Bucko : Dana says north of there is all swamp but if a guy wants to take fill and fill it in there ' s nothing to it ,-- -he would make money . D . Chase . I think some consideration ought to be given as to why it was zoned that way in the beginning . - 5 - Z . Kane : The 701 Committee told us there was very little land that could be used for industry in the Town of Groton . H . Dow : In fairness to everybody , can ' t forget one point , - Mwe would not be doing it for just one individual , - - I don ' t take that viewpoint . What we have to keep in mind is whether we do this or not some - where in Groton have to have some place , some where , other than 222 , for people to come in with industries . P . Shurtleff : How about Elm Street ? Z . Kane : Actually we ought to have a spot some place where an industry of this type could come in . H . Dow : It would be a good business and they are young men and good citizens . Where to put them , I don ' t know . P . Shurtleff : This is where the Planning Board should make a study , shouldn ' t they ? D . Payne : They have to be near water and where do you find a place like that here ? Be Bucko : When the Planning Board is considering this , doesn ' t have to be a creek , just a source of water . In this particular case , I don ' t know what Whatman said , or Ander - son , so don ' t know what they are saying . Z . Kane : Anderson doesn ' t live there , does he ? L . Baker : Neither of them live there . P . Shurtleff : Where are you going to find a place in the Town of Groton where there isn ' t going to be opposition ? Some discussion was held on this by V . Metzgar , Be Bucko and others . H . Dow : Where does the best interest of the total public lie ? More discussion was held on this by H . Dow , Be Bucko , Z . Kane and others . Be Bucko : I have no personal feelings on this one way or the other . Whatever decision you make , - . if you make the decision to rezone it , - -unless you are on firm ground you are going to be wiped out . H . Dow : Remember there are 8 different homes represented there . D . Payne : If there are any thoughts about going ahead on this , possibly notification to the County Planning Board and the Town of Locke , to see what their feelings are on this situation before we go any further , would be in order . V . Rankin : They couldn ' t care less down there . - 6 - D . Chase : What does it take to change zoning ? B . Bucko : A public hearing to change the map . D . Chase : Can you change that area so that you only zone half of that industrial and leave the other half as it is ? B . Bucko : No , along here is low intensity , which is residential , and this is all agricultural and if you come in here and say that this is industrial you have to justify that this is part of your overall zoning plan for the Town , not just to accommodate one party . D . Payne : You have to rezone more than the one area ? In other words 4 out of 5 Board members have to go for it before you can change any zone ? P . Shurtleff : I say in theory maybe should vote and save on having a public hearing . L . Sovocool : It appears right here from this petition that the people around there don ' t want it changed . V . Metzgar : Yes , they are going to make a lot of noise . Z . Kane : I don ' t blame them a bit . P . Shurtleff : The easy way out is to take a straw vote by the Town Board but are we morally obligated to hold a public hearing now that they bought this land to show them there is this opposition ? Some discussion was held on this by D . Payne , Z . Kane , B . Bucko and others . D . Payne : I think one of the big points of this meeting is that the Planning Board should sit down and look at the areas in the Town and see which ones could be rezoned for industry . B . Bucko : Not only for industries but for trailer parks . H . Dow : I think Groton has to have some places . to put industries in . We don ' t have the pull to get an industrial park in here , - -have to go after it piecemeal . I L . Sovocool : You can ' t draw the employment to fill them . P . Shurtleff : How many people want the place to really grow there ? V . Metzgar : That ' s right . B . Bucko : The more you grow , the more services you have to provide and the higher your taxes are going to be . P . Shurtleff : Hicks , I think you have to ask these Board members would you or wouldn ' t you . V . Metzgar : Why don ' t you throw your grand finale at us and get this meeting over with ? - 7 - • H . Dow : That ' s what I have this paper for so I can pass the slips out and the Board members can vote yes or no . A yes vote means we will go ahead and attempt to rezone and . a no vote indicates we will drop it . Mr . Hicks passed the slips of papers out to the Town Board members and Don Chase of the Planning Board was appointed teller . Mr . Chase reported three ( 3 ) No votes , one ( 1 ) Yes vote and one ( 1 ) Abstain . P . Shurtleff : I think we ought to go on record in some way . B . Bucko : The one thing I think the Board is concerned about is : 1 . it ' s residential now and 2 . this has to be a well thought out plan . This is one case I wouldn ' t like to argue in court for you . H . Dow : It says right here we have the right to amend the zoning , The point is this town needs industries . P . Shurtleff : I think we ought to go on record as trying to locate places for industries . Why don ' t we go on record as asking the Planning Board to come up with some alternatives here ? Z . Kane : That ' s real sweet , - - thanks ! H . Dow : I would like to propose , Don , that the Planning Board devote some time and see if there are areas in our Town that could be made available for medium intensity zoning to accommodate industries . D . Payne : Did you say we should try to locate another area for this particular outfit ? P . Shurtleff : No , - - just other areas that would be available for industries . D . Chase : Maybe we already have enough industrial zoning in this Town . Maybe they have to look into the industrial areas instead of trying to buy land where industry shouldn ' t be . D . Payne : Probably the majority of these businesses would not be ob - jectionable at all to most land owners but in the type of situation we have right now it would be objectionable to anybody . V . Metzgar : Maybe could just expand the area on 222 , say towards Stage Rd . and Elm Street , D . Payne : What you are saying is go back to the side roads ? Some discussion was held on this by D . Chase , D . Payne , P . Shurtleff , V . Metzgar , Z . Kane and others . P . Shurtleff : Can the Planning Board spend money advertising , - -asking if say there are any people who would be interested in this thing 8 - t . P . Shurtleff : to come forward and join with them in trying to establish more industrial zones ? H . Dow : I think we have an item in the budget for operation of the Planning Board and we also have Federal funding which we could use , We can make the funds available . B . Bucko : I don ' t think the Planning Board has the authority to go out and ask people this sort of thing . P . Shurtleff : I mean to ask the local tax payers if they have land they , would be willing to put into this type of thing , Some discussion was held on this by P . Shurtleff , Z . Kane , D . Chase , H . Dow and others . B . Bucko : You take the industrial zone we have now , it was picked because Route 222 was going to be built up but I bet if this area we are talking about tonight was made industrial at that time the people would have been in screaming like they are now , D . Payne : Right now what is out there ? H . Dow : A chicken farm and a milk business , B . Bucko : That was there before . V . Rankin : How about this plat out here on Peru Road ? Ploss owns most of that . There ' s all kinds of land in there and a creek that runs all the time , H . Dow : Well , all of us ought to inquire around and make some studies and see what the people think . P . Shurtleff : I don ' t think people want to sell land very badly and those people that have houses don ' t want anything else out there , D . Chase : If they get enough money for it they will . More discussion was held on this by all present , A . Dow : I ' d A ike to thank all of you for coming this evening , L . Sovocool made a motion that the meeting be adjourned which was seconded by V . Rankin and carried , The meeting adjourned at 9 : 30 P . M. Respectfully submi ed ,B Jos phin Bell 9 -