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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1973-01-31 GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEETING Held in the Town Hall , Groton , New York - Wednesday Night January 31 , 1973 8 : 05 P . M . - 9 : 45 P . M . PRESENT : G . Totman* H . Dow - Town Supervisor* R . Cotanch* B . Bucko* - Town Attorney Z . Kane* D . Snell* - Zoning Enforcement Officer D . Payne* J . Bell* F . Scheffler* R . Gleason * - Denotes those present . G . Totman : I think we had better get started . The general purpose for this meeting tonight is to clarify some questions that the Planning Board has regarding the legality - - that is why Ben is here - - the different problems re . enforcing our Subdivision Regulations and Zoning Ordinance . Over the year we have had questions on what is legal and what isn ' t and how the zoning officer looks at various parcels of land . For example , when somebody owns a parcel of land and sells off a lot and builds a house , - - and then the next year builds another house when does it become a subdivision , or if they are not adjacent to each other , is he , in reality , forming a subdivision . Also the legislation last year changed some rules and regulations relating to subdivision regulations and we have taken our Subdivision Regulations and wrote in where we felt that they apply and added to them and , hopefully , they will comply with the State ordinance and we would like to have Ben make sure what we have done is legal and complies with the State Regulations because the Town has given out all available copies and we have to change ours be - fore they can have more printed . This is an all marked - up copy of them . D . Payne : These are the changes required by New York State , Ben . G . Totman : Now another thing I have , - - and it wasn ' t the reason for calling the meeting , - - if a man who wants to build some buildings in the Town and he thinks it comes under the subdivision regulations , I have strong doubts about it but thought we should discuss it . Where we ' ll start first is with the subdivision regulations and questions we have on it . Don , do you want to start it off ? D . Payne : Changes or questions ? G . Totman : Questions as to legality . D . Payne : Yes . One of the things the Planning Board has discussed and are - 1 - D . Payne : interested in is , - - if a man owns a parcel of land and he decides to either build himself houses or sell them off periodically , or sell the land off periodically , - - at what point , - - or does he ever , - - come under the subdivision regulations ? B . Bucko : Under a minor subdivision .it says four lots fronting on existing street not involving any more , - -major subdiv- ision is 5 . D . Payne : 0 . K . min©r is now two to four . B . Bucko : Minor subdivision says , - -unless this has been changed - -not more than 4 lots . 0 . K . let ' s say I have a parcel of land - 2 acres - and I want to build two on one acre lots I come under the sub - division , - - 2 or more . R . Cotanch : As soon as you sell the second one ? B . Bucko : It actually should be applicable - - G . Totman : When he sells the first one does not apply but when he sells the second one it applies ? B . Bucko : That ' s right . G . Totman : What Don is asking , then , is he had better build the first one in compliance with the regulations . B . Bucko : That ' s where , - -when he comes in for a building permit , the enforcement officer tells him if he builds one more they will be applicable - - he will come under the subdivision regulations as a minor subdivision . D . Payne : Here ' s another question - - if he built one house a year or sold one lot a year for building for five years - - O . K. at the fifth house or lot it would then become a major subdivision , - - is that right ? B . Bucko : That ' s correct , but let me go one step farther - - here ' s Elm Atreet , - -has all of these lots , - -he builds here and sells this one so now he should be aware that this one is now making him a subdivision and will be classified as a minor subdivision if 4 dots are fronting on an existing street . When he starts build - ing the second one to sell he is subject to subdivision regula- tions but as lone as he is on an existing street you don ' t have to worry too much about them except for sewer , water and so forth and that he is complying with zoning ordinance , - -but let ' s say has one back here and wants to put a road in here , - - now this is where he should file plans after the second is done but you won ' t be too concerned about it if he is on an existing street . Any other application of the subdivision regulations you should be concerned with but he isn ' t going to have to worry too much about preliminary plans being restrictive 2 - B . Bucko : to him . It ' s only when he gets where he has to build a road that you will really have to worry about compliance . D . Payne : Say he has this road frontage - - 150 ft . for zoning ordin - ance and subdivision both , - - supposing he comes in and says he is going to build a house and wants to build it with 125 ft . road frontage - - and next year comes in and says the same thing . B . Bucko : Sooner or later , - - after the second one , - -will be stopped because he has to file plans somewhere along the way . He has to go under the subdivision regulations after he sells the second one . This is why it becomes important when somebody comes in for a building permit to build a house , - - that ' s when Dana should tell them if you build or sell any of that land for another road then he does come under the subdivision regulations and can be made to comply with them . Z . Kane : At the time they start the second place ? B . Bucko : He should be advised before he even sells the lot . D . Payne : As soon as he builds the first one or owns land he should then be advised concerning the subdivision regulations ? B . Bucko : Right , - - it ' s up to Dana to advise them . More discussion was held on this by B . Bucko , D . Payne and others . H . Dow : Zana , - -who owns that whole corner lot ? G . Totman : George Wall . D . Snell : George Wall , - - he hasn ' t done any more . B . Bucko : He should be told , when he gets his application , that if he has intention of building any more , - - if he builds two , - - has to comply with the subdivision regulations . D . Payne : I understand he asked for a copy of the subdivision regula - tions and has since changed his mind . As the years go by , is this still considered a subdivision , - - even though it ' s only once a year he sells a lot off ? B . Bucko : Ron Cotanch could have 1 , 000 ft . frontage on Route 38 - - let ' s say and last year sells one lot and the next year one lot and so on and after the second one is under the subdivision regulations . Z . Kane : Even though it ' s two separate parcUs of land one across the road from the other ? B . Bucko : That ' s right . If he wants to sell a lot , say by his chicken house , O . K . but the next time he wants to sell one is then a - 3 - B . Bucko : subdivision . D . Snell : You mean if he builds a house here and sells this lot for someone else to build on he ' s still under the subdivision? B . Bucko : That ' s right . If there ' s an existing house on it can ' t do anything about it . D . Payne : I ' m talking about since the subdivision regulations have been in effect whether it ' s a house or a lot - - H . Dow : Here ' s this house with a cellarway to go up now and he ' s coming up here for septic tank - - let ' s suppose .Joe Dokes sold him a lot right to the back end there that has a well and a septic tank so seller who sold this lives in the City and is going to put in a garden next year and ruse some things and in the course of the next year this fellow de - cides to sell out and go to Florida and sells the remaining half to someone else , does this continue to be in effect , - - subdivision ? B . Bucko : Yes . The only thing the Board is to be concerned about is driveways , gutters and so on . As long as this conforms to the zoning ordinance in size it conforms to thehealth ordinance , what are you worried about in the subdivision regulations , because he has two frontages . D . Payne : Let ' s draw a line across the middle of that . B . Bucko : Alright , - -now he sells this lot , right ? - - immediately the subdivision regulations come into effect . More discussion was held on this by Z . Kane , D . Payne , B . Bucko and others . G . Totman : Don ' t you think , in all fairness to the first man who owns the whole parcel , - - in all fairness to him , - - one of our obligations would be for him to understand before he goes out and makes a lot of plans and spends a lot of money - - B . Bucko : That ' s why I said Dana should be advised so when someone comes in for a building permit . Let / s say he bought five acres and says will build a house over here , - -Dana is to look at it and say you have some land over here and you might want to sell it in the future but be sure you come under our subdivision regulations because otherwise some - one would get stuck and couldn ' t get a building permit . G . Totman : I ' m afraid that first guy misinterpreted something , -because he has a copy of our subdivision regulations and his original intention was to build four houses but now has changed his mind and will build one this year and so on each year . B . Bucko : He should be advised that he comes under the subdivision regulations . They are still in effect . More discussion was held on this by H . Dow , B . Bucko and others . - 4 - F . Scheffler : Suppose he owns four corners and builds a house on each corner ? B . Bucko : He would come under the subdivision regulations because it ' s two or more lots . F . Scheffler : Suppose I own a strip of land 10 miles long and build one at each end ? B . Bucko : Subdivision regulations . What you are concerned about is that the guy in the middle later on - - only thing you are concerned about . H . Dow : The key to the whole thing - - the purpose of the ordinance is to protect for future development . Z . Kane : Can a parcel of land , - - that doesn ' t have to be all in one piece , - -can have roads in between and still be one parcel ? B . Bucko : Yes . R . Cotanch : Ben , suppose someone buys a parcel of land on all four corners from 4 different individuals and has four different deeds ? B . Bucko : Doesn ' t make any difference - - he owns it and is developing it . Let ' s say he buys all four separately with the intention of building four homes , F - all you have to do is make sure he has 150 ft . and is on an existing road and no sewer or water problems , - - alright next let ' s say he owns this lot , this lot , this lot and then this lot . Now he sells three of them and after this one , or this one , he should file under the subs division regulations . (Mr . Bucko drew a sketch of Sovocool Road - and Sincerbeaux Road and said say someone has two parcels and sold one lot here he ' s alright but now he sells two he has to have a minor sub - division regulation and you are putting him on notice because he sold two has to submit plan and if he is going to sell more you have to put him on notice , otherwise helter - skelter he ' s go - ing to build . ) D . Snell : UI can ' t see why , if have all lots on existing roads , why he has to go into subdivision . G . Totman : That ' s the State Law , B . Bucko : It ' s to protect people that may build in back . Z . Kane : Then someone has to keep track of these people that won ' t come running to us . These subdivisions must be being violated all the time , - -you don ' t think about running around checking . D . Snell * I can ' t run around all the time . 5 - B . Bucko : No , but you see the building permits coming in and that is the time to check into it . R . Cotanch : What about an individual that has a large chunk of land and builds a house on it 500 yards from the road , puts a gravel driveway into it and sells that house and builds another one back in there . Do they have any recourse to making him come back and underground the whole thing ? B . Bucko : Should have been caught before it was built . D . Snell : Young Adams is building that . He hasn ' t turned in an application for a building permit yet . B . Bucko : You ' d better stop him before he is all done . Going to have another law suit if you don ' t . More discussion was held on where this was being built . B . Bucko : He ' s in violation of the law . He should be notified . G . Totman : No matter what it is , he has to have a permit to do it . B . Bucko : But he ' s building without it . More discussion was held on this subject . B . Bucko : It ' s not an acceptable road . If he moves his trailer 2 ft . from where it was before it ' s in violation of the ordinance . G . Totman : Dana , when this happened in the past , what has been your procedure when you know someone is building something without a permit ? D . Snell : I call them up . G . Totman : Now , would you appreciate somebody calling you and asking you if someone has a permit or not . Would you like that done ? D . Snell : You drive around all the time you find somebody . G . Totman : They have to be notified . If we know it and ignore it we ' re in violation , too . F . Scheffler : What about Nobles , - -he ' s building a house behind a trailer ? G . Totman : 0 . K . , - - anyone else have anything ? Dana , do you have some questions ? D . Snell : There ' s a lot on Lick St . and Old Stage Road that has been sold that has only 125 ft . square each way , - - now the guy is stuck to build a house because he hasn ' t got a 150 ft . frontage . Z . Kane : They should make it their business to know . 6 - B . Bucko : That ' s where his attorney is at fault . Do you have signs entering the Town of Groton that say zoning is enforced ? H . Dow : No , we don ' t . B . Bucko : You should have . G . Totman0 Does anybody else have anything they want to ask Ben or Dana , - - if not let ' s talk about this request that I have . Z . Kane : We can ' t til we see it . G . Totman : Jimmy Valentine called me and asked me , - - said he had talked to Dana , - -and said he had 3 acres of land all on Stevens Road in McLean and wanted to build two 4 - ppartment buildings and wanted a copy of the subdivision regulations so I gave him a copy of them and when he brought them back to me (because I only had the one copy ) he said he would submit his application and he submitted this application and these sketches , - -now what he has submitted doesn ' t comply with our subdivision regulations , - -what he has in mind wants to build two of these , - - I have reservations but he ' s building two multiple residence buildings . B . Bucko : To me this would not fall under subdivision regulations but under zoning ordinance because he only has one lot . G . Totman : That ' s the key , - - I didn ' t think of that . B . Bucko : This falls under multiple residence under the zoning law . D . Snell : Supposing he separates it later and sells one of those ? B . Bucko : If he sells them later , that ' s alright , - - doesn ' t make any difference because if I was examining this title wouldn ' t want to split this road down the middle so he has problems . D . Snell * I thought he was going to have a drive for each one but he isn ' t according to that . G . Totman : This is his tentative idea , - -might change his mind and go ahead and put a U - shape right in here . He wants us to have some idea of what he has in mind . That ' s one there and each one will have four apartments in it . He can do it this way , or possibly go around , - -he is not at the present time thinking about building it to specifications in accordance with the Town , - - D . Snell : Another thing on this - - as I understand it - - this is Stevens Road he is going to go back in here and have a road of his own and his buildings will be up in here ? G . Totman : No , - - the bridge is here , - -he ' s planning on putting a house here and another one in here . 7 - D . Payne : Who is required to take care of that road ? G . Totman : He would be as is not building it to Town specifications -that is his responsibility . D . Payne : Just building a driveway and will maintain it himself ? G . Totman : That ' s right , - -'.11 explained that to him that if he plans to turn it over to the Town has to meet their specifications . B . Bucko : Let ' s make this two lots with the idea he wants to sell them separately and the driveway is here and another one is here , - -right ? Then would be under the subdivision regulations . More discussion was held on this by G . Totman , B . Bucko and others . G . Totman : The key here is he ' s going to keep this as one parcel . B . Bucko : When you talk about subdivisions , the regulations say the division of any parcel of land into two or more lots , - - that ' s the difference . Let me say this , - -we ' ll say that this is Stevens Road , - - right ? He buys this land down here , - right ? Now he goes to develop another one like this that he got from a different owner , there ' s a question might come under the subdivision regulations if he divided it , it would be put in the lot up here . R . Cotanch : Shouldn ' t we acknowledge his plans and say we think it ' s commendable and that he should get in touch with Dana for a permit ? B . Bucko : And the plans should be such that he shows on the building permit that he has the number of feet required per dwelling unit for off - street parking , frontage and so on . He has to have 640 ft . D . Snell : He has 385 . B . Bucko : He doesn ' t have it then . Wait a minute , - - on frontage has to have 80 ft . per dwelling unit . He has to have 320 ft . for one building . D . Payne : He has a total of 385 ft . B . Bucko : Then he doesn ' t comply . D . Payne : That is road frontage ? B . Bucko : Right and 60% of the lot would have to be vacant land , - - for one house . According to his diagrams here can only have one of these buildings now . H . Dow : He could have two 2 - family units . - 8 - B . Bucko : He can put one in with 4 apartments in it but cannot put two buildings in there with four in each . Is he in the agricultural zone ? G . Totman : He ' s in the low intensity zone . It goes all the way up Stevens Road , B . Bucko : Well then , he is in low intensity and therefore in low intensity "where the soil conditions . . . . 10 , 000 sq . ft . per dwelling unit . . . . " He has to have 80 , 000 sq . ft . He can ' t meet it . More discussion was held on this by D . Payne , Z . Kane , B . Bucko and others . B . Bucko : He has to have 400 and he has 385 and he has to have 400 . G . Totman : Alright , - - it also says down here can be reduced according to soil conditions . H . Dow : You - were talking about 8 - family units . B . Bucko : He ' s lacking 15 ft . of complying with the ordinance so would have to file for a variance . He doesn ' t meet the requirements . More discussion was held on this by all . B . Bucko : I ' m say that even if he went down to the bare minimum he still could get a variance . D . Snell : You have another one on McLean -Cortland Road , - - Gerald Cornell . He wants to put a road down in here and sell 4 lots on each side for trailers and they are 100 ft . frontage and I told him supposing somebody buys it and wants to put a house up can ' t do it so told him to go to the Health Department and he did and they told him they wouldn ' t O . K . it and he would have to redesign his roads . B . Bucko : Should file plans under mobile home ordinance if he is selling lots after the second one he has to come in with plans for subdivision regulations . More discussion was held on this by D . Snell , G . Totman , B . Bucko and others . D . Payne : Under the zoning ordinance , low intensity requires what frontage ? B . Bucko : 150 . D . Payne : Right and he is off . They can ' t get a building permit . Z . Kane : Now does the subdivision ordinance apply to trailers as well as to houses ? B . Bucko : Right . 9 - D . Snell : Here ' s something you should have a new ordinance for , - - if I give a permit to put in a double trailer - - they are assessed as a cheaper house , - - there ' s nothing in there that states that they should be skirted , and they should be . B . Bucko : There ' s nothing in the zoning ordinance about construction of houses so it should be an amendment in the mobile home ordinance . Should add " double unit " to your ordinance to cover the situation . This is why you should put into this ordinance modular homes as transportable - - put in a new definition and change Article 15 . If you put in modular homes people in mobile homes won ' t be concerned about it . D . Payne : If we put it in now the person already there wouldn ' t have to comply because he is already there . B . Bucko : Yes , he would have to . D . Snell : Good old Lockwood over there came in and paid the girls $ 10 . 00 and wouldn ' t take his application and fill it out for a building permit . What do you do ? B . Bucko : Did he file the permit ? D . Snell : Came in and paid girls , gave them $ 10 . 00 and wouldn ' t make the permit out - - didn ' t even take it . G . Totman : Should they have accepted his $ 10 . 00 ? B . Bucko : No . D . Snell : I wasn ' t here , - - B . Bucko : We ' ll write and tell him holding the $ 10 . 00 until he files his application and if he doesn ' t file it will get an in - junction . G . Totman : Well now you see why we had this meeting , Ben . D . Payne : Did we cover everything on the subdivision changes as far as Ben is concerned ? B . Bucko : I ' ll take a look at them . H . Dow : Were the two dates in question ever changed ? G . Totman : I gave them to you . H . Dow : See if they are in there now before Ben leaves . ( This was checked and it was discovered that they were not . ) G . Totman : Check with Lois as we will have to come up with those dates . 10 - G . Totman : Is there anything else we would like to ask Ben ? I think it has been a very fruitful get - together . B . Bucko : Always remember when you are talking about subdivisions you are talking about lots . D . Payne : If a man builds a house and sells it and then sells a lot next to it it still becomes a subdivision because there are two lots involved ? B . Bucko : Yes , that ' s right . G . Totman : Before we leave we have to decide ( 1 ) when we will have our next meeting and ( 2 ) the County Planning Board is planning on having a planning forum on Float Plan Management and In - surance . It will be put on by the Tompkins County Planning Board and Cayuga Lakes Basin Water Resources Planning Board . This forum will be held on February 22nd in the auditorium of the New York State Gas and Electric . The speaker will be Frank Dwyer from the New York State Department of Environmental Control , Bureau of Water Management and there will be a discussion and question type of thing . Now then , members of the Planning Board , when is your desire to hold our next meeting ? The next regular scheduled meeting would be next Wednesday , February 7th . Personally I see no purpose in holding a meeting then . If nobody has any further questions , let ' s - - - - B . Bucko : I have received a letter from a professor in Cornell Law School and he has developed a program where law students can continue on another year in Law School and take classes in zoning and planning and so forth , - - it ' s sort of an additional year of study and when they get out they get a degree in law and a master ' s degree in planning and this professor wanted to know if I had any objections if a law student came and worked with the Planning Board on this project . I wrote back and said I saw no objections to it but didn ' t want the student coming in here and telling the Board this is the law , - - if there are • any comments on what the law is he is to clear it with me first . I think one of them tried to call me today and will be in touch with me in the next day or two , so will have a Cornell law student here if you don ' t object . G . Totman : Does anybody have any objections to that ? D . Payne : I think it would be good . G . Totman : It there are no objections our next meeting will be the third Wednesday in February , which is the 21st , or do you want to wait until the first Wednesday in March . Z . Kane : How about February 28th ? G . Totman : That ' s 0 . K . with me . Z . Kane : I ' ll make a note to phone everyone . - 11 - a G . Totman : And you ' ll be at it , right ? Z . Kane : Yes . R . Cotanch : I make a motion that this meeting be adjourned . D . Payne : I second the motion , ( The motion was carried and the meeting adjourned at 9 : 45 P . M . ) Respectfully submitted , Josephine Bell 12 -