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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2002-03-12 � 3 RECEIVED MAR 2 8 2002 TOWN OF GROTON ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS TOWN OFGROTON TOWN CLERK Verbatim Transcript of Public Hearing & Meeting - Tues. , 12 March 2002 - 7 : 30 FM Groton Town Hall - 101 Conger Boulevard - Groton, NY Board Members (*absent) Others Present Lyle Raymond, Chairman Joan Fitch, Recording Secretary John Pachai George Senter, Sr. , CEO Steve Thane Tom & Karel Jackson, Applicants Lisa McElroy Patricia Gaines Public Present Doug Albern The Public Hearing was opened at 7:30 p.m. by Chairman Lyle Raymond. L. Raymond: Okay. Is everybody ready? The first thing I have to do is read the Notice of the Public Hearing and do this verbally. Please take notice that the Zoning Board of Appeals of the Town of Groton, Tompkins County, NY, will hold a public hearing on March 12, 2002 at 7.30 PM at the Town Hall, 101 Conger Boulevard, Groton, NY, for the purpose of considering an appeal for a variance by Thomas D. & Karel L. Jackson, 118 Wood Road, Groton, New York, to site an Elder Cottage Housing Opportunity (ECHO) unit that is larger than is allowed under the Groton Land Use and Development Code. The appeal specifically relates to Section 320. 3(a) of the Land Use and Development Code, which states that ECHO units shall not exceed 750 square feet in total floor area. Signed: Lyle Raymond, Chairman, Zoning Board of Appeals. J. Fitch: Do you have the date of publication for the record, please? L. Raymond: Of the Notice? J. Fitch: Yes. L. Raymond: March 6' . I didn't know we had to do that. Okay. And for the record, the fees have been paid for this so we can proceed, and usually the next thing we do is introduce ourselves, our Zoning Board of Appeals, so that you guys will know who you're talking to here. We hope we're neighbors. I'm Lyle Raymond, of course, Old Stage Road. S. Thane: Steve Thane, also on Old Stage Road, L. McElroy: Lisa McElroy, Cemetery Lane in McLean. J. Pachai: John Pachai, Cedar Lane, P. Gaines: Pat Gaines, Cobb Street, in Groton. K. Jackson: Tom and Karel on Wood Road. And now I know why I know you. L. Raymond: Okay. Now usually the next item of business is something I have jotted here in my thing here. It's called the Chair's statement. And tonight I do have one - I had a handout - I think everybody got this. I am going to go over this. You'll have to bear with me a little bit. But I think it's important because I think it will set the tone for the whole hearing. And what it is, as you can see here, is a record of people contacted in regard to this request for a variance. I spent quite a bit of time talking with several of you people, John and Pat in particular; I didn't mean to exclude any of you folks, but anyway, we felt that in order for us to make an informed decision on this variance, that we need to know something about ECHO housing units ourselves and what's involved with this whole process. I talked with Heather McDaniel, as you can see there, who is a Planner in Tompkins County. Page 1 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 And what she did for us was to search the other towns in the County and see which ones had something in the zoning ordinance. And the reason for that, we wanted to find out how other towns were handling these requests for variances. And one reason for that was because this is the second request that we've had in just a few months, as you know, and we began to feel that maybe we better have a little bit of background ourselves if we're going to keep getting requests like this. She found that two of the towns had things in their zoning ordinance, Dryden and Lansing. Lansing is very simple, one page affair, and they have no limitations on size whatsoever. In fact, they don't make hardly any stipulations except it's an ECHO housing unit and I don't know who it's up to, I guess it must be up to the Planning Board there, whoever does Site Plan Review, and whatever they want to approve . It's pretty wide open. I was told by the CEO that this is a little bit untested. It's a rather new ordinance that they have over there in Lansing, so they're not sure yet how this will work out anyway. So anyway, Dryden has one which is much more extensive. I was told that the Better Housing people, the Better Housing Opportunity people of Tompkins County, when they came up with these leased units that they started in - it's been quite a few years now - had gone around the County and had public hearings and developed a model ordinance that they gave to the towns to adopt. And this 750 square feet came out of this batch of public hearings. And Heather indicated to me, and she's on record in the letter, that the 750 square feet size limitation was put in there specifically to make sure that no mobile homes are used for ECHO housing units. Because they knew you couldn't buy a mobile home that small. And by doing it that way, you excluded mobile homes. The reasons for this that were not given in the letter, but given to me verbally, is that supposedly there were other towns when they went around the County, who said they don't want any mobile homes in this town, no way whatsoever, and we're not going to have them in there for an ECHO unit. K. Jackson: In town limits or village limits? L. Raymond: Some towns. K. Jackson: Because there's a difference between in the township and in - L. Raymond: I know. J. Pachai: Right. It doesn't have to do with that. L. Raymond: It doesn't have to do with that. This is a model ordinance for village or town. It doesn't matter. And supposedly, that was the reason the 750 square foot was set. I got a little bit different take on that, as you'll see a little bit further down here. I also talked with Henry Slater and Kevin Ezell. They are the Code Enforcement Officers in the Town of Dryden, to learn what they were doing in Dryden. They had two recent cases of custom-built modular ECHO units that were built and I found that they were ordered from and custom built by a Pennsylvania outfit - a little bit more on that in a minute. One is over on Peruville Road, I was told, and the cost was $45,000 for 644 square feet. And one of them was $51 ,000 for 750 square feet, and I believe that was down towards Harford they said. I also was informed by Henry Slater, who's been around there awhile over at Dryden as the CEO, that under the NYS Education Law, manufactured homes that are less than 1500 square feet do not have to have US HUD approvals. Rather, they come under NYS modular home regulations, and approval by a licensed engineer, he said, will meet the requirements if they don't have a certificate or a stamp on the home. Having a licensed engineer come in and look it over and certify that it's a habitable dwelling would do the trick. Then I talked with Richard Platt, Dick Platt, who's the new CEO in the Town of Lansing. He's new because, as we all know, my man we know well, George Totman, was the CEO there for a long, long time. Dick has only been there since July, and he didn't have any cases since he's been there to report in Lansing testing their ordinance. However, he informed me about something called "Park Model RV" homes that he had learned about recently. And, it turns out, they are kind of an enhanced version of a recreational vehicle, resembling and blending with a modular home, but they are still transportable as an RV. And Dick provided me with the name of an RV dealer for Park Model Homes which is up in Pulaski. The two people he said he knew were using them to live in Florida for six months and then come back here for six months, and he also knows of some people he said living year-round in them over near Norwich. Page 2 of 25 6 � Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 So, as you can see, the next item there, I called Mike's RV Sales up at Pulaski, and I found that there are hardly any dealers in park model homes in New York; there's only two or three, and he's about the only one anywhere up in this whole area. He provided illustrated brochures on the models available and the sizes and prices. And I have them with me if later on somebody wants to look at them. Then I talked with the Manufactured Housing Association in Albany, and they told me they only represent modular housing units that are US HUD approved. And this does not include park model homes because they are still classified as RVs. And so it doesn't come under US HUD Certification, so they didn't have anything to help me with. Next I talked with Stacey Crawford and Amanda Schnoor, both of whom are with Better Housing for Tompkins County in Ithaca. They provided me with the criteria for the use of their leased units which are 24 by 28, or 572 square feet in size. And the criteria is here: you've got to be 60 or older and have an income not exceeding 60% of the median household income, da, da, da, da. And they rent from between $ 190 and $390 a month, plus utilities, but this depends on the income of the person who's leasing the unit. And, in talking with John who was talking about what do they set these units on in terms of foundations, since they supposedly - they've got to be temporary and got to be in the position to be able to be removed, and I was told that these units are placed on wood cinderblock foundations. J. Pachai: Right. L. Raymond: But not a cement foundation. Obviously, a cement foundation would say it was permanent. And if you're going to move the thing away, I was told, to restore the place to what it was is pretty hard with the cement foundation. J. Pachai: Although that could be just broken up and dug up or used for a patio or something like that. L. Raymond: Well, a lot of things are possible. That's true. Yes, that's true . Anyway, this is what I found out. Okay. Then I had a very profitable with David Stoyell who is the Executive Director of the Tompkins County Office of the Aging - I see somebody knows him. But anyway, the Better Housing people referred me to him because he was around and had a lot to do with the purchase of those original units that the County has, and also would know where you get more of them or not, or what costs are involved, and a whole lot of other things. Well, he told me that these modular units were custom designed specifically for the purpose that they wanted and the size that they wanted, and that they were built by an outfit in Pennsylvania—back to Pennsylvania again. And he said the reason for that was because they were about the closest one specifically building these type of units. Although, he said, any construction firm, if given the specs and design, probably could build a unit like that, but not everybody has the experience to know what they're doing and it's more complicated than it seems. And this outfit in Pennsylvania is experienced. They've been doing it quite a bit, and so that was a good place to go to do this. So the units that we're talking about that were established over in Dryden, I mentioned earlier, came from there. They were built in Pennsylvania to a specific design. P. Gaines: The law is to accommodate physically limited people? L. Raymond: That's right. P. Gaines: So they are really specialized? L. Raymond: That's right. They are designed and specialized specifically for that, inside and out. J. Pachai: The ECHO housing brochures that I 've seen which, this goes back about ten years ago when we were looking at homes - we were looking at modulars and the company, Stratton Homes, which is no longer in business, happened to have some brochures. I just happened to see them and I have property that I thought --- So in looking at them, that seemed at that time anyways to be the trend to just automatically have grab bars in the showers, have 3-foot doors, because even though a senior going into one may not need a chair or may need these features later, the upcharges is not significant to go from a 32-inch door to a 36-inch door. Grab bars are $20 apiece; that sort of thing. You might just as well have it right off the bat. Page 3 of 25 � S Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 L. Raymond: Okay. Well, David went on to say that the need to custom design such units is a real problem for people who must purchase them, due especially to the high costs that are involved for custom design. These are not ready-made built things like mobile homes on a lot somewhere where you just go and pick them out. L. McElroy: In this case, in Tompkins County, he's referring to units that have been purchased by the County, right? L. Raymond: Yes. But he also was talking about, in general, talking about if anyone else wanted to get a unit-- L. McElroy: Right, L. Raymond: --because the County ones are not available because they got such a backup. L. McElroy: Right, L. Raymond: And so the only alternative they have is to purchase one. L. McElroy: Right, L. Raymond: And if you want to get one of these units, then cost is a big factor. L. McElroy: Right. That would be more expensive than, say, the $45,000 and the $51 ,000 , L. Raymond: That's right. You're up to that class. L. McElroy: Did he say what they do cost? L. Raymond: He said it varied so because it depends on the person; you see, you're custom designing. L. McElroy: Oh, I see. L. Raymond: I asked him about that. L. McElroy: So they're built individually then. L. Raymond: Yes, individually. And when they say custom designed it means they are individually done for each buyer. And so there is no - you can't get a price list saying well, da, da, da, da, da, only in very general terms I suppose for that. J. Pachai: Rather than like waiting and coming back to this, I think I'll throw out some information I picked up - L. Raymond: Okay. J. Pachai: I got a figure of $50 to $60 a square foot for modulars that are custom designed, depending upon the features that they have which would put a 750 square foot unit at thirty- seven five or forty, forty-five or something like that. It just depends on how many options - L. Raymond: And what you want in them - yes. K. Jackson: And how are they set up to be removed? J. Pachai: It's basically the same way. I don't know how they do it, but they do it. They bring them in usually on a flat bed and then use a crane to set them in place. And I think when they do it, ordinarily, with a regular modular, I think they're probably using nails and spikes, where with something like an ECHO, where it's designed to be removed, I would imagine that they just substitute that with substitute bolts for the spikes. Page 4 of 25 e Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 K. Jackson: I was told a modular isn't removable because it's - J. Pachai: Yes. But they can be. And in fact that's what - K. Jackson: Oh, I thought they were set mostly to a foundation and - J. Pachai: Usually they are, but the - what it really boils down to from what I can see, structurally, is when you get into that type of home you're dealing with - and the trailers will have two by six walls. K. Jackson: Yes. J. Pachai: The modulars will have two by six walls, so floor joists may be similar. It's the steel frame underneath and, typically, in the case of a single-wide the shape. K. Jackson: Yes. J. Pachai: But otherwise as it's put - I think it was in something that you picked up that they're becoming very - K. Jackson: Very similar. L. Raymond: Yes, I 'm coming to that. I 'm coming to that. That's what I was told, yes. J. Pachai: Fifty or sixty square foot, and one thing I should throw out is that one of the reasons that we went through all this is, Lyle in particular, is because we have to consider are there other options available, are the reasonable, this sort of thing. L. Raymond: Yes. J. Pachai: And it doesn't necessarily mean anything other than the fact that we do have to look at them. So in order to have that information to look at, we have to go out and get it. K. Jackson: Yes. L. Raymond: Yes. Well, David went on and I paraphrased some of the comments he made here. When he found out what we were up to he said that he felt the Town should be flexible in how they apply their zoning codes to accommodate ECHO units. And keep in mind, he said, especially, that moving costs when it comes time to remove them. He said that's become a significant factor, he says, for a number of people. L. McElroy: Oh . L. Raymond: And so he says whatever unit type of unit you approve, keep in mind what it is, he says, that you're getting rid, or the Town itself in their zoning code, should keep some of this in mind. He did not recall that the 750 square foot limit on ECHO units was developed specifically to exclude mobile homes, although he said this may have been an unstated factor in establishing the proposed size limit for a model town ordinance. Rather, he thinks this was accomplished indirectly by establishing that modular units were to be used for the County program. And so, you know, take your pick. I don't know what their explanation is, but there's something there. Where there's smoke there's fire, they say. J. Pachai: If it's not written, it's a moot point. L. Raymond: Yes. Well, okay. So then the last person I really talked to was Timothy Knight. And I didn't get ahold of him until this morning. Guys in Albany are pretty busy. And he's a Code Specialist in the Codes Division of the NYS Department of State. And he's the one who all the Code Enforcement Officers, including our own here, George Senter, and Henry Slater, all look to when they have a question. They go down there and ask Albany, you know, what do we do about this? So, anyway, Timothy, the first thing he told me—nice guy he was—and the first thing he told me, he used the Page 5 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 words "regulatory nightmare." I thought it was worth quoting in here . He said because how the State Building Code should deal with these ECHO units is not clear. Currently they are being handled on kind of an ad hoc basis as need arises. Since they are often too small in size for the US HUD approvals to apply, the fallback is on State and local regulations on this. He said that modular home regulations apply for units over 320 square feet; however, this does not apply to the park model homes that are still classified as RVs. So it puts them . . . a modular home, even though they meet the square footage. He said that they're becoming very similar to a modular home in appearance and function, these new park models. In fact, he's the one that really pointed out that the differences between mobile homes, modular homes,, and park model RV homes are rapidly merging to the point where it's difficult to distinguish them apart. And it's posing a real regulatory problem for the State as well as the Federal and local building codes because the building codes, none of them, are set up on this basis. They are all set up to deal with them on a separate basis and not the merging of all of these into kind of a one type unit. Approval by a licensed engineer, he said, is one step that can be taken, but also would need the approval from the State Codes Division, all of which becomes a lengthy process with its own costs, both financially and timewise. So he recommended in the end, he said if the Town can find a way to deal with ECHO type housing, your town, that your town and you are comfortable with, then he said you should decide it that way. John, that's what I got from the voice that's supposed to be the authority. J. Pachai: Sounds like he's more of a politician. L. Raymond: He has to be, I suspect. Yes, he knew all about the Tompkins County units because he said I was involved when they were first set up and that was the first such operation in the State . And he said I was involved in how to approve them. And he said they went around and around on how to deal with that and how to approve those things. And he said there's a lot of unanswered questions yet, but he said the thing is working and that's the main thing. J. Pachai: What amuses me is how they place size restrictions on why certain regulatory agencies only deal with a particular size or down to a certain size. The, I mean, this means that basically you could build yourself a 250 SF house and not have to meet any regulations. L. Raymond: Yes. J. Pachai: Which doesn't make any sense at all. L. Raymond: I know. There's a lot of things doesn't make any sense in this world in this regulatory stuff. Yes. J. Pachai: I understand that. L. Raymond: So anyway, I also did a little website search. These days, you know, it's not cricket unless you do that. I just keyed in park model homes and see what I turned up. Maybe John, I think, you did some of that too . And I think what we both found out was that there's only a limited number of dealers selling these models in NYS. There's one in Pulaski, one in Chautauqua County, I found, and one in the Adirondacks. And there's some down in the New York City area. But the largest number of dealers nationally are in the Eastern US, down in the Carolinas and Florida. They are selling these units, making a big thing over it. Maybe you saw that on the web. I also looked at Modular Structures of Pennsylvania. That's a formal title of the outfit that they were getting these modulars from for the ECHO units, down in Pennsylvania. And their website - did you get it, John? J. Pachai: I didn't go there. It sounded like you had everything down that we needed. It said basically it was a custom— L. Raymond: That's what they said on on their web - that's what they said, yes, yes. They didn't have any prices or any standard stuff like you get with mobile homes because they didn't have them. It just says we are custom outfit and they made it a great big thing - it says how well customize it any way you want, you know, and you just talk with us and all that stuff. So they didn't have anything off the shelf. Lastly, of course, my members here know we have the AARP people and there's just some general stuff in there. Page 6 of 25 ) Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 So anyway, I thought I better go through this tonight before we get going further just to set the tone here for what we're going to do with the Public Hearing. And we don't have any other communications that we have received pertaining to this case. Usually we have one from the Planning Office, but I don't see the letter so maybe they might have forgotten to bring it over. So I guess the next item here is a presentation of the Appellant's case, which is the applicant. And so well let, finally, Mr. and Mrs. Jackson speak up and tell us what they're doing. I do want to say one thing, however, before we get going for everyone concerned here. That the Planning Board has already approved the Site Plan, so therefore we are mainly concerned, almost entirely, only with size. And the only other things that will come in here in terms on the lot or interior and other stuff would only be in relation to the size. If it's relation to the size. So I just want to clarify that. Anyway, let's turn it over to Mr. and Mrs. Jackson to indicate to us in their own words what they are up to here, in addition to what they've submitted. K. Jackson: Basically, my mother's 77 and I need to get her closer than 15 miles away. It's hard to go shovel her driveway, mow her lawn, and take care of her or open a jar of pickles whenever she needs. We've got ten acres of property and we looked and looked to find something that was small enough where she could manage and care for herself and, as you probably know if you've looked at trailers, the double-wides - we found a nice little 988 square foot, two-bedroom, two-bath. She's traveled for years so she's got a collection of Indian pottery and Indian blankets to hang on the wall and all that stuff that you're fond of with your memories that she doesn't want to get rid of. And this will do nicely. And I 've got three sisters that are out of state. When they come they like to stay with her, even if we're in the same - next door - they still go to see mother, not to see me. We see each other, but that's not the point. When they come from out of state they like to spend time with her. She's physically strong, healthy, active. She drives, gets around, cares for herself, and I think this is the best way to keep her that way, when I don't have to worry. One day my sister called me from the State of Washington and said where's mother? I said, what do you mean? She said I 've called all day, she doesn't answer her phone. So I called my brother that does happen to live across the road but works a lot of hours, called my sister-in-law and said go find out what's wrong with mother. She goes across the road, she comes back, she says Karel, I don't know. All the lights are on. The car's not in the garage; it's sitting in the driveway sideways, the TVs on, the house is locked, and I can't get in. I don't have my keys. Doug's got them at work. So I go from McLean, back over to Etna I go in, unlock the house and all the lights are on, TVs on, dogs are there. We go out and search outside to make sure she hasn't wandered off. She'd gone to dinner with a friend. She'd been napping in her chair, got up and walked out. But this is like the third time it's happened. And I said we've got to quit doing this. Because it's scary to wonder when you walk in the house if she's collapsed and had a heart attack. My brother works funny hours and I don't go over every day. I can't see if she's put the dogs in and out, if she's fallen and broken a hip. When we found this place, one of our own criteria, speaking to a couple of you, is to make sure that it would be handicapped accessible if necessary - - the doorways are wide enough. My stepfather lost a leg and was in a wheelchair for a number of years, and then he had a couple of brain tumors. So we do realize when we look that this is a possibility someplace down the road, so we made sure we had an open floor plan where we didn't need to worry about a lot of that. Different things that you know as you deal with elderly are necessary. It does not have the handicapped rails in the bathtub because that's the other thing we look for every time we look at something, but like you said, they are $20 and you bolt them on. We looked for the good construction. I can show you the construction that they're done with. The good insulation. The RVs that I called about, you know, it's R- 11 and the walls are R- 19 and the ceiling is four and that's not just going to cut it in New York. P. Gaines: They're made for Florida. K. Jackson: Yes, they are made for exactly what they are: six months here in the simmer, six months there in the winter. And some of them are beautiful, but at $30,000 that's more than she can get a place that she can live in and be comfortable in. And, like I said, we've got ten acres. J. Pachai: Now what would be important for us to know, if you can go on and to maybe whether you looked around for something at 750 , or - K. Jackson: Yes, we did. The first thing we checked - J. Pachai: and what your experiences were there. Page 7 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 K. Jackson: I didn't bring it. I did happen to glance at it in another folder. The smallest we even found was just over eight and it was broken off into very small doorways to accommodate two bedrooms and one bath. It had a fairly good living area, but everything, except for the one that we found, was very divided off with a hallway that you had to go down in order to get into one or the other, or to get into a laundry room. And it just became a concern. Like I said, when we went in, we knew we had to look for either walker or wheelchair accessible because it's what she needs. It's going to be her home and hopefully for a long time. J. Pachai: And was that a single-wide? K. Jackson: That was a double-wide . J. Pachai: That was a double-wide. K. Jackson: And I didn't even think to bring the other one, and there were only about two or three that we found that were reasonably close. We found a single-wide - I can't remember what that was. It was a 14 by 60 or something, and you could multiply it out. G. Senten That's 840 square feet. K. Jackson: Was that what it was? Okay. But that was the same thing. Then you've got a lot of hallway - P. Gaines: And making the turns from the hallway into the rooms. K. Jackson: Yes. And it all became a concern. That was closer, but then you've got 60 foot of something stretched out along the edge of our woods instead of a compact 24 by 30 . And it just would look bigger and out of place. Because, you know, let's face it, it's our side yard. I don't want it to look like a trailer park anymore than you do. In fact less than you do because you don't live up there. P. Gaines: That's a beautiful place. K. Jackson: Have you been up there? P. Gaines: Yes. K. Jackson: Up by the microd track and stuf P P. Gaines: Yes. K. Jackson: See we've got the woods behind us. We pay taxes on it separate. We run just behind the house to the garage - about 10 feet behind the garage, 15 feet behind the garage. It goes straight down and it takes a right over to the edge of the woods and then goes straight back on both sides of the woods into we butt into Johnny's property. T. Jackson: The upper half of the woods. K. Jackson: That whole upper half, yes. So there's a lot of property, so whatever we need to do. If we need to drop trees to clear it so that it looks natural and rustic into the setting, whatever. You know. It's not a problem getting it done. D. Alberni It looked like you might need to clear a little bit there in order to get the equipment in and out. K. Jackson: Well, it wouldn't be bad if our daughter hadn't got married last year and I had it put in huge flower beds and laid stone patios. I really don't want tractor trailers driving over them. That's all flower beds and mother's big into flowers and that's right where her front window would be and all of this stuff. Page 8 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 J. Pachai: So what you found in looking for a smaller unit was that they didn't meet your needs structurally, and the pricing was very similar to the larger home that you found? K. Jackson: Yes. The prices, the single-wide was 14 and like 80 long and the price was still right around 29 . This one, I got a notice in fact from the lady - a young couple had been looking at it. It's one they had on the lot that was twenty-nine nine, and she thought she had that sold and then came back and decided on a larger model. And mother was going to order that with a couple of different things that she would have liked, and the girl called and said I can sell this one because they decided to go to a larger model. For twenty-nine nine it leaves her some of her income and her cash to go into something different. And it's something that will be a condition if she lives five years, or ten years, or fifteen years that we'll be able to sell and have it be solid enough to hook up to and sell it. J. Pachai: So it's not actually this unit that's showing here? K. Jackson: No, no . I 'm sorry. I was going to bring the floor plan of it and I don't have it. L. Raymond: This one is 980 square feet, and you said the one you're looking at now is - K. Jackson: 988. L. Raymond: Oh, it's only 8 foot difference. K. Jackson: Yes. It's 26 by 38. T. Jackson: I think on that paper there you show the size don't you? K. Jackson: I've got stuff. I have all kinds of stuff. T. Jackson: Right there on that yellow one . K. Jackson: And my mother has the floor plan because she was showing it to my brother. This is the one she was going to order and, since she doesn't have to, there won't be the extra cost. Because she was going to put in things that she liked, like the skylights. J. Pachai: So it won't be this one? K. Jackson: No, this is a different one. J. Pachai: Oh, it is? K. Jackson: I believe so . J. Pachai: Maybe so, but I think it's the same - K. Jackson: Oh, wait a second. Maybe I did change it. Maybe I did come down and get copies of that. Go back into this floor plan and I 'll tell you. Yes. That's it right there. J. Pachai: Okay, so this - K. Jackson: Wait a minute. Yes, that's it. I got to put my glasses on if I want to see. L. Raymond: The one we have is the one that - K. Jackson: That is the right one. J. Pachai: The drawing that we have is the right unit, but the sale paper is not. It says twenty- nine nine? K. Jackson: Yes. This is less than this one because see she was going to order it and put in skylights - Page 9 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 J. Pachai: So this number's wrong? It's just the dollar amounts that are wrong? K. Jackson: Yes. L. Raymond: The only thing that's different is the dollar amounts? K. Jackson: Yes. It will be less. L. Raymond: Okay. K. Jackson: The one that they have there they thought they had sold so instead of adding a custom cabinet to it and putting in skylights and having the fans pre-installed, she just won't have them. L. Raymond: Yes. K. Jackson: And part of the reason that Tom and I discussed the double-wide is it's important for us to be able to resell this and get rid of it when mother doesn't need it; whether she needs to go into a nursing home for some reason or actually move into my house, which she is death against for a lot of reasons. I get up at 4:30 in the morning. You know, we've got horses. I go out and do barn chores and we leave for work at 6 . And I go to bed at 9. And she doesn't like to get up until 9 or 10 in the morning and she sits up until 11 or 12 at night, and it's just really backwards hours for each of us. No matter how we do it. And she knows that that would be difficult for both of us. And besides that, I don't know about your mother. I love mine dearly, but she would drive me nuts in my house. And unless it's absolutely necessary, neither of us really want to put ourselves into that position. But she needs the support group of being there. But we need something we can get rid of. It is what she has and you feel funny saying it is inheritance, but it will be part of the basic inheritance when she's done. It will be sold. There's six of us children and I don't want my brother and sisters to say well, gee, you've got that there and now what do we do? Mother tied all of her money up into it. If she custom- built something and takes everything that she's got to custom build it, then I 'm stuck with a place that I can't get rid of because it's impossible to move, and five mad siblings because all of the inheritance is sitting in my side yard. And we don't want a permanent place there anyhow, you know, once she doesn't need it. And that's basically how we got into this mess. L. McElroy: The foundation is going to be a concrete slab? K. Jackson: They give two options. It can be a solid slab or it can be strip. If it's a slab, we would simply turn it into a patio type deal, whatever, along the edge of the woods, or put the basketball net down for a game, or do whatever. If it's strips, I would think they'd be easy enough to pop out with a dozer, if it's the plain strips. There's a description of how to do it - G. Senter: Are they like trench footers, Karel? T. Jackson: It shows a diagram of it there. K. Jackson: Yes, it's got a diagram of how the tie-downs - there's two different tie-downs. One is on the pad and one is on the strip. T. Jackson: It's right here. K. Jackson: Is the other strip with it? That show a pad. J. Pachai: The concrete runs along and then there's a - K. Jackson: Okay, that's the solid pad. There's one that shows the strip placement on it also . L. Raymond: What's the frontage of your lot? K. Jackson: Our road frontage is like 285 foot. Page 10 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 L. Raymond: See, one of the things we have to be concerned about when you start tallying about installing pads, concrete pads and so on, is whether somehow or other, through the back door, you end up with two houses on a lot. It doesn't have the frontage you see. And that's one of the concerns why, in the Zoning Code, it says that ECHO housing units shall be temporary and can't be there permanently. To avoid somehow slipping through the back door and putting in another house on a lot, you see, there's not enough frontage for it. That's why I ask you about that. So if a concrete pad is already there, that's a little different somewhat. I don't know if it's a big deal, but nevertheless it's a little different than see if you had other footings because the pad, once it's already there, it's pretty easy to build something else on it. K. Jackson: Did you find that strip? All they do is it's like six cement strips across instead of a solid pad. L. Raymond: Well, that helps. Because here it shows a concrete slab. It doesn't show any strips. Oh, okay. It doesn't show that on here . That's why I was asking. K. Jackson: I thought that was there along with it. I'm sorry. J. Pachai: It seems to me that by the time you get a vehicle in there, or a piece of equipment in to break that up and get it out it doesn't make much difference whether it's the strip configuration or whether it's the slab configuration. L. Raymond: Well, no, that wouldn't make any difference, but what I'm saying is supposing it's not broken up? The thing is there and is ready for a foundation for another structure, another home. It could be, you see, already there. And that's encouraging the development of another home on the place. J. Pachai: And the strips would be the same thing. L. McElroy: Well, wouldn't there be some limitations -- L. Raymond: Well I think there could be some limitations on that. J. Pachai: So my understanding of your concern is that the pad, if they were to take and keep it there for a patio, not necessarily the applicant, but if someone were to keep it there for a pad or for basketball or whatever - L. Raymond: It encourages - J. Pachai: --potential is there for - L. Raymond: That's right. J. Pachai: --or if somebody bought their home, just to put another twist on this, if somebody bought their home and they wanted to put an elder cottage there, the pad would already be there for them to do it. L. Raymond: Yes. But I got to watch out here because we're doing a Public Hearing. K. Jackson: Are you saying that you're afraid that they might have a kid that wants to put a house there and say, plop, here's my house. L. Raymond: Yes, yes. We got to watch out or we're going to cross over into our decision meeting here and I don't' want to do that. J. Pachai: I was just asking - L. Raymond: I know that. Page 11 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 J. Pachai: If I can ask George a question. Do you - George is the Code Enforcement Officer for the record - do you see a problem with that, or is this something that's checked on frequently enough and that you have the authority to deal with it? G. Senter: If he tries to put another house on the pad after the mobile home has been removed? J. Pachai: Yes. G. Senter: He doesn't get a permit to do that. J. Pachai: Right, G. Senter: In order to put the house up he has to have enough frontage so he'd have to come back to the ZBA so it would be right back in your lap anyway. J. Pachai: Exactly. So you're saying you don't see it as a big issue? Whether there's a pad or what else. G. Senter: That's right. I don't. L. Raymond: Well, I said I didn't think it was a big thing, but it's just something worth noting. J. Pachai: And I definitely agree with you . D. Alberni Doesn't the ECHO require that the foundation be tore out? L. Raymond: Yes. Everything is to be removed. D. Alberni So you can't leave the slab. G. Senter: It says that the ground should be returned to what it was before - D. Albern: It's got to go when you're done. You can't have a basketball court put in. L. McElroy: I think though once there it's -- someone could say well, you know we meant to take it out, but this is expensive and - D. Alberni If the usage were monitored - I don't know what you guys have as an enforcement mechanism to force them to take it out afterwards. L. Raymond: The enforcement mechanism is right behind us here. K. Jackson: I would think a lot of that would be so it wouldn't be an eyesore, you wouldn't have a block wall, crawl space type thing left. G. Senter: That's what the Town Use Regulations say, Karel. It says it has to be returned to a state before it was put in there. So that's a play on words on how you word it. It's what the regulations say. S. Thane: It says, yes, during the 90 days after the ECHO unit is gone the ECHO unit . including its foundation shall be removed and the site shall be restored so that no visible evidence of the ECHO unit and its accessory elements remains. And if it's not, then the Town can remove it and charge the owner. D . Alberni There's the enforcement mechanism. It doesn't make any difference what they use for a foundation. It's got to go anyways. S. Thane: It's got to go . Page 12 of 25 c Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 J. Pachai: Well, if we can explore this just a little bit further, do you have a desire to keep the pad there afterwards? K. Jackson: Some. J. Pachai: Would it serve a useful purpose? T. Jackson: It would be nice. It's right next to our flower bed. J. Pachai: Even if you didn't use it for a patio, you could use it for a garage is my thinking. K. Jackson: It could be a big greenhouse. I could drive my husband nuts and buy more tools. J. Pachai: So what I was thinking was couldn't they come back - if they cut up the tie-downs, couldn't they come back for a variance to leave the pad? L. Raymond: Well, of course. As George mentioned, you always can come back for a variance, but he'd have to apply to George first for whatever they want to do. Then he'd deny it and what you're appealing is his denial. J. Pachai: What they would want to do is leave the pad, George would deny it, and then they would come to us for the variance to keep the pad there for a different purpose. L. Raymond: Well, wait a minute. George would only, if they are going to build something on the pad that requires a permit, that's the only time you would go to him for a permit. Otherwise, if you don't remove the pad, then I guess, what, George, you would have to send them a violation, wouldn't you? G. Senter: It would be a violation. If they put a fireplace on the pad, or a swing set or a couple of chairs, there's not much you can do about that. It doesn't require a building permit for that. J. Pachai: Right, and what I'm thinking in terms of that the Code requires that the ground be returned to its original condition. So the only way that could keep the pad for another use is if they were cited and then requested a variance based on being cited for not removing the pad? L. Raymond: Yes. George could cite them for a violation and they can appeal the violation citation. G. Senter: That's right. K. Jackson: Or apply for a variance and say I'd like to put a greenhouse on it. L. Raymond: Yes, but you can't apply for a variance directly to us. You have to apply - K. Jackson: Yes, go to George and he can deny it and - G. Senter: What you could do, according to NCA 225 , it says you could put that mobile home on compacted soil as long as it meets the 2000 psf. K. Jackson: Yes, we were discussing that. G. Senter: And you put the tie-dows in with augers. You only need four on each side, and the ones on the corner would be two foot in with a 45 degree angle; the ones in the middle are vertical. And you don't have to worry about it. If you want to pour concrete for a patio, you could do it later. J. Pachai: You save money by taking that approach, the cheaper approach. G. Senter: And then you wouldn't need the pad. K. Jackson: Yes. And that's a real protected area anyhow. Page 13 of 25 ' Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 else; we're on our own on that one. So if you've got any last-minute items, you or the guest here wants to make or comments you want to make, now's the time . K. Jackson: Yes, I learned something being a contractor - find out how to do this. Do it cheaper - D. Alberni I'm interested that there's not too many places doing this. Looks like a - L. Raymond: No. J. Pachai: You know, there were a number of modular outfits that I believe were offering these ten years ago, but I don't think they took off right away. Now is the time that they should be having these built and ready to be shipped. D. Alberni Yes, I think the off-the-shelf version that you could mass produce in a pretty cheap way is an opportunity, you know - K. Jackson: Every place we went - I said why isn't somebody building something? My mother isn't the only 77-year old woman who wants something reasonable. L. Raymond: Mr. Stoyell told me that the whole thing is really changing. He said it's a constantly changing situation over what it was ten years ago and he said with the County going into it now versus what they did buying these units ten years ago, he's not sure they would even do the same thing. And he says the answer he had, and also the guy in Albany, is pretty much in agreement: turmoil. Everybody sees them change and nobody has any solid answers as to why people aren't building more of these units. I guess it's very complicated and they don't seem to know why. K. Jackson: Well, everyone in this room is to a point where you've got parents who are all of a sudden going to be in this situation, and it's going to be a really short period of time and - L. Raymond: Well, mine have gone so - K. Jackson: Think of a nursing home; they don't need to be there. L. Raymond: Yes. Okay. All right. So we close the Hearing then. It's 8 * 25 when we close the Hearing and will have a little pause here and then get ready to open our Decision Meeting. (There was a four-minute break observed. ) L. Raymond: All right. So all of you, being experience Board members, know what we got to do. We have our five questions, and the first one, we might as well plunge right into , is "Is this going to affect the neighborhood character?" if we approve this variance . And my having viewed the site, and I know all the rest of you have, so I will say it right off the cuff, no, I don't think it's going to affect the neighborhood character. I can't see where the structure goes in is going to in anyway detract from the other structures or the other homes. P. Gaines: Me either. J. Pachai: I would agree with Lyle in that in going down Wood Road and looking there are a couple of clusters of homes that are permanent. This would be temporary. And going down Elm Street on the north side I believe that there's a couple of clusters of homes there. Fairly tight together, as tight together as you're planning on - L. Raymond: Remember, John, we're not in a Public Hearing anymore. J. Pachai: Yes, let me restate that. They are as tightly packed as the Jacksons are planning on placing this to their - the ECHO house to their home which, in fact, is not that tightly packed. I think it's 75 feet away according to the drawing. L. Raymond: I would just say that Finding # 1 is that we do not see any impact on the neighborhood . Okay. Page 16 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 J. Pachai: I think we have substantiated it. L. Raymond: Yes, I don't think we hardly have to. Just to say no impact. Okay, so the next question here is the question of alternatives, which we have to ask ourselves, is " Does the applicant have alternatives by which they wouldn't have to have a variance?" And I think we've explored that in the Public Hearing on the record quite well that if there are alternatives, that they are unfeasible . P. Gaines: They would be much more expensive. L. Raymond: Yes, although technically we're not supposed to pay any attention to the cost, on the record. Our Code doesn't say anything about costs. And technically we're not supposed to pay any attention to that, but obviously we do some. J. Pachai: I think feasibility cost is something that makes something feasible as well as everything else - L. Raymond: Yes, yes, I know. J. Pachai: --and there are options that are even less expensive than the option that they are asking for the variance for that would not require a variance, but it is not feasible given the potential future needs of the resident of the ECHO housing in that the smaller single-wide trailer, which is an option, that would cost less, that would meet the square footage requirement is has a narrow corridor and that actually probably should clarify for the record it's personal knowledge that I'm bringing into this as opposed to information from the Hearing, and I think for about 20 - it would cost about $28,000 for a single-wide that met the square footage restriction. That's based on a call to a couple of mobile home retailers. So yes there are options available that meet the square footage requirement, that are actually would actually cost less, but the structural design is impractical for the needs of the applicant's - L. McElroy: Meaning it wouldn't accommodate a wheelchair turn. J. Pachai: Right. Let me restate that. That the potential future needs, which is something that really needs to be considered in ECHO housing. It doesn't make sense to not allow for the possibility of a wheelchair or at least a walker which requires about the same type of turning radius. P. Gaines: It also doesn't fit as well aesthetically. J. Pachai: Right. I agree. L. Raymond: Well, then, I 'm just trying to boil down what you were saying here John. Finding # 2 , yes, options are available that meet the square footage requirement, but they are impractical for future possible needs of the applicant . How's that? J. Pachai: Right. Impractical from a structural standpoint for fixture - L. Raymond: Okay, I'll add here "from a structural standpoint. " Is that all we need to say? I don't think we need to get into the cost. I think we can just let it go right there. It's the alternatives, why they aren't feasible. Is that agreeable with everyone? Now, the next question is is this question that we've handed around before, "Is it a substantial difference from what the Code requires? " Nine-hundred eighty-eight square feet vs. 750 and, as John has pointed out in our previous cases, we also can look at substantial difference in terms of does it depart from what's in the neighborhood, from what's there already? I think that my own opinion would be that no, there's no substantial difference on that basis in terms of, as we already indicated in the character of the neighborhood, but whether there's a substantial difference in terms of the square footage that they're asking, well, what would we consider substantial? I guess it's up to us. The substantial difference in terms of size. S. Thane: Up 30 percent. L. Raymond: Well, we used to talk about 30 percent, I know. Page 17 of 25 • Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 J. Pachai: Just for the sake of practical perspective, this room is about 10 feet or so by 20 some - so it's a difference than is smaller than this room. L. Raymond: I was just looking here - 750, take 30 percent and that's about 225. You add 225 - well, that's just about what it is, a 30 percent difference increase. And some kind of rule of thumb we've worked at, for lack of something better, is to use that as somewhat of a criteria in the past. If it was a 50 percent increase or a 60 percent increase, that would be substantially different when you looked at it than as if it was going to be that. And we've done that what, with frontage and we've done it with other stuff as to a - J. Pachai: I think it varies with the particular area that we're discussing. L. Raymond: I think so, too . Yes. I think so. So, I don't know, shall we say that "No, there's not a substantial difference? We can say no substantial difference - do we want to mention that since it doesn't exceed 30 percent for some reason? Do we want to put that in there - what we used to determine that? Maybe we better. J. Pachai: I'd almost rather not start that - L. Raymond: And of course it would tie us down on the record too as something we've done before. Although she's taking the record and our discussion of the remarks here which will be in the minutes. J. Pachai: Yes, but I really don't feel that it's necessary to even factor that in. When we stop and look at the distance that is from the road, and we look at that home versus one that is 200 square feet smaller, I don't think that even a contractor would be able to accurately gauge that there's a difference between - I mean if they were side by side, certainly. But look at one that is 750 square feet - drive down the road and look at another one that is 950 square feet - I don't think that at that distance from the road I don't think that a contractor's going to see or be able to recognize the difference. L. Raymond: Yes, probably. J. Pachai: And I think that that is the way to consider the significance. L. Raymond: I think a lot of it has to do with setting. You're in a very rural setting. J. Pachai: Exactly. L. Raymond: And if you were doing, say, right in McLean, among the houses, or in Peruville right where the houses are all close together, then adding a couple hundred square feet might show up considerably in the view of the neighbor. Way more than where they are. But then they're in a different zone. Because if you go into McLean or Peruville you're in a residential zone as we got it classed. And they're not. And so I think again I would agree with that that there's no substantial - All right. Well put that as a finding. Finding #4 has to do with the environmental affects. Well, of course, for the record we say it's a Type II type of thing and so it's exempt from the State Environmental Review. I note, by the way, that the Planning Board, in their Minutes of the last meeting, has caught on and now they've got a statement instead of going through that long reading of the Environmental Impact Statement. The other thing would be the agricultural impact, and we found out after the last meeting, since I was new at it, that this is something that the Planning Board supposedly has already done in terms of the agricultural impacts - the impact statement. Finally, in terms of environmental effects, outside of what the State asks, or outside of agricultural impacts, do we have any impacts we want to think of on our own? I ask that mostly for the record, rhetorically. Because we can certainly look at things otherwise in terms of the Town. I can't think of any. J. Pachai: I have a question - I always have a question don't I? I 'm sorry. L. Raymond: Well, John, this is what your contribution is. J. Pachai: That's what I'm here for. Page 18 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 L. Raymond: Yes. J. Pachai: When you said that the Planning Board already dealt with the ag impact, now I forget the phrasing of the requirements regarding the Ag Impact Statement. Does it deal with actions, like if a municipal board takes an action? L. Raymond: It says the Board shall determine, as I recall, going back over it. I think the last time I wasn't reading the directions good enough and I interpreted board to mean because we were acting on it as being us. And then it turned out that it didn't have to be us because of the Planning Board has already looked at this and they've done the Ag Impact Statement, and so that, again, that's part of the Site Plan Review and so - J. Pachai: What I was looking at was we're taking an additional action. L. Raymond: No, I don't know. Are we? J. Pachai: Or was the size of the home actually factored in when - L. Raymond: They approved everything except the size, with the exception of the size . J. Pachai: And even if they did, they couldn't approve or grant the variance, so they weren't taking the action relative to the size. So I guess what I'm getting at, just to make sure we don't get caught with an incomplete set of documents, it seems to me we are taking an action which is an action other than what the Planning Board has done - L. Raymond: I see what you mean - J. Pachai: And that we should probably consider ag impact because our action, like I just said, is a different action than that of the Planning Board. L. Raymond: If we have to do that, then we have to go back, as I recall, well have to dig it out because I wasn't expecting to do that tonight. But I think it's within 500 feet. Any impact on agricultural lands within 500 feet, as I seem to recall. That's what it was. P. Gaines: The race track is in agricultural? L. Raymond: No . P. Gaines: The woods aren't agricultural? L. Raymond: No. S. Thane: What about Russ Demond? L. Raymond: Yes, he's renting land there. But I would point out that no one has showed up here tonight, nor have we received any communications from any adjoining agricultural owners indicating that they have concerns about this, and they've all been notified. Because Russ Demond is close enough so that I know that he got a notice about the impending action. I can just see all these senior citizens running their ATVs over his cornfield. He's had enough trouble with enough people who are not senior citizens. J. Pachai: I don't see where it would or wouldn't be any impact. L. Raymond: Why don't we just state for the record that there's no evidence that we have seen that there's any agricultural impact and that will just let people know on the record that at least we thought about it. And so the last finding is the old one, "Is it self-created?" And that's one we've struggled around with. What does self-creation mean? Self-creation means did the applicant set themselves up in such a way so that they deliberately had to ask for a variance? And in this case, I would say no, because how could they anticipate this? And the fact is that if they can't find something suitable, how can they say they anticipated the size? That's what we're dealing with here. Page 19 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 How can we say they anticipated that, that they couldn't find the size? There's nothing in the Hearing we had that suggested that, that they started out with the idea that they couldn't find one of the right size. This developed as they were researching it. L. McElroy: Right, in fact the record really documents their efforts to comply with the Code. L. Raymond: Yes, it certainly does. L. McElroy: That was their original intention. L. Raymond: Yes, that's right. There was no intention. So I would say, no, it was not self- created in this case. Because we have said it was in some others, but in this case it was not. Okay, so that's the end of the questions. I would make a motion that we approve the granting of the variance to the Jacksons . And I guess that's it. No conditions. So I 'll make that as a motion. Anyone want to second? P. Gaines: Second. L. Raymond: Pat seconds it. Okay. Joan, will you call the roll for the voting? J. Pachai: Call me last, Joan. S. Thane: Oh, no . J. Fitch: I'm going around the table clockwise. Pat Gaines? P. Gaines: Aye . J. Fitch: Lisa? L. McElroy: Aye . J. Fitch: Steve? S. Thane: Aye . J. Fitch: Lyle? L. Raymond: Aye . J. Fitch: John? J. Pachai: Okay, I will say aye. And that's with the understanding that it would have passed anyways even if I had abstained. J. Fitch: It's a moot point. J. Pachai: There was a concern because I am distantly related - something like that. J. Fitch: Then do you want to abstain? J. Pachai: I don't really see the need to abstain. L. Raymond: Well, the thing is that if somebody wanted to challenge it, it wouldn't make any difference because the rest of us have outvoted you already anyway. J. Fitch: It's unanimous. Everybody responded aye. Page 20 of 25 . A Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 L. Raymond: Okay. Everybody said aye so it's passed. This becomes Action # 1 of 2002 . L. Raymond: I have to write this thing up, a summary of the fact that we passed on it, and give it to the Town Clerk. I have five days, and IM probably get it in tomorrow. And George can't act on it to give you permit until I put that in to the Town Clerk. Discussion of Ouarterly Meeting L. Raymond: We have another item of business that we've got to discuss, so the meeting will continue for us. And that is, the quarterly meeting. Do we want to cancel the quarterly meeting next week? We can do it easily enough. All we have to do is put a notice on the door. Or do we want to hold it? Now, there's one thing that we talked about doing and that is, given what's gone on tonight and what's gone on with the last case, do we want to draft a letter to the Town Board suggesting that they re-visit the Zoning Ordinance and talk about revising the Zoning Ordinance in terms of a whole bunch of things? In terms of the ECHO housing units and, if we do, then the question is what do we put in that letter . Now we can do that right here tonight if you want to stay around a few minutes. It won't take too long. Or, we can use that as the grist for a short quarterly meeting next week on Tuesday if you want to do it that way. So I can do it either way. I'll leave it up to you guys. J. Pachai: If I can go first - I would like to have a little time to assemble my thoughts on it. If we're going to draft some sort of a letter, or at least come up with points for a letter that you would draft - L. Raymond: It doesn't matter. I think it's something we will all want to sign. J. Pachai: I agree. I really think that - I would like, personally, to sit back and take up all the factors that we've had to deal with, look at the problems that the applicants have had, just kind of organize my thoughts on this, and then maybe meet so that it doesn't turn into, at least on my part, a rambling session. Everybody else may have their ideas together. L. Raymond: Lisa, you had something - L. McElroy: I was just going to say, Lyle, so you're quite resolved that a letter should be drafted? L. Raymond: I think that a letter should be drafted. I think given what we have experienced the 1st two meetings, I think that - and given the problems that the applicants have demonstrated that they've run into, I think it's something we should do . J. Pachai: That's the other thing I 'd live given more time for. I am not convinced that there are not options available. L. Raymond: Does it matter? That's the question I 'm going to raise right now. Does it matter? Who cares? P. Gaines: Why does size matter so much? J. Pachai: I think it does - not necessarily the 750 square feet, but you need to have some sort of a limitation. L. Raymond: I would agree with that but - S. Thane: I think the 750 is probably too small. But I think you have to make it clear to them that this is temporary. Like the problem with the foundation; this all has to be removed, so let's not be putting in 2000 SF ECHO housing because it has to get out of there. P. Gaines: It seems like if it is clear that it has to be temporary, then it's their problem. You think they'll come back for another variance anyway? Page 21 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 S. Thane: It could turn into our problem. P. Gaines: Yes. J. Pachai: The consideration - one of the considerations that I'm giving is - I can't remember. I started thinking about what you were just saying and I got off on an intense thought based on that and that was basically to get that one out of the way. But it becomes George's problem initially and it becomes a legal issue that's between George and the courts if they don't get the item out of the way. S. Thane: And I think it's almost a disservice to the citizens of the Town to allow something that to become a problem. L. Raymond: What I just passed out to you is - I went to that AARP and I pulled out of it these items. I call them topics to consider and there's a whole list here of things we might consider suggesting to the Town Board that they might want to pay attention to . J. Pachai: Oh, I do remember the other thing, and it kind of ties in with the type of footer or foundation that the unit would go on so it's actually a mix here. First of all, ECHO housing is not only for seniors. It typically is allowed for - L. Raymond: That depends. That depends. That's one of the things that this AARP Bulletin raised. And that's why I have it down here - eligible persons is a question. Do we want to restrict it in the zoning code to just the elderly? Do we want to say adults only? No kids in case there's some there? Or do we want to say they got to be related to the owners? Should that be in the Code? That's something we might want to suggest to the Town Board for them to consider. J. Pachai: And that's one of the reasons that I'm bring this up. Because when you look at, say, you have a son or daughter who is disabled who is somewhat self-sufficient but needs to be nearby and you want to give them the independence of an ECHO-type unit, then you maybe talking 40 years or so. So then you start needing to look at well, is this foundation or pad or whatever you're tying the structure down to - is it going to hold up for that amount of time? Even a senior. People are living to be 90, 100 years old, and if they come in at 62 and move into one of these, you still could be looking at 30 years - S. Thane: I do think, though, you're getting away from what an ECHO building is for. It says right in the name "elder." It's an elder situation. Perhaps another category needs to be created that would take into account some of the things you just talked about. But I can see that if you aren't somewhat restrictive on size and lots and foundations and all that sort of thing, people are going to be coming in here for other variances. I would now like to move in my married children, and pretty soon you have apartment houses there. And unrelated people living, and it's not so temporary anymore, and people begin to think that the residence is inherited and can be passed down through several generations. So I just think we need to be careful about getting away from what ECHO stands for. J. Pachai: Right, and this is why I think we need to look at things a little more. L. Raymond: I thought that AARP Bulletin was excellent in that regard. Even though it's a little bit dated, the stuff is so generic it doesn't matter. J. Pachai: If you read the definition of the ECHO unit in our Code, it says and occupied by elderly or disabled relatives. So since that is in our Code, and since we do want to make recommendations, I think bringing it up and talking about it is something that needs to be done. I don't think that - S. Thane: I have no problem with that we shouldn't discuss it. I just think that we have to be careful about what sort of latitude we start - L. Raymond: And just remember, we're not deciding. All we're doing is suggesting to the Town Board things they may want to consider. Page 22 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 J. Pachai: And since it currently is allowed for disabled relatives, we may be needing to talk about either changing that or allowing a more structurally sound type of attachment to the soils. L. Raymond: Yes, they mention in their, for instance, do we want to talk about whether it's a one- or two-person unit. The other thing is, you're saying, do we want to say restricted to no more than two persons. S. Thane: It says it now. It says an ECHO unit shall not be occupied by more than two persons. L. Raymond: So you've got that already in there. P. Gaines: Does it mostly then come down to size? L. Raymond: Well - S. Thane: I think it's worth discussing. L. Raymond: One of the things about size, if you look in that Bulletin, they've got a couple pages here with all the diagrams in there, all the lots. One of the things they were apparently concerned about, and I was talking with John about this, is how much of a lot is covered in relation to the size of the main house? L. McElroy: Absolutely. A thousand square feet on the lot that we dealt with tonight is one thing. A thousand square feet on my neighbor's property or in downtown Ithaca or right here in Town, that's a pretty big structure. L. Raymond: Yes, it is. S. Thane: That does significantly change the character of it. L. McElroy: I think there should be some equation to take into consideration, size and lot coverage. L. Raymond: Well, apparently, I 'm looking in the AARP as you'll notice, the diagrams see to be - yes, that's it right there. They seem to be aiming at about no more than 50% in general of the main house . P. Gaines: So the ECHO house should not be more than 50% the size of the - is that what you're saying? L. Raymond: Yes. I'm saying, from the diagrams it seems to be in the examples they are giving they seem to be somewhat aiming at that. J. Pachai: And that's footprint as opposed to actual square feet of living space? L. Raymond: Yes. L. McElroy: Do they also talk about a percentage of the lot? Is that the same thing. L. Raymond: No, it's not the same thing. The percentage of the lot covered vs. the size of the building vs. the size of the main house is two different things. L. McElroy: I think the percentage of the lot covered is more important than - I mean, for example, in some towns you have this problem of the zoning not catching up quickly enough with people building huge houses on small lots. Then if you way, well, put an ECHO house in there it just can't be more than 50% of that enormous thing that you already have on your lot. S. Thane: But you still have to conform to setbacks, boundary setbacks and things like that. P. Gaines: You think that takes care of that? Page 23 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 S. Thane: Well, that would certainly restrict the size. You can't be within a foot of the boundary line because that's what the Code says. L. McElroy: There's still the problem of people building right up to the lot line. S. Thane: Well they still can have variances to do that. They can't just build right up to a boundary line. L. Raymond: (Glenn Morey comes in.) We're hard at work talking about possibly writing you guys a letter about revisiting the Zoning Ordinance in terms of ECHO housing, given what we've turned up in the hearings for these last two cases. G. Morey: Educate me. Isn't the ECHO housing a County rule and regulation? L. Raymond: No. It's us. G. Morey: So you want to increase it because of the last two? L. Raymond: Well, not necessarily. We're just saying that everything is up kind of to be discussed. And given the problems we've turned up here in the last two cases, we're considering right now an extended meeting because we've already decided on the case here. L. McElroy: We're turning up a lot of issues. L. Raymond: As to whether we want to draw up a formal letter to you guys indicating that maybe you might want to go back and look at this whole thing again, what we've got written up in the Zoning Code. Size is certainly an important factor, but there are a number of other items here, too, that we are looking at. J. Pachai: What I would recommend at this point, since everybody seems to be into this, that we wind this down fairly quickly, because I'm worried about time myself, but the idea is that we really have some personal momentum. We can pull together what we think are the important factors - L. Raymond: --that the Town Board ought to consider. J. Pachai: --and then bring those back, come in next week and - L. Raymond: We can do that, or we can just - I could just draft something using some of this as background and circulate around to you guys and you tell me what changes you want to make and when we get it to where we want it we11 pass it on to the Town Board. We don't need a meeting for that. J. Pachai: I think it would be - I think we'd have more from the members if - L. Raymond: --we did it in a face-to-face type meeting. J. Pachai: --we came up with our own list, basically, as you have here, and with our own personal twist to them, and bring them into a meeting and discuss them. L. Raymond: Well, all right. John is proposing that we keep our quarterly meeting for next week and that we use this as an Agenda Now how about the rest of you guys? Do you want to put this kind of to an informal vote here? L. McElroy: I have a small problem in that Tuesday nights we have to get a babysitter because my husband has a class. I think I remember, Pat, you can't meet on Monday nights, is that right? P. Gaines: It's the second and third Mondays. L. Raymond: We originally agreed on the third Tuesday every three months after I polled you guys. Page 24 of 25 Verbatim Transcript, Town of Groton ZBA Public Hearing 12 March 2002 L. McElroy: And that's okay for when it's the third Tuesday, but when it's two Tuesdays in a row - L. Raymond: I gotcha, I gotcha. L. McElroy: But it's not impossible. I mean if that's what works best for everyone. L. Raymond: We would have done this case next week, except for Joan couldn't be here next week on that Tuesday so that's how come we're holding this meeting tonight. Steve? S. Thane: Next Tuesday? Sure, that would be fine with me. I have no problem. My youngest is almost 18. L. Raymond: And you would like to do it that way? S. Thane: I agree with John. I think a face-to-face would be the way to go . I know I focus better. L. Raymond: Pat? P. Gaines: Fine. S. Thane: But a different night would be okay, too. I mean I 'm - L. Raymond: If we have it on a different night and do an official meeting, you know what we have to do. We've got to put a notice in the newspaper and wait for five days and since we've already announced our quarterly meetings, if we didn't hold it all we had to do was put a notice on the Town Hall door. If we change the night then we're into putting out a notice again. L. McElroy: Let's leave it Tuesday. L. Raymond: I don't want anyone made uncomfortable with this if we're going to do it that way. Okay, agreed that we're going to meet then at our quarterly meeting next Tuesday night, and the Agenda will be - it's the 19' - will be a drafting of some kind of letter to the Town Board with our thoughts on as to what they might want to consider. And of course the Town Board is going to do whatever they want. We're going to tell them based on what we think we've heard in the last two cases we had that there's some reason to revisit what's in our Zoning Ordinance. S. Thane: Let the record reflect that Glenn was smiling. J. Pachai: We might be looking at a number of additional cases in the near future. L. Raymond: That's one of the things that we're wondering about. We're trying to get ourselves out of work, too, that's right. All right. Okay, with that then - well hold it right here and since it's a quarterly meeting the public can come if they want. But I suspect it will be mostly us. It probably could be right here in this room if we want to have it a little more intimate, I guess. Adjournment L. Raymond: All right. Shall we close the meeting? J. Pachai: I so move. S. Thane: I second. L. Raymond: Everybody in favor? (All Board members present indicated in the affirmative .) Okay. We're closed. (The time was 9: 05 PM). Jo . Fitch , Recording Secretary 3/ 26/02 Page 25 of 25