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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2001-11-12 Elder cottage larger than allowed i - t TOWN OF GROTON ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Public Hearing & Meeting - Monday, 12 November 2001 - 8 p . m . Board Members (*absent) Others Present Lyle Raymond, Chairman Joan Fitch, Recording Secretary John Pachai Anthony Zarachowitz, Applicant Steve Thane Lisa McElroy Patricia Gaines Public Present Chris Sperger, Betty Ann Sperger, Glenda Horton, John Wood, Robert Walpole I The Public Hearing was opened at 8 p. m. by Chairman Lyle Raymond. L. Raymond: Okay. First I have to read into the public record the Notice of Public Hearing which everyone has already seen. NOTICE OF PUBLIC HEARING, TOWN OF GROTON ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS. Please take notice that the Zoning Board of Appeals of the Town of Groton, County of Tompkins, State of New York, will hold a public hearing on November 12, 2001 at 8 PM at the Town Hall, 101 Conger Boulevard, Groton, NY, for the purpose of considering an appeal for a variance by Anthony Zarachowitz, 292 William Street, Groton, New York, to site an Elder Cottage Housing Opportunity (ECHO) unit that is larger than is allowed under the Groton Land Use and Development on a new home lot at 923 Spring Street Extension (Tax Map #25- 1 -11 . 2). The appeal specifically relates to Section 320. 3(a) of the Land Use and Development Code, which states that ECHO units shall not exceed 750 square feet in total floor area. . Signed: Lyle Raymond, Chairman, Zoning Board of Appeals. I'm assuming, since they didn't leave the record here, that you had paid the fee for the appeal. Tony Z. : The fee is sitting in the envelope right here. There wasn't anyone here today. L. Raymond: Oh, okay. Tony Z. : You would like it? L. Raymond: Yes, yes. John, come on in. (John Pachai arrives. ) I just read the announcement for the hearing. Yes, we have to show that the fee's been paid before we can proceed with the hearing. And I will turn it over to the Town Office as Chair. Tony Z. : Okay, Page 1 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: All right. Fee paid. I'll put that under here. That takes care of that little item there. And we'd like to introduce ourselves. I'm Lyle Raymond. I'm Chairman of the ZBA. I live over on Old Stage Road, J. Pachai: John Pachai, ZBA Member. I apologize for being late, but we've got a medical thing going on with my father-in-law, so I'm scrambling around. But that's no excuse. Sorry, I'm late. Tony Z. : Not a problem. S. Thane: Steve Thane, ZBA Member. I also live on Old Stage Road. L. McElroy: Lisa McElroy, and I live in McLean. L. Raymond: (Pat Gaines arrives. ) Pat, we just read the hearing announcement and we're just introducing ourselves as ZBA members. Do you want to introduce yourself before you sit down? P. Gaines: I'm Pat Gaines. L. Raymond: And you live - P. Gaines: I live on Cobb Street in the Village of Groton. L. Raymond: Okay. There's a chair over there for you. I have some introductory remarks which I usually make . Steve already has one here, but give one to Joan. The principal purpose of the public hearing is to hear from the Appellant, and any other interested parties, on this appeal. ZBA member will ask questions on what is being proposed to ensure that they understand the nature of what is being proposed, and why a variance is being requested. The Zoning Board of Appeals must consider two basic things in deciding upon an appeal for a variance from area or dimension regulations in the Code. These are (1) the benefit to the applicant, and (2) any harmful effects on the health, safety, and general welfare of the neighborhood and the Town if the variance is granted. The ZBA is charged with weighing or balancing these interests. At the close of the Hearing, the ZBA will either (1) immediately reconvene to make an immediate decision, or (2), defer its decision until a later date, as provided for in the Town Code. The decision session is open to the public, but no further testimony will be taken after the Hearing is closed. Page 2 of 32 Town of Groton I Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 The Zoning Board of Appeals must consider five questions in making a decision on an area or dimension variance appeal as required by State Law and the Groton Town Code. These are: (1) impacts on neighborhood character, (2) whether feasible alternatives exist that do not require a variance, (3) how substantial the difference is between what the applicant is requesting and the Groton Code, (4) environmental impacts, and (5) whether the need for a variance was self-created. And that ends the chairman's statement into the public record here, and I also want to bring attention here to the fact that this is a matter of a Special Permit under the Groton Town Code which allows elder cottage units. However, they are only done under the Special Permit requirement. And so Special Permits are under the jurisdiction of the Planning Board, and the Planning Board has already entertained Mr. Zarachowitz and his request to site an elder cottage, and they looked at the situation and, according to the Minutes and decision that we have here, they've said they did not have any objections, except that they did not meet the Code because the elder cottage unit that was being requested exceeds the size that the Code allows. So they said it would have to go back to Mr. Zarachowitz to appeal to the Zoning Board of Appeals to request a variance, if possible. So that is what the Planning Board has done, and so the Planning Board is therefore not able to proceed any further until we have made our deliberations on this matter, whichever way we decide. I have not seen any written communications that we have. Again, the Town Office was closed today and any written communications that would have been received are laid out here for us. So I'm assuming that we did not receive any written communications in regard to this case. So , with that, I think we're ready to perhaps listen to the Appellant's case first. After we hear his case, why any other statements from any other parties are going to be welcome. So we already have, Tony, obviously, the Minutes from the Planning Board so we have some idea of what you're up to . But maybe you might to reiterate that for the public record here as to where you're at. Tony Z. : I'd be more than happy to out of respect for everybody, even though all we're asking for is a variance on the size of the elder cottage or the unit that we're planning on putting in. I'll give you a little bit of history. We sold our home in the Village of Groton. It was a very - it was an unadvertised, very quick deal, unsolicited. Our home was not listed for sale and buyers from the downstate area happened to find us and we ended up following through with the purchase. One of the issues that we were concerned about that we were dealing with is my mother-in-law, my wife's mother, Phyllis Compton, who is 69 years old, was living in the apartment that we had in our home. It was a two-family home. Our major concern was to be able to find a place to have her go with us. We were under a very close deadline to complete the transaction on the sale of our home, so with Bob Walpole's assistance, even though we looked at a number of homes in the area, we didn't find anything that we really liked. One of the options was to find a parcel of land, find manufactured housing, and move on it. We had been contemplating having Phyllis apply through the Office of the Aging for Page 3 of 32 a• � Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 consideration to be put on the waiting list for an ECHO unit that Tompkins County provides. Tompkins County has either four or five units that are circulated. It was a great idea. It was a great option. Our biggest problem was we were under a timeline and we needed to do something. We really couldn't - we didn't have the time to wait until a unit became available or until her name came up in rotation. So , again, knowing that an ECHO unit or ECHO housing was an option in the Town of Groton as well as in Tompkins County, that was the direction that we made an attempt to pursue. We developed the property with the idea that we were going to put the ECHO unit in, or a ECHO unit in. L. Raymond: That's the pad that you built out back of the house that' s there now? Extending vertically out back? Tony Z. : Yes. The pad wasn't really the issue, Lyle . The issue for us was making sure that we could provide adequate water for that unit. Make sure that we could provide adequate electricity and that the electric service met Code, and met all the requirements for Code Enforcement, and also to be able to provide adequate septic system that was - the sewer system was designed by the County Health Department based on two living units being there. One for the three-bedroom home that we have, and the other one for - technically a two-bedroom unit - that would be the ECHO . The fact that we have a Certificate of Occupancy for the unit that we're in, the approval has come through. The septic system's been inspected. Everything's fine on the County level. Water system is fine . So we primarily designed all of the utilities to support this other unit. Because of the fact that we were not asking the County to put the unit in, we wanted to keep Phyllis Compton pretty much as close as we possible could. She is not an invalid. She does have some physical requirements that allows her to have a permanent handicapped parking permit. She personally meets all of the criteria because of the fact that she's a widow and she has been as close, next door, for the last five or six years to us, and my wife and I did not feel it would be in her best interest to try to find a location for her that would be anywhere from three blocks to miles away from where we were going to be. It was all a personal issue. It was also personal on our part because we were financing the whole project. The ECHO unit that is available through the County is 750 square feet. That meets the criteria. L. Raymond: And our Code was set up with that in mind. Tony Z. : That's correct. It's a single bedroom. They are wonderful units. The concern that we had was primarily financial. That unit is available for sale through some manufactured home distributors; the price is in the $42 , 000 range. L. Raymond: For a 750 - Tony Z. : For a 750 ECHO unit that is similar to the units that Tompkins County has in placement. Page 4 of 32 4 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: Except, in this case, you would not purchase it from the County. If you get it from the County, it would have been leased. Tony Z. : That is correct. If the County unit was placed, if we were selected through the rotation, if we had the time period to work within, the County would place it and we would be responsible for either providing the utilities or upgrading utilities to support the unit, and with the possibility of the rent falling back on the resident, in this case Phyllis Compton, and it's pro-rated based on economic situations. Being a widow, one of our other concerns was - and I 'll tell you, bottom line, she gets to the point where she has to make a choice of either paying for prescriptions or paying rent, well, guess what? Her health is definitely our concern. Rent would be an issue if we were paying $42 ,000 for a manufactured unit. A single-wide manufactured unit, 12 by 60, they are available, they are special orders. The special order units from Tollgate are priced in the neighborhood of $26 ,000 to $30,000 . That $26 ,000 to $30 ,000 is also more of a bite than we're capable of taking, or that we'd like to take, knowing full well that we'd end up picking up the freight for the housing expense in the event that she was not able to take care of that on her own. L. Raymond: Yes. Tony Z. : Bob Walpole of Walpole Real Estate helped, and we located a 1994 single-wide manufactured home. It is a 14 by 70 . It's presently set up but vacant in the Tollgate Park in Moravia. We have a purchase offer that's been accepted on that unit. The listing price for that unit was $ 15,000. That was something that we could consider. It's a 1994 . It's less than ten years old. It meets not only construction codes, but will support any questions regarding heating and cooling efficiency. R. Walpole : The only reason this thing became available was that this woman who bought it was 73 years old. She had her double-wide which is up at the Village of Moravia park sold. They were supposed to close on it the Friday before the twin towers tragedy. And at midnight, Thursday, she got a phone call saying we are just walking. She had already bought and paid for the new home. She didn't need two homes and she decided to stay with the double-wide. The home is in excellent condition . . . she was in a pickle, so her broker decided to put it back on the market for her. She' s going to stay in her double-wide . But the home is in excellent condition; there are no flaws in it. It's a 1994 with 980 square feet, 14 by 70 . L. Raymond: Well, the question I have, since the Code for ECHO housing units are assumed to be leased units. In this case, you're purchasing the unit and placing it there. Tony Z. : Yes. Page 5 of 32 L Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: So that makes a difference a little bit in how you look at this thing because you're going to own that rather than leasing it. It's supposed to be a temporary unit, as you know. Tony Z. : I understand that I 'd be going through this process every two years because presently the Town regulations indicate that this Special Use Permit has to be renewed every two years. L. Raymond: Right, right, right. Tony Z. : With that in mind, putting this unit in or trying to develop the property for this unit from the begmnmg, my concern was to make certain that it was not going to pose any concern to anybody in the Town. L. Raymond: But this unit will be kept then in a status that means it can be removed at any time? Tony Z. : Yes. The pad that's out there is a gravel pad. It does not have footers. Steve Morse, All Seasons Excavating, has been the excavator who is doing all the work for us. Steve's dad ran Tollgate Construction for years. Steve's been doing this work since he was 12 years old . Everything is being done to the most current standards that he is aware of. L. Raymond: Yes. One of our concerns, actually, is we have no doubt about the quality of the structure, but our concern would have more to do with the fact that you have two housing units on this lot and, therefore, because the Code provides an elder cottage, as you know, is only to be a leased temporary unit. And when the person who is using it is fmished with it, it needs to be removed. Tony Z. : Yes. L. Raymond: And our concern would be that there's a possibility that once that's got sited on there and you own it, that the next thing you know you got two housing units there - Tony Z. : Then it' s for sale . If Phyllis decides to relocate, or she passes away, that unit' s for sale . S. Thane: I guess I just have to say I've been looking through this and I don't find, Lyle, in here, where it says it has to be leased. L. Raymond: No, you're right. But it's assumed because they use the ECHO unit and it's based on the County - when the Code was enacted - it was based on the idea that the County was going to have those units for lease and, therefore, I think that's assumed. L. McElroy: That it's temporary. Page 6 of 32 4 � Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: It's temporary. Yes, that's right. It's temporary. That's assumed. When you say elder cottage unit, I know that's the correct interpretation. i Tony Z. : But also, the elder cottage concept is only available here in Tompkins County, and it actually started a State program. J. Pachai: The term has been around for a long time. It's nothing new nationally. And since the Code doesn't - I don't believe the Code specifically states anything relative to the County program, I don't see how we can marry anything relative to the County' s program to what we're using in respect to the term ECHO . In our definitions it just says "a small, self- contained removable dwelling accessory to a principle dwelling for the use of and occupied by elderly or disabled relatives of the occupants of the principle dwelling. " That's really all we can go by. L. Raymond: That definition tells it all right there. It indicates it's going to be a temporary type structure. Tony Z. : And in this case, I know that I'm the pacesetter on this program. I'm not aware that the Town has ever had to deal with this issue . The Planning Board or the ZBA has not had to deal with a personally financed ECHO unit. J. Pachai: Actually we have in a case we dealt with in '92 with the Hydes where a garage was converted; I think that was an ECHO unit. We did have one on LaFayette Hill there. S. Thane: Champlin. Tony Z. : Champlin was a County unit. L. Raymond: Right. That' s right. J. Pachai: There's another one though that the people never followed through on. So we have dealt with the issue but not where there was a square footage condition. L. Raymond: Actually, Tony, you've laid out the situation pretty well here. I guess one other question would be, since we have to consider what alternatives might be available to you - I mean, at the present time, are you still living in the house in the Village? Tony Z. : No . We were living at 923 Spring Street and Phyllis is staying with us. Page 7 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: So she is being taken care of now, temporarily? Tony Z. : Yes, she is. L. Raymond: Okay. Other than that, your alternatives, other than that, would have to be that you'd have to live as you are now, I assume, or something like that would be the only alternative to putting in that unit. Tony Z. : Yes. L. Raymond: Or, as you said, waiting to purchase a house that has enough space as you had before on William Street. Tony Z. : Right, J. Pachai: Tony, have you given any consideration to a flag lot? Tony Z. : No , I haven't. J. Pachai: It would most likely that you put in a separate dwelling septic, but your returns on it might be better than on just selling the trailer. I realize that it also looked to me like, although I couldn't find anything definitive, it looked to me like towards the back of the lot there might be - is there some wet areas there? Tony Z. : There's a wet area down below. J. Pachai: I know the Federal wetlands on the wet areas map has a lot of stuff going on in that area, but I wasn't sure what your depth - Tony Z. : Deep, deep. J. Pachai: So there's enough depth there anyways. I see that on the drawing that there's enough depth there to cover that anyways. L. Raymond: Are you familiar with the term flag lot? Tony Z. : I'm familiar with it, yes. Page 8 of 32 C � Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 . L. Raymond: So , in that case then, however, probably they wouldn't want to have the unit that close to the main house . J. Pachai: That's an issue . That's why I was wondering if he had given consideration to whether that would be a problem. Tony Z. : Cost-wise, yes. L. Raymond: He'd have to have a separate septic system and well and the whole works. J. Pachai: But in considering options it's something to consider because, like I say, your return in the end could be - R. Walpole : Not only does it drop off, it goes down into the wet area and then it comes back up. L. Raymond: I noticed that. Yes, I did. R. Walpole : If you were to go into the flag lot situation where you were leaving 150 feet with the original house and taking up at least an acre, you're going to have to go back in there about 325 feet - you're down in. You're down into the wet area. L. Raymond: Yes. R. Walpole: And so you're going to be - the Health Department regulations are fairly clear, because that's live water. We've run into this problem before, and they don't want a septic system - pre- existing they'll go with. But if you're establishing one, you have to stay back 200 feet from the live stream. J. Pachai: 100 feet. R. Walpole: Yes, 100 feet. Anyway they don't like it. Tony Z. : The other option would be to take a senior citizen out of the area, away from family and off someplace where they'd - J. Pachai: It may be misunderstood what Lyle read there. It's other ways of achieving the same result. In other words, you can build a square house, you can build a round house, but you're still building a house. It's not whether you build it here or in the next county. Page 9 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: Now the house you have sited on there, which is a manufactured unit, I notice, that is a rather small unit so it's not big enough for what you need. Is there some reason why you're not putting a unit on there, a regular house that would include room enough for your mother-in-law? Tony Z. : Lyle, we had a signed purchase offer on October 1st and we had to be out of our home on November 1st. We didn't have time. We didn't have time to do a stick-built. That was the option that presented itself at the time and was financially attractive to me. You run with what you can get your hands on. We were running out of time, we were running out of weather; we'd love to finish doing some grading work and some dozer work, but Steve said it's like spreading peanut butter out here. We ought to wait until spring. L. Raymond: I understand from reading the Planning Board Minutes that you do not consider that' s going to be your permanent home. Tony Z. : No, that's very true. We're planning on finding another parcel of land and build a larger home. L. Raymond: And that would include space for your mother-in-law? Tony Z. : No , that would include, by me purchasing this 1994 manufactured home, that would be taking that unit with us and putting it on the next property. However, who knows what the economy looks like. There's a number of economic factors. There's a number of sociological factors that are involved. Our intentions are not to make that our home for the rest of our lives. Another plan went down today. L. Raymond: Yes. Well, you know - B. Sperger: May I ask a couple of questions? L. Raymond: Yes, sure. B. Sperger: You said that this home will be placed on a gravel pad. Aren't there regulations where you have to have tie- downs. . . ? Tony Z. : No . They can be tied down on gravel. And the reason for using either undisturbed earth or using gravel that has been rolled - you probably saw Steve with the roller over there - is because when the unit is removed, the landscape has to be returned to what it was prior to putting that unit there. So everything there is actually considered temporary. There are Code requirements for tie-downs and screw-downs and whatever's necessary to keep the wind from moving the structure . Page 10 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 B. Sperger: Well, I know my daughter had a trailer and she had to have - J. Pachai: Right. The Mobile Home Ordinance does call for, I can read it, "all mobile homes shall be placed on a permanent foundation of concrete blocks, poured cement, or concrete slab. " That's the Mobile Home Ordinance. B. Sperger: Well, isn't this a mobile home? L. Raymond: Yes, but an ECHO housing unit is not to be considered permanent. J. Pachai: I don't want to argue the point as to whether it's permanent or temporary placement; I'm just saying, to answer her question, that is what the Code requires. Tony Z. : In order to obtain a Certificate of Occupancy it will have to meet all Code requirements as far as the Code Enforcement Officer is concerned. L. Raymond: Yes, he has to meet the State Building Code. Tony Z. : Right, right. B. Sperger: Is there sufficient water for two units? Tony Z. : I 've been told by Randolph Well & Pump there is enough water to support both. B. Sperger: How much is that? Tony Z. : Enough water to support both units. B. Sperger: But how much? Tony Z. : We've got a well at 220 feet deep that is . . . B. Sperger: But how many gallons per minute? J. Pachai: Just to save the time, it's not an issue that we can take into consideration. That' s possibly a Health Department issue . I'm not sure. 0 Page 11 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: It also has to do with other things like State Building Code and so on that we are not responsible for. R. Walpole: The gallons per minute is sufficient to satisfay the bank, and it is about 5 gallons per minute. B. Sperger: What if this unit doesn't sell when he's through with it? How long does he have to get rid of it? S. Thane: He has 90 days. Tony Z. : It's 90 days. B. Sperger: Okay. L. Raymond: It's a renewable permit, however. Every two years it has to be reviewed to make sure, I assume, it's being used the way it's supposed to be used and not used in some other way. Tony Z. : That's right. Not being used for commercial value. L. Raymond: That's right, that's right - or trying to convert it into a permanent home or something like that. That's right. Does anyone else have any questions here for Mr. Zarachowitz? L. McElroy: I have a question. The elder housing units are usually one bedroom, and this is a two-bedroom that you're planning to put on that. Ton Z. : Ri y ght. L. McElroy: In that spot. How many people are going to be living in that unit? Tony Z. : Just one, Phyllis Compton. L. McElroy: Just one. Tony Z. : Just one. Occasionally, maybe two of her grandchildren will stop by and she'll have grandchildren - usually, in the summertime, she has a couple of her grandchildren from Pennsylvania that will stay for three days to a week. But there are no other adult residents there. P. Gaines: The reason for having the 14 by 70 is that you couldn't find one that was smaller? Page 12 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 Tony Z. : That's correct. Couldn't find anything that was previously owned that was that size, that price, and - the criteria I was trying to maintain was to keep the unit within being ten years old. J. Pachai: Isn't that about where the line is drawn in respect to the Uniform Fire Code? Aren't there a lot of things in trailers that are over ten years old? There's a certain year. I don't know where it is. Tony Z. : The Code for ECHO housing in the Town is mid- 1970s. You can have something as old - I want to say '76 - it may be even older than that. It goes back around 25 years. J. Pachai: I remember we dealt with this some other time. R. Walpole: Most of them have a HUD number, and the banking regulations or the Town need a HUD number. If it doesn't have a HUD seal . . . L. Raymond: It's true. It goes back a ways. J. Pachai: And the other thing that I vaguely remember hearing at some point or reading someplace that the trailers in the size that would meet the 750 square foot regulation are typically those of the considerably older vintage. R. Walpole : I think another thing - - the Town of Groton regulations for mobile homes - you've got to have a minimum - look it up, John. L. Raymond: You've got to have 840 . R. Walpole: That was the other criteria for the second home. L. Raymond: Well, it's a matter here, too , of a little bit of fudging because if you classify it as an elder cottage unit, then you come under the Code that says 750. If you classify it as a mobile home, then you come under the 840 . So which applies here? It comes back to the question John was just raising over which applies - does the mobile home requirement apply to this, or does the ECHO cottage unit apply to this? There's some gray areas here, obviously, that aren't spelled out exactly. J. Pachai: If there weren't, he probably wouldn't be here. L. Raymond: That's right. That's what we're here for . Page 13 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 J. Pachai: And there's also an accessory apartment is attached - the detached room. L. Raymond: The detached room we dealt with . . . J. Pachai: . . . clearly defined now as a room. One or more detached rooms. Technically, it falls under that category too and there's no square footage requirement in a detached room, which can be more than one room. Now why it says room and then it's defined as it is, I can't tell you . But that is the definition and that is what we go by. L. Raymond: Yes. A detached room is considered part of the main housing unit as long as - just like your proposal - as they are using the same septic, same water, and whatnot, but as a detached room for a living unit. And we've dealt with that in some other cases already. R. Walpole : What about a room that's added on as a separate unit? J. Pachai: It's actually not added on; that's why they say detached. L. Raymond: Detached. Yes. It's a separate structure, separate from but tied into the main house unit in terms of water, sewer, and other things. Usually a small apartment type thing, a small living unit. And our Code - don't ask me how that got in there, but it's in there . J. Pachai: I can understand why it would be there, but the thing that always threw me off was the one or more detached rooms. Apparently you can have more than one room attached to the other, but it's still considered a detached room overall. Definitions are funny that way - as long as they are defined. When they're not defined is when we get the problems. L. Raymond: The main criteria for detached rooms are that they're tied into the main house which is considered exactly as all part of the same house, just as if they were part of the same house, only the room is just set off a little bit. But they are all using the same utilities and so on. And so, in a way, this fits in. These ECHO housing/ elder cottage units fit into that in a different way. It is, in that way, kind of a detached room, so you could call it either way. Whatever. Well, has everyone asked everything of Tony that we want to ask in regards to information here? Does anyone else have really some good things here that you want to - C. Sperger: I have a question about the permit. Now is it going to redo it every two years? L. Raymond: Yes. Tony Z. : Yes, because it's a Special Permit. Page 14 of 32 1 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: It's a Special Permit and it's a renewable one. It's not a permanent permit. C. Sperger: Right. So it's renewed for another two years and another two years - L. Raymond: Only as long as he meets the requirements they set forth in the Special Permit. It's tied to the person who lives in it. It's tied to an individual. That would be your mother-in-law. Tony Z. : Right, L. Raymond: And when your mother-in-law ceases to use that, for whatever reason - whether she's ill or dies or whatever - then that permit is no longer valid as I understand it. C. Sperger: What happens if this gets renewed for Like a third or fourth term; does it then get grandfathered? L. Raymond: No . Noway. Tony Z. : It's a Special Use Permit that has to be reviewed every two years. And it's primarily because you don't want the Town - the Town doesn't want somebody to put something in like this, like we are - we're coming forward asking for a Special Use Permit and if the resident that it was there for specifically moves out, well, quite frankly, I don't want my nieces and nephews and any other family members thinking that they have a place to move into because we have a unit there. We've got 90 days to have it removed to have the land put back the way it was. And that' s it. But as long as she's there - C. Sperger: What if you relocate? Tony Z. : If I relocate, it's the same thing that happens. The unit goes with me . R. Walpole : Actually, it would become an illegal lot. You've got two units on it . . . J. Pachai: As far as the Town' s concerned, the whys and wherefores as far as whether it gets turned into a second apartment or what, if it's just left empty and kept in pristine condition, it's still not there legally 90 days after the person passes or moves. So it's up to the Code Enforcement Officer to cite the property owner and, in fact, I suppose it possibly should have been done at the Planning Board level, but there's the idea of getting on paper the terms of removal and that sort of thing. Page 15 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: Well, I think that's something - depending on how we decide tonight - will go back to the Planning Board and they will continue. They just said they had to stop the works. Tony Z. : They are looking at this entire process that we're going through. J. Pachai: It sounded to me like they had approved it contingent upon the results of the appeal, and that would imply that that' s all there is. L. Raymond: That's all they're going to do . J. Pachai: I think we're going to have to discuss this, but this is moving into the meeting part. I would think that we would have to, if we did approve, approve it pending proper legal documentation, or proper removal agreement. L. Raymond: Well, you're right. We're moving into the - out of the hearing part here. I guess the main thing here is if no one else has anything else they want to contribute or other questions to ask, we will close the hearing and go into our meeting where we will decide how we want to handle this. So this is your last chance everyone if you've got anything else you want to say or ask. C. Sperger: I'd like to know a little bit more about the flag lot you were talking about. Is this approved? Explain that to me . L. Raymond: Well, the flag lot would be where you have enough acreage in behind in the lot. You have at least an acre, in other words, you've got to have for a house . Okay. He has enough land on his lot that extends back for that acre. However, he may not have enough frontage for two houses. But, if you take a flag lot, the pole on the flat - that' s why they call it a flag lot - the pole would have to be at least 20 foot wide which would be the access. It would be the driveway. And that would have to be deeded separately. It's not - the lot would have to be divided and the deed recorded and taken out so you have two lots there . And one lot would be the one in front that's there now, and the other lot would have a house farther back, with this 20-foot driveway or whatever it is going back to it. And that' s called a flag lot. And we have a provision for that in our Code for that type of thing. And as you heard, and as you know very well as a neighbor, that lot is not the greatest siting for trying to put another house farther back with a flag lot because it goes downhill so . Tony Z. : We're not putting anything back down below where the dogs are running. J. Wood : You get out behind my garage next door to you there, and there's water. Page 16 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: We only ask these questions or mention these things because we have to look at all other possibilities that could be considered, whether they are feasible or not, and things like that. Tony Z. : I can add one more thing. Some of the discussions I've had with regular Planning Board members, Town councilors, as well as our Town Supervisor - I can't speak for them, but there seems to be a general discussion in changing the regulations or amending the regulations to allow specifically a 14 by 70 unit as an ECHO unit. But that has no bearing on this tonight. L. Raymond: It has no bearing on this. Tony Z. : But there is discussion in the works on that. J. Pachai: We had a guy the other day that was saying my god, we ought to have 840 square foot ECHO units. L. Raymond: It's all speculative at this point. We can't go by that. We have to go by what's on the books now. Okay. Well, with that then, I think that we might as well close the hearing. Does everyone agree here? And when we close the hearing, as you folks know, we will convene among ourselves. You're welcome to stay and listen in. It's a public meeting. But the Public Hearing part is over as far as input. That's why I kept asking to make sure you folks had said everything you had on your mind before we close. You're welcome to stay and listen like any other meeting, Town Board meeting or anything else. Okay, so the Public Hearing is closed at 8:47 p.m. Are you folks ready to reconvene for a decision? We got us all in a line here. Wish we had it so we were all facing each other. J. Pachai: We can always turn the table . DECISION SESSION S. Thane: Now my understanding of this is all we really have to consider is the size, right? L. Raymond: That' s really all that's asked for. S. Thane: The only thing the applicant is . . . L. Raymond: Yes. He meets all the other requirements of the Code . J. Pachai: Any other concerns would be that of the Planning Board, I believe. Page 17 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: It' s pretty straightforward in that regard. Obviously, the Code allows and provides for these elder cottage units; that' s very clear. That's the intention of the Town Code that these units would be allowed. L. McElroy: And he definitely qualities as an ECHO. L. Raymond: Yes. You mean in terms of the type of individual who will be using it? Yes. P. Gaines: Since there aren't enough of them and there aren't any other - S. Thane: Units, you mean? P. Gaines: Not enough units and other alternatives don't seem to be very available or affordable. L. Raymond: It's mostly availability. That's what we heard in the hearing here - there's a waiting list. I also called the Better Housing people and she told me essentially the same thing that Tony found out. And that was yes, we have five units, and they're all in use. And they just don't know when one will become available when somebody no longer needs it. That's an iffy thing. In terms of, as John usually reminds us, Tony's circumstances with his mother-in-law and so on is a very human one. It's one we all understand. And strictly speaking, in terms of the Code, it's not anything that really we consider technically; but we will otherwise. That's clear. But just to reiterate where we're coming from here, we're only considering, as I said, he wants a unit that is allowed - the idea is allowed under the Code, very clearly, and it's just a matter of the size requirement. It looks like he's meeting all the other requirements. That's what the Planning Board seemed to have found too . J. Pachai: And if we were to say all right, this is not an ECHO unit, this is a set of detached rooms, then there would be no size restriction. And in the word of the Code, it can be looked at that way with no - without looking in any other direction. S. Thane: But the applicant has to decide what it is to be called. J. Pachai: Right. Exactly. And that's what is stated on the application, whatever the section was. L. McElroy: And looking at all the ways this . . . except it's definitely designed to be temporary. J. Pachai: Yes, and it's actually better for the municipality, I believe . Page 18 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: The fact that they set it up under Special Permit, which has to be renewed, tells you that it's considered to be a temporary type of unit. S. Thane: And that once the unit is gone, the site must be restored. L. Raymond: Yes. In terms of, as John said, yes for the detached room on a regular housing unit there's no limit on the size - it occurred to me just now that the fact of the matter was if he was to build on to the house he just put there, another room, another section of that size, and had it permanently attached to the house, that would be just part of the main house. L. McElroy: Right. L. Raymond: It would be permanent then. S. Thane: It might cost more than $ 15, 000 . L. Raymond: I'm sure. Yes, I'm sure. Now, as we heard in testimony here at the hearing, he wants that left flexible because he's not intending to stay there, so he wants to be able to move that elder cottage unit wherever else they go. S. Thane: Now that's something I want to ask. Now does that require a re-application for - because this application is for that site? L. Raymond: Is for that site. I suspect it does, don't you? J. Pachai: Yes, because it has to do with the land as opposed to the structure. L. Raymond: That's true. That's true. Yes. And it comes back to the fact that this is what the Code is all about. It's not about the human drama part of it, it's all about the technical parts of the land and the site . Well, shall we start going through our questions here that we have to deal with? I left you folks some of those little cards. Did you get one, Lisa? I guess you got one. They were handed out at one of the training sessions here a year or so ago, and they have use variances on one side and area variances on the other, the requirements. The things you have to ask. I'm going to take them in a slightly different order; I take them in the order they are in our Code actually. And when we do that, the first one is "Is this going to have any impact on neighborhood character?" And the first item under impact on neighborhood character is whether it's going to affect the property values of other adjacent properties and homes. But not entirely. Whether it is something that is not characteristic of the neighborhood and doesn't fit into what the neighborhood is now is also something we should Page 19 of 32 1 . Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 consider, and anything else, I suppose . The State law is pretty broad on that, defining neighborhood character . It's up to us. You folks have all seen it. You've seen the site . S. Thane: I have not seen the mobile home . L. Raymond: No, that's true. We haven't seen that. We've only seen the pad where he intends to put it on the back there. S. Thane: Well, my understanding is that you probably cannot see it from the road because it would be behind the house. L. Raymond: Well, in part. You'll be able to see it some when you go by because you can see the pad it goes on. So you'll be able to see that from the side. It will not be something in-your-face type thing. Well, I guess my first reaction would be that I don't see it as being out of character for the neighborhood. There seems to be other housing in the neighborhood that will fit, pretty much, into what that is. Is that your impression? J. Pachai: And being that it is a temporary siting of a structure I think even if it leaned in the direction of being undesirable, or whatever, not undesirable but a little different, the thing that it is temporary I think is a reasonable consideration. L. Raymond: So I guess we want to say then for our Finding # 1 : is that there will be no affect on neighborhood character, reinforced by the fact that this is going to be a temporary structure. Do you want to say it that way, John? J. Pachai: That sounds good. L. Raymond: So now the second one is the business about alternatives: "Does the Appellant have reasonable alternatives available that does not require a variance?" The State makes us ask these questions and we puzzle our brains over these things. P. Gaines: It sounds like he's tried. S. Thane: And reasonable is such a subjective word, too . L. Raymond: Yes, I know. S. Thane: I mean it is possible to buy a 12 by 60 structure, but for twice the price. I don't know if it's reasonable to do that. Page 20 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: Well, economics is one of the things we're supposed to consider. L. McElroy: Well, it seems to me that the applicant has self-created the time constraint - L. Raymond: You're jumping to the last one here, it's self-created. L. McElroy: But what I'm saying is we don't know if other alternatives exist - if he had more time to look for them. L. Raymond: That's true. That's true . L. McElroy: I suspect there are other feasible alternatives - L. Raymond: Given, as you say, within the time, there might be feasible alternatives that could turn up. S. Thane: But I think you have to weigh the reasonable alternative against the fact that this is temporary. Sure, he could do something differently. But because this is so temporary, in a couple of years the whole thing will be moved anyway. J. Pachai: Well, we can look at it as being temporary in that it runs no more than the life of the occupant. But in respect to looking at it as being temporary in respect to the applicant's plans for the future, that he will be moving in a couple of years, I don't think we can consider that because that's - L. McElroy: It could be 20 years - J. Pachai: Yes, that' s what happened to me at the last place I lived. L. Raymond: On the other hand, the temporary definition is life is uncertain and, who knows, it might be that something could happen to Tony and his wife - could be wiped out in a car accident or something. Who knows? And that would leave her there on the place. And I'm just not sure what happens in that case . She could move into the house, I suppose. That's true too . Yes. So as we say, life is uncertain. You never know how things are really going to turn out. But she could live a long, long life and be there for a long time and he would renew those permits. On the other hand, supposedly, the requirement for the renewals means that the Town will be watching and making sure it's being used the way it's intended all during that time, even if it is 20 years. If she lives to be 100, or whatever. I talked with George Senter about this thing. John had spoken to me about to what extent Page 21 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 where you give variances or special permits with conditions on, who goes back to check to make sure those conditions are abided by? J. Pachai: Or what mechanism is in place . L. Raymond: Yes. And George tells me that they have a file in there that has all of the past conditions and so on, and that they are passed on to the next Code Enforcement Officer when the new one comes in. And if they do their job, they're supposed to check up on these. P. Gaines: So they really do check up? L. Raymond: Yes. Yes. They get them check; they have a special file. On top of that, he said it's not just the Town. He says that the Town gets audited by the State every so often and they come in and they check to make sure that this is being done. So there's a double check there . And I didn't realize that until George explained this to me. So somebody, at least on the books, is supposedly watching over these things and will see to it that that unit will never be used in any other way except the way it's supposed to be. L. McElroy: Well, in any case, the applicant does seem to have tried to find other alternatives. L. Raymond: Yes, that's clear on the record I think that give, again, as you said, the time constraints - within the time constraints that he has tried. So how do we want to deal with this as our finding here? It's Finding #2 . Anybody going to suggest the wording here? Shall we say, up front, time constraints in our fmding? Or is that cricket to do that, I don't know. They use to allow hardship type things, but now they don't like to do that. They like to talk about economics in this regard. J. Pachai: Well, one thing is for certain. That the availability of the smaller units is - L. Raymond: Oh, yes. Good point. S. Thane: The County units. L. Raymond: Yes. Yes. To which the Code apparently seems to actually alluding to, although it doesn't say it specifically. P. Gaines: There are very few other units that would be that small. J. Pachai: Yes. It would be a custom or special-order trailer or a special-order modular. We're taking the applicant's word on that. He' s on record as saying that. Page 22 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: Shall we say then, Finding # 2: Applicant has made a good faith effort to locate a leased unit from the County program - L. McElroy: As well as other kinds of units that weren't the ECHO - L. Raymond: Yes. Let me finish writing this thing down. Applicant has made a good faith effort to locate a leased unit from the County program which met the size requirement. According to the applicant, he did explore other types of houses that would also meet the size requirement, and he was unable to locate any within a feasible price range . How's that? L. McElroy: Good. L. Raymond: Is that all we want to say for #2? Joan, do you want to read that back to us? J. Fitch: Applicant has made a good faith effort to locate a leased unit from the County program which met the size requirement, and according to the applicant, he did explore other types of houses that would also meet the size requirement, and he was unable to locate any within a feasible price range. L. Raymond: Do we want to add the word temporary in here? Other types of temporary housing units? J. Pachai: I think that economics should be stated in there . L. Raymond: All right. Let's restate that last part. According to the applicant, he did explore other types of temporary housing units that met the size requirement, and he was unable to do so. J. Pachai: I really think the economic consideration is a bona fide - S. Thane: But none were found to meet the time and economic - L. Raymond: But was unable to do so within his time constraints and economic needs. J. Pachai: The applicant made the point, at least twice, the point that it was economically not desirable - whether it was affordable by his bank account or the resident's financial situation, I don't know. But the point is, the applicant stated that to buy an ECHO unit such as those rented by the County, was $45,000. And it was too much. He actually didn't say too much. It also was stated that they could do a special order for $25,000 I believe it was, or a 12 by 60, and so that was the point Page 23 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 raised. In other words, those two options exist. Those are two other ways to meet the Code. The only reason, and one of the main objections to those by the applicant was that - the cost issue. Now there may have also been a time issue - S. Thane: And I guess that's what I heard. From those three options in the end: the ECHO unit, there are none available to rent from the County - J. Pachai: You could buy one . P. Gaines: Are they available to buy? J. Pachai: From the modular builder. S. Thane: And are they available now? J. Pachai: Yes, at $45, 000 , S. Thane: And the 12 by 60 was a special order. I heard that was not available now. J. Pachai: I was also hearing the dollars as being a big issue. L. McElroy: $42 ,000, or he could purchase a mobile home for $26 , 000 to $30,000 . L. Raymond: So this raises the whole question again. Did we recognize the economic situation on that, which we have a right to do? J. Pachai: And we have before. S. Thane: Economic hardship. L. Raymond: Yes. J. Pachai: And even if it's not a true hardship, I think if you can have (a) for $ 15,000, it's a financial impracticality. Whether it's affordable or not, it's impractical to go out and spend 45 or 46 thousand for a modular unit that's 750 square feet when you can get something that' s every bit as good. It's a little bit bigger - for a third the money. So it's a financial - L. Raymond: So then shall we say but was unable to do so within time constraints and financial practicality. All right. That' s Finding #2 . Okay, the next one we got to get to is they want Page 24 of 32 1 • 1 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 you to know, if we were to give the variance, "How much does this deviate from what the Code requires ?" Is it a substantial deviation. Well, all we're dealing with, as Steve has pointed out, again, is just the area dimension. So 750 square feet is the limit in the Code and he's going to go to 924, so that's - J. Pachai: 25 %, L. Raymond: About a 25% increase. So do we want to consider that a substantial deviation, or is it a relatively minor deviation? J. Pachai: I would like to look at the word substantial. L. Raymond: I know, John. J. Pachai: This has been my pet peeve for - L. Raymond: The State leaves it up to us to decide what that is. J. Pachai: I've talked to the attorneys of the Department of state and everything else and I think I'm right in saying you don't always have to consider the percents and the numbers. You can also consider it from a more practical, another standpoint, rather, like a three-car garage is 870 some odd square feet. Even though most people don't have threes, there are an awful lot of three-car garages. Is that a huge piece of structure on a property? L. McElroy: Is anyone here concerned that this is a substantial difference? i S. Thane: I think the only way I would consider - I mean were talking about an area. Were talking about a 25% increase in area. The fact is, not all that area goes straight up to make this thing look like a tower. It doesn't go in some sort of elongated way to make this look like it's 180 feet long. This is a proportional increase and, to me, that's not substantial because it is proportional. L. Raymond: Okay, and then to take John's view here, I think what you're looking at is, is it a substantial deviation from what you would find in the neighborhood, shall we say? In terms of housing, housing size, or whatever. J. Pachai: I can't remember all that's out there, but I know there's a barn. There's a - on the corner of Smith and Spring Street there's a huge garage that use to have excavating equipment in, and that' s exactly what I'm thinking. Page 25 of 32 r Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: This is not a substantial deviation from what's in the neighborhood. J. Pachai: But I do have to take a step backwards here. I said 25% and, in actuality from 750 it's almost a one-third jump. A third of 750 is - L. Raymond: Yes, that's true . J. Pachai: There again, you can look at that either way from what it is going backwards to what it should be or from what it should be going up to what it is, it's 33 and one-third percent. L. Raymond: Well, shall we say that, in this finding, Finding # 3 - Although the increase in size is about one-third over what' s required in the Code, it is not a substantial deviation from the general character of other buildings in the neighborhood, something like that. How would that work? S. Thane: Sure. It's not a substantial deviation to the size that's allowed, not required. It is not required to be 750 square feet; it's allowed to be 750 square feet. J. Pachai: Yes, you're right. L. Raymond: Although it's one-third increase over maximum allowed in the Code , it is not a substantial deviation from the other existing structures in the neighborhood . J. Pachai: Existing secondary structures. L. Raymond: Well, we'll just make it structures. J. Pachai: Accessory to secondary structures. As long as they're not thinking of primary structures. L. Raymond: We're down to Environmental Impacts, and the first thing I 'll say is that under, and for the new members here, this is the SEQRA, State Environmental Quality Review Act. And under this Act, under Type II as they call in here Part 617 . 5 of the SEQRA Law exempts single, two-family, and three-family housing from the Act. You don't have to do an Environmental Impact Statement. It's exempt. It's what they call a Type II, which includes also accessory residential structures. So we don't have to do an environmental statement. I was mentioning to Steve before we convened, you probably looked at the Planning Board Minutes and they want through a Negative Declaration; they went through the whole list of all the stuff of environmental impacts. There's no need for them to do that. It's exempt. They just used up time for nothing. Now, once you've done that, we also have the option, however, of considering on our own whether there's any environmental impacts that we want to Page 26 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 consider. It's exempt from the State but not from the Town Code necessarily. We can consider whatever we want. Well, what would we look at? It would be a change in the surface of the ground there, obviously, from what was there on the lot. It's been built up. Obviously, it' s what I would call some minor changes in drainage because of that. And, other than that - we can prove visual, I suppose, in it. It's no longer an open lot. When you drive by there from what the lot was, suddenly when you drive by there's a house there. Well, this isn't an environmental effect, but is it one that's even worth - I don't think so myself. I would say that - J. Pachai: Even having the two structures on the one lot, I don't think even if you draw water it would have any - L. Raymond: And it's not going to affect that wetland further back down on the lot. And the septic's been approved, designed and approved. So there won't be pollution. There's enough room there anyway to take care of it before it gets there. Stormwater runoff - no, not much. Maybe a little. S. Thane: I guess we could just say that - L. Raymond: No environmental impacts (Finding #4) . S. Thane: Yes. That SEQRA is not required and - L. Raymond: We see no other impacts of note, negative impact. There's one other thing I have to include here now. And he's off - okay, guys, we have to do this now, too. There's one for Joan over there . All right. This is the Agricultural Data Statement. Now, underneath I've included - J. Fitch: Have you made your last finding final? L. Raymond: We're still on it. There's different parts of it for environmental impact. This would be part of the farming. First part of it was, it's exempt under Type II. The second part is, we didn't see any other impacts of note. And now we're considering the third part, which is any impact on agriculture. Well, if you look on your tax map there you will see that Franklin Mott is listed in there as having field crops within 500 feet. He's across the road, he's next to it, owns property, and so there's a farm operation there. So that requires that an Agricultural Data Statement be made out. Now, once you've done that, all it says in here, and the reason I include the other two on here, we only have to do it if they are going to have a Special Use Permit. This is not a use variance . You notice that it's only an area variance and if it wasn't under a Special Use Permit then we wouldn't even have to do this. But since it's a Special Use Permit, we do have to do this. J. Pachai: I have a question. Page 27 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: Yes. J. Pachai: Lyle, it seems to me that we are not giving a Special Use Permit, we are - L. Raymond: No, we're not. We're giving a variance. And that was a question I had too because I didn't see any evidence in the Planning Board Minutes that they did anything like that. Did they, Joan? J. Fitch: The Ag Data Statement is appended to the application. They had it. L. Raymond: They had it. But that was only the CEO did that, not the Planning Board. J. Fitch: It's in the packet that the Planning Board received. L. Raymond: The Data Statement? J. Fitch: Yes. L. Raymond: It was a question I did have . John is correct. I wasn't sure whether we'd do it or not, but when it says a use variance, when in the Special Use Permit, and we're giving a variance , I decided well, maybe, we'd be just as well off. As far as I can see is all this amounts to anyway - you look on the last page here - and it says the local reviewing board, and that's us I guess at this point. The local reviewing board shall ascertain present and future farming conditions to ensure that the land use does not conflict with current and future farming activities. Well, that's the key sentence right there. That' s what this whole thing's all about. And it also mentions in there that whoever the farm owner is has to be notified that this action is pending. Well, he was because he's one of the adjoining owners and they sent it to all the adjoining owners, all the notices, and so we know he was notified that this action was pending and has not submitted any written statement and did not come to the hearing tonight to indicate he had any concern about it. So I think maybe that takes care of it as far as I can see. It's just mostly a formality here . So we can say no, we don't see there's any impact on agriculture. All right. That should take care of the findings for the fourth one there. So that gets us down to the last one which we always have to deal with here. " Was this thing self-created?" And John here likes to bite his teeth into this one . J. Pachai: Well, it is. There's no question about it. Page 28 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 L. Raymond: There's no question about it. It's self-created. That's right. It was done with knowledge beforehand that that' s what was going to be required, and so forth. That's what the whole question is about. J. Pachai: And even if a person doesn't have the knowledge that the Code requires such and such an area size, the square footage of the place or whatever requirement there is that might be on the property, or to do what the person wants to do, the person is still obligated to have researched that. If they haven't, then it's still considered self-created. And I'm just throwing that out for - I learned my lesson the hard way. L. Raymond: And we have learned at training sessions that a pleading of ignorance that they hadn't read the law and didn't understand the law and didn't know that they were doing something that was going to require an application for a variance is not an excuse. It's not accepted. It's assumed that if you live in that zone that you should be knowledgeable enough to at least find out what the requirements are in the zone that you live in. J. Pachai: If I can take that one step further. L. Raymond: Right. J. Pachai: Even if the Code Enforcement Officer tells you it's okay to do this, or it's not okay to do this, or you can do this after you buy the property, there won't be any problem. It still doesn't exempt you - L. Raymond: from your responsibility. Yes. J. Pachai: Exactly. L. Raymond: And there's been court cases we've found when we go into those training sessions again where Code Enforcement Officers and towns are taken to task over that very thing. And that the Code Enforcement Officer's word is not law. You are responsible for knowing what's in that Code. It applies to your property. So, if you went back to this, yes, you set yourself up in such a way that you know you're going to have to ask for a variance beforehand, knowing you're not meeting the requirements, so it's self-created. So I think we have to say (Finding # 5 ) yes, this is a self- created situation. However , and again this is for the benefit of the new members here, or one new member, the State very specifically says that question is not a requirement that we have to deny the variance just because it's self-created. It's only there for us to consider. And we can do it as we wish. So we will say, yes, it's self-created in this situation. And that finishes our five questions here. Is there anything else we want to add to our findings? Has everybody thoroughly digested this thing? We've Page 29 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 lost all our audience here, I see, except for one critical person. Well, I would make a motion that w e grant him the variance based on our findings. S. Thane: I second it. L. Raymond: Okay. We got to call the roll call as to whether you approve or not. J. Pachai: May I ask a question? L. Raymond: Oh, yes, I 'm sorry. J. Pachai: It's bad timing to ask the question, but were we going to plug in a condition regarding removal? L. Raymond: Do we need to? Since it's already going to come under the Code Enforcement Officer's approval anyway. J. Pachai: What I was trying to remember was whether the Code set forth the conditions for removal, or whether I read that in another municipality's code where they stated if it's not removed within such and such a time, the county can, the town can remove it and - S. Thane: Where did I just see that? J. Pachai: I just couldn't remember if it's in our Code . S. Thane: Here it is under second part, 320. 7 , where it talks about expiration of Special Permit. L. Raymond: We're covered. I don't think we need this. We're just slopping more . stuff over the top of the ice cream cone if we do that. S. Thane: We can always say something like, kind of a blanket statement, that it's understood this Special Permit will adhere to all the Land Use & Development Codes in the Town of Groton, or something like that if it would make you more comfortable. L. Raymond: Well, what about the other folks here? J. Pachai: I think leaving it - S. Thane: It is here. Page 30 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 J. Pachai: The application is asking for a variance to that condition. You know, you might be right. To say that all other components of the Code still apply. The ECHO housing codes. J. Fitch: You have a motion and you have a second. Now, if you want to amend the motion - L. Raymond: It' s okay with me to amend the motion. J. Fitch: Is it okay with the person who seconded it? S. Thane: Yes. L. Raymond: So we're going to amend it to say the variance is granted based on the above findings, and understanding that the applicant will adhere to all the requirements of a Special Permit for ECHO housing. That sounds good to me. S. Thane: I 'll second the amended motion. L. Raymond: Okay, so it's amended and seconded. So now we are going to vote on it and will you call the roll call, Joan? J. Fitch: Yes. Pat Gaines? P. Gaines: Aye . J. Fitch: Lisa McElroy? L. McElroy: Aye . J. Fitch: Steve Thane? S. Thane: Aye . J. Fitch: Lyle Raymond? L. Raymond: Aye . J. Fitch: John Pachai? Page 31 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing & Meeting 12 November 2001 J. Pachai: Aye . L. Raymond: Okay. This becomes Action # 1 of 2001 . Adjournment L. Raymond: Do we have a motion to close the meeting? P. Gaines: So moved. L. McElroy: Second? L. Raymond: Okay, Lisa seconds. All in favor, say aye. (All members present indicated aye . ) Meeting is done . You have your variance . The time was 9 *40 p . m. F0NOV FCFi�/Ep 3 0 2001 RECEIVED . Fitch wN Urcu, v,v Recording Secretary TOWN CLERK 11 / 28/01 Page 32 of 32 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals (ZBA) Findings and Determination Zarachowicz Variance Application The applicant, Anthony Zarachowicz, 292 Williams St. , Groton, NY , applied for a variance to site an Elder Cottage Housing Opportunity (ECHO) unit that is larger than is allowed under Section 320.3(a) of the Town of Groton Land Use and Development Code on a new home lot #t 923 Spring St. Extension. A public hearing was held on this matter by the ZBA on November 12th, 2001, The applicant provided testimony regarding the need for and purpose of the requested variance. Other neighborhood residents requested clarifying information and provided additional testimony. The ZBA convened in a regular meeting on November 12th, 2001, and determined its findings and decision regarding the requested variance. Finding #1 : The proposed ECHO unit will have no effect on the character of the neighborhood, reinforced by the fact that it will be temporary. Finding #2: The applicant made a good faith effort to locate a leased ECHO unit from the Tompkins County Office of the Aging program which met the size requirement of the Town Code but none were currently available; according to the applicant, he explored other types of temporary housing units that met the size requirement in the Town Code and was unable to do so within his time constraints and financial practicality. Finding #3 : Although the mobile housing unit the applicant proposes to use is nearly one third larger (980 sq. ft.) that the maximum size ECHO unit allowed under the Code (750 sq. ft.), it is not a substantial deviation from existing structures in the neighborhood. Finding #4: (a) The proposed ECHO unit is exempted from SEQR requirements under Part 617.5 of NYS SEQR regulations (Type II). (b) The Agricultural Data Statement reveals no impact on adjacent farmland. (c) The ZBA finds no other significant environmental impacts from siting the proposed ECHO unit. Finding #5: The need for a requested variance was self-created by the applicant. A motion was made and amended by L. Raymond and seconded by S . Thane to grant a variance to the applicant as requested based on the aforementioned findings, with the understanding that it will adhere to all requirements of a Special Permit for an ECHO unit under Section 320.6 of the Groton Code. Roll Call Vote: Lyle Raymond, Chairperson Aye John Pachai Aye Pat Gaines Aye Lisa McElroy Aye Steve Thane Aye RECFIVFp NOV 1 3 2001 TOWN (x br(ui uiv TOWN CLERK