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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1999-11-23 Front yard setback TOWN OF GROTON ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Public Hearing - Tuesday, 23 November 1999 - 7: 30 p .m . � Board Members (*absent) Others Present Lyle Raymond , Chairman Joan Fitch, Recording Secretary John Pachai Robert Eckert & Lynette Bush , Applicants Mary Decker Glenn Morey, Supervisor-Elect Steve Thane Tyke Randall, Councilman -Elect The Public Hearing was opened at 7 : 30 p.m. by Chairman Lyle Raymond. L. Raymond: We're opening the session at 7 : 30 PM . The attendance sheet has gone to you two guys and whatnot here , and the two over here, the Eckerts. We'll need to have you sign, too, if you got it. Okay. Please take notice that the Zoning Board of Appeals of the Town of Groton, County of Tompkins, State of New York will hold a public hearing on November 23rd, 1999 at 7:30 PM at the Town Hall, 101 Conger Boulevard Groton, NY, for the purpose of considering an appeal for a variance by Robert Eckert, 125 Old Peruville Road, Groton, New York to site a detached garage closer to the front lot line than is allowed in a Low Intensity District The appeal specifically relates to Section 343. 2(d) of the Groton Land. Use and Development Code which sets a minimum yard depth of 30 feet between a building and the front line of a lot. And again, for the record , the fees have now been paid. And I guess everyone sort of knows whoever, but we'll go around again. I'm Lyle Raymond, the Chairman of the Board of Zoning Appeals. I live on Old Stage Road . J. Pachai: John Pachai . Cedar Lane L. Raymond: John is Vice Chair, by the way. M. Decker: Mary Decker. Tallmadge Road. S. Thane: Steve Thane . Old Stage Road , L. Raymond: Right. And were down one member for the benefit of the new Town Board members here , which we hope to fill pretty soon. We've already been in contact with Glenn over this . I have the Page 1 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 Chair's remarks here, the Chair's statement. There's a copy for all. The primary purpose of this Hearing is to hear an appeal to site a detached garage closer to the front lot line than is allowed in a Low Intensity District This district includes the hamlet of Pen wille where the site of the proposed garage is located On September 14th, the applicant, Robert Eckert, filed an appeal for a variance from the building dimension requirements of the Code with the Zoning Board of Appeals for a proposed new garage. This involved a substantial increase over the maximum height allowed in the Code. On September 27th, the Zoning Board of Appeals granted the requested variance from height limitations for a proposed garage in the applicant's zoning district. The previous history of the applicant's actions regarding a proposed garage at this site is given in the record from the September 27th meeting. On November 1st, the applicant filed an application for a second variance. The applicant now proposes to change the distance the proposed garage is to be sited from the front lot line, facing the public highway. This involves a change in site specifications for the proposed garage as set forth and approved by this Board in previous variance request, which was granted. The new change is such that the proposed garage no longer meets Code requirements. Me principal task for the members of the Zoning Board of Appeals at this Hearing is to hear testimony from the appellant and any other interested parties on this appeal. We will ask questions to ensure that the ZBA members understand the nature of what is being proposed and the reasons why a variance is being requested The Zoning Board of Appeals must consider two basic things in deciding upon an appeal for a variance from area or dimension regulations. These are (1 ) the benefit to the applicant, and (2) any harmful effects on the health, safety, and general welfare of the neighborhood (and the Town generally) if the variance is granted. Essentially, the ZBA is charged with weighing or balancing these two interests. At the close of the Hearing, the ZBA will either (1) immediately re-convene to make a decision in this case or (2), if deemed necessary, defer its decision until a later date, as provided for in the law. The decision meeting is open to the public, but no further testimony will be heard after the Hearing is closed. . That's the Chairman's statement, and you have a copy, Joan. Next is communications received, and we have received, I see here, a letter from the Tompkins County Department of Planning. The Planning Department has to be notified whenever something is on the County road, the State road, near public lands, or whatever, within 500 feet. The letter's dated November 16, 1999 to Lyle Raymond, Chairman Page 2 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 of the Groton Zoning Board of Appeals. Pursuant to 239-1 and -m of the New York State General Municipal Law, Action: Yard Depth for Eckert, Old Peruville Road, Tax Parcel Number 36- 1 -59. Dear Mr, Raymonct This letter acknowledges your referral of the proposal identfed above for review and comment by the Tompkins County Planning Department pursuant to 239-1 and -m of the New York State General Municipal Law. The proposal, as submitted, will have no significant deleterious impact on intercommunity, County, or State interests. And that's the main thing they're concerned with . Therefore, no recommendation is indicated by the Tompkins County Planning Department, and you are free to act without prejudice. Please inform us of your decision so that we can make it a part of the record. Sincerely, James W. Hanson, Jr. , Commissioner of Planning. Okay, J. Pachai: It was quite close to the State highway there (couldn't hear rest of sentence . ) L. Raymond: Okay. With that, we will turn to the appellant. And I noticed that since we are already acquainted with the appellants, Mr. Eckert and Lynette . Perhaps we will let them speak now and give their own, in their own words if you wish, what it is you're up to here . I know we've received your appeal and you mention that you want to locate the garage closer, but perhaps you have some further information you may want to give us. R. Eckert: Well, it's because of the back lot -- that wall that fell down . They can't build it that high ; they have to cut way back into the bank. They're only going to go six-foot high with the wall. L. Bush: He's going to lose more property if he sticks with the engineer's plans and drawings. if we move it forward, he doesn't have to lose any more . L. Raymond: So the original plans that you gave us when we gave you the previous variance have now been changed? The specifications? R. Eckert: Not with the building. Just with the wall. L. Raymond: Just for the wall? R. Eckert: Yes . I had to hire an engineer because the wall fell down . Page 3 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 L. Bush: It was a retainer wall that was behind the garage. S. Thane: So instead of 10 feet it can only be 6 feet? 1s that what you're saying? L. Bush: Well, it's only going to be about 6 feet high and the land will be tapered. R. Eckert: Yes, the land will taper right down . L. Bush: Not just straight down like they had it. J. Pachai: Is this the old plan or the new plan? The one I received in the packet. It looks -- are there any changes in the plan you submitted for the first appeal and this appeal? L. Bush: Not for the building . J. Pachai: No. I mean , are the drawings the same? L. Bush: We want to move the building forward to put up a retainer wall. The building drawings are the same. J. Pachal: So they don't really reflect the new location, and the height of the wall has changed . L. Raymond: I don't know as I quite understand. If the specifications haven' t changed -- when I visited the site and I talked with Mr. Eckert at the time, and he explained how the new wall, since the old one fell down, that the new wall is not going to be so high and you're going to take away more of the hill in back so they can't slant the top part back. You mentioned you were going to take out some more trees out there . L. Bush: What the engineer wants to do is make tie-backs with geofabric so the wall won't fall down now. L. Raymond: Right. I understand that part. L. Bush: And we have to go back behind the wall like five or six feet or something, I can't remember. So they'd have to dig back like ten more feet of property. L. Raymond: Ten more feet of property because the garage which would be located within this retaining wall -- as you explained, the retaining wall's not part of the garage. It's just to hold back the soil, right? Page 4 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 L. Bush: Yes. L. Raymond: The building itself you're moving out toward the road further so to give more room? L. Bush: So we don't have to dig any more land away -- they can do their tie-back idea if we move the retainer wall forward . S. Thane : So the retainer wall is not going to be in the same place . M. Decker: Okay. That's what I couldn't figure out. L. Raymond: Oh , you're moving the retainer wall, the one that's holding back the soil, toward the road further. That means you got to move the whole dang building towards the road . At least in the dimensions you have given, you're trying to still maintain the same dimensions for the building, right? L. Bush: Yes. R. Eckert: Oh , yes. L. Bush: So we don't have to dig away as much property, we want to move that thing forward . S . Thane: So they have to move that wall 10 feet toward the road, which pushes the building 10 feet toward the road? Is that the idea? R. Eckert: Yes, because they want space between the building and the wall so you can clean that out in there . S. Thane: That six-foot walkway? R. Eckert: Yes. J. Pachai: Rather than excavating additional earth -- M. Decker: Behind the wall . J. Pachai: Then what you're going to do is you're going to set the wall closer, further towards the road. And when they lay in the deadmen, or whatever, and they put dirt on L. Bush: Gravel, Page 5 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 L. Raymond: Is there some compelling reason why the wall can't be excavated farther, going back? L. Bush: He hasn't got much land left back there . R. Eckert: I've only got an acre of land . L. Raymond: So you're running up against the property line , is that what you're saying? If you dig back much farther, you're going to exceed your property line onto somebody else's property? R. Eckert: No, it will be L. Bush: Close to the line . R. Eckert: It will make it kind of hard to take care of back there, having everything back so far. Because the farther back you get into that bank, the steeper it is. L. Raymond: I understand . I understand. R. Eckert: And there's a lot of trees out there that I ought to take down . They're big ones, too. L. Raymond: Those trees, if I understood when I talked with you -- you're going to take those down anyway because of the new configuration of the retaining wall . R. Eckert: Right, because I'm worried about the root system in there . I've got to take those out . But I don't want to take them all out. L. Raymond: And the dimensions for the building cannot be adjusted? R. Eckert: Here at this point? No, because the people that are constructing the building have already ordered everything and about everything's in because this is taking so long. L. Raymond: Well, that's really not our problem. That's something you proceeded on. But I just asked the question as to whether the amount of space that you need could be taken care of by readjusting the dimensions of the building in some form. R. Eckert: No. L. Raymond: You feel you can't do it at this point in the game that you're in? Page 6 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 R. Eckert: That's pretty much it. L. Raymond: Yes, J. Pachai: So it looks like the base of the wall will be -- if you were to stick within Code -- the base of the wall would be 88 feet from the lot line , approximately? Fifty-five feet from the center of the road, which would be 55, 52, and 6. So we're looking at 113 feet taking it from the centerline . It would be 113 feet to the base of that wall. What kind of depth in the property from the wall to the point where the excavation will end, going into the hill? What kind of depth is that? In other words, from -- this is the road. This is the base of the wall. This is the hill. At what point -- what is the distance between the wall and the point where the excavation will end in respect to - - L. Bush: I don't know. I'm not sure . I -- this is what I asked to begin with , but they didn't do it. I wanted them to contour it like it is behind the house , and that will also help with water runoff. Well , the people we hired were incompetent and they didn't do it -- they did it just straight up and down, so I want to attempt to do that again , to contour it like behind the house , because that will keep the water from going into the basement like we're getting now since they've done this. J. Pachai: One of the reasons I asked L. Bush. So it's not going to be up straight. I'm hoping that we, like stepped level. J. Pachai: So you really don't know how far back the excavation will actually have to go? R. Eckert: No. J. Pachais But that's the point of your appeal is it's going to go back too far. It would be good to know what those dimensions are . R. Eckert: Well, I know that I have to take those big trees down out back. . . but there's trees out there that big around out back. L. Raymond: You showed them to me when I was there . It's way up above . Real large maple trees. R. Eckert: And they have to come out. L. Raymond: For the Hearing record, when I was there the other night and I met with them, I brought a tape measure. John, we should have had your surveying wheel there too I think. But anyway, I brought a tape measure and let Lynette help me and we did some measuring from the center Page 7 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 of the road back. And what we found was is that the road is not square to the lot. That road, if you look at it very closely -- you don't notice it if you're just driving through there -- but if you sit down and look at it real closely from the corners as it goes west, that road slants back so that it appears that his house is square to the road. But in actuality, as we were looking at it the other night, it became clear as you stand beside the house and look along the front towards the road, that it is not quite square with the road. You indicated to me, I believe , when we were there that your intention was to have the garage line up with the front of the house so that you didn't have two buildings with different alignments. What that came out as, as I talked with them, is that they, on the site to the east nearest the house , they are only running over 8. 5 feet. But as we keep that configuration, aligned with the house as you go towards the west, then the garage gradually encroaches more and more on the road because the road is coming in the other way. And so the 10 feet -- if I'm correct in our discussions the 10 feet was the maximum distance that the garage would encroach onto the distance it's supposed to be from the road . And that would be at the farther corner. But as you come back towards the house going east, then it's about 2 . 5 foot less . S . Thane: How close will that west corner of the building be to the centerline , do you know? L. Raymond: The west corner? S. Thane: Yes. L. Raymond: Well, it will be 10 feet short of the -- in other words, of the centerline is 55 feet total with 30 foot for the Town and 25 foot for the road , and so he's going to be 45 foot. S. Thane: So that west corner -- the worst corner will be 45 feet from the centerline . . Okay. J. Pachai: That's the maximum . L. Raymond: Yes, that's right. S. Thane: Okay, L. Raymond: That's right. J. Pachai: One of my concerns - - maybe you can answer this. I haven't timed it properly, but this time of year the sun gets a little lower. I was wondering if there's a house directly across from where the structure is going, across the road, right? And it's, I mean when the sun hit the house it would be right in line with the garage if you were looking south . That house is fairly close, one of the closer houses to the road. Have you ever noticed what kind of sunlight they get, mid-day? In other words, Page 8 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 the point of the question is, if the structure , being as high as it is, were moved closer to the centerline of the road, would it wind up eliminating sunlight on your neighbor? R. Eckert:, No . The peak is going to run with the road, and the sun rises -- well, if you're standing out in front of my house, the sun rises to your right and ends up over on the left. J. Pachai: Right. Now I was thinking of, I wondered about mid-day. L. Bush: The sun would go higher than the trees, and the trees block it anyways. J. Pachai: If you've got the trees here, and the proposed roof here, and the house here, I just wondered at what point might that create a shadow. R. Eckert: Actually they should probably get more sunlight because of those big trees were are taking down out back. L. Raymond: Way upon the hill. R. Eckert: Way upon the hill . I'm not really sure about the roof system, but these things could crush a garage in a minute . There's one over on the -- well, I guess it would be -- you're looking at my house and the garage, there's a tree over here that I'm going to be taking down too. So that will even let a lot more sunlight in there . And that tree's just as big if not bigger than the trees I'm taking down out back. L. Raymond: You said that, when I was there visiting you , that you'd had a conversation with Mr. Stearns of the Tompkins County Department of Public Works? R. Eckert: Yes. He called twice today. L. Raymond: And could you give some indication of what transpired in those conversations? R. Eckert: He said that he didn't see any problem with moving it 10 more feet closer to the road because he just wanted to make sure his right-of-way of 25 feet was still open. And he left a message for you, I think. L. Raymond: Oh . Well, I've been out so , unfortunately, I didn't get it. He must have left it like this afternoon. R. Eckert: I think he called me right around noon. Page 9 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 L. Raymond: Yes. And as you know, I also talked to Mr. Stearns. And we talked about two levels of concern . One was immediate concern with the County road in terms of immediate maintenance , and current activities which , I believe, is what he's referring to when he gave you his answer. But I also informed him that we , on the Board, have to , with the Town's concern in mind, have to look down the road . Considerably down the road. And what we discussed was sometime , who knows -- five years, ten years in the future -- they may want to widen and improve that road down through Peruville. And it wouldn't take anything, only a developer or somebody coming in with some new development to want to do that. And the question was, where are they going to go? And I fired this question at Mr. Stearns and he pointed out the obvious and that is that the houses on the north side , across from you , are all very close to the road. All way closer then would ever be allowed with any new houses today under the Code . They are all old houses and were built extremely close, probably back when they had horse and buggies or something and it was okay to have the house that close to the road. And he mentioned to me that yes, if we're looking down the road into the future in terms of the Town, that the only place they have to go is to dig back into that bank on the south side which is towards your house . J. Pachai: In that area, you can see that. There are two structures near the road on the south side , and on the north side that's where -- L. Raymond: Yes, yes. So it would be a considerable job . Usually, see what they do is widen the ditches. They widen the ditches and they widen the pavement and so on . And that's the only place he said they would have to go, answering my question, for the future . It's a speculative question because whatever, but nevertheless it's a real one . And I'm going to put that into the Public Hearing record here as to what my conversation was and what yours was. And I think Mr. Stearns was telling both of us, in my opinion, the correct thing. He was responding, I believe , to you and he did to me that he saw no immediate concern. He told me the same thing he did to you about snowplowing and so on. But just to reiterate, I said well, if you look down the road and your going to improve that road someday, where are you going to go. And then he became very concerned and said yes, we've got to find some way to do this. As I said, I want to have that in the Hearing record . J. Pachai: I tried to reach Rick Case, the Highway Superintendent here, to see what the Town standards are currently set at because that's been changed in the Code so that it's really -- rather than setting a dimension, they're referring the person who has a need to know, typically a developer, to the Town Highway Superintendent and Town Engineer to get the current needs for the road. I was curious, did Mr. Stearns mention what they're looking for now as far as the County goes in respect to the minimum highway right-of-way? L. Raymond: Yes, I asked Mr. Stearns how much distance they usually would consider, and he did not want to specify exactly because he said it depends on the site. And it varies whatever the road Page 10 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 situation is. So he didn't want to give a figure because it may not apply universally. Instead, what he did was mention, to say again, he mentioned to me rather, that generally speaking, he says yes, I'm familiar with the Peruville area and if we were to improve that road, one of the first things we would do would be to improve those ditches (cough, cough , excuse me, and he said you know, the only place we're going to go is on the south side where the bank is already high . That ditch is very deep in there already. And that was the context of the conversation and his answer. J. Pachai: The Code used to call for two different dimensions, strangely. At one point the Code had indicated a 50-foot width . And at another point in the Code -- I can't remember now whether it was a 70- or 75-foot width . Maybe that's why the Planning Board pulled it out because I wound up using that ambiguity when I was . . . the case for myself. L. Raymond: Yes, J. Pachai: But it would seem that 60 feet would be a reasonable average of what roads are and what the ideal road might be in a Rural Residential area. So maybe 60 feet. I'm just -- L. Raymond: So you want this put in the Hearing record? J. Pachai: Yes, and I'm just throwing that out as a thought that we may want to -- L. Raymond: Yes, we may want to look again into the discussion further in our Decision Meeting. But with that information in the Hearing record, it's something for us to chew on here . J. Pachai: Exactly, L. Raymond: Yes, okay. R. Eckert: Mr. Stearns also said that he didn't see a problem with it in the future when I talked to him this afternoon . L. Raymond: He told you that. R. Eckert: Yes, L. Raymond: And that was not the context of -- I have a feeling Mr. Stearns may be giving answers to maybe to both of us honestly, but maybe they differed in terms of who it was he was talking to . R. Eckert: Yes, he said he had to talk to -- I don't know who it was down there, but he said he was very familiar with the site because he just put the ditches in . Page 11 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 L. Raymond: Yes, I noticed that. R. Eckert: And he said that he would -- he explained the situation to I guess his supervisor and they both said, which you will know on your answering machine I guess, that he didn't see any problem with it in the near future . L. Raymond: In the near future? R. Eckert: Or the projected future, he said, or something like that. L. Raymond: Okay. All right. Well, for the Hearing record, maybe we should say Mr. Stearns told me he was the Permit Officer, among other things, for the Department of Public Works in Tompkins County. And so when I called down there, I didn't know who to call and I was referred to him right off. He seemed to be the appropriate individual. J. PachaL We have a couple of options because I'd like that information to be solid . One, can you check your answering machine remotely? L. Raymond: I've never done so , so I don't know as I know how to do it. J. Pachai: All right. And the second thing would be not a swearing in, but - - L. Raymond: Oh , yes. J. Pachak ' For Mr. Eckert to phrase that the best way you know how. Because I would like that to be a solid piece of information because that's significant, It's awfully easy to want to hear what somebody said or believe what somebody said, but really to have it as hard evidence. L. Raymond: Well, the other option we have is that we don't have to have a Decision Meeting tonight. We can defer the meeting to another time and then seek further information clarification . G. Morey: But, Lyle , didn't you already talk to him? I mean, did he see concerned when you were talking to him? L. Raymond: Yes . His first answer, when I talked with him, since this is a Hearing everyone's free to say what they want, but I was aware when I called him that there were two levels that we needed to deal with here, and one was immediate maintenance and so on, and was there a problem with that? And he told me no . And he also told me that he had mentioned to Mr. Eckert that he didn't want the Page 12 of 23 v Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 garage to be closer to the road than the front of his house -- to be lined up with his house . And if it was any closer than that, there's going to be a real problem. G. Morey: But it still is going to be the same? L. Raymond: With the house , yes, as we all explained earlier in the Hearing here, the house itself, being an older house, is closer to the road than the Code now requires. It's not by a lot, but it's some closer to the road. That's right. S. Thane: But do we know the exact measurements? L. Raymond: Well, as I said, we measured the house and, because it's not square with the road, but the one we measured was the one that would be the nearest to the road. And that came out that it was 8. 5 feet over where it should be . Eight and one-half feet short. M. Decker: Short. L. Raymond: Yes, yes. S . Thane: Would that make it 47 feet? Forty-six and one-half? L. Raymond: Eight foot less than the 55 . That's right. What the house is now. G. Morey: What are the outside diameters from the corner of the garage to the road? Is that still eight feet? M. Decker: Not on the frontage . L. Raymond: Not on the frontage . G. Morey: So how many feet is it from the outside diameter of the garage to the L. Raymond: 30 to the front lot line . M. Decker: To the front lot line . L. Raymond: That's what the Code calls for. Or 55 from the centerline . Page 13 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 M. Decker: He's asking what it stands right now. Is that what you're asking? What are the dimensions right now. L. Raymond: Well that question, I think, is a good one . I'm going to get to that. And I'm glad you raised it. The dimensions were given in the last variance hearing as, what did you say, 50 by 50? R. Eckert: 52 by 52. L. Raymond: 52 by 50, yes. That's the dimensions of the garage . And at that time in the last Hearing, since we were not concerned with distance to the road since you were legal, we were only concerned with height. And so we did ask you questions, as you will recall at that time, on the first one as to whether you could adjust the dimensions of the garage, or whether you could use a smaller garage to suit your purposes. And, I think that question has now come back to us with perhaps a bit more emphasis because of moving the garage closer to the road is perhaps another level of seriousness from the height dimension. So I would say can you -- you feel there's no way that you can adjust that garage by having it -- since that's a fairly large structure in the first place -- there's no way you could have that maybe 8 or 10 feet narrower and live with it? Because if we did, you wouldn't have to have a variance; you'd be quite legal . R. Eckert: I can't because of my truck. I want to park my big Q-van in there, and I want to park her truck in there . And I got my toolbox and Bonnie and I want to do projects . I want to -- I'm a Scout leader and I plan on being a Scout leader for quite some time here at this point. And I want to use that room in there for that, too . And my house has absolutely no storage in it at all, and I want to put some storage things in there from my house . L. Raymond: Now you have other room on your lot, do you not, where a storage facility could be constructed and, therefore , you could diminish the garage by that amount. Is that an option? R. Eckert: Not really. L. Bush: Not really because there's a garden and a playground out there . R. Eckert: I have the garden and playground up out back and I can't do anything out front on the other side of my house because my leach field and septic system run out there . L. Raymond: Now originally, as I understand in the previous history of that, you have joined two former lots together. Is that correct? I believe you came before the Planning Board to do that, and both of those lots did not meet current requirements as I recall. They were non-conforming lots. But by putting them together, why you have a conforming lot. Is that correct? Page 14 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 R. Eckert: Yes, L. Raymond: And what are the dimensions of the lot? Maybe it's on here. What's your frontage? With the two lots together, what's your total frontage? J. Pachai: 193, L. Raymond: 193 feet. The Town only requires 150 so you've got 40 feet extra space there beyond the 150. S . Thane: Is it possible to incorporate that retaining wall as the back wall of the building? I mean that would save you six feet right there . You'd only have to bring the building forward four feet to maintain the original dimensions of the building. R. Eckert: It's possible , I suppose . But with a great deal of expense . I've already -- so far, I've put $ 14, 000 in just the excavation and getting the blocks there and having the blocks put up . And then, on top of that, I had -- I hired the guy that comes in there and tells you how to do the wall after the wall fell down. He's cost me $ 1300 on that. And to have, like what you're saying to put a basement in, that would be -- I'd have to get rid of all those blocks and that would be a considerable amount. S. Thane: Didn't you say the retaining wall fell down? R. Eckert: Yes, it did . That's why I'm -- L. Raymond: Yes, you can see it there . S. Thane: So it has to be rebuilt, right? R. Eckert: Yes, but L. Bush: We can't use those blocks for a back wall. R. Eckert: Yes, I can't use those blocks for the wall of the garage . S. Thane: Why is that? I mean, there are 100-year old barns sitting on stone walls/ foundations. R. Eckert: I'm not really 100% sure, I'm not in construction. I'm not into that. I used to be an auto technician . I'm only going on what other people have told me . Page 15 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 L. Raymond: Did I understand correctly? You have changed who's in charge of your construction since the first wall was put up? R. Eckert: Yes, Gary Wood. He's the one - - I still have the same people doing the construction as far as that wall, but Gary Wood is going to be -- he's the one that drew up the plans and he's the one that's going to be coming in there and inspecting everything as this wall's going up. M. Decker: Who was in charge prior to that? R. Eckert: It was Rick Preston. And he obviously hadn't put one of these things up before. He figured that these blocks weighing two ton apiece wouldn't go anywhere . And those blocks were up for a day and a half, I think. J. Pachai: That would be a concern of mine with my knowledge of construction and dealing with water problems and hydrostatic pressure. You've got these blocks; if you were to use them for part of the structure, you'd be -- what do we figure, 10 feet or so, 12 feet, actually at the side , and -- S. Thane: No, no . The wall's only going to be 6 feet high . M. Decker: But you're saying using those blocks. J. Pachai: You can incorporate drainage , but that still -- you're still going to have water pressure against there . And even if it didn't come down , you'd have a bear of a time using those particular blocks, you know, trying to seal them and whatnot. S . Thane: But this isn't a habitable building. It's a garage, right? J. Pachai: Right, but you don't want water streaming through it. L. Raymond: Yes, the pressures are tremendous. S. Thane: So you're afraid the wall might fall down and damage the building? L. Raymond: Yes. S . Thane : If the wall falls down, it's going to damage the building anyway. J. Pachai: I'm only thinking in terms of the water. Page 16 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 S. Thane: And that's if you seal the outside . Again, if you put drainage on the other side and keep the water away, there is no -- J. Pachai: The other thing is, is this concrete, scrap concrete that's poured into blocks like that for retaining walls, or is it of a structural quality? R. Eckert: The concrete that those blocks are made out of are definitely - - when the trucks go out and they still have extra concrete and they come back in , they throw it in. These blocks are $45 apiece, and I have 100 of them there . L. Raymond: Needless to say, and it's no news to you, that you have a very difficult site that you're working with , and that excavating back into a hill anywhere and putting walls up - - you see it all over town where people put up walls and the walls are all broken by the pressure after awhile . It's pushed them back. And even with your new construction scheme , personally I would have some doubts as to the long-term viability of that wall, no matter what you do. Because the pressures on especially the wall you're putting in -- it's so high -- that when you get water in behind that soil, the pressure is absolutely fantastic . I don't have the figures here , but I have seen as probably some of you have, some of the figures on the per square foot pressure that can be put against the wall, and it's absolutely amazing. So you have a very difficult site that you're working with here, and struggling with as I understand. It comes back, I guess, to the basic question again -- that you feel that you've explored all of the other options for configuration of that building and that wall so that you could have what you want and not to have to encroach upon the 55-foot distance? R. Eckert: If there was a way I could do it, I would. Here , at this point, I know I would . But, like I say, I only have limited funds here, too . And I can't, like I say, I've already got $ 15,000 into this construction already and I don't even have a wall that's up here . I'm not really sure at this point, with the geofabric that we have to get too now -- L. Raymond: I was taking note of the fact when I was there, which I didn't mention to you , but I noticed that that new ditch that goes up there is so deep where they've already worked on it -- and that if you move the building closer to the road, and sometime in the future they had to work on that ditch again, and widen it for any reason, you're literally going to be sitting on a cliff above the ditch with your wall. Because you've already got a tremendous amount of fill in there in order to get across that ditch . I took note of this. S. Thane: Are there any utilities that run up that road? Natural gas or anything like that? R. Eckert: No. Page 17 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 L. Raymond: None that come down the road . S. Thane: But if that were put in, it would have to be on that side , right? J. Pachai: Right. It would seem so . L. Raymond: Good point. S. Thane: It would never fit on the other side because the houses L. Raymond: You've got a row of houses right up to the road on the other side. Well, have we explored all the questions that we need to with Mr. Eckert here for us to begin to think of a Decision. My Board members, have you got any other concerns or thoughts that you want -- or are you ready for this? And, John, I guess what questions you raised about information from Mr. Stearns either we delay our Decision Meeting from tonight to a future date so that we can get the straight story from Mr. Stearns, or if we feel we want to go with what information we've already extracted here in the Hearing for a Decision, we can do that, too . Personally, I think I'd be willing to go with what we have . I think that S. Thane : Mr. Eckert, are you hoping to get this up before snow flies? Because if you're waiting until spring, then it doesn't make any difference -- L. Raymond: If we delay the Decision. R. Eckert: I did want it up for the winter, yes. Because I've got stuff on my porch because I cleaned out my shed just to move that out back. My porch is full because right now I'm not an auto technician anymore , so I've got my toolbox there and I don't know what I'm going to do with that, and all my tools. And I'd kind of like to get those out of the weather. S. Thane : So there is a time factor here, then. R. Eckert: Yes. I've already bought the fuel oil for the place; I thought it was going to be up two months ago . L. Raymond: Well, we can hold another meeting fairly soon. We don't have to have a Public Notice because it would be given right at the meeting here if we deferred our Decision, say, for another week or two, and I explored further from Mr. Stearns just exactly what the future would be . How about it Steve, Mary, John? Page 18 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 S. Thane: I'll be here next week, except for Monday. I'll be out of town then. J. Pachai: I'll be here. L. Raymond: Mary? M. Decker: Okay, L. Raymond: All right. Let's look for another date , and when we get done we'll close the Hearing and we'll delay our decision until we get further information. I've got my schedule here and , let's see what my schedule is for those dates here . Today is the 23rd; I'm open next week most of the -- I'm open next week. I'm pretty open in the evenings . The week of the 29th, the 29th through the first, second , and third -- and what I don't know is the schedule for the -- you got the schedule , Joan , for the Town Hall here? J. Fitch: No, this is my schedule . I'm not available the 30th ; that's the Town of Cortlandville meeting night. L. Raymond: When are you available? J. Fitch: Monday, Wednesday -- L. Raymond: Monday, the 29th , and Wednesday. S. Thane: I 'll be back in town Monday evening. L. Raymond: Oh, Monday evening the 29th? S. Thane: Is that a possibility? J. Fitch: Mondays okay. L. Raymond: How about the rest of you? Monday, the 29th? Okay. Then we will defer our Decision until Monday the 29th at 7 : 30 , The only thing I haven't checked, however, is whether the Town Hall , this building, is being used . We can always go over to the other small room; we can probably fit in. And I'll check with April and make sure, and we'll just go ahead with it. Okay? J. Pachai: I'd like to solidify a few points that we're going to -- some additional information -- Page 19 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 L. Raymond: Before we close the Hearing? J. Pachai: Yes. L. Raymond: Okay. J. Pachai: One is the one that we L. Raymond: Clarify what Mr. Stearns had to say, right? J. Pachai: That's no reflection on your integrity or honesty, it' s just a matter of sometimes -- yes, just getting the whole picture and, you know, being able to ask a couple of questions in response to what he has to say. The other thing I would like to do, and have you asked -- your engineers are recommending this 10-foot move, or let me restate that. Are they, whether they 're recommending it or not, are they, do they see any problems that they looked at it; have you talked to them about it? L. Bush: No , they don't think so. J. Pachai: I was thinking in terms of what Lyle was saying and the excavation of the ditch and the location of the structure's wall. And also, there's the runoff from the roof, being such a large structure. Are you planning on putting eaves up? I'm just curious. It's not official. Because with it being on a slope and with the ditch being right there, you may find yourself suffering a lot of erosion between the structure and the ditch . R. Eckert: Yes, Rick Preston talked to Jerry Stearn about that and Jerry Stearn already told him where to put the drainage and everything out and how to put it in the driveway and everything. J. Pachah I see. That's good. L. Raymond: Yes, that was a thought I had too. M. Decker: Is there a survey that we might find out what kind of, you know, as to where this -- how close this lot line -- what we've got back here for stakes? How do you -- is that what you were trying to figure as to how it fits onto this lot? J. Pachai: Yes . Not so much this way, but this way. L. Raymond: Well, are we doing this for the Hearing record here? This conversation? Page 20 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 J. Pachai: Yes, I'm sorry. I should be speaking louder. I was trying to calculate it from here. But I suppose there wouldn't be a problem -- you have a survey? M.Decker: Do you have a survey, just for the heck of it? J. Pachai: A survey of each of the parcels. R. Eckert: I bet I do somewhere . L. Raymond: Was it surveyed when you joined the parcels together? R. Eckert: No . L. Raymond: You didn't have it surveyed? R. Eckert: I didn't have to have it surveyed to join them. L. Raymond: So you just went with what the deed description was for the two parcels. R. Eckert: I don't know. I was thinking I should have a map of where it is. It's pretty neat to see the boundary lines because the hedgerow, all that goes to the back of my house -- that's my property line. It's fairly easy to see. J. Pachai: Has Gary Wood drawn anything up that shows the slope that's going to result? R. Eckert: Yes he has. J. Pachai: Because if we could get copies of those - - L. Bush: Mark Gunn has a copy. L. Raymond: Oh, Mark has got a copy? All right. J. Pachai: That should give us something to work with . I'd like to see a couple of different elevations. I'm sure that he's got those . R. Eckert : Gary Wood's right here in Groton . Page 21 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Hearing 23 November 1999 J. Pachai: Right. One of my concerns is that with the granting of the initial variance was because the structure would be back against the hill so even though it's a huge structure for a residential area, it would -- L. Raymond: The height was not going to show up - - the height wasn't going to show. J. Pachai: That location would make it more discreet. L. Raymond: Yes, it would make it stand out more by moving it out farther, that's true . M. Decker: It's such a large structure, that if it comes up to be front with the house here on the east end, I don't know. Then it's just going to become a huge structure all of a sudden. It's big to begin with . You know what I'm saying? And you bring it up to match the house. I was looking at it, you know. Stopped by there . L. Bush: Our neighbors called and asked if they needed to come. I told them they only needed to come if they opposed it. Nobody cares. J. Pachai: I think Mary's just making a person observation . If you take two large buildings and you don't have any definition between the two of them by bringing them closer together, that little space inbetween them is going to make the two structures seem as one. So we're going to talk to Stearns. We're going to get -- L. Raymond: And we're going to talk to Mark Gunn and get the engineering drawings . J. Pachai: Right. L. Raymond: And then we will come back on Monday, the 29th and make our Decision. J. Pachai: Sounds like we want to make another visit up there . M. Decker: Yes, I've never been up back. I did the front, but I'm not familiar with the back. L. Raymond: All right. Okay. Are we ready to close the Hearing here? I think we are. Okay, the Hearing is now closed . It's 8 : 30, and the Hearing is now closed and we'll see everybody on the 29th for our Decision Meeting. The meeting on the 29th, by the way, will not be a continuation of this Hearing; it will only be the Decision Meeting. And so you will probably want to come and listen to our discussion. So. Glenn, and Tyke, you may want to come too since you started out with it and hear what we decide. But I'll just emphasize again it will not be a Public Hearing at that time. We've closed the Hearing and we will only meet to decide, so everybody will just listen in. Page 22 of 23 Town of Groton Zoning Board of Appeals Public Nearing 23 November 1999 J. Pachaie And see how we decide. L. Raymonde And see how we decide , that's right. Jo E. Fitch Recording Secretary Page 23 of 23