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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1972-04-25 PUBLIC HEARING ON PROPOSED SOVOCOOL HILL ROAD SUBDIVISION Held in the Groton Town Hall Tuesday - April 25 , 1972 Groton Town Planning Board Members present were : G . Totman , Chairman R . Cotanch Z . Kane D . Payne R . Gleason F . Scheffler Also present were : H . Dow - Town Supervisor B . Bucko - Town Attorney H . Hamilton - Attorney representing Feho Land Corp . J . Daugherty - Engineer for Feho Land Corp . and approximately 35 persons from Groton . G . Totman : It ' s a little after 8 P . M . Sorry for the delay . My name is George Totman for those of you who don ' t know me . sum do I am the chairman of the Groton Town Planning Board . (Mr . Totman then read aloud the Notice of the Public Hearing which was published in the April 19th issue of the Journal and Courier ) . The purpose of this gathering tonight is to inform the people of the Town of Groton and the adjacent property owners where the proposed subdivision is planned of what is proposed and what has been presented to our Planning Board . This is a matter prescribed by law by the State that in order to � have a subdivision developed in the town the developer presents his presentation to the plann - ing board and they , in turn , after accepting the presentation ( not accepting the proposal but only accepting the presentation of it ) have to , within 30 days , hold a public hearing so tonight our purpose is to inform people of what is being proposed and let you ask questions and from this point on the planning board will have 45 days in which to make a decision to either accept all or part of this presentation or reject all or part of it . We want you to feel free to ask questions . At this point the planning board has made no decisions . At this time I would like to ask Mr . Harry Hamilton , attorney , who is representing this Feho Land Corporation ( he ' s a lawyer from Ithaca ) to explain to us as he sees it what is being proposed . H . Hamilton : Members of the Board , ladies and gentlemen , I don ' t know if you can see this but these maps on the board are the plans for the Nelson Schaenen farm on the north side of Sovocool Road and to the west of Sincerbeaux Road some 246 . 6 acres in this parcel . 1 - H . Hamilton : There are a total of 23 lots shown here , together with the road system 12 , 700 feet long . I had to measure it to see how much it will cost to erect or whatever . One of those lots contains the present buildings on the farm and this probably will be sold itself as far as our plans are now as a whole with whatever buildings can be used on it . These are 10 acre plots . I know this is the first time this subdivision has come up in the Town of Groton and that many of us have had anything to do with a subdivision of 10 acre lots . Exactly what will be done on these , I can ' t say . They are going to be sold as lots and we have no plans to build homes on there but if someone wants to buy and develop them into home sites they will have to go back to this board , the Health Department and get approval for sewer and water . The Health Department has approved this overall project and it is on the original maps which I will give to the Planning Board tonight . There will have to be other public hearings if someone wants to develop these 10 acre lots . If someone wants to build a pond and stock it with fish or build a camp we have nothing to do with this but whatever who buys it wants to do with it . I don ' t know that I can tell you any more . If someone wants to buy the whole project they can buy the whole project . I believe 4iy clients plan to sub - finance these properties . If someone wants to buy one with a dollar down and a dollar when you see me . Wouldn ' t be surprised if there would be quite a demand for 10 acre lots . Can I answer any questions from the Board or members of the general public ? G . Totman : Thank you , Mr . Hamilton . As you ask questions , please give your name so Josephine can get it down . We always take minutes and the main purpose is so we can study them afterwards and make our decisions from that , so please give your name if you would . B . Houston : Are your clients going to build these roads before these lots are sold ? H . Hamilton : Some won ' t even need a road . For instance , this one fronts on the highway . I don ' t know whether we will or not . I think a lot depends on what people want to do with these lots . Now we guarantee to the Town of Groton , and you people , that if they are put in they will be put in to the specifications of the Town . B . Houston ; Supposing somebody buys that lot right up on the right - hand corner - - that ' s about 3 miles from the nearest road . H . Hamilton : That ' s a long way . R . Sincerbeaux : If you go uphill it wouldn ' t be , Bert ! 2 - B , Houston : I want to ask Ben Bucko a question . In our zoning ordinance is there anything to prevent this company from selling off these lots along the road to somebody who might put in five or six trailers ? B . Bucko : They can sell the 10 acre lot but they have to meet the requirements - -has to go through the subdivision regulations , H . Hamilton : The thing that will limit this is the Health Department . Anybody that wants to do anything on there the Health Department will say come and talk to us , It can ' t be done unless the Tompkins County Health Department approves it . Ed Trinkl : What would stop one man from buying 10 acres to build a house on and then his friend comes along and he sells him 2 acres of his 10 and then sells 2 more to somebody else ? B . Bucko : When this plan is approved by the Planning Board it is going to be approved completely with roads being constructed and everything , Whoever buys individual lots will have to go through the mobile home regulations board or the planning board . A person can put a single home on there but if he subdivides has to go through channels . R . Sincerbeaux : Does this go for anybody putting a camp in , - - the sewer pro - visions ? H . Hamilton : Has to have the health department ' s approval . B . Bucko : Are there going to be any deed restrictions ? H . Hamilton : We hadn ' t planned on any . B . Bucko : I was thinking about restrictions in building a house say under a certain amount of money . M . DeGraw : On my particular place I ' m adjacent to that on about 4 sides , - - leaves me up to about 1 - 1 / 2 miles of fencing . What about that ? The entire north line and west line clear down all the way and part of the south line , H . Hamilton : Are you a party fence ? M . DeGraw : Who will keep those fences up ? B . Bucko : They will still have to be maintained by whoever owns them right now and whoever buys the lot will have to maintain them with you . M . DeGraw : I ' m particularly interested in that right now . B . Houston : I know some area farmers who have been forced out of business be - cause the assessment has been raised on their property the same as on property they sold for building lots . Is there anything in the assessment law , outside of agricultural districting , to protect adjacent farmers so their assessment won ' t be raised up ? H . Hamilton : Not to my knowledge . - 3 - B . Houston : If this really takes hold certainly the assessment on these 10 acre lots will be different than for the whole farm and if it ' s worth this kind of money the assessors will get wise to it and all properties on West Hill will be raised . B . Bucko : I can ' t speak for the assessment department but I don ' t think they have done this in the past in many of the areas . G . Totman : I think it would pay you to talk to Mr . Cline . He mentioned this type of situation last week when we had that meeting and he said that individual farmers could apply for one of those districts I f they saw the need to do this , H . Hamilton : I think a lot depends on the fact that you are still farming because this happened one place in the Town of Ithaca but as long as a man is actually running animals or using the land for pasture it ' s not permissible to raise his assessment on the grounds that later the land might be sold for other purposes . H . Dow : I was at a meeting in Ithaca recently and heard Tom Payne speak , and if a farm is active you ' re going to be left pretty much alone until it ' s changed to some other use and if farmers are active and operating I don ' t think there would be any change in your assessment rate . B . Huston : At the present time , - yes , but what about a year from now? Mrs . Oliver : If you don ' t farm your land will they raise your taxes ? H . Dow : I think there is a growing sentiment that as long as farmers don ' t speculate and sell land for subdivisions will be left alone . Can ' t be sure of anything . I wouldn ' t be alarmed if I was adjacent to it . B . Bucko : I don ' t think the County Tax Assessment Bureau will change all the farm land or assess them differently because a subdivision comes in . It could happen but I don ' t think it ' s going to happen in the near future . R . Cotanch : I would like to get back to this road situation again . I was laboring under the wrong impression that the developers were going to actually build these roads before the sale of the lots . H . Hamilton : Perhaps this will happen . I don ' t know . Actually I ' m sure you ' re well aware of this , - you sell your best lots first to finance development of the rest of them . R . Cotanch : As a member of the Board I would have to take a hard look at approving this without the thought of the roads being built first . H . Hamilton : Actually the law says you can ' t sell lots without assess . B . Bucko : The Planning Board can take the position that no lot can be sold until arrangements for the construction of the roads is made . - 4 - R . Cotanch : I understand the cost factor very well . H . Dow : Have you gone to the point where you have tentative figures for road construction according to our specifications ? H . Hamilton : Yes , - -not specifically , - -but generally . B . Houston : Will they be gravel roadsx H . Hamilton : The specifications require gravel roads . If we don ' t build them according to your specifications the Town won ' t take them over . (Mr . Dow explained what the roads would have to be like to meet the Town of Groton ' s specifications . ) H . Hamilton : There are two other factors involved - - the Town won ' t even plow or give mail service either without roads so you see you would have to have roads there . E . Trinkl : You have some wet spots going across there and will have trouble making an adequate road , M . Jacobs : Where will the water go that runs off these roads ? B . Bucko : That ' s why you ' re here to express that , G . Totman : That is one of our main concerns . We have contacted the Tompkins County Soil Conservation Department and they will be making a written report to the Planning Board and that will be part of the information we will use to approve or disapprove these roads . Naturally if a 30 inch ditch is put in and a 20 acre plot of land is pretty well underwater it will flow down the ditch and where does it go from there ? Will it go down to the Village or flood neighboring farmland and this sort of thing , - - this is what we have to find out . E . Trinkl : Adding on to what Mr . Jacobs said . I bought Neilson ' s place and there all that water from the gully comes right down through that section I bought down there and that whole 40 acres . B . Bucko : Where is that at ? E . Trinkl : Right at the corner where Myron ' s land is and right through mine to the main creek so if you have any water coming that way it will all go down there . G . Totman : We ' re glad to hear your comments . This is what we are looking for . G . Henry ; That lot in the back - - on Sovocool Hill Road , - - you put a drainage ditch 6 " through my land - - right now the least I ' ve seen that run is 4 inches , in the spring of the year it ' s full plus overflowing into our backyard ! - 5 - H . Hamilton : This whole thing isn ' t going to be paved , - -now suppose you have the situation where you have ten acres with 10 houses on it then you will have some water but these are ten acre lots . Some of them may build there own ponds and want all the water they can get . With one house you won ' t get much more than you have today . Go out to the airport some time and see the water that stands out there - -not on the grassy part . Rose Brown : Where do you plan on getting people to buy these lots ? In this vicinity , New York City or where ? H . Hamilton : I have no idea . Assume we will use the normal media to advertise their sale like� inewspaper advertising . But I really don ' t know , - - that ' s not my function . G . Totman : Mr . Hamilton is their attorney . H . Hamilton : I have no financial interest in it other than acting as their attorney . B . Houston : I don ' t think it makes any difference . If anyone comes along with the money to buy they have to sell to them . R . Brown : You know there are some people one just as soon not have living near you . B . Iudton : They would have to be pretty well off people I would think . Those lots are going to be expensive . H . Hamilton : I don ' t even know what they are going to sell for myself . Mrs . Oliver : How does Groton feel about it ? Any comments from other people ? G . Totman : No . Mrs . Oliver : I think most people would think it would be alright . G . Totman : Whoever buys one of these parcels of land will have to come back when they want to develop it as they will have to come within the subdivision regulations and have to reapply for a permit . Mrs . Oliver : Doesn ' t make much sense if someone can put up a house , - - someone else a camp , - - that is what bothers me , Tif you know nice houses are going up that would be fine but if you don ' t know what is going to go in I don ' t like that idea . E . Trinkl : How soon do you plan on starting on this ? H . Hamilton : This depends on the planning board when they make their decision and take action , - - tomorrow possibly or possibly never . R . Sincerbeaux : What are these subdivision regulations ? B . Bucko : They tell you what the subdivider has to do , - - conditions the planning board can put on the development of the area , - - develop ,- . 6 - ment of the roads , where drainage is to be , density , all those things and it is something that the Planning Board can ' t decide overnight , Mrs . Oliver : That ' s fine , -wouldn ' t want you to do that , B . Bucko : Let me show you just for instance what they have to do , - - (Mr . Bucko then read aloud to everyone Article 3 . 3 . 4 of the subdivision regulations in regard to the consideration the Planning Board must give to the various factors involved before approving subdivisions . ) R . Sincerbeaux : Was that in the Groton Journal a little while back ? B . Bucko : This is different from the zoning , Z . Kane : This has been in existence for sometime but we haven ' t had to use it until now . Mrs . Oliver : What if other people move in and who is going to pave the road , -. - they will have to be paved , won ' t they ? B . Bucko : Eventually the Town would do it . Mrs . Oliver : What about our school , - is it big enough for all those people or will we have to build on to that again ? B . Houston : It would depend on what type of families move in there but with the cost of these lots don ' t foresee any people with small children moving in , - - they can ' t afford lots like that . I don ' t think this project would have any effect on the school for the next 10 years , B . Bucko : Unless all the lots were divided into 5 lots . B . Houston : If that happened there would be enough assessment put in to pay for that . This is what has happened to the Town , - - lots of trailers have moved in with not enough tax base to pay for the extra children . What would be wonderful is to have $ 30 , 000 homes built on each of these lots . That would put us on easy street , Z . Kane : It wouldn ' t be possible for five to be put orr each of these lots because the Board of Health wouldn ' t pass it , would they ? B . Houston : According to the maps that I have there with the soil it takes about an acre to support a good septic system in that particular area . H . Hamilton : I don ' t believe the Health Department is issuing any permits for an acre anywhere in the County . Think the present minimum is 1 - 3 /4 acres for any structure . B . Houston : I ' m wondering if anyone looked into the financial status of this organization , - -whether we have a fast buck operator coming into the area ? - 7 - H . Hamilton ; He has paid for the farm so has quite a bit invested , I would say . B . Bucko : Has the property been transferred ? H . Hamilton : No . B . Houston : I have no more questions , - -might as well go home and watch TV . H . Dow : Is there a possible bottleneck in our thinking with respect to the highway construction - when will you initiate the building of the roads and at what time ? H . Hamilton : That is a matter for the planning board to decide , I think . H . Dow : Your client has he made any commitment ? H . Hamilton : To be frank with you he never heard of a subdivision or ordinance in the Town of Groton so he hasn ' t made any plans as yet , all the money invested in these maps and my fees goes down the drain . B . Bucko : You understand , of course , that the planning board is not going to approve this tonight ? H . Hamilton : This is a matter you will decide within the next 45 days . H . Dow : Bill Mobbs , County Engineer , has agreed to act as engineer for the Planning Board and I think that is the next step to be taken to be sure that the drainage question with regard to roads can be reconciled . H . Hamilton : This is our commitment , - -no roads will be made that don ' t agree with the specifications of the Town of Groton . G . Totman : Are there any further questions ? This is the basic function of our meeting this evening , - to explain it to you people and listen to your comments . I ' ll stay here all night if we have comments but , if not and there are no further questions for the planning board or Mr . Hamilton , then we will adjourn . Feel free to stick around and ask individual questions if you want but if there are no further questions I see no point in staying here staring at me any longer and I want to thank all of you for coming . ( THE GENERAL PUBLIC LEFT AT 8 : 45 P . M . ) The following people remained for further discussion : H . , Hamilton , J . Daugherty , H . Dow , B . Bucko and all the Planning Board members mentioned on page one . H . Hamilton : First of all I want to thank you ladies and gentlemen for taking the time and trouble to assist me with this matter . Now I want to read you a clause in this contract that I didn ' t draw but will have to fulfil , - - are you keeping minutes of this ? G . Totman : Yes , we always do , - - they ' re nice to have to read over later on . - 8 - ( The following is the clause Mr . Hamilton referred to (which was taken down in shorthand from the contract be - fore he left ) "Paragraph 5 : It is an express condition precedent to the closing of this transaction that at the time of closing there shall be no law or regulation which would prohibit or substantially impair the right of the buyer to make separate individual sales of the property in parcels of land of not more than ten ( 10 ) acres each ( including easements for access and for utilities ) , nor which would require any kind of registration with , or obtaining permission from , any state or local governmental authority in connection with such separate in - dividual sales . It is a further condition precedent to the closing of this transaction that , at or prior to the closing , the seller shall obtain written acknowledgment from the appropriate governmental authority or official in Tompkins County , New York , certifying to the conditions in the pre - ceding sentences hereof . " H . Hamilton : When this contract was drawn I had no knowledge of subdivision regulations in the Town of Groton . We were in $ 1 , 000 to $ 1 , 500 expenses when we found this out and I talked to my client and he said to go ahead and try to satisfy everybody . It ' s a con - dition of the contract that it will not be closed unless he can sell 10 acre lots under those conditions . 12 , 700 ft . of road . The best estimate he can get , and it is not an estimate on the ground and may be even more , is $ 6 . 00 per running foot for that road so that is 76 , 000 dollars for the road and as you are probably well aware the Gas and Electric is now required by State statute , effective June 28th , to put in underground cable whereas overhead is for free as long . as you have users but the underground costs $ 6 . 00 per foot except for the first 60 ft . Take a 10 acre lot may have 500 ft . frontage so you can see it will run into a lot of expense to put in underground service . If I prove there is a demand for that service soon enough so the Gas and Electric can plan it and start actual work they will put in overhead service for us . When I talked to my client about underground service he said he won ' t put any in ,, -- - if somebody wants it let them put it in . We talked about the road system and he asked if he would have to put the roads in and I said yes unless the planning board will make some other arrangement so this is where we are . You take $ 76 , 000 for roads and the .. expense of underground service would have say $ 142 , 000 expense before you start . This plus my expense for 25 abstracts and so on will run about $ 150 , 000 for the project before you even sell a lot so you can see will have to get $ 15 , 000 per 10 acre lot before you start talking so I ' m hopeful the Town Planning Board will be lenient with this road business . Now another thing this gentleman has never built anything in the north country , - - he ' s used to building roads for $ 1 or $ 2 ft . where there are no drainage problems and even at $ 2 . ft . would be $ 24 , 000 but he could get by on this but it looks to me like if the Planning Board is going to require us to put those roads in I ' m going to have to tell him he can ' t afford to buy it because we are paying $ 48 , 000 for the farm - 9 - H . Hamilton : and with $ 150 , 000 more expenses that ' s close to $ 200 , 0000 H . Dow : How much of that is your underground utilities service ? H . Hamilton : 22 units would be 1320 ft , off 12 , 000 ft . - -would still be a lot of money . D . Payne : If it was approved and you could get the Gas & Electric to run above ground where will they run it if there aren ' t any roads ? H . Hamilton : Again , I don ' t know . It may be they will say they can ' t do it without roads . Z . Kane : I thought they wouldn ' t do it unless there was a home there needing the service . H . Hamilton : If it will save me $ 75 , 000 can afford to have someone start a house there . B . Bucko : The men down at the Gas & Electric told me unless you had an actual house built they would not put any service in and would have to be under construction prior to June 28th . This is what he told me last week . Z . Kane : And that is two months from now . B . Bucko : And on the basis of that they told me they had no choice . H . Hamilton : Duane Winters ? B . Bucko : Winters , right . H . Dow : The Town people can ' t be in the real estate business . We are limited by our statutes and requirements and the ordinance and as you know the specifications . H . Hamilton : But there ' s a provision for a waiver at your discretion . H . Dow : I don ' t see how a waiver coming from anybody would serve any purpose . If you have a waiver to postpone development can ' t get utilities and everything backtracks . H . Hamilton : I don ' t understand you . There ' s no postponing of the development if you approve this tonight . B . Bucko : Who eventually is going to construct the roads ? H . Hamilton : As long as it isn ' t the Town of Groton , what difference does it make ? B . Bucko : It can ' t be the Town of Groton and in the second place the regulation requires people to put up a bond saying these conditions will be met . H . Hamilton : Believe me 3T you turn it down I ' m in the soup . It says : " Provision of certain required improvements . . . . . " - 10 - B . Bucko : For the public health and general welfare . If the Planning Board doesn ' t want to waive , - - H . Hamilton : This is a matter within their discretion . G . Totman : Your point is well taken as far as your cost is concerned and when we meet again it will be taken into consideration . I would like to throw this open now to let members of the planning board ask you any further questions they would like to ask . R . Cotanch : I would like to get back to restrictions on individual lots . Our zoning ordinance is quite lenient and the sub - division is likewise . A development that would enhance the Town of Groton or improve its tax base would be one that would require the building of houses of such a nature that would add on to our tax base , not add on to our taxes , if you follow me . I own a lot in a subdivision in another State and have restrictions on that lot a yard long . I feel deed restrictions would improve the saleability of them too . Here you might have a $ 20 , 000 home and next to it maybe a pup tent . H . Hamilton : Still we are dealing with 10 acre lots - - I doubt anybody in the State has had much experience with this size and it ' s hard to say what you can do . R . Cotanch : I ' m sure it would be hard work to write up the restrictions but just say the footage or something would be of concern to me . H . Hamilton : It is not planned to put any restrictions on them . B . Bucko : So the buyer doesn ' t care what is on there once he sells the 10 acre lots ? H . Hamilton : That ' s right , D . Payne : To get this 10 acre lot a man has to come up with $ 15 , 000 to $ 20 , 000 so won ' t . put a pup - tent on it . H . Hamilton : I think it will be attractive to some apartment dwellers from New York City who might come up and putter around and build a place and have a pond and put fish in it , - - I don ' t know . B . Bucko : But there are no restrictions ? R . Cotanch : In the meantime we ' re sitting here with no tax money coming in . H . Hamilton : It ' s hard to say , - -you can ' t do away with 8 x 30 trailers . They have to live someplace . Z . Kane : We know , - -we have our share of them . B . Bucko : This town since Homer and Cortlandville prohibited trailers has had everything moving to the Town of Groton , - -probably about 200 trailers have moved in within the last two years . 11 - H . Hamilton : I have no idea what might be developed on these 10 acre lots but whatever is done will be restricted by the Health Depart - ment . D . Payne : I agree with Ron that there should be some deed restrictions . Also we should get some information from the engineer . G . Totman : We are going to have to . The Town Board didn ' t have an engineer but now have one designated so will have to get in touch with him and we are going to have to be concerned with water run - off assuming there will be roads and , .- - that one J section the road will run east and west along the north side of the J section which for all practical purposes is under water now - if you put a road there with 30 inch ditch if I know anything about water at all it will run into the ditch which has to run some place and we have to be concerned as to where it will run and also can it be handled economically by the Town and all sorts of things and we will have to get this information from the engineer and evaluate it before we come to any decision . We will have to meet with the engineer and try to come up with what is best for the Town and for you but have to take into consideration the welfare of the people that are already here . 'That ' s the way my observation is . H . Hamilton : Actually your waiver on the road could specifically state that it is a condition that the Town of Groton will never have to construct highways therein . B . Bucko : The waiver should state that the roads will be constructed by the owner or whoever buys it will scream . H . Hamilton : You can say who bought it like that can live light that . B . Bucko : That ' s why I would recommend a performance bond on the , - - as a condition of this being , approved , - --because I can see 12 , 000 ft . of road here that ' s better than 2 miles with lots of problems on drainage to the Village as far as depressions are concerned . All of these have to be studied and what the Planning Board does after they get the facts is up to them but in all cases that I have been involved in where there have been waivers that you develop it as you sell a lot a performance bond is given by the builder that he is to construct that road not relying on the guy that buys . H . Hamilton : Your experience has been different from mine . B . Bucko : I have represented developers in the Town of Onondaga and H . Hamilton : You ' re a big shot lawyer . I have had them in Ithaca and none of them have required that . B . Bucko : Because in the final analysis the Town has to pay unless a performance bond comes in . H . Dow : What has been your experience , Mr . Hamilton . Who built the road eventually ? - 12 - H . Hamilton : The subdivider . G . Totman : Have you dealt with a development of this nature where the developer or owner has been an - absentee owner like now? H . Hamilton : He ' s investing $ 50 , 000 to start with . Seems like he must be substantial . G . 7btman : As I see it that could be well and true but he could sell off half of these lots and he could disappear and somebody that ' s bought a lot wants to put a home on it or subdivide his land and goes back and wants a road put through and we try to contact the developer and he is no longer in existence . H . Hamilton : It ' s the individual ' s responsibility who buys knowing what he is buying . I really think he won ' t buy it without a way to get into it . So possibly it will be a factor for the developer to put a road in . B . Bucko : Harry , - - a guy buys Lot K and Wes to build on it without a per - formance bond that road will not be built , right ? Let ' s say D and E have been purchased and the road is built up to the north boundary line of E and then K comes along and buys a lot and your corporation will say yes we will build a road up to the north boundary line of K but he goes broke without - - H . Hamilton : There ' s another factor if you built part of that road will have to build the whole thing so the Town of Groton will take it over . B . Bucko : These roads should be under a performance bond saying this is going to be completed and if it fails to be completed the Town can do it and be paid by the bonding company so that no - body will be stuck and whoever builds on it will be assured of a road and if there is any default the bonding company will take care of it . R . Gleason : Assuming you were going to do it the way you are talking , suppos - ing we said O . K . we will allow you to build it up to the end of Lot E because those lots were sold . At what point will the Town be supposed to take over the maintenance of the roads ? H . Hamilton : You take it over whenever the Town Board agrees to take it over . If the Town Board says don ' t take it over until the whole thing is done , - - - R . Gleason : Who , in the meantime , is going to take care of keeping the road plowed in the winter time ? H . Hamilton : Not the Town of Groton , - - that ' s the reason there is a turn- around up there . R . Gleason : Is your company going to do it ? H . Hamilton : So much depends on what is up there . If somebody builds a $ 50 , 000 house he is going to say how do I go in and out . R . Cotanch : What do performance bonds cost ? 13 - H . Hamilton : It varies depending on the amount that is demanded . B . Bucko : The developer has to be approved first . R . Cotanch : It ' s like taking out an insurance policy . B . Bucko : He has to show that this is going to be developed in accordance with the plans and cost projections . R . Cotanch : 0 . K. so if we project that it ' s going to be $ 100 , 000 worth of bond ? B . Bucko : But if he defaults then the Town can construct it and whatever the costs the bonding company has to pay . R . Gleason : Whatever the cost is ? Suppose this went on for 10 years ? Obviously it ' s going to cost more to build then . Z . Kane : It has to be done within two or not more than three years . H . Hamilton : Any regulation is flexible . It says in the back if you find reason to can make exceptions . Z . Kane : But we put that in our acceptance right now . If there is an exception we put it in now? F . Scheffler : Has this actually been sold ? H . Hamilton : No , not unless it is approved . Z . Kane : And that man has never even seen it ? H . Hamilton : Conditions weren ' t the way he thought they were . They weren ' t the way Mr . Schaenen thought they were . G . Totman : Mr . Schaenen is an absentee owner too , isn ' t he ? H . Hamilton : Carl Haines lives there now . F . Scheffler : Schaenen has been around . G . Totman : Well , we have a job ahead of us . H . Dow : What would happen , Harry , if your client was asked the question would he operate within the framework of a performance bond ? Would he turn it off cold ? H . Hamilton : I don ' t know . B . Bucko : It all depends on the company . They will not issue a performance bond unless they find out he is a substantial person and has a good background on performing . H . Hamilton : This would be increasing the cost , - -whatever the performance bond cost eventually will have to come up with $ 80 , 000 at a given time . H . Dow : Seems to me the whole thing hinges right around that . - 14 - s ' H . Hamilton : I really don ' t know how you can get around this with building underground service and sewer and water , - - this will drive it out of sight for a normal individual . More discussion was held on this by H . Dow , H . Hamilton , B . Bucko and others . G . Totman : We thank you for coming up , Harry , needed to have you hear . If you have any questions I might answer don ' t hesitate to call . (At this point Mr . Daugherty and Mr . Hamilton left . ) G . Totman : The engineer who looks this over has to take into considera - tion where the roads are to be put in and where the water will go after it reaches the property and whether the Town sluic'eways can control this , H . Dow : It will have to be the Town ' s concern to keep it up if the road is of short life and short duration , once we take it over it can be expensive . Mr . Mobbs is very experienced . G . Totman : He has to know what we are thinking about , F . Scheffler : It ' s important to know where the water goes after it reaches the property , G . Totman : This is what the people are most concerned about , Z . Kane : That ' s just what we have talked about here too . H . Dow : It looks to me like a request for a performance bond is the only route this Board should take . We have to take the developer pinned down somewheres , - can ' t accept it on any other basis , B . Bucko : Before they issue a performance bond they are going to check cost and whatever the Town Engineer says and they are also going to check the Corporation out too . D . Payne : Also see if it has backing , Z . Kane : Right , or if it ' s a fly by night corporation for this thing only . H . Dow : We ' re talking of Clark Street Extension $ 12 , 000 mile , 3 inch top on the base that ' s there now and I can ' t see that would be less than $ 2 . 00 a foot . B . Bucko : That ' s just for the top . H . Dow : That ' s for grading , topping and ditches . B . Bucko : The State of New York on the Erwin Plan calls for $ 9 , 000 a mile , This is what they will reimburse on . This is the projection they give on the cost of the road , 15 - G . Totman : You ' re talking Town Highway rates . F . Scheffler : Another thing , - - on this Erwin deal you already have a road there . H . Dow : This figure he quoted tonight is $ 31 , 000 a mile . That would build quite a lot of road of this type . G . Totman : He will have to fill more low spots . Z . Kane : Just like building a road right from the start . F . Scheffler : He crosses that swamp twice but also has to go through a swamp on the lower part and will require a lot of fill . R . Gleason : That ' s what I was wondering - - - -what about a swamp like that ? B . Bucko : Just because specifications call for 12 inches of gravel , etc . that doesn ' t mean they take an area there and put 12 inches of gravel in and that ' s it , - - the road has to be built in accord - ance with the specification on grades . G . Totman : It ' s almost ten o ' clock . This is going to take a lot of thought but , Ben , correct me if I ' m wrong , my observation so far tonight is we have had our public hearing , have listened to the people and listened to the subdivider ' s- proposal and he put a lot different light on it than we had before . Now we have got to make a decision as to whether to accept or reject the whole proposal or accept the proposal with certain qualifications and to me this looks like the route I ' ll look at it from , - - O . K. we want development but in encouraging development have to do it in such a manner that it enhances the Town and properties around it and by doing that may have to set certain regulations on that tract and once we do that we can approve it . B . Bucko : Right . G . Totman : Our next regular meeting night is next Wednesday , May 3rd , and from that meeting will sit down and discuss all this and when we are all done have got to write a thesis on our findings . B . Bucko : There are going to be a lot of things you ' ve got to do with Mobbs ' information . G . Totman : Yes , we have to have Mr . Mobbs make his survey and I think we should meet with him . H . Dow : I think some member of the Planning Board should accompany Mr . Mobbs and Corny . Is your next meeting in May ? G . Totman : Next Wednesday , May 3rd . I ' ll get in contact with you to - morrow and see about setting up a meeting with Mr . Mobbs and also see that a member of the Planning Board goes with he and Corny and also if possible , - -you ' re paying him on call ? H . Dow : Free services up to now . - 16 - G . Totman : I would like to invite him to come to one of our meetings and answer questions for the Board . About all we can do now is to get more facts together . H . Dow : How about a tentative date on when you want a member of the Planning Board to meet with Mobbs and Corny and I can get back to you with a date . G . Totman : You have him pick a date and if I can ' t get any of the members to go that date will go myself . H . Dow : Alright . I ' ll call him in the morning . G . Totman : Before we close up , did everybody get a copy of the minutes of our last meeting and the Soil Survey Report that was taken and if you have copies of that map they have to be brought back . H . Dow : Will you tell me what Mr . Mobbs should bring with him ? Some discussion was held on a member of the Planning Board who has not attended any meetings for sometime . G . Totman : While we are here discussing that I feel we have a problem there . H . Dow : You mean public intoxication or something ? G . Totman : No , - - non - appearance . H . Dow : I have a feeling his interest is at a - low ebb . G . Totman : The point is if we are going to have a seven -member Board maybe we should think about replacing him . More discussion was held on this by H . Dow , Z . Kane and others and Mr . Dow suggested he be phoned and asked if he could come to the meetings md , if not , might be possible to replace him . It was decided that Mr . Totman would get in touch with him . G . Totman : Has anybody else anything they want to bring up tonight ? The meeting broke up at 10 P . M. Respectfully submitted , &ZE e ine Bell - 17 -