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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1992-06-25 . , TOWN OF GROTON ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS + PUBLIC HEARING THURSDAY , JUNE 25 , 1992 at 8 : 00 P . M . BOARD PUBLIC PRESENT * Lyle Raymond George Senter , Zoning * Nial Smith Enforcement Officer * David Ofner DeForest Hall , Groton * John Pachai Mary Decker ( * present ) LYLE RAYMOND , Chairman of the Board , opened the public hearing with the reading of the notice . The purpose was to consider the application from Charles T . Carlisle , 7 Gulf Hill Road , McLean , New York , for a Variance of Section 319 . 2 , pertaining to sign setbacks of the Town of Groton Land Use and Development Code . Tax Map # 38 - 6 - 18 . RAYMOND : I have here the application that says he has paid his fee for a permit for the sign . According to the application for a Variance , it says the purpose is to allow room for a sign in the front of their Bed & Breakfast . The Ordinance doesn ' t allow for enough room to place a sign in the front so that it would be visible , according to his statement here . He points out that Section 319 . 2 states that no sign can be located closer than 10 ft . to any road right - of - way or over hang any road right - of - way , which you can find in our Ordin - ance . Has everybody viewed the Bed & ' Breakfast over there and seen the situation ? Dave and I went over the other night . George , as Zoning Officer , do you want to make any statement on this ? SENTER : He makes a point . You are not allowed to be any closer than 10 ft . to the right - of - way and if he does , it will be hard to see the sign . RAYMOND : I didn ' t measure where he wants the sign . Did you measure exactly how much is he off ? SENTER : No . 7BA C ,/ 2 5 ,/ 9 2 Page 2 RAYMOND : It didn. ' t look like to us t; hat; it; was going to be off that amount, if he put. it opposite where Fie has a l. ittl. e pole with a Light on top , on t; Fie ot. Fier side fo the sidewal. k . It: looks Like probably Fie is going to match it. , I would guess on the other side . rhat can ' t be too much off of 10 ft * is it ? SEwrER : You can ' t go in. Uie right of way . Fie knows that . R .YMOPID : fie has down. here 18 -Ft . and 28 ft , 28 :` t . is from where , the center of the road ? SEN' I' E % : 25 ft . It should be 25 ft . It is a 50 ft . road . RA ',MONDo IM is 28 ft, from the center . Fie says the sign is going t. o be 18 ft . from Elie center of the road . SEPITER : rhat coul. d he a problem that way . Fie wil. l. he right into the right of way . rhere are mail. boxes into the right of way . RAYMOND : He is saying 18 ft . from t; he right of way . How many feet does t; lie right of way take , George ? MaER : 25 ft . I am not t. 00 ;- ure if that ' s what lie is saying . PACHAI : I don. ' t. think it is because from the 'edge of the road to the sidewalk , looks to me to be about 8 -'; 0 10 ft . 'rhe sidewalk is about. 4 ft , looks Like 16 to 18 ft . to the bushes and looks like 14 to the house . So , that is from the edge of the road , not the center . RA'c'MON!',: : rhis 18 ft . t; hen. , is also from the edge of t; he road ? Do you know , George ? MITER: I wish the guy had shown. up . PACiiAI : rhere is a dotted l. in. e drawn in here starting at t; lie same point which appears to be the center Line of the street-. . RAYMOND , Let ' s assume it is the center Line of the street . That sign , where he wants to put it , can ' t . be that; far out of whack . Z13A 6 / 25 / 92 Page 3 Mi,rER : He is saying that; 28 ft. . to his horse is from the center of the road . RAYMOND : Now , 18 ft. which lie has on. Mere , lie has the arrow short on. t; hat as if lie is coming from Ghe center of the road . Maybe he means the center . ( Referring to map ) The right of way from the center of the road out , that you can ' t pint; the sign in , is 25 ft; . from the center . So , that means lie can. only have the sign. 3 ft . from the house then. . SEPJ'rET : Ile leas t. o be 10 ft. . back from the riglit of way . It has got to be 35 ft . from the center l. in. e of t; lie road l. in. e . RAYMOM) : The right. of way is the edge of t; lie right; of way . Ile leas to be 35 ft . from the center of the road . Ile is 18 ft. . now , so , lie is 17 ft . short . SEvm : If lie put it 35 ft . , it is going to be back beyond where the liouse is . RAYMOND : If lie were liere , I would like to ask him at couple questions as to why lie has to have the sign. there . One of the al. tern. a - tives would be to put; a nice sign . . leas a big white porch across the whol. e front of the liouse and lie can. have a nice sign coming down a couple of wires hanging right t. liere facing the road , right over the porch. We are going on. the idea that most of his business is going to be referral. business not from people just passing by ; not there , not. in that. neigh - borhood . A1. 1. they want to know is when. they call from i: he directories of Bed & Br. eakfasts , theyswil. l. know where to find him . A sign. on. the porch , it would seem to me , woul. d do the samt7j thing as one sticking out in. the yard . ZBA 6 / 25 / 92 Page 4 PACHAI : It might have to do with the sign already having been con - structed . I was talking to a neighbor , and they indicated that the sign that they want to use is the one they had at a former Bead & Breakfast . RAYMO 'vD * He wants to use the same sign . I think the point of this comes back again to the observation that probably the bulk of the business for a Bed & Breakfast in that location is not going to come from people just driving by casually . They will look at the directories or catalogs to see where they can get a Bed & Breakfast . PACHAI : George , how wide would you say the pavement is there ? Fe el, SENTER : 30 i` lcLkes , maybe . PACHAI : How wide is the pavement ? SENTER : The road itself is a 50 ft . road . 22 ft . pavement . RAlMOND : If he puts it on the house , a business has a right to ad - vertise on their building , right ? OFNER : If you turn it down just on the basis of the distance of the right - of - way , how did you know if it was too close to the right - of - way ? SENTER : That is a good question , the survey map . I didn ' t measure . RAYMOND : I saw it . If you are going to use 35 ft . from the center of the road , my recollection is , a few feet footage may be a little off but not that far off . He has a porch with two railings on it that come out on the steps . If he wanted to , he could also rig up a sign to fasten on the steps . He wouldn ' t have to put a pole up on the . road . OFNEl : I don ' t look on the ground when I look for signs , I look right at the house . ZB )�- 6 / 25 / 92 Page 5 RAYMOND : How high is his sign going to be , did he say how high in height ? SENTER : He has actually 18 ft . from the center line . He wants to put the pole right in the right of way . I told him I denied. it because he was in violation of sign setbacks . RAYMOND : But if you told him he was in the right of way , we can ' t give him a Variance . OFNER : Was he talking about 18 ft . from the center of the road ? ( referring to m,.ip ) PACyAI : I saw that , but in looking at the property and being a fairly good judge of distance , it seems as though , from the edge of the pavement to the house , is almost 30 ft . What I see is about 28 ft . from the edge of the pavement . RA'iMO :vD : So , if he is within the 25 ft . , we can ' t do it within 25 ft . any way . SENTER : In Tompkins County , if he is going to submit an application to place the sign in there , then maybe it can be considered DFO , a Deadly Fixed d' er . They won ' t allow that in a right of way . RA'iMOND : Is that a County road ? SENTER : Yes . R ,-:YMOND : He is going to run afoul with the County regulations , not us . Have we gathered all the available evidence for the hearing ? He has alternatives , it is apparently within the road right of way , which goes beyond our jurisdiction . HALL : Sc , what you are saying is , the signs have to be back so many feet ? SENTER : Whatever is out there , if it was out there before the Zoning got involved , it stays . RAYMOND : The other thing you could do is have a movable sign ; ZBA 6 / 25 / 92 Page 6 RAYMOND : just as l. on. g as you can move it . r ( Hearing closed at; 8 * 25 P . M . , Decision meeting opens ) PACHAI : According to the in. formcition provided , we find that where lie wants to place the sign is in. the County right; of way and is outside of our jurisdiction. . OFNER : I don ' t know if we have the autliorit`y to set the terms since it is within our Town because 'it is not. a 'Down. road . RAYMOND : If we do decide to grant a Variance , we can. do it on. condition. that it is also cleared with the County because it is in. the County right of way . SEPJ'rER : I don ' t think you have the authority to grant a Variance for a County right of way . RAYMOND : That is what I am saying , we can. grant it with the provision that they had to get it approved by the County and we know they probably imion. ' t do it . PACHA *i : 'rhat; is al. m(:) st; like going to the Zoning Board of Appeals and asking for a Variance on a structure within a develop - ment that hasn ' t yet gone through the Pl. ann. in. g Board . OFNER : George , does the County have standards for setbacks of houses along the right of way ? SE ?vrER : I think they do , but I am not sure . RAYMOND : We find that: the proposed location of the signs is within the County right of way . The second fin. din. g is that the Variation , given the distances we were given. , be substantial. for what is required by the rown Code . He ". r- eal. l. y ' )wan. ts Tte have it right out there . So , I would make it a finding that it is substantial. in regards to the Code . There is no effect , however , on population. density or change in. the ZBA 6 / 25 / 92 Page 7 RAYMOND : character of the neighborhood . Now , in terms of the practi - cal difficulty , observing the dimlansions regulations , we make a finding that there are reasonable alternatives to where he has placed that sign . The sign is in a County right - of - way and the Variance should be denied . There are reasonable alternatives . Also , this , is a substantial Variance in footage . We can ' t dictate where the sign is going to go . PACHAI : Do we know specifically where that line is from the edge of his property relative to the center line of the road ? SENTER : The edge of his property in this particular case , is 25 ft . from the center of the road . That is where the property line is . RAYMOND : The deed lot is the one that goes to " the center line . SENTER : County and Town road right - of way lines , John , are 50 ft . wide . The center line back to your property line is 25 ft . on County and Town , 33 ft . on State . Your setback goes from the right - of - way back . The property line goes to the right - of - way . The deed line goes right to ,the center of the road . You pay taxes to the center line of the road . OFNEI::. : Do you have the dimensions of the sign ? RAYMOND : George will take care of that . OFNER : We don ' t care how big it is , how can we approve it ? RAYMOND * We are only deciding on approving the location of the sign , not its size . OFNER : Where is that dimension ? RAYMOND . It is in Section 427 , page 87 . SENTER : He still needs a permit for size . OFNER : " A sign attached to a structure is part of a structure and allowed with a use permit . ZBA 6 / 25 / 92 Page 8 RAYMONf) * So , are we going to deny it for substantial variations from the Town requirements and because we have concluded that 1 there are reasonable alternatives other than a free - standing sign ? NIAL SMITH makes motion to deny the ,, Variance . DAVID OFNER 11 seconds the motion . Variance application is denied . ALL IN FAVOR /MOTION PASSED ( Meeting closed ) . I , SANDRA D . DILLON , DO CERTIFY that I did type . the recorded minutes of said hearing on the case of Charles Carlisle , and that the minutes of said hearing were taken and the foregoing is a true and accurate copy to the best of my ability . Sandra Dillon * Nate : Minutes were reviewed by the stenographer whom took the taped minutes of above ; Peg Palmr . U TOWN OF ( ROTON ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS PUBLIC HEARING THURSDAY , JUNE 25 , 1992 at 8 : 00 "P . M . BOARD PUBLIC PRESEPJT * I,yl. e Raymond George Sen. ter , Zoning * Nial. S1,. ith Officer * David Ofn. er Robert W . Knapp , * Jolin Pachai 754 Spring St . Ext . Mary Decker Groton. , N . Y . ( * present ) LYLE RAYMOND , Chairman of the ; Board , ) pen. ed the public hearing with the reading of the notice . rlie pi:i !rpose was to conside the application. from Robert W . Knapp , 754 Spring St . Ext . , Groton. , New New York , for a Variance to Section. 353 . 1 ( d ) , minimum yard depth of the 'Down. of Groton. Land Use and Development Code . Tax Map # 321 - 2 - 6 . RAYMOND * What; I have Here is an application. toll the Zoning Board of Alpipea1s . 'PYie fee is paid . According to the appl. icat; ion. for a Variance here , it says lie is short 7 ft . on. the set - back requiremi=' nts and would appreciate, more privacy by having more room . See the reverse side of the drawing and you wil. l. see what; he intends to do by adding onto the front of his house . That would make him 7 ft. . short, ir of the required setback - froin' : t, Yi = . . band �, Usen & Development Code . ( referring to drawing ) ✓ It had been. rejected by the Zoning Offficer because of the insufficient; setback from the road . George , as Zoning Officer , do you have anything to remark on this at al. l , or slioul. d we proceed ? SEPvrER : You slioul. d proceed . This is a Dead End Street . Fie is going to encroach on. l. y on hissetback :i The setback tie has in. this Zone is 30 ft . Fie tiii be encroaching on. that 7 ft . I don ' t think it; real. 1y changes the ir'n. ten. t. that. much . It keeps pretty much in l. in. e with the neighborhood . RAYMOPJ:G : Do you have an statement that; you want to make Yiere on, your behalf , Mr . Knapp ? ZJBA 6 / 25 / 92 Page 2 KNLN. PP : That Street is not. a . heavily traveled highway . I RAYMOND . Eklerything is pretty much as . you indicated liere . 11 KPIAPP : The biggest probl. em is when you come down. the road , when. I come out of the bathroom , you , can. see right through the l. ivingroom . You can see right through the picture window . I want to move the front of the liouse out and puttlie doorway and the windows on the side of the house , 11 so that it is not a clear shot at the inside . RAYMOND : You don ' t feel. you have any al. ternative , for instance , huil. ding on. the back instead of the front ? KP1A1` P : If I move off the back , the only tliin. g I am going to do is that there is a bedroom and kitchen in the back , it woul. dn. ' t; do me a bit of good . I don ' t; need a bigger bedroom or a bigger kitchen. . I woul. d like to extend the front of lie house out on. l. y to change the doorway . RAYMOND : So if you were to extend the back , then. you would have to p� l. iteral. l. y change the wliol. e interior of your house and put your kitchen in. another place and everything in another place . KPIAIPP : I woul. dn. ' t ever consider it . ( referring to drawing ) RAYMOTM Any further questions ? Mr . Knapj.) ? George ? That is a Town road isn ' t it George ? SENTER : Yes . RAYMOND : Spring Street ext . anal this Cortland Road Ext. . must. have come together there . PACFFAI : Where the house sits , at an an.gl. e to the road , the widest dimension. is 28 ft . , did anybody measure _ tlie shorter dimension. ? 43 BA 6 / 25 ,/ 92 Page 3 SEPITER : I know how the drawing looks , lie is stil. l, in the right Of way . RAYMOND : I will. close the hearing . You fol. ks. 'lmay stay around and we ' 1. 1. be deciding on. the case . The hearing part is closed : We wil. l. be going into our meeting which is our decision. part . According to the Section. 427 liere , that we are supposed to follow , these are regiAlremen. ts for, granting Variances for Dimension. regul. ation. s . ] avid , remember , the State guidel. in. es are not in effect , yet , not until. Jul. y 1 , 1992 . So , we are following the ones that tle Town. Code has . Section. 427 is on. page 87 . There is on. l. y, on. e major finding that, is Mr . Knapp wishes to add to the front of an exAstin. g non - con. formin. g liouse and that the addition. wil. l. be 7 ft . short. of the requirement: in the Land IhUse and Development Code for the district that; tie is in. . That is a low density residun. tial. district .,, We have also got to decide the effect. of any increase in the population. density on. ' development . So , we can say that our finding is that; tliere will. be no in. crea ,_ e , no effect !' whatsoever , on. the population density in the neighborhood . Plumber three , whether it will. produce a substan. t: ial change in. the character of the neighborhood , our finding is that; it wil. l. not produce a substantial. change in. the neighborhood - Number four , whether the practical. difficulty creased by the applicant can. be overcome by some ether method reasonap.) l. e for„ the appl. ican. t. ''to pursue . Given. the minor difference from the required status that this is tIDA :rost. J reasonable sbl. ut: ion to the ap'"pl. i cant s' problem . u , ZBA 6 / 25 / 92 Page 4 OFPJER : I woul. d like to get something clarified ; would this put him out; too far , woul. d it reduce his , setback from the center l. in � ? If it was 35 ft . back , it wouldn ' t bea probi. em . SEPJ'PER : Ile is 57 ft . back right now . OFPJER : According t: o the Ordinance , then. , tie woul. d have to haVe an ex ;:. en. tion within. t; he Ordinance 1imit; s . RAYMOND : Phe house may be non - conforming in other respects , but it is not non - conforming in terms of the present setback . ( Referring to Section. 321 , PJon. con. forman. cc, ) OFPJER : This extension is the on. l. y t; hin. g th -Ut; will. put t; tiis beyond . We are asking for a Variance for the present front l. in. e . R; YMOPJD : If we on. l. y take that portion of the ' liouse , that portion is not non - conforming . The side dimensions are on. l. y out of conform=In. ce and not the .- overall . footage .. of theb . lot :' 1 - I1:1 the. fron. t; of his house was al. ready too close to t; he road and tie wanted it even closer to t: tie road , ttien tie would be adding to a nonconformance , but we are not . SEPJTER : Ile has 75 ft . of road frontage and 208 ft . of depth . So , tie is about 15 , 000 , maybe over a third of an acre . If you look at: Section. 321 , page 57 , read the first para - grap'f-k , third sentence down on. ttie right . IZA'c'MOPJD : the nonconforming property is not. t; o '` be enlarged upon , expanded or extended . SEPJ'PER : The lot it sel. f is non - conforming . OFPJER : Phe non. - conformity is in t; tie depth of the lot , not in the distance from the right of way . 'Phe non. - conforming aspect of that lot is not, related at al. l. . If t; tiat; were non. - conforming already , tie coul. d not expand t; tie n. �:jn. - conformity . The Ordin. ancc4 woul. d prohibit it: . ZBA 6 / 25 / 92 Page 5 RAYMOND : What George is trying to say is that the whole house and lot is non - conforming , it is also Grandfathered . What we are saying is that we are trying to divide that out . OFNER : It is a non - conformity because a dimension is non - conforming and that dimension is not anything that applies to what we are talking about . We are not expanding the non - conformity that makes that lot non - conforming . We are expanding the part that is in conformity at the moment . Another example would be if he had 5 ft . from the other property and he wanted to go another 5 ft . out , that would be intruding upon the non - conformity . R, YMOND : There is a further point to make here , and that is , the Zoning Board of Appeals has the right to make interpreta - tions of the language in the Code . lWe need to make one other finding and that is even though the building and the lot as a whole is a non conforming lot , we find that the front portion of the house is in conformance with the regular Zoning Code at the present time ; so , therefore , this is not an extension of a non - conformity . If we make that statement in there for our interpretation , that sets us on record that that is how we are setting a precedent by doing that . I would say we should put that in there so that others will see what our reasoning is . OF1VE ):: : To simplify it , it might be easier to say that the present setback of the house is in conformance with the Ordinance . 7DA 6 / 25092 Page 5 OFPIER : but ti-le l. ot size and the frontage are the n. on - conformin. g . SEPI'PER : What we have always done , if you have a non - coe� forman. ce , it has a Iot; and a liouse on. thi= lot , if you expand , enlarge , or extend that; property on that. l. an. d , we have always had to do a Variance on. it . OFPIER : My personal. reaction is , you are over cautious . I woul. d rather you be over cautious than under cautious . I think you have to see wha ;: i .; n. on. - con. formin. g but; you are better protected if you l. et. us say it . RAYMOPID0 We find that-, the front; setback is conforming . The fron. t. distance is conforming even. though the area and fro d. age are non - conforming . We need to Note a . correction. . Section 353 . 1 ( b ) is Max Lmum Structi;u e Dimension. in Height . rlie :: correct sectio "I which we are refe . rin. g to is . 353 . 1 ( c ) , Lena Density District in the Ordianan. ce for Minimum Yard Depth . Now that we have our findings , do we want to gr �� nt a ',Tarian. ce or not ? I would say , given. the fact that the Variance is riot; substantial. and it wil. l. have no real. effect on. the character or population, density of the n. eig's'.borhood and there wil. l. be a practical. difficul. ty in. the appl. ic .i. nt achieving what lie wants in any other way . I think this Variance sliouId '.je granted . PACHAI : Basical. l. y , lie can ' t. get what lie wants in any other way given that we found an. increase in sgi;lare footage was also desired . DAVID OFPIEI: inotioned to pass the Variance . PIIAL SMITH second the motion . Variance was gra!`n. -Ced . ALL IN FAITOR /MOTIO .,,! PA `:aSED ZBA 6 / 25 / 92 Page 7 I , SANDRA D . DILLON , DO CERTIFY that I did type the reco -r.- ded minutes of the Robert W . Knapp case ar. c'. the aforegoin. g is a true and accurate copy to this best of my alai l. ii. -I \ 1 nAA LJ Sc n. ra Di l. . on. * Note The above minutes were reviewed by the stenographer , Peg Palmer , who took the taped minutes of the above .