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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1972-04-05 GROTON TOWN PLANNING BOARD MEETING Held in Groton Town Hall Wednesday , April 5 , 1972 8 : 00 P . M . - 10 : 00 P . M . G . Totman , Chairman* F . Scheffler* D . Payne* Z . Kane* R . Cotanch* R . Gleason* E . McLaughlin Others Present : H . Dow , Town Supervisor* J . Wargo , Chairman Zoning Board of Appeals* J . Dougherty* J . Bell* * - Denotes those present G . Totman : You all have a copy of the minutes of our last meeting . I assume you have read them . Z . Kane : Not really . G . Totman : Do you want a minute to read them more thoroughly before you move that they be accepted ? Z . Kane : Yes . G . Totman : Are you ready to approve the minutes of the last meeting? R . Gleason : I move that the minutes be accepted as written . Z . Kane : I second the motion . Motion was carried . G . Totman : Did everybody get a copy of this Road Specifications for Subdivisions ? These are specifications the Town Board set up at their February meeting this year with certain dimen - sions , cross - section of roads , also shows slopes and so forth . The main part of our meeting tonight will be devoted to Mr . Daugherty who is an engineerk* representing a developer for a new subdivision but this is also our annual meeting night for election of officers so which do you want to do first ? Z . Kane : Shouldn ' t we wait so as not to hold him up any longer than necessary ? G . Totman : We have to elect a chairman , vice - chairman and appoint a secretary to do the phone calling . R . Gleason : I think we ought to go ahead with the developer first . G . Totman : Mr . Dow , - this is our annual meeting night and normally hold election of officers but we will take care of Mr . Daugherty first and hold our election afterwards . H . Dow : May I suggest you go right ahead until Ben comes . 1 - G . Totman : Ben called me and said he was not coming . H . Dow : He told me he was . How long ago did he talk to you ? G . Totman : About 6 : 30 or quarter to seven . H . Dow : I ' d better phone him and find out . Z . Kane : I think we should wait as I ' m almost positive Frank will be here . (Frank Scheffler walked in at 8 : 15 P . M . ) (Mr . Dow telephoned Ben Bucko ' s home and was advised ( that he was out and on his way to a meeting with the (Town Board - - ) G . Totman : We are here then to listen to a proposed subdivision up on Sovocool Hill and have you gone over the regulations of the subdivision , Mr . Daugherty ? J . Daugherty : Yes , the Town Clerk gave them to me . G . Totman : As I understand the regulations in helping draw them up , what you are doing tonight is making your presentation - - formal presentation before any action can be taken , - - two copies have to be submitted to the Board so we can study them . J . Daugherty : Yes , I understand that . I have five copies with me . That ought to be enough . G . Totman : The reason I mention this is I ' m hoping you are not here to - night hoping to have our approval . J . Daugherty : This is the first step as far as we are concerned . G . Totman : At this point then I would like you to explain what you would like to present to us . J . Daugherty : O . K. Could probably see it better from the Board . (Mr . Daugherty then put up maps on the board for all to look at . ) First of all , let me make an explanation here . This bottom sheet is just a preliminary drawing . Finished field work on the survey last night so the map will be in final form like this one by the middle of next week and I will see copies are brought over as soon as its complete . Basically it ' s a large lot subdivision . The future owner wants to divide it into 10 acre lots . Now we have been to the Health Department with this and have taken enough percolation tests through the general area so they have already given their approval as far as sewage disposal is concerned for the whole area for this type of sub - division . Basically this is north up here - Sincerbeaux Road and Sovocool Hill Road - - the heavy line is outline of the farm itself and this line down there is the outline with an exception here and , of course , these exceptions here . - 2 - We are proposing a loop section roadway roughly following this and , by the way , I don ' t know whether you would classify this - - in your subdivision you have three different classifications - - I think that should be 60 ft . instead of dropping it to 50 . I notice tonight that when we put these two roads together there ' s a little dog lane here which isn ' t good so will take it out and move it so will get rid of it . In addition , up in this section through the loop road section have a dead end road here that is longer than I like to see them and I don ' t know how it complies with your regulations but there was no other way of dividing this corner of the land other than putting a long dead end over here . As far as the road is concerned , this does present an opportunity for clearing the road out farther to the north if it happens that this is necessary . The road down here in this side has to come along one boundary here and will give this owner the use of this road to develop his land if it ever comes up . Basically that ' s it . The thinking behind 10 acre lots is that somebody would have available up through here wooded area - - someone might want to buy a large parcel of land for a summer home or something like this . If anybody wanted to buy two or three 10 - acne sections they would have to go through the entire subdivision process all over again including Town Board , Health Department and all those things but , as far as this owner is concerned , he will be dividing it into 10 - acre parcels and that is all . H . Dow : Have you talked to Mr . Hamilton about extending utility services and lines ? J . Daugherty : Yes , I think there ' s a cut - off date coming up - - June 28th and all subdivisions after that time will have to have under - ground utilities and the people that are interested in this subdivision want approval on it before then so they won ' t have to go to that expense especially with such large lots . G . Totman : You ' re 100% positive that the person buying this tract of land now is not contemplating on breaking these up into smaller subdivisions ? J . Daugherty : As I understand it , he ' s not . If he is , he will have to take any one of those 10 - acre lots and go through the whole process again . G . T otman : That ' s the point that will have - to be made loud and clear that if an approval comes frorin this it will be just for 10 - acre lots . R . Cotanch : Would there be any future complications on utilities if one of those 10 - acre land owners in the future would subdivide into three or four lots and would be required to put everything underground ? Would this have to come then from the overhead lines along the road ? J . Daugherty : Yes . R . Cotanch : This would be O . K. with the Public Service Commission ? - 3 - Mr . Daugherty : Yes . Where I live in Ithaca would be a good example of that . We have the overhead wires and they came down the pole and went underground for the new subdivision . H . Dow : I checked the Commission ruling on that last week and as you say if the utilities go in before the 28th June the company takes care of the full cost . The contractor doesn ' t pay a cent but , after the 28th , the company will still put 60 fte underground for each unit but everything above those 60 ft . the contractor or owner or what -have -you would be paying out of his own pocket at the rate of $ 6 . per ft . and once it is underground the line that runs underground in front of the house to the house would cost $3 . 50 ft . J . Daugherty : This will add quite an expense to future building but it ' s certainly going to come . R . Cotanch : This as you said is an unusual layoutand the cost would be practically impossible if you had to put everything under - ground . J . Daugherty : I doubt he would try to subdivide it this way if he had to go to that expense . H . Dow : Why couldn ' t the owner right now , before the 28th June , re - quest the electric line to be run along the highway through out his 23 units and then be subject to the expense of hook- ing up after the 28th of June ? J . Daugherty : This is a question Harry could answer better than I could . R . Cotanch : One thing that comes to mind . This Board has gone on record as recommending underground utilities as much as possible . At the same time would like to say we are certainly looking for a good healthy development like this too . The percola - tion tests up there , - -our 701 tests show a rather heavy area and they might run into trouble if - - J . Daugherty : The Health Department feels that the general tests that we took indicate to them that the average is good for the area . Sure there is , for example , right in through this area here quite a swampy area in the corner of this 10 acre parcel . F . Scheffler : That "J" area I don ' t know where you would build a house on that . J . Daugherty : Your creek runs right in through here and this picks up in elevation through here . Z . Kane : Whoever buys " J" will probably buy 2 or 3 other lots too . People are looking for places where they can buy land and not be building right up next to somebody else . F . Scheffler : That "J" would be the only one I would say that doesn ' t have too much dry land on it . H . Dow : The ones on the south side there are all pretty good layouts in terms of dryness . R . Gleason : Down there , - - there ' s some pretty wet ground there . - 4 - J . Daugherty : Let ' s see , - - there ' s a stream cuts across right through here and that ' s a fairly low area - - at least 1 /3 of each of these lots , - - and then , -well there are no major streams through here . G . Totman : Does anyone else have any questions they would like to ask ? H . Dow : Do you have any information , Mr . Daugherty , as to when they might begin to break ground ? J . Daugherty : The way they have been pushing me , I would think it would be fairly soon but , no , I haven ' t got a definite date . These people from Florida and New Jersey don ' t realize the kind of winters we have up here . G . Totman : There ' s a certain time element we have to go through here , - - like having the public hearing and then coming back and making our decision . If this Board took the full length of time it could take at this point would take it past the 28th of June so would have to move it right along to get it in there . J . Daugherty : Can you give formal approval fairly soon after your public hearing ? G . Totman : The law saysAhave to give it within 45 days but it can be any time after the hearing and if it looks favorable , well - - H . Dow : It would seem to me that the interests of all of us could best be served if we could move reasonably soon to beat that June 28th deadline . J . Daugherty : Yes , - - that would have a decided bearing on the plans for this area . G . Totman : Have you any more information on this from Mr . Hamilton , Hicks ? H . Dow : Mr . Hamilton said his client was impatient but I think that is past now and that he realizes it is quite typical for these regulations but I was suggesting we move this project , so he can find his buyers for his 10 - acre lots . Mr . Winters at the Electric & Gas Corp . said that after the 28th they definitely would have to put utilities underground and , at this time , are all set to put them in free above ground . R . Cotanch : Do the future owners intend to do some building this summer ? J ` Daugherty : That I do not know . R . Cotanch : They. are in the business of just selling lots ? J . Daugherty : Mr . Hamilton couldn ' t make the meeting tonight and he could have told you more about this type of question than I can but from what he has discussed with me I haven ' t heard that they are planning to build anything themselves . R . Cotanch : Our construction periods are short in this area . R . Gleason : Would you say the power lines would follow the roads ? - 5 - J . Daugherty : I would assume that they would more or less follow the roads . In through here I don ' t see any reason why they would have any reason not to . In through here with the first of these roads they couldn ' t very well go down the middle and service everything off one line . I would think they would have to come in right along the roads . R . Cotanch : In the future say every one of those lots was sold for re - o subdivision - - then it might possibly mean/oppen space in there . J . Daugherty : This is a possibility , - - yes , it is possible . R . Cotanch : It ' s remote I ' ll admit that . J . Daugherty : I think nobody has any better control over that than you people . More discussion was held on this by R . Cotanch , Z . Kane and others . R . Cotanch : How about the house and barn , and things like that , on the front of the land now? J . Daugherty : They are all on Parcel B . - -right there . Z . Kane : Are they good buildings ? R . Cotanch : That ' s the one that was burned two or three times . H . Dow : George , - -Mr . Daugherty brought with him tonight his applica- tion fee for the subdivision , which is $ 15 . 00 and also the $5 . 00 per lot unit making a total of $ 130 . Now I have a question I would like to bring up . Mr . Hamilton was talking on the telephone just lately about a written approval stat - ing that we would take over the highway - - the .roads - - as soon as they were completed according to specifications - - that is verified I think in the ordinance . I think it mentions that so I had this letter ready for Mr . Hamilton : " - - - - - - - G . Totman. : Mr . Daugherty I hope you understand that this is our first adventure in dealing with subdivisions and naturally we want to go by the book as much as possible and yet be fair to everybody that is willing to develop our Town which will be advantageous to us also . In fairness to the members of the Planning Board I feel we should take some time to study the map and , it does say in the subdivision regulations , these are supposed to be submitted 10 days prior to the meeting and then hold a public hearing 30 days after that . Now being that they are being submitted tonight technically our next regular meeting would discuss them but what I think would be the proper thing for us to do if this would meet with your approval . You have the other 5 copies you are going to pre - - 6 - Sent ? I think we can unofficially accept your plans and your fee and we will call another meeting next week as if it would be our next regular meeting and discuss them and let you know from that point what we decide . If we accept them at our next meeting will have to hold a public hearing . Does that sound fair to you and is it agreeable to the rest of the members of the Planning Board . Both Mr . Daugherty and the Planning Board members agreed to this arrangement . Z . Kane : How long do we have to have before the public hearing ? R . Cotanch : We can give them 5 days . J . Daugherty : I ' ll have the finished copies of those lower sheets . G . Totman : Yes , we would have to have those before we go any farther . When can you have them for us . J . Daugherty : Let me put it this way , - -when do you have to have them ? G . Totman : A week from today . J . Daugherty : I will see that you have them a week from today . R . Gleason : Then when would you contemplate having a public hearing ? G . Totman : We will decide it at our next meeting . R . Gleason : You would have to have two weeks before you could have it because of having to publish it in the Journal and Courier . R . Cotanch : The 26th would be the earliest you could hold the public hearing . G . Totman : We could have it the last week of April . Z . Kane : That gives you lots of time for the 28th of June . D . Payne : This just has to have approval before the 28th of June ? G . Totman : Mr . Daugherty can check that out and let us know . That ' s his attorney ' s problem . The only way we know is that we heard it in a speech in New York City . More discussion was held on this by G . rbtman , Z . Kane , R . Gleason and others . G . Totman : The way I read this thing is what you are doing tonight technically should have been given to us 10 days ago for our meeting tonight and then if it looks favorable 30 days from tonight if that had happened we would have had a public hearing but by doing it this way we are still taking care of it ahead of the time you need . More discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , Z . Kane , J . Daugherty and others . - 7 - G . Totman : Don ' t forget everybody be here next Wednesday night April 12th at 8 P . M . J . Daugherty : Would it be possible for me to get a copy of those road specifications ? (Mr . Totman gave him a copy of them and Mr . Daugherty ( then left the meeting . ) (At 5 to 9 P . M. Mr . Joe Wargo , Zoning Board of (Appeals Chairman turned up ) . G . Totman : Joe came down to listen to the proposal for the subdivision , - - you ' re a little too late though Joe because the man just left . It might be beneficial to you , Joe , - - we ' re going to hold our next meeting next Wednesday night to Ep over these subdivision plans and set a public hearing date on them if we approve them and will be setting up a public hearing date - - will probably be the last week in April Of we set it up and I think it is encouraging to see your interest in it and how these things come about because in my estimation really the only way you can carry out your duties and know the whys and wherefores of why these things are happening is to sit in on meetings like this . This is our annual meeting and we are supposed to hold our election of officers tonight too so how do you want to conduct your election ? We will let Mr . Dow be our temporary chairman . Some discussion was held on how to hold the election . H . Dow : There are two ways suggested - - ( 1 ) possible motion that the present staff remain intact for another year or ( 2 ) possible motion that the officers be elected by written ballot . F . Scheffler : I move we keep the present staff . H . Dow : You have heard the motion , is there a second ? R . Gleason : I second the motion . H . Dow : All those in favor of the motion as stated to keep the present staff in office signify your approval by saying Aye . Those opposed Nay . ' The motion is carried . G . Totman : 0 . K. J . Wargo : You are going to discuss this subdivision next Wednesday night? G . Totman : Yes . - 8 - G . Totman : At our last meeting I was asked if I would contact someone that was knowledgeable on these agricultural districts and set up an information meeting for the benefit of the farmers . I have tentatively set that meeting up for April 19th . Mr . Glenn Kline from the County Cooperative Extension is going to take care of conducting the meeting . I asked him to relate to the farmers that will be here that night the pros and cons , advantages and disadvantages and the actual foundation of this . What does a farmer have to do to get into one of these agricultural districts . Now Op if that is agreeable to everybody will leave it as such . In order to make this meeting successful , I think we should make every effort possible to have all the farmers in our Town contacted so if they are interested they can come . So I would like to suggest that each one of us make sure that the farmers in our area are notified . Has anybody a better suggestion as to how we can get these farmers notified of the meeting? R . Gleason : I think we should call but should go farther and be specific about who we should call so we don ' t miss anybody . The ASCS has a list of the farmers . Pretty sure you can get the list and divide it up between us . G . Totman ; This is two weeks from tonight . Z . Kane : If someone can get the list by next week we can divide it up then . G . Totman : The latter part of next week I ' ll write a release for the newspapers - - will put it in the Cortland Standard too . More discussion was held on this by F . Scheffler , G . Tot - man and others . G . Totman : Is there anything else you would like to bring up tonight ? Shall we discuss this subdivision or leave it for next week ' s meeting . Would some of you like to take one of the copies he left us home with you to study it ? I suggest that everybody take a good look at that land and become familiar with it so we ' ll know what we ' re talking about . There are a couple of things I think you should be thinking about - - water courses and on page 28 it talks about land subject to flooding . F . Scheffler : I ' m telling you that J section - - the whole thing is under - water , - - it ' s all swamp . R . Gleason : I was talking to the County Agent this afternoon and he said "boy , that ' s a wet place " . More discussion was held on the proposed subdivision and land by all . R . Gleason : I ' m wondering if the Health Dept , took tests of every one of those lots ? - 9 - r Z . Kane : They didn ' t . He said so himself . G . Totman : You have to use some objectivity when you are doing this . If you are going to disapprove something you have to have a reason behind it . If it ' s just an area of land and the water isn ' t going to be detrimental to someone around there then it might not be wrong for us to approve it but what we are concerned about is what is it going to do to the area and outlying land around it . R . Gleason : Now on those roads - - should have somebody that knows something see 0*0 about the water . You could have a lot of water come down those road ditches into the present road ditches . More discussion was held on this by R . Cotanch , F . Scheffler , R . Gleason , D . Payne and others . Mr . Totman said he would call the Board of Health re . the various lots of the proposed subdivision . G . Totman : I will also contact Ben Bucko and try to have him do some work on this utilities ' bit and I ' ll phone the Board of Health to see what they know about it . What we have to look into is not the initial subdivision but approve the 10 - acre lots . The power company isn ' t going to go up there and put power in right now so we have to go back and see that he understands that these other roads should have to come under this new ruling . D . Payne : Yes , providing that it isn ' t the approval of the Planning Board . G . Totman : We ' re approving for him to sell these lots in 10 - acre lots . At that point it ceases to be a subdivision and he is not required to put that underground . This man has 230 acres and is going to subdivide them to sell them off in 23 in - dividual parcels of land . Once he sells those 23 parcels of land it is through being a subdivision . The owner of the 10 - acre lot -Y - - WPav h4l '7b APP10q AQ ?` Rmir74va w4o%7*m �evYtQ A -C ? I soovr` e613 o444OU & 6+ aQ + More discussion was held on this by R . Gleason , F . Scheffler , G . Totman and others . G . Totman : Unless there are any other questions , let ' s adjourn . D . Payne : I move the meeting be adjourned . orf i (9 phnle Z . Kane : I second the motion . - (Motion carried . ) Re ectfully submitted , Jo ephi a Bell - 10 -