HomeMy WebLinkAbout2001-04-19 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD
Minutes/ Transcript of Regular Meeting - Thurs. , 19 April 2001 - 7: 30 PM
Members, Groton Planning Board (*Absent) Others Present
Monica Carey, Chair Joan Fitch, Recording Secretary
*George Van Slyke Mark Gunn, CEO
Van Travis
Barbara Clark
Tom Guihan
Mark Baxendell
Brad Albro
Applicants & Public Present
Michael Jones, Applicant; Robert Walpole
The meeting was called to order at 7:30 p .m. by Chairperson Monica Carey.
Michael H. Jones, Applicant, RO - 384 Smith Road - TM #25 - 1 -9 - Site Plan Review / Special
Permit for Proposed Welding Shop
M. Carey: As long as we've got people here, we may as well start with Mike and he can explain
what he wants to do and then we'll go back and approve the Minutes.
M. Jones : Well, what I want to do is—I'm right up the hill on 222 at Doug Brown's—welding
shop and I want to move it or add on to my existing garage. There's my house. Ten, twelve, fourteen
feet and put it in there. There's a lot next door that I filled in last year, and I want to do in the summer
or in the fall build a welding shop. But I can't be up there on the hill working there and doing all the
portable stuff plus doing what I got to do in my house . So if I 'm up there and I 've got three, four hours
of doing nothing, that means I could be three, four hours walk across the lot and be working.
M. Baxendell: Makes sense.
V. Travis: Are the neighbors aware of your plans to do this?
M. Jones: I talked with Mark Gunn and asked him if I needed to do that, and he said no if there
was an add in the paper, no. Really, the only neighbor I 've got is the new neighbor. I don't know who
they are. They're not there very often, so I never see them.
T. Guihan: Is that Jones?
V. Travis: No, it's the lot Vanberkom, right? Is that their name?
M. Jones: No. Scott Metcalf was there last.
M. Baxendell: Mark, do you know if Linda sold that place?
M. Gunn: I think it's sold. I think it might be a family member that's there . I recognized the car.
V. Travis: Well, it's an approved use for the area, am I not correct?
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M. Carey: Well, I was trying to decide what we would classify it as. I was looking through - I
mean most anything's allowed in that area because it is a rural area, but as to what we classify it
under the Land Use Activities, you mostly work on agriculture equipment, right?
M. Jones : Well, most of that is done onsite.
M. Carey: Onsite?
M. Jones: Yes. Most of what I do is onsite. But come bad weather and stuff like that, then I go
back to the shop and build things that I sell to farmers and things like that. You're not going to go out
in the middle of January and do a lot of outside work.
M. Carey: No, I know.
M. Jones: You're not going to do it. So I could go back to the shop.
M. Carey: What do you think, Van?
V. Travis: Well, I mean we've approved automobile repair shops which is similar types of work in
terms of equipment and the sorts of things they do. Industrial and manufacturing establishments
which produce minimal noise, odor, and glare. Industrial equipment services. I mean, there's any
number of things that you can call it. It's basically a repair business. And I mean other than a grinder
to grind the same a little bit, it's not a noise-producing business.
M. Jones: That's about the biggest noise is a grinder.
V. Travis: A grinder.
M . Baxendell: You get more noise from a tractor loading a silo.
V. Travis: I mean I was just up there and looked around and I wasn't asking my question
because I thought you ought to go up and down the road necessarily. But I was just wondering if you
had had any feedback from anyone. Other than the people we call Vanberkom, there's really no one
close by. The matter of the construction itself does not fall within our jurisdiction. That you take up
with Mark for building permits and that sort of thing. He'll help you with that. But the question
before us is whether a welding shop meets the Code at this particular site and I believe the answer is
yes.
M. Carey: Yes. I see no problem with it.
V. Travis: I don't either.
B. Clark: No problem.
M. Carey: Would you like to read -
V. Travis: Sure.
Board Member Van Travis then read aloud Part II of the Short Environmental
Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part H.
Therefore , it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by
Member Barbara Clark, seconded by Member Tom Guihan, with all members
present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted,
will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact , resulting in a
negative declaration.
This becomes Action # 8 of 2001
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M. Carey: The one thing I didn't ask you don't get too many customers coming up to your
shop do you?
M. Jones: Farmers.
M. Carey: Just farmers dropping their stuff of P
M. Jones : Maybe a lawnmower deck. That type of thing. Most of it is, I 'd say, --
M. Carey: You're on the road most of the time?
M. Jones: I'm on the road.
M. Baxendell: It's not a retail shop.
M. Carey: No. I know what he does. He's been at the barn.
M. Jones : That's right.
M. Carey: Any more questions from the Board? Does anybody feel we need to hold a Public
Hearing?
V. Travis: I don't feel that way.
B. Clark: No, I don't either.
M. Carey: Right, but it's in the rules. We need to discuss it. Would anybody like to make a
motion to approve or disapprove the application?
V. Travis: I move that we approve the application and waive the public hearing for the
establishment of a welding shop at the proposed site .
B. Clark: I second that.
M. Carey: All in favor? (All Board members present indicated in the affirmative. ) Approved.
You're all set.
This becomes Action # 9 of 2001
M. Jones : So this gives me a Special Permit?
M. Carey: Yes.
M. Jones: I deal with you, Mark, to get -
M. Carey: The building permit. Right. You can operate up there.
V. Travis: And if you then put up a sign, you need to deal with Mark for that. There is a permit
for that.
M. Jones: Okay. When can I get ahold of you?
M. Gunn: If you don't get me here, stop at the house. You know where I live . Just stop at the
house if you have a problem getting ahold of me. I'm down here all the time, afternoons, weekends,
and evenings. Call, and if I don't happen to be here, I'll return your call and get ahold of you.
M. Jones: Thanks a lot.
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M. Carey: You've paid all your fees.
M. Jones: I've paid to get this far.
M. Carey: You'll get your permit. Thank you.
Robert Walpole re Bishop Farms on Chipman's Corners Road - TM # 16- 1 -7. 2 - Not on Agenda
M. Carey: Okay, I've a note here that Bob's going to stop in and talk to us, so as long as Bob's
here, well let him speak.
R. Walpole: Did everyone get a copy?
M. Carey: No, I haven't handed them out yet.
V. Travis: Is there one page per person?
M. Carey: What's the tax number for the record?
R. Walpole: Well, the Tax Map No. is Part of 16- 1 -7 . 2 .
J. Fitch: Who is the reputed owner?
R. Walpole : Bishop Farms.
J. Fitch: And the location?
R. Walpole: Chipman's Corners Road, Town of Groton. Bishops own 6 . 239 acres. There's 162 .24
feet of road frontage. There's a total acreage there of 6 .239. The line that comes across here, the tree
line in the woods. There's where it says area equal plus six, there's been a gravel pit there for
years. . . and what they would like to do, or are thinking of doing, is in the flag lot there's a minimum of
20 feet and a maximum of 50 on the pole, they would like to retain the woods and the gravel pit for
their use. They are obviously gearing down their farming operations and they still want to keep some
of the tillable land. I don't know if we come in here for a Site Plan, or we have to go to the variance. I
kind of want the Planning Board's input on this.
M. Carey: How many feet did you say were on the roadside for that pole.
V. Travis: 62 . 24,
R. Walpole: For the whole thing. The only land left on that side of the road is the 6 . 239 acres
and 162 . 24 feet.
M. Carey: So they want to take out this flag and -
R. Walpole: Leave the flag and the stuff that's highlighted and sell this 150 feet of road frontage
which is about two and one-half acres for building lots. And if it was allowed, they would give these
people an option to buy the balance of this property probably within ten years. We would also,
because it does not meet the flag lot theory of the 20 feet to 50 for the restriction that nothing could be
built in that area to protect it from this standpoint.
V. Travis: Okay, you've lost me.
M. Carey: I know. I 'm sort of lost too.
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V. Travis: No, I think you can do it, but just in the highlighted area that's the proposed new
pole.
R. Walpole : That's correct.
V. Travis: And it will be less than 20 feet?
R. Walpole: Yes, he wants a 12-foot pole.
M. Carey: We'd have to turn that down.
R. Walpole: The other option, then, is to - and I 'm assuming that we can always just retain a 10
or 12-foot right-of-way and just sell the front portion of it. It makes it cleaner to either get a variance
or site plan. Just reserve 10 , 12 feet you know on the property.
M. Carey: It still is not allowed in our laws. It basically states that you have to have a 20-foot
driveway for emergency vehicles to get through.
R. Walpole: That was the reason for the deed restriction.
M. Baxendell: So you can't build down in here?
M. Carey: Right. You've almost got landlocked land by doing something like that.
B. Clark: That land back there, that's a gravel pit?
R. Walpole : That's a small gravel pit. . .
M. Carey: But if they're going to run a truck back there and that truck caught on fire, how you
going to - I mean you're narrowing that down so that an emergency vehicle can't get back there to, you
know, put the truck or whatever catches on fire out. So we are defeating our purpose by doing
something like this.
R. Walpole : Well, there's a road there right now and the road's only eight feet wide.
M. Carey: But they still have 150 or 162 feet of road frontage.
V. Travis: Yes, they really had a 162-foot pole.
M. Carey: Right.
R. Walpole: It's a legal lot.
M. Carey: Right, with 162 it's legal.
R. Walpole: It's a legal lot with 150 .
V. Travis: Yes.
R. Walpole: I mean they can still sell the 162 and just reserve a right-of-way across it.
M. Carey: I guess they probably could as long as they work a deal out with the people that buy
the property.
R. Walpole: Well, then I guess that's—it makes it cleaner when the ownership retains the right-of-
way or easement.
M. Carey: But the problem is, what would happen to this back lot?
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R. Walpole: Well, the option would go with these people.
M. Carey: But still, if they don't buy it then we've got a piece that's 12 feet and then we've got
this lot behind it.
M . Baxendell: He's talking about now you've got a right-of-way to that piece of property which are
existing in the Town that way now.
M. Carey: But those were existing before our ordinance.
V. Travis: Yes, I have one where I live. There's a landlocked piece. But I'm certain it goes back
many years and there's a right-of-way across my property to get to it, but it is definitely a landlocked
piece.
M. Carey: Right. And that's not what our Board is here to do to landlock land.
R. Walpole : Well, you're not landlocking it with the right-of-way. This was cleaning the act up,
making it legal, trying to make it legal.
Be Clark: Would the right-of-way be restricted or unrestricted?
R. Walpole : It would be restricted to the owner -
M. Baxendell: Do they own this next parcel here, too?
R. Walpole: They did own it, but it's all been sold off.
M. Baxendell: That's already been sold off.
R. Walpole: Everything's been sold off on that side of the road.
M. Baxendell: That's too bad because they could have moved that over.
M. Carey: Right,
R. Walpole: When we did this, we were doing a minor subdivision in 1995 . Otherwise they would
do a major subdivision. Everything's been sold off to comply with a minor subdivision.
V. Travis: Well, the decision could be appealed to the ZBA, can it not?
M. Carey: Yes, I mean I don't feel good in the respect that if those people on that front lot don't
buy the property out back, then we've got a piece of landlocked land and that is not the intent of this
Board to landlock land. Even with the right-of-way.
V. Travis: Well, I don't think it's within our jurisdiction to grant variances; that's the ZBA's.
And so to the extent that we have jurisdiction, this proposal does not meet the requirements of the law
and, therefore, we cannot approve it.
M. Carey: Right. How does the rest of the Board feel?
M. Baxendell: Pretty much.
Be Clark: That's right.
V. Travis: We understand it is a problem.
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R. Walpole: Not really because he can still sell the property and just reserve a right-of-way
through it. It would be easier to have a recommendation from the Planning Board and then go to the
ZBA. It's always better to own the piece of property and then put restrictions in it so it's protected so
he can't build in there. That was one of the reasons, because he obviously didn't want to have two
different variances from the standpoint of lacking 8 feet.
M. Gunn: What happens if the guy that owns the property wants to go and put the right-of-
way to, what happens if he dies?
R. Walpole: The right-of-way, easements, and stuff go with the property. They stay with the
property. They stay with it forever.
M. Gunn: Well, I'm going by the pole. I think I agree, for what it's worth the way you're going
because I don't even think legally he has a right to sell that lot without it being a legal lot, even with
the intent of their becoming a right-of-way issue because the law clearly states that it has to have ,
either a legal pole or the right-of-way.
R. Walpole: He has a right to sell the front piece of the property -
M. Gunn: The front.
R. Walpole : That's two acres with 160 feet of road frontage.
M. Gunn: But by doing that it creates the back into a non-conforming illegal lot.
R. Walpole : But he's still the owner of it.
M. Gunn: Of both pieces?
R. Walpole : No, of the rear piece with a right-of-way to it.
M. Gunn: But therefore, by selling the front one he has created an illegal lot.
M. Carey: I agree.
M. Gunn: So I agree with them. It can't be done. I don't even think you can do it legally with a
right-of-way because it landlocks it with that right-of-way. Years ago they used to do that, but -
R. Walpole: Well, we'll pass it by the Town Attorney then.
B. Clark: Yes.
V. Travis: Yes, absolutely.
R. Walpole: I mean I think the guy has the right to sell the property.
M. Carey: Oh, we're not arguing that fact. It's just that you know we don't want to create any
landlocked area, and that's basically what we're doing. I mean if these people wanted to buy the back
property we could go along with this.
R. Walpole: Well, I understand that and we wouldn't even be here.
M. Carey: Right. But with them - a 12 -foot right-of-way is not the regulations in our books.
V. Travis: Why doesn't he sell them the whole lot and lease back the gravel pit from them, and
then they have a legal lot and something that can be sold. The thing that he's going to end up with is
an illegal lot that he can't sell in the future.
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M. Carey: Right,
V. Travis: That's where the bind is to your client.
M. Carey: If that client won't buy that property at some point in time and he decides he doesn't
want that lot back there, then we've got an illegal lot.
R. Walpole: Not necessarily. I mean that was one of the reasons for the restrictions being put in
with the option.
M. Carey: But still, you're only going to have a 12-foot right-of-way, and that's not legal in the
Town of Groton.
V. Travis: Well, an easement would.
M. Carey: Okay.
R. Walpole : An easement is legal in the Town of Groton. Let's clarify our terms here .
M. Carey: Okay. But the flag needs to be 20 -
R. Walpole : Don't say an easement's not legal in the Town of Groton.
B. Albro: Could you sell the lot out back to the new owner?
R. Walpole : Well they can't sell the lot out back because there would be an option tied to it, see?
B. Albro: So that has to stay in the Bishop family?
R. Walpole: Either that, or to the people or if they do, then they've got to sell the rest to the next
door neighbor, to Smith or whoever borders it down in there, and some terminology has got to be in
there so that easement's out of there. There's got to be an agreement. See, he wanted to retain it as
long as he was going to be able to get in there and use - basically for their own for personal use.
V. Travis: Well, I think the Bishops ought to retain an attorney to make certain that they
aren't—
R. Walpole : They have an attorney. They have a good attorney.
V. Travis: Okay. Well, he needs to do some homework for them on this one, I think.
R. Walpole: We just asked to come in to get the Planning Board's position, and we got the
position that they have no interest and that's fine . We don't need to file a formal application.
M. Carey: Okay.
R. Walpole : Thank you.
M. Carey: Thanks. Onward here.
Approval of Minutes - 15 March 2001 Regular Meeting
M. Baxendell: Back to the Minutes. Back to Item 1 .
M. Carey: Anybody want to approve or make amendments?
M. Baxendell: Ill make a motion to approve these Minutes.
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V. Travis: I'll second it
M. Carey: Joan's a good minute-taker.
M. Baxendell: Joan, you're excellent. Our hat's off to you.
M. Carey: All in favor? (All Board members present indicated in the affirmative. ) Approved.
This becomes Action # 10 of 2001
Comprehensive Plan
M. Carey: I got an email from Glenn. I was hoping he'd be here.
B. Clark: Is this regarding the Comprehensive Plan?
M. Carey: And he wants us to start reviewing the Comprehensive Plan again because we've got
new Board members. So I guess our project now — I was hoping he'd be here and he could explain a
little more of what he's looking for from our Board.
M. Baxendell: Have him come to the next Board meeting and explain exactly what he wants done
so we don't sit here spinning our wheels.
V. Travis: That's right.
B. Clark: I thought we tabled that until ' the census figures were in and we had something to
work with.
M. Carey: I've got it here. I emailed this to Joan and she emailed me back. Where did I put it?
It's here in my book someplace. But anyway, we did table it simply because we were waiting for the
census figures.
V. Travis: And the other thing that we recommended was that instead of each entity, I'll call it,
board, doing this separately, that there be a committee formed with representatives from each so that
the job was done once and the consensus was built.
M. Baxendell: We reiterate that in our Minutes.
M. Carey: I can't find my email that Joan sent me. We did discuss it and, like you said, we
wanted to know more on the census.
J. Fitch: I went back and looked at the Minutes, and they start in August. The August
Minutes, and September, October, and November you said you weren't going to do anything more until
you got the census figures. You couldn't do anything without the census figures. And the new
members were instructed to review the whole Comprehensive Plan.
M. Carey: Right. And I think we've discussed it a little bit at that meeting.
J. Fitch: And you have reviewed up through Chapter 6 .
V. Travis: Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with the new members reading the
Comprehensive Plan, and in some ways it is interesting and has some stuff in there that you'll find
interesting. But I think there's been two census of agriculture since it was written, and one new
population census. And I suspect it's going to be another year, year and a half, before we get anything
out of the Year 2000 Census.
Page 9 of 21
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J. Fitch: It was in tonight's Cortland Standard that the towns and villages in Cortland County
have the new census, giving all the population minuses and pluses.
M. Carey: Maybe they've got them here.
V. Travis: I think they've got some of the preliminary stuff. They're beginning to haggle on some
of that, but in terms of -
M. Carey: Well, Ill email Glenn that we'd like to have him come to next month's meeting and
talk to us more about this and what he's looking for from our Board.
T. Guihan: I like the idea of forming a committee -
M. Carey: Well, that's what the idea was, forming a committee. We looked it over, I thought,
pretty good before.
V. Travis: Well, we did.
M. Carey: A lot has not changed, and what there is there—I mean the goals are still basically
the same for the Town of Groton as what they were when we wrote this.
V. Travis: The section on agriculture, I think, was written by Monica Roth who I'm almost
positive would be more than willing to help us out again in terms of census figures on agriculture in
the Town of Groton. And they should be updated.
M. Carey: Changed quite a bit.
V. Travis: Yes.
Agricultural Data Statement
M. Carey: Okay. Then the next thing I have is this Ag Data Statement that April sent with our
packet. Did everybody kind of look that over? It looks like the County is more or less recommending
that all the Site Plan Reviews, all the applications that go out, need an Ag Data Statement attached.
And so if our Board approves of the way it is, I'll let Glenn know. I thought we had discussed this
earlier.
V. Travis: You are absolutely right.
M. Carey: And I had a phone conversation with April one day at work and I said I'm sure if you
go back you'll see where we said that this Ag Data Statement should be attached to all applications.
V. Travis: That's right, we did. And that the information needed on it is available on the
application for Site Plan Review and, therefore, it should just be handled administratively.
M. Carey: Right. Well, just attach it and they have to sign the form basically.
V. Travis: Right,
M. Carey: Because everything's filled out on the application.
V. Travis: Does the applicant have to sign it? No . It just ends up being signed by you.
M. Carey: Right,
M. Baxendell: It's a double check, that's all it is. More paperwork. More dead trees.
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"The Short Course" Booklet
M. Carey: Okay, does everybody have in their pile "The Short Course"? Now I read this, honest.
I read this whole book and I thought it was quite interesting. I think people should look it over,
especially like tonight for the Site Plan Review. It tells you basically all the steps to go through. It's a
very simple, very easy book to read, and I asked April to order everybody one and I really think that for
the size of it, everybody can get through it pretty easily. Even I picked up some interesting facts out of
it.
V. Travis: If we swear before a Notary that we did this, can that serve as meeting our in- service
education requirements?
Code Enforcement Officer Mark Gunn re Cobb Street Prouerty Owner
M. Carey: Mark, do you have anything that you'd like to bring before the Board?
M. Gunn: Yes. I got a call from a gentleman who owns some property on Cobb Street. And the
way he said it to me is how many single-wides can I put in there and how cheap can I get away with
it?
M. Carey: Is he talking about a mobile home park?
M. Gunn: No, but he wants to bust it up so he's got single lots. And I immediately start getting
the jitters—like, oh man, I can see just people screaming. He would have the legal lots, but I just see it
being a problem because he just wants to be a landlord.
M. Carey: Right. Now where is this at?
M. Gunn: On Cobb Street, right across from Twigg's old house .
M. Carey: Oh, that big open field?
M. Gunn: Big open field and he bought enough of it that it wraps all the way around and goes
back to West Groton Road.
M. Carey: Right,
M. Gunn: It's 30-some acres. He can fit a lot of things in there if he decided he wanted to put a
road in and this guy has the ability to put in a road.
M. Carey: I was just going to suggest well have him put in a road and that would discourage
him. Darn.
M. Gunn: He has the ability. I spoke with, I don't even remember who I spoke with because this
happened almost a month ago and I was like, man, if I wait a month to talk to the Planning Board — I
was under the understanding I had to bring it before the Board. But single-wides aren't huge things
that go in the Town right now. A lot of people are really into the double-wides and the modulars. My
idea was maybe a moratorium on single-wides and raise the standards a little bit on the single-wides
so that - Dryden has peaked roof, horizontal siding — things like that to at least make them look a
little bit better. That's that in a nutshell. I started getting chills when I heard that.
B. Clark: Well, when you think of single-wides, you think of that one that went in up on Lick
Street right off of 222 . It's just an eyesore.
M. Gunn: And way back when we discussed the Comprehensive Plan a long time ago, that was
the first thing I put on paper is trying to upgrade the standards on the single-wides. I'm too new to
know what it takes to do a moratorium.
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M. Carey: I think the Town Board has to do the moratorium.
M. Gunn: I heard it has to be a suggestion or recommendation from here.
M. Baxendell: And when it goes to the Town Board, and as long as you have enough support and
backing here, the Town Board's going to entertain it and get all the gripes and complaints. Something
like that.
M. Carey: Now has the guy formally approached anybody on this?
M . Gunn: Nothing. It was just a phone conversation. He bought the property a year or so ago.
M. Baxendell: So there's no permits, no paperwork, nothing that says I'm going to start on such and
such a thing?
M. Gunn: Absolutely nothing.
M. Baxendell: So we have an opportunity to -
M. Carey: How many permits have you got right now from people wanting to put -
M. Gunn: No single-wides. Absolutely nothing.
M. Carey : Nothing.
M. Baxendell: Although that eyesore does have a peaked roof - I 've got some suggestions around
what you might want, but it doesn't have the horizontal siding. It's still got the old- stye trailer -
M. Carey: Yes, I know where the property is. I know how it runs.
M. Gunn: It's right here, this being Cobb Street, looking west.
M. Carey: And this gentleman proposed that he'd put a street through there?
M. Gunn: He didn't propose that, but if it came up -
M. Carey: But that would be considered a mobile home park, I'm pretty sure if it goes into a
street.
M. Gunn: It wouldn't if each one had a legal lot.
M. Baxendell: And then what are they going to do for septic?
M. Gunn: As long as it's a legal lot, each one can have its own septic .
M. Baxendell: What size is a legal lot?
M. Gunn: A minimum one acre.
V. Travis: With 150 feet of road frontage.
M. Gunn: Yes.
V. Travis: But if he's retaining the ownership - you said he wanted to be a landlord - does it
then qualify as a legal lot under that?
M. Gunn: Yes. If he put the road in—
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M. Basendell: And just went through and parceled it off and he owned each individual parcel, then
he could rent that parcel with a septic and well.
M. Carey: It would be a mobile home park simply because of the fact that you're going to have
to build a road, you're going to have to put electric down there. We could require sidewalks, curbing. I
mean—
V. Travis: But doesn't this ordinance here apply?
M. Carey: Well that's what I 'm thinking, that the mobile home park ordinance would come into
effect. What does it say in -
M. Gunn: See, I don't thing it would be considered a park because of the legal lot size, the legal
building lot size . Because at any point in time, anybody could pull that house off of there and build a
house.
M. Carey: I mean the Mobile Home Ordinance does not—
V. Travis: See lot size, page 9 .
M. Baxendell: But he's retaining the ownership of the property.
M . Gunn: I don't think in reading through there - there's a minimum lot size in a trailer park,
but it's not one acre.
V. Travis: It's seven homes for each gross acre of land included in the park. Generally, mobile
home lots shall be a minimum of 5,000 SF in area and shall have a minimum width of 50 feet. In
special cases, where unusual park design provides for wider streets or a greater amount of usable
recreation or public open space than required by this local law, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The
Planning Board may approve a reduction in lot size. In no case, however, shall the gross density of
seven mobile home lots per acre be exceeded, nor shall the lot be reduced below 4500 SF, nor the lot
width be reduced below 45 . Well, 4500 SF is 150 foot wide and 300 feet deep?
M. Gunn: No .
V. Travis: 30?
M. Baxendell: But he's talking an acre- 150 foot of road frontage by what? Roughly 250 lot size by
acre. You're right. It takes us out of the mobile home park.
M. Gunn: It throws it right into legal building lots.
M. Carey: It would be a subdivision.
M. Baxendell: Exactly.
M. Gunn: This could be just a complete fear of mine, but he might just want to do six lots off
West Groton Road. But there again, six mobile home lots up West Groton Road, the cheapest you can
make them so you can insure yourself rent.
V. Travis: Well, he needs to subdivide the property, right? So he's going to end up with what, a
major subdivision that he's got to apply for.
M. Carey: Yes.
V. Travis: But he's going to retain the ownership of it. He's going to have to register those
separately for tax purposes.
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(T) Groton Planning Board Regular Meeting Transcript 19 April 2001
M. Gunn: Exactly.
M. Baxendell: And he's going to have to build the road, put it in, make it to State standards. He's
going to have to put in the well and septic and water supply on each one. Just like an individual lot.
M. Carey: And also, we could request that a certain section of that land be set aside, too , if he
wants to develop the whole piece of property; we could put this under a PUD and tell him that one
section would need to be a park-like area, or something to that respect also.
M. Gunn: But the potential is for it to happen. I mean, he was -
M. Carey: But I can't imagine that that many mobile home lots will get filled up up there. I
mean there's not that many people moving into Groton. And that's a tight-knit area up there too .
There's a lot of homes right along - and there would be a lot of screaming in the neighborhood.
T. Guihan: A lot of screaming? I'd hear it at my house.
V. Travis: What's the economics of the thing? Not that I'm looking out for his pocketbook, but
in terms of the probability of it happening, how much money is there in it for him?
M. Baxendell: But you have to look at it. Does he need a tax write-off. Does he need a loss? Or is
he looking here to make a profit?
M. Carey: Does this person live in the Town of Groton?
M . Gunn: Yes.
M. Carey: I think I have a feeling.
V. Travis: Who it is, you mean?
M. Carey: Yes,
M. Baxendell: How would everyone feel about trying to do an upgrade to the Town's mobile homes,
the single-wides, with a few restrictions on them to upgrade the image, and try to present something to
the Town Board in such a fashion that it isn't going to hinder people putting them in, but they will
put a something a little bit nicer in that we're not going to hear the neighbors screaming about? Okay?
B. Clark: Well, increase the value for tax purposes.
M. Baxendell: It's going to increase the tax value. It's going to increase people moving back into
Groton. I know other towns have things like this.
M. Carey: See, this was where the Town was going to ask us to start looking at everything in
the Zoning Laws and amending or re-writing where it's needed. And I'm sure that this was part of the
thing that we would have had to work on.
M. Baxendell: What's available from other townships?
M. Gunn: As far as requirements -
M. Baxendell: Their requirements - some townships let anything in; others don't want it.
M. Gunn: The most strict one is Dryden.
M. Baxendell: All right, call up Dryden and find out what they've got.
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M. Gunn: That's Henry Slater. It's basically peaked roof; they don't even require shingling
which I think is huge in light of the rustic -
M. Baxendell: Well, I don't know if you can require shingling. We put metal roofs on things all the
time.
M. Carey: Yes, there's a lot of roofs on homes.
M. Baxendell: But we should do something. It will last longer. And I don't know if that's the
direction people want to go.
B. Albro: Could there be like a minimum dollar value for the mobile home?
M. Carey: 840 square feet, I believe.
M. Gunn: It's got to be a minimum of 14 by 70 .
B. Clark: What about the age restrictions?
M. Gunn: NYS Code is 76 or newer. It's got to have a HUD stamp. That's why we can get a
home like that in here and be totally legal.
B. Albro: Well it does say that he'd have to supply sidewalks and everything for each one.
M. Gunn: Well, that's if it fell under the realm of a park.
M. Carey: Well, no, we could require all that in a subdivision.
M. Gunn: Right. But thinking on a smaller scale, though, and he can have just six go along
West Groton Road—
M. Carey: But still, we could require that as a subdivision because that's going to be a major
subdivision. Over 5 lots is a major subdivision.
M. Gunn: Yes.
M. Carey: So we could make any sort of requirements. If you look at it, I believe we can almost
make any sort of requirements in anything over a major subdivision which that will be considered, a
major subdivision.
M. Gunn: Sidewalks are a far cry if the house doesn't look like anything. I may never see an
application on my desk.
M. Baxendell: And you know it won't be the last time you get a phone call like this.
M. Gunn: Oh, my phone still rings from this one up here.
M. Carey: I know. I hear about it every time I walk into a grocery store.
Fouts Property / Leshkavich, Tenant - Wood Road
M. Gunn: Oh, there was one other thing. Back probably within the last year we had a Russian
family put in an application for an automobile repair shop on Wood Road. I since have gotten a call
from the property owner asking me if I can do something about the mess. I went by there today and I
told her that my recourse is with the property owner . But she asked me please, we don't want any
problems between our tenants and us. Can we do something on your end? And I went up there. They
don't have their legal State license yet. For some reason they never got it or it's still in the mail; I don't
know what the deal is. But they had called me when it came time for their Life Safety Inspection and
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(T) Groton Planning Board Regular Meeting Transcript 19 April 2001
said we aren't even in business yet. Well, for not being a business, there's about 15 or 20 cars up there
which is already a violation of the limits that the Town put on their permit.
M. Carey: Write them a letter.
M. Gunn: I just put the address on my paper out there for the letter to go out.
M. Baxendell: Pursue it. They're the landowner and they're paying the taxes.
M. Carey: Well, if they haven't got their permit and they're not following the rules of their
permit. I mean, we sat here and George made sure they understood that night exactly what, because
the husband couldn't speak English, but she could, and she relayed things back to them.
V. Travis: And didn't Bob Fouts come with them?
M. Carey: Yes.
V. Travis: I wasn't at that meeting, but I recall -
B. Clark: Both Bob and Sharon were here .
M. Gunn: I actually have recourse with both parties. I can actually write both of them a letter.
The Fouts want the place cleaned up. I understand their problem.
M. Carey: Well, if you send a letter to them, then they can go back and say look, we're getting
harassed by the Town of Groton, too . And right there they've got everything they need to handle the
situation.
M. Gunn: But that's the only thing I have.
Mobile Home Ordinance
V. Travis: This Mobile Home Ordinance—are we the ones responsible for -
M. Carey: I don't think so . I think that's the Town Board. It was never updated when we did
the rest of it. For some reason, I think the Town Board is responsible for the Mobile Home Ordinance.
M. Gunn: I have one small park, Jeslin, that a few of those laws fall into play there, but very
little.
M. Carey: That's been there for years and years. Long before I was born, I think.
M. Gunn: He keeps it up nice and everything so there's very little I have to do.
B. Albro: I was wondering if there was some sort of limit on, like I asked earlier, the dollar value
fora mobile home. But it just has to beat least a '77 .
M. Gunn: The State states that, yes. It's a State law. If we put a dollar value on it, somebody
could pay $20, 000 for a piece of junk. The next guy can pay $20,000 and get a brand new one off the
lot; he walked into the right place at the right time. So you really couldn't go by the dollar value. Just
a simple few things like in- swinging doors to the interior of the house. That way at least it would have
screen doors on it to protect it so the place isn't rotting and falling apart and you drive by and you're
seeing into the interior of somebody's house.
V. Travis: The Planning Board has jurisdiction, working with the Code Enforcement Officer.
The application and all accompanying plans and specifications shall be filed in duplicate. The CEO
shall review the applications and proposed plans and specs and before acting thereon shall
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(T) Groton Planning Board Regular Meeting Transcript 19 April 2001
immediately forward a copy to the Planning Board for its review and recommendations. And then it
says if we fail to act within 30 days, then it's considered approval and the CEO shall -
M. Carey: Well, I guess we did have one a few years ago up on Route 90; somebody was talking
about putting one in now that I think about it. And it did sort of come before our Board, but then it
died pretty quick because of Fall Creek.
B. Clark: Yes, up on that side hill.
M. Carey: Well, it's food for thought for the next meeting. I guess everybody can come up with
some ideas as to what sort of restrictions, and then well have to present it to the Town Board and go
from that point.
B. Clark: Now, can these be restrictions for any mobile home, any single-wide?
M. Gunn: Yes.
M. Carey: It would have to be only those that come in, not those that are already here.
Somebody bought a piece of land and is going to put a home on it.
V. Travis: Double-wides come under what? A different category?
M. Gunn: Yes. They are all considered manufactured now, but even the government census
that I get every month considers them an actual new home, just like a stick-built single-family home.
However, single-wides do not fall under that. So probably the Census Bureau looks at square footage
or something.
V. Travis: But the double-wides end up on some other kind of a base such as a -
M. Baxendell: Not necessarily.
V. Travis: Drive them onto the pad with their wheels on and bolt them together and that does
it?
M. Baxendell: That's it.
M. Carey: But most people usually put a pad under them.
M. Baxendell: They just put a pad, put concrete pillars, cement blocks, and they're done.
M. Carey: That's all I got.
M. Gunn: I 'd say 95% of the ones that go in go on piers. There's a gravel foundation which is
rough. It deteriorates the home, but it's a legal foundation under the regulations of the State.
Re Robert Walvole / Bishop Farms Proverty - Chipman's Corners Road
M. Carey: Just a quick review back on that Bob Walpole thing. I really don't know what he's
thinking.
M. Baxendell: We did the right thing.
M. Carey: Well, yes, we couldn't do anything but what we did.
V. Travis: I think the ball is in their court.
M. Bazendell: You had the right idea. They purchase the entire parcel and if they want to lease the
bank back to them, so be it, they deal with it. Otherwise, we're going to end up with landlocked land
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and you can't have a 12-foot pole property, flagpole property, and if you do a 20-foot flagpole property,
then you've got an illegal lot up front. So they are trying to make two lots out of one. They should
have thought about this before they sold off the rest of the farm. He's trying to get two lots out of it.
He's trying to look out for his clients.
V. Travis: Well, the fact of the matter is -is that the property in back is just about worthless
under what they are proposing. It's an unsalable piece of thing, so they might better sell it and
convince these buyers that it has some value and if they can get a few more bucks out of it, or lease it
back if it's that valuable to them.
M. Baxendell: Sell it to them for a hundred bucks and lease it back - whatever it is - take that
number and lease it to them for ten years for the price they paid for it. What's the big deal?
M. Carey: I just wanted everybody to understand the fact that we don't want a landlocked
property. That's our main goal on this Board is to make sure that property will not become landlocked.
V. Travis: Oh well, if we created one we would be subject to legal action. I don't think it would
ever stand up if it was challenged.
M. Carey: I agree.
V. Travis: In fact, I once was involved in a case—it wasn't landlocked property, but where a
Planning Board ruled that a non-permitted use could occur on a particular piece of property. It
happened to be a commercial activity in a residential area, and they approved it and it got challenged
in court and it got thrown out. And this is in New York State . And the court just said the Planning
Board does not have the authority to change the existing regulations.
T. Guihan: I think you're right.
V. Travis: He knows we were right.
M. Carey: I know.
Re Harvey Baker
B. Clark: One other question. Any other information on Harvey Baker's proposal?
M. Gunn: Yes, I wrote up a report. How long ago was that that I talked to you guys?
V. Travis: Last month.
M. Gunn: Wow, it seems like six months ago.
V. Travis: Yes it does.
B. Clark: There's a letter here from the lawyer that's March 1 re Harvey Baker that was in with
the Minutes.
M. Gunn: I wrote a report. I was going to get you guys a copy and I'm way behind. I did write
this to Harvey, actually I believe it was written to Harvey's attorney, stating why they couldn't use
that property for that use. And short of a conversation I had with Mr. Morey, verbally he was told we
were going to get sued and that was over a month ago and we haven't heard a thing. We have not
stopped the sale of the property. He hasn't bought it, but if he wishes to sell that property he just
couldn't sell it for that use. Another gentlemen—* maybe it was in here and you were asking could he
do just this or just that—
B. Albro: Storage.
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(T) Groton Planning Board Regular Meeting Transcript 19 April 2001
M. Gunn: Yes. I was never - nobody ever approached me on anything like that.
Be Albro: I think that they may. I don't think their intent is to buy the building anymore,
though. Actually they are getting set up in the old Essex Steel building in Cortland.
M. Gunn: I heard that.
Be Albro : Because they've got to make a move within a month. But if they can utilize it for
storage it would help them out because most of their operation's still here. And I think eventually
what's going to happen is they will pull out of Groton, be it to Cortland, or they buy a property and
put a building up where they can unload it in this end, take it all the way through and end up with a
finished product out the other one . But they may talk to you about that.
Be Clark: But I think they probably are using it for storage now from the activities that I see.
M. Gunn: There's some activity there and I'm trying not to drive the man's business out. And
I've talked with Glenn about that, and I 've also talked with George Senter about that because the
building that they were denied the use of in the Village they are also using that for storage right now.
So we're trying our darndest to do everything we can for them, and it's just the buildings they want
don't fit the bill. But Vincent has this user separate now from Mr. Baker's, and I haven't heard
anything from Mr. Baker.
Be Clark: Well you saw the fire that happened and we were concerned with a fire in that
building across the road.
M. Gunn: Well, when that call went out the first thing in the morning, I was sick and had the
flu bad, and I heard that and I sat right up in bed and I'm picturing furniture ablaze down there and
I'm going oh, my god, my nightmare. And then I realized when they said the address it wasn't there.
Be Albro: And that was due to a lit candle .
M. Carey: Well, does anybody else have anything they want to bring before the Board?
More Mobile Home Ordinance Discussion
M. Carey: So everybody kind of think of things on mobile homes. I 'll talk to Glenn.
Be Albro: It would be a good idea to get his input to see if we can, in fact, have poured
sidewalks or something that would lead to -
Be Clark: Or if we could get a copy of Dryden's restrictions on single-wides to give us some
guidelines, that would help.
M. Carey: Lansing must have restrictions with that new Board of theirs.
M. Gunn: They don't have that much. They have an area where they are zoned to not be. But
where they are allowed, there isn't a whole lot of restrictions on them . No more than what we have .
Be Albro: You know, the worst thing too could be with that, he sets up all these lots and these
people bring in these single-family places, and they get behind on their lot rent or whatever and you're
jerking them back out after you've hooked them all up. You go through hooking your lights in, your
septic, your water, and if they have a fight with the owner, hit the road you know. And they'd be
traveling in and out of there all the time .
M. Carey: I still think that no matter how it's presented to us, we could still put quite a few
restrictions on it. That's allowable with our Board.
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(T) Groton Planning Board Regular Meeting Transcript 19 April 2001
M. Gunn: Well, if he came in with a proposal for, without the map in front of me, say for
argument's sake he could put six lots in on Cobb Street alone—if he comes in with a proposal and a
survey where he has surveyed it and he has six legal lots, side by side, and he went down to the tax
department and had it deeded as six separate lots in his own name, but he owns them all, is that a
subdivision if they have not changed hands?
M. Carey: Yes.
M. Gunn: For tax purposes, they've been separated.
M. Carey: Well, for tax purposes it would have to be considered a subdivision I would think.
V. Travis: I would think so.
M. Carey: Because in order for him to go the County to get separate tax parcels, I believe it has
to come through our Board to be approved for a subdivision.
M. Gunn: Okay.
T. Guihan I think you're right.
M. Gunn: So there's work on a subdivision before any mobile home could be done.
M. Carey: I mean he could put one up there. The second one would trigger your subdivision
laws. And whether it's all in his name or not, he's still, if he's going to have different tax parcels, I'm
sure it would have to come before our Board for a subdivision in order for it to get the separate tax map
numbers.
B. Albro: Then eventually they'd be all set up for him if he decided to sell. Just sell the lots
and somebody could put their own mobile home or whatever in there.
M. Carey: Right. But to just do it along the road, and that is a great big huge field, he'd be
cutting his throat because then he's got all that land out back even though he can come off from West
Groton Road. I mean, you've still got all that property out back if you're only going to do one-acre lots.
I mean we could even cut that right off with him too because then we're sort of landlocking that land
on Cobb Street by selling off each lot there.
B. Albro : He'd have to keep one lot open on one road or the other.
M. Carey: Well, the other side would definitely still be open on West Groton Road, but you're
talking about one- acre lots all along that road and you've got all this land behind it. You're not really
landlocking it, but still you've got land back there that's—what's going to happen to it? It's just going
to grow up because if he puts lots over on West Groton Road, then you've got -
B. Albro: Yes, his best interest to do this would be to put a road over it or right around it on
both sides.
Mark Gunn re Bob Bernhardt
M. Gunn: I did have another gentleman call me up at home two nights ago. Bob Bernhardt. He
lives on West Groton Road and has a beef farm. House is on one side and the barn's on the other.
Well he's not farming it anymore and the property on the opposite side of the road from the house
where the big barn is, he's buying a double-wide job trailer style double-wide with a bathroom and
separate kitchen and everything in it. He's buying it from the Ottenschot Estate in Lansing and he
called me up and wondered if he could set it up with a well, septic, and all of that. And I said well,
considering the fact that you have a legal-size lot there and it's not connected to the existing lot that
the house is on, there's no legal reason for me to deny him that. So I said well what's the use intended
for and he's actually got a business up there which I did not know about. He is a consulting business
Page 20 of 21
• 19 April 2001
(T) Groton Planning Board Regular Meeting Transcript P
and in putting pieces of this together, he told me has about six employees now with handicapped
disabilities, and they are doing repair work on, from what I could gather, electronics, phones,
something like that. And he has some sort of a Federal license or something for this. I later find out
through a conversation with a second party, second-hand conversation, that he is affiliated with
Challenge Industries. So it started all coming together a little bit when I heard that, but I told him that
I felt he had to come down here and get an application for a Site Plan Review. And he didn't quite
understand that with the license he already has, but I told him I really think you're going to have to
come down and get the application and go before the Board. He's been doing the business he says for
six years already out there.
M. Carey: Where have you Board members been?
M. Gunn: I had no idea.
Be Clark: I thought he was raising beef.
M. Carey: Well, that's how a lot of these home-based businesses get started. And unless we see
an advertisement, or they stick a sign out there, or something to that affect, there's a lot of home-based
businesses that we don't know anything about.
M. Gunn: The double-wide would be his office, storage space for the office equipment and stuff.
Apparently his wife is also in business up there making some sort of exercise equipment.
M. Carey: Well, in order to put that double-wide in, and if he's going to start having it as an
office, he'd have to come before our Board for a Special Permit.
M. Gunn: So be prepared. I feel hell be in. If he hasn't already picked up the paperwork from
April, I feel hell be here next month discussing it.
Adjournment
M. Carey: Well, if there's nothing else to come before the Board, do I hear a motion to adjourn?
Be Clark: I make a motion we adjourn the meeting.
V. Travis: I'll second it.
M. Carey: All in favor? (All members present indicated in the affirmative.) Meeting adjourned.
The meeting was adjourned at 8:40 p.m.
JqJ9 E . Fitch
cording Secretary 5/8/01
RECEIVED
MAY 1 1 2001
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TOWN CLERK