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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2000-04-20 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting - Thursday, 20 April 2000 - 7 : 30 PM Members, Groton Planning Board (*Absent) Others Present George Totman, Chairman Joan Fitch, Recording Secretary Monica Carey Mark Gunn, Town CEO George Van Slyke Don Scheffler, Town Councilman Van Travis, Acting Chairman Tyke Randall, Town Councilman Barbara Clark Harvey Baker, Applicant April Scheffler Jeff Snyder, Applicant Brenda Talbot V. Travis: Okay, we'll call the meeting to order, the Groton Town Planning Board. (The time was 7:35 p.m. ) Approval of Minutes - 16 March 2000 V. Travis: You received in your packet the Minutes of the March meeting. Are there any additions or corrections proposed to them? M. Carey: I'll make a motion that we approve them. V. Travis: We have a motion . Is there a second? B. Clark: I second. V. Travis: Okay . Without dissent they stand approved. G. Van Slyke: You didn't ask if anybody was dissenting. V. Travis: You'd say, I dissent. G. Van Slyke: You never asked for it. V. Travis: Is there any dissent? G. Van Slyke: No. Additions to Meeting Agenda V. Travis: Are there any additions to the Agenda other than what we have on the printed Agenda? (No response was received.) Harvey E. Baker, RO/Applicant = 670 Peru Road - TM # 31 - i - 11 V. Travis: Okay, Item No. 2 on the Agenda is Site Plan Review for Harvey Baker, 670 Peru Road . We have an application for Site Plan Review and Special Permit in our packet of materials. Who is Mr. Baker? Welcome . I guess my first question with regard to it is are you actually establishing a new business there? Or are you just simply wanting to construct this pole building? H. Baker: What I'm trying to do, and this is all contingent upon the buyer getting the money, is sell the building across the street, the old Cotanche chicken farm, Blackberry Hill Woodworking. Sell Page 1 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 that building, build a new efficient building across the street in the pasture, my pasture on the side of the house. V. Travis: I guess my question is does Mr. Baker require anything more than a Building Permit if this is not the establishment of a new business? Some of you are more experienced and longer tenured than I . A. Scheffler: Do you have a Special Permit for a business now? H. Baker: A Special Permit for a business? A. Scheffler: Yes, H. Baker: Yes, sure . M. Gunn: I talked to you and you let it go last year when you said H. Baker: I didn't let it go . I didn't let it go . V. Travis: What is the business? Why don't you just tell us what your business is because I don't H. Baker: I do some woodworking out of there -- part-time woodworking business in that building if you want to call it that. I have a full-time job in the daytime . I work thereat night by myself and on Saturday. V. Travis: And then sell items. H. Baker: I sell items that I make . M. Carey: And this new building's going to be just basically a storage area? H. Baker: I didn't know how to fill that out. That's going to be storage for my boat, my tractor, my motorcycle , my ATV -- I want to put that stuff inside and I want to do woodworking over in the new building. M. Carey: Okay, but you're not going to be renting out this as storage or anything to that effect? H. Baker: I never ever want to rent to a single person again. I have the space -- M. Carey: So basically you're just moving your small business that you're doing now -- H. Baker: Into a smaller building. M. Carey: -- to a different location? H. Baker: And to a smaller building and so I can heat it and have it electrified properly. Essentially, that's all I'm doing. Moving across the street. V. Travis: Well, this says that the Special Permit which was issued in June of 1968 has expired. H. Baker: I never, ever -- I was in Vietnam in 1968 , and I was 19 years old . So I don't know who filled out that permit, but it sure wasn't me. M. Carey: Well weren't you in here before when you started the antique place? H. Baker: Yes I was. Page 2 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 M. Carey: So there should be a permit for the antique place . H. Baker: The variance was applied for. The variance was approved by a committee - - I don't know -- G. Van Slyke: The Zoning Board of Appeals? H. Baker: It had to go to M. Carey: It went to our Board. M. Gunn: There's a typo. I'm sorry. It should be 86, June 2nd, 1986 . V. Travis: Why was the Special Permit revoked? M. Gunn: On January 5th, 1999, I wrote Mr. Baker a letter telling him he had a Life Safety Inspection due and I would be there on January 12th between 3 and 5. We spoke on the phone and he told me he was no longer doing business . H. Baker: That's not quite true. I called him on numerous occasions, him not ever calling me back. Calling his office. Not getting an answer. He sent the letter to the wrong address, not to Blackberry Hill Woodworking which has been here for since 1986. I'm working during the day. He didn't show up . He never answered my calls. Then he sent me a letter saying he was going to discontinue my permit, so fine, go ahead and discontinue my permit if that's what you want to do . I've paid taxes, done all this crap . If you want to do a Life Safety Inspection on a one-man shop, fine . V. Travis: The business that you are going to have , is it going to continue under the name of Blackberry Hill Antiques? H. Baker: No . No antiques. Antiques haven't been for six years, seven, five years, • six years . V. Travis: Are you going to have a display room where customers can come in? H. Baker: No. It's not open to the public. I will put something in areas that I intend to show, but it's not open for the public . It's not for public people to come in and buy items. V. Travis: So you take your things to shows , craft shows? How do you sell them? H. Baker: People come to me and say I want to buy a kitchen . I want to buy a bed. I want to buy a dresser. Or something like that. I don't make shows. I don't have to do shows. I have a clientele and customer following. M. Carey: Basically, they give you some sort of a plan -- H. Baker: They give me a plan or I design it for them, and then I go from there . M. Carey: So they never come into your building at all? H. Baker: Except to give me money. And that's not the same thing as a store . It's not the same thing as a public viewing area or anything. V. Travis: Are you going to have a sign? H. Baker: I got the sign that I already currently have out front that I'm sure that everybody has driven by and seen for the last how many years that is, fourteen years . I'd like to have that sign moved across the street. Maybe dress it up some more . Page 3 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 V. Travis: Well, I think the simplest thing to do is to - - seeing that this is such a simple process, why don't we do a Site Plan Review, do the SEAR Form, have everything in order and then you're golden. H. Baker: Well, I don't know what the SEQR plan is or any of that stuff. V. Travis: No. That really doesn't even involve you . That's a State Environmental Quality Review Act which we do as a Board. H. Baker: There's guys all over this Town that are doing exactly what I'm doing with nobody inspecting them. I'm on a main road and I'm getting inspected. That's fine . I put up a sign . Somebody can walk in the door. That's fine. I just don't understand that hypocrisy, if you will, of the system; that the system isn't inspecting everybody. V. Travis: Well, the fact that they haven't received Site Plan Reviews does not mean that they're right. They are not in compliance with the law. And, if detected, they would be required to -- H. Baker: Even though they've been doing it for 20 and 25 years, you're still going to detect them and punish them for working? M. Carey: No, we're not punishing them. V. Travis: There's no punishment involved. M. Carey: We just need the Site Plan Review to say that you're operating a small business on your property. H. Baker: I'm not trying to make any waves. I'm just trying to understand the system that doesn't seem to fit everybody in the system. You guys wanted a 10-copy thing; here it is. It's all contingent upon selling the existing building and the contractor building a building. M. Carey: Basically, a Site Plan Review is just acknowledging that you've got a small business operating on your property. H. Baker: I've had a small business operating on my property. M. Carey: Right. And we did a Site Plan Review for you back in '86 when you started the business. H. Baker: I've been through three inspectors, all of which have made appointments to see me, so on and so forth . I've had as many as six people working for me. I don't want employees anymore because I can't stand employees because they are worthless. V. Travis: What are your intended hours of operation for this business? H. Baker: I'm going to work at night after five usually, and on Saturdays during the day. V. Travis: Closed Sundays? H. Baker: I try not to work on Sunday if that's possible . V. Travis: So you work what, about 5 to 10 in the evening? H. Baker: Five to 10, and try 9 to 5 on Saturday. V. Travis: Is there a provision for some parking? Page 4 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 H. Baker: I'm going to -- it's not on there, but it's a matter of putting the gravel down and making room for -- V. Travis: For a business of this size, I believe it's minimal. H. Baker: There's an existing driveway there. There's approximately 15 to 20 feet from the driveway to where I propose to build the building. That whole area will be filled with gravel for parking. V. Travis: For how many spaces will that result in -- four cars can park there? H. Baker: No. That'll be eight cars. If you divide a car by ten feet by 80 feet. V. Travis: Which is more than adequate . There's no noise associated with this business outside of the outside of the building itself? H. Baker: No. V. Travis: You're not running a lumber mill? H. Baker: A planer makes the loudest noise V. Travis: Yes, but it's inside . It's inside . Are there other questions that any of the Board members have of Mr. Baker? A. Scheffler: There may be a property line problem. You're putting it on the same lot as your house, right? H. Baker: No. A. Scheffler: No? Which lot are you putting it on on here? M. Carey: He's got a drawing there. A. Scheffler: I've seen that. G. Van Slyke: Is Lyndaker in the trailer next to you? A. Scheffler: Yes. H. Baker: Oh , I see. This is the wrong drawing. This is not correct. A. Scheffler: What's not right? This is the tax map . H. Baker: This is the tax map? This isn't the current tax map. A. Scheffler: Yes, it's the last one we have . H. Baker: It's not the one that I saw. A. Scheffler: It's the last one we have . H. Baker: Okay. Well, in that case, yes, it's right in here . A. Scheffler: Is your property line different than that? Have you changed it? H. Baker: Have I changed my property line. A. Scheffler: Yes, Page 5 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 H. Baker: I don't know what you're talking about. A. Scheffler. Why do you say this isn't right? H. Baker: Because it's not the drawing that I just got from the tax people and the tax review that I just got. A. Scheffler. What was theirs like? H. Baker: Totally different than yours . M. Carey. Have you opened this property all up then, because it shows like three different tax parcels? H. Baker: There was six. M. Carey: Oh, there was six and you filed the whole thing and now it's all under one tax map? H. Baker: No, I can't get it under one. G. Van Slyke : Okay. Do us a favor and locate the buildings -- these two -- where you've got on your drawing the house with the pool . Where would that be , approximately, on this? H. Baker: That little , tiny thing right there . G. Van Slyke : This little , tiny thing right here? So you're coming right in here? H. Baker: Yes. A. Scheffler: Which would put it right across that property line . H. Baker: It's not across the property line. Are you talking about between me and my neighbor? A. Scheffler: No, your two lots. H. Baker: I have six different plots of land. A. Scheffler. But they are different plots. They each have a boundary line . Because if you want to sell it sometime, it's a problem. H. Baker: Not unless it's surveyed by the potential buyer; then only is it a problem. If they require a survey, then it's a survey. That's not what the property looks like to the County tax people at this point. G. Van Slyke: In other words, that little place that's yellowed in here -- it doesn't exist? H. Baker: It's under a different tax plot. G. Van Slyke: Tax number, but it's not separated with a boundary line from everything else you want? H. Baker: I don't know what you're saying. G. Van Slyke: Well, what I'm saying is that it appears from this map -- H. Baker: There's 42 acres of property that I own over there. Are we having a problem? Page 6 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 G. Van Slyke : There's one, two, three -- you have six pieces of property, right? I don't know why that's yellowed in. H. Baker: Because that's an old line . That's an old property County tax sheet is what that is, or whatever you guys -- A. Scheffler: No, this isn't an old one . This is the most recent one we have from - - H. Baker: From what year? A. Scheffler: This year. H. Baker: That says 2000 on it? A. Scheffler: Yes, H. Baker: Okay. They cut my other building right in half with a new one, so I don't know where that fits. But that building's been there since 1959 and they ran the property line right through that one . A. Scheffler: Well, some of these buildings don't -- are not really where they are. Some of these buildings on these maps look like they are in a different spot from where they really are . H. Baker: Do you know how they did this? They did it with a computer. A. Scheffler: And satellite . H. Baker: And it isn't even following the treeline , the creekline, or anything else there. And now I have to conform to that which isn't drawn exactly. But I have to conform to that? In order to build a building? A. Scheffler: No , you don't have to conform to that, but if this is what your lot is and it's not big enough for that building to be on -- H. Baker: There's 16 acres that it sits on. I don't know what you're talking about. A. Scheffler: I'm talking about the little lot where your house is. H. Baker: The lot the house is on was 1 . 92 acres is what it was originally. Okay? Now they've changed it. Now you're saying that they've changed it, now we're not going to be able to put a building there. Even though there was buildings there to begin with when Cotanche owned it, now I'm not going to be able to put a building there? A. Scheffler: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying you might have to do a boundary change in order to put it there . You might have to take this boundary out in order to put it there . H. Baker: Who would do that? A. Scheffler: Our Board, H. Baker: Who? M. Carey: Our Board. V. Travis: We would. Page 7 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 H. Baker: You would . How you gonna get those guys down there to change it on their computer, because I couldn't get them to change it. They cut my other building right in half. How you going to get them to change that? They wouldn't change that. A. Scheffler: I know people that on these pictures their building is on the next people's lot, so I mean these buildings are not exactly where they are, and it's not like they're going to make you move your building. H. Baker: I know they're not. But you're making it more difficult than it needs to be. I mean , what is the point of what you're trying to do? I don't understand it. Out of 42 acres I want to build on a 16-acre lot. The County, for whatever reason, the computer did a computer picture that cuts buildings in half and we're going to be judged or graded on the County's tax maps . I don't get it. Be Clark: Well, there should be a surveyed line . H. Baker: There is a surveyed line right next -- Be Clark: So if you go 15 foot off that surveyed line, he'd be okay wouldn't he? A. Scheffler: I'm talking about this line . H. Baker: What she's saying is that where somebody's yellowed in means that -- A. Scheffler: What he's talking about is this line . This is the line he wants to put it on . It's going to extend back into this lot because this lot's only -- Me Carey: Just take that boundary line out and open it up to one whole big parcel. H. Baker: Why couldn't I get one parcel as it is from the tax people? They wouldn't do that either. Why couldn't I get that? M. Carey: You'd have to have your land re-surveyed . H. Baker: I got surveys. I got my land survey right here . M. Carey: You'd have to get approval from us for a boundary change and then you'd have to have it re-surveyed which will cost you a lot of money. H. Baker: Now here's my survey. This is just on one side of the road, okay? I mean, they don't go by that. Why should we go by that? G. Van Slyke: Is that your house side of the road, that survey? H. Baker: This is the house side of the road, yes. G. Van Slyke: Can we see that? Just curiosity. Not trying to be a pain in the butt. H. Baker: Well, excuse my impatience, but I mean it makes it so difficult to exist and do business in this County and this Town when I'm trying to do something legitimate here . I'm not working out of a garage or a pickup truck like 20 other guys or 30 other guys in this area. And you don't collect taxes from those guys. They don't send kids to school or anything else. They're just coming in and doing work and going out and nobody says anything about that. You do a legitimate business, and you jump all over them. V. Travis: What are you finding, George? Page 8 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 G. Van Slyke. Well, the line is there , but the one around his house , the one that shows up - - the boundary line is there in the survey. Then there's another one here . This is - - you know, why don't we just two boundary changes on those two parcels? Okay. This one parcel was White's before , right? H. Baker: I bought that, too. G. Van Slyke: Right, but this is one that's -- H. Baker: You've got a snowball's chance in hell -- G. Van Slyke: We're not really that bad, but -- H. Baker: You're making this thing a big deal . G. Van Slyke: You had this out, this boundary here that goes back to this old tax map, right? This has an entirely different tax map . H. Baker: I know. G. Van Slyke: And so does this. H. Baker: You know what I did with this stuff? I took and paid the taxes back to 1937 to get it all caught up to date . I'm sorry I'm getting angry, and it's not funny either. I really don't think it's funny. A. Scheffler: I don't think it's funny either. We have rules we have to follow too , and that's what we're trying to do. H. Baker: Nobody paid those taxes through all the owners; but I did to clear it up on the map, okay? And now the tax thing has got this thing screwed up and I've got to pay the penalty for that I rap I'm facing here for this thing. The line is through it. So what. Is it something you guys legally have to do? Where is it written? Where is it written? M. Gunn: You cannot build on a dividing line. And it's simple enough . All that has to be done is just what you've done, bring that map in . All those lines can be taken out. That whole thing can be one piece of property and you can put a building anywhere on that piece of property as you want. And the County cannot do that for you until this Board does that paperwork. That does it all . B. Clark: Is there a cost to do that, to change the boundary lines? M. Gunn: It's a different application for a boundary change, but it's- nothing that - - H. Baker: There is no boundary change here . It's interpretation. I'm not building on the boundary. The boundary is me and the trailer next door that you guys allowed to be put in there . You guys put a trailer in there. There isn't a trailer in this Town anywheres. You put in a 40-year old trailer on the main road . M. Gunn: The existing boundary lines are as you bought each piece of property. Just because you -- H. Baker: I bought it at one time . M. Gunn: But the boundary lines were there . There were lot lines there . Just because you buy one next to the other doesn't mean that lot line goes away. H. Baker: This property goes back to 1835. That's where this property goes back to . Whoever did this back in those days , I don't know. But it hasn't been sold in lots since 1835 , Page 9 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 V. Travis: But the lot lines continued to exist regardless of who the owner is. Even though they adjoin, you can still own more than -- H. Baker: Well, what are we going to do about the shop over there, the 265-foot building that's cut in half by those lines? What are you going to do about that when I try to sell that? M. Gunn: Come in and do a boundary change. H. Baker: I'm not going to do a boundary change when you fools at the County level did this. You got a problem with that, sir? M. Gunn: No. H. Baker: You cut a building in half and you expect me to follow those rules. You put property on other people's property and you expect those people to follow the rules. Satellite-generated computer, and we're all graded and taxed on a building based upon a computer-generated thought . And I don't get it. V. Travis: Are you saying that this map is inaccurate? H. Baker: Absolutely. V. Travis: That the property line does not run through the long, former chicken house? That's what you're referring to, right? H. Baker: Absolutely, V. Travis: And that's not correct. H. Baker: That is not correct. V. Travis: That building was not built across the property line. H. Baker: That's correct. V. Travis: And how did the line get there on this map now? H. Baker: Through a computer. Junk in, junk out. V. Travis: Then you need to appeal H. Baker: I did. V. Travis: How did you make your appeal? H. Baker: To the people at the County tax office and assessment office in Ithaca. V. Travis: And they said -- H. Baker: Too bad. There's nothing we're going to do about that. . There's nothing we can do about it at this time . Not only that, it had half of my stuff, not to mention a line going through the building. It's done with a computer. They don't care . V. Travis: Well, I think you need to get an attorney to -- H. Baker: If I get an attorney, I will get an attorney, okay. If I have to get an attorney. But if I get an attorney, then other things will happen too, if I need to. I'm not a criminal here . I'm trying to build a building. I've been in existence in this building for 14 years. I've paid taxes in this community Page 10 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 for 17 years. Okay? And you keep jacking the taxes up around here, left and right. You're driving people away in droves. And I'm trying to stay here and you're making it difficult with some line . V. Travis: What would you like us to do tonight? H. Baker: I don't know what you're going to do tonight. I shouldn't have sent in the damn thing because then you guys would have been happy. I could have walked out the door and you would have left things alone . But I couldn't do that because Mr. Gunn over here works another job. He calls me up. He leaves messages on my machine that if I don't show up for an inspection he's going to close my building and all this other stuff. Wait a minute . Answer your damn phone . Okay? But I have to put up with an inspector who has another job, who's not a trained inspector, okay? Oh , okay -- you're trained, okay. He wants to come and inspect me. Inspect all the other businesses in the area. Now I come in and apply for this thing. You want a 10-copy review, so on and so forth . This is the proposal. The proposed site. I want to build a building if the other building is sold . I want to build a totally approved building by Mr. Gunn and whoever else inspects that area there, electrical and so on and so forth . V. Travis: Okay. The thing that we can do is we can make the property line changes to take care of you in perpetuity. H. Baker: How? V. Travis: How? Because we have the legal authority. That's what Planning Boards do. Simple as that. Individual citizens cannot walk into the tax department and do that. But we can . My question of you is, if you were to have this property ideally described and drawn here, how would you have it done? If we were to do what you would like to have done, --- H. Baker: I wanted one piece of properly for the tax rolls instead of six and seven pieces of property in different tax forms. G. Van Slyke: Okay. I think that one of the things that maybe we can help you with here is by doing three boundary changes on the one side of the road . The tax map on the other side of the road , this thing has to stay the same , doesn't it? M. Carey: That's a different tax parcel, right? G. Van Slyke: That's a different parcel . But everything that's on the same side of the road that your house is on -- I'm talking about your 15 -- H. Baker: Are you reading a tax number or something? G. Van Slyke: No, it says 15 acres. H. Baker: I don't have that. G. Van Slyke: Okay. It's 15 acres on #22 , 10. 3 is 15 . 87 acres, and you've got a 10. 1 acre piece, and then you've got where your house is, which is the 1 point you said 9? Whatever it is. But anyway, what we could do, we could take those boundaries out and leave you one parcel on this side of the road, by doing a boundary change . H. Baker: Well, they wouldn't do that before . G. Van Slyke: Well, I mean, that's one of the things we're allowed to do. The only problem is we can't - - we couldn't put the other side of the road on it because it's a different tax map . It's like a guy owns property on two sides of the road , okay, which you do . You can incorporate all that property one side into a piece of property, and then you can take the other one on the other side and it has to be treated separately because it's on the other side of the highway. In doing so, if we did that, then that would leave it open -- take away the building across the boundary line thing, if we did it for you . Okay? Page 11 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 Because now your little , where your house is, would be part of that 10. 3 which would be part of the 10. 1 which would be part of the 22 . So if we do three boundary changes here and give you one parcel there, would that satisfy you? H. Baker: Sure. I mean, you know, I'm coming off very hard and I apologize for that. M. Carey: When you sell across the road too , you'll have to have that surveyed and - - H. Baker: But the problem is this wasn't like this is the point I'm trying to make. On the other hand, this is how I'm being viewed . How they can take a building and cut it in half when that building was on a total piece of different property is beyond me . Now to get them to change that, how did it get changed to begin with is the problem I'm talking about. You run 20,000 chickens. You can do anything that you want. And the taxes on that building were $278 . 1 bought that building and the taxes are now $4500. Okay? And nobody inspected the dead chickens when they threw them out back on the creek. Nobody inspected the leach pond that they had, putting the manure in Owasco Inlet. But put a business in there and we've got to have no line through the building here, you know. Farmers can do whatever they want. They can gut pigs out there . They can kill cows, drag them out into the hedgerows. And I was a farmer when I was a kid. I don't have anything against farmers, but let's not have two different standards. If you're going to have standards, put the farmers on there too with all their shit wagons and all the ponds and all the crap that they put on their fields. M. Carey: The farming industry has changed tremendously. H. Baker: It's changed tremendously. And they can build anything they want without any specifications from this site Planning Board, from the Code, or from anything else . And that's how their roofs collapse when the snow load comes in and everything else. M. Carey: Let's do a boundary change . V. Travis: Let's move forward . H. Baker: You may want to address that double standard issue . V. Travis: We have nothing to say about it. M. Carey: It's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about your property and your application that you've put before us. V. Travis: I mean would you like that to be one piece of property. H. Baker: I guess, if that's what it's going to take to get this done . V. Travis: And that is parcel # 11 . Follow me on this, George, because you looked at the maps down there. Parcel # 11 , Parcel # 10. 3. Parcel # 10. 1 , and Parcel #22 to be combined into one parcel of -- G. Van Slyke: So now it's going to be 15, 309 879 96 - - I can't read the little one . V. Travis: I don't know what the size of the little one is -- it's about a half an acre . 200 by 100 is 20,000 square feet and there's 43, 560 square feet in an acre. A. Scheffler. This is 1 . 9 , so that one's smaller than that one . V. Travis: Yes. So you want me to do the arithmetic? The little one I'm going to say is zero point five zero ; 22 is 15 acres; and 4.09 for 10. 1 . M. Carey: Who gives the tax parcel numbers? J. Fitch: The County Real Property Tax Services, Page 12 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 M. Carey: Oh, okay. V. Travis: Thirty-five plus acres. Does that sound about right to you? H. Baker: Yes, V. Travis: Approximately -- M. Carey: It has the right amount of road frontage . V. Travis: Approximately 35. 46 acres. And if you add what's acrbss the street, which is 10 acres, it makes 46 and we're just about on the money. H. Baker: See on the pond side, that's designated wetlands which I've been paying taxes on . You can't do anything on it. You can't build on it. I can't fill it, you know, because the DEC told me that. But I'm still paying taxes on it --- V. Travis: We need a motion in that regard . G. Van Slyke: I would make the motion that we change the boundaries on the right side of the road J. Fitch: Why don't you just say combine tax map numbers whatever into one parcel, containing 35 . 46± acres? G. Van Slyke: Excellent. M. Carey: I'll second it. V. Travis: We have a motion and a second . Is there other discussion with respect to that? A. Scheffler: We need to collect the fee. V. Travis: The fee for it will be $20, is that right? H. Baker: I already paid $30. There's a different fee now? V. Travis: For the boundary change there is another fee . It is $20, All those in favor, say aye. (All Board members present indicated in the affirmative.) Opposed? The motion is unanimously carried. A. Scheffler: What do you want to do with the fee? H. Baker: Do you want the money now? V. Travis: I don't know. Are we prepared to collect it now? A. Scheffler: I can take it and Mark can lock it in his desk. Or if you want to come in tomorrow to the Town Clerk's Office . V. Travis: Tomorrow, or whenever it's convenient for you, and do that. Are you capable of filling that out so that takes care of that. George, would you lead us through the SEAR review? G. Van Slyke: Yes, I guess. Okay, what this amounts to is questions about environmental impact. So here we go. Ready? Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part 11 of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all Page 13 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 questions in Part H. Therefore , it was determined by the Planning Board, upon the motion made by Member Van Slyke , seconded by Member Carey, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a Negative Declaration. V. Travis: With regard to the Site Plan Review and the Special Permit for Mr. Harvey Baker to operate a woodworking shop on his property as described in the application, hours 5 to 10 p.m. weekdays, 9 to 5 on Saturday, with adequate parking for eight cars, do I hear a motion to approve that application? G. Van Slyke: I make that motion. V. Travis: Is there a second? B. Talbot: I'll second it. V. Travis: Is there any further discussion? All those in favor say aye . (All Board members present indicated aye.) Opposed? The motion is carried. Mr. Baker, I believe we've done all the damage to you we can do tonight. H. Baker: Sorry to be frustrated . V. Travis: We understand the frustration . H. Baker: There's been a number of things that have occurred. Every time the Town has contacted me, they can't get my name correct, the name of my business correct, even though I'm in this community for 17 years, originally from Lansing, and after awhile -- you know they took away my voting privileges up front here for some reason. I had to go to the County for that as well. After awhile you get tired of dealing with bureaucracy as it is. It becomes a pain when you're trying to do the right thing. There's plenty of people doing the wrong thing that nobody does anything about. It's when you try to do the right thing, that's the people that do the right thing that pay the bills and are fined for doing the right thing. It gets old after awhile. V. Travis: Just one other thing I would say. If at some point you want to get that boundary change on the other side of the road H. Baker: That will have to occur. V. Travis: We'd be glad to take care of it. H. Baker: And you're the guys that I have to come to for that? V. Travis: Yes, and it's about as simple as it was tonight. You tell us how you want it, and assuming it complies with H. Baker: I don't want it to cut through the middle of the building. It was a total separate map. Now its a different map and you've got to fight a computer. Why should we have to fight a computer? We shouldn't have to . Why do we have to fight a satellite? We shouldn't have to. Let them do their job. They won't do it. They don't even drive by now and inspect the house. They say it's a house, three bedrooms, $54,000, Wait a minute . It's not even finished. They don't care. Enough 's enough sometimes. Thank you. V. Travis: You're welcome . Chairman Totman arrives at 8 *20 p .m . V. Travis: We're at the next item, so we have a clean break. Page 14 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 Jeff Snyder, Applicant - West Groton Road - TM #22- 1 - 1 . 1 - Review Special Permit V. Travis: Item number 2 . 1 misspoke. Excuse me . Item number three on the Agenda, request by Jeff Snyder to review his Special Permit and provide for number of vehicles allowed at his motor vehicle repair shop at 375 West Groton Road , Tax Map 22- 1 - 1 . 1 . To be honest with you, I don't know what that means, so Mr. Snyder, welcome. Fill us in on what the nature of the request is. J. Snyder: Mark told me that there's nothing on my Permit, no stipulations on how many vehicles I can have parked in the yard, and so I want to know how many I can have parked in the yard. V. Travis: Okay. And do we have -- is this the answer with respect to -- do we have a plot map in there? Yes. According to this, your business is located on 2 .44 acres. Have I got the right thing here on West Groton Road, is that right? And it is surrounded by property owned by Todd T igg and J. Vergadamo (?) . Have I got the right spot? Okay. So there's lots of acreage there . M. Carey: What is listed on the Special Permit right now? V. Travis: Nothing, I guess. Is that correct? G. Van Slyke : I looked at the folder and it said adequate parking. M. Carey: We must have had hours of operation. G. Van Slyke: We had the hours of operation, but that's the only thing we had . G. Totman: Hours of operation and adequate parking, but we didn't put down how many cars could be parked in the lot. Is that correct? G. Van Slyke : I guess that's the problem. G. Totman a Yes. G. Van Slyke: I don' t know why we didn't think about that back then. M. Carey: Well, I think we kind of talked about it didn't we? Because isn't that where the Junkyard Permit comes in? He couldn't have any vehicles parked outside basically. G. Van Slyke: Yes. Wasn't there something about most of it would be done inside? M. Carey: Right. How big a garage do you have? J. Snyder: Ward had a Junkyard Permit up there. Since I've bought the property, the Junkyard Permit is still good there I guess until he turns it in or it expires. But since I'm the new owner, I need something on my permit to provide for that. G. Van Slyke : In other words you bought the shop out front? You didn't buy the whole junkyard? J. Snyder: I bought it all. G. Van Slyke: You bought the whole junkyard? J. Snyder, Right. G. Totman: But he's not running it as a junkyard? J. Snyder: No, I'm trying to go for the Junkyard Permit, G. Totman: I read that. But in the meantime, you're doing repair work which Ward wasn't doing on that property, correct? He was just running it as a junkyard? Page 15 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 J. Snyder: Right. G. Totman: I was just refreshing my memory from the Minutes. V. Travis: I have read the Minutes -- M. Carey: How many cars does the garage hold now at one time? J. Snyder: I'm not sure ; you could pack quite a few in there if you wanted to. M. Carey: I mean, how many would you be working on at one time that would be inside the garage? J. Snyder: About three cars inside. G. Van Slyke: Okay, I guess the question is, how many would you anticipate you'd have to have parking for? J. Snyder: That's kind of hard to determine . Me only being there a short period of time and what the future brings, I mean I've got four customer vehicles there now, sitting outside . And I'm not sure what the future holds . V. Travis: These are vehicles that are brought for work? J. Snyder: Right, V. Travis: They are held until the work is done and then they leave . Is that right? This is not a permanent type of storage of vehicles as would be the case of a junkyard. Is that right? J. Snyder: Right. V. Travis: As someone who knows more about the junkyard side of it, what are the prohibitions there that relate to this application here? G. Totman: With a junkyard the only thing is everything has to be inside the fence . V. Travis: Okay, G. Totman: As I understand it, he has applied to renew Ward Harrison's Junkyard Permit only in his name . But he's also running a repair shop which , if you take your car there, he's going to have to set it outdoors if he doesn't have room enough in the garage . And what he's saying is could you give me the number of cars that I can have outside of my garage to run my repair garage, other than a junkyard. Is that correct? J. Snyder: Right. G. Van Slyke: Okay, the question that comes up in my mind is, do you have to park them out in front? Or can you put them behind the fence? J. Snyder: Yes, they are all behind the fence. G. Totman: Then if they're all behind the fence, and you get the junkyard -- and there's some controversy about renewing the Junkyard Permit - - J. Snyder: Oh, I know. G. Totman: But if you get the Junkyard Permit, then he wouldn't have a problem. Bbt if he doesn't get the Junkyard Permit, he's got a problem -- or not really a problem. We've got to determine Page 16 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 by the nature of the lay of his premises up there how many cars can be legally outside like we've had with other repair shops that have had permits to run a vehicle repair shop . G. Van Slyke: Well, since you've got the map in front of you , Van, why don't you -- is there any way that we'd know how much space is out in front of the repair shop if you were going to park them out in front? Then you could determine how many vehicles could be parked at that point. V. Travis: Is that the building right over there about against the - - is that the repair shop there? J. Snyder: Yes, V. Travis: So the repair shop is right over here, right tight against the boundary of a 2. 44 acre parcel, so there is just essentially room everywhere . How much is actually in front, I can't really - - I think this says there's about 225 feet -- M. Carey: It's pretty darn close to the repair shop , right? The junkyard fence is. G. Van Slyke: Is the fence real close to the road? I can't remember. G. Totman: It's the edge of the road right-of-way. G. Van Slyke: Huh? G. Totman: It's the edge of the road right-of-way. M. Carey: It's that close? G. Totman: Well, it's about 30 feet from the center of the road. That'd be all right, wouldn't it? J. Snyder: Close . G. Van Slyke: So you really don't have any space in front of the repair shop to park anything? J. Snyder: Not really with the driveway there . G. Van Slyke: Everything would have to be done out back. A. Scheffler: Or to the side. You 're talking about putting it within the fence, right? J. Snyder: Right. A. Scheffler: Because the gate's right there , too. M. Carey: So, basically, if you have to park cars, you have to park them behind the fence anyway, right? J. Snyder: Especially if they are smashed up or anything. G. Totman: Do you do body and fender work? J. Snyder: Yes, G. Totman: And you've been there since last fall? J. Snyder: Well, last May. G. Totman: May. So normally -- like if my car gets smashed up and I want to get it repaired, I'm not going to leave it there for three or four months to get repaired, or I'll take it someplace else. Correct? Page 17 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 J. Snyder: Yes. But that's not always the case. I've got a truck there now that the guy smashed last fall and he's paying out of pocket. G. Totman: Okay, normally they are insurance jobs. J. Snyder: Right. A. Scheffler: But it's still a work in progress. Right. G. Totman : I guess what I was trying to get at is how many cars of customers do think you would have where they would be leaving their cars for more than a month at a time? J. Snyder: Well, also , I bought an old pickup that I want to fix up and either drive it or sell it or whatever. But I want to be able to fix it up G. Totman: To sell? J. Snyder: Yes. M. Carey: Sell them there on that property? J. Snyder: No. That means another permit. M. Carey: Right. G. Totman: You know a lot depends here I think, as far as we're concerned , is whether he gets a permit or not for the continuation of the junkyard -- because if he does, he can put them behind the fence, is that correct? J. Snyder: Yes. Multiple conversations at one time , unable to transcribe. M. Carey: I was going to say -- A. Scheffler: . . .can still put them behind the fence . G. Van Slyke: You can still put them behind the fence . M. Carey: You can always take that fence down if you don't get the permit for the junkyard . J. Snyder: Well, some of it probably. A. Scheffler. Make it smaller. M. Carey. But there'd still be a place behind that fence to park cars . M. Gunn: Jeff, do you need any parts cars? J. Snyder: Occasionally. I mean it's kind of -- you'd have to M. Gunn: Inoperable unregistered junk vehicles, pull parts off from. Is that also what you're asking for? J. Snyder: Right, Page 18 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 M. Gunn: So not just customer cars, but you need inoperable, unregistered vehicles to keep there for parts? J. Snyder: I bought a car that was rolled over and I'm just going to take the motor and the transmission out of it and then the rest of it goes to Ward' s. M. Gunn: So if you're allowed to have X amount of vehicles on your Special Permit, you might not necessarily have to have a junkyard . J. Snyder: Up for debate, I guess. A. Scheffler: But if you don't get the Junkyard Permit, you have to know what you can do to keep your business going which is why you're here . J. Snyder: Right, Exactly. V. Travis: How much room is there around the building that is outside of the fence? In other words, where cars could be parked. Or is the fence tight against -- I have not been to the property. J. Snyder: Up to the V. Travis: It is. G. Totman: Mark, could you get Gary Lane's folder for me? J. Snyder: So virtually any car that I bring in to work on has to go behind the fence? M. Carey. How many unlicensed vehicles have we allowed on other properties? A. Scheffler. Is there a door into the building from the fenced side, or no? J. Snyder: Do you mean out front? A. Scheffler: Inside the fence. Is there an overhead door that goes into the building from inside the fence? J. Snyder: I know what you're going to say. G. Totman: Doesn't he have a Special Permit to operate a body and fender shop? Gary? M. Gunn: Yes. G. Totman: This is not it, though . I don't know. This says junkyard. V. Travis: What is this permit down here? M. Gunn: Operation of a vehicle repair shop . G. Totman : But there's no -- I was looking -- 575 Cobb Street we allowed a similar type operation . Body and fender shop , painting. Gary Lane. That's why I asked Mark for his folder so we could tell the Board what -- G. Van Slyke : He's also a registered retail dealer, right? M. Carey: I think we gave him a turnkey operation. G. Totman: I was looking to see what we allowed him to have. But it doesn't say on his Special Permit. Normally we look at how much land you have available on the sides or in the rear, and Page 19 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 reasonably what you would require not to have an over excess of cars visible in the neighborhood just sitting around, because it could be that you could almost look like you're running a junkyard when you don't have a junkyard license . You know, according to the neighbors. And that's the purpose of this review. So we've done other areas, things like this around Town , and I was just thinking of Gary Lane because -- Me Carey: I'm sure we gave him -- G. Totman : But I don't find what I'm looking for. M. Carey: I thought we had G. Van Slyke: Is he the one that's going to build a fence? M. Carey: No, that's our other friend . G. Totman: Doesn't it usually tell on a Special Permit how much they're allowed? M. Gunn: If you guys stated it. A. Scheffler: to be on there. G. Van Slyke: The ones that we limited the number of cars were like the repair shops where they just do like oil changes and -- Me Carey: But he's going for body and fender. G. Van Slyke: What? M. Carey: He's going to do body and fender. G. Van Slyke: Right. Those are the ones we limited like the one up on Chipman's Corners Road . We gave him so many but they had to be turnkey cars. I don't know if these would be - - Multiple conversations going on; unable to transcribe all. Concentrated on Member Van Slyke 's comments. M. Carey: What about Volbrecht up on Chipman's Corners Road . Doesn't he have a motor vehicle -- M. Gunn: He's out of business. M. Carey: Well, what did we give him? M. Gunn: A motor vehicle repair shop . G. Totman: You know Sherry O'Brien don't you , Jeff? J. Snyder: Yes, G. Totman : See, what we did with him is he gave us a layout of his land and showed us where the cars are going to be that were being stored for future repair or whatever, and we set a limit. I think in his case it was ten cars, if I remember correctly. M. Carey: I think it's fourteen and they have to be lined up with so many on either side . G. Van Slyke : They had to be lined up . Page 20 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 G. Totman: You don't have that room if you're outside the fence , right? A. Scheffler: He's going to be inside the fence, though . J. Snyder: I still would have room in front of the fence but, I mean, everything -- G. Totman: Supposing if you're doing body and fender work and you've got customer's cars, not counting the junkyard part, if we said to you that you could have 10 cars as long as they were lined up in an orderly fashion, and that not more than 6 of those cars would be non- turnkey cars. Would that make sense to you? J. Snyder: No. G. Totman : Do you think there's going to be more customers than that? J. Snyder: No, I just think that everything's going to be behind the fence in a neat an orderly fashion. G. Totman : Yes, but I'm assuming -- okay. You're applying for a junkyard ordinance . If you got the junkyard, then what you can put behind the fence is junk as long as you follow the junkyard rules and regulations. That's different. I'm assuming that you don't have a junkyard ordinance. J. Snyder: Right. But I could still park turnkey vehicles behind the fence . G. Totman: As long as they are turnkey vehicles, yes. That means you put the key in and they turn over and they start. J. Snyder: Or I could put a salvage vehicle there . G. Van Slyke : Itinerant vehicles behind the fence . G. Totman: Well, we're trying to come up with a number -- how many, You can't have 25 or 30 or something like that, otherwise you're running a junkyard. And if you don't get a junkyard license, then that's -- J. Snyder: I was looking for like 15 . G. Totman : All turnkeys? J. Snyder: No. G. Van Slyke: Fifteen total. M. Carey: How many would be turnkeys? J. Snyder: That's hard to say. G. Van Slyke: Half of them? J. Snyder: Possibly. I don't even know where the 15 cars would come from right now. A. Scheffler: It would vary. So maybe you'd have 15, maybe you'd have 2 the next week. Right? I would think if Sherry can have 14 without a fence , sitting almost on the road -- V. Travis: I think the fence is a side issue with respect to the repair shop . Well, it's not required. J. Snyder: Right. Page 21 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 V. Travis: For one thing. Whereas with a junkyard it is. There happens to be a fence there, but with respect to this decision , your request is that you'd be able to have a repair shop and have vehicles on the property. I think the fence doesn't really come into play on this decision , and that what you're really seeking is that if you don't get the Junkyard Permit, you still want to be able to operate the body and fender shop and have vehicles on the premises . J. Snyder: Right, V. Travis: You're saying you'd like to have 15 vehicles; there's 2 .44- acres here which is quite a bit of land, and so I don't see why we don't - - and I have not been to the property so I'm not familiar with what the neighborhood is and that, but basically if they are lined up neatly in a row and the place looks pretty decent, then I think that' s what really the nature of this request is. G. Totman: . You see , whatever we come up with , it's got to be something that when it's inspected on a yearly basis that somebody has a guideline as to what to look for. You don't follow me . The purpose of this meeting is to set some kind of a guideline , so you approve it and we say 14 vehicles. And assuming the fence isn't there right now, okay, forget the fence . If you don't get approval for that , the junkyard will have to be removed anyway. J. Snyder: No, the fence will always be there. G. Totman : Okay. But the junkyard won't be there. J. Snyder: Right. G. Totman: We have to assume here we're not talking about the junkyard . J. Snyder: Right. G. Totman: So that once a year when you get a Special Permit and it gets inspected as to what the conditions were in the Special Permit, so if the conditions are that you can have 12 turnkey cars out there, 10 turnkeys out there, and 4 that are not turnkeys, they've got to be in such a place and such a manner that it doesn't look like a junkyard. And in the annual inspection , if the person that's doing the inspection finds you got 20 there, then you're in violation of the permit. J. Snyder: Right. G. Totman : So if we allow 10 customers' cars to be repaired back and forth , or turnkey cars , and 4 that are not turnkey cars, could you live with that? J. Snyder: No. I'm looking to have 15 cars there total at any given time . One time there might be less, one time -- will never be more than that, but most of the time it would be less than that. G. Totman: Well, I said 14 so you're not . . . one car, then, right? J. Snyder: Well, when Mark comes up for his inspection, I don't want to have to go out and charge batteries on everything and G. Totman: No . A turnkey car, to me , is a car that if the battery's charged up you can put the key in and start it. J. Snyder: Yes. G. Totman : If it's going to set for awhile, the battery might be dead anyway. That's not what I'm talking about, Can it be started? Can it be started and moved? Either with booster cables or whatever. Page 22 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 J. Snyder: Well also in my line of work I buy a car and I might take a dashboard out or take pieces out of it which enables the car from starting it that way. G. Totman: But you think you 'd have -- how many old cars do you think you'd have around? J. Snyder: I don't know. G. Totman: Because the way cars change nowadays, parts -- it isn't like it used to be when you could switch parts back and forth for years and years and years. You know that better than 1 . But the idea of the old proverbial junkyards don't exist like they used to for parts because they change so much. Otherwise , they just sit there and pile up as junk. J. Snyder: Well that's, you know, even with the Junkyard Permit I'm not going to have a Junkyard , It's just a legal way of being able to have cars there . Technically, more than two cars is a junkyard. G. Totman: Not on a permit like this . If we allow -- if we give a Special Permit for a motor vehicle repair shop, and we allow so many cars, that's not a junkyard because you'd have a Special Permit to do that. The guy that has two or more that constitutes a junkyard is people that just let cars pile up in their yards and is so offensive to the neighborhoods . There's a difference there . V. Travis: Well, what if we said 15 cars? Arranged in a neat and orderly fashion. J. Snyder: I mean that neat and orderly fashion is the way I do a business anyway. M. Carey: Well, we could start at 15 and then if the business increases -- G. Van Slyke : We're talking between 14 and 15 and we're sitting here doing this for what? V. Travis: Whether they're turnkey or not, you know if a car's in there for work, it can be in pretty battered shape ; that is, not very pleasant to look at. That's why it's there . G. Totman : If we did that, we'd probably need -- assuming this is your property here -- a sketch plan of where they're going to be . Like behind the back part of your building, or inside the fence . J. Snyder: Inside the fence. G. Totman: And the fence covers practically the whole property, right? J. Snyder: On the roadside . And that's where the cars -- well , they've let a bunch of trees grow up there. G. Totman: I guess what I was getting at is, is if I were going to be the inspector, where would I expect to see these cars? J. Snyder: As soon as I get the trees cut down, right up against the fence . G. Totman: On the roadside? J. Snyder. Yes. (Mr. Snyder approaches the table and hand sketches on something) . There's the gate and there's the fence and I've already cleaned this area up for cars to put in there and there's a bunch of trees in here, but that's where I want to put the cars, right down through there. V. Travis: That's inside the fence, right? G. Totman: Is this the road here? A. Scheffler: Yes. This is the building. This is his gate . Page 23 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 G. Totman: And this here's the road? A. Scheffler: Yes. G. Totman: And this is the gate. What is this right here? M. Carey: Those are trees. That's what he's going to -- G. Totman : So if he's going to put the cars there, they'll be A. Scheffler. Along the fence, inside of the fence. dust one row on the inside of the fence? Two rows? J. Snyder: Probably one row I think. M. Carey: Then once you're done taking all the stuff out of that car, then you're going to be able to move it on to Ward's place? G. Totman : Does that look like something what you're talking about? J. Snyder: Correct, G. Totman: Okay. Pass that around. G. Van Slyke: So we'll all know where he's talking about. V. Travis: Is there a motion that G. Van Slyke: I make the motion that we amend the Permit to allow him to have 15 cars parked as per the sketch on this property. M. Carey: I'll second that. V. Travis: Is there any further discussion? All in favor, say aye. (All members present indicated aye .) Opposed? The motion is carried. All set. J. Snyder: Thank you . V. Travis: You're very welcome . G. Totman : What it says here is 15 vehicles allowed to be stored in a neat and orderly fashion in a single row along the road at the present time behind the fence as per the sketch . Adjournment V. Travis: Is there any other business to come before the Board? Hearing none, is there a motion for adjournment? B. Talbot: I make the motion we adjourn. V. Travis: Is there a second? A. Scheffler: No, no, I want to say something. Page 24 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 GENERAL DISCUSSION A. Scheffler: I had some questions that had concerned me about partly from our Public Hearing that we had for Elm Tree and Fran's insistence that we really need to go through the checklist each and every time. And everything that I have read seems to indicate that, too . I didn't know if I was misinterpreting that, interpreting it my own way, and I felt that the thing to do was possible ask someone at the Department of State for an opinion, which is what I did , and I have a letter here that I would like to share with everyone . And that' s about it. Ask you to read it and consider it. V. Travis: I think we have generally worked under the assumption that one , most of us have inspected the property directly. Tonight I had not. In fact, neither of these have I . But I generally try to and with that checklist in mind , we have usually assumed that we have come here with sufficient knowledge about the property so as to make the decisions. Admittedly, when you get into a situation like we had with the Elm Tree , you can't be too careful. And you never know when something is going to come up, and it really is no great burden as we evidenced the night of the Hearing, to go down through that list in pretty rapid-fire order. Assuming that we know about the property. If we've never seen it, then it becomes more difficult. M. Carey: Did you make copies of this? A. Scheffler: Yes. M. Carey: Why don't wejust hand everybody out a copy. V. Travis: Well you're not referring specifically to the Elm Tree in this case . You're talking about A. Scheffler: No, I' not. V. Travis: whether or not as a matter of routine procedure we review the checklist when we have an application for Site Plan Review. The other thing is, about 90% of our Site Plan Reviews are done in agricultural areas, primarily because the Town of Groton , I think, is about 90% zoned Agricultural anyway. And so a lot of these issues are not as intense as, for example, when you're doing it in an M 1 or M2 area or one of the residential areas. But I guess - - is there a copy for me? A. Scheffler: Oh, I thought there was one right there. I'm sorry. The second page actually replies to the Site Plan Review, V. Travis: Why don't we read this and when we come back next month -- I don' t want to sit here and try and digest all this on the spot. A. Scheffler: No, I don't blame you . V. Travis: We can discuss it next month if that seems appropriate . A. Scheffler: I could explain to you a little bit more what my concerns were if you want to hear that now and you can think about it. X Carey: Do you have a copy of the letter you sent to the State so that we can see what you were asking them? A. Scheffler: No, I don't. He pretty much answers what I asked . M. Carey: Okay, A. Scheffler: One of the things that I have noticed about the way the ZBA does things is they always go through a list like our checklist - - they have a different checklist. They come up with a list of findings and a decision, have it printed up either the next day or the day after and have it filed in our Page 25 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 office out here , which is -- it appears to me is the way to do it -- everything I've read in the law books. And Mr. Treacy says that, too, that it should be filed within five days. It appears the decisions of this Board have been filed when the Minutes are filed because you don't write up a separate decision. G. Totman: The ZBA and the Planning Board are under different rules and regulations . They're like a judicial board. A. Scheffler: But not as far as filing your decision. V. Travis: Well, the ZBA is being asked to grant a decision is at variance with the law. G. Totman: Very different. V. Travis: Very different. We're being asked to make decisions, the question of which is, is this activity that is proposed in compliance with the law, and to the location in which it says . And they are really engaged in a form of legal adjudication that could be -- that very easily can go to the Supreme Court if the applicants, the plaintiffs, do not agree with the ZBA decision; bingo, they're straight into the court. We also do a lot of these without hearings. I mean if we really wanted to get into this thing with both feet, we could arbitrarily say that every single decision requires a Public Hearing and we do that. And for the same sorts of reasons. But, generally, our -- G. Totman: Our ordinance is about the same as most ordinances around here. V. Travis: My only point is that if we were really anal retentive about this, we could make that decision as a Board that we aren't -- to cover our hindside -- we're never going to make a decision without a Public. Hearing. We haven't chosen to do that, and I'm not advocating -- A. Scheffler: That's not what I'm advocating either. I'm just -- I feel that the statutes tell us we need to go through the checklist. We need to make a decision and have it clearly written which , if you go back ten years in some of these files, you can't figure out why a decision was made. V. Travis: Well, I think before we get very deep into that, I want to look at this -- and A. Scheffler: But you can't figure it out because it isn't clearly stated. M. Carey: I think our Minutes are better than the Town Board's Minutes. I mean, it's verbatim. V. Travis: We have verbatim Minutes and I think they're always prepared within a reasonable time. J. Fitch: I would like to make a comment on that. I do eight boards. The Town of Groton is the only Town that does not ask me to provide, within 24 hours, the actions that were taken the night before. I do an Index of Actions for every Town except this one. I assign the resolution number and I send it over by fax the next morning . A. Scheffler: It has to be filed within five days. That's when your timeline starts. G. Totman: Well, there's a lot of towns that don't do it that way. J. Pitch: I'm required to have the Minutes done within 14 days; that's in the Association of Towns book. But meanwhile, while I'm preparing the Minutes, I set up an Index of Actions. A motion was made on what parcel, what for, and to do what to, like on the exact same motion that you made tonight which could be over here first thing in the morning so when somebody comes in and says can I get my permit, you have that information . Usually George writes it right on the folder. G. Totman: I always write it there. Page 26 of 27 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 20 April 2000 A. Scheffler: That can't constitute the filing of a decision; I mean sometimes I can't even figure out G. Totman: Are you having problems? I mean, where are you coming from? We haven' t had any problems before. A. Scheffler: I'm coming from Mr. Treacy saying at a seminar we went to , if you are not being sued you are lucky. Did he or did he not say that? G. Totman: I haven't read it. A. Scheffler: At the seminar that we went to. G. Totman: I don't know. I'd have to read this more carefully. A. Scheffler, That's where I'm coming from. We're not having a problem G. Totman: I just didn't come on the Planning Board, April -- A. Scheffler. I know that. G. Totman: And I'm sorry, but V. Travis: Well, let's read this and the other thing I would suggest you do is review the Ordinance and come prepared next month having done that. Are there any other items to come before the Board? Ad.(ournment (cont 'd) G. Van Slyke: We have a motion on the floor to adjourn. V. Travis: Is it seconded? A. Scheffler. I'll second it. V. Travis: Okay. The meeting is adjourned . The meeting was adjourned at 9 p.m . Joa E. Fitch R ording Secretary (NOTE: On 4/21 , the Board Secretary filed , via fax to the Groton Town Clerk's Office, the actions that were taken at this meeting to demonstrate how the Towns of Cortlandville and Virgil, and the Village of Homer, handle the "separate decision document issue . " This Index of Actions would gladly be provided within 24 hours of each meeting if so requested. JF) y- z7-oo Page 27 of 27