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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2000-03-16 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting - Thursday , 16 March 2000 - 7 * 30 PM Members Groton Planning Board (*Absent) Others Present George Totman, Chairman Joan Fitch , Recording Secretary Monica Carey Mark Gunn, Town CEO George Van Slyke Don Scheffler, Town Councilman *Van Travis James Henry, Forney's Atty, Barbara Clark April Scheffler *Brenda Talbot G. Totman: Okay, it's 7: 30 and we've got a quorum. Approval of Minutes - 17 February 2000 G. Totman: Has everybody read the Minutes of the last meeting? M. Carey: Yes, G. Totman: Does somebody want to make a motion to approve or reject the Minutes of the last meeting? G. Van Slyke : I move we accept the Minutes of the last meeting, as long as they were. B. Clark: That was a long meeting. A. Scheffler: I'll second it. G. Totman : It says here on the Agenda the Minutes of the January meeting, but what we have here in front of us is the February meeting. G. Van Slyke: I thought those were approved . G. Totman: So we're accepting the February Minutes, A. Scheffler: Sorry about that. G. Totman: Okay, all in favor? (All Board members present indicated in the affirmative .) Carried. Other than that, we really didn't have anything to come before the Board except general meeting and discussions . Ramona & Willmore Forney, ROs - 1003 Cortland Road - TM #s 28- i -2 , 1 . 219 & 1 . 23 G. Totman : But in the meantime, Mr. Henry called and he's got a client who wants to sell a lot and I think I will turn it over to Mr. Henry to explain what he wants - - what he's looking for. J. Henry: What we've got is a little mystery. It was Will Forney and Ramona Fomey's understanding that they came in in 1993 to take care of some boundary changes. And I don't know how we want to approach this, but let me give you a packet of stuff and we can kind of work through it. M. Carey: Is there anything on record from '93 , April? Page 1 of 12 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 16 March 2000 J. Henry: That is the mystery -- that there's nothing on record. What we have here, what Fomey's have , is a copy of a letter -- they believed there was a response to this -- but unfortunately that's really the one we'd like to see. But they have a letter that was written to George Senter, and if you read the letter, you see that they were in discussions about this thing. This letter's in November to George Senter the Code Officer at that time . First, you've got that letter that George apparently had -- they had come to George about what they wanted to do. They had some questions. They were responding to those questions. And apparently something was in process. If you look at the next thing, the Building Permit, is that George issued a Building Permit in 494 for replacement of a mobile home. The next one is a copy of the old tax map, and you see there I've drawn in red the changes . There were two tax parcels there, 1 . 22 and 1 ,21 , that Fomey's own and they changed the boundaries by adding some to Tax Map #2 and adding some to Tax Map # 1 . 21 from 1 .22 . If you flip over to the next item there, it's a copy of the survey. The survey was done in October of '92 , a letter to George Senter is November '93, and then in December of '93 they did these deeds where that one tax parcel which you see on the survey map as a dotted line over on the right side there -- that's one tax parcel. They added, they made a boundary, they deeded over to Brian Forney that tax parcel and a little bit off of tax parcel 1 , 22, and they deeded parcel 1 . 22 , most of it which is labeled Parcel 2 on that survey map to another son , Kevin Forney, and then the other piece there, Parcel # 1 , the Fomeys, Will and Mona, added to their parcel because their driveway -- you can see how close their house is there and so they squared up that. Now, their understanding was that this was all either approved or didn't need subdivision approval. And right now there's a transaction going on to close on this survey Parcel #3 that's being sold. I called over here to get documentation to close and April couldn't find it, Mark couldn't find anything. There's apparently no file . So what we want to do at this point is we want to receive, to the extent necessary, we want to receive the blessing of the Planning Board for what was done in 1993 that the Forney's thought was all done properly, but that there's no documentation of at this point. M. Carey: How much road frontage do 1 and 3 have? J. Henry: One has lots. You can see on that old tax map if you look at the parcel there -- it's a 4 . 16 acre parcel before adding to it. So there's a lot of frontage there . M. Carey: What's the 113. 35 up here at the top? J. Henry: That's what added to Will and Mona's parcel. And on 3 what you had was that parcel, which was grandfathered , that was an old tax parcel that had a mobile home on it as you can see right there , was 100 foot wide . And what they did was they added another 25 , So you went from a grandfathered parcel of 100 feet to making it larger by 25 feet to 125 feet. It didn't meet your current 150, but it made it larger. And then you still kept enough frontage on Parcel #2 , the main part of what was Tax Parcel 1 .22, now called Tax Parcel 1 . 23; somewhere in there they changed the numbers on that one . M. Carey: And we have nothing to indicate that this one small lot -- A. Scheffler0 I even went through the Planning Board Minutes to see if you guys had -- G. Van Slyke: It never came before us. I don't remember ever seeing anything about this thing. M. Carey: Well , we've got a small lot here too . J. Henry: Well, it was a small lot before. G. Totman: As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong Jim, they added this #3 lot now . Fomey's added that extra where that dotted line is there, but when they bought it, it was less than 125. And that was the lot of record at that time. M. Carey: Yes, I understand that. J. Henry: Yes, that's an old lot. Page 2 of 12 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 16 March 2000 G. Totman : So they've made a non-conforming lot more conforming. So that became a lot of record . And that's the lot they want to sell . M. Carey: Because I don't think we were -- if this had come to us in '93, we wouldn't have approved this. G. Totman: Well, I'm not sure because as I understand it, and I'm not totally clear on this, they didn't deal with us. They dealt with George . But they were saying, the lot is small and we want to add to it. So they did a boundary change , and they made a non-conforming lot less non-conforming. But it was a lot of record before that. So it becomes a legality - - or whatever you want to call it as to what have you got. And if it was a non-conforming lot before 1972 , it became grandfathered. When they changed that boundary line , they made it less non-conforming, but it was still non-conforming . And now they want to sell it. Even though you might not like what happened way, way, way back then, I really believe that -- and I'm not a lawyer -- they could prove that it was a lot of record . A. Scheffler: They always got separate tax bills. G. Totman: And a lot of record can be sold, even though it's not conforming. Is that the way you read it? J. Henry: It was an existing lot, and they were trying to make it larger. As I said, they thought, when I called them, yes, that's all approved. And Will said I've got some papers around someplace and then he dug around . But all he could come up with was the survey and the letter to George Senter. He believes he got a letter back from George saying everything was okay. . G. Totman: But in the meantime, after all this happened, he got a Building Permit approved by George. J. Henry: That's right. The following year. G. Totman: It was a non-conforming lot, and you can give a Building Permit. G. Van Slyke: Did they replace this mobile home , or did -- G. Totman: But George, even if they hadn't of changed this, this Lot #3 was a lot of record. Apparently George , for whatever reason, said okay, if you want to make that lot larger, that's okay with me. It never came to us. But he made a non-conforming lot more conforming. And the next year he granted it a Building Permit for a trailer. He could have granted that Building Permit for a trailer even without that addition because it was a G. Van Slyke : I understand that. But isn't there a trailer now inbetween that trailer and where Fomey's live? J. Henry: Yes, the lots are separately owned at this point because that's what they did after they thought they had it all approved the following month , they did the deeds out to Brian and Kevin. M. Carey: You've got to have a Building Permit here. Don't we keep records of Building Permits? G. Totman : Yes, we got it here. M. Carey: Yes, but I mean the original Building Permit. Would there be any information with that? G. Totman: If it was before '85, there might be a question. M. Carey: They might have responded back to him with the original Building Permit. Wouldn't George have kept all that correspondence? Page 3 of 12 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 16 March 2000 A. Scheffler: Well, there's a correspondence file somewhere . It could be gone through . M. Carey: So basically, I mean the one lot's been approved. The small lot's already been approved, and they're just dividing off the second lot. G. Totman: They are selling a lot that is a lot of record . M. Carey: Right. G. Totman: Essentially, the way I think and correct me if I'm wrong, the way our Ordinance reads, you can sell one lot. If you own a lot, you can sell it. And that's basically what that is . We don't have any proof of whatever happened way back then . But it has been a lot of record for many years. So I think if we said no, a good lawyer would take us to task over it. J. Henry: Yes, not to mention they did the deeds in December of '93. Those parcels are separately owned by different individuals. G. Totman: I'm surprised we didn't pick it up because usually when those come through, they come through the Town Clerk's office and you look at them to see if they were legal or whatever. M. Carey: There must have been a Mylar G. Van Slyke: It wouldn't be a job that the Zoning Officer could do on his own, right? Really, he shouldn't. If you're looking even for a boundary change, you should be coming before the Planning Board. G. Totman: All depends on what town it's in. But in this Town -- G. Van Slyke: You could have done it without the Planning Board's approval? The Zoning Officer back in those days could -- G. Totman: No, no, no. I didn't say that. A. Scheffler: Maybe he was considering that it was a non-conforming lot. M. Carey: Well what I'm wondering is if he's considering the fact that it was just one lot and they were selling off one lot because the other one was already a separate tax parcel on its own, right? J. Henry: There were two tax parcels, and that is the 100-foot wide one , and they added the 25 foot, and then the rest of that you see was one . M. Gunn: Here we go! Dear Ramona and Willmore : Since you are moving boundary lines on existing properties, this does not reflect on the Subdivision Regulations. It is my opinion that you do not require any approval from the Town of Groton . This information as provided will be put in your property file . J. Henry: That's the letter that we couldn't find right there . J. Fitch: What's the date on that letter? M. Gunn: Dated 16 November 1993, J. Fitch: And who was it addressed to? M. Gunn: Ramona and Willmore Forney, G. Totman: I had supper with him tonight and that's exactly what he told me . Page 4 of 12 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 16 March 2000 M. Gunn: These were in Tax Map #28- 1 -4 . J. Henry: That's not any of the parcels. G. Totman: So basically, right now, Tax Map Parcel 28- 1 -2 . 1 they want to sell, and they want to know if they got permission to sell it or if they'll get in trouble if they sell it. Does anybody really have any problem with that? M. Carey: No. G. Van Slyke : No. G. Totman: Let the record show. J. Henry: All right. So we won't have to do - - I mean, we can do it anyway you want - - G. Totman: I think because of # 1 we're beat before we start. G. Van Slyke: Now wait a minute . Who owns this one that they're going to sell? Fomeys? Or a son? J. Henry: That's Brian, G. Van Slyke: Then Brian is the one that wants to sell. J. Henry: That's right. G. Van Slyke: Well, why can't he sell his property? I don't understand that. G. Totman : Okay. Does everybody agree that the action we take is zilch because of the former actions? M. Carey: I agree . G. Van Slyke: I agree with it. G. Totman: Okay, all in favor? (All members present indicated in the affirmative .) J. Fitch: Who made the motion? G. Totman: I did. J. Henry: Okay, now in order to keep your records straight, I did up an application in case we needed an application. Maybe -- G. Totman: We'll discard that. GENERAL MEETING & DISCUSSIONS Discussion of Comprehensive Plan Update G. Totman : Okay. We didn't have anything other than that to bring up . The question was last week, do we want to have a Planning Board meeting because there's nothing on the Agenda? And my comment to April was, yes, we probably should. In some cases, when there's nothing on the Agenda, and it's not planning or anything, and you don't have anything that you're working on , then you can Page 5 of 12 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 16 March 2000 just make an announcement that there's no meeting. But I just thought we ought to have a meeting and it's lucky we did because that came in afterwards. So does anybody else have anything they want to discuss or talk about? D. Scheffler: Well, the thing I have from the Town is I'd like to ask everybody to take one of the Comprehensive Planning books and read through them and if there's changes anybody wants to make , make note of it. G. Van Slyke: In reference to what? D. Scheffler: In reference to going through and changing the Comprehensive Plan , update it. G. Totman: I think I gave you one of those, Barb . B. Clark: I think you did, too . G. Totman : I think I did when you came on board ; I gave you a whole list of stuff like that. I don't have anything else unless somebody else does. G. Van Slyke : Well, I have something else, I think. I sat through that thing the last time around, and I just, somehow, deep down inside me it kind of aggravates me a little bit that we spent a year and a half of our time sitting in this room -- extra time that we didn't get paid for -- writing the zoning ordinances for this Town. We wrote them up with the help of the County Planning Board. They helped us write this up, and we supposedly wrote what we felt was the best plan for this Town. And all of a sudden now, it seems like no longer is this plan , these ordinances that we have written and spent that time writing, aren't worth the salt to blow it to hell. They're not worth the paper it's written on , in other words . And now everybody wants us to come back and sit down and do this all over again . The thing that I guess I'm concerned about is the fact that it's nice to sit back after the fact and say that because of Sirens and the lack of some ordinance being part of that ordinance against nude dancing and that kind of thing, to sit back and say oh , the ordinance did not fit the bill this time . It didn't do its job . Well, guess what? That wasn't the case here . In fact, we were the ones that were challenged. Everybody else around this area was in the same boat. If they had gone to Dryden and put that thing in, Dryden would have been in the boat and we'd have been sitting back laughing at those guys. Because their ordinance didn't do what it was supposed to do. Then again, you look at it and you go through this thing. I can understand the people feeling that way that well, you didn't do your job, but the thing is -- we had no idea. And nobody else in the area knew about that either. And it wasn't until that hit the fan with us that this came to light. And it became a major issue for the whole year with every town around us; boy, they were scrambling to cover their butts. So I can't really say that the ordinance is really bad . And we keep getting these things from the Zoning Board of Appeals that this thing is not right, and I want to know -- are they trying to write themselves out of a job? Now we can make this Zoning Ordinance so tight and so, you know, right down bare minimum stuff -- nail it right to the ground -- and I got some bad news for you . If we do that, we're going to find more problems from people coming in and bitching and complaining about it because we're being too strict with what you're trying to put on the people. You can try to define something so strictly that it just becomes another issue on the other side. And people are going to come and say why are you taking away our rights? You can over- legislate something is what I'm trying to tell you . And people aren't going to take that on the other side. So I think before we jump all over this Ordinance, and I've got to make one more comment before I finish up here - - I think it's kind of tough when the lawyer of the Town had the opportunity before he ever presented our Ordinance before the Board, had the opportunity to look it over and legally take it and then throw it out as a piece of crap - - after he had it presented before the Board and they approved it. Now, all of a sudden it's not worth the paper it's printed on . Now what is that? I just can't understand that. And we spent that time, and Monica will attest to it, we spent the time and those lawyers over there said it wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Hey, wait a minute -- you're the Page 6 of 12 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 16 March 2000 guys who supposedly checked it all over to see the legality of the thing and to present it before the Board . And we gave them the thing . They had the opportunity to look it all over and check it for legality. What is this? Are they really, truly representing us? Or are they just bleeding us for the money? D. Scheffler: I don't think they were bleeding us for the money. G. Van Slyke : Well, you know, you got to somehow think what's happening here. D. Scheffler: Well, it seems like every month there's something from the ZBA. There's a wording problem, a little of this and a little of that. All we're asking is maybe times change . People change . The houses are closer together now. Maybe it's time to go through it and look things over and see if we can head some things off ahead of time. Maybe we want to loosen some things up . Maybe you want to tighten someplace else . G. Van Slyke : I don't know. I just think all of a sudden this instrument becomes the whipping boy for everybody who's got a problem. You know what I mean? That's just the way it feels to me. And I think that I just did this because I felt I had to defend that year and a half of work. D . Scheffler: I understand, it's a lot of work. G. Van Slyke: And, you know, to say to us go back and go through the whole thing over and over again, we'll never get it right. You'll never get it perfect. Be Clark: I would think that if there's a certain area where there's a problem in this , then that should be pointed out; not that the Planning Board should have to go through and pick it apart. I would think if the Zoning Board has a problem with it, they should go through and highlight where the problems are and suggest some resolution to it. M. Carey: The Zoning Board should come up with something and meet with our Board so we can discuss where they seem to think the problems are . D . Scheffler: I think right at this point what Glenn is saying is he wants all three boards to go through it and if somebody has a problem, just make a note of it. If there's something you don't like, or there's something you think maybe needs improvement, or loosen it up -- I don't like laws either. But if we go through it, then maybe we can all sit down and get together some night and say look, what do you people want? What do you think we should do? Maybe nothing will happen. G. Van Slyke : See, I guess that was my concern D . Scheffler: Don't take it personal. G. Totman: You have to . You have to defend your name when it's used in vain ; don't give me that crap . G. Van Slyke: What I'm saying is -- I hate to think about it being thrown back in our lap to do the whole thing. Okay, if it's going to be a joint venture by all parties, okay that's fine and dandy with me. That's okay. But to say okay, now you didn't do your job right this time, so were going to put you back; it's just like telling a kid you didn't do the job right this time, so you put him in the corner and say you're going to sit there and do this until you get this thing right. G. Totman : I think what you also have to look at is what do the people in the community want? Not just one or two people -- and that's what' s happening. I think you've got to look at not trying to reinvent the wheel - - look at what's happening in the other towns . I know you don't like to hear what other towns are doing. But other towns all over the State of New York have zoning ordinances. Ours is going to get to be the strictest around . Do we really want to stop development and stop everything that other towns are allowing? I mean, I think you've got to look at all those things . And you haven't once yet listened to the Planning Board . You listen to two people . Period . I didn't know he was going Page 7 of 12 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 16 March 2000 to say anything tonight, and I elected not to say anything tonight, but I think George is exactly right. I think you've got to remember that you're representing the people and not just a certain few. To be very honest with you , I have heard -- because of the nature of what I do -- a lot from other people . I'll tell you just for an example, Henry Slater from the Town of Dryden says, can't you control anything over there? What the hell are you trying to do over there? Stop everything? And he's been there for years. He doesn't understand what we're doing. I said don't tell me; I don't either. And the other towns around us have those same rules that we had that we just changed . The Planning Board worked on it, like he said, for many, many years. And all of a sudden, you have two people come on who criticize the members who've been here for years, and nobody even questioned the fact should we take it back to the Planning Board . I'll tell you what usually happens in most towns, and the Town Board has a rule that you should go to seminars and get training. If you went to those training sessions -- and it's been my thing over the years that the wrong people go to them -- because I think all town board members should go, and not just Groton, but Lansing, Dryden, Cortlandville , wherever. They should hear what those people are saying. And basically, it's always been this case in the Town of Groton. If you want to make a change , or somebody suggested a change, they send it back to the Planning Board for their suggestions, and then they have 30 days to react. If they don't, then the Town Board does whatever they want to do . That was done in the fall of this past year. And the Planning Board reacted and gave them their suggestion. That suggestion was turned down cold and not even thought about. Taken on by the newest member of the Planning Board and the Code Enforcement Officer which is unheard of in any other town, and the Planning Board wasn't even considered . That's where he's coming from. G. Van Slyke: That's not necessarily where I'm coming from. Where I'm coming from is, all of a sudden this Code that we have here is under attack. It's a thing that has made all of the problems in the Town. And it hasn't made all of the problems in the Town . G. Totman : To me, it's like a police officer who doesn't like the speed limit, so he gets it changed . I'm going to quit right there . I don't want to get into an argument over it. In my 33 years of being on the Planning Board, it's the first time in all the schooling I've ever been to, this is against every rule, everything I've ever learned about in seminars. It almost says why do you go to a seminar when you have a Town Board who doesn't listen to the Planning Board? Period , Period. They didn't even consult the Planning Board on that change . And I wasn't even asked until it was all done . M. Carey: There should have been discussion brought up about what we brought up last month at the Planning Board meeting. And there was no discussion between the Board members. I agree ; some of them are new, but you still should have had some discussion on that. G. Totman : Well, it was a pre-gone conclusion. M. Carey: Well, I know, but -- G. Van Slyke: I'm not getting into this specific thing with the height thing. You remember Mark; I sat here too and you know I questioned it. And one of the things I asked at the last meeting -- I asked it of Ellard Sovocool, I guess -- I asked well , did the Town consider the different areas where this might come into effect? Well, yes they had and all of that. D. Schefflev We discussed that. G. Van Slyke: So I thought that's probably where you could make some differentiation as far as the height. If I'm out and I've got a hundred acres around me and I want to put something taller than 35 feet up, then I should be able to do that. G. Totman: Well, the thing of it is -- we allow certain things in a rural area like construction things, or like D & L Trucking has got over in Lansing -- what do you call that business? -- and we allow those in rural areas, but we won't allow them to build a building to put them in under this new Ordinance . Page 8 of 12 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 16 March 2000 M. Gunn: Sure we will. G. Totman: The Ordinance says 20 feet. M. Gunn: There's a gentlemen over in McLean who just parked a full tractor trailer under a roof that's twenty feet. And he's got a full -- G. Totman: But I heard at the meeting, well if they want to do something different, then they go to the ZBA. Well, that's not what the ZBA's for. The ZBA is for hardship cases. The ZBA isn't to change the Ordinance . That's against the State Law , And I heard that at the meeting before. Everybody was saying we can go to the ZBA. See, if you go to the State people and go to seminars, that' s not what the ZBA is for. D . Scheffler: We don't want to make anything so hard that somebody can't do it. But I think and it's my opinion on it -- when it gets to a point, somebody should be looking at it so you don't have a 35-foot building right in front of somebody's window. G. Totman: Don, it's been that way since 1972 , and it's that way in every other town, and nobody's having a problem. Who is having the problem, except Mark? D . Scheffler: We don't want to wait until we have a problem . G. Totman: Okay. You're the one who has to run for election. I don' t. Has anybody else got anything to bring before the Board? G. Van Slyke : Well, I guess I said my piece . I don't know. M. Carey. Well, I have to kind of agree with George. I mean we spent a lot of time on this Ordinance and it's being shot down every time we turn a corner. And some of us have been on this Board for years and it's just like we're being shot down for everything we've done over the years. I mean, if you don't want a Planning Board, then why don't you just say it and dissolve our Board? D. Scheffler: We won't say that. If you want to go back to just the last example we had, with a 12- foot peak height on a building, nobody's doing anything in Groton -- G. Totman: That's not the case. They weren't going by that until Mark came along. They were not going by that. D. Scheffler: The ZBA made the decision though . G. Totman: Because he took it to them. M. Gunn: You went by it in '93 . This Planning Board went by that 12 -foot height to the peak in '93 with David Brown . I got the documentation -- G. Totman: You might have. I saw you bring that up there, but we'vee had a lot of buildings built since '93 . And they were over that, Mark. You know that. And the Code Enforcement Officer passed them. M. Gunn: The whole thing A. Scheffler: They went by sidewall. M. Gunn: Yes, the whole thing that brought this whole thing on -- you keep putting this on my shoulders, George -- G. Totman: You're the one that brought it up. Page 9 of 12 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 16 March 2000 M. Gunn: He came in and he wanted an application approved for 14-foot sidewall, which is above and beyond what we were misinterpreting the Code for - - G. Totman: It isn't just one person -- there's been a lot of them going to the ZBA. M. Gunn: That's what kicked the first -- G. Totman: I've lived in Groton for almost 50 years. We've had an Ordinance since 1972 , And the people have accepted our Ordinance and we've never had a problem until this past year. And I just can't accept that kind of reasoning, I'm sorry. I live here too. G. Van Slyke: I can't seem to find it in all these papers because I'm getting overwhelmed with papers, but the Zoning Board of Appeals has sent us a letter stating that these are the things they would like us to check on and this kind of thing. So , you know, if that's the kind of thing the Town Board wants us to do, and it's going to be a joint venture , then I have no qualms about that. But I think that where I would back off is if we would spend extra time without extra pay to rewrite this whole thing. It would just be more than I could take at this point. M. Carey: Well, George and I put in a lot of time on Sirens last year. I took time off from work and I wasn't reimbursed by the Town. There were several meetings we had with the lawyer, and I agree with George -- G. Totman: And then you get slapped in the face. M. Carey: Yes, G. Totman: It's really discouraging. G. Van Slyke : So if it's going to be a joint venture , then that's fine. M. Carey: Right. D. Scheffler: We'll get everybody's input and see what we can come up with to maybe just avoid some of this little stuff. And the big stuff - - nobody blames anybody for Sirens. I don't. It could happen, like you said, in any town in New York State, just about. And it happened with us . But if we can prevent another one by reading through it and somebody saying hey, this is what's happening over here ; what about us? It might not be a bad idea. G. Van Slyke: Okay, M. Gunn: In the same sense -- not to cut you off, George -- but there's other towns that have more strict things than we've got. Dryden, for instance , doesn't allow mobile homes without horizontal siding on it. It's got to be a peak shingled roof with horizontal vinyl siding. M. Carey: But on the other hand, Groton has always been the poorer Town. We're more on the outskirts. We don't get the growth that Dryden, Lansing, Newfield , and Trumansburg get. M. Gunn: But according to our census, we're getting that. M. Carey: But how many are stick-built homes? We've got to consider the people -- somebody like me. A single person who's got one income coming in -- I would like a decent place to live. I would like to have property, and to be able to do some stuff around my property. Are we going to restrict people like me that can't afford to have a $200,000 home? To me, we might as well be a Communist town if we're going to start restricting people on what they can build. Not everybody can afford a big fancy home in the Town of Groton . I sure can't. And I want my own place . And I don't feel that I should have to live in some dinky little apartment because I can't afford my own place with some land to be able to do what I'd like to do on my land -- have a garden, put some cows out there and stuff. We've got to look at the type of people we have in the Town of Groton. We don't have the people like Page 10 of 12 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 16 March 2000 Lansing. Look at those homes over there. There are very few of those type of homes in the Town of Groton . M. Gunn: That was the exact reasoning for me saying that the majority of our people are in single-wide , double-wide , small ranch homes that a 35-foot tall structure will look out of place and block those people that don't have the money for a larger home, block their view and make their property look worse compared to the person who does have the $200,000 house . M. Carey: I'm just saying we have to look at the fact that, to me, Groton is a little bit poorer than the area towns around us. And we need to take into consideration that there are people like me that are single and would like to be able to own a home . I couldn't own a home in Lansing; I couldn't own a home in Dryden. Because I could never pay the taxes. M. Gunn: The fact that people want to move in here and own a home M. Carey: We're not encouraging growth in the Town M. Gunn: Well, we're not discouraging it. M. Carey: But we will if we keep on putting the laws so tight. G. Totman: You are certainly discouraging it. Just from what I hear around the other towns , Mark. I'm sorry. In fact I had two people call me today and want to know what's going on over here . M. Gunn: Tell them to call me . Tell them not to call you in Lansing. G. Totman : They call me because I live in the Town of Groton . They are saying why, what's going on over there? I said don't ask me. They're not recognizing me anymore . I spent 30 years on the Planning Board and they won't even listen to me. Don' t even talk to me. I'm sorry, but that's what people are thinking. M. Gunn: That's okay. G. Totman: And Groton is not growing. Groton is one of the lowest growth towns in the County. I don't know where you got that other -- dollarwise . I'm talking about-- M. Gunn: We had a woman from Tompkins County census come inhere -- the last assessment office -- came in here to the last Board meeting . Did she or did she not say how huge Groton is getting, dollarwise . G. Totman: What she said was -- because of the slow growth the haven't -- see, when you build a new house , you get evaluated around the area. That's how they do their assessment. And because Groton hasn't had that growth over the years, they haven't been re-assessed like other towns have because they've been having more growth going. And so one of the reasons that Groton's assessment - - my assessment went up 30% -- and one of the reasons for that is they haven't been re-assessed over the years like the other towns because of the slow growth . This is what they're telling me from the assessment bureau, and that's why we got the largest raise in assessment in the Town of Groton . And the reason they gave me was because of the slow growth , they haven't been able to re-evaluate the areas. Like I said to them, I couldn't probably build a new house for what you assessed me for, but I also couldn't sell it for what you re-assessed me for. And he said there's been one house sold in your area in the last five years that would be equal to yours. And it was a newer home and it's better than my house . It's the only one in the area that's been sold , so they had to use that to re-evaluate my house and my house was comparable . So it went up 30% . But what I'm saying is, I'm not sure where she was coming from. I was here that night. Because that's not what they're telling me at the County Board on Planning, because he made the comment went he talked to the Government Operations Committee, he says we're going to hit George quite high because we haven't been able to evaluate the Town of Groton over the years because they haven't had the growth . Page 11 of 12 (T) Groton Planning Board Minutes/Transcript of Regular Meeting 16 March 2000 M. Carey: Well, they took care of us this year. G. Totman: If you look at your building permits, do you know what the total value was for last year in building permits? Like 1 million or 2 million. Total value of estimated construction? A. Scheffler: I don't know. M. Gunn: It was a lot more than last year and the previous year. G. Totman: Was it more than two? M. Gunn: Million? G. Totman: Yes, M. Gunn: In the Town of Groton? G. Totman: Yes. M. Gunn: No. A. Scheffler: Do you mean construction costs? G. Totman: Yes, A. Scheffler: Oh, I don't know. We didn't add up construction value . G. Totman: That's what they were saying. Just for an example, in the town right next to us, there's was 12 million. I'm not sure what Dryden's was . But that's where they were telling me they had the problem because over the years they didn't have anything to go by. So this year they had to come in and do the whole County. And he told me that Groton took the biggest hit because they just Well, is there anybody else who wants to bring anything up? Adjournment M. Carey: I move we adjourn. G. Van Slyke: Second , G. Totman: Adjourned . The meeting was adjourned at 8:20 p.m. JQ5W E. Fitch Recording Secretary 4/3 /00 Page 12 of 12