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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1999-11-18 TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Meeting Minutes/Transcript - Thursday, 18 November 1999 Members, Groton Planning Board (*Absent) Others Present George Totman, Chairman Joan Fitch, Recording Secretary *Monica Carey Mark Gunn, Town CEO George Van Slyke Glen Morey, Supvervisor-Elect Sheldon Clark Tyke Randall, Councilman-Elect Van Travis John Beck, Applicant The meeting was called to order at 7:34 p.m. by Chairman George Totman. G. Totman: We've got a lot of reading material to do, but why don't we call the meeting to order. John Beck, RO - 422 Champlin Road - TM # 28- 1 -59. 12 - Subdivision G. Totman : We've got somebody here tonight that's not on the Agenda, so I think probably we should take care of that first. Then we can go into what's on the Agenda. This character that's sitting over here J. Beck: Yes . Do you know about it do you, George? Did they tell you about it? G. Totman : Yes, they did . J. Beck: Oh, well it's not my fault. G. Totman: It's not your fault? J. Beck: No . G. Totman : Well , I'm not going to agree with you on that. But, back in 1992 , John Beck -- this is John Beck over here -- came in and got a subdivision approved. And we always approve subdivisions contingent upon them getting a survey and bringing it in , having the Chairman of the Planning Board sign it, and then they take it down and file it with the County Clerk. So would you tell us your problems? J. Beck: I don't have no problem. You have the problem. That's the letter I got. G. Totman: We got that. J. Beck: Oh , you got that? Okay. Well here's the map I had done, and you got a copy. I know you got a copy down here . I don't know. G. Totman: This map here? Yes, we got a copy of it. J. Beck: That's right. And all this here I was not allowed to sell a piece of property until I had this all done . And I sold that piece of property there, and it was approved. So I can't see where I did anything wrong. G. Totman: Don't give me this -- hold that. What I was saying, John, was -- now I don't have the Minutes here I don't think -- maybe I do. You had it surveyed? J. Beck: Right, Page 1 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 G. Totman: And did you bring the survey back into the Town Board to have it signed and stamped by the Chairman of the Planning Board? J. Beck: I don't know. They got it. And I sold a building lot -- and everything had to be approved before I could even sell a lot. G. Totman: Then, did you file it with the County Clerk? J. Beck: I don't know. I don't know, George . G. Totman: Well, apparently you didn't -- J. Beck: I don't see why I'm supposed to do anything for it. I mean, I went through the process. I gave you the money. G. Totman: You got it approved by the Planning Board, J. Heck: Yes. G. Totman: Let me see your copy of this. J. Beck: People don't make things clear or something because I was not allowed to sell a piece of property until I had this all done . G. Totman: That's right. J. Beck: I sold a piece of property, so it musta been all approved because otherwise I couldn't even sell a piece of property unless it was approved. G. Totman: Well, it depends on who your lawyer is . Some lawyers J. Beck: No, no . I mean it's not that. G. Totman: See , there's nothing here , John , that shows where you came back in and brought the survey in and had it signed and stamped by the Chairman of the Planning Board , J. Beck: Well, I don't know about that, George . I don't know why I'm supposed to do all this, you don't make things clear. G. Totman: A lot of these Board members have been here for quite awhile, and I think they can attest that every time we do this, we tell the applicant that we passed it and it becomes official when you bring this back in and have it signed and have it filed in the County Planning Office . Is that correct? We do it with everybody. J. Beck: But I was not allowed to sell one piece of property until that was done, so how could I sell a piece of property? G. Totman : Well, you can sell it. J. Beck: No, no, it wouldn't have been approved or nothing. I wouldn't have been able to sell the property. G. Totman: John, it wasn't approved by the Town, it was approved -- let me put it this way. Some towns don't have subdivision rules and regulations. So you can sell land. Fact is, even in the Town of Groton you can sell one lot without approval. J. Beck: Well I know. I sold a couple without approval. I mean I was allowed to. Page 2 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 G. Totman: Yes, I know that. J. Beck: That's where I could sell one piece of property without having approval . G. Totman: Some towns don't have subdivision approval, so then you can sell up to five lots without approval . Once you get the fifth lot on a tax parcel, then it becomes a State realty subdivision. But always we tell the people, if we approve this, you have to bring it in and have it signed -- so basically, we've got to re-approve this and actually, John, the Ordinance says after 180 days if you haven't filed it, it becomes null and void . J. Beck: Well I don't think there's nothing in there that's my fault, period , because first of all, I was not allowed to sell one piece of property off of that until I had it approved and everything. And it's approved ; I got it approved to sell a piece of property. That's all I know. I sold a piece of property. And I figured I had -- and also I must have a subdivision then. If I could even fudge it, I -- I was against the law to even sell one piece. I was allowed to sell that one piece of property six years ago . Now you say I don't have it. G. Totman: All I'm telling you, John, is J. Beck: Well I think there's something screwed up , George . And I don't think it's my fault. I got to pay taxes on that damn property. I should be able to sell . I went through all this damn -- spent all this money and everything and all you want is money, money, money. Ain't that right, Sheldon? You know why. You sold your property. The taxes were killing you . Now you can't even sell the damn stuff. G. Totman: All I'm trying to tell you , John, is J. Beck: What? You can run it through , George. I'm not giving no money to run it through . You can just work on that, just like we were last time . I sold a piece of property . G. Totmam The Planning Board is an advisory Board to the Town Board, and once the rules and regulations are put in place , we have to follow them. And we approve something like this and it becomes official when you bring this back in and give it to the Planning Board for a signature. And then you got to file it -- see, if you don't file it - - J. Beck: I don't know, George. I brought it back down . I brought a copy down . You got a bunch of copies there . G. Totman : Well that was the copy we had , but there's no official signature - - J. Beck: Well I don't know -- that's why I brought it back. How come that wasn' t done then? G. Totman: What did you file with the County Clerk? J. Beck: I don't know. I sure - - G. Totman : Obviously you didn't or it would have J. Beck: Well, I don't know. I don't know what the hell I'm supposed to do. G. Totman : Well, it would have -- John, -- J. Beck: You got so damn many laws an ordinary person don't know what the hell to do . G. Totman: If you had of, it would have shown up on the tax maps. J. Beck: Well, first of all , how could I even sell one lot then? I had no right to even sell one lot out of that unless it was approved . Page 3 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 G. Totman : Well, you can sell a lot. But -- J. Beck: Well that's why I went through all this thing, George G. Totman : I understand . J. Beck: So I could sell one lot. It was against the law to even sell one lot without getting that approved, so how could I sell one lot? That's what I don't understand . G. Totman: You can sell one lot without a subdivision. J. Beck: No, no, no, no . This was a bigger piece of land . This is my subdivision . It was bigger. I couldn't sell a piece of land until I had that subdivision . There was more land here . It was already sold out. That' s just a percentage of the land that's left. I sure didn't do nothing wrong. G. Totman: You didn't do nothing wrong. You just didn't follow through on what you were supposed to do. J. Beck: Well, I -- I don't understand why I don't have it though then. Because I was not allowed to sell one piece of property -- G. Totman: I see no reason why we can't re-approve it, but -- J. Beck: That's right. No problem, George . That's right. G. Totman: But you -- in order to make it official , you have to file it with the County Clerk and have it show up on the tax map . And I'll tell you why a lot of people don't do it, and probably it's the reason you didn't do it. J. Beck: I thought it was done , George . G. Totman: Because if you filed it with the County, then they would assess you for each individual lot. J. Beck: Well I don't know that, George. I never had the experience . G. Totman: But it would make your taxes go up , so a lot of people don't file them. J. Beck: Taxes go higher. Jesus Christ, you can't pay them now. G. Totman: I know, but J. Beck: No wonder everybody wants to leave New York State . That's no G. Totman : Anybody got anything on this? J. Beck: What do you think, Sheldon? You know the story. I mean really, what did I do wrong? S. Clark: Let's just put it through . J. Beck: Put it through . Right. V. Travis: Put it through and take it down to the County Clerk's Office, J. Beck: There's no problem. S. Clark: Let's do it. Page 4 of 22 1/ r Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 J. Beck: It's already really been -- should have been run through . G. Van Slyke: Now when you came in to us for the subdivision, okay, now you're planning on selling everything, right, of the whole parcel? G. Totman: If he could . G. Van Slyke : If you could, right. Is that why you decided to divide it up the way you did? J. Beck: I'll sell it any way I can . G. Van Slyke: Right, J. Beck: It's easier to sell a piece than it is everything. S. Clark: So what do we need, George? Do we need to approve this one and get it on the tax map, right? G. Totman: Well, I think to be legal -- see the Ordinance reads that if it's not filed within 180 days, it's null and void , so then you have to re-apply. If you re-apply, technically you're supposed to pay for another fee . It's the same subdivision and we approved it once. The line hasn't changed so there's no reason not to basically approve it again . If you follow the Subdivision Ordinance to the "tee" -- and I'm not saying we should or shouldn't -- don't get me wrong -- then it becomes a new one . I guess my feeling is, if it's not illegal according to the rules and regulations of the attorneys, and I'm not an attorney, I see nothing wrong with us reaffirming that we had passed this once , and that if John wants to re-enact this, he brings it back into April to have it stamped. And then he files it with the County Clerk, and then he can sell his lot. He's put on a grandstand here for us -- J. Beck: Now, now, George, I just didn't understand -- six years ago I didn't understand that. You know, I don't know all this paperwork here -- G. Totman: Does that make sense to everybody? You know where the lot is? V. Travis: Do I know where the lot is? G. Totman : Yes, V. Travis: No . G. Totman: It's on the corner of Davis Road and LaFayette Road , right across the road from Louie Barber's house. V. Travis: Okay. I know where that is. J. Beck: What it is, is it's going to be two lots. One guy wants a lot, so . G. Totman: One of these is yours, right? M. Gunn: Yes, I guess so. I had two of them. One's all right. G. Totman: I got one here . You had two of them? M. Gunn: Yes. G. Totman : Sorry about that. J. Beck: There's nothing complicated . I'm not trying to screw anybody or nothing. Page 5 of 22 I� Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 G. Totman: No, you just didn't listen to us when you were in the first time . J. Beck: Well, you don't make things plain enough . You should help a person here , George. G. Totman: Well, listen to me. Now that you've spouted off, you're the only person that's come back with this problem since I've been on the Planning Board . J. Beck: Well, I thought everything was done , George . S. Clark: How many years? G. Totman: Thirty years. J. Beck: I thought everything was done , you know, once I got the paper back. G. Totman: But I'm telling you -- for 30 years I've been on the Planning Board -- J. Beck: But I was not allowed to sell one lot until it was all - - G. Totman : But, anyway, does anybody want to make a comment, make a motion, or give some advice , or whatever. S. Clark: Let's do it. V. Travis: I'll second it. G. Totman: Sheldon moved and you seconded .it that we re-approve the subdivision as it was presented, and it will become valid once he brings it back in to have April stamp it with my signature on it. And then he's got to file it with the County Clerk. See , once you file it with the County Clerk, then a receipt comes back here, and then you're out of trouble . J. Beck: All right, George . So when do I come down and do this now? G. Totman : Tomorrow, J. Beck: Tomorrow. I'll be down tomorrow then. J. Fitch: You need to vote . G. Totman: Yes. You come down tomorrow and April will take care of it. I'll leave her a note . All in favor? (All members present signified "aye .") Okay. J. Beck: Put it in writing, George. Explain it a little more. I thought it was all done because I had Jim handle it, you know. Maybe the lawyer should have handled it a little more . G. Totman: Basically, I'll tell you what. J. Beck: I don't understand paperwork. G. Totman: Whoever the lawyer was on that lot you sold should have checked to make sure it was done . J. Beck: He should have made sure. He's getting a little old you know. That was really the lawyer's job to make sure I had everything. Page 6 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 G. Totman : I know from the job that I do I constantly get calls from lawyers saying is this a legal - - I know Jim Henry here in Groton does it constantly. He checks before for his clients -- is this a legal transaction. And most all lawyers do that today. And if he'd have done that, he'd of found out. J. Beck: I know, it should have been done. G. Totman : So you bring this in tomorrow. J. Beck: Okay. I'll be in tomorrow, George . Thank you all. Discussion w/Mark Gunn, CEO re Board's Resolution Pertaining to Accessory Building Height Requirements G. Totman: Why don't we pause for a minute for everybody to read all of this stuff that Mark has given us. (Everyone reads.) G. Van Slyke: Mark, I've got a question for you I guess. M. Gunn: Yes sir. G. Van Slyke : Okay. You're saying that when you look at garages -- I think when we were looking at this before and we put the proposition in, we were talking total height of the adjacent building. Now, in the Board Minutes here, you're saying that you have 10-foot walls on your garage, and the peak is 27 feet. M. Gunn: Yes. G. Van Slyke: Okay. And you mentioned once before, whether it's in the Minutes here, or in your draft to us, that you've been looking at garages with 12-foot walls . I'm wondering, and I haven't really done the math or anything, but I was wondering what the peak would be for a 12-foot wall. How high would that go? M. Gunn: That's where there's a misinterpretation. My peak of my roof is more like 17, not 27, and I have 10-foot height sidewalls. And that's with a 4 : 12 pitch which is quite shallow. G. Van Slyke : Okay. I'm trying to visualize this thing. Okay, you've got 10-foot walls, but you only have what, a 4 -- M. Gunn: It's a 4: 12 pitch truss. G. Van Slyke : Four/twelve pitch . M. Gunn: Right. That means for every foot it rises four inches. G. Van Slyke: Yes, okay. M. Gunn: And it's a 30-foot bottom chord truss, so the center of that would be 15 feet. So if you go 15 feet over, and for every foot you rise 4 inches, it's about 5 feet. G. Totman: Yes, look. By doing it that way it means you can't have a second story in your garage . V. Travis: That's right. G. Totman : It means that you can't have a lot of things that people like to have. Let me, if I may, Mark, and I don't want to get into a confrontation . M. Gunn: No, that's okay. Go ahead. Page 7 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 G. Totman: I want to totally disagree with you , okay? Because from my experience, the Zoning Officer doesn't set the rules and regulations . Like a cop doesn't set the speed limit; he goes out and enforces what people do. I just wanted to make it clear where I'm coming from, and I think I've got some experience in that. If you build a house , and you put a garage on the side of the house , many times the peak of the garage -- and this is the way the Planning Board discussed it at the time -- many times the peak of the garage is the same as the peak of the house . They might even have apartments over it. They might even have a storage or call it their attic over the garage, or whatever. It could be to 35 feet. We have rules on how close they can get to the side yard lines and, very honestly, the other towns I've checked into have the same rules and regulations that we , as the Planning Board, presented to the Town Board. It wasn't something that we made up . M. Gunn: No. I understand that. G. Totman: And we don't have no problems with that. I've been doing this for 12 years and I haven't had a bit of problem with what we presented. I don't have the problems that you're talking about in here. Because sometimes people like to put an apartment over a garage . It's perfectly legal. M. Gunn: Right. G. Totman: And if we tell them they can't have the 35 feet -- how you figure the 35 -- from the average grade level, 35 feet to the midpoint of the roof, which actually sometimes could be more than 35 feet. But it's that way in the other towns around us. And there not having a problem. So I really don't know what your problem is. M. Gunn: Well, it's not saying that they can't. What it's doing is allowing our Town to know what's happening in these large structures. For instance, down on Locke Road there's a very large garage down there . The guy was in there for doggone near four years before anybody knew he had a business because it's such a large garage . And that's an accident waiting to happen. Number One , fire and EMS had no idea there was a business down there. The Town had no idea there was a business down there . I'm not saying that they can't - - I mean they can come in here and get an approval by the ZBA just like we've had in the past where somebody can come in and if they want 14 foot, 20-foot sidewalls, whatever, they can go for the ZBA. But in the last year and a half since I've been here, that is the only request for anything above 12 foot. So to give up any kind of control we have over any kind of structure or building in this Town , and just cough up any kind of limitations I think is biting ourselves in the butt. Like I said, I'll tell you right now, the guy that has the variance approval for the sidewalls on Old Peruville Road has made mention where there's nothing that I can do , that someday he plans to live in there . And I can tell you, that structure's not going to be made today to be turned into a house. G. Totman: Then he doesn't get a permit to do it. At that particular point, he's got to bring it up to Code . M. Gunn: Right. But if he decides he wants to put an apartment G. Totman : But Mark, this is going on in every other town around us. I don' t know why you think Groton is so different. M. Gunn: With the 12 -foot limitation right now on a sidewall, it's been working in this Town for years. It's a good height. It's a commercial structure. Agricultural buildings can already go high, you know, real high . I think it's asking for trouble . G. Totman: Well, the Planning Board can do what they want to do, but I personally have no problem -- I don't see any -- we have a garage in McLean that had a permit granted by the Groton Zoning Officer that is much bigger than you would allow. And we have no problems with it. And we've had, all these years, no problems with that wall into you came on board . And I just plainly don't agree with you . And like I said , the fact is, for example , the Town of Lansing didn't even have zoning in 75% of the Town for the last 30 years; they just had it a year ago . I've been doing building permits over Page 8 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 there, many of them, 14- 15 million dollars a year worth of them, and we don't have the problems that you're talking about. We just don't have them. And so, with that, I just can't agree with you . M. Gunn: You've got to look at Lansing as a whole . G. Totman: No, I'm looking at towns period. Not just Lansing, but Groton, Dryden, wherever. M. Gunn: In the surrounding areas, what's your average home that goes in -- as Lansing -- just pick Lansing. What's the average home that goes in in Lansing, meaning sizewise , what is the home? G. Totman: Oh, gosh, I'd have to look it up . M. Gunn: In Lansing, it's got to be two , possibly close to three stories. G. Totman: Well, there's no three-story homes. But out in the part that wasn't really zoned, it was mostly modular homes, regular stick-built homes. What you're talking about is what's done by East Shore Drive by that area there . That's in the southern part of Lansing. But in the part that really wasn't zoned until last year, it was practically the same as Groton. M. Gunn: The majority of the homes I have going in here are single-wide and double-wide mobile homes. And I'm trying to look out for the best interests and, like I said , it still allows anybody to come in and get a variance . G. Totman : Let me explain to the Board about that variance bit, because someday the State's going to come down on this variance thing because that's what they're doing. Variances are not made to change the Ordinance . Variances are made to give somebody a break if there's a hardship and it's not self-created . And if you've been to any of the school's seminars on planning and zoning, there's a very strong feeling coming down from the State saying that the Zoning Board of Appeals can kill any good ordinance by giving variances. And I read the Town Board Minutes, and I read Dan Carey's remarks, well if they want something different, they go get a variance . That's not what the variances are for. Variances are for a hardship or something that happened other than the homeowner' s fault or doing. And if they're really truly doing their job -- and in fact I 've set down twice in the past month and talked to Lyle Raymond and he understands that. And he feels that he would rather have it the way we're explaining it so that they're not being asked to change the Ordinance . By reading the Town Board Minutes, the Town Board is saying well , if you don't like what we put in the Ordinance , just go to the ZBA and they'll change it for you . That's not the way it's supposed to work. It just isn't. M. Gunn: But in any good union or anything, if there's give and take , if there's a problem in a union or a company has a problem and there contract's up, you never give back the ground you have . And you gotta just look at the statistics. Look at the building permits that have been handed out. There has been nobody requesting more than 12 feet. So if there's been nobody requesting more than 12-foot for - - G. Totman : But they've got more than 12 feet. The example I gave you in McLean. How big is that building? And George granted that. M. Gunn: I can't help what George did. The last variance that was granted was this guy down on Old Peruville Road right at the "T" -- he came in for a variance because he wanted -- it was a two- story garage next to his house . I had to inspect the garage just as I came in here and took the job . Why, all of a sudden was that garage picked out and the ZBA didn't do anything about the Ordinance then with it reading the same as it does now? Do you see my point? He went and got a variance for this two-story garage that he wanted . Nothing was said about the Ordinance being as screwed up as it is for the height limitation at that point. This is a year later, and now all of a sudden it's picked out. G. Totman: Apparently, and it's probably wrong, but apparently nobody was looking at the height limitation up until you came . M. Gunn: I had nothing to do with that. Page 9 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 G. Totman: Well, you're looking at it. But what I'm saying is apparently nobody did because I know garages went up all over and nobody's complained about them. But garages have been going up as garages. If you really want to get technical, and you read the Ordinance the way it is, you can't even give a permit for a garage period, without the height limit. M. Gunn: Becker. Carl Becker. G. Totman: Okay. In our Ordinance, and this is one of the things that you want to look at, in our Ordinance it says if it's not listed, it's not allowed . There are several cases in our Ordinance, in the definitions and stuff like that, that they talk about accessory buildings and stuff like that. But in the listings of what's allowed in certain zones and sections, accessory buildings are not listed . So technically, if you really want to get that technical, you shouldn't give a permit for a garage anyway. I'm not saying you shouldn't, don't get me wrong. M. Gunn: I'm not getting any technical G. Totman: Yes you are . Yes you are, Mark. M. Gunn: I called you the other night and I said there's a couple that called me on the Little- Stevens Road out there, just outside the Town before you get to that bridge -- somebody has put one of these large garages in. Okay? G. Totman: That's right. M. Gunn: And I haven't seen the garage; I don't know how big this garage is, but McLean's a very small town, hamlet, and somebody is going to buy the property that has four tractor trailers. And, just like our conversation on the phone , you and I know the people that live on that street are not going to be happy with that. G. Totman: I know, but it's allowed in that area, Mark. That's why I don't understand where you're coming from. You're the Zoning Officer and you're supposed to follow the regulations. And the regulations say that's allowed in that area. Now I agree with you that maybe they won't like it, but that garage is there and they had a permit for it. And they put it up and it's in an RA area, so who are you to say they can't have it? M. Gunn: I'm not to say they can't have it. But if you take the height limitation off and allow people to build a 35-foot tall garage, those garages can go into anybody that has a nice chunk of property and they can build that within - - G. Totman: I understand that. But what I'm saying is, in the RA area that activity is permitted . M. Gunn: Right, right, right. You're going off on a tangent. I'm talking about the size of the structure is allowing a use that could be detrimental to the environment, to the people living around it G. Totman: I'll turn it over to the Planning Board because I think you, as a Zoning Officer, are trying to set the rules. And I have never seen it done that way. Never, never have I ever seen the Zoning Officer try to make his rules on what he's going to enforce . G. Van Slyke: Mark, I guess I have another question if he's all done . In the Minutes from the Board meeting, you're saying in one part there where you're talking to Dan Carey, I'll try to find it here, you talk about finished grade versus another kind of grade. You're saying -- okay, here it is, it's page 6 -- you guys with me on this one? Well, I guess we better go back to 5 and it reads, this is Mark now, the height of the accessory structure can be 12 feet from finished grade to highest peak of roof. In the Minutes, okay? I don't see where it says anything in the Ordinance here -- I'm looking at page 58 of our Ordinance -- where it says detached accessory buildings or structures. It doesn't say anything about above finished grade. And I can't find it anywhere in here . Page 10 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 M. Gunn: That's the whole thing -- G. Van Slyke: Where does it say finished grade? G. Totman: Page 8. Page 8 says the vertical distance from finished grade to the highest point of a pitched roof. G. Van Slyke : Oh, okay. But it doesn't say anything in that one part. Okay. M. Gunn: You have to look up the definition. G. Totman: And the fact is even that is a little more restrictive than it is in other towns. Other towns talk about not to the highest point of the pitched roof, but to the average point of the pitched roof. In those towns, it depends on the pitch . It could be 40 feet or 45 feet. It says the average midpoint of the pitched roof in all the ones that I've looked at. Ours already is more strict than the other towns. That's where I'm coming from. I don't want to make Groton so strict that we can't do things that other people can do . M. Gunn: No, but its worked since -- G. Totman: Well, it hasn't worked because they've been building them until you came along. M. Gunn: You've got to go around town, George , and look at the size of these garages. G. Totman : I've been around town, Mark. M. Gunn: You can count on two hands the amount of garages that we have that have higher than 12 -foot walls. There's very few that aren't agricultural in use . G. Totman: But what the Planning Board did at their last meeting was it said to forget the 12 -foot walls. We allow houses to be 35 feet. We allow garages on the side of the houses to be 35 feet. If they want to build a detached garage, what is wrong with that being the same size as the house? That's what we talked about, correct? V. Travis: Yes, that's correct. G. Totman: We just didn't see the difference. We didn't see where you have a problem. M. Gunn: I've only got the problem because of the walls. G. Totman: And it's our Board, it's our job to recommend to the Town Board about the changes in rules and regulations. When the Town Board starts listening to somebody else , then they don't need a Planning Board . I'm sorry , but that's the way I look at it. It's like if you're a cop and you don't like it because people are doing 30 miles an hour and they should only be done 20, you go and ask them to change the speed limit. That isn't the way it works. M. Gunn: No, that's not the way it is. V. Travis: Well, it seems to me that these subsequent problems that you are saying, Mark, that can arise , such as a building going in there or an apartment getting in there , those are actually covered in the Code. Now the fact that someone does it without having gotten their permit, your building permit, or site plan review for a business, that's a separate and distinct problem. G. Totman: That's in the Uniform Building Code . M. Gunn: It's a separate problem, but allowing the structure to get to the size where it can be manipulated for a different use, I think, is asking for trouble. And I'm only saying what I'm saying because, as a Code Enforcement Officer, I'm required to look at life safety, I'm required to look at Page 11 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 building codes, I'm required to look at anything to do with future problems with the environment, whether it be physical -- children in the area, you know -- I can see a big problem with four diesel trucks going in and out of the hamlet of McLean to be parked in a garage. There's nothing we can do about that. It's allowed . The guy can do it. But, if we allow a 35-foot tall structure and we start getting these massive buildings next to somebody who has lived and paid taxes on their property all their life, and somebody comes in and they put a 35-foot tall building/garage right next to the property line, and this person has nothing to say about that - - V. Travis: But if that use - - first of all , if they're going to convert it into a trucking business, they need to get Site Plan Review. M. Gunn: Right, V. Travis: And if a trucking business is a permitted use -- I mean, we have one in McLean here just recently. We did a body and fender shop on Gulf Hill Road . And it turned out it was a permitted use. I mean, we can say if we follow your line of thinking, there shouldn't be body and fender shops in a residential neighborhood in McLean, but in that particular zone it was permitted. We put restrictions on the persons operation that we felt would take care of some of the undesirable circumstances that might arise. And that's really how the whole process works . M. Gunn: Right. It's not so much I'm saying the uses aren't allowed . Like I said before, it's giving up any kind of control over any kind of safety or knowing what's going on in the structure. And my perfect example is Van Benschoten's down here . The garage is so huge, no one knew the guy was in there constructing -- had any kind of business. And he had two businesses in there . G. Van Slyke: Van Benschoten? G. Totman : Yes. Down where Munson used to be . M. Gunn: And it's an allowed use and everything down there . But everything was being done inside . No one knew there was any business there. V. Travis: But that's going to be true until the end of the Earth. M. Gunn: Right. But it's going to be greater if we have gigundous G. Totman: I just passed out something. I want to explain to you something so that people can understand. Because the majority of the people that don't get involved with this building thing don't understand these things . And like I said to you about the 35 limit that we've got in Groton , it says 35 feet to the peak. In other areas, the height is the vertical distance measured from the finished grade to highest point of the flat roof, the deck of ? roof, or the highest midpoint of the pitched roof. And that's what this thing is right here . And this is out of the Code book. M. Gunn: Right, G. Totman : In all the other areas, as you look at that thing and as you draw the line through there, it's the highest point -- the highest midpoint of the pitched roof. And so in the other towns around us that are going by this, they're higher than even what we allow here in Groton under what we're recommending. So why do we have a different problem in Groton than they do in the other towns? That's my question . M. Gunn: We don't have the problem right now. That's why I'm saying why give the potential for the problem? G. Totman: Did you follow that? That's at the top left-hand corner up there. But it's just something I took out of the Code book, and I know Lansing and Dryden go by this . It's out of a New York State Construction Codebook. I think Mark's got a copy of that here someplace . Page 12 of 22 r Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 V. Travis: Well, I understand Mark's point. And I think we understand our points in making the decision. What is expected of us? Is the Town Board asking for us to reconsider our decision? G. Totman; No, they asked Mark to give his comments to us. V. Travis: Okay, G. Totman: As I understood it. That's what it was. G. Van Slyke: In some of the things that you bring up , Mark, about people with trailers and like that, you know, a person with a trailer, nine times out of ten because of just the aesthetics of his piece of property, I mean, how many people are going to come in and build a gigundous garage next to a doublewide trailer? Unless you have the idea that I'm going to use it for a different purpose than what usually is intended by a garage -- do you see what I mean? As Van has said , this kind of thing, the use of it is going to be for something other than just to store his car in or his vehicles or something like that, or his camper, or whatever, you know. That has to be done with Site Plan Review. You can't change the use of what the structure is basically for. . So in that sense , I really don't see where limiting how high we want to go with this thing, what the limit should be, is a major factor in these other things . Because even if they were going to put an apartment overhead in this thing, or like some of the things you mention that become a fire problem or something like that, you know, how high that building was when it was originally built is not going to be something that's going to determine the difference in the use of that place is what I'm trying to say I guess . You know what I'm saying? M. Gunn: Yes, G. Van Slyke : Because , you know, whether you say it can be a limit of 12 -foot walls or whether you say it can be a limit of 27 feet, or whatever, for the pitch , you know, if they're going to change what they're going to use that for -- I mean you can do that with anything . You can do that with a house or anything like that. If you want to change the use of it, you've got to come in and do a Site Plan Review. And so that's going to be taken care of. V. Travis: I'm a case in point. The building in McLean where our store is? The back section there, this isn't a height issue , but the back section was nothing but post construction with pressure- treated lumber, and it held a large walk-in cooler. And, as you know, we wanted to convert it into a structure that would be part of the rest of the building. It only had 2 by 4 construction . We got a building permit. We got Site Plan Review. We got a building permit, and we did it according to Code. We had to shim the 2 by 4s out to 2 by 6 so we could insulate in the sidewalls. We had to do the same in the ceiling to insulate up there. We had to insulate the floor which meant crawling under the building to do it. We literally took what was not even a utility structure, really - - it was equivalent to a patio/deck on a house in terms of its construction, but with some sidewalls and a lean-to roof. And we had to go by Code. We were told specifically what to do, and that's what everyone else has to do . But I don't thing we want to use the Zoning Ordinance as a vehicle to limit people's freedom to do with their property and their structures what really is their inherent right as the owners, as long as they follow the rules. Are we going to get snookered? Yes. Would someone else have possibly done what I just talked about and not gotten Site Plan Review and a building permit? Sure . That happens all the time . That's why we have you driving around trying to -- G. Totman: Usually they get caught because if they have a fire or something and the insurance company comes along and says -- let me see your -- did you build this to Code , and whatever? But you know, another thing I think of too is a lot of these newer homes are not built like the older homes . They don't have attics in them for storage and stuff like that. And a lot of people -- I know a lot of people that have built garages so they can have storage above the garage . And they've built it for that reason . I just don't feel that we should say they can't do that. M. Gunn: Well, the last thing I have to say is what is your average height of a story? V. Travis: Well, rule of thumb is ten feet, but -- Page 13 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 M. Gunn: Eight-foot ceilings in your house? V. Travis: Yes, M. Gunn: What's three times eight? That's not even to the limitation of the height you guys are— G. Totman: But you're talking about a flat roof. M. Gunn: No, I'm not. G. Totman : We're talking about a peaked roof now. M. Gunn: Talk about a gambrel roof. Talk about any kind of peak you want . Two stories is 16 feet. Three stories is 24 feet. That's giving the potential for way more than what New York State allows, which is you cannot build a 5B construction three-story, and it's what this has the potential to become . With an 8-foot floor and a 35-foot height limit, you could very possibly end up with somebody having a three-story wood structure right here . All's they got to do is put a second floor on that garage with storage space above it. And all that's called is you just take a truss with a cutout in it, which I put in almost every month of my life for an attic truss, and you've got a walk-in attic for storage in a garage . In giving them 35 feet, you just gave them the right for a three-story wooden structure if they've got a cutout in those attic trusses. Which is not allowed in New York State law. V. Travis: Well, if that's not allowed , then it's not allowed. M. Gunn: Right. But you have a -- G. Totman: You can have a building 45 feet tall and still be within New York State law. M. Gunn: You have the conflict there with the garage, a two-story garage with a walk-in attic , with an attic truss . If they get a weight-rated attic truss and they put an attic up there, and it might only be 6-foot wide and might only have a 6-foot tali ceiling, but you have a third story wooden structure . That's the potential this Town has for the danger of allowing something like that when the NYS Code does not allow 5B three-story wooden structures. And I'm looking at this in a safe -- G. Totman: Yes, I know. You're very safety conscious. I know that. I know when you go to fires you want to close the house down because they had a fire and you don't think it's safe for them to live in afterwards. I've heard that many times, Mark. M. Gunn: I've only been to two fires in two years. G. Totman: I think you're reading in to something that isn't there . Nobody else is having the problem. I know I've heard you say you can't sleep nights because you worry about this and you worry about that, but believe me, I've been doing this and I certainly -- I just don't have the same problem that you do . And like I said, for the last ten years I was in the fastest-growing Town in the County with no zoning. And we didn't have those problems. When I give a building permit, I'm going by the Building Code . And there wasn't even any zoning in that part of the Town . I kept them to the 35 feet. We've never had a problem. I really just -- I don't think I should take away rights from people just because I have a premonition that something might be wrong. I know you don't think that way . V. Travis: But the other problems are, if it's illegal to do what you just described, then it's illegal. And if someone does that, they then are charged with having done something illegal and remedies are taken at that point, not up front like this where what you're proposing, Mark, is what we'll do is we'll be so restrictive that the problem just physically can't happen . And I understand that viewpoint. It makes your job a whole lot easier if there's no problems out there . But it seems to me there are reasons to allow people to have a structure that meets their basic needs as long as it is legal. M. Gunn: And I'm all for that. Page 14 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 V. Travis: My inclination, George, is to reaffirm our decision of last month and report back to the Town Board that we had the discussion. They, of course, will have access to the Minutes. G. Totman : Does anyone else have an opinion? Sheldon? S. Clark: Yes . I see all sides of it, and 1 just think it would be too restrictive for us to spell that out. I think we should go the way -- my gut feeling tells me we should go the way we decided in the first place. G. Totman: Somebody make that motion? V. Travis: I'll make that motion . S. Clark: I'll second it. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated in the affirmative. ) Sorry about that. M. Gunn: Hey. Other Matters: John Beck Re-Visited G. Totman: Did you hear us when we talked to John Beck? M. Gunn: Yes, G. Totman: Okay. I'm going to make April a little note , because he'll probably be in in the morning before I get here . S. Clark: Now he's going to have to pay again, right? G. Totman: Well , we didn't say that. S. Clark: That will be up to April? G. Totman: Well, no, I don't think we should leave it up to April . J. Fitch: You should make a motion to waive the fee. G. Totman: I think we ought to make a motion . G. Van Slyke: I would make that motion . G. Totman: If he'd have filed that back then when he was supposed to V. Travis: I second that motion . G. Totman: George made the motion, and Van seconded it, to waive the fee. Anybody opposed? All agreed . I have a tendency not to agree with it, but -- S. Clark: Well, it's going to make a mess in that office. V. Travis: d And he's going to carry on there like he did here . G. Totman: Yes. And they couldn't handle him like we did here . You know him, and I know him. But if he'd have followed through -- you see, even though he thought it was all approved . Page 15 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 Approval of Minutes - October Meeting G. Totman: Anything else to come before the Board? J. Fitch: Approve the Minutes. G. Totman : Oh, yes. Well, I was going to go back to that. Because I got something else. Has everybody read the Minutes of the last meeting? V. Travis: Yes. G. Van Slyke: Yes. G. Totman : Anyone want to make a motion we approve or disapprove or make a change? G. Van Slyke : I move that we approve the Minutes of the last meeting. V. Travis: I'll second it. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated in the affirmative) . Okay. _Other Matters - Introduction of Supervisor-Elect & Councilman-Elect G. Totman : We have a new leader here tonight, and I think we ought to give him a chance to tell us what he's got in mind. Glen Morey, or new Town Supervisor, G. Morey: This is Tyke Randall who will be on the new Board. Well, for the last couple weeks I've been meeting with Teresa, Town people , and others, and some of the things that have come up with is that the Code's confusing, and things like that. I know that everybody's just revised this over the last couple years and it's been a lot of work. But some of the things that I'm going to be doing is to require Mark to be here at every meeting, and that there will be a rotating Board member here every month so they can report back to the Board on a rotating basis. And that's about it. G. Totman: A rotating Board member? You're not going to assign just one to Planning, one to Town Highway, one to this and one to that? G. Morey: Oh , yes. That'll be different. The ZBA and the Planning Board will be rotated. There will be an appointment to the Highway and various others. Do you have three vacancies now? Sheldon will be off. V. Travis: He will be off and -- G. Totman: He's got one more meeting. Sheldon. G. Morey: Cecil has resigned as of last month, and Verl has been gone for the last couple months. So we will advertise in the Shopper and take Board recommendations . I know Neville was down to fill out an application , and Barb Clark. Does anybody else have any suggestions? And that's about it. There's going to be a lot of work done at the beginning of next month . G. Van Slyke: Now are you saying, Glen, that you're looking for us to go back and rewrite some of this, or just review it? Because that was an ungodly session we went through . G. Totman: We've been through a lot of those in the past 30 years. G. Morey: Well, it took us three years to review the Code. And it's a long, drawn out -- the Zoning and Code books -- V. Travis: Now when you say review it, you're expecting some kind of feedback from us in terms of changes that might be made , clarifications - - Page 16 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 G. Morey: If we have a whole bunch of things to change, change it all at once . But there's a lot of things coming up with cell towers and, I mean, I know George has come up with a whole bunch of different things facing towns, villages, and cities throughout the country. And are we prepared for it? What can we put in our Code that will cover something like that. One of the biggest things in the Village was having those 12-foot radio towers or dishes in the backyard. Well, now they are only 12 inches in diameter. Will we require them to have a building permit to get these? Something like that . But before then, they could just put it out in the back yard . G. Totman: They got something else in the Village that I would like to see in the Town. And I think probably Glen would agree that it will take some time doing. They did a Code codification in the Village, and it's a book about that thick. They hired somebody to do it, and it cost about $5, 000. But what it does is these people come in and they take every code , rule, and regulation and put it all in one book. It's not something you pass out to the people, because you have these things like we have . But for somebody like Mark that comes in, he doesn't have to look to see if we've got a junkyard code, or this code or that code. He takes this one book and it's the Town of Groton Code Codification Book. And everything that's ever been passed or changed is automatically in that book. And I think it's a big help, especially for new people coming in. But even anybody. If there's a question or anything, you've got one book you can look at. Don't you think it's been very successful? G. Morey: Before that it was a problem. We found out that a lot of people were being approved because they were a friend of somebody else, and then the next person coming in couldn't get approved. So that's one of the reasons why we did it was to make it the same for everybody. And nobody's ever really bitched about it or anything like that. They all know what the rules are and they play by the rules. And it's worked very well. Discussion - Accessory Buildings Re-Visited G. Totman: Before I forget it, I was going to do something else tonight, and I forgot about it. I mentioned earlier when we were talking with Mark that if you really look at our Ordinance close , and I don't mean that he should go out and do this at all, but if you really look at our Ordinance close, it says in there if it's not listed, it's not approved. You can't find anywhere in our Ordinance where it's listed that you can put a residential auxiliary building up , period . V. Travis: That came up in the ZBA hearing, didn't it? G. Totman : So if you really want to look at that close, that's something we should take care of quite quickly. I mean, we all know it and I think our message is to Mark, don't take everything seriously and stuff and stop everything like that. But I think it's something we should look at. What I've given everybody, if you look at number 11 , this is out of the Lansing Ordinance, number 11 just says accessory use and it tells where, obviously, it's allowed in all the districts, but it does give them the authority to give the permit, and we don't have that in our Ordinance . So I think we should also recommend to the Town Board they add a line similar to that so it gives the authority to issue a building permit. S. Clark: Shall we do that now? G. Totman : We can do it now, or we can do it at our December meeting and get it in so they can have it with the new Board . V. Travis: What's the advantage to waiting a month? G. Totman: It will get put off anyways. V. Travis: You mean they won't act on it in December? G. Totman : You know they won' t. But we can make the motion and whatever and give it to them. Page 17 of 22 , Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 V. Travis: Well, let's do it on the chance that -- G. Totman: We've seen the problem. We should try to correct it. You understand where I'm coming from, Glen? V. Travis: Well that became quite an item of conversation G. Totman: It came from me meeting with Lyle Raymond too . Lyle's been over a couple of times and we've set down and gone over some of this stuff. S. Clark: This will have to be another resolution? G. Totman: Another resolution . S. Clark: That has to go through and change all the G. Totman: Well, no. This one here won't be like what Fran was explaining about the other one , because the other one went into every -- because that was in every listing. This is just where it says what's allowed and what isn't allowed on that one page . We're just going to add that line and say that this is allowed. And as far as I'm concerned , it can be allowed in any section where they allow residential uses . So it will be across the board . S. Clark: Why don't you think the present Town Board will go for it? G. Totman: They didn't go for the last one we sent them. Usually, they've set on them -- their past history has been wait and get more of them together and do it all at once . But I think this is something that we should really ask them to please look at because -- it hasn't been a problem, but now that we've brought it up, somebody might pick it up and say it could be a problem. V. Travis: Let's do it tonight. I 'll move to resolve that we add -- oh , this isn't out of our Code so I don't know where it goes and what all the proper numbers, pages, and everything is. G. Totman: Well, see, in our Code we don't have - - V. Travis: We don't have a table that's identical to this . G. Totman: No, and our Code isn't numbered , but it's under Land Use Activities, Section 341 . V. Travis: Why don't you word it and I'll move it. G. Totman: Under Land Use Activities, Section 341 , it should come in -- we allow one-family dwelling units and two-family dwelling units, and right below where it says accessory apartment, we should add this : Accessory Use Related to Residential Development. Right below where it says multiple-family dwelling units and apartment condos. And then we allow it across the board except in the Industrial. We don't allow, in this Code , one- and two-family dwelling units in the I District, so we keep it out of there . Somebody make that motion. S. Clark: Did she get it at all? I couldn't hardly understand it. G. Totman: You want it in the motion that we want to add it in that spot where I put it, and all the districts, except I . J. Fitch: So we add under Land Use , Section 341 , that you will allow G. Totman: After "multi-family dwelling units" -- Page 18 of 22 3 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 J. Fitch: I've got that. That you will allow accessory use related to residential development. Period. G. Totman: Right. In all districts, except I . G. Van Slyke: Will this be without Site Plan Review? G. Totman: Yes . We don't ask for Site Plan Review for two-family dwellings ; we shouldn't ask for it for a garage. G. Van Slyke: Yes we do -- in Low Intensity. G. Totman: Well, in Low Intensity, yes. G. Van Slyke: And in MI and M2 . G. Totman: We don't in RA. J. Fitch: Okay. So we got Van making this motion? V. Travis: Yes. G. Totman : Sheldon seconded it. I don't think you should need a Site Plan Review to put up a garage or a 12xl2 storage shed . In the Village there are more concentrated areas than it is in the Town also . S. Clark: What about for runoff? G. Totman: You've got to have it so far in from your sidelines. V. Travis: And you've got a one-acre lot minimum. G. Totman: And if you've already put a house up there you had to get a permit for that, and you didn't have to go through Site Plan Review for the house . Do they need a Site Plan Review in the Village for a house? G. Van Slyke: Well they need it for an outbuilding like one of those little storage sheds. G. Totman : Well, you've got to realize that the Village is much closer in density than it is out in the Town . I think you'd get a lot of garbage from people out in the Town if you started making them go through Site Plan Review for stuff like that. G. Morey: You know, the thing is, George , we have to make rules and regulations here so Mark G. Totman: I really understand it. I've done it for 12 years. I'm sorry, but I'm not new to that game. I look at what the people think. We're still in America and we should still have some rights of our own instead of somebody sitting down at a board saying, sir, do you want a garage? Let five or six people look it over to see if you really need that garage . I don't think that's politically popular, to tell you the truth. And not only not politically popular, but it's not done in any other place around that I know of. I mean , if we want to be Gestapos, that's great. But I'll be against it; I'll campaign against it. G. Van Slyke: Okay, I can probably -- now your example , George, is for Rural Agricultural. But we do have some areas in the Town where you do have density. What do you do about places like McLean? In other words, you're going to just say okay, this is your right, you can build whatever you want, put anything you want, you know, in McLean. Anyplace you want in McLean? Right next to George Totman's house , or right next to the line? Page 19 of 22 F Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 G. Totman: You've got to get a building permit. Look, let me put it this way. With this Ordinance that's been in effect since 1972 -- G. Van Slyke: Not this one . G. Totman: Well, the same type of Ordinance -- and we haven't had these problems that you're talking about. G. Van Slyke: Well, the thing is, you know, what you're saying is they can do it in the Village of Groton because it's so much more an intensified area and they're closer together. Well , there are places in the Town where there's intensified areas too that you may want to look at and say -- you know, rather than say okay, give them free reign, let them go do whatever they want to there -- You look at a place like Groton City, like McLean -- the other M1 district is along this stretch down 34, you know. And you're saying just open it up and say okay, you can put anything you want in there and you don't have to have Site Plan Review for it. I don't quite agree with that. G. Totman: That's the way it is now. It's been that way. G. Van Slyke: Because we don't have it in the Ordinance . G. Totman : I know. But nobody realized we didn't have it in the Ordinance , George . They've been building garages and outhouses ever since day one in the Town of Groton and we haven't had that problem. G. Van Slyke: Then why do we need to throw it in here then? G. Totman: What we need to do is protect Mark and put it in here so he can legally give a permit. Because it's not there now. Nobody's ever questioned it. It was only brought up because of this height of the garage business that came up, and the ZBA started looking through the Ordinance and said well, they're not allowed anyway because it says in the beginning of this chapter right here that if it's not listed, it's not allowed . That means no outhouse, storage shed, or garage -- detached garage that is -- is allowed . So what we're going to do is put it in there so he can legally give this permit for a garage. That's all it's for. G. Van Slyke : Well, I guess the thing I disagree with then, George, is that you're going across the board with it without Site Plan Review, G. Totman: For a garage? G. Van Slyke : Yes. G. Totman : You can put up a single-family home without a Site Plan Review. G. Van Slyke : We're not talking a home . We're talking about an accessory building as you're saying . M. Gunn: That can now be 35 feet tall. V. Travis: Site Plan Review has to do with the use - - G. Totman: Business, yes -- V. Travis: And as soon as that person puts up that 35-foot building and then says that they want to have a body and fender shop in there -- G. Totman : Then they've got to have a Site Plan Review . G. Van Slyke : But they can build -- you're saying okay, you can build any structure you want on there, any place in the Town of Groton . Page 20 of 22 x Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 V. Travis: Well, you've got to meet the requirements for size and everything. You've got to have the setbacks. M. Gunn: You are now slightly beginning to see where I'm coming from. G. Van Slyke : I'm starting to look at these districts and I'm saying, you know, I'd be an unhappy camper if I lived in McLean and somebody put a garage up there without having somebody saying something about how large or how huge it can be . If he's right next door to me . M. Gunn: Salt Road and Old Stage Road -- there's a row of houses so close you can read the newspaper from the other guys house. G. Totman: They were put up before the Ordinance got there . M. Gunn: Right. But we could potentially be adding -- G. Totman: You have rules and regulations now how close they can be to the side yard line . G. Van Slyke : Right, G. Totman: That's governed . You have a height regulation like we've always had . V. Travis: You don't have a regulation on the square footage of the building, is that right? G. Totman: No , V. Travis: This one that was being appealed was 52 by 52 which is one gigantic garage. M. Gunn: The only thing that really restricts people in that sense is the New York State Building Code . Because the more square footage you get, the more fire protection you need. You end up having to have -- you're getting into a commercial size structure -- you end up having to have sprinkler systems which people can't afford, so they keep them down. But you're talking about a large garage, a large garage. So, normally, that's not a problem around here . G. Morey: George, is that a contradiction right now that if we don't pass the resolution to go to the 35-foot height, is a contradiction in the Code that it's not being dealt with? It's not allowed? G. Totman: No, the Code is dealing with the height. They're calling it 12 foot. The ZBA calls the 12 foot the peak. Mark calls it the side wall. It's not clear how they're looking at it. Lyle Raymond swears uphill and down that means -- 12 foot means the peak. You don't look at it that way. M. Gunn: Well, I do now because I see the way it's read . I always let it go because -- G. Totman, We made our motion last month to change it to make it the same as if you put a garage on the side of your house . Same thing. The only thing, what we're talking about now is, the only reason I - - if I didn't bring this up, there wouldn' t be an argument and it would be the same way as it was right along. It's been this way for years. We've given building permits for garages, storage sheds, or whatever, and nobody's ever said a word about it. Nothing. Until the thing came up with the ZBA about a variance for the height. And the ZBA went through the Zoning Ordinance , studied it all out, which is what they're supposed to do, and they said, oh , it says in here if it's not listed it's not allowed . And Lyle says, nobody's ever caught that before . Somebody might come along and say, I'm not going to give you a permit because it's not in here. And then all hell would break loose because everybody else had got a permit for a garage. All I'm saying is, bring our Code up to do the same thing we've been doing for the last 30 years. Not changing a thing. It's not actually changing anything. It's just making it legal to do what we've been doing. Is that correct? M. Gunn: Correct, Page 21 of 22 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 18 November 1999 V. Travis: And what was essentially an oversight would be corrected in the Ordinance . G. Totman : Anybody else? We have a motion on the floor. Anybody else have anything on it? All in favor? (All members present, except for Member Van Slyke , indicated "aye. " Member Van Slyke was opposed .) Anyway, it passes three to one. Is there anything else to come before the Board? Adjournment V. Travis: I move adjournment. S. Clark: I'll second . All in favor? (All members present indicated "aye. ") The meeting was adjourned at 8 :55 p.m. Jo E. Fitch R ording Secretary Page 22 of 22