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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1999-06-17 A ., f TOWN OF GROTON PLANNING BOARD Public Hearing & Meeting Minutes/Transcript - Thursday, 17 June 1999 Members, Groton Planning Board (*Absent) Others Present George Totman , Chairman Joan Fitch , Recording Secretary Monica Carey Bob Walpole , Applicant Cecil Twigg James Henry , Applicants' Attorney George Van Slyke Mark Gunn, Town CEO *Verl Rankin Sheldon Clark *Van Travis The meeting was called to order at 7:32 p.m. by Chairman George Totman. G. Totman: Have you all read the Minutes of the last meeting? Let's hold those to the end of the meeting because the Minutes of the last meeting our Clerk didn't get them to us in time . J. Fitch: They had them Monday. G. Totman: They were here on the table . Fred N. Portzline , RO/Robert Walpole . ReQ - Peru Rd. - Part of TM # 314 -7.2 G. Totman: We have before us, if you've looked at your mail , a subdivision for Fred Portzline . Bobby Walpole is representing Fred Portzline and it's open for discussion. Do you have any questions? R. Walpole: It's a three-unit all on the east side of the road . There's a building permit issued for here and then there'll be about six acres with this other lot the next door neighbor's buying. The rest of the property will stay with the . . . (unintelligible to tape and secretary's ear) . C. Twigg: Just down south of here , right? R. Walpole: Yes, it's south of the meat plant. It goes out behind the -- goes out -- I can't think of who -- Co Twigg: Hughes. Okay, this is between Hughes and the Blackberry Hill Antiques? Okay, G. Van Slyke: Gee, I wasn't reading that map very good then . R. Walpole: The top of the map , where it says Town of Groton, Village of Groton, is the north side . That'd be the east side . G. Van Slyke: That isn't true is it? Okay, show me where - - okay, at the very bottom -- I 'm looking at this Bob . This is Blackberry Antiques . You going to sell that? R. Walpole: 7 .3 , G. Totman: The meat plant's up here . R. Walpole: Here's Blackberry and this is Salsa's (sounds like) new lot . And this is what Tommy Hughes is going to buy. The rest of it stays with where the meat plant is. G. Van Slyke: Oh , I see what you're saying. Okay. Page 1 of 15 r Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 R. Walpole: It's all part of one big tax map. There's right around a hundred acres with the whole thing . G. Van Slyke: We're only concerned with this. He's already subdivided the other side , is that right? R. Walpole: We were in here once and indicated that's what we were going to do. G. Van Slyke: All right. Okay . Because I seem to remember this whole thing. R Walpole, We were in about two years ago when we put it on the market for sale - - that's when we were thinking of doing. G. Van Slyke: But this is only on one side of the road and we'd only treat it as that subdivision . It' s not treated in the whole picture . IL Walpole: That's correct. G. Totman: All of the lots are legal-size lots for the Town of Groton. Co Twigg: What's that 5W there? G. Totman: Well, first off, we are just having it surveyed off, and we'll make it part of the here . The one that Hughes is going to be buying. G. Van Slyke: Hughes is going to buy the one in the black. R, Walpole, That' s correct. G. Van Slyke: So he already owns -- he doesn't own , or he's buying? F. Walpole: The one acre he owns. G. Van Slyke: He owns the one acre -- R. Walpole: That's correct. G. Van Slyke: Well help me out, Bob . Where does this thing divide up? Is it the black line here that divides up from Hughes to the meat market? There's so many lines here . IL Walpole: No, no . The black line is what Hughes is buying. The balance of this, the balance of this is this copy of the survey which is right here on record . And then the balance of this from here stays with the meat market. G. Van Slyke: So okay. What's this double line for? Does that separate Hughes from -- R. Walpole: No, the double line was the preliminary when we were here two years ago. We were looking into breaking it into four units, but we're not going to. Dennis Portzline' s going to purchase the rest of this that will go with the rest of this. G. Van Slyke: Okay. But this doesn't help me out. You're telling me that Hughes owns this one acre right here , that little bit. R. Walpole: Which has nothing to do with this subdivision . G. Van Slyke: Right. But what I'm saying is, he's surrounded by all this other stuff, right? M Walpole: Well, he's buying everything -- he's buying this right here, including up to here and straighten his property line out. Okay? Page 2 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 G. Van Slyke: Okay. So now he'll go from here - - R Walpole, That's correct. Everything that's in the black, there'll be a survey done -- G. Totman: Plus the one acre . G. Van Slyke: Plus this one acre . R. Walpole. Well he owns that. G. Van Slyke: Yes , right. R Walpole. But that has nothing to do with it. G. Van Slyke: Yes, I know that has nothing to do with it, but I want to know where the end goes. I want to know where it starts from, where Hughes starts and where it's going to add onto the meat market. Do you understand what I'm saying? R Walpole, Well , Hughes starts right here where his property line starts. G. Van Slyke: Okay, M. Carey: That's just going to even up his lot. R Walpole, Hughes already has a survey -- right here . G. Van Slyke: Well, okay. I just -- so all this yellow line goes down and includes Hughes. See, it looks like it includes Hughes, but it doesn't, right? R. Walpole, Right. G. Van Slyke: And he's going to come on this however that little line or creek -- R. Walpole. The survey's a heck of a lot better thing than the tax map . G. Van Slyke: Yes, right. R. Walpole, It's just an adjustment on it . Hughes already owns the other property there. All we're doing there is straightening his line out here and taking it back to the railroad right-of-way. G. Van Slyke: Okay. Now down here, show me where Blackberry Hill -- ILWalpole. It's that one , 7 . 3 which is right here . G. Van Slyke: Now, okay, because see it looks like it's been put in yellow, but Blackberry Hill is not owned by -- R. Walpole. It's owned by Baker. G. Van Slyke: Yes, so it's not owned by Portzline , right? R Walpole: I think you have a copy of the survey there that shows that. There should be . G. Van Slyke: Oh , okay. R. Walpole, That's a survey of the lot we sold , the first one. And we're in the process of getting this other one surveyed . Page 3 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 Co Twlwg: That Blackberry Hill has 1 . 7 acres? R Walpole: 1 . 47, but they also own part of 10. 2 . G. Van Slyke: See what was confusing was where you drew the yellow you included lots that were already registered to somebody else. So it's not really a true picture here. R Walpole: That's why we needed a survey. G. Van Slyke: Right. Okay, that line doesn't mean diddly. R. Walpole. For the other subdivision, we'll have to come back in here . G. Van Slyke: On this side, or the other side? On either side? G. Totman: Please . G. Van Slyke: Are you ready to do the SEQRA now? G. Totman: Well, unless anybody's got any more questions . C. Twigg: Let's get him on the tax roll . G. Totman: We're doing the Short Form SEQRA. Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part If of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part IL Therefore, it was determined by the Planning Board, upon a motion made by Member Monica Carey, seconded by Member Sheldon Clark, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a Negative Declaration, G. Totman: Does anybody else got anymore questions? It won't be legal until we get the final survey map because we have to put the stamp on it. R Walpole. The only survey we're doing is the lot that we're transferring . G. Totman: That's this one here? R. Walpole. No . That's already been transferred . G. Totman: Okay. When we get the survey of that one , then we can put the stamp on it because he won't give a building permit until we get one with a stamp on it. R. Walpole. He won't have to get a building permit. There's going to be no building on it. G. Totman: Well, whatever. Somebody might someday . G. Van Slyke: This is still a minor subdivision , right? G. Totman: Yes, I'd say so . G. Van Slyke: Even though Hughes is going to add that onto his property. That wouldn't be a boundary change . G. Totman: If it were just Hughes coming in here, we could call that a boundary change because he's just adding to his lot. Page 4 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 R. Walpole: I think he's going to keep it separate . The house is going to be transferred to his daughter and -- G. Totman: Okay, then it would be . G. Van Slyke: So that is a separate lot that's not to be in with his lot. R. Walpole: It very well could be tied in with the transfer going through on the daughter. For the house -- G. Van Slyke: I would like to make the motion that we approve the subdivision as requested without a public hearing. C. Twigg: I 'll second it. G. Totman: All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) Opposed? (There was no one left to oppose .) Clover Babel & Stacey Binkerd, ROsMames Henry. Attorney, ROW Attorney " Locke Road - TM # 16- 1 - 36.31 G. Totman: The Agenda says this was on Old Stage Road. It's really on Locke Road, the next one . C. Twigg: I had a devil of a time trying to figure this thing out. He's trying to confuse us to isn ' t he . G. Totman: No, it was April . She made a mistake and she left me a note in the folder and apologized . This one' s a little different. J. Henry: This one , when I finished it was different. G. Totman: Go ahead . J. Henry: Okay. You see an old survey map there on which there's a sketch drawn. There's a parcel there that's labeled Babel. That's Clover Babel's house . And there's a parcel there on the south side that says King, because this is an old map. That's owned at this time by Richard Dale, which is Stacey Binkerd's spouse . In 1997 , about a year ago, Clover Babel and Stacey Binkerd together bought this parcel that you see there, that 5 . 99± acre parcel, from the County. It was a tax foreclosure . And so they got a Quit Claim deed from the County for that parcel . And the intention was, at some point, to split it up between the two of them because they are the owners on each side and they did it to protect their property. And that time has come because Clover Babel has a sale on her house and half of this portion, so it needs to be subdivided . The only way to subdivide this parcel would be as flag lots. So I drew up a sketch for Clover Babel. Clover is my client on the sale of her house and half of this parcel . And so I drew up this application that you see and the first thing I 've got to do if you don't give me too much abuse, is I got to correct a couple of things. One of which is that I labeled it a rural flag lot which a rural flag lot is five acres, so it's a minor flag lot. I apologize for that. The other thing is that I carelessly said Attorney for the Subdividers ; actually, my client own client is Clover Babel though I am technically representing Stacey Binkerd , the other co-owner. The sketch that I gave you I drew thinking that that made the most sense to go halfway and then go to an existing survey pin. However, yesterday Stacey Binkerd told me that she objects to that configuration because it doesn't give equal acreages -- you can see that south piece is smaller than the north piece . I can see her point. What I ' ve done as alternatives is - - let me give you a couple more sketches -- possibilities. G. Van Slyke: Oh , that's nasty. J. Henry: Well, folks , wait until you see the next one . Page 5 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 M. Carey: Man. Well now, this Babel property . Are they going to just basically do a boundary change and incorporate that in one property? J. Henry: Here's why we're doing this. The guy that's buying put in a purchase offer to Babel through the brokers for roughly six acres which would be Babel's parcel plus this half parcel. And when we got that purchase offer for me to review it under the attorney approval, I called the attorney for the buyer and said that's a problem because you don't know this, that this is on a tax deed and your client wants to get a mortgage . He's not going to be able to get title insurance on this portion that' s on this tax deed this fast. You generally have to wait about ten years before title insurance companies will insure a tax deed . So if we do this the way you've got it constructed , your guy's not going to get his title insurance for his mortgage and you're going to have a problem . The way to do it is if we keep it as separate parcels. We sell the house and do two deeds and get the mortgage on just the house parcel, and you have the second parcel, and consolidate it in another nine years if you want, but not do it now because it's going to cause title problems to try to get a mortgage . And so they said oh , that sounds good. Go ahead and do that now instead of later. And so that's where we started with this, because the idea I think that Babel and Binkerd originally had is okay, we buy this, then we divide it and we make our parcels bigger. And that's a fine idea, but it has consequences because you bought it as a tax foreclosure. And so that's why instead of boundary change and a consolidation into one , we want to do flag lots. Now, as they said when I did that proposal and sent it out, Binkerd said wait a minute . The way I count this there's quite a bit more acreage in the north than the south . I said that was certainly true, so we've got to come up with some other proposal. Binkerd hasn't signed off on any proposal ; she's thinking about how she wants to do it. So meanwhile , we've got a contract date coming up here , might be July 15th , might be earlier, and so what I'm actually asking, if it's possible , or requesting, is whether -- if the Planning Board approves the flag lots, you could approve them on the concept of having roughly equal frontage going back, and then roughly equal acreage, but the particular configuration still has to be worked out on that back and do we do it in this going around, or on an angle? We can comply with the flag lot regulations either way. I think it's going to be around two and one-half acres in the back parcel . G. Totman: Let me pick up from there , Jim. As you're looking at this , the first one we looked at is out because of the problem with the acreage . But you look at the two that he gave us and they both agree with the Ordinance ; they've got enough frontage , got more than 20 feet up here , whatever, and my question is, on this corner right here , right there , what is the footage from there to there? J. Henry: I calculated it -- see the problem is that's a reduced map, it's out of scale when they reduced it. But I figure it's around 50 feet. G. Totman: Okay. I guess from what he's sent to us so far, both of these two that he passed out tonight comply with our rules and regulations -- footage-wise , acreage-wise, and whatever. So if you pass it the way he's presenting it, as I understand what he's saying, you're going to pass the request for a flag lot as well as this piece in close proximity to either one of these two here . J. Henry: Yes, although Binkerd may come back and say I've got a different idea. I don't know what that idea would be myself. I've looked at it and said well what are the reasons . C. Twigg: What have we got to have, 15 feet for the pole? G. Totman: It's got to be 20, Co Twigg: 20. All right . That would have to be in consideration . We don't want to approve anything you might come up with . It's got to meet - - G. Totman: Well that' s what I was saying -- Co Twigg: But this here -- you put this person out here and everyone said oh, that's an awful thing. But if you took this line here out, what they plan on doing, this first map here isn't so bad, if you Page 6 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 take this here out. But it looks the way you've got it -- now how would anyone get back in here to this? She's not figuring to use it as a flag lot? G. Totman: Now she didn't draw this up . J. Henry: They bought this to protect their properties. I think Clover's is pretty close to her line and so, you know, they didn't know what somebody else might do with that parcel. And actually , Binkerd asked me could this guy sell this lot off and build in here. And I said no, you can't build in the flag pole. But I don't think there's presently any intention of that because his original purchase offer was, you know, six acres. It was just like one parcel, and it was me that came up and said you've got a problem doing that, to his lawyer, because you don't know this yet, but when you get the Abstract that shows a tax parcel, you're going to go wait a minute, it's consolidated. Now I've got parts that I can't get title insurance on in order to get the mortgage , and so you want to have it as a separate parcel . Now later, he may say oh , well, I've got a legal building lot here ; I could do some building down back there , but as far as I know, the buyer has no intention - - I haven't talked to him, but there's no indication of that. And Binkerd -- the husband has that one parcel and the wife is on this other one . They could either consolidate it together or they could do something else. But they didn't indicate that they - - CO Twigg: Well this Babel lot here , if you put that line up closer to his with 20 foot of pole back through there , he wouldn't have to have a great big notch up there . J. Henry: And that's possible . I mean they might say well, let's cut this shorter. I want to make sure that on that curb, if you ever want to put a drive in there, I don't think we want just -- yes, you could have 20 and have a right-angle turn there, my guess 20, but it seems to me to be a little tight. G. Totman: And when you've got an 80-foot trailer trying to make that 20-foot curb -- of course , they're not going to put up walls there . It's very unusual that somebody would put up a hedgerow around that line or anything that. CO Twigg: But if that line was moved up there, there might not be much of a -- J. Henry : Yes, you mean bring that - - yes, I understand what you're saying -- which might be a possibility. I mean that's the awkward part of this application is I don't have a definite configuration , because I've still got two other people I've got to deal with : one is what's acceptable to Binkerd on the configuration, the other is we have to pacify the buyer. Now he's just said I 'm going to buy half of this piece . Well , okay, and what does he think is half? He probably thought at this point, probably kind of straight across. C. Twigg: If Binkerd got just a little more road frontage , it would be worth more than the land back here, so it gave him a little more road frontage. G. Totman: The road frontage , particularly, Cecil -- I don't think it would make any difference because you can't build on the flag pole anyway. M. Carey: Right, C. Twigg: No, but he's not figuring on it. That's what I say - - if you move that line -- G. Totman: He's already got 50 feet, more than you'd need for a driveway, and that's what he's going to use it for is a driveway. J. Henry: Oh , you're saying move that whole line north . I haven't actually gone and looked at this, but I understand Babel's house is close to this line . She wants as much here for side setback -- not legal side setback, but practical. C. Twigg: Another 20 feet ought to give her quite a buffer zone , hadn't it? G. Totman: She's getting 50 feet this way. Page 7 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 C. Twigg: Yes, G. Totman: And what would you gain by that? J. Henry: You bring this line down, and that's what he's saying -- you'd have less of a jog up if you bring this over, and you're picking up acreage to give down here . G. Totman: Well, I guess what I'm saying is that one or the other of these two here were given to us. Is there anything on these two if they were given to us as a separate -- as one entity -- that you feel you could pass it? M. Carey: I feel we could pass the first one he handed out, the one that has the G. Totman: Even the other one - - C. Twigg: The second one he put out there has got a point up there that's going to be hard to use. J. Henry: The one reason I included that one is that when I was talking to Binkerd yesterday she said, well, you know, I don't which way I want it because I've got to go take a look, like stand in my back yard and see how it looks. And so one way you can say I want the visual like this, you know, and that's probably an angle about like that. I've got to satisfy a bunch of different people here and I ' m trying to come up with a way to get around it. CO Twngg: You've got a job, Jim. G. Totman: All right, what I was getting at was we're not going to come up with a way tonight because he's got to go back to these people . J. Henry: I've got to get approval on it. G. Totman: And the conceptual -- that' s what I was looking at -- is that we have three things in front of us. Is there any one of these three , if that was the only one presented, or any one of these things would you turn down for a good reason? C. Twigg: Nope . G. Totman: So if that's true, then if he comes back and he keeps the same idea he's got -- the lines may go a little bit different one way or the other -- but as long as it's still met the criteria, had the acreage and the proper road frontage -- would you feel you could pass it as a subdivision? CO Twigg: I would be more than happy to . M. Carey: Yes. They've met all the regulations . G. Totman: George? G. Van Slyke: You're asking me? G. Totman: Yes. G. Van Slyke: I guess I could approve it. I don't know. S. Clark: Are there any creeks or hills on that property? G. Totman: Usually they show on the survey map . Page 8 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 G. Van Slyke: None of these things would be a real problem to me if they were going to add the parcel onto the property. J. Henry: Supposing they aren't? G. Van Slyke: If they aren't - - J. Henry: And that might be -- G. Van Slyke: I 'm looking at this one and I'm saying Holy God, if this guy, if he ever wanted to sell this thing and he wanted to put a house back in here, the guy's going to have to come out here, come this way, and jog back in. G. Totman: I know some that are like that. Let me put it in a different way. If there's one there , like George , you have a doubt on , where do you figure that we can legally turn it down? G. Van Slyke: I don't think we can legally turn any one of them down. G. Totman: According to our books. G. Van Slyke: We can't legally turn any of them down , but I 'm looking at this thing and I'm saying— G. Totman: I understand what you're saying. I wouldn't buy one of them. G. Van Slyke: I wouldn't either, unless -- G. Totman: But people do. G. Van Slyke: Unless I was going to add to the property that I had . G. Totman: I assume that's what's going to happen . (Multiple simultaneous conversations ; no transcription possible . ) G. Totman: They just bought a piece of property that was up for tax sale . And they bought it as equal partners because they didn't want somebody else coming along and buying it. I guess I can see where they were coming from on that. Somebody could have bought that whole parcel and put a junk yard out there -- G. Van Slyke: Well, legally then , I can't object to any one of the three plans. G. Totman: I guess what I was coming up with and the reason I asked that question, if he comes back with everything reasonably legal like it is now, lot sizes and road frontages, and on a regular survey map , would you want to vote to approve it and have it stamped as a legal lot? CO Twigg: I don't know why not. G. Van Slyke: Run that by me again. G. Totman: I 'm just assuming Mr. Henry is going to go out and talk to the two people . And he might come up with a different line . Maybe this line here might -- like this line that makes sort of a pie-shaped lot here, just for example, he might cut it off straight here and maybe give him some more down here , or something like that, but it will still be more acreage than we call for. It will still be the proper road frontage, more than we call for, because he's got, right now, each one is going to be 50 feet . We only require 20, So if he comes back with something like that, and it still complies like it does now, could you vote to accept it? C. Twigg: I could do that. Page 9 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 G. Totman: I'm not trying to push one way or the other, but we've got to come up with something. G. Van Slyke: So what's your objective? Your objective is that you're saying that we could give tentative approval tonight, or -- G. Totman: I guess what I'm saying is if you give approval you'd have to depend on myself, I guess , to make sure that he's complying with the rules. You're saying you're approving , for example , the maps that he presented to us with a possible change, as long as the change complies with the rules and regulations of the Ordinance . C. TwiWe I would do that. I trust George . M. Carey: I 'll second it. S. Clark: All in favor? G. Totman: Okay, the motion has been made and seconded and, upon approval, we'll still have to do the Short Form SEQRA. Is there anybody against the motion? All in favor? (All members present indicated they were in favor. ) George , would you do the honors? Board Member George Van Slyke then reads aloud Part II of the Short Environmental Assessment Form. Negative responses were obtained to all questions in Part II . Therefore, it was determined by the Planning Board, upon a motion made by Member Cecil Twigg, seconded by Member Monica Carey, with all members present voting in favor, that the action, based on the information submitted, will not cause any significant adverse environmental impact, resulting in a Negative Declaration. G. Totman: Before we go any further, you submitted this on the 7th of June? J. Henry: Yes. G. Totman: They didn't question you when you gave them twenty dollars? J. Henry: No , they gave me a receipt. G. Totman: It's thirty dollars . J. Henry: Oh , all right. G. Van Slyke: We don't have anything to do with that anyways, do we? G. Totman: Twenty is a boundary change ; rural is $20. The only reason I checked it close was because at the last Board meeting the Town Board changed the fees that they're charging. J. Henry: Okay, we'll send in the additional $ 10 , G. Totman: When you bring in the copy to have stamped , bring in the extra $ 10 , J. Henry: Now, my last question is what is the Board requiring with regard to the survey? Are we requiring a survey of the whole parcel? And the reason I ask that is because Binkerd will say why should I have to pay for a survey; I'm not the one that's selling. Babel's the one that's selling. But you say we've got to have a survey. G. Totman: Well, we have a survey of the whole parcel right now. If Babel surveys their part J. Henry: Our contract calls for a survey of Parcel A. as well as her house lot. Page 10 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 G. Totman: All right, that covers it. Because that tells us -- because they're not changing anything on Binkerd's side. G. Van Slyke: Why should he have to pay for a survey? G. Totman: If you do the survey for Babel, that covers the change in the lot for him anyway . We know what it is without paying for the survey. Does everybody agree with that? It's kind of stupid to make then spend money just to - - J. Henry: It may end up that I may have to do it anyway because the surveyor may say well, you know it's really not going to change the price much -- the surveyor I've talked to is the one that's already done this line for when Rose(?) bought that parcel over there . I've already negotiated a package price. I've just lost one of the people who would pay for the survey that's all . G. Totman: It' s stupid to survey something that's already been surveyed; it's not changing anything. Do that line right there. Basically, Jim, all he's got to survey is that one line for the division . J. Henry: Except that he has to then put it on -- see, this surveyor here is dead. So I can't go back to the same surveyor; I have to go to a different one . Generally, surveyors won't do a like on somebody else's -- G. Totman: Who's that, Davison? J. Henry: No Milt Greene is the one . See, Milt Greene did the survey over here . Davison did a survey down here and up here, but Greene did the longest line , so I went to Greene first. G. Van Slyke: Wouldn't he be the man to talk to to do the best kind of a line to get the acreage right on both sides? J. Henry: Yes, that's what I'm going to say is that I need from Binkerd -- now what do you like the best now that you've thought about it? And then I've got to go to Milt Greene and say they've got to be equal acreage , start plotting on the computer and show me what looks the most like this idea. G. Van Slyke: He could probably come back with a better configuration . J. Henry: You have helped me because you've approved , in concept -- G. Totman: Don't expect that every time like that. It's not a normal way to business. Okay, is there anything else that anybody'd like to bring before the Board? I guess not. Discussion of Matters w/Mark Gunn. Town CEO G. Totman: Yes, Mark. M. Gunn: I had Linda Fenner -- I think I talked to you about it once already. G. Totman: Yes, but I can't remember what it was. M. Gunn: It would be easier if I go to the map here . I had a lady approach me about property on the Peruville-McLean Road . Right about in here , right? G. Totman: Yes. M. Gunn: It's in this section right here, headed towards McLean - - there's a dip in the road . G. Totman: Cecil, do you know where Woody Sanford lived? Jim Keeney? Page 11 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 M. Carey: Where there's those three houses right in a row. M. Gunn: A white trailer on the left with a little tiny bluish -gray house sitting down close and the share the driveway? M. Carey: Oh, okay. M. Gunn: That property sold to Linda Fenner and what is there now is 450 foot of road frontage, but there's only 2 . 3 acres. There's already two structures on the property . They wanted me to approve a building permit for them to take the remaining 150 foot of road frontage and they want to build a house on it. I told her she wouldn't be able to do it even before she puts a building permit in because she would be creating a non-conforming lot. She might have the road frontage , but she wouldn't have the one acre that the Ag District requires. G. Totman: But she also can't get to it from the road. She had to go through somebody else's property to get to it. M. Gunn: There' s quite of a high bank and stuff because of the way the highway goes up to it . They are a little bit on the disgruntled side that I said they wouldn't be able to do that. They have a possibility of -- one of the Starks - - Spaces - - bought the field behind them. My suggestion was to see if they could get some of that field and add to it. The kicker was that the two properties that are already there were existing; they are sharing a septic. Is there anything that you guys know of that says that those two properties, with one being an out-building -- because they are sharing common septic and well - - could that be considered , one, either the single-wide or the house , be considered an outbuilding? CO Twigg: That house has been an out-building for quite awhile . G. Totman: No, I don't think so . When Mark talked to me the first time about it, his concern was that she didn't have access to it from the road . Because there's a bank there . Our rules and regulations say you've got to have so much road frontage . CO Twigg: It's got to be useable property. M. Gunn: If they want to build on it with one acre, they have to have -- it's got to be useable . They have to be able to fit the 150-foot radius circle for the septic. G. Totman: What I was getting at it, we don' t tell them where they have to have their driveway . We tell them they've got to have 150 feet of road frontage . Now if they don't use that 150 feet of road frontage, and I know this doesn't make a lot of sense , but I don't find it anywhere -- like , for example , if we turned her down and she took us to a court or got an Article 78, or whatever, there's nowhere in our Ordinance that says that in the 150 foot of road frontage you've got to use that for a driveway. She could make a deal and get a ROW through the other property to get to her property, as long as she's got -- what she's got, if she had an acre of land , what she's got would be 150 foot of road frontage, an acre of land. Sure she says if I tear the bank away I can put a driveway up here, but why should I do that when my neighbor will let me drive up through there and use their driveway. I don't think, and I think I told Mark this, that we can turn her down for that reason . But you didn't tell me she didn't have an acre of land . M. Gunn: It's all in how we interpret it. I talked to Lyle Raymond about it. Because the other property is existing, is sharing a common septic, sharing a common well , is there a way for them to construe one of those two structures that are already there as being an out-building? G. Totman: Well I assumed she was going to make that a separate lot. M. Gunn: See , they're renting is what it is . They're putting places up and renting them. Page 12 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 G. Totman: If they're not going to make that a separate lot, that puts three building units on one land and that's not allowed in our Ordinance . That would have to go to the ZBA. M. Gunn: But she would be able to section off one acre, so what it's going to do is leave a non - conforming -- G. Totman: Can't do that. M. Gunn: Right, G. Totman: If she can get more land so she's got an acre, and then make that a separate lot, she could still rent the house out. M. Gunn: That's what I told her she could do. But what I 'm asking is am I right because I told her she needed an acre per structure to have a lot. And Lyle thought there might have been the possibility that maybe she could have considered because they share common well/common septic - - G. Totman: That would be up to the ZBA to make that determination, not us. M. Gunn: Well, that's kind of what I said. I said -- G. Totman: He can say no to her because he can't fit it in unless she does this or this. I told her i f she doesn't want to do that, he can help her make the application out for the variance and let them decide what they want to do with it. M. Gunn: I called her back -- they came and bought the book and took it back. And I called them up and had a discussion with Peg P) ; I didn't want her to come in and put in a building permit for $ 150 or $ 175 for a house full well knowing I was going to turn it down . So I called them back and went over the book with a fine-toothed comb with them and told them that this is the way I feel about it; you can put the building in there if you want, but you're going to have to go for a variance . G. Totman: I think you've got to put the building permit in and you reject it to go for a variance , isn't it? M. Gunn: Right, and that's what I told her. But it's going to be up to them whether you want to pay -- I didn't want them coming back on me saying we just paid $ 150 for a permit and you knew you were going to turn it down. G. Totman: They make the application out. You look at it and turn it down, you don't accept their $ 150. M. Gunn: Yes. I don't get that building permit until it's paid for up front . G. Totman: If I were her, I 'd get my lawyer. M. Gunn: It's non-refundable . That's why I gave them the courtesy call and said G. Totman: It's non-refundable . Why do you accept it in the first place if you're not going to pass it ? M. Gunn: That's why I called them - - to tell them not to bring it in . G. Totman: If they don't have your refusal , how are they going to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals? M. Gunn. Well, they're not going to unless they want to take the chance of the money. G. Totman: I don't follow that. I don't think it's legal to do it that way . Page 13 of 15 Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 M. Gunn: Well I'm not here. It comes through the Clerk's Office out front, the Town Clerk' s Office . It' s paid for. It then comes to me. I can' t take it and then say I approve it, now give me the money. I've already worked on the project. Where's my fee come from? The fee has to be paid for me to do my job to whether approve it or disapprove it. G. Totman: Well, it's not up to us to make those laws. It's up to the Town Board . I don't do it that way. I couldn't do that to people; I just could not. If I know I'm going to -- I would tell my clerk, don' t cash the check until I approve it, and then they can give them the check back. It's as simple as that. I do that all the time . M. Gunn: They've got a system where they said once it goes in the system, it's in the system . They can't take it back out. G. Totman: If they cash it, yes. But if they don't put it in the system they can . M. Gunn: But they have to record it the minute it comes through that front door and goes across the counter. G. Totman: Okay. I just wouldn't want to be treated that way. M. Carey: Well, at least Mark had the courtesy to call them. Even if they had a short lot and they bought a separate property, would that have to be in the deed or something so if five years down the road both parties decide to sell -- AL Gunn: That was my point to them . G. Totman: Well , they couldn't sell it. They are making their own bed. How much do we protect people? G. Van Slyke: They'd be locking themselves in . They could get a bulldozer right in , take that bank out, and make a driveway. M. Gunn: They conceivably could take the last 150 feet of road frontage . Take a bulldozer in there, which he said he would be willing to do, and they could make the one acre and the Health Department told them they'd give them the septic for that other acre . But in doing that they would be creating a non-conforming lot with two structures and only -- G. Totman: Well, unless they bought the land off of Space. M. Gunn: Right. But until they do that, -- G. Totman. I think it's a ZBA case if they don't want to buy the lot . If they buy the lot, then it's a boundary change or a one-lot subdivision. If they buy the extra 100 feet or whatever it takes to make over an acre . G. Van Slyke: How did they get this extra lot anyway? At the auction the bought it? C. lwigg: It can't be a boundary change . - G. Totman: Well, if they buy the extra lot, that's a boundary change . Then they'd have to get a one-lot subdivision if they include that into it. This came from the Sanford Estate. The grandmother and grandfather lived in the blue house and they let their grandson put a trailer up on the bank just above their house. And then the grandmother and grandfather died, and the grandson who put this nice trailer with a porch and deck on it decides he wants to sell the whole thing. So he sells the house , his trailer, and the land that goes with it. This land that he's talking about is sort of on the east side of the house. It's got a bank down in front of it, and it' s not quite an acre of land if they wanted to separate it out. And if they did want to separate it out as an acre , there wouldn' t be enough left for the Page 14 of 15 • Town of Groton Planning Board Meeting Minutes/Transcript 17 June 1999 other two parcels at an acre apiece . So what he's got to do is buy some land in back to get an acre and make it a one-lot subdivision . Then he's all set to do whatever he wants to do. Otherwise, go to the ZBA and get a variance . M. Gunn: Well, in the midst of all this we had an attorney call up and order a Land Use Ordinance. I think he's working for them and he's asking a lot more questions. I'd be worried if I charged them the $ 150 for the building permit and then turned it down. G. Totman: Well, if I have any doubts -- see, I've got two right now that I 'm saving because I don' t think I can pass them. I just don't give the check to the clerk. I tell her to leave the checks there until I look them over to see if they are okay. If they are okay, we take the check. If I've got a question, then I hold the check up . C. Twigg: But he don't get the check like you do . Adjournment G. Totman: Is there any other business to come before the Board? (No one responded. ) G. Van Slyke: I 'll make a motion we adjourn this meeting . S. Clark: I 'll second it. G. Totman: All those in favor? (All members indicated they were in favor. ) The meeting was adjourned at 8@36 p.m. 0 ee E . Fitch cording Secretary Page 15 of 15